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Learning ceased with the inception of Science and religion

  1. Jefsaid profile image82
    Jefsaidposted 5 years ago

    Science and religion has led to mass social order and material advancements.  Arguably, these were necessary developments in our human evolution.  However, in either case, they have set rules to the understanding of our existence based on human decisions that have dictated these two path’s as those to which we should conform. Our clear lack of understanding of how to interact with our natural surroundings, appreciation of the effects of planetary movements in our skies and how to survive on our own two feet in the event of natural disaster are some of the things that I regard as unnerving to say the least.

    We are completely reliant on and indoctrinated by the aforementioned beliefs and controlled by a relatively small group of individuals that manipulate our every thought through media, education and law enforcement.  Religion acts as our morality and science as our fact but our true connection to reality has been beaten out of us alongside our freedom to observe it with an open mind.

    It seems to me that Humanity is approaching a ‘dead end’ in our modern virtual existence and the time approaches to re-engage with our true reality.  As we battle over the last dwindling oil reserves, struggle to feed an over populated Globe and look on helplessly at the power of Mother Nature’s retaliation, I sense that science and religion offer neither the answers nor the solutions to our continued survival.  Only in the return to the reality of our natural existence can we progress from this point onward which is a steep learning curve for many of us on this planet.

    1. 69
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Science and truthful Religion are both needed for advancement of the human life. The religion broadens our vision of life.

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Mr Jeff,
      If I could shake your hand I would.
      Very few have I met that even come close to this conclusion.

      The husband & wife ( science/religion aka The Ism ©™ ) have done quite enough and forced their wares upon mankind far too long. But, there time is up. Humanism is nearly done and the time for true humanity is on the horizon.

      The end of demigods and doctrines self, the end of experiments and techno-"logical" advances, teary-eyed mumblings beneath statues of painted clay...

      James.

      1. Jefsaid profile image82
        Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Twenty One Days - Its great to hear from some one else with their eyes wide-open.

    3. Pr0metheus profile image60
      Pr0metheusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No

    4. Mentalist acer profile image62
      Mentalist acerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Science Fiction is the only true religion.;)Praise Assimov!wink
      http://s2.hubimg.com/u/4825401.jpg

  2. Paraglider profile image88
    Paragliderposted 5 years ago

    You think that a non-scientific 'appreciation of the effects of planetary movements in our skies' is the answer? It's been tried. It's called astrology and is as useless today as it has been since its earliest beginnings.

    Religion does not 'act as our morality'. Ethics and morality should not be rooted in the supernatural.

    1. Jefsaid profile image82
      Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Straight off the blocks you express a typically blinkered scientific view.  Anything unexplainable through science is supernatural or mystical...

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seems to me you are the one with the blinkered view. Look at any population in nature. They exhibit typical boom and bust patterns - even to the point of extinction and replacement with new species.

        This is perfectly normal, natural behavior. All animals will eat and thrive until such times as they have reduced their food supply, then food becomes scarce and the population is culled through starvation.

        The crazy thing is - we are in a position to understand this and actually do something about it before nature culls us.

        Science could actually save us if we choose to use it wisely, but we need to step out of the "natural order." of things.

        Not really interested in any explanations you have for things unseen that involve esoteric knowledge - this always become religion. wink

        Stop looking at it from a personal perspective and your obvious alarm that you perceive yourself incapable of survival in the event of a natural disaster and see it from a "natural" perspective. We are animals and headed the way all animals go - adapt or die. We can choose to anticipate this though - if we can stop being selfish for a while. wink

        1. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No harm in taking benefit from science and technology to improve our life.They have come out very naturally as set by the Creator-God for our benefit.

        2. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Of course you are not interested in any explanation because you know all already.  Your wish is fulfilled, good luck!tongue

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No - I am not interested in your explanation of things unseen - because that always produces religion - even if you cannot understand that and think otherwise. But - Like all good religionists who think they have an answer - you completely ignored everything I said except for that.

