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Are christians divided among themselves over jesus christ?

  1. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 6 years ago

    do all christians view jesus christ is same manner or do they differ in their views for jesus christ?...i mean some christians say he was god , some say he was son of god , some say he was god/son combined and so on...

    1. Cagsil profile image59
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Of course they are divided. That was the object of "religion". wink

      A divided masses cannot unite to learn truth. wink

    2. Jefsaid profile image59
      Jefsaidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      They are divided because religion is an elaborate mixture of historical accounts and myths.  There is no single truth to him as his Christian story is mythical.

    3. profile image67
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The reality is Jesus was son of man, as he himself proclaimed, and he was a loved one of the Creator-God and a Messenger Prophets of Him. It is wrong of Christians of believe Jesus a god or son of god and against Jesus' beliefs. It is sinful to believe Jesus a god or son of god; Paul committed this sin and the Church followed Paul.

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Tell us yet again the peaceful nature of your religion?  smile

    4. profile image0
      SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      All Christians believe Him to be the Messiah.  Not because of the knowledge of men but by revelation of who he is.

    5. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      paar

      the reality is Christians believe what they will, and Muslums believe what they will, and the whole thing is so off tilt we are killing each other over it, and "all" of it reguardless of beliefe is based or word of mouth knowledge handed down from 80-150-500 years after it happened. No proof what o ever.

      its not worth all the death and hatred for all of its glory.

      pisean,
      when you have a book, and deny the first half of it, then keep watering down the 2nd half as the new word of fact.

      then brainwash groups of people to believe their one version of it is the only way. then confusion, seperation, and false aqusitions will continue forever.

      like Cag just said, keep em divided and the truth stays hidden forever while some folks get rich on the donations.  Its big profitable business to divide and prevent truth. False Gospel sells big, always has.

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        hmmm ya...nothing divides like religion...

    6. Daniyyel profile image60
      Daniyyelposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Of course, Christianity has been long divided every since the Great Schism around the 11th century, (unless you count the council divisions within the mid 450s); now, ever since the Protestant Reformation (around the 16th century), the church has, ever since, been divided into little theological castles that place full authority on scripture (and the person interpreting) than anything else (which can be very deceptive, flawed, and false according to 2nd Peter).  Where Catholicism was born with a Pope out of the Constantinian realm, Eastern Orthodoxy had been hiding in the shadows with its unchangeable beliefs and practices.  However, before the Great Schism, Western and Eastern Christianity had no problem being united, even though there were some small differences (at the early stages) between their theological views.  The question comes to the Christian: "Which Jesus (as portrayed in churches) is the right one?"  Then comes the second question: "Why does it matter?"  The only concern here in division is truth and preference.  People either believe what they believe because they have to, because it is truth, and truth is their highest concern in life.  Or, people either believe what they believe because they want to.  For example, I may believe the Orthodox church because it has been an unchangeable truth (for the most part, well, more than anything) for the last two thousand years.  Someone else, a non-denominational Christian may believe in one their churches, because the words of their pastor may bring them comfort in their forgiveness and salvation.  People believe things and attend different churches for many different reasons.  I think if Jesus were to walk here now and see us, he would be greatly sad, for remember how sad He felt when His saw his people divided in the Judaic times when He walked the Earth.  If anything, we all need to put away our theological views and our prejudices to live one common purpose, to be united as a body.  I would say it is not within knowledge (which seems to be what separates Christians), but it is within living.

  2. profile image0
    just_curiousposted 6 years ago

    I think we are. The message and the meaning create wide schisms. The nature of the essence of Christ others. This is not, in my opinion, a bad thing. Imagine if there were 1.7 billion evangelicals, or Quakers. The world we live in shows me that the diversity of belief is necessary to negate the impact  the negative face of Christianity can have on the world, but we have apparently not reached the point where peace is possible, so an entirely Quaker philosophy would be dangerous too.

    The diversity in philosophy does not negate the bottom line truth of Christianity. To me, it can logically be seen as validating it.

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      that is what i am asking my friend...what is bottom line truth of christianity?...is jesus god or son of god or both?

      1. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It depends on who you ask. But, to me, the  argument over the essence Christ has sidelined the search for the message. Whatever  you believe he may have been is not as important as seeing the need to look inside yourself and strive for a better relationship with your God and your fellow man.

