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What was god thinking?

  1. topgunjager profile image61
    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago

    What was god expecting to happen when he put the tree of knowledge with an obviously ignorant and naive adam and eve in the garden of eden? Telling them not to touch it and punishing them so harshly when they did. It's like putting your children up for adoption for eating a cake you left on the table after you told them not to.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is one of those "Ahhh - so it is all BS" points. The religious people will avoid it like a plague of locusts.

      Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil or between "right" and "wrong" - so were incapable of determining what they were doing was "wrong."

      Which means - what they (and we apparently) are actually being punished for is not doing wot god sed.

      This is the root of their religion. sad

      1. 0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No, they won't avoid the question. I think the point of the story is that, with self awareness comes a host of problems. Ignorance is bliss, but not the fate of man. We were destined to have or eyes opened, unlike the other animals. No way around our curiosity.

        I could, of course, be wrong.

        1. Fire10 profile image60
          Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'm with just_curious.  It was the fate of man, it was - in my opinion - what God knew would happen.  He had this plan figured out - but man had to make the choice to get it all started - to bring hurt, difficulty, and real joy in the world.  There were actual, natural consequences to their choices, not some unnatural application of some unnatural punishment.  So here we all are with a knowledge of good and evil with many of us wishing they didn't know any better than what they're choosing.

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Unfortunately, any that deny God's existence will scoff at your statement. The sad thing is, since they throw Him out of the equation they fail to accept that it is by our actions, as a species, that the consequences are looming precariously before us.  They blame religion for all the bad on the world, when the simply fact is; the problem is man. Woman, of course, is not included in this indictment. smile

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              To me it is a story told to children and adults around he camp fire which like so many other stories of myth, a metaphor. Natives tell tales of how the snake lost it's legs or how the loon got it's white collar. But this one was a metaphor about how man kind became a conscious self aware  being.

              It also told us how the snake lost it's legs, but didn't tell us how it lost it's ability to speak.  Never mind.

              It also tells us of the double edged sword awareness is. Particularly that of good and evil. In a sense telling us ignorance is bliss, and if had remained ignorant we could have stayed in paradise,  blissfully unaware of our impending death.

              The punishments dealt out are the facts of life so no stretch there. Woman have hard labors, and traditionally men break their backs in toil and often die young.  Oh yes, and snakes no longer have legs and slither on ground.

              The story isn't very uplifting and paints a bleak picture for man kind. Had we not been so stupid as to forget to eat of that tree of ever lasting life first, none of this would happening. According to the god of that time we would have been gods, to know good and evil AND to be immortal.

              What a sniveling fool Adam was to blame his wife. What an idiot to not have eaten from the tree that was not forbidden before took both away.

              But it very clear that the god in this case did not want us to be like him even though he was the one who planted the trees there. And it all seems to come as a shock to him. It's a very different god than the one Christians believe in today.

              But what bothers me a bit is that Christianity takes this all to mean god gave us free will. It appears that if free will is the knowledge of good and evil, that he didn't give it to us. We took it.

              And yet I can't help noticing that free will is never mentioned in the old testament as something given by god. I also don't see how just the knowledge of good and evil could give you free will.

              Calvinists don't believe in free will, and they are Christians too.

              It is certain that we all have will. But the word free seems to be an illogical concept in that context.   

              Still, it's a fun old myth. If nothing else it tells us about the minds of our primitive ancestors. wink

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes. Primitive ancestors attempting to put creation and humanity into perspective. Of course the story seems simplistic to us. To them it probably explained it all quite nicely.

                The point I was so poorly trying to make is that the lesson is a good one, but when the word God is used when pointing anything out people tend to shut out anything of value the person speaking might have said. smile

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm sure you can make it very well. So in what way is it a good lesson?

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I thought he made it in the post I replied to. There are consequences to our actions. Natural consequences. Not supernatural ones. You reap what you sow, so to speak.

                    I was thinking on a world wide level though. when I replied to his post. Say God and everyone stops talking and pointing fingers. We're going to reap what we've all sown together.

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        According to Mark Knowles lol

        Sorry God didnt put you on the throne.

    2. 70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It is wrongly understood to mean a tree of apple or anyother physical tree; tree of knowledge is never like that; knowledge is never physical so the tree of knowledge has to be a important code of revelations as to what to do and what not to do for the preservation of life and progress of human beings.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's interesting. hmm

        Adam & Eve were physical beings, tending to a physical garden, with physical trees.
        Eve took a physical apple and ate, and gave some of the same physical apple to Adam, who also ATE.

        Maybe Adam & Eve were just metaphorical imaginary people. I don't know?
        hmm hmm hmm You seem to know the Bible better that any Christian. hmm hmm hmm

        1. 70
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Christians mostly hear the Bible from the priest reading on the pulpit; instead of reading it themeslves and reflecting intently.

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That's Not Me.

            Please clarify about Adam & Eve.

            What does the Korn say?

    3. pisean282311 profile image57
      pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      @ts you just enter no entry zone...if digged deeper the story revealed true nature of god which gets pleasure by fooling people and loves to punish...over grown child =god...dont take god too seriously...

    4. Dave Mathews profile image59
      Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      topgunjager: God had just created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden. God's only instruction was to stay away from the one tree, and he even warned them that should they touch the fruit let alone eat the fruit that they would die.

      We have to assume that they must be able to understand and reason, otherwise God would be wasting his breath telling them anything. We have to assume that they understood what the word death meant and understood that there was some serious harmful danger.

      If we cannot assume any of this, then we must assume that they were totally ignorant of what God was saying, which is not evident as to how we read about how she responded to the serpent.

      Lucifer the serpent, declared himself to be as knowledgable and as smart as God, this was his downfall, he used trickery to convince other angels that he was as smart as God causing their downfall, so it was easy for him to cunningly tempt one of God's new creations to doubt what God had said and go against God, by simply twisting the truth just slightly.

      Had Eve not been approached by the serpent, there would have been no temptation and no disobedience.

      1. topgunjager profile image61
        topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        As naïve as they were, why would god punish them so harshly for getting tricked? I am having a hard time finding the moral of this story. I like to call this story kicking your children out of your house forever for not listening. I thought god was all merciful, forgiving, just, fair and loving, where do all of these traits found in this story?

        1. Fire10 profile image60
          Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It's the 'just' part.  Call it naive that they didn't really know what the consequences would be, but God commanded them - and they knew that God commanded them - and they obviously knew God.  So in terms of not listening to God - like Mark likes to mention - they knew sooo much better than anybody posting on this message board does and still 'didn't do what he said'.  So - I think it would be understandable and perfectly just to kick them out...

          But forever...  I've never thought that at all.  That is why Jesus Christ was chosen and sent.  So that people who actually prefer God over evil - and those who prefer evil over God - can get exactly what they want.

          If people want evil - they can have it - they just can't have God at the same time.  With time everybody makes their desires and priorities perfectly clear.  In the end, everybody gets what they want.

          He's loving, merciful, and forgiving for those who REALLY want those things from Him.  If one doesn't want those things, they won't get them.  If you want something other than those things then you (anyone) can pitch a fit about that God isn't fair... but the reality isn't that he doesn't want you - it'd just be that you didn't want Him, his love, his mercy, or his forgiveness. 

          If you want something, how is God supposed to 'save' you from it.  Duh smile

          And Sorry - that was a thorough soapbox on the general topic not solely a focused reply.  Just pretty passionate about what some people expect God to be.

          1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
            Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Fire, Good point.

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Tell your 2 year old not to touch the bleach bottle. Make it a command. It knows you, but if you the bleach bottle out it's gonna touch it. If god didn't know his creation was curious and didn't know that he should have baby-proofed the garden, he wasn't too bright.

            1. 0
              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hey Slarty. That's crazy. You can't child proof a garden. Especially one as big as Eden. God appears to have been bright enough to know that. smile

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                See - if I was going to worship an Invisible Super Being - I woulda' picked a omni potent, omni present one. wink

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Wish you had. Then we could play the my God's better than your God game. It'd be more fun than arguing over this. We could show the world how to do it without arguing about it too strongly.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Perhaps you just need to pray harder? Sorry you are incapable of understanding. Those who reject the idea of there not being an Invisible, Unfathomable Super Being will always scoff.

                    This is why your religion causes so many wars.

                    Perhaps if you told us what Jesus' message really was? You think that would help? I especially liked the turning the cheek thing that you did not like.

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well let's just say he could have left out the poison fruit. Even I could do that. Would that be so hard? There was just one thing they shouldn't touch and he put it right there for them to touch. Seems odd to me. Rather like he wanted us to disobey.

                Do you leave poison plants in your yard, by the way? Probably not, eh?

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, there are a few poison plants in my yard. I would assume everyone has one or two. But I don't eat the shrubbery. You do realize this is just symbolism. You don't think a God hung out with a couple of naked people for a few thousand years do you?

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol... of course not. But perhaps you would be surprised to know how many Christians do.

              3. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Just_Curious, I am not picking...just pointing out something...If god created everything out of nothing...made man of dirt and breathed life into him...created the whole universe...I would think it would be a small thing for him to child proof a garden...

