Read in another hub post that true christians wont speak bad about any one. Now I want to know more about this from christians. How do you define true christian?
Odd question. I would certainly hope a Christian would stand up for what they believe in, but it is typical of people to protect what they perceive as an ally. You see this behavior in any organization. Safety in numbers is the cause of most injustice and ignorance. It has been my observation it is not common human behavior to speak one's mind with any conviction. People will choose to get along and follow the crowd over honesty; even if it undermines their integrity. This behavior is not limited to those labeled christian.
while in church or with other christians I stand up for the word, with non-believers it serves no point to argue about the word, I will let people know where I stand and they can tell me where they stand about religion, everyone has the right to believe what they wish,
I will invite you to church and tell you Jesus loves you
you can tell me to shove it, that does not mean we can not get along in the world
Yes, but when christians say and do things that are against what you believe to be fair and right, many times they are given leeway to continue because other christians won't stand up to them. Somehow it is considered unchristian.
christians are their brother's keeper, if they can not talk to a brother or sister about something they are doing, are they really a christian?
a christian must make an attemp at standing up for the word.
Paul had to admonish Peter
That is what I believe also. Where are the christians within the churches that espouse the hatred of their fellow man?
There is hardly any true Christian in the Christians; they follow Paul and the Church leaving Jesus Christ aside; they don't follow Jesus.
It is a misnomer; they don't have any true definition for a Christian.
Oh, I have more faith in people than that. They may have strayed from the path they set out on, but the message of Jesus is what brought them there in the first place. I'm sure they'll find their footing if they try.
Paul is downed by everyone. The same people raise up Christ. Christ CHOSE Paul. Double standard for those claims. Paul taught for Christ whom Christ chose. I don't see how it's a 'follow one or the other' agenda.
Paul was previously "Saul" prior to Jesus recruiting him.
14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 1 ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Somone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah.
well, I've been told by a few very aggressive 'christians' here that have never met me that I must never have been a 'true' christian in the first place, because I do not believe anymore
Its probably more important what you think ,not what others think, but I do know what you mean.
Some people claim to know me better than I know myself
Anyone that says someone else is not a "true" Christian is a flippin idiot.
And I am a Christian.
Ezekiel 18:24 Talks about those that once believed but no long do.
Rev 13 talks about those that will fall away from the faith
I started to answer this, but it got so long that I turned it into a hub!
If you honestly wish to know, checkout my latest Hub Posting I discuss it in depth.
A true Christian is a person who received grace from God.
That is a very interesting question.
When I believed in God, I never described myself as a Christian but a Catholic.
The word Christian is over used and everyone who goes to Church calls themselves that. I always found the word Catholic more comforting and it set me apart from the televangelists type churches.
There are several types of Christians - Evangelical, Protestant, Non-Denominational, Charismatic, Orthodox (Eastern, Russian, Greek), Catholic (Roman and Eastern [Byzantine] Rites). Generally, when someone calls themselves "Catholic" they mean "Roman Catholic." I find it interesting that you say it "sets you apart" because it certainly does among Christians. Interesting also, though, is the fact that the word "catholic" simply means universal, which is why it's still present in the creeds of even some Protestant denominations.
This is just my view.
I claim Christ, no denomination died on a cross for my sins to be forgiven.
I am a Christian.
That's lovely. So am I. I have chosen a denomination, however, and offer no apologies for having done so. That post was in response to another individual, not a statement demanding that everyone should claim any of the mentioned denominations. But, thank you for acknowledging the post, and enjoy your walk with Jesus.
I didn't see it as a demand. Just sharing my view.
I grew up in a Baptist environment, but felt each denomination kind of pulled me away from Christ. I don't condemn them, I think anyone serving Christ is awesome no matter if they choose a denomination or not. And my responses are typically for everyone, as I try not to leave anyone out. Wasn't 'aiming' at you I promise.
It did set me apart because of the other Churches alienation.
Catholics are criticized so often by Christians, that I never considered myself part of "your religion".
I remember the first time I went to a Church which was not Catholic and the listening to people who prayed in way that scared the shite out of me and made me want to run out of the church screaming for help.
The worst were the people who wanted to save my soul because I was Catholic. These experiences, since it occurred a few times, made me fiercely defensive and I only ever felt accepted by other Catholics.
It does not matter now. I am a liberated sheep and I think for myself.
I no longer belong to any church or denomination. Now, they all seem silly to me and every moment I spent praying or engaged in any other religious activity was a wasted moment that I can never get back.
Interesting response to my post. I was actually originally speaking to broaden the scope of what you had said about Christian v. Catholic. I must have missed the mark in my attempt to do that. The point I was originally shooting for was that though there are many denominations, still it is generalized that Catholics are not Christians. I also find it hugely interesting that you talk about how you don't want to be - in regard to me - a part of "your religion." If you mean religion in general, I completely understand your point, and wish you all the best in your liberated walk as a human being. If you mean that you don't want to be a part of it because I'm one of those rotten, stinking Christians (and you like Catholics better), you might find it interesting to know that I am Catholic. Not only are we frequently criticized by other Christians, the same assumption is made about us that is often made about those who do not believe in Christianity...that we're headed straight to hell. I, contrary to your assumption, am one of those among whom you claim to feel more comfortable. But, you don't know that because your truth is in your assumption and was not garnered as a result of asking what I actually believe.
Knowing that I'm Catholic may convince you now that I do, in fact, accept you, regardless of the fact that you may think, feel, behave, or believe differently than I do. It may, perhaps, take away some of the defensiveness with which you responded to my post. I tend to think that will not be the case, but I can hope that it is.