        1. goldenpath profile image80
          goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Couldn't have been said better! smile

      2. twobmad profile image60
        twobmadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Both.. Jesus is God-Man. 100% God and 100 % Human

        1. Beelzedad profile image61
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Added together, we get a total of 200% myth. smile

          1. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe 199.9% would be more accurate.

          2. twobmad profile image60
            twobmadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            well.. I am just trying to illustrate in that way so that it can more easily understood. In one person.. perfectly human and perfectly being God
            that is what I was trying to say though

            1. Beelzedad profile image61
              Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Stating that something is 100% this and 100% that can only be valid if the two variables are not similar in concept or nature, as that would create a physical and logical contradiction.



              And, that is the physical and logical contradiction I refer. smile

              1. profile image0
                just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Not being able to contemplate the spiritual is probably the crux of your delimma. Sorry, I realize this fact can be a nuisance. smile

                1. Beelzedad profile image61
                  Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Oops, that opens a can of worms. Can you please describe in detail the "spiritual" you refer which I am supposed to contemplate? What exactly, apart from scriptures, can you offer that would provide me ample reason to resolve such a dilemma? smile

                  1. profile image0
                    just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    There is a host of literature at your disposal. Perhaps, some research on your part might be in order. A little knowledge can serve a person well, especially if they hope for a valid opinion on the topic.

                    Because, without personal reflection and knowledge to draw from; what is one left with? An empty opinion?

                2. Cagsil profile image59
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Actually, the dilemma is yours to be honest. The only spirituality the human species ever needs to understand is Love and it's power.

                  Anything else is just distortion and misinformation. wink

              2. hanging out profile image61
                hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                If we look at a glass filled with water. We can say that the glass is 100% glass and the water is 100% water. In this container we have 2 100%'s. If we look at jesus who is "God (100%) IN flesh" (100%) we end up with the same conclusion. 2 100%'s.
                God is spirit
                wrapped in flesh
                2 100%'s

                1. Beelzedad profile image61
                  Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  That has been my argument all along, with which you now appear to agree.

                  Hence, god never died, he just removed his spirit that was "wrapped in flesh" just like if we removed the glass from around the water. Note that nothing happens to the water when you do that.  Thanks for pointing that out. smile

                  1. profile image0
                    just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey, it just occurred to me, you don't get the argument simply because it defies the logic of the physical world so you stop trying to figure it out. The flesh died, not the spirit. Spirit doesn't die. The symbolism is that we are raised up to be one with the divine after our death. The number of days was significant to an ancient. Three has to do with mortality. The physical world. Look at the times chosen by the writers. Jesus was thirty when he started the ministry. That is 3 x10. The number that signified divine completion within the mortal world (7 + 3 or 10 to be exact) multiplied by the number for the mortal world (3).    His ministry was ended after three years. Time enough for his mortal mission. He's 33 when he's crucified.Mortal action finished, after divinely mortal beginning. Rising in 3 days is symbolic of conquering the mortal world. Symbolically, it is everything it needs to be to share the message. To an ancient.

                  2. hanging out profile image61
                    hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    not sure what you are getting at here beelzy. Gods flesh died and that was the sacrificial part of Jesus that needed to die. When He removed His Spirit the flesh died. There was a death, a death of the flesh.

      3. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That is irrelevant actually.
        "Jesus" has nothing to do with "Christianity".
        That is the irony of it all.
        "Salvation; Re-unified human being eternal also has nothing to do with "Christianity".

        This is why there are so many divisions, doctrines and sub-doctrines of many ideologies within the sciences of equation and sensation.

        Clearly, there ought to be a total abandon of the aforementioned to truly fulfill the purpose of the work done for mankind, as exemplified by the Firstborn of many, in  each person.

        James.

        1. profile image0
          just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You're killing me with your posts. Can you suggest a book to go to to start a search for better understanding? You make too much sense to ignore.

          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            sorry curious, I don't want to kill you. smile
            And do hope my writing helps.

            Honestly, I am writing much on the subject of Eternal Life, as well as, the purpose of the Work. These explanations are only to spark a fire in people. But really, no book can compete with the real experience of everything these sciences talk about. The funny thing is the common thread in them all, the theme which comes back to a simple, yet infinitely powerful expression of faith-action,

            EDIT:

            versus people constantly spinning the "Jesus" story -which ends up in idolizing the man or the works and forgetting the reason those works were manifest (illuminated). Or worse, amplifying the reason by words of woop-woop and not by example.