            Why let a few factual observations get in the way of a good piece of revealed knowledge? lol

            1. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Stop looking at it from a personal perspective? Why must I look at it from your personal perspective?  Religionist? I am a complete non-believer.  Boom and bust in nature? What are you talking about? You are a delusional science head who cannot think outside of your indoctrination.hmm

              I have not dismissed science in my statement, I simply point out my view that I think it and religion have detached us from our original natural connections with the planet and that is where need to return... roll

      2. Paraglider profile image88
        Paragliderposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Not anything unexplainable. There are many things that science hasn't (yet) explained.

        What science doesn't attempt to explain is the wholly unobservable. After all, why should it? If something is unobservable, then it is supernatural by definition, or, more probably, simply does not exist.

        1. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Supernatural is a word not a definition and we made it up.  What has science actually achieved? Really, think about it...

          Certainly it enables us to talk over long distances on a PC, enables us to live longer for what its worth but not necessarily healthier, advised us on how to exploit and destroy the planet, helped create sophisticated weaponry to kill each other en mass etc, etc... 

          It certainly has not answered any questions on how/why we are here or where we shall end up because it has not got a clue.  I do not claim to know the answer and do not see any reason to either.  Science blinkers the mind into believing what cannot be repeated through experiment should be ignored and dismissed.  It is that failing which has taken us down a destructive path because some of the necessary answers it seeks are not mathematical or creatable in a laboratory .  What is clear is that we have become detached from our natural existence which is the only tangible purpose to our lives.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            How YOU are here? Do you not know how YOU got here?

            Why YOU are here? Have you not enough knowledge about yourself to create your purpose or meaning of life?

            Where will end up? You'll end up dead. To think you would end up anywhere else is mysticism gone awry.

            And, to your final statement with regards to YOU being detached from YOUR natural existence? If you feel unattached to nature, then I suggest you seek psychiatric help.

            Other than that- all science has to do is continue to explore reality and add new knowledge to the collective existence of the human species.

            1. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So tell me about your obvious natural connection then?  No, no, actually, let me guess?  You buy only organically grown products? sort your trash thoughtfully into the appropriate recycling bins? Use lead free petrol? Go to the park occasionally or even take walks in the countryside?

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                First off, you didn't bother answering my questions, then again you have no need to answer.
                I don't answer to you nor do I answer to nature either. Therefore it's irrelevant.

                1. Jefsaid profile image82
                  Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Your questions reinforce my point.  You see the World from a blinkered view.  All I know is that we exist and physically we are born and we die.  I cannot say if consciously that is also the case but that's another debate which will probably explode your one dimensional mind.tongue

                  Scientists suggest we came from a big bang?  That is pure speculation from looking through a telescope and making an assumption.  Religion reckons the creator created us?  What created the creator? Man, that's who.roll

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Explode my one dimensional mind? Ironically, the mind can never be one dimensional, therefore I guess it shows your own limited blinkered view. lol
                    I make no assumption and don't care what science has to say on the subject, considering it has no impact on my life. But, it is nice to see you lack faith in the human species. Good to know for future communications.
                    Those who seek out religion for answers are irresponsible and selfish.
                    I'm not interested, nor do I need to know. Just those who fail to be responsible with themselves and those in their surroundings are the people who play that game.

                    So, I guess, I could say, thank you for nothing. tongue

            2. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Mysticism?  What does that mean?

          2. Pandoras Box profile image83
            Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Just because science cannot truck with the unobservable, does not mean it is to blame for any lacking therein.

            Don't blame science for the failings of religion.

          3. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            science has achieved a whole lot more than religion

    2. 69
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why?

      It is very natural to believe in the Creator-God and the Word He revealed on the Truthful Persons called Messengers and Prophets.

      1. Paraglider profile image88
        Paragliderposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        To me, it is more natural not to.

        Ethics simply does not require a supernatural crutch. It can stand alone.

    3. Pandoras Box profile image83
      Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Religion merely stole morality and twisted it into something hugely unrecognizable as such.

  3. 0
    just_curiousposted 5 years ago

    Pessimism certainly abounds in these forums. So I don't see any harm in expressing my jaded view. Science and religion have contributed important things in making us who we are. We will need science to find the path out of this mess we've created. We'll need religion to come out of the dark ages.