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok..once again, my sense of humor has fallen short. I do know this. I actually assume we all do, so I was just wondering why it appeared to be a point to argue. Just attempting levity. I think Christians sometimes make statements that appear to others as if they think it's a fact. I'm sure no one takes the story of the Garden of Eden as fact. It's symbolism.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ask a Baptist or Calvinist or a Born Again. Just to name a few. Ask the retards at the museum of creationism. Am I allowed to say retards here as long as I am not referring to specific people? Moderators? If not I apologize in advance.

                  2. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ahh..Humor... Sorry. I think mine is broke sometimes...LOL...

            2. Fire10 profile image60
              Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You think Adam and Eve had the mental capacity of 2 year-olds?  Foreign thought to me really.  I guess you're welcome to look at it that way - I could see why it would be an obstacle for you to make sense of the whole story/God that way.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How else would you look at mankind without self awareness or the knowledge of good and evil? Much like a small child or animal. That's all I can compare it to.

                1. Fire10 profile image60
                  Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I viewed it more like a person who has no eyes and doesn't know color.  They're not hindered in any other intellectual way - they just have no concept of color.

                  If they received their vision they'd say- hey, I see now my skin is -that color- and it is different from those colors, Adam and Eve said, Hey - I really should be wearing something here - awkward.

                  It has always made sense to me that way.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I understand. But I don't think it would be that simple. Think about not knowing what right and wrong would be like. Not being ashamed, having never been taught to be. Like any child. That's their world. They are innocents, and Adam and Eve couldn't have been anything else before they ate the metaphorical apple either. I don't see how they could be.

      2. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So - what you are saying is - they were punished for not doing wot god sed.

        Little wonder your religion causes so many wars. sad

        I thought they were innocent and unable to know about right and wrong - silly me.lol

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That all sounds logical except  for one detail. They did not know the difference between right and wrong before they ate. If they already had a self awareness then what is the point of eating a fruit that gives you that awareness?

          Right after eating it "They found themselves naked and were ashamed." That indicates they became self aware, and self-conscious. They hid from god. Now they knew they had done something wrong. So gods instructions before they ate would have been like a father telling a one year old not to play with the poison pet snake he put in his room or he would die. Obviously that is not very effective in either the real world nor the world of myth.

          Clearly the god of this story was testing it's creation and was surprised and terrified of the results. It wants obedience and nothing else. And he doesn't get it from humans. lol...

          1. Dave Mathews profile image59
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God told them that to disobey him and to eat the fruit would cause their death, so they knew.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Are you saying they knew the difference between right and wrong? They knew it was wrong to disobey god?

              They understood what death was? In a place with no death? This is making less sense all the time. sad

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Christians still don't know what death means to this very day. lol...

              2. brotheryochanan profile image62
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Of course they understood what death was. God is an excellent teacher. I cannot suppose that God would put words to them and not give the explanation. Its like me having a conversation and saying.. ubiquitously, so and so.. for example, then i would say do you understand ubiquitous? or if i were teaching a class on death there would be an adam and eve in the classroom. To say that God threw words around that adam and eve did not know is a bit silly.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You do know there was no death - right?  And they did not know the difference between good and evil - right? Have you actually read this book?

                  This would be why your religion has caused 2,000 years of conflicts. sad

                  Clearly you do not understand the meaning of "ubiquitous," either - which rather makes my point. I think you mean "ambiguous," cousin.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Did i not just answer this in my post??? people like you think you know it all but in fact, you know nothing, even your guesses are so far out in left field we would have to read it through the hubble telescope.
                    Wayyy over your head and you don't even know it.
                    This would make a good chuckle if it weren't so saddening
                    ahhh you are so tiring.

                    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ubiquitous
                    I think i have made my point.

                    The fact that you do not have room for this information does not surprise me. You can apply all that i have said to beely to yourself.

                    This is why your statements cause years of wars in hubpages.

                    and since you havent read any of my prior posts on this page, all i can give you is the sound of the buzzer.

                2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  brotheryochanan, Exactly.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    i know simple stuff.
                    and they call us 'of low intelligence' and even this is not discernible to them.

                    and thank you sister.

        2. 0
          kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          big_smile

        3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So who put the snake there and who is supposed to know all in advance? Why the surprise when they disobeyed? Why not educate them and punish the snake alone?

          And by the way, the snake her is not Satan. Do you not think god would know a snake from a fallen angel? He punishes a snake with a snake's punishment.

          The snake and tree story are much older than this Jewish yarn. They date back to the Sumerian stories of 5000 bce. The Jews never saw the snake as anything but a snake. Why do Christians want to make a fallen angel out of it?

          And secondly, no where in the old testament does it tell of Satan becoming a fallen angel. Please show me the passages that do if you think there are any

      3. Titen-Sxull profile image93
        Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The analogy I like to use is that God is like a bumbling Father leaving a loaded gun in the middle of his child's playroom and then telling them WHERE THEY CAN FIND IT. Then, rather than be more concerned about whether or not they're hurt he instead banishes them from the playroom forever for his incompetence.

      4. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What god? lol

      5. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
        Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        roll

      6. pilgrimboy profile image82
        pilgrimboyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Many things are useful in certain contexts and not useful in others.  Take for instance, sex.  It can be rewarding in a certain framework but damaging in others.  Most things are this way. 

        C.S. Lewis wrote that "Wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way...badness is only spoiled goodness...It is a real recognition of the fact that evil is a parasite, not an original thing. The powers which enable evil to carry on are powers given it by goodness. All things which enable a bad man to be effectively bad are in themselves good things - resolution, cleverness, good looks, existence itself."

        So, we can assume that there was a purpose for the tree.  It had a use.  It wasn't just put there to tempt man into sin.  Unfortunately, we are not told that use because that is not what the story is about.  The story is about sin entering into the world through taking something and using it in a way that it was not supposed to be used.

      7. 60
        mike-locksmithposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God was fininding an excuse to punish that idiot.

      8. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        I died laughing.

      9. Onusonus profile image84
        Onusonusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Adam and Eve needed to sin in order to be mortal, hence they would have lived forever without experiencing the trials of life away from God.

        The wage of sin is death. They sinned, they lived, procreated, died, and will be resurected as perfect beings upon the return of Christ.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yup - it is sounding stupider every time someone tries and explain it. wink

          1. Onusonus profile image84
            Onusonusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            About as stupid as a monkey giving birth to a man.

          2. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hey, that wasn't a nice thing to say. It's a difficult concept to explain. Not a stupid one. You should apologize, and spend the day in some sort of penance. smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Who should I apologize to? It is a stupid concept and it causes nothing but conflicts.

              The fact that you cannot understand it and need to use majik to have it make any sense is really your problem - not mine. See? This is why your beliefs always cause conflict - you have to judge others and tell them what they need to be doing.

              Perhaps you might want to consider actually doing wot jezus sed instead of constantly pointing the finger at others?

              IDK - couldn't hurt, could it? wink

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Testy testy, preacher man. Lighten up. It's Friday, or does that not mean the same thing across the great divide? Maybe you need a Friday night in Glasgow (is that where you said all the bawdy women were?) to put life in perspective. Why must you always be so serious? I wasn't serious. Of course the idea of apology would be ridiculous to you.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry. I have made you angry once again. You do live life on th edge - surely that is bad for your health.

                  But - you are right - I never apologize when I am not in the wrong. See? This is why your religion causes so many wars.

                  I 'spect Jesus is real proud. sad

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Drink some coffe Mark, or maybe not.  You seem wired a bit too tight already.  Were it not for the warlike nature of some others outside of the mindset, Christianity would be a peaceful religion, in my opinion. But I will endeavor to persevere in my journey to discover the method behind your madness.  big_smile

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                      Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Sure. It is every body else's fault. This is why your religion causes so many wars - you refuse to accept personal responsibility. sad

      10. ckelly06 profile image60
        ckelly06posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Of all the logical inconsistencies in the bible, THAT'S the one you take issue with? smile

      11. kethyjewel profile image60
        kethyjewelposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God have no need to think.

      12. goldenpath profile image81
        goldenpathposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Adam and Eve are to be honored.  They were not ignorant.  God placed Adam and Eve there because of their integrity, worthiness and understanding of the eternal plan of the human species.  They knew that they HAD to transgress the law in order for the perpetuation of the human family.  Without this transgression none of us would be here.  It's a transgression and not a sin.  There is a big difference.

      13. 0
        kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        roll

      14. Phillip Ball profile image60
        Phillip Ballposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Do you really think that God didn't know that they would eat from the tree. The serpent (Satan) didn't do anything that God didn't allow. If that were the case why did Satan have to get God's o.k. before messing with Job? Same God and Same Satan, Same rules

      15. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Life is all about choices.

        Would we all be happier walking around like clones and robots,not excercising free will?

        I chose to do y best to obey,but if I dont I accept the consequences.

        Sadly some people expect that life should have none,or blame God when they screw up.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          kiwi, Agreed. God allowed everyone to make right or wrong choices everyday. Maybe some would be happier walking around like robots. I am happy God gives us a choice to be obedient or disobedient.