All the best to you!
The words "true christian" are always used to critize someone who doesn't believe the same things you do. There is no such thing as a "true christian" and it's more likely a fallacy, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Then how you define a Christian? Was Jesus a Christian or a Jew?
He was Jewish. He didn't follow himself.
You mean Jesus did not have the Christian beliefs; he was a Jew and hence he believed differently; his beliefs were Jewish.
Not entirely. His words were meant to clarify the intent of the law. From my understanding the laws had created an insane and burdensome religious structure. He taught in the streets and fields, outside of the synagogues. He stayed on the move, not letting structure build up around him. His message was to have faith in your ability to connect without the structure of religion. To seek from within. But that got lost pretty quickly. Organized Christianity and Islam have proven that.
Your understanding is completely sound, just_curious. Unfortunately, we have changed and corrupted the original message of Christ in many of our "organized" religious environments. That doesn't mean I forsake them, of course, but I certainly stand up and say when I feel someone isn't seeking God or living love, but rather "keeping the law." There is, though, a need for structure among human beings. We are natural beings, desiring a natural order. Non-conformity is sometimes necessary and admirable, but in some way, I believe we all need some structure, some order, and some...not conformity, necessarily, but COMMUNITY, a sense of connection to those with whom we share common belief and endeavor for a common purpose. That's where "organized" religion began. Sadly, that is not how it's progressed, or where it stands currently. I, like you, however, believe with all my heart that there is hope in there somewhere. There are many who don't understand why when I left the convent, I didn't originally leave the Church. That happened, but later, and because of other circumstances and events. My husband said this to me once - "You seem to truly understand the Church for what it is, but you love it for what it can be."
I like your philosophy and I have no doubt there is room for hope. I saw too much as a kid to think I could ever make a difference, or have the stomach to try. I have always given the church the benefit of the doubt and assumed there were more good people than bad. You are obviously one of the good ones.
As to the need for structure? You are right. Most people enjoy camaraderie of those who think as they do, and I'm sure there are moments when you feel the spirit within that group. I have met a kind and decent pastor or two who probably did a fine job leading his flock. I actually had a catholic priest hunt me down and step up to the plate to fight to let my first husband die with dignity when the doctors were going against his wishes, and doing it behind my back.
Maybe it's the terminology, or the idea of flocking. I don't know I simply hate to follow and get uncomfortable with anyone that looks at me to tell them what to think.
There is no shame at all in being a free spirit or a free thinker. You're in great company, as Jesus Himself was a free thinker. He went against religious norms of the day. He certainly went against cultural norms. Egads, He spoke to women! He let them touch Him! He even (GASP!) spoke to a Samaritan (a non Jewish) woman. In short, He loved. He didn't worry about the rules, and the laws, and the garbage. Believe me, there are as many Pharisees in the Church (as a whole, universally) today as there were in Jesus' time. Sad, but true. The best that we can hope for (and make every effort to do) is to not be among them, or to speak up like Jesus did when we are.
Christ endorses Churches. He gives them instructions in Revelations.
All of Chapters 2 and 3 in Revelations are instructions to Churches. If He did not endorse going to Church, I'm sure the instruction would have been much shorter to the effect of "Stop going to Church." Wouldn't take much more than that to get the point across. -- 2 Whole chapters is a pretty sound endorsement.
Well, therein lies the crux of the dilemma. Having spoken no words on this himself, I choose to look to his words. What you do, in my mind, is follow the ideas that were hammered out centuries later. The New Testament, including the gospels, was determined by a corrupt group whose objectives are suspect. I do not doubt the message of Jesus. I doubt men. It has been my observation that the individual person, attempting to lead a decent life, in harmony with those around them, does this much better by following the spirit of Jesus's words and not the word of the church. I think history supports my conclusions.
Power corrupts. It is part of the human condition. There have been two thousand years where this has happened to the message. Yet, it still stands quite poignantly within that massive ball of lies. If you look, in my opinion.
message of christ in unknown...what projected as message of christ is message of his followers which might be or might not be message of christ...
You are correct, in that some of it is taken on faith. I remember when the Jesus Seminar was attacked in the news by the church here. I happen to agree with their findings. The message of Jesus should be stripped down to the barest bones of what we can feel confident were his words. If you're going to hinge a philosophy on the teachings of an individual, you have every reason to ensure the words you look to are his.
I agree completely. Don't follow the Church, but follow the Scriptures and Jesus' words.
Jesus said to follow the Old Testament scriptures and USED them many, many times. He based everything He said on them.
9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) — 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
That was Jesus reading the scriptures to the people. Scripture of the Old Testament is exactly what Jesus taught. To throw it out is to throw out His very own words.
Multiple examples of Jesus using the Old Testament Scriptures and telling us to use them can be found here:
God bless you all.
Daniel, I have reviewed the passages and that post proves no point, but an ability to post scripture. I'm sorry, that was not intended to be unkind. We do not see its intent eye to eye. As I have told you, I do not trust anything other than the words, as fairly attributed to Jesus. This is not a conversation that will result in a meeting of the minds, because you are little interested in anything other than repeating what has been taught to you by the church. I do understand this, and admire your zeal, but I see no reflection on the words in your posts.
I know. Hence the reason it's there for everyone rather than your own interpretation. Sorry you feel that way. Enjoy your debates.
it doesn't matter anymore daniel. I will cheerfully leave you to your bible thumping. Enjoy.
You mean quoting?
Yes. I do quote the word of God very often. Thank you.
