Thank you for your response. This only reinforces my belief that atrocious behavior is a human condition. Not a condition brought on by a certain religion or sect.
And the murder of one person is a tragedy. But, it happens countless times a day around the world, carried out by people of all faiths or of no faith at all.
Sadly, this kind of tragedy is the making of mankind not a religion.
If it were truly confined to religion it would be easy to rid ourselves of it.
It is a malady of all mankind and is truly a shame and a waste of time and life.
Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat always displays patience
Religions, are mostly based in Atrocious acts ... They promote Atrocities ... The Truth ... that most Personal Beliefs, are False, and thus, have to Depend on Force ... Atrocities ... for their very survival.
Thats why, the Imperative, of Following The Ordained Way of Life !
For its critical to our Salvation, that we Believe ... and Believe, Correctly ... Meaning, Believe In The Truth ... In, The unadulterated Truth ... not, logics and sciences proven, or determined fact ...
Or ... Follow, any False Prophet's Versions ... of The Ordained, Way ... Islam.
It is not that only religious people make atrocities on the fellow human beings; those who don't believe in a religion also do it. Did the communists in Russia not make any atrocities?
Of course religion doesn't cause tragedies to happen and terrible things to be done. Often people will use it as an excuse to do something terrible (and then more naive believers might follow them) but though I'm an atheist, I do believe that even without religion we would not be free from human cruelty.
kinda like take the police away and see how many robberies occur. We would be no better off without police or the judicial system as we would be without religion.
Its just that without religion people aren't convicted of sinful living and neither do they have to answer the question about what will happen after death.
It isn't my distortion and had you had a lick of common sense, then you would know that. All you know how to do is pass along either misinformation or distortion.
sorry but if we compare misinformations.. mine is way closer to biblical than yours. Again i am sorry for your distortion.
On a side note- if you're admitting to passing along misinformation that is closer to biblical than me, then I appreciate the candor, and proves you understand telling people lies is to your benefit.
I enjoyed that. Much appreciated.
That is correct; religion has a definite utility for the human beings; only it should not be mis-used for killings and persecution of the human beings; things should be sorted out with peaceful dialogue and arguments which is the essence of humanity.
You are mistaken, my brother. Religion is not necessary to be able to see when one has done wrong, no, not at all. I would in fact say that without religion to muddy our vision, we can in fact see our wrongs much more clearly than otherwise.
Additionally there is no disguising them as rights, no pretending we're sheathed in any divinely granted righteousness. So that's a huge plus.
Regarding answering the question of what happens when we die, I find the way you state it odd.
Neither do the religious. But the way you state your observation is ironic. I would suggest it is exactly that attempt which has turned eons worth of people into either liars or fools.
I've no need of religion to convict me of the wrongfulness of that. Your need of religion will forever keep you from seeing it.
well it seems strange to me that you esteem everybody to be like you. Since you know the difference between right and wrong then good for you and you obviously choose the good. BUT there is a large part of society that does not choose the good and recall that living in a world of violence would soon make people under the guise of protecting themselves, players in that field.
Remember it is only a good set of circumstances that make people ABLE to choose the good. If ones life were to come crashing down many good people would be choosing the bad to make their lives good again. Self righteousness is like this, it comes from self. If the self were to be starving one might soon believe that stealing bread were not stealing at all, just trying to survive. In this the self becomes a liar, resting comfy in a surrounding of things that it needs, were it one day to become greedy or think another does not deserve to have this or that, it might think the good thing is to off the other and take the stuff - were there no consequences to follow, like arrest and jail.
recall also before the flood. There were two camps, so to speak. the sons of God and the daughters of men. Those that worshiped God and those that did not. Eventually the good became polluted to the point where only noah and his family were spared. This all happened at a time where policing was not a common occurrence.
Origins of policing (fyi)
The origin of the British police lies in early tribal history and is based on customs for securing order through the medium of appointed representatives. In effect, the people were the police. The Saxons brought this system to England and improved and developed the organisation. This entailed the division of the people into groups of ten, called "tythings", with a tything-man as representative of each; and into larger groups, each of ten tythings, under a "hundred-man" who was responsible to the Shire-reeve, or Sheriff, of the County.
The tything-man system, after contact with Norman feudalism, changed considerably but was not wholly destroyed. In time the tything-man became the parish constable and the Shire-reeve the Justice of the Peace, to whom the parish constable was responsible. This system, which became widely established in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, comprised, generally, one unarmed able-bodied citizen in each parish, who was appointed or elected annually to serve for a year unpaid, as parish constable. He worked in co-operation with the local Justices in securing observance of laws and maintaining order. In addition, in the towns, responsibility for the maintenance of order was conferred on the guilds and, later, on other specified groups of citizens, and these supplied bodies of paid men, known as "The Watch", for guarding the gates and patrolling the streets at night.