          1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
            Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Dogs can be trained to be obedient but they sometimes choose not to be.

            Did god give them free will too or is it just nature?

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              God gave man the animals to rule over.

              Yes dogs can be trained by man.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Never before have I seen so much writing without a single answer to any of the questions I asked.

                People being greedy does not answer the question "where is a childs free will".

                Being able to train dogs does not answer the question "did god give them free will too".

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes a child has free will

                  (I had 3 of them)

                  An animal can be trained ,or domesticated ,so guess you could say the animal has as much will as we (humans( allow it.

    5. 0
      BunuBobuposted 5 years ago

      God can think???
      Really?
      Because all evidence points to the absence of thinking.

      1. fadedsnow profile image59
        fadedsnowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        bravo!

      2. fadedsnow profile image59
        fadedsnowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        love your statement!

    6. kess profile image61
      kessposted 5 years ago

      The mind of the false will ask but will not  understand and is expected to reach false conclusions.....

      ....otherwise it cannot remain false.

      The mind of Truth understands all things...the mind of God is the mind of Truth.

      1. thebrucebeat profile image59
        thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Isn't that the point that is being made?  That Adam and Eve did NOT have the mind of God?

        1. kess profile image61
          kessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How can the false stand in judgement would it not reach a false conclusion?

          So it then obvious that the one who passes judgment on a person's  action.. must first understand  the original purpose intended by that actions......

          Adam understood exactly the Mind of God thus he did what he did.....

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That makes him even MORE stupid for doing it!

    7. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 5 years ago

      I have a simple answer for this conundrum.

      Evolution dun it. Das y  wee lie  dis !

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        Naughty lil monkeys!

    8. wormdo profile image59
      wormdoposted 5 years ago

      Old Testament God was a huge troll. Remember that time he told a man to murder his own son and when the guy went "it breaks my heart, but I'll do it because you say so" God was just like "lol just kidding!"?

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        His name wasn't Abraham, by any chance was it?

        1. wormdo profile image59
          wormdoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, but I think after that he changed it to Screw You God.

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You need to read up on this.
            That's not how the story ends.
            I'm writing a hub on it at the moment.

            Not sure you are really in the right frame of mind to read it though. hmm
            Bit cynical, it seems to me.

            1. TahoeDoc profile image94
              TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The story where Jephthah really DOES make a burnt offering of his daughter to the "lord" in exchange for battle success is even more heartbreaking and not as well known. (Judges, chapter 11). Yes, a fulfilled blood sacrifice to God, right there in the Bible.

              1. aka-dj profile image79
                aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Ok, I read it.

                Slight difference, but a significant one.

                God did NOT ask for this sacrifice. Jephtha made a foolish vow. STUPID vow, actually, because in the Law, it was expected of men of honour to keep their vows (No mantter what). He essentially walked right into it.  It's in the Bible, just like a lot of dumb things men do.

                Just FYI, John the Baptist was beheaded by Herod in the same "foolish" way.

                As an important side issue, though VERY relevant. God would have given the Israelites victory in battle, knowing one child will die. Allowing them defeat would see hundreds/thousands dead. (among the Isrealites).

                1. TahoeDoc profile image94
                  TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You would think that an almighty god could find a way to avoid one or even, both tragedies?

                  1. aka-dj profile image79
                    aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Death is inevitable for all people.
                    I doubt that every one would be an ideal scenario.

                    I guess some things are beyond our full comprehension.

                2. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  He made a Vow to God...and if you read Numbers 30:2. Any Vow made to God must be fulfilled...If God didn't want the daughter...God could have prevented her from coming out of the door first and had a Goat or Sheep come out instead...But he didn't...So it would appear that God did want the daughter...Just a thought...seeing how God is all powerful and nothing happens unless he allows it...

                  1. TahoeDoc profile image94
                    TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Exactly what I was getting at. Thank you.

                    1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Anytime.

                  2. aka-dj profile image79
                    aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Point taken.
                    Maybe his dog was ALWAYS the first thing through the door.
                    He figured, what the heck, it's only a dog, right.

                    What do you recon the lesson is for us, who have the benefit of hindsight?

                    1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Never make a Vow on a whim. Know and understand what you are asking for and know and understand the price you are willing to pay to get what you are asking for.

                    2. TahoeDoc profile image94
                      TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      "What do you recon the lesson is for us, who have the benefit of hindsight?"

                      Don't believe everything you read big_smile

                      It's the same lesson I take away from all the bible stories.

    9. 60
      fatech2008posted 5 years ago

      oh, I do not know, you knows?

    10. knolyourself profile image60
      knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

      Which came first Eve or the serpent?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        One could not exist without the other. wink

    11. Woman Of Courage profile image61
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago

      Eve was tricked by the serpent, not Adam. God placed Adam as the head over his wife, and it was Adam responsibility to say no to Eve and not eat the forbidden fruit. They both knew right from wrong. It's not God's fault when they chose to sin and go against God's word. Temptation exist, but it's no excuse for anyone to give in to it. God always makes a way for a person to flee from temptation.

      1. topgunjager profile image61
        topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So how was god loving, forgiving, merciful, just and fair in this story?

        1. 0
          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          He made them clothes and allowed them to live and even made a way to redeem them back to their former glory.

          1. topgunjager profile image61
            topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            He did? God is great then.

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes God is.

        2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          topgunjager, SirDent has given a great answer to your question. I hope you have a good night.

          1. topgunjager profile image61
            topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I thought the chinese make the clothes? So punish adam and eve and the rest of humanity for something they had nothing to do with and give them a chance to redeem themselves? And why did god even put the tree in the garden? That just shows how he doesn't trust his own work, and if god was supposed to be perfect, this story alone proves he isn't real=)

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              its not a question of punishment its a question of location. All was fine inside the garden but outside the garden is a different matter entirely. In the garden was limited opportunity to sin but outside the garden, well, recall the reason for the flood. As to location.. adam and eve had babies who had babies who had babies who had babies right up to modern day.. babies born into sinful environments.
              As to the perfection of God, i think that giving us a choice is far better than being puppets or programmed robots. Indeed if God had made us different than what we are he would just be making more angels. Angels serve God perfectly but they do not love and are incapable of free choice. When an angel of the Lord was ordered to slay 180,000 humans it might have been a good time to exercise choice.. but the angel did just what he was commanded to do. God wanted something to love him and this is what has come about through choice. No parent can force his child to love them, love comes from a willing heart.

        3. mecheil profile image60
          mecheilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          if the so called bible-know-all there cannot answer, let me try. lol!
          adam and eve were given 2 commands before sin entered the scene - (1) fill the earth and subdue it. (2) do not eat or even touch the tree of knowledge. [the first command would just come as it is if humans were not to die, greatly being dependent on the second command; 2nd command was rather easier to obey because the said eden was supposedly filled with fruit-bearing trees]

          since adam and eve were not able to keep the command, jesus had to redeem the life they lost (the son of god, the perfect jesus - because no one else from the humanity was perfect, none can give the value of what was lost except the christ). the sacrifice of giving his son as ransom and means of forgiveness of sins should answer the love, forgiving, merciful thingy

          just and fair - this is a little hard. so adam and eve are gonna die, died... whatever you call it. to be fair and just with all of adam's offspring, god decided to give them chance to be able to choose not the same course that their parents have chosen (showing them what kind of calamity those people will get if they choose not to obey) - the obedient ones will in turn gain everlasting life. (whew!) of course, i'm not sure of any of these.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yeah but having your son murdered for you so you can forgive the sin of people who basically had nothing to with what Adam and Eve did, even though they did what you wanted them to sounds a bit sick to me. Doesn't it seem sick to you?

            1. mecheil profile image60
              mecheilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              it's unacceptable. i can't even get my eyes on somebody being beaten in a movie. but since god is said to be all powerful -  he can bring his son back to life - he can take that kind of sick thing.

              can we call on jesus to tell whether he gave his consent to this murder thingy, just so we can conclude a little close to what they really have in mind. and if he did, you might probably call jesus' act as sick as well. i'm afraid forefathers who gave their lives for some kinda liberty would stand up again to protest.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes but a god that is all powerful doesn't need theatrics and blood sacrifice in order to forgive. You and I can do that without the need for that kind of thing.
                If Jesus consented, which it seems according to the story he reluctantly did in the garden, then it isn't the one that is sick. He's a good son doing what his father wants.

                But most Christians think he was god himself. So if he had himself murdered then it isn't as much sick as just plain theatrics and shenanigans since he never died. But then there was no sacrifice and the better part of what Christianity is about is a lie.

                If Jesus was a man who died for a cause then there was a sacrifice even if he didn't rise from the dead and there is no god. But then Christianity is a lie.

                And finally, if he was the son of god he might have suffered a bit but didn't really sacrifice anything either. After all, he didn't die. For a god raising the dead isn't that hard. Jesus was back with dad in no time and by now he is joined by his earthly family as well. Nothing lost.  But with no sacrifice the basis of Christianity is a lie. 