Vector, I don't vehemently disagree. I simply think you're wrong on all levels, down to the most basic one. I would explain this, but you would not listen and it would simply become a protracted exchange, with no end in sight. Whatever makes you happy: do it. I'll leave the arguments to people you make unhappy with your assumptions as to the nature of this book. There appear to be quite a few of them. And, trust me, their ranks are growing.
Curious, you hit on the reason why I personally do not hold with religion. I think that Jesus was teaching against organized religion because of how easily corrupted an institutional structure like religion will get. As such I think the churches of this world are all evil, (with those claiming to know the message of Jesus adding insult to injury). In some people religion works, they make it work. What I find sad is that all of their goodness, their kindness and whatnot are attributed to the church, not to their in built goodness or faith in God but instead their faith in Church. To many worship the alter, not the God they speak of from the alter.
I agree. But I would take it a step further. I honestly believe anyone that holds with the philosophy of Jesus, whether they attribute it to him, or not, follows the message. They are, in my opinion, truer 'christians' than those who use scriptures to thump the rest of us on the head.
I used to feel the same, now well.....
Call me a christian and I will take it as an insult. Since you are online, I wont take it as a deep insult tho
I know. It is an embarassment to call oneself that here. I'd change the name, but I have no idea what to call myself other than that. I don't define myself the way everyone else defines me here, so it's cool.
Wonderful human being?
Both of those would probably fit you just right
kind of you to say. Unfortunately, I know myself too well. I'll find a moniker that suits me eventually.
oh I didn't say perfect
perfection not required, for anything to be beautiful including us
Jesus used scriptures. I'm sorry you think it wrong for me to follow His example.
Although that was witty and humorous, it is also a conflict. Christianity is a "faith" or a "belief." It is not a fact. If it was a fact, it would no longer be faith. Faith is believing in something you can't see. If you can't see something you can't prove it. A fact is "true" but a belief or faith is more like an opinion. Much like if I claim to be good looking, I can't prove it to be "true." It is a belief.
Just so you know, I am quite good looking.
A Man who wears tights must surely be confident in himself, hehe
"""The words "true christian" are always used to critize someone who doesn't believe the same things you do. There is no such thing as a "true christian" and it's more likely a fallacy, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Sc … uot;"
"No true Scotsman is an intentional logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it."
This has so many holes in it that it sincerely saddens me such was posted.
A "Scotsman" does not have a single person with specific teachings on which to follow. That is a false assertion as Christ Jesus gave many examples and instructions on how to live. And the people that believe in Him and live by His rules are Christians.
Christians have guidelines where a "Scotsman" does not.
Your wiki link is against your own claim:
"When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A".
Christians have a "true A" ---> Christ... ian...
One person, which is Christ Jesus, who is "true A" that sets the "definition" of what an actual Christian is.
Please refer to my below posts for the completed explanation.
There's no thing like a true Christian. Christianity is far beyond the concepts of doctrines and dogmas. Some may tend to religiously measure themselves better than others which is purely carnality. A core sign of hypocricy and self righteousness. Christianity is not a religion but the life of God in a believer and this life is not purchased by any man's work least anyone should boast of it.
Oh "Contaré", Andrew,
'Christianity is far beyond the concepts of doctrines and dogmas'
-Christianity IS the most volatile doctrine/dogmatic approach to living and was formed by people of immoral value and faithlessness, else they would follow the "Way" which has no book or doctrine, sharing all things in common AND very much expounding the fruit of Eternal Life --meaning actual manifestations of Spirit versus pretend ones.
'Christianity is not a religion"
-Christianity is in fact a religion, a united form of Ba`al-Judaism, because they still have titled the One who has no name and is all things to a semantic idea called "God". Second, like your half-paraphrased quote from the Pauline letters, the "believer" only spits sand onto an already full beach, Plastic Fruit, aka quoting scripture --or words from a very mutated book, fashioned in the late 14th century but violently claimed to be the perfect, infallible word of "God". Even still, following the words in the book: clearly states not to follow words in a book, but the true words of Creator are written on the hearts of the faithful. Again as the book says: even "demons' "believe" --and they are scared sh!teless of the real power.
So, yes Christianity IS a sure sign of hypocrisy and self righteousness, completely neglecting --or refusing-- the true righteousness given to them for the sake of keeping their religion and doctrine alive.
Just An Edification...
@twenty one days, the word Christian originated from Christ, believed to be Christ followers and not just the man made religion out of it. Christ Jesus rightly pointed to his followers that the words he spoke to them are life and spirit - John 6:63. This is where the crazy self centered activities of the religion like were ruled out completely from the God life. The Word of God are life and spirit which means a lot to man's classifications of the God life at work in a supposed Christian.
Funny enough the concept of 'a true Christian' is always basically rated by mortals not by God(Spirit). One man assumed himself holy and accepted by God, he counted his ability to keep the laws of Moses but missed out the cardinal one(love) when he was told by Jesus to sell all he had and give them to the needy and follow. He religiously lost out. Christianity is not a religion but a 'Faith' walk.
Incorrect, the word Christ in both the Hebrew & Greek refer to a verb not a noun, so it would be the active "anointing" no a singular anointed individual.
Again, oh contrare, ALL followers define themselves by a title given them by the most ruthless, mocking pagans in Roman history, at Antioch.
No such person exists or did. The man you are speaking of did NOT follow himself, found ANY theology, doctrine, etc based on (or not based) on Judaism; nor did he ask to be worshiped or idolized --only remembered for the work done --by doing the same. PLUS that was not his name at all. Which is funny that "Christians" are always calling on that name --in vane I might add.