    I see the problem with the world as selfishness. We in the developed nations are unwilling to accept the fact that business as usual is going to kill us all. The developing nations are unwilling to accept that to attempt to attain our lifestyle will also produce the same effect. We all want what is best for us, alone. In the short term of our lives.

    We've got to connect with our humanity, and our sense of fairness. It may be too late already, but not to try seems insane to me.

    1. dingdondingdon profile image59
      dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What do you mean by "we'll need religion to come out of the dark ages", may I ask? Do you believe we are currently in a dark age? Why?

      1. 0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        In many ways, yes.  I do not mean to offend the individual with this statement. I do think that people are basically good and intelligent.  But the primary thing I see religion standing in the way of (and this is simply Christianity, I don't know what the other two monotheistic religions' take on the end of all things is) is the ability to fix this mess.  Everyone seems to be waiting on an external solution.  I have no idea if christianity is right, but if it is not it is inhibiting the ability to face the problem head on.  We created this problem and if that mindset is in the way of a solution, it must be forced to change.  In my opinion.

        1. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It is to clear this mess that the Creator-God has sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 as a reformer being awaited by almost all revealed religions with  symbolic names like Jesus Second Coming, the Promised Messiah, Imam Mahdi, Krishna or Buddha in Second Coming; it is one reformer for the whole world with different names in differen languages and different cultures.

          He is to set right all the humanity on the right path of the Creator-God Allah YHWH with reasaonable and rational arguments, very peacefully.

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            OK.  If that's how it pans out, that will probably take care of the problem alright. smile

            However, I believe we should prepare for a different contingency.

            1. 69
              paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              And what is that contingency plan? Please, feel free to express yourself.

              Thanks

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Deleted

                1. 69
                  paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  How would you like to start to perform your moral duty or to mend our evil ways?

                  We are good listeners and encourage you.

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol you're having fun at my expense now, you think. I'm laughing too, but please keep this frame of mind. It sits well on you. smile

      2. Pandoras Box profile image83
        Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This is the zombie apocalypse.

        1. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ?

    2. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      In one of many respects, the "Dark Ages" are referred to as Bronze Age superstitious thinking. It's collapse was led on by the advent of critical thinking, logic and reason.

      How then can religion bring us out of the dark ages if it was religions that put us there in the first place? smile

      1. Jefsaid profile image82
        Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I couldn't have said it better myself...

    3. Pandoras Box profile image83
      Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Dream big, I always say.

  4. Flightkeeper profile image77
    Flightkeeperposted 5 years ago

    I disagree with the OP.  Science and religion has its good and bad but overall contributed to civilization's evoution.  Jefsaid, I think you're just focusing on all the bad things that are happening.  Tragic things have happened and will continue to happen for as long as people and the natural world exists. Good things have happened too and will continue to happen, they just don't get a lot of publicity.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Flightkeeper, I don't think you completely understood the OP. No offense intended, but it's not the bad or good that the OP is talking about.

      For the sake of argument, read James' post...the post right before yours. See, if you understand that one. Again, no offense intended. hmm

      1. Jefsaid profile image82
        Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Cagsil - You totally get my point.

  5. HattieMattieMae profile image70
    HattieMattieMaeposted 5 years ago

    hmm...well man.... is usually the culprit not God. Man runs religions. We are the ones that interpret the message, live it out. We are the ones that breed war and destruction. It is not God! But man that leads other's astray.  I will never take the excuse that God created world's problems whether it be religion, or of any other nature. We are to blame for our own actions, behaviors, and responsibility in creating what we have as we have lead religion, we have lead the chruch, we have lead wars, we have lead genocide. Did you see God actually doing it himself. We divide ourselves among the faith, and very few and inbetween actually live out the example, and even those that try their best are still fallible. It is human nature.

  6. HattieMattieMae profile image70
    HattieMattieMaeposted 5 years ago

    It's a matter of doing things our own way, not God's way!

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hattie, Agreed. Self-made morals does not seem to be working well at all. Others constantly say that people can fix their own mess. Doing things God's way is how things get accomplished.