                It just seems to me that looking at from the sacrifice perspective it makes no sense, and looking at it from the shear act itself it is cruel and a bit sick.

                Then there is the other aspect. Christians profit from this murder. To accept the so called gift is to condone the act. To rely on it, in fact.  It's one thing for our forefathers to fight and die for freedom, it is another to needlessly make someone suffer so you can forgive someone else.  I'd say that is immoral. If consulted I'd have to say: no, don't you dare do that and say you did it for me.

                And isn't it like putting blood on our hands? Adding more guilt and sin to us? Did he not say thou shalt not kill? Did we not kill a god that day? lol...
                It's like we had to sin in order to be forgiven for another sin.

                The entire thing doesn't add up. Christianity views this in two distinct ways. One that it was planned, some say from the beginning of time, and the other that Judas, Pilot and the Jews were to blame.

                How can they be to blame if god wanted them to do it? God is to blame. They should be sainted, shouldn't they? Jesus wasn't going to nail himself to a tree. They needed props and a mechanism.  If it was planned then they were all pawns in a game. If it wasn't planned, then again, Christianity all but falls apart.   

                There are a lot of aspects and layers to this story. But I can't see the Christian perspective on it being the right one. wink To me it is the sick and sad story of an egomaniac that needs blood and death so he can forgive.
                Jesus comes out smelling like a rose unless he is god. But god comes out looking like a monster.

            2. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              not sick. A perfect solution. The death of animals was procedure for Gods people (because there is life in the blood - this is meat and not milk so good luck with this) The death of flesh.. we as christians die to our fleshly desires and wants - see the parallel. As a final sacrifice and to end all sacrifices, God wrapped himself in flesh and killed that flesh at the same time the covering in the temple between gods place of presence, in the holy of holies and the inner court was torn from top to bottom signifying God reaching out to mankind and allowing everyone access to God directly.

        4. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          He gave us free will.

          All choices have consequences.

        5. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Loving -because he offered them everything else except that tree.
          (Good odds)

          Merciful ,because He made a way for them to survive.

          Just ,for Satan will be judged for all time ,in Gods time (not mans)

      2. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Dear me. How could they know right from wrong? They had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

        Have you even read this book? lol lol

        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          good point ...  If they didn't have any knowledge  YET .. how can their poor choice be held against them ?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Precisely. Doesn't make sense.

            They were punished for not obeying god - not for sin. This is why I despise this religion. At the root the message is -  punishment for disobedience.

            And people like WOC swallow it and fight for it without any understanding at all. Just fear of punishment. sad

            1. Jerami profile image79
              Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              BUT  ....   If and when all truth is revealed ....





                  EVERYBODY   is goina feel foolish.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No Jerami - I don't think so. All truth? lol Don't kid yourself this will be revealed.

                But - great job avoiding what I said and defending your religion despite this obvious flaw. sad

                1. Jerami profile image79
                  Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  great job at not seeing what I said and keeping in your normal reterich.   

                     There is a truth that all other "little" truth s must fit within  ...   or it aint any part of it.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well done. Let's not talk about what the thread was about and instead concentrate on this. Good job. I saw exactly what you said. You are defending your religion and claiming an unseen truth.

                    Why not stick to the discussion at hand instead?

                  2. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey Jerami, I don't think Mark believes there is an absolute, such as truth. wink

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                      Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      He most certainly does not. big_smile

                    2. Jerami profile image79
                      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      There is a such thing as absolute truth.

                         No one recognized it when and if they see it cause of all the other BS that we have become accostumed to.

              2. Cagsil profile image84
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Interesting statement. Ironic, all truth could already be known, and almost everyone wouldn't believe it anyways. lol

                1. Jerami profile image79
                  Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I have noticed that to be true ...   You are correct,


                     There is a lot of truth having been revealed ....





                      Yet there is so much B.S.  to sift through that we become cross sighted beore we distenguish  what is worth focusing upon.

              3. kethyjewel profile image60
                kethyjewelposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No I dont feel folish

            2. TahoeDoc profile image94
              TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The crime and punishment thing came up recently among "friends". They were stating that even if the bible wasn't literal, it contained good lessons about actions and consequenses. They were horrified when I told the story of Elisha and the bears (and of course, I then wrote a hub about it today).

              Children were making fun of the prophet Elisha for being bald, calling names and being mean. The 42 children were punished by being savagely torn apart by two bears.

              I will teach my children not to tease anyone, but I will not tell them that they will be dismboweled by savage animals sent by god for doing so, or that once upon a time, this was considered a reasonable punishment for this 'crime'.

              1. TahoeDoc profile image94
                TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                (oops sorry, off topic for the Adam & Eve discussion - apologies for interjecting my 'stream of consciousness'- wrong thread)

              2. topgunjager profile image61
                topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Making fun of a bald guy is a crime? And speaking of crimes, you might want to check out the book of numbers chapter 15 and tell me if the punishment fit the so called crime=)

                1. TahoeDoc profile image94
                  TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  verses 32-36? Well, they did tell him not to work on the Sabbath...

                  Pick up sticks on the sabbath, get stoned to death. What's the problem?  tongue

                  1. topgunjager profile image61
                    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Haha you're cool=)

                    1. TahoeDoc profile image94
                      TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      smile, you too. Quite a discussion you generated here. Discussion is good (usually).

            3. Woman Of Courage profile image61
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Mark, The sin was in disobeying God. By eating the fruit is an act of disobedient. I am not perfect but choose to obey God's as close as possible. I do this because I love God, not because of fear of punishment as you wrongfully stated about me.

              1. topgunjager profile image61
                topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                If you like obeying god all the time, I would like to invite you to join me every sunday and stone to death everyone we see working on that day.

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That would be considered work topgunjager.  In which case, I suppose, we would have to stone you on Monday for your transgression Somewhere around lunchtime would suit my scheudle. smile

                  1. topgunjager profile image61
                    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    According to the bible which I'm sure you read frequently, it's not work when I'm looking to punish those who doesn't obey god's will=) so let the stoning begin!!!

                    1. 0
                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      OK.  I'll take your word for it, but I can't help.  Something about letting him without sin cast the first one.  Rules me out.  Anyway, I sleep in on Sundays.  But, I know a couple of prominent nay sayers that might think it's loads of fun.  Where are those guys when you need'em?

                  2. topgunjager profile image61
                    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh and don't forget to bring your god hates fa-gs sign.

                    1. 0
                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Again, I can't help you. I've got inside info that the fundamentalists are wrong on that one too. It is not my fault they're too hard headed to get this fact..

        2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Mark, It's quite obvious that you have not read the bible, just making assumptions as usual. They did not need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to know right from wrong. Adam and Eve knew by God's word it was wrong to eat from that one particular tree. God said they could eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve chose to disobey. They decided themselves what is right and wrong instead of obeying God's word. I encourage you to read Genesis chapter 2 and chapter 3. This is where I recieved my answer in the bible. Take care.

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God told Adam not to eat from the Tree...Eve hadn't been created yet.

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I agree that Eve was not created yet. When you get a chance, read Genesis Ch: 3 verse 2-3. Eve told the serpent that they may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest you die. This revealed to me that Adam told her what God said to him concerning that specific tree.

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You will notice that it wasn't until after "Adam" ate of the tree that they realized they were naked and that they had done wrong...And I have read Genesis many times...I am reading it again now as it pertains to part of a story line that I am writing.

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Double Scorpion, I have noticed it was not until Adam ate of the tree when both of their eyes were opened. They were immediately aware and ashamed of being naked. This scripture does not state Adam and Eve wasn't aware before eating the fruit it was wrong to disobey God's word.They both made a choice to sin.

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    God never said it was a sin...he said not to eat of the tree or you would die...How did Adam or Eve even know what death was for that to even be something of a fear factor for them? Eve was not in the wrong...She was not told by God not to eat of the tree...She was told by Adam that "God said if you ate of the tree you would die" ( in theory... as this is assumed since it is not mentioned) And Eve was not placed "under" Adam until after the fact so she was not bound to obey him... Mankind was punished because Adam didn't listen to God. And Mankind was not put to death...he was given the knowledge of what death was and thus we have "Fear" being added to the mix. Also you will notice that Adam and Eve wasn't kicked out of the Garden for "sin" but because if they ate from the tree of life they would live forever.(Meaning that in Gods plan, Man was always destined to die)

          2. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Take care yourself. Watch out those contradictions don't get ya.

            So - they did know good from evil - even though they had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. lol

            You sure it is me that has not read this book?

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Oh my goodness, you are truly a master of twisting words as usual. I stated above that Adam and Eve knew it wrong before eating the forbidden fruit because of God's word. They both knew it was sinning when they disobeyed God, but they did it anyway. I am not going to waste my time repeating this while you play games.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Of course. How did they know the difference between good and evil if they had not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Makes no sense. Why waste your time? LOLOLO How brave you are. lol

                Obey or Die!

                Of course they knew right from wrong. Even though they had not eaten from the tree. lol

                You sure you read this book?