Really? How so, when the "Word of G-d" is merely classified to a set of mutated words in a book "finalized" in the 14th century by Anglo-Roman pagans? You are seriously not suggesting a book is the totality of Creators words? Noting a) the word is Spirit --same spirit "brooding" at creation. b) the word is written on hearts. c) the words were inspired by Creator. no where does it say in Torah that it is THE words of Creator, only an inspiration. The rest was mans doing and interpretation.
And the correspondences (letters) of the "New Testament" are not considered scripture. Because scripture is directly related to the law of Sin/Death aka Mosaic Law.
Of course it is, by the very nature of the doctrine. The Sect took on the EXACT reflection of the Law (which is actually scripture aka Torak/Tanahk) and used to once again suppress the people into law, fear, indoctrination. The funny thing actually is for a brief moment, the Spirit actually flowed, and less than 50 years later, the power and revealing truth of the Spirit was never mentioned again, until the faux Protestant Reformation "Revival" occurred in the late 1960s-70s, via LeSea and other ministries --whom I was apart of in the early 1990s, graduated "bible school" and offered an position as junior pastor (aka recruiter), then a year later offered another position by a non-denominational "1st Century" worship group, who stole literally 1 million dollars from a very kind and giving man. And this shepherds own son, who pleaded with me to teach them faith, versus doctrines about faith and not to forget the ever changing false prophecies of end times etc...
There is no such thing as a "faith walk". Either you ARE faith, dripping with Anointing, bearing fruit to Eternal Life for EVERYONE to eat and see, or not.
This is actually an excellent question. I see this explanation/rationalization/excuse all the time when a self-proclaimed Christian does something dishonorable or out of line with what others believe, even if they have the bible on their side.
Priests who molest little boys are not 'true christians'.
The Westboro people are not 'true christians'.
The people who assassinate abortion doctors are not 'true christians'.
From the other side of the fence, people who think homosexuality is compatible with Christianity are not 'true christians'.
People who think it's ok for women to be preachers are not 'true christians'.
I'm sure there are more examples, these are just the ones I can remember right now.
This always comes from the point of view, completely incompatible with the others making the same claim, that the person making the statement IS the true christian.
Everyone who says it considers themselves the 'true' christian and everyone who disagrees with their view is not.
Claims are empty, I agree completely. And I don't label people, I let their words and actions do that for themselves.
Jesus told us how to know who is a 'true Christian.'
16 "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit."
Good fruits: If they are good, good to people, do good and kind things, show care for others, and follow the law. Bad fruits: Mockery, labeling people, unloving acts, arrogance etc etc... Including the list above of which I whole-heartedly endorse as true, show that they are NOT "actual" Christians.
It's simple. Christians show love... for Christ said to love even your enemies. Christians teach and spread the Gospel. And they try VERY earnestly to live holy lives. The above list is an obvious proof they aren't trying very hard, as you may slip a bad word, but those are completely pre-thought out evil deeds (or really bad fruit).
The Gospel or "Good News" Christ is the Saviour and is here.
15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Christians do slip and fall. But assuredly the pre-thought evils and "staying" in the little screw ups do not show a sincere devotion to Christ.
And finger pointing is unnecessary as we all know who is who because they themselves will tell everyone.
And the full out liars?
Well, there are three things that can't stay hidden for long. The sun, the moon, and the truth...
I think asking someone to define, or give an example of a "true" Christian is a bit unfair. Unfortunately, even Christians are fallible, broken, and incomplete human beings. If you're asking who/what the perfect Christian is, there isn't one. Period. We are all simply striving to be like the One we love and follow.
And, Jesus wasn't historically "Christian." He was a Jew. Born and bred in the Middle East, which gives me the strange idea that perhaps he wasn't blue-eyed with blond, flowing hair as he's often pictured in bibles around the world. I like to think he looked something like Naveen Andrews (Sayid from Lost) - although he isn't even Middle Eastern. He's of Indian descent. But, he's beautiful, and I think the next movie made about Jesus should cast him as the star.
His nationality matters not.
Christ "DEFINES" Christianity. Hence -->"Christ <-- ian"
Christianity didn't exist prior to Christ. He's the reason for it. True followers of God no doubt, but the name of Christianity was made by His entrance into time itself.
(notice what time centers around... say what they want, Christ is the main focus)
"Unfortunately, even Christians are fallible, broken, and incomplete human beings."
Spot on there miss. Just a note: That is the essence of Christianity. Recognising that statement as true, and admitting we need God, who is Christ Jesus crucified for forgiveness of our sins. But like I noted... While we are imperfect, we can be more devoted than we admit more often than not.
The military knows men are imperfect, but holds their men at very high standards. And they do awesome at their jobs, no matter the job they are given. Hence the reason I strive to be a "soldier" for Christ. For in everything I do, I strive to honour my Father God through Christ Jesus.
Umm, perhaps I should have very clearly stated that I was referring to the question posed earlier in the thread "Was Jesus a Christian?" No, He was not. He was a Jew. I didn't say that it mattered in terms of defining "true" Christianity. It was simply a statement about His human history.
As to ethnicity, I was not referring to Jesus' ethnicity for any other reason than to point out that many "true" Christians seem to think he was blonde with blue eyes. Having been born and bred in the Middle East to a woman who was also born and bred in the Middle East, I think it's far more likely that His appearance, which is ultimately of little importance, was not what many believe it to be. My later references to ethnicity were in regard to Naveen Andrews (the actor).
The OP asked how you define a true Christian and stated that someone else had said that a true Christian will never speak badly of anyone.
I stated that Christians are imperfect and fallible and broken human beings who do the things that other human beings do. I did not in any way say or imply that they should not or are not held to higher standards of conduct.