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What happened there? I thought Hattie said the opposite to woman of courage? smile

  7. stclairjack profile image80
    stclairjackposted 5 years ago

    how do you argue that religion AND sciance have led us all to our doom,.... agnosticism,... i'm ok with it if you are,.... to each his own.

    1. Jefsaid profile image82
      Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Doom! That's a strong word.  However, I don't know whether you have noticed the pressures being placed on our planet?

      1. stclairjack profile image80
        stclairjackposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        its like saying that a wrench can be used to fix a race car or to club some one over the head,... science is a tool,.... man uses science as it suits him, sometimes with no thought to the long term impacts of his actions,... in the end,... man owns the success as well as the failures,... we did it,... science did not ruin us,.... religion did not ruin us,.... we ruined ourselves,... and i hope at some point humanity learns to take the tools and fix our mess on the large scale.

        other wise, we will continue to blame the tool rather than the mechanic for the earthly machine that no longer runs as it should,.... like the fork made me fat.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol

          1. stclairjack profile image80
            stclairjackposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            i had an over whelming desire to use the gun refference here but i resisted,... i'm going to reward myself with a cookie now. ha!

            1. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well, that's a bit of a ramble and like so much of our species, it then comes down the gun...

              Your poor indoctrinated thing! roll

            2. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              We started from a natural, spiritual existence where we took what we needed, respected nature as our provider and gave back what we did not.  Now we just simply take and give nothing back.  It cannot go on forever and looking at the spiteful battles between religious denominations and the money oriented ego of scientific development, I do not see either as a solution. Both indoctrinate us with the belief that we are uniquely special and somewhat invulnerable when we are not. 

              We simply need to go back to the true purpose of our existence and reconnect with our natural surroundings. And yes! The consequences of not doing so could be devastating.

        2. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I don't think it was the 'fork' it was most probably the genetically modified beef burgers. big_smile

          1. Jefsaid profile image82
            Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Or the cookies! lol

        3. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          We created science and we created religion.  Both have directed us over the last couple of thousand years and dictated the way we think and that is my point!

          1. stclairjack profile image80
            stclairjackposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            science and religion do not dictate the way that i think,,.....speak for yourself,.... unless that is, you mean that i carefuly observe my world, and based on those observations and also on experimentation i then come to conclusions as to how i might want to contend with any number of situations in my life,.... ok,... my bad.... i am the victim of the scientific process,.... NOT.

            the blame game is the worst deffence of ones own poor actions, and victimhood has become the latest lame trophy in our increasingly self destructive culture,...

            people will never own a success untill they own the failures that got them there.

            i say again,...." we did it,... science did not ruin us,.... religion did not ruin us,.... we ruined ourselves,... "

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yep its that old theory ,but a sure one called cause and effect ,or accountibilty .

              Well said smile

            2. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              stclairjack - I agree with your view that we are the accountable.  However, I think that part of our problem is humanity has evolved to see things from a religious/scientific perspective and drifted away from our original natural and somewhat spiritual roots where we lived within natures balance.  We no longer do so and are ravaging the planet at a rate faster than it can recover.

              The answer to stopping it seems fairly straightforward, live with and respect mother nature as we originally did.  That does need any scientific know how or religious prayer, we just need to get and do it.  We are no more special or unique and are as vulnerable as every other living thing on this planet so lets get back to our humble obligation.

              1. stclairjack profile image80
                stclairjackposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                i agree with the need to do this, but i would assert that humans need science even on its lowest levels,... the phisics of a lever or fulcrum,... or stones would never be moved to plow a field,.... and the agricultural science required to grow food is needed or removing the stone is useless,.... and i dont think you envisioned man kind as returning to a hunter gatherer way of life.

                most importantly, you advocate removing not only science but also prayer from the equation,..... without science you will find society falling back into superstition,.... and that is hardley what you had in mind i am sure.

                what i'm trying to say is that while i'm all for enchoraging people to get back to and renew thier respect for nature,.... you cant begin to do that in any positive way untill you aknowledge the nature of man himself.

                man kind is a curious questioning creature,.... he seeks answers,... and if he does not have science to provide those answers,... then he will look to superstion to provide them,... the human brain abhors a blank space in knowledge, and it will fill in the blank by any means needed,.... its part of our being human,.... we question and seek,......

                and that is what makes humans indeed unique among the carbon based life forms,..... wether we choose to accept the responsability of our uniqeness or not.