                1. Fire10 profile image60
                  Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yeah - it can be read either way - quite clever really.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No - it can only be read one way. Either they knew right from wrong already - in which case it would not matter if they ate from the tree, or they did not know right from wrong (which is what the book says) in which case this god thing is a psychopath who wants blind obedience.

                    Odd how obedience keeps coming into the discussion from the religionists like WoC.

                    1. Fire10 profile image60
                      Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I disagree completely - the beauty of it - the cleverness of it is that we will see what we expect to see.  It then becomes an open door to the willing and people who choose to believe and an invisible door to everybody else.  Rage that you don't see it, laugh at the people who believe they do, and the people who walk through it will care less.

                      If you don't want to see it, that is the point.  If you do want to see it, you - at your intelligence level - won't need anybody to explain it to you.  It is all just a matter of spirituality and the temperament of one's soul (obedience does play a role here).

                      To give the somewhat willing a place to start at from your question - the tree was placed and Adam was allowed to partake - because God doesn't want blind obedience.

                      And again - you're smart enough to figure it out or you don't want to figure it out - so if I were to explain it, it would be a waste of my effort and your intellect.

                      And I believe I know what you're seeing, your point of view is perfectly understandable and sensible.

                    2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
                      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Mark, The discussion is about Adam and Eve. That is why I keep bringing obedience into the discussion. Odd how obedience really gets under your  skin.

        3. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          tree of knowledge of good and evil... man that musta been some tree. Can you imagine a tree that contains the knowledge of good and evil... it must just zap the brain and stimulate dormant parts or increase IQ or just whoosh in a bunch of information.... smile   The problem with this story is interpretation. Its a literal snake in a literal tree with literal fruit to bite. I think we can see the obvious flaws here.
          Adam where are you? is what God said... God must have been away for a while.. of course God knew where adam was but this shows separation from adam. Why would God be separated from adam? because adam was sinning more and more as time went by. Little sins at first and then bigger sins, adam was choosing to live life the way He wanted not the way God wanted. God wanted someone to delight in Him but adam loved eve more and eve loved eve most. She made her own decision to do what she wanted and adam flowed right along. Until one day God had enough. There was too much sin and too much separation.
              Knowing good from evil is not knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of good and evil indicates experience.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            LOLOLOL

            It seems we agree cousin. This book is meaningless gibberish and it seems you have not actually read it because there is none of this stuff in there. Maybe the Mormon has got it right with the stuff he made up to add?

            I thought all sins were equal. Silly me.

            Can you give me a list of little sins progressing to big sins?

            Where is homo sexuality on this list? Is it a little sin or a big sin?

            lol

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              First adam was just happy to spend time with eve, thus putting God on a shelf so to speak.. Then eve started to 'rule the roost' so to speak taking adam from his appointed position as head of the household.. then we will end our list with outright disobedience. This is what i meant. I hoped the little to bigger sins would spin some intellectual thinking within the context and framework of my post; adam, eve the garden, yknow. But as usual you have given no thought at all and just reacted.. such a little sin but equal to other sins in Gods eyes.

              sorry that is all you gleaned from the text but according to your style it is what i expected. Shallow indeed. I will hope you put some thought into other posts you read maybe you will find the answers you need without trying to seem like the be all and end of all wisdom.

    12. brotheryochanan profile image62
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago

      well lets open the can of worms shall we.
      lets correct a few wrongs first.
      Adam had a full working language and vocabulary. God told him to name the animals and he did. This is not an ignorant person nor is it a club wielding half man half ape. Adam had knowledge of fire also. He was an excellent gardener and God taught him many others things as well.
      God did not say "do not touch the tree", eve said that. God told adam not to eat (partake) of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When adam told eve not to eat of the tree she added the bit about touching it.. adam and eves version differ a bit because eve got a second hand message of what God said to adam and adam probably emphasised the importance of not partaking of the tree when he passed on Gods message to her.

      The tree was in the midst of the garden.. why didn't God put the tree in a far off corner? out of the way? Or why did not adam kill the snake one day or interrupt eve as she was having this discussion with the serpent. The secret to this lay in the language used at the time, pictographs.
      enjoy this hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Tet-shtn-and-the-garden. In it you will find some pretty amazing answers to this most puzzling part of the holy bible.

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        brother, Very well stated.

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Oh okay. lol

      2. fadedsnow profile image59
        fadedsnowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have a few responses for you.

        1. Adam had a full working language and vocabulary? Where does it state this?

        2. This is not an ignorant person nor is it a club wielding half man half ape? Read the definition of ignorance – lack of knowledge. He didn’t know right or wrong, good or evil, and even what death was.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Genesis 2:19   And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever ADAM CALLED every living creature, that was the name thereof.
            Genesis 2:20   And Adam gave NAMES to ALL cattle, AND to the fowl of the air, AND to EVERY beast of the field; (No small chore)

          kinda hard to name animals without a working vocabulary and an understanding of some sort of phonetics. Adam discussed things with eve and God talked with adam. Kinda hard to converse with someone who doesn't understand a language or can't speak.

          Are you saying because Adam did not have nuclear fusion knowledge he was ignorant. Adam was instructed of God and had all the knowledge adam needed. This included the use of fire and he was a horticulturalist and more.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sounds to me like your book is making less and less sense cousin. Where do you make the jump from Adam naming Goats to knowing good and evil?

            And - if Adam knew good from evil - why did he need to eat the fruit to learn it? Why wasn't he already ashamed of his nakedness?

            Makes utterly no sense. They were punished for not doing wot god sed. The root of your religion.

            Have you even read this book?

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              naming goats.. lol.. perhaps the limited function of your thoughts is what has caused you to evolve like an unsavory melon. Adam did so much more than just name goats. You must be all the way to christianity 001 by now huh. To name all the animals that God brought is a large list.

              so are you saying that inside a fruit was the knowledge of good and evil. Is this like tinkerbell shaking her magic fairy dust on children and they can fly? Adam did not NEED to eat the fruit to LEARN it.. eating the fruit means: to participate. take part in, (in extreme)enjoy. Of course Adam knew what was good already. The ability to choose the good from the evil is displayed in the fact that evil was chosen. The information is there you just have to look outside the box and read in between the lines because colloquialisms and idioms and allegories and mythopoetic phrases abound in this supernatural book, but then supernatural is something you don't have room for in your limited thought patterns of laws and reality.
              sorry cuz
              better luck next time round? lol.. i guess this is like what God offers.. a one shot deal. You do or dont believe. and atheism is less than that.. you dont and cant.. one trip.. see ya... how despondant.

          2. fadedsnow profile image59
            fadedsnowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I am sorry bro, but my 2 year old can name animals. it doesn't state anywhere in the bible that ADAM has a full vocabulary. Also even if he did, it doesn't mean he wasn't ignorant. FYI the bible is clear that he was ignorant of good and evil.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              you miss the simple point that your 2 year old is not naming the animals for the first time but repeating the names already given to the animals. After 50 or so animals the naming process becomes more difficult as we dont want to repeat their names.
              Believe what you will
              even use common sense
              A full vocabulary is needed.
              The bible is not clear that adam was ignorant.
              If i tell you not to choose the fruit on that tree.. from that point onward you are not ignorant of what i have told you. Adam partook of the way eve was going because he loved eve more than God. A conscious decision on his part to cling to eve and seperate from God.
              i hope this helped.

              1. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So, how long did it take Adam to name the millions of species on the planet? How did he name the animals in Australia? How did he name all the fish and mammals living in the ocean? How did he name all the insects?

                Did he name all the dinosaurs, too?

                Have you any idea how long such a task would take?

                Common sense, indeed. lol

                1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  it doesnt say the animals of the whole world. God brought the animals to adam while he was IN the Garden.

                  doh... guess ya missed that one huh.

                  common sense INDEED

                  sound of the buzzer again
                  but keep trying... see how many buzzer sounds you can collect lol

                  1. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    One wrong and one right.

                    "So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.  The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field..."



                    lol You really should read the bible some day.

                    So, how long did it take Adam to name millions of species? lol

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      so out of the ground (of the garden of eden) God formed every beast (out of the ground of the FIELD (garden of eden) You think God formed a beast in america and then transported it to eden for adam to name? Did you also notice that sea creatures are not included. Do you think animals could wander into eden from outside and vice versa? You know little about eden.

                      sad you really should read the bible some day.

                      So how long did it take adam to name the beasts of the garden? lol

                      You really look foolish trying to opinionate about the bible.

                      sound of the buZZZZZZZZer.
                      lol
                      now go and find a life for yourself

                    2. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Dont forget the minor discrepancy in the bible as to wether man was created before animals or the other way around. The bible seems to get confused about that when rehashing the whole creation story in genesis.

              2. fadedsnow profile image59
                fadedsnowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                What bible do you read? The bible is CLEAR that ADAM and STEVE were ignorant. They had no knowledge of right/wrong or good/ evil.

    13. theseus profile image70
      theseusposted 5 years ago

      I can only assume that when God put the fruit of life there and told Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit, He was thinking that both of them will do as told.After all they are creations far superior than the lesser animals. They have the mental faculties to guide them and let them think of the consequences that would befall them should they disobey.