"I was referring to the question posed earlier in the thread "Was Jesus a Christian?" No, He was not."
Let me rephrase:
The answer is: "No, He cannot be a Christian."
Christ CANNOT be a "Christian" if He is the CAUSE of Christianity for that would mean He followed Himself. Which is absurdity. You cannot follow and lead. That is an absolute contradiction.
Definition of Christian
believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody whose religion is Christianity
Christ is not His own Savior. He is THE Savior. Therefore He cannot be a Christian, who are people saved by Him.
God bless you.
No doubt about it Motown ,Jesus was easy on the eye some say rugged,some say ..oh I forget now
I say ...All Good.
The funny thing about is even if Jesus were pink with purple spots ,certain people would still argue the details
We humans by nature live o dissect everything lol
yet it's 'christians' who refer to other people as 'true' christians or not
I don't think it is any, but the worst among us, that scream others aren't true christians. The only definition of a christian is that you believe in Jesus. I think, what I tend to raise an eyebrow at is the way we show our understanding. It isn't that someone doesn't believe, it is that their way of showing it is off the path that reflects the message, as I see it to have been shared.
The primary problem I have with christians is they don't stand up for their beliefs, but choose to let the hatred continue. But I do recognize that this is simply my interpretation, so I do not know what motivates others to remain silent.
Agree some here ,puts me in mind of the saying:
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.
I love God,I try not to be insincere and I definately would rather show it action than to just spout about my beliefs
Yep. I've got that saying about evil scrolling across my screen saver. It is so true, on so many levels. People don't stop to think sometimes.
Yes. Whenever you discuss anything unsavory about the church or its followers, someone -- a Christian -- announces, "but they aren't true Christians". Of course, the people making this declaration ARE the true Christians, which can't really be true since they are often excluding someone else who has just made the same claim.
The number of times I've heard this from my in-laws ALONE would be huge, but add in other sources, like forum posts and books...
Once again, each individual or group believes they have the monopoly on truth and gets to JUDGE and EXCLUDE others from their elite club. It's the way of religion, so is not surprising.
True, but it's not ALL of us. Just like not ALL atheists/agnostics/ignostics/non-christian believers refer to Christians as morons, idiots, indoctrinated sheep, etc...
Christians aren't the only hypocrites on the planet, they're not the only ones who behave badly, they're not the only ones who make mistakes and judge and label people. My original response was that there are no "true" or rather, perfect Christians. We are just people like everyone else. I think it's JUST as unfair for a Christian to declare himself a "true" Christian as it is for a non-christian person to ask what defines one.
Just my take on it. But, I also speak for myself alone, not for the entire world's Christian population.
So - being a Christian is meaningless in that case? As none of you agree on what it is to be Christian - thankfully you have stopped killing each other over it - what value calling yourself a label, claiming there are billions of you and then contradicting yourself by saying you don't believe the rubbish all the others do?
And yes - all atheists think all self-professed Christians are sheeple. Because you are.
Thanks, Mark. Nice to see you too. And, why do you care if being a Christian is meaningless? My understanding is that you think the simple question of God's existence is meaningless. Lots of meaninglessness taking up an awful lot of thought and time for you. And, I call myself a person. I call myself a Christian. It's part of my personality. I don't claim to be the epitome of what a Christian is supposed to be. I also call myself an American because I was born in America. I should probably stop doing that since there are so many different ideas of what a "true" American really is, huh? Personally, I've never killed anyone - or (gasp) even insulted them over their religious beliefs, but thank you for acknowledging that I've stopped. As to your final thought...well...Baaaaah.
I care because of the conflicts you cause. And you cannot have it both ways - either you are following like a sheeple - or you are an independent thinker.
Which is it?
Not understanding how a political doctrine can be part of your personality though. You are predisposed to following along?
I am certainly glad you now selectively reject the parts of the bible which insult those who do not share your religious beliefs. Never understood why Christians only use the parts of the bible they agree with - it was certainly instrumental in making me think and question for myself though.
Mark, I've discovered that attempting to have a conversation about anything with you is akin to playing tennis by oneself. It's sort of silly to expect a returned serve. As to espousing a political doctrine, I didn't realize that calling myself an American because I was born in America was "espousing a political doctrine." Thank you for enlightening me to how poorly I use language. Your sincere attempt at bettering me as a human being is much appreciated.
Frankly, I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of me rejecting the parts of the bible that insult those who don't share my religious views. There are truths about the bible that both christians and those who are not christian do not recognize or acknowledge. That's what has everyone all messed up. Being human is what has them all in conflict.
Sadly, you and I will never agree. Happily, I don't really care. I wish you all the best in your continued quest to enlighten the sheep, as I always have.
Dont forget the wolves, pack! pack !pack!bad dogs
I was referring to Christianity - surely one of the biggest political parties in history.
You have truly outdone your hatred on this one Mark. Stop killing each other? That is your history too. Thanks a bunch..it was probably your ancestors who forced ours across the ocean..so we wouldn't have to put up with this type of opression. Motown has always been the kindest poster on this site, but being kind isn't good enough for you. Nothing is, unless it is a mirror image of the cruelty this post of yours displays. You, I suppose, are trying to be a mirror of what you consider a christian to be. Thank goodness you are blind, and wrong.
She a nice woman and undeserving of such animosity.
Well - you have stopped killing each other over biblical interpretation. I think that is a positive step forwards. Sorry you disagree.
No Mark. We had to run across the ocean to keep from being killed off by people like you. Thanks to the internet, your kind has been able to step back up to the plate of persecution. Thank goodness words is all you can attack us with now.