                1. Jefsaid profile image82
                  Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Superstition, spiritualism, mysticism...  These are all derogatory words created by scientists to explain those things that they cannot measure.  Realism I think is the overriding meaning.

                  I have not dismissed science as part of our evolution nor its ability to contribute to our future.  However, the scientific minded have great difficulty in accepting the non-scientific theories on life which I believe are equally if not more important than technological advancement.  Until this realisation takes place, we move further towards virtual rather than true reality.

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Define true reality?

  8. Pandoras Box profile image83
    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago

    Of course, sometimes you're just wrong.

  9. Pandoras Box profile image83
    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago

    Jefsaid. What you're reviling there isn't science. It's capitalism.

    I could tell you you're a dreamer, but then again, you're not the only one.

    You are however hugely outnumbered by the extremely powerful and in charge powers that be. They'll never let you take down capitalism.

    I understand what you're saying mostly, but you and twentyone with your mystical BS don't seem to realize that all either of you ever seem to advocate is in fact the making of a new religion. Only for some reason you guys seem to think it's okay, because it's your religion you have in mind, your own unfounded theories of the unknowable.

    To heck with that. All this spiritualism without religion everyone wants to claim these days is just as false and decidedly pointless as the old religions, and made in the same way. I should now lay down the opinions of long dead sheepherders and take up the opinions of jefsaid!

    Not gonna happen.

    What I think you mean, once you let go of your spiritualism chase, is that we need to bring ethics back to the forefront and philosophy, but not that old muddled up speculation half-based on ancient religions anyway, but a new philosophy, a clear philosophy that is based on the observable.

    We don't need to claim to know things we don't, or to feel things we don't, in order to embrace a new/very old morality.

    We just need to defeat the capitalists.

    And gosh, really? We all just don't understand? I despise that kind of thinking that refuses to look at itself. When everyone (except 21) disagrees with you, it's time to reconsider your conclusions. Not change them, reconsider them. Cause guess what? Sometimes you're wrong.

    Science makes no attempt to change peoples' thinking, to impose any ideology. It has rules, which deal only with science, not with life in general. Science has long maintained that it holds no place in that realm of life.

    Your gripes against it all seem misdirected to me. Eliminate science instead of unfettered capitalism, and you still have the same problems, with no hope of discovering solutions.

    1. Jefsaid profile image82
      Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Everyone except 21 are precisely the blinkered thinkers to which I refer.  The ratio is probably representative across the planet.  You only reinforce my point with your reference to 'spiritual BS' which emphasises your indoctrinated narrow mindedness.  The mind operates within the limitations of its user.

      Like defending some religious cult, you science heads get all hot under the collar when your views are challenged or when faced with observing anything beyond the boundaries of your embedded indoctrination.   Those who have a greater breadth of thinking are not burdened with the same issues of seeing your scientific or religious point of view.

      Eliminate science? Your getting a bit carried away aren't you?  Where did I say that?  Capitalism is a social ideology derived from Christianity...smile

      The point I make is that neither prayer nor sophisticated scientific tools are required for us to slow down our ravaging of our planet.  We simply need to get back to our original more humble existence.  It's not rocket science...roll

      1. Pandoras Box profile image83
        Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh jeepers, tit for tat, here we go. Cuz like, I have nothing better to do than waste time trying to reason with people whose ears are closed and whose minds are all tightly wrapped around their own little opinion.

        Your spiritualism kick is cute, and I have nothing against it, it's a free world. It is my hope that when all you people claim to possess some deep nonreligious spiritualism you're really just referring to a common introspective ability, perhaps an interest in death philosophy, I'll even leave you alone with your reincarnation and flying immaterial final incarnation spiritual revelations, whatever.