    14. cindyvine profile image86
      cindyvineposted 5 years ago

      Maybe God doesn't have to think, maybe God just knows.

      1. topgunjager profile image61
        topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Knows what?

    15. 0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago

      It i slike telling a child to not put a fork in a wall socket.  It will hurt you or even kill you.  Warnings are good no matter how everyone else takes them.

      Adam and Eve were warned of the conesequences and they did it anyway.

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly, When God prohibits something, it is for our own good. He knows what is best for us.

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nice to know that you apparently don't. Thank you for the insight into your life. lol

          1. brotheryochanan profile image62
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You talk of the morality of man. What man says is good to do. We talk of Gods morality, what God says is good to do. There is a huge difference between the two.
            As we well know mans morality is the LESSER of the two, becoming more and more liberal each decade with a swipe of a pen by a politician or a new show on TV. There is nothing steadfast about mans morality. As in biblical days there were countries looking to the middle east and saying.. what a lot of fighting is happening there. The same is goin on today, lots of fighting but not just in the middle east. Mankind has had two world wars, used nukes in battle and as we know the usa has made war a business. So just because your ivory tower is in perfect array please dont think that the world revolves around you. Gods rules are for everybody: the maniac killer, the politician, the general and the egotistically elite who sh_t doesnt stink.
            Thankyou for the insight into your life  smile

            in in the latter years man shall raise himself above God and laugh at the king of heaven and say "where is this God? I can govern my own self and all the things that i do shall seem pleasing in my sight".

            nebuchadnezzar
            pharoah of egypt
            walls of jericho

            to name a few.

        2. topgunjager profile image61
          topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If he knows what's best for us, why did he even put that tree in the garden?

          1. Fire10 profile image60
            Fire10posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Do you have children?

          2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
            Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey him or disobey him. If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have been like robots simply doing what they are programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be free beings, able to make their own decisions. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Don't you think it would have been a good idea to teach them right from wrong? Instead of asking for blind obedience from peopel who did not understand death? lol

              1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How do you come to the conclusion that adam and eve did not how to choose right from wrong? And how do you support your claim that adam and eve did not understand death.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Because they had not eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong.


                  There was no death - how could they understand this concept?

                  They were punished for not obeying.

                  Have you even read this book? sad

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    did you even read my post?

                    God said ye shall die.  Adam raised his hand... "whats death?" God told him.
                    do you think that God is going to put words in front of his creation without telling him the meaning? lol of course you do but this is not what happened. Genesis is an account of the garden. If you want word for word what was said and a full textual revealing, you will never have enough time to read it all. 

                    rest of your post sucks too

    16. jay_kumar_07 profile image59
      jay_kumar_07posted 5 years ago

      GOD wants to control us as like other creature.But we want independent function.Then the problem starts sweetly.Till date we are blaming god smoothly.

    17. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
      Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago

      God expected Adam and Eve to hear and listen to him.  This was before sin entered the world- they were as innocent as children.  They didn't have a sin nature, they didn't know right from wrong.  They didn't even know they were walking around buck naked in broad daylight.  They were innocent- but Satan used his words to twist what God said, and Eve- not understanding what a liar was- fell for it hook, line and sinker.  But God had given her another choice- the tree of life.  It's like our current choice: do we listen to Satan as he touts the "good" in the world, or do we listen to God and accept his Son as our savior, to gain eternal life?

      1. superwags profile image81
        superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Surely you think the snake was a mistake thought?! I mean, you'd think god would know better than that!

        1. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
          Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God didn't put the snake there.  The snake was Satan- like humans, Satan has a will of his own.  Satan was once Lucifer- an angel of music, and one of the most important angels in heaven.  Long story short, he got too big for his britches and decided he should be god instead.  A two thirds of heaven's angels fell to Hell with him when God proved him wrong.  Satan does everything he can to get in God's way, because that is his individual will.  God wanted us to love and worship him of our own volition- not just "not know any better" or "not know any other way."  He loves us, so he gave us a choice.  Just like a man who loves a woman will give her up if she loves someone else.  It's a choice.  We make them every day, because God created us with that inherent ability.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So, the choices are heaven if you love god and hell if you don't? Is there an option for "None of the Above"? If not, then it really isn't a choice at all.

            Notice that in your example, if a man does not love a woman, he does not burn for an eternity as a result. Big difference? smile

            1. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
              Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Notice you're being nit picky and avoiding the subject?  T_T  God created the universe, and everything in it down to the most minuscule grain of sand.  He deserves our worship and praise.  Everything was his from the beginning.  But Satan fell away from his side because of ridiculous, unsubstantiated pride.  God has given us a will that allows us the same thing.  He had his son, a literal part of himself, come to this earth and die for us when he hadn't committed a single sin from the day he was born-- all for the sake of saving us.  For the sake of giving us the option to be saved after the fall of Eden.

                It is our decision-- available because God gave us a will-- whether we accept his sacrifice or trample it under our feet.  Most people don't believe in the choice we have before us at all, or the think of God as "the man upstairs" or some such thing.  God is so holy that he considers hate as murder, and lust as adultery.  That God loves us, so much that he would have his son die for us-- but he still gives us the ability to choose whether or not to come to his side.

              1. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, I understand you believe in one of the many creation stories amongst the many religions that offer them. 



                Gods can die? Since when? I thought they were all-powerful and all-knowing.

                 

                What sacrifice? Gods can't die, hence there was never any sacrifice.



                That isn't holy, that's insane.

                 

                Your god couldn't have died unless you believe gods can die, if not, you must be very angry to know that. smile

                1. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
                  Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The creation story I believe in, as you put it, can be backed up by science if the scientists wouldn't continue turning a blind eye to the facts.  Ask around, and you'll find that creationist scientists are more accurate than those that believe in evolution, no matter what you're discussing.

                  No, God-- emphasis on the singular, please-- cannot die.  But his son was born of a human woman-- he came to this earth both fully God and fully man.  He was mortal, had a sin nature, etc.  He was human.  At the same time, he was still God.  The flesh he was born with on this earth, however, could be killed.

                  It is holy-- the fact that you think it's insane is what proves how different it is between God and man.  God who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient sees things very differently from the finite man, who lives barely eighty years, only fills up a tenth of his brain or so in that lifetime, and doesn't usually take the time to look beyond the end of his own nose.

                  1. topgunjager profile image61
                    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Scientists ignore facts? Interesting. So these so called creationist scientists are right about the world being 6000 years old?

                    1. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
                      Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      There are different formulas that try to calculate how old things are in the universe, but these formulas have to do a lot of guesswork.  To get the right answers, non-creationist scientists have to pretty well fudge facts.  Creantion Scientists have the most accurate formulae, but no one uses them because they're based on the "young earth" theory, which isn't possible if they want to believe in their billions-of-years evolution hypothesis.  ^^  Ken Ham is an amazing creation scientist, and I had the privilege of attending one of his seminars last summer.  I really recommend looking him up!  (if you're near Ohio, he has a creation museum up there- they say it's so big it'll take you three days to see the whole thing~ )

                  2. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Should scientists only focus on your particular creation story or should they give all creations stories the same opportunity?

                    What facts do you refer that scientists are ignoring?



                    Creation scientists claim that dinosaurs walked around with men, yet science shows from the mountains of evidence that dinosaurs went extinct millions of years before men walked the earth. How do you explain that?



                    But, as you say, "God-- emphasis on the singular, please-- cannot die" and "fully God" so you appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The flesh was obviously just a "suit of flesh" worn by a god and when the flesh died, god removed the suit. In other words, god never died and everyone was fooled into believing he did. God fooled you.



                    Yet, even though we live barely eighty years (many live longer than that) we have the intelligence to understand that hate is not murder and lust is not adultery. In fact, hate is hate, murder is murder, lust is lust and adultery is adultery. Clearly, your god never heard of a dictionary.

                    And, while you continue to perpetuate myths, please note that it is also a myth that we only use one tenth of our brains. smile

                    1. Y. Kajitaka profile image60
                      Y. Kajitakaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      As far as creationist science goes, since I'm not an expert and can't argue it extensively with you, I give you a dare- test your guts, please, if you have the will to do so- to attend an conference on it, or go to one of the creationist museums, such as the one built by Ken Ham in Ohio.  There's also  the "Answers" set of three books written by Ken Ham that can thoroughly and in essay format answer all your questions.

                      I'm terrible at science, so please don't shoot my brain this early in the morning.  (I just woke up.  XD )

                      There is ONE theory that you mentioned specifically that I know I don't like- the dinosaurs and men thing.  THEY DID walk with men.  However, this world is barely over 6,000 years old, not millions.  (the "young earth" theory is one of the main ones scientists have to ignore if they want to continue with the *hypothesis* of evolution)  Creation was approx. 4000 BC, and then the world-wide Flood (have you heard of this story?  There's a flood story in every single culture around the world, you know.) occurred c. 2300 BC.  Soon after, the oldest culture in the world emerged- the culture of the Sumerians, surrounding the Tower of Babel.  According to creation scientists, just after the flood was the ice age, in which the dinosaurs died.  In other words, we lived together, humans were killed in the world-wide flood, and whatever dinosaurs were saved on Noah's ark (you should see a realistic depiction of it's dimensions- it's ridiculously huge) died in the Ice Age soon after.