Historic officer In the eighteenth century came the beginnings of immense social and economic changes and the consequent movement of the population to the towns. The parish constable and "Watch" systems failed completely and the impotence of the law-enforcement machinery was a serious menace. Conditions became intolerable and led to the formation of the "New Police".
The Metropolitan Police
In 1829, when Sir Robert Peel was Home Secretary, the first Metropolitan Police Act was passed and the Metropolitan Police Force was established. This new force superseded the local Watch in the London area but the City of London was not covered. Even within the Metropolitan Police District there still remained certain police establishments, organized during the eighteenth century, outside the control of the Metropolitan Police Office.
Indeed, it seems strange to me that you esteem religion as controlling sin and violence. I would have you take a look around.
Of course, I understand your position. You must maintain that it's the current debauched state of society counter-acting against the forces of good and all, but honestly I don't buy it. Sin has always been around, and violence and greed and poverty and suffering. To therefore conclude when looking at our history that religion really controls the masses in a good way is just very blind.
I do agree that religion CAN have a positive effect on people, but as we can all see that any system really would do, and does, there's then no sense in thinking it is religion specifically which accomplishes this. We may as well say it is any system, any given set of rules, that offers humanity some direction and hope.
As reasoning skills advanced, as we all learned to read for ourselves, as the lines of communication between various peoples opened up, the given systems prove flawed and deceptive, false, senseless, and corrosive. For the modern widely-learned man, and anyone exposed well enough to logic and the details of religion whose brain hasn't already passed the point of no return, there can be no hope in a false system.
Finding they've been lied to and cheated all these years -- and still continue to be -- can be hard on a society. There will be discord until the rule of the false over the reign of the free is thrown off.
Anywhere there was ever a group of people living together there was some form of policing going on. The very obvious fact that whatever factor was in control would have controlled such policing efforts is really no surprise. It was a nice story though.
i just noticed that you actually left God out of the equation.
reliigous systems do not work. Catholicism is a good example of that.
I would like to add that the spiritual walk of God in Christ Jesus is just that. It is a walk with God included. One of the main points that God tries to make plain knowledge with every christian is that is NOT by the persons strength or by their own power or even by their good works that make the spiritual journey possible. It is God in us that makes living the christian experience successful. God indeed gives a spark of his essense to every christian during the salvation process and as we align ourselves with Him, less of us and more of Him takes up room within us. This is why prayer is important. Lets clarify that prayer is not always on the knees in deep remorse, repenting from a sin activity but prayer by definition means to ask, to talk or in modern day lingo, chat. God typically asks us to stop trying to earn our way to heaven but rather to just communicate with Him and lean on Him for the strength to live a christian life.
I will not go into detail about why many christians fail to do so, indeed to point fingers at people who are learning is like condemning someone for not speaking a foreign language excellently while they are still in classes.
in jewish times, two or three witnesses were needed to prosecute someone. In other nations i assume since 411 was not readily available and many tribes distant from each other... well lets just say, before the world was called civilized, it was very uncivilized.
I thought it was an interesting story, and although used as a type which leads us to wonder about other nations, actual policing in what is considered civilized england did not formally occur in an efficient capacity, until late in history. People take advantage where policing is not prevalent. I am reminded about the houses that got broken into during the winter months on the island of Gabriola while the occupants were vacationing in a warmer climate. We can in no way compare our system today to 2,000 or 4,000 yrs ago and certainly not more.
Also i am not talking about controlling the masses. Not everybody studies the bible and not everybody is christian. But in individual lives there is always a difference made. I have no blinders on but i make no assumptions about the good nature of sinful humankind. As i said before it is only a good set of circumstances that allow people the choice between stealing and not stealing. If the wife were not sickly unto death the husband may not have been consoled by the hottie next door into adultery. Wallets may be returned unrobbed after being found, depending on the amount of money inside. etc.
talk about lies and cheated to all these years. I have learned there is no help in society, all things rust and corrupt and theives can steal or breakage. Everything is temporary even that cool car i had as a teenager i no longer possess. That sin, however pleasant it is never fulfills and leads the person into a wanton state seeking satisfaction that can only sooth for a short time. In many cases as with sexual sins.. its starts off with masterbation, toys, a partner (somewhere porn shows up, maybe handcuffs and ropes) then two partners, then orgies (if an orgy can be found) soft drugs lead to hard drugs and occasional use to frequent, and adrenalin sports leads to more treacherous exploits. You may be okay yourself and lead a cozy life, but lets not forget the earth is the way it is because people are all not like you. If you do not understand human nature outside of yourself, perhaps a visit to somewhere less fortunate that yourself may be in order. Other countries are very different indeed we are blessed materially in North america.
we could banter this around for ages, going back and forth but i just keep repeating myself. Good luck with this. Brotheryochanan over and out.