            Short story: my better half is not an atheist, but grew up in a country where all theology was illegal until a few years ago. She never considered the concept and still wonders what all the noise is about these concepts. A tough and not easily swayed woman. One day she was felling sick and we were far away from any hospital or pill. I simply knew what was possible, hovered my hand over her and she jumped! She kept asking me how I did that, she felt a surge of energy go through her and immediately felt better than she had in a while. I simply told her it was "natural" for us to do this. So, the experience is what proved to her the possibility, versus me conditioning her with a 30 hour sermon on the pulpit.

            This is what is missing in all the sects.

            James.

            1. profile image0
              just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Well ok. You should write a book. Fascinating mind you have there.

              1. profile image0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thank You?!.

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Where there is division there is sin...
      because Sin is division itself and not the cause of it.

      This cleary means that Christianity do not have the Truth...
      Because their "Truth" is divided and therefore cannot ever be Truth.

      Truth is Single. Truth is ONE

      The Christ within christianity is actually antichrist because it is divided and cause division..thus Sin.

      This is plain except to themselves.

      1. goldenpath profile image80
        goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The same can be said of muslims, buddhists, agnostics and even the yellow brick road.  We are a people of tangible existence.  From birth we thrive in the learnings of what we can see, smell and touch.  The road of faith in that which is not physically seen is a long and personal road.  No two people are on the same point on that road.  Sure, sin is everywhere but in this case it can be as simple as a matter of perception. 

        The relationship with your chosen god is your own and yours to strengthen.  That relationship is your perception that no one else shares.  This goes with every system of faith out there.  Beware of pride!  Slamming an entire faith system because there are divided flawed humans is a narrow view indeed.

        1. kess profile image60
          kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Those who actually follow Truth from the heart are already one and would not speak from with none of these establish systems...

          each must follow their own path, but only those that truly understand this enough to make it a reality will know Truth and Follow it..

          Those within the systems, seeks justification from the system and by the system....thus erring from the singularity of Truth within.

          Any man within any system must abide by the rule of this system, and everything he does within the system is for the system itself thus he promotes this system because he is one with the system.

          Check your doctrine my friend, you know Truth but you hide it under a bushel.. which is the lies of the system.

          1. goldenpath profile image80
            goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            That's a lot of "systems" in your reply.  I prostrate myself before your knowledge.  If I tried saying that three times fast I would have tripped over my tongue. 

            I believe you are confusing system with order.  Even the universe has order.  Order is the highway to progress.  You CAN have order and personal liberty in a coexisting package.  It's irresponsible to advocate "free living" in an anarchy setting.  Religious systems are established in their respective orders.  Every individual is duty bound by their Creator to use good informed judgement to see if any particular "order" is right for them.

            Personal liberty to choose is the foundation of the universe.

            1. kess profile image60
              kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              If you understood the Order of God who is ONE for truth ONE and his Order is ONE....you would understand why the systems themselves are false...for they are multiple

              For  the systems builds another order that is foreign to the first oeder...

              And without the order of the systems and within these systems their false belief cannot continue...

              note if satan does not have an order how can his kingdom exist?

              ps. dont get side tracked by trivialities....

              1. goldenpath profile image80
                goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I think in a very small way we are trying to say the same thing.  For everything that is good there is an evil mirror to it.  In other words, His is a house of order and likewise the adversary has set up hosts of houses to mimic that order.  Yes, these are false.  Yes, that true order is the Order of God.  Yes, in that Order the people are one.  Yet, that perfect oneness exists in heaven at the presence of God.  While on earth in mortality we are beings left to our each understandings and perceptions.  We each have the responsibility to listen to the voice within and choose our paths.

                1. kess profile image60
                  kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  We are ages apart in our understanding and purpose.

                  You operate from within a system because you do not know any better.

                  So therefore in your ignorance you perpetuate an Order which is actually the dominion of Satan.

                  The Order which is of God unlike the Order of the world.

                  If you knew it you would not do the things you do...

                  1. Jefsaid profile image59
                    Jefsaidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    There is one truth and it has nothing to do with religion which is an indoctrination evolved through the origins of social management.  The earliest worship was spiritually of the stars, sun and nature without human connotation.  When rulers realised the power they could gain through harnessing these beliefs they manufactured stories that captivated people's spiritual ties with themselves having god-like status. 

                    By the time Jesus came onto the scene, religion (re-legion) had become a sophisticated process in parts of the Egyptian Empire (e.g. the Babylonians).  European invaders particularly around the time of the Romans adopted their knowledge and techniques to concoct an elaborate story re-interpreting, sometimes fabricating fundamentally Egyptian/Ethiopian beliefs. 