                      (And I'm thinking about it right now, so I'm answering- a tenth of our available memory storage space.)

                      I don't have a contradiction on my hands at all- I said it before.  He sent his son down to this earth, born of a virgin (also physically impossible, but with God all things are possible), both fully God AND fully man.  He took on all the aspects of man, including our sin nature- and with our sin nature comes death, because they were inherited together in the Garden.  As far as him dying, have you ever heard that God is a trinity?  Father- God, Son- Jesus, and the Holy Spirit- also commonly called the Holy Ghost.  They are three completely different entities, but all are of one mind.  The book "God and the Nations" had a very different and interesting way to illustrate this concept, if you care to research it. 

                      God the Son- Jesus- was born of Mary- a virgin.  He lived approximately 33 years on this earth, walking among men as one of them.  He lived in the same flesh, had the same struggles, was tempted as man was tempted, hurt as man hurt, and was accused of crimes he never committed by the jealous Jewish leaders, who thought his miracles and teachings a threat to their own.   Through this way, even though Christ could have denied it and proved his innocence, he allowed himself to be put in trial in a kangaroo court and convicted- simply because the crowds demanded him be crucified.  His judge, Pontius Pilate, didn't even see anything wrong about him- he merely submitted to the demands of the rioters.  He was beaten with a cat-o-ninetails (research it, and just imagine the pain) until he was barely recognizable, they mocked him as "King of the Jews", spit on him and plucked his beard out (painful and HUMILIATING of a man of this age), and still they attempted to make him carry his own cross to the hill outside of the city.  He didn't have the strength, and collapsed- a man named Simon, a Cyrenian,  was beckoned to carry it for him.  Upon the hill called Golgotha- Place of a Skull, translated- he was crucified.  The miracles that happened at his very death were proof enough for at least one centurion- he's the only one who is mentioned, but I'm sure there were others- to say "Truly this man was the Son of God."  The temple veil- a montrous, ceiling-to-floor 6-8 inch thick curtain between the temple for regular worship and the "Holy of Holies"- rent in two from top to bottom.  Here is the description as penned by Matthew, a tax collector:

                      "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graces after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."   Matt. 27:50-53

                      The reason as it was mentioned in Revelation 1:18- "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."  Jesus died as a price for all sin, and redeemed us; and he gained power over death and Hell when he took the keys from Satan in those three days he was dead.

                      And this has gotten very far away from your original topic, but I'm amused.  ^^  Did I satisfy that topic already?

    18. dkroskens profile image60
      dkroskensposted 5 years ago

      Well, let's see...the choice to have no blame, be treated like royalty, have no bad anything, and be totally oblivious to good and evil...kind of like being in a luxurious limo being toured around the most gorgeous place on the face of the Earth, with continuous perfect weather, the best of food, and no illness, no storms, no disasters, no cranky, mean, crazy people versus..."ok, you do it, you go ahead and be blamed, be poor, work for it all yourself, you know the differece so expect the natural consequences, no matter how heart breaking they are, ride in your beat up vehicle or walk, in the hurricaines and snow storms of life, get sick,starve, die, suffer,....ummm, let me see...Do I want a 5 star resort or a cardboard box I have to find to sleep in ?  God's intentions were for us to be loved and lavished in luxury, to enjoy life with Him, but if anyone prefers the "now you know good from evil.." well, that is your perogative, since choice was his way of saying, "I love and trust you" . Yet, even when we did do what He warned us not to do...He made a way out of it for us, even now.  How many of you take the punishment for your child's disobedience, after you gave them explicit instructions and warnings ?  And that is my interpretation.

    19. 60
      cobbjoe1posted 5 years ago

      My point is the opinion of the Bible. You can argue if you want, but I choose to believe all of the Bible. It is the only publication that makes since to me. We don't believe in it because we reason only through human physical terms.
      God is only understood in spiritual terms.

    20. DesignSuccessU profile image60
      DesignSuccessUposted 5 years ago

      Interesting, It might be a good subject indeed. Many people should need to be aware of it...

      http://www.designsuccessu.com/interior-design-blogs

    21. TahoeDoc profile image94
      TahoeDocposted 5 years ago

      God turned himself into his own son and then sacrificed himself to himself because that was the only way he could forgive the sins of his creation that he designed them to commit.

      It makes perfect sense. What is so hard to understand? tongue

      1. 0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That is definitely oversimplified, which of course makes it sound rather silly. Tradition and rituals had to be overturned by a radical act. To the cultures and people of that time it was revolutionary and the idea so worthy of believing on that they were willing to face heinous death instead of recanting. I can't imagine a world where sacrifice was still a part of it, or the old view of God's ways. Galatians 3: 28 sums up the vision behind the message quite nicely. Substitute  the word spirit for Christ and you might find it more palatable.

        1. topgunjager profile image61
          topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ahh the old twist the stories in the bible to make it look less stupid=)

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It isn't a twist. If you don't put things into historical perspective you can't learn the lessons of the past. Think about our secular past. There are horrible mistakes we couldn't imagine repeating today. We, hopefully, have learned lessons from history that will help us make better decisions. That's one of the messages I get from the symbolism in the scriptures. I do realize that it is not the same message being preached by the televangelists. But this does not negate the bottom line message, it simply hides it from people.

            1. topgunjager profile image61
              topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Funny how the smartest and most brilliant minds on the planet are atheists. I guess they got it wrong too. They can learn a lot from you.

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                lol maybe happiness, because it always seems in short supply for an atheist. What's your beef with people believing? I don't go around bashing other beliefs or lack there of. I don't even check out the atheist threads. Life and let life keeps me pretty happy..

                And arrogance doesn't equate to being the best and brightest. It simply makes one arrogant, and usually miserable in the process, or so it comes off to me. big_smile

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That was supposed to be live and let live. I swype. It happens. Sue me.

                  1. topgunjager profile image61
                    topgunjagerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Science is arrogant? If you say so.

                    1. 0
                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Science is not arrogant enough to believe that it is all there is of value in this world. Most people would agree with that statement. Can a scientist paint a work of art? Can they play a violin so eloquently that it brings you to tears? Do you not consider these types of genius worthy of praise? There are geniuses in every walk of life. They are the best and brightest at what they do. I consider the statement you made previously an insult to anyone who strives to better the quality of our lives, as I'm sure you would agree with if you stopped to think about it.

    22. 61
      Iconoblasterposted 5 years ago

      GP?

    23. pisean282311 profile image57
      pisean282311posted 5 years ago

      lol how would god have fun if HE doesnot play games with human...after all HE created universe , since he was getting bored and had nothing to do...

      1. brotheryochanan profile image62
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        kinda like you were when you wasted bandwidth and text, space in the thread and disc space on the server and our time with your post   smile

    24. frogtalk profile image78
      frogtalkposted 5 years ago

      You've got it wrong. Adam and Eve were innocent, but I don't think they were necessarily naive. Remember, this happened before the fall of man. Man's mind was still in a perfect state. Adam was probably smarter than the greatest philosopher or scientist of history. His mind and body were perfectly created and they were not yet tainted with sin.
      It is out of God's love that he gave man a choice. If he didn't love us he wouldn't give us a choice. Love is tough.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Not sure I agree.
        Adam was told what will happen if he partook of the tree. He did it anyway. It goes to show, that all the education in the world will not prevent people from acting on impulse, emotion and poor reasoning.
        I wouldn't call (the fall) tough love, but casting them out of the garden, yes, it was!

        1. frogtalk profile image78
          frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I totally agree that all the education in the world will not prevent people from acting on impulse, emotion, and poor reasoning.
          I was merely defending the point that it was out of love that God gave man a choice.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, that would be the view from those who have little to no education. smile

            1. frogtalk profile image78
              frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Would you mind sharing your view?

              1. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It isn't my view, it is the view of logic and reason in that the more education one has, the less likely they are to act on impulse, emotion, and poor reasoning. smile

                1. frogtalk profile image78
                  frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  yeah, I don't agree with that. I'm not trying to be difficult or sassy, but I just don't agree

                  1. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    In other words, you confirmed my point. smile

                    1. frogtalk profile image78
                      frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      explanation please smile how did I confirm that?

            2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So youre also saying that educated people dont commit crime?

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Educated people dont get caught smile

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  They do ,they just can afford better lawyers...

                  1. earnestshub profile image87
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol true! lol

              2. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You may actually notice having read through my posts that I said nothing of the sort.

                Of course, we can look at criminal statistics if you wish and see if your question merits value?

                Unfortunately, you may very well find out that only a small percentage of criminals have any brains. smile

              3. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hmm....

                I know often people confuse education, with intelligence.

                They are not the same thing.

                Many people recieve an education and still know very little.

                1. Beelzedad profile image60
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Had you received an education or exhibited intelligence, you probably wouldn't say that. smile

      2. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
        Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Before adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil am I right to assume he had no knowledge of good and evil?