Attack? Persecute? Oh - I keep forgetting you think anyone who does not agree with your religion is "attacking," you and "persecuting you". Glad you think that murdering all the Native Americans for religion was OK as well.
This is why your religion causes so many wars.
Its ill-informed attitudes like that ,that do cause wars.
Then try to leave the word war out of your next 20 posts?
Up for challenge? lol
You might lose that challenge considering that you describe your religion and your god in terms of warfare. Good luck with that.
I dont rely on luck.
I take it your answer was No...( the challenge was to Mark) but thats ok ,I like to encourage a positive spirit,therefore selection is open
Poor thing. The first post and he's already out of the running..
Sure - as long as you take off your armor and put up your sword. Up for it?
Spirit Mark ,spirit -pay attention
How can I have a decent challenge if you wont pay attention!
Sorry - I only do reality. It must be very frustrating for you.
There you go with the warfare thing, again. How very sad your religion teaches to you to be a fighter.
we are discussing the relationship of your ancestors to mine. And yes we left, then had to kick them out of our lives.
And do not stand as if innocent, in the history of genocide. England was imperialistic for a very long time and subjugated millions, for little more than to ensure the comfort of the fortunate few.
Your tiny soap box may seem a grand thing to you, but trust me, it doesn't to me. I would never consider allowing myself to be that blind.
Mark, just so you know...Native Americans were not slaughtered FOR or BECAUSE of religion. They were slaughtered because of greed for land and resources and lust for power and domination. It was all about gaining the land they inhabited and the resources it provided and subjugating them to those who thought they were superior. It is perhaps because you believe those men who did it were Christians that you say it was for religion, but it actually was not. Murder, war, and other evils perpetrated by people who call themselves Christians are not done FOR religion. They are the result of HUMAN tendencies toward greed, lust, corruption, and a sick need to be as superior as they THINK they are.
So - you are not a big fan of America being built on Christian values? It was built on good old fashioned greed. Good for you.
Let me guess - they were not "real" christians - right?
Yup, built on good old fashioned greed by Brits who didn't want to be subjugated by those to whom they felt superior. Interesting, huh? I've actually read the Declaration of Independence. The men who signed it were believers, that much is true. They believed in Divine Providence and a Creator. That doesn't mean they were Christians, in the strictest definition of the word.
Good that America was built on greed - you must be very proud. Glad America was not built on Christian values though. Strict definition? There is a strict definition? How many real Christians are there then?
Why would or should I be proud? I didn't build America. I was born here. As to the "strict definition," again I thank you for bringing to my attention how poorly I use language. And, I don't know how many real Christians there are, Mark, nor do I care. I only care about loving them - and you - and being kind to them - and you - and making sure that something I say or do every day has value and meaning and is encouraging for them - and you. I don't care about counting "them" and I don't care about "fighting" you.
Carry on, my friend!
This is how you show me you love me?
And you think this is encouraging me?
Just exactly what do you think you have done that has value and meaning and is encouraging me?
Most Native Americans (and South Americans too) died when they encountered Europeans because they did not have immunities to European infectious diseases. I think estimates are 90% of Native American population died as a result of disease. I mention this because I think one must look at reality in historical events. Europeans did terrible things, but the vast majority of Native Americans died for reasons the Europeans did not understand.
I agree that greedy people will always use whatever they can in the culture to gain their end - the culture was quite Christianized, therefore they used this retoric to defend what they wanted to do anyway. People use the same now - use the values of the culture to get what they want.
graceomalley, my husband made the same point about disease. I didn't address that point only because I get so sick about the "religious war" malarkey that I was somewhat single-mindedly focused on that. Thank you, though, for bringing up another very important point.
Ask him about the blankets "donated" from the small pox wards.
Still - defend your faith at all costs.
once again, your take on history is skewed. It was a british officer, prior to our revolution, who first suggested this type of warfare. Just like the french introduced the custom of scalping.
Maybe we could have been more civilized, if we'd run the savages back across the ocean sooner. But that is history, so I don't dwell on it. We have more important issues to deal with than pointing fingers. Don't you think?
Quite the contradictions you pose. Christians slaughtered the natives because of "greed for land and resources and lust for power and domination and subjugated them" because rather than following their religion of spreading peace and love, they did it because of "HUMAN tendencies toward greed, lust, corruption, and a sick need to be as superior."
Of course, the bible is rife with such stories of genocides and slaughters in the name of god, yet this is entirely different.
I aim to amuse. Glad to know I hit the mark.
Slaughter and genocides are amusing to you? Yikes!
I think, her point probably was that those who don't understand simple concepts of history are easily amused. She therefore knew you would be one entertained. I thought I'd help clear that up since it might have escaped your notice.
Well you and Mark seem to be obesessed by war.
Whats with that ? Scary.
Really? That's honestly how you chose to interpret that? Wow. Usually, an encounter like this one reminds me of why I don't often play in this particular sandbox.
Thanks for the freckles, Eaglekiwi. My husband likes them. He says he's okay with me not having any though.
Cheers all. Try not to hurt yourselves, or one another.
Im off to play somewhere else for a little while too Motown.
Do pop in and to say hi and share the love ,I promise I wont throw sand
Glad ya got the freckles ok and as for hubby's opinion, did ya tell hi hes not allowed one in here
God Bless you and your household
Motown is nice and a skilled writer ,however she is flawed (according to Atheists) because she calls herself 'Christian'
Such arrogance indeed.
I have freckles, and got into some pretty mean squabbles with my sister. Oh yes having freckles was against the backyard beauty shop. Then the major conflict occured , such horror emerged from these two sweet happy girls.
War was declared.