                    Judaism chose to ignore Jesus who was something of an enemy, Islam recognised him as mortal being while Christianity positioned him as the son of god alias Sun God in Egyptian terms.  Much of the biblical story is misrepresentation of earlier beliefs in my view and therefore pure myth.

                  2. pisean282311 profile image58
                    pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    @kess

                    ?

      2. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Agreed, on some levels. Individuals search for truth. Organized religion attempts to package it in a message for the masses, which in and of itself is a recipe for disaster.

    3. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "The bottom line truth of christianity"

      With a straight face? smile

      1. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That would depend on your definition of the bottom line truth. I'm right there with you that many definitions are points for humor. I do like to laugh, but I find their philosophies make their joke quite flat and sad.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't do flat and sad. smile

          1. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Neither do I. smile

  3. goldenpath profile image80
    goldenpathposted 6 years ago

    Most definitely divided.  However, I've tried to teach my congregation to strive toward common ground in relating with other faiths in the community.  I did an activity back in October involving a large Catholic congregation and my Mormon congregation.  It was fantastic!  I was scared but it went extremely well.  At the end I expressed the thought that if we can agree that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that it is through Him that we can gain our place in heaven than there is solid common ground on which to work together.  All other doctrines and practices aside.

    1. profile image0
      just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That sounds commendable of you. I couldn't begin to imagine the difficulty in having to moderate such a gathering, although I do believe that the individual Christian is a little more accepting of others outside of the confines of their church's teachings. I often wonder how closely linked teaching is to the individual's personal belief. I think, if people shared their feelings honestly, and didn't feel the need to repeat their understanding of the dogma,  we'd be closer to the same page than we think.

      1. goldenpath profile image80
        goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You have no idea how "right on" I'm with you on that.  Faith is a personal journey.  Many faiths do not advocate personal study of the scriptures.  They would rather you accept the words of your preacher.  This is not good in my opinion and strips one of the right and responsibility to make informed choices.  Every Christian should have a set of scriptures and diligently reading them.

        If we do this and allow the Spirit to touch our hearts, minds and understanding we will be on the road to being "one" as a people.

        1. profile image0
          just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          So glad to hear a minister say that. People don't appear, at times, to want to put the effort into it, or maybe it is simply that they are scared to face their own demons. I don't know. I do believe that your stance should be the rule, and not the exception.

          1. goldenpath profile image80
            goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I must say, and this goes for all religious systems, that not advocating personal study and informed choice is a device of power.  To teach blind acceptance of someone's words is a means of maintaining power over that person.  The idea is offensive to me.  Sure, many people in various congregations would be dwindled due to personal study but in the end those who teach it will have a much stronger base of people.

            1. profile image0
              just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Very good point. You can't build a rock of faith on somebody else's island. I think many people are so afraid of hearing an alternate view because they know it will make them have to face the fact that they have no continuity. They have a conflict within themselves. You can't truly have faith if you can't line up your perception of reality with your professed beliefs.

            2. hanging out profile image61
              hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Well so much for a math or geography or history book or i guess even model train set 001 is out the window and these are books of man. If we begin to believe that Gods word is not Gods word then we journey down a trail of falling away. The more i read the word of God i more i cannot believe it is written by mere man. People who need a reason not to believe in the bible this is the first straw they grasp at.

    2. hanging out profile image61
      hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      so how did the mary thing go? This is the problem if we lay aside all the important stuff of course we can get along BUT this is not Gods way. We have to think of other false relgions as God thought of evil nations surrounding israel in the OT. A force to be reckoned with and hopefully annihilated. There is only one way to God... Jesus did not preach be the best person you can be and get along with everyone. Indeed the religious system of the pharisees and saducees were vipers and thieves (john 10:10) and so it is in our time. Many people think they have a way to God and often the way they have chosen is quite pleasing to their flesh, funny how that worked out. I once said God bless you to a mormon and he looked completely shocked as he worked his way to God through his own efforts, while christ wants us to cease from our own works. In every area of study or learning, exactness is tantamount. How much less in our journey to eternal life.

  4. profile image67
    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago

    The division among the Christian denomination will be bridged with the advent of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908.

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      now how does will be bridged relate to past event...it has not been bridged or already has been bridged?