        The rest of us don't need spiritualism to access or stimulate our thought processes. I understand that some of you do, as well as a healthy load of feel-good. Go for it, man, if it gets you through.

        You've challenged nobody's view. Sorry, I know you wish to think you have, but your position is totally insupportable, unfounded and just plain old dumb.

        You've misidentified the causes of your problem. You've misunderstood science, come to the wrong conclusions and besides everything that everyone else has been trying to tell you, you're just not dealing with reality.

        We need to move forward, hon. I know, it's scary out there. But that's no reason to go running back to the cave. Look it up.

        1. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You make a lot of assumptions and have your World upside down.  Ones knowledge is within as is ones connection to everything around us.  Quantum Physics is even starting to recognise it.  You seem to have a problem, I am totally satisfied with my views on life.  I am not challenging anyone's view particularly, just expressing mine. 

          I think your views on 'spiritualism' for want of a better word is pure ignorance.  To me, it is simply the connection with the real World as opposed to the man-made one.  It has nothing to do with religion and cannot be explored in a laboratory which would be like trying to perceive ones own perception.  It is integral to our existence and our being so alas, it relies purely on experience and not experiment.

          I guess the closest thing I can describe it to for the uninitiated is probably like a moment when you feel your death is imminent.  At that point, materialism and ego go out the window and only your true purpose to life becomes important.

          1. Pandoras Box profile image83
            Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Huh. Hmmmm. Naw, still not making any rational sense to me.

            I know I'm just the uninitiated and all, but I don't see that status ever changing. Cause I don't get any of this stuff so many of you claim, or much of buddhism either.

            But wait! I also don't get the perfectly obvious! Swear I don't. Miss it all the time. And yet I have the chutzpah to consider myself discerning.

            I have been on the verge of death a couple of times, as it happens, once physically with you know, actual bodily injury and once with just a very dang strong threat of imminent bodily injury and basically decimation. Neither time did my life nor my secret mystical purpose appear before my eyes or flash across my mind. The only thing I was thinking was something that I reckon could best be expressed as hell no.

            1. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "Hell no" is the experience.  Glad to know that you survived.

              1. Pandoras Box profile image83
                Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Actually you're right. That could have been the purpose of my life flashing across my mind. Cause I've been arguing with people ever since. big_smile


                Actually not true. Took me a few years more to develop this level of charm.


                So okay, my above attempt at humor aside, why the heck would that be a state to which I would want to return?

            2. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "Absolute Truth"<~Here it is James!  lol  Damn PB, the truth is so easy, isn't it?  No mystical BS, just what it is!  smilesmilesmile

              1. Jefsaid profile image82
                Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                We can measure which side of the brain reacts, why we sweat, what we think etc.. But we cannot measure the experience.  That is what spirituality explores.  It is integral to our consciousness and yes, in scientific terms it is invisible.  But it exists and just because it cannot be physically captured does not mean it does not exist.roll

                1. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  tangible v intangible
                  optic v non-optic
                  physical v spiritual

                  But actually they are all the same, from two perspectives/expressions.

                2. 0
                  Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  enjoyment of an 'experience', a 'feeling' of a 'high' is why a lot of people take drugs and/or seek the supernatural

                  1. Jefsaid profile image82
                    Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Supernatural? You love that word. It's like saying 'no scientific evidence'.  Not everything comes with a formula or is tangible in scientific terms.  Unfortunately, you will just have to live with that notion no matter how difficult that is for you to perceive.

                3. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Just because we cannot measure the experience now, doesn't mean we will never be able to.  Spirituality is a form of self hypnosis, just like every other religion/mysticism belief. 

                  It makes one feel good to think they get it while others don't.  A common thing here on these forums.  Psychics, ghost fans, fortune tellers, philosopher wannabes, witches, and the list goes on.  The rest are mostly people who are honest with themselves and happy with it.  smile

                  1. Jefsaid profile image82
                    Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Spirituality has nothing to do with religion except for those who can only see in black and white...wink

                  2. Pandoras Box profile image83
                    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Plus those who chat with god. Used to do it, and for some time I did believe it was real.