I couldnt control her ,and I had the right ,because I gave myself that right ,and she couldnt control me ,because she was better than me ,no freckles...but I didnt agree...
Sound familiar.....crazy huh
I did my best,didnt wanna let the team down
Hey the predudice went further.
Big brother said freckles made me too ugly to ever be an flight attendant!
Oh families dont ya love 'em
Guess my point is how childish to see grown intelligent men calling other grown-ups names?
I dont get that childish behaviour.
just_curious, I'm sharpening my Christian sword as we speak so we can lop off her freckled head. I mean, it's terrible to see the kind of freckled folk they allow into the forums these days. It's almost like they're trying to be loving and inclusive....blech.
Eaglekiwi, I would never have given you a hard time about your freckles if I was your sister. I used to wish I had some. I'm a little green that you do!
Well Mark has requested me take off my armour , hes naughty eh!) then perhaps I'll try bleach for my frek patch!
However theres only so much 'growing' one can do on 4 oreo cookies and milk,plus even though the milks fortified ,I do need lots of strength to draw back those arrows
Cupid draw back your arrows and let -sing it hubsters
Uploading freckles for Motown..(10 brown and 5 tan).
Download speed 4 secs.
P.S My mum used to say ,after I groaned ,Oh why did God make me like this!!! ....Oh freckles she explained means ,"youve been kissed by the sun ",and God joins the dots together when youre asleep...( but of course the sun thing happened again )
Eaglekiwi, Very cute uploading freckles.
Lol, might start a trend ?
I think Motowns are up for sale now too.( I mean the ones I sent).
No, no....hubby likes them! He's okay that I don't have any naturally, but he likes that I've recently downloaded a few! I'll be keeping them, thank you! Unless of course you offer me the best cup of coffee on the planet. Then, I'll gladly just hand them over.
Best cup of coffee? what are you serious???
Im a trained Barista
Wouldnt that be a great a coffee an cake meet up.
On the side here ,I was thinkin how long this thread has gone on.
Ive enjoyed it and I think its popularity was all due to our new sign:
Plays well with others
Sorry bouts my faux pa re frecks...( dont forget to water them daily) too xo
A trained barista you say? Better hustle your butt on up here to the States, dear girl! I'm a great lover of the coffee bean and the lovely liquid that comes from grinding and brewing it with hot water!
I promise to water them daily. Thank God they're not green. I kill anything green that requires water.
As to the length of the thread - we stopped biting, they stopped trolling. Simple enough, I think.
Love you to pieces - oh, and you're right - I make a mean cake and if you make a mean coffee, let's do it!
I can sympathize with her. I was the kid with the curly hair. I caught a lot of flack for that growing up. I was well into adulthood before I decided it wasn't such a curse.
Thank you, Eaglekiwi. Your kind words are much appreciated. I admit to being flawed. That's part of the problem for the dissenters. They say, "You're flawed!" I say, "You're right!"
Then there's nothing left to argue about and they get bored with me. Such is life.
Thank you very much, just_curious. I appreciate it when someone acknowledges my efforts to be kind.
Come on Mark, your arguements are usually much more inteligent than that. That's like saying all Americans agree on what it takes to be an American, or Patriotic. Or all "the French" have the same exact ideas on what it takes to be a proud countryman.
Every "group," has individuals that think differently and can't agree, you know this.
I expect better from you.
That is true BailryBear; it is usually Christians that use the "true" Christian phrase much like only Americnas use the phrase "true" American. You don't hear German's talking about someone being a "true" American.
I am always happy to tell people why I believe if they are interested.
Another point that is worth noting ,even Jesus doesnt recognise some people who call him Lord (well thats what he said) so I have no doubt that humans being what they are ,will either be sincere,or like wolves in lambs clothing..the modern word calls them opportunists -I call them liars.
They are everywhere ,even in a church sadly.
For anyone looking for the BEST answer, Aguasilver made an excellent hub on the subject.
By definition, a Christian is someone who follows Jesus Christ. The problem is that nobody follows Christ well enough to be claim the title.
Based on my opinion, a Christian is someone who makes mistakes, is NOT perfect, or even close, and has a bad attitude. A Christian says swear words and says things they will later regret. A Christian will often say and do things that break the heart of our God. A Christian is someone who is often judgemental and cruel when looking at people with different beliefs. I could go on, but I think you get my point.
Now, if a Christian studies the Bible like they are supposed to, and has an understanding of it then they also have a sense of gratitude. They have a sense of gratitude because they know they do alot of the above items, but they know they are still loved by an eternal God.
And, if a Christian truly has an attitude of gratitude it slowly changes their life. It slowly forces them to apreciate everything and everyone around them. They still do those things I listed, but they begin to do them less and they are a little quicker to recognize when they are wrong.
That is what I think it means to be a Christian. Unfortunately, too many people claim the title but have not yet realized what it means. Calling yourself a Christian and not behaving accordingly is like calling yourself a full contact fighter just because you wear "TapOut" clothing. It's just not how it works and people know you are just a poser.
I am a Christian. It means I swear sometimes, I am opinionated, I get angry, I hurt my God, and I dishonor His name. The only difference is, now I do it less and when I do, I try to change it.
I think it is correct; even Paul- the founder of Christianity was not a Christian in this sense; Paul was just a seed of anti-Christ while Christianity or the Church is Anti-Christ.
"The problem is that nobody follows Christ well enough to be claim the title. "
Wonder if maybe that's Jesus Christ's job to determine?
I am pretty sure Scripture gives us authority to examine another persons fruit, especially when someone claims to have authority.
Yes, authority to guide yourself away from them. Most people who talk about "authority" forget where we get it from and the guidelines involved with it.