I can only imagine that the society you refer is contained within the walls of a prison as that claim is as far from reality as can be with societies in general. It is in fact a very small minority of societies that choose to be bad.
I cannot imagine what you are trying to say and i will not bother to contemplate it.
that fact that you try to imagine what i am talking about and come up with that... gets you
a sound of a buzzer
and a thanks for playing
It's a very simple concept to understand. You believe most people have chosen to be bad, which is entirely opposite from reality.
So sorry you can't imagine such a world that is in fact right in front of you and choose to imagine another.
sound of buzzer again
yes the world is in tip top rosy condition. All is working well and the systems of man are fair. There is no crime problem. You have never been ripped off by someone or known a person of a shady reputation. You open your newspaper and it says: "well nothing to report here folks, all is well again as usual". You journey to the bronks in NY and other despot places around the globe.. you see the fighting in africa, the starvation of india and other bad things but your rose colored glasses only show what you need to say to report, falsely of course... that all is well in the world and all the players are playing fair. Every politician is not lying and doing their best for the world at large.
I am sorry you cannot see what is right in front of you. Grab a paper one day, there are even some online.
The reason you say i choose to imagine another is just because you want to refute, feebly, what i say.
When you get off the mat on this one, feel free to say nothing.
No one said we live in a perfect world and that we don't have our problems. That doesn't mean in the least the the vast majority of people choose to be bad.
Praying to your god won't make it any better, either. All that manages to accomplish is believers who pass the burden of responsibility onto their imaginary gods.
And, they would all agree with me and not you. As you can see, there aren't billions of reports of people doing bad things every day, are there? But instead, we find just a small minority of people doing bad things.
Starving in India? Are you saying the vast majority of India's population have chosen to be bad, hence they are starving?
That is the epitome of denial, sir.
Or more precisely, it is what I observe from you.
sound of the buzzer again
inspite that you think the newspapers report everything that is bad i will inform you they do not. There is more bad than just in the papers but i gave that to you as a reference which seemingly through you on a wrong course again.
I have to touch on the india thing again because you misconstrued my intent about that. On second thought I am not going to bother, suffice it to say the buzzer has sounded again
if i thought you were capable of understanding any post at any time i would continue dialogue with you. If i thought you capable of posting anything that resembled truth at any time i might consider it not a waste of time trying to convey anything to you.
I do not.
LOL! So, the fact that something bad has occurred but has never been reported is an event revealed to you alone? And, so many billions of bad things are occurring daily because the vast majority of people choose to do bad things, you alone have been given this information to share with us all?
Perhaps, with all those buzzers going off in your head, it has made it impossible for you to explain yourself? Or, is it such that you simply are unable to explain yourself without opening a can of contradictory worms? I would suspect the latter.
Yes, that appears to be the standard template for believers who find themselves at a loss of words and are compelled to personally insult others rather than reflect on their own intellectual capabilities, or lack thereof.
Human being do err; hence the Message is revived so that they come to the right path.
I do not believe that all crime and violence can be traced back to religion.
I do, however, believe that the effects of religion have a trickle down quality about them which ends up negatively touching much more of our everyday lives than may at first seem obvious, especially to the partial.
Religion has a definite utility for the human beings; only it should not be mis-used for killings and persecution of the human beings; things should be sorted out with peaceful dialogue and arguments which is the essence of humanity.
Man needs peace for spiritual and temporal progress.
"It is in fact a very small minority of societies that choose to be bad." And they usually run the governments.
ATROCITIES ARE CAUSED BY SIN BECAUSE HUMANS LIKE THINGS THAT ARE SINFUL, IT IS SIMPLE AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE WE ALL UNDERSTAND TEMPTATION AND ITD CONSEQUENCES, THE CHOICE IS THE INDIVIDUALS. you can choose an apple or a pear, it is the same with atrocities you can choose helping a person or hurting them it cmes down to what you like.
Atrocious behavior is a human condition. It is not a condition brought only by a certain religion or sect; it is a sort of spiritual disease; susceptible to religious or atheists alike.
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