                    Then one day god told me the truth. My own personal revelation. He'd been building up to it anyways all along. When I was ready he told me the truth. I was sitting on the bed in my room talking to myself. No I mean that's what God said to me. He said "The truth is you're sitting here talking to yourself."

                    I instantly knew he was right. (Praise God, Hallelujah!) It was a mystical experience. I still get chills up and down my spine just thinking about it.

                    It's all a matter of who/what you've been feeding on. So now all I eat is chocolate. smile

                  3. Jefsaid profile image82
                    Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Randy - You have a great imagination. lol  You talk with such authority about things you actually know nothing about and just jump to ludicrous conclusions.  You have confessed you do not believe in spiritual/mystical stuff, so surely you should just stick with what you believe in and stop trying to kid yourself that you know anything about it.  You seem to have a lot to say about  'simple things' as you put it. lol

                4. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The only spirituality the human species needs to understand is love. Our consciousness isn't spiritual in nature. Our consciousness is level higher than nature, but still limited due to other factors.

                  We, as a species understand love on an individual level, every single person knows it on some level. The issues are derived from communication/language and choice. In other words, politicking between people.

                  It's absurd. The foundation is compromise and will not be reached until superstition such as spirituality of the mystic sense is made to go away. What created human species was energy. Where did that energy come from? or did something put the energy in to play?

                  The mystics route is to say something put the energy into it's specific form to purposely create the human species. The human species is a by-product of the consciousness energy of the Universe and special in aspect yes, but not divinity.

                  There is no specific need for a creator/god, except for fear. Those who "defined" creator/god are the theologians, so as to control the masses, advocate a higher authority who should control the masses through a morality scaled directive.

                  It's unfortunate for the world today is those who practice it are no moral than the average person, it's a self-absorbed position of higher morals, which cannot ever be, in a civilization of humans(who are flawed). The problem is rights.

                  It's ironic that religion preaches rights are a Creator/god given, yet doesn't actually want those rights equaled and will not compromise. Dictatorship the only option if it comes from religion.

                  1. Pandoras Box profile image83
                    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Love's a good philosophy. That's what I want -- love-fettered free markets. I think love-fettered free markets would work well.

                    Eh, I guess we all have our dreams.

                5. Pandoras Box profile image83
                  Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Experiences exist. Relish them, sure. Seek out more, I'm with ya. But that's about as far as I can go.

              2. Pandoras Box profile image83
                Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                big_smile

                Works for me, dude!

                1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Deed it does, PB!  Very well, too!  smile

  10. 0
    just_curiousposted 5 years ago

    Don't listen to the nay sayers. This is a good plan. You should forge ahead. We can work the kinks out along the way. smile

  11. TahoeDoc profile image94
    TahoeDocposted 5 years ago

    What if you had to give up all of the religious advances of the last 2000 years vs. the scientific advances of the last 2000 years? What would you choose?

    1. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wow! The cancer op that was invented by medical scientists who saved my life in 1996 with a new highly scientific process?
      Or a belief in an entity that is invisible and a no show?

      Let me think for a micro second! smile

      1. TahoeDoc profile image94
        TahoeDocposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly, although my work schedule would be a lot lighter smile

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Mine too come to think of it. All the new vehicles run computers,  Lawrence Krauss keeps finding new ways to explain the universe that I still don't understand, the sea keeps giving up life secrets as we use science to go deeper longer, it never ends. I want another 100 years to fit some of it in. smile
          Maybe I'll try religion. smile

          1. Jefsaid profile image82
            Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Why not try spirituality or so called 'mysticism'.  It might expand your mind beyond TV documentaries. big_smile

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Would it be possible to give your view, without putting down anothe point of view I wonder?


        Then again, the styles beginning to rub off on me ,I might try it lol

        1. Jefsaid profile image82
          Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It certainly gets the juices flowing...wink

        2. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          you're already practised at it!

        3. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Just answering the question honestly. smile

      3. Jefsaid profile image82
        Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It is the selfish view of us humans that we merit prolonging our lives over and above the time nature intended.  That is why the planet becomes more crowded with us and less with everything else as we eliminate anything that hinders our precious ever-expanding space.  It cannot go on forever and science or praying to some invisible god aint gonna help.  It is simply common sense that we need to return to being humble and living within life's natural cycle.