(wasn't talking about you btw)
Judgement of another persons fruit is a good thing. And you don't need authority to do that, as God allows us to reason within our minds so we are not misled.
The thing your talking about I think is warning others after you notice they bear bad fruit. This is true and good to do, but overbearing, as I myself sometimes catch myself doing (because I want the best for people) is not what it tells us to do and only pushes people towards the danger.
You left your take on things pretty vague, so I'm unsure if I covered it correctly. But I tried.
Hi victor, Anyone who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior can joyfully claim the title of a christian. We are not perfect, but we are still followers of Christ.
Thats me too .
Forgiven but not perfect.
I am a work in progress -lol
My pleasure Mo ,although thankyou is not necessay. Credit is all yours.
Boredem, of yes my teens used to get bored,until I told them ,theres no such thing ,only boring people.
Well the suns finally out ,spring is definately around the corner.
Catch ya on the flipside Glory Girl
I think if your christian thats okay, but as soon as you start wth your "things happen for a reason" rant, i tune you out. because things happen because of somthing you have done in the past or thing you are curently doing now.
" for every action, there is an equal or oppisite reaction"
Motown I am in the states !!!! and we gotta date.
Oh what a pair we'd be-I love cake (suck at baking)..
Bring on the Arabica I say. My blend I will name HEBrews (lol) or Grounds for Coffee
P.S Ok brainstorming here -Marks got the machine ,maybe ,just maybe
By definition, a Christian is someone who follows Jesus Christ. The problem is that nobody follows Christ well enough to be claim the title.
I think it is correct; even Paul- the founder of Christianity was not a Christian in this sense; Paul was just a seed of anti-Christ while Christianity or the Church is Anti-Christ.
Your a broken record little buddy. We all know you hate Paul and the Church.
Maybe you should give it a rest. I've read at least ten of the same posts.
It might do you some good to do research, but I guess that would be beneath you.
More blissful ignorance. Gotta love it.
That's what's so cool. I know this. Go forth and do your thing Daniel. It's your life.
Just so you know, I did make a final effort on the behalf of all of you who will not pull your heads out of the sand. (with your alter egos who appear to have the same problem.
Anyway, I hope you all have fun in the little sandbox. It's been a blast for me. I know it will continue to produce some laughs.
and.... you will be back as quickly as you left!
I didn't say I was going anywhere. I simply see I'm putting my nose in where it doesn't belong. You guys are adults. Do what you want.
Unless you were speaking of this shaking off of christianity. In that case you're wrong. I don't see it as a denial of anything. It is simply am acceptance of who I am. I see no reason to harbor any animosity. I wasn't shnookered. I made a wrong choice. I blame myself only for this, because that's who I am.
No, I thought I saw you take a cruising shot at what you measure as extremes then get up and leave the room. Must be my eyesight that's the problem!
Ernest. I have never been one to cut and run. Not my style. I do have many flaws, but I don't count that as one of them. I think, to walk away from anything before it is completely understood is counter productive.
I am simply done trying to understand aspects that appear to be beyond my ken at this moment.
Just because I think you guys are wrong, doesn't mean I think I'm right. When I think that, I promise I will leave.
Incorrect for many reasons, mainly: there was no such human named Jesus Christ who existed. The man yo are talking of was not named "Jesus" and his surname was not "Christ".
By definition Christ means the AnoitING (note the caps) not a single person anointED (also note the caps).
A true christian is easy enough to pick.
They feel the need to tell others they will go to hell if they don't believe a silly myth.
I didn't tell you that. I told you that Christ Jesus told you that. And it's recorded in the Bible.
I think you already know about Jesus Christ and you are capable of choosing for yourself.
I personally believe in Christ and everything wrote about Him, and have spent my fair share of time being skeptical. I now know for myself what is true.
Everyone is able to make their own conclusions based on the information they have. I think everyone has to decide what they want for themselves.
Much of what I think is in my hubs, which are still in progress, but what is there so far I believe would give someone an accurate representation.
"Apparently you haven't learned enough."
Everyone, please do note what Cagsil has learned. Check all the threads in religion. He loves to attack my character and make demeaning personal remarks. Nothing to do with the discussion. All about me. It's all still there.
You were saying?
Telling you that you haven't learned enough is not demeaning your character. And the fact that you see it as demeaning of your character goes to show I was speaking the truth with regards to you needing to learn more.
As for addressing the thread is meaningless when it comes to talking to you, because you do actually demean people. Preaching is demeaning, it's not teaching as you call it.
Please don't be discouraged; it is a normal trait of the Atheists.
like normal trait of religion is to defy logic and believe ancestors who existed thousand years down the line and who wrote something without proof?
I don't believe any accounts written by ancestors; in fact I don't know if they ever wrote anything like that.
I believe the truthful Word revealed which stresses on using common sense as a very useful tool of human knowledge. It is a fact that the Word revealed promotes one's vision and reason; without it the human beings would become reason-blind.
I don't mind if the atheists share it also.
This religious identity crisis has contributed grossly against the move of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. Righteousness is a gift and not by anyone's merit. Many Christians have lost this awesome experience of God's Spirit and Power to the dirty antics of it's man made religion. The Word of God are Spirit and Life. John 6:63.
Hey earnestshub- I think I will see you in heaven. Until then, see you on the hubs.
my take on defining a christian, is it just lets you know that their belief system is based on the teaching of Jesus..... So many religions dont believe in Jesus, it helps to know if you are having a debate.
Christians : How do you define true christian?
The true Christian is who does what Jesus did and believes in what Jesus believed in; but I don't think any such Christian exists.
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