        If so, then how was he to know that disobeying god was a sin? He didnt even know what evil was.

        Would you punish a child for doing something that he didnt know was wrong? Thats what god did.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          He  was told, that if he ate, "in the same day, he would die".
          Pretty clear.
          He may not have known what die was, but it was obviously and undesirable.

          Your analogy of a child is poor. People today are warned all the time not to smoke, take drugs etc. Do they?
          It's not punishment, it's consequence!

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And, did Adam die? You did say it was pretty clear what would happen to him, right?

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Define death, and you get your answer.

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
                Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                dj, They just want to argue.

              2. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Death defined would show Adam did not die as proclaimed by his god, hence his god lied to him. Typical god. smile

          2. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
            Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Saying that it is consequence and not punishment does not make it sound any better.

            He didnt know he was doing wrong, and god knew that yet he still punished him / imposed "consequences" upon him

            "on that day, shall surely die"

            God lied there didnt he? He lived for 900 years after.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Adam hid from God ,why if he didnt know he did wrong?

              (We are more familiar with the word conscience).

              Adam and Eve now felt embarassed over their nakedness, why?
              (because they had lost their innocence)..

              They disobeyed, and to simplify it somewhat, God instigated Plan B. A plan that would discipline the sin AND provide a way back for mankind restore the trust and relationship with God.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Adam hid and felt ashamed of being naked AFTER he ate from the tree. I am talking about before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he had no knowledge of good and evil and therefore did not know it was wrong to disobey god because he had no knowledge of evil or sin.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  God told Adam not to do something.

                  Adam had always trusted God until then.

                  Adam decided to listen to Satan (serpent),disregard the earlier conversation he'd had with God and found out the consequences.

                  Im guessing here ,but Id say Adam felt it was unfair too ,but he knew God ,and he accepted the consequences.

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes but he didnt know that disobeying god was wrong so why punish him?

                    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Oh wow,how would that excuse go down in the law courts today

              2. Woman Of Courage profile image61
                Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                That's a good question kiwi. God would not have told them to not eat of the tree if they didn't know right from wrong.

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If they already knew right from wrong then what did they gain from eating from the tree of knowledge?

                  Nothing?

                  Are you saying they had the knowledge all along?

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The greatest gift God offered man was the gift of 'free will'

                    If he only offered Himself and insisted man serve Him like robots,never questioning anything ,mindlessly nodding 'yes' to every instance..where is the free will in that.

                    Everyday we make choices.
                    To lie or not lie
                    To love or hate
                    To curse or bless
                    To yell insults or turn away

                    To serve God or serve ourselves

                    To follow God or follow man.

                    To obey or disobey

                    ( I cant wait to meet Adam,and ask him what was it really like to walk and talk with God then lose it all)...Reckon he's say
                    Separation sucks wink

                    1. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
                      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Im surprised you never came up with the free will argument earlier. Of course there are many questions to counter that.

                      Where was the free will of all the people god drowned in the flood? Im sure it wasnt their will to be drowned.

                      Where is the free will if a rape or murder victim?

                      Where is the free will of a baby born with terminal cancer?

                      Where is the free will of an ethiopian child born into poverty who doesnt get enough food to live past his first birthday?

                      Where is the free will of free willy?

                    2. Beelzedad profile image60
                      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      That isn't free will at all, neither is telling man to do those things or else burn for an eternity. Hence, god commands you to be those robots, or else. That is not a choice, that is a threat, by definition. smile

        2. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Fortunately, it is all a load of old cobblers anyway. smile

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe so.
            But since Adam died, our days are numbered.
            Aim for 100. big_smile
            Not many get past that! smile

    25. Disappearinghead profile image89
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago

      I'm going to make myself very unpopular with the fundies here, so hey pour on the petrol and light the match, I don't care.

      Why does God present Himself as our Father? Earthly fathers understand their relationships with their children, and so we can then understand how God deals with man. Simples. Unfortunatley, the church has largely ignored this profound parable.

      God creates Adam and Eve, and though they have adult bodies, they have the minds of children (they have just been created = born). My small children are totally incapable of looking after themselves so I have to attend to their every need and largely think for them. So God places A&E in a garden where everything is provided for them, and they don't have to think or worry about anything. It's my job to train up my kids over the years to think for themselves, to make their own way in life, and to carry the responsibilities of their own actions. They need to grow up. A&E also needed in time to grow up. My children for the first 3 years had no concept of right and wrong, good and evil. A&E had no concept of right and wrong, good and evil.

      I will tell my kids not to do something and at some point they will start to think for themselves, have an inner conversation about whether to do what I say or do what they want to do. This is a good thing. So God sets A&E a test, don't eat from that tree. At some point Eve thinks for herself, has an inner conflict. The bible calls it a talking snake, Jews call it Yetzer Hara (evil inclination), the church calls it Satan. Now they eat the fruit and become aware of good and evil. They have reached a new level of maturity just as God expected.

      A&E could never have stayed in the Garden for an eternity. They would never have matured, grown up, reached their potential, become like God. They would have become indolent and lazy, just like twenty something adults still living with mum and dad in the familly home. The aledged snake (read Eve having an inner conversation with herself) said "you will be like God". Well hello, isn't that what God wanted all along? "Let's make man in our image", "now man is like us knowing good and evil", "we are to have the mind of Christ" - as Paul puts it. So God throws them out of the garden as good parents must throw their adult children out of the familly home, and tells Adam to work the soil, etc. Why because hard work is good for man, it builds character, maturity and responsibility.

      Fall of man? No. The term doesn't appear anywhere in scripture. A&E growing up as our children must, yes.

      What about the sin then? Sin is disobedience, and so they did sin yes. However this was always a hazard that God was prepared for. It was inevitable that A&E with their own free wills would one day choose to disobey. But the reward for God was mankind would now love Him out of choice, knowing good and evil might choose good. Man was not created perfectly in God's image. To be in His image takes time and growth and is not possilbe without knowledge of good and evil, and is not possible as long as we remain like children.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have no fuel, nor do I have a match. smile

    26. s82a84 profile image60
      s82a84posted 5 years ago

      God gave us a "FREE WILL" which means we have a choice to make to do the right or wrong. Adam & Eve committed the sin because a satan deceived them, and because of that we all sin and we are the one that brought sin to this world. God has nothing to with whole playing games/manipulating people on earth.

      When something bad happens, we all blame God. God isn't the blame here.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image89
        Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Adam and Eve did sin yes, but there was no satanic deception. This character the church called satan doesn't even appear in the story. You think the snake was satan because some 4th century Catholic doctrine tells you it was.

        We all sin because we all grow up, begin to think for ourselves, and will ultimately choose to do that which is contrary to God's expectations.

        If as the psalmist says that God has knit us together in the womb and we are fearfully and wonderfully made, where exactly does the sin come in? If children are a gift from god, are made by Him, how can that which comes from God be sinful or born in sin?

        God has a conversation with Cain who is bemoaning his unacceptable sacrifice. God tells him sin is crouching at the door but he must rule over it. So there you are, sin has no innate power over man, man can choose to sin or not to sin, there is no original sin.

        A child is pure and holy until it becomes corrupted by the world.

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Look at it this way:

          Apple has bad seed.
          Apple reproduces more delicious looking apples,but the seed is still bad and passed on and on and on ...
          Apple still looks good ,tastes good, appears to be good.

          The outside is good looking.
          The inside contains seed of bad seed....

          Man looks on the outside of everything

          God looks on the inside of everything.

          1. dingdondingdon profile image60
            dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Continuing with the apple metaphor, let's say the most perfect gardener plants an apple tree. As this gardener is perfect, it makes sense that his apple tree will be perfect, and all the apples on it will be perfect too.

            A perfect apple does not have a bad seed. So how can this perfect apple tree produce an apple with a bad seed?

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The perfect seed was indeed perfect, until sin entered ,which always had the potential since the law of 'free will' was always an option.


              Enjoyed your reply and courteous manner.

              1. Disappearinghead profile image89
                Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Can't agree with your analogy Eaglekiwi. A child inherits genetic material from both parents, and that's it. Where is the sin in genetic material? God breathes the life and does the kniting. Where is the sin?

                For the seed to be somehow bad, then it could only be in the genetic material. Which then leads to the conclusion that man's behaviour and tendency to sin in in his genes which determines the structure of the brain, and therefore the will and the soul. Now we have a loophole, a get out of judgment free card, because anyone can say that their genes are the fault. Oh dear, we've also overturned the apple cart of criminal justice systems too. We've also drop a bombshell on the sexual orientation debate and the church will no longer be able to tell the gay community that they are going to bun in hell.

                The more you think about it, the church does not want to go down the rabbit hole of inherited sin in the genes. Better then to scrap the whole idea of original and inherited sin then.

    27. SomewayOuttaHere profile image59
      SomewayOuttaHereposted 5 years ago

      ...okay....one more time...at the original post....

      ...he wasn't thinkin'...it's a story to make some kind of point....you know sumthin' about wimen ruling and things like that....cuz wimen rule!

     
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