  5. profile image0
    BunuBobuposted 6 years ago

    Christians are so divided that some have even subtracted themselves from Christianity.
    Also some weirdos have been added. Some don't even know what the Bible says.

    1. profile image67
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      They are Christians in name; they are not one with Jesus- Son of Man, the Messenger Prophet of the Creator-God who selected Jesus for guidance of the human beings like Moses,Krishna and Muhammad.

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        again u forgot to mention your name in the list  sad

  6. Pandoras Box profile image82
    Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago

    No. They all agree he sucked ass, except for the part where he where he literally said gays were hell-bound, that part they agree on. And the shit about Muslims. And the rest of us. All that they agree on..

  7. profile image67
    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago

    Jesus came to unite human being on Truth.

    They are Christians in name; they are not one with Jesus- Son of Man, the Messenger Prophet of the Creator-God who selected Jesus for guidance of the human beings like Moses,Krishna and Muhammad.

    The Christians should believe truthful teachigs of Jesus instead of the deviation made by Paul and the Church; that will unite them again.

    1. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Was Jesus telling the truth when He said that His Father sent Him?

      what about when He said about His own life, "I have the power to lay down my life, and take it up again". (Resurrection)

      Or, "I and the Father are ONE".  NEVER did Jesus refer to Allah, much less that Allah was His Father.


      I mean, if you keep telling everyone that the Gospels are a lie, and that Paul made it all up to deceive, just how can you (or anyone) know what Jesus actually said? Where else are His teachings written down for us to know and learn?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL

      2. hanging out profile image61
        hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        remembering that jesus was a fleshly human husk which contained the fulness of the godhead bodily. It is not out of context that jesus say the father sent him. Many other prophets were sent, or put on missions. When God became born, wrapped in flesh he had a dual purpose: to live like a human  pointing us to God, who is father to all and to teach the new dispensation as prophesied in the torah.

  8. hanging out profile image61
    hanging outposted 6 years ago

    Getting back to the topic. Perhaps there are many unresolved perceptions about the deity of Jesus Christ. A main issue i see is that while atheists believe they know all things, christians are not that way inclined. Indeed to know spirituality which are the ways of God christians need to study, meditate and learn about such a thing. With all the necessary information about how God wants US to walk there are also doctrines of this and that and one of those is exactly who is Jesus Christ. I will not attempt to answer this question and i will parallel it with another dioxy. As some are quite content to believe a snake talked in the garden and the fruit of the bad tree was an apple; while following the ways of God in the bible, this is okay. There is no real foul manifested. Time is dilemma as we humans have so little of it, so it seems. We eat, sleep, work, have families and affiliations and entertainment time, etc.. study and prayer are things that require time made not time found. Indeed when Christians make time for God and the pursuit of him the deity of Jesus christ will become clear, in the appropriate time. It is impossible for US to know all things and we need to grow and learn along the way.

    1. Beelzedad profile image61
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Nope, it's the other way round, atheists will admit to not knowing all things, just like scientists will admit that, too. It is in fact believers, Christians, Muslims, etc. that do indeed tell us they know all things absolutely, through their gods.



      Do Christians eat apples or keep snakes as pets? smile

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        ? dont tell me christians dont eat apple...they do..dont they?

    2. Jefsaid profile image59
      Jefsaidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Christians absolutely do ram down our throats their righteousness and damnation of non-believers as heathens and sinners. A spiritual reality may exist but Jesus the son of god?  I think not.  Jews do not think so and Muslims regard him as just another figure of that time.  To believe that a contrived story written by man provides all meaning to life is just ridiculous.  The bible and Jesus are not the beginning of our existence as its early European indoctrinators would have one believe. A lot more happened before then.  In fact, Christianity is the most fabricated of all religions that all emanated from Egyptian/Ethiopian spiritual beliefs.

      1. profile image67
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this
      2. profile image67
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus god or son of god in literal terms is a fabrication of sinful Paul and the sinful Church, for sure.

        1. pisean282311 profile image58
          pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          and who determines sin?..you?

          1. profile image67
            paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Is it not a Christian doctrine that every human beings is sinful except Jesus?

      3. Vibs245 profile image60
        Vibs245posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus, "God" or "Son of God" not a matter of discussion. But he was a man of caliber , who played a vital role organizing the society in his time. That made him someone equivalent to the God.

        1. pisean282311 profile image58
          pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          well during his time or after he was gone?..idea of jesus prevail...he didnt achieve much during his own lifetime barring few number of followers...

 
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