        1. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          what is the 'time nature intended'?  Did nature have any intentions?

          Let's do away with modern medicine but keep religion.

          Can wipe out all the diabetics, those with allergies, cancer survivors and the majority of those with a depressive disorder.   Have at least a quarter of children die in childhood from preventable diseases.  Also, all the women who would have died in during/after childbirth.

          The religious will say that those that people died young because of sin.  Many religious sects also promote having large families

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Let's do away with both sides of the Ism.
            Too long, this couple has destroyed humanity by saying it was helping humanity. The hunter --the masculine-- provides the kill (titled science) the other --the feminine-- cooks it up for the masses to eat (titled religion).

            doesn't anyone get that "science" by definition and action IS the founder and fodder of all theology ? End science and you will definitely end religion --I guarantee it.

            James.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              since when did science precede religion?

              Before science, the religious believed the sun went around the earth & sickness was from curses

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, she didn't. He thought the earth was flat, earth revolved around the sun and many other things.
                It was science who hunted for metal and 'discovered' what clay was, what fire was, how to put them together and make bricks.
                Science taught how to slaughter animals and shave stones, minerals, etc to make shiny things, altars, temples.
                Science dug up the dead and dissected both the dead AND the living, to form other sciences plus hung those parts on walls or in temperature controlled rooms for viewing pleasure or further dissection.

                All these he gave to her as gifts to keep her happy, like any husband would. She would cook up the kill he brought her, the offering.
                Science fashioned the tools of everything man made and each time his wife rejoiced in his discoveries.
                His work helped build her Gardens of Babylon, the Pantheon and even the Eiffel Tower, The (now renamed) Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge.
                Science fashioned every known weapon on earth and taught his wife how to fight. and when their power grew great, they --together-- made war against the other couples who had different tools, weapons and wares.

                Science is the father --and also the fodder-- of all sensationalism.

                Remove science and you have no weapons or war --at least not to any major degree but rocks and sticks.
                Remove science and you have no temples inlaid with gold and precious stones.
                Remove science and not one "preacher would exist or gather a crowd bigger than 20 pp in a parking lot.
                Remove science and no churches would exist or banks to house refined gold and paper currency.
                Remove science and you'd have no paper or ink for religion to scribble texts in fancy ways and call it the absolute words of truth.
                Remove science and you have no astrology, warlock-witchcraft, juju, magic potions that go bang and make pretty colors or make you see ten foot tall spotted rabbits and things.

                Remove science, and you have no religion. Sciences release from monotony IS religion. Remove science and the many sects of that monotony (titled religions/theism) could not and would not last a day.



                PS Randy!
                -I rolled out of chair when I read your reply!
                That is EXACTLY what every and all religions say. They are the Truth.
                If you are --they aren't; if they are, you aren't.
                I think neither of you are in any form the Truth.
                That is wisdom (philos).
                Science and Sensation are definitely not philosophies, else they wouldn't be doing what they do so well and claiming absolute power. smile

                James.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  So living without any advancement is what you consider moving forward? hmm

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    hmm,

                    -headache cure 1 point; adverse side effects -46 points
                    -radiation to cure cancer +1000 point; countless adverse side effects -5000 points
                    -bullets...
                    -canons...
                    -anthrax...
                    -lead pencils...
                    -cell phones...
                    --microwaves, computers, etc causing brain cancer.
                    --Chernobyl, Ukraine, Fukushima Japan, 3 Mile Island, New York.

                    --the
                    a. 50 million dollar (made by science)
                    b. mega 25,000 square foot church (made by science)
                    c. private jet (made by science --and the fuel also)
                    d. Multiple Rolls Royce (made by science )
                    e. Penthouse NYC Apartment (made by science and bloomberg)
                    e. Television (made by science)
                    ministry --of JUST one minister of religion ( made by science!);

                    Plus all the electronic items like microphones, lights, cameras, etc and all the machines in between.


                    However, there is one good advancement:
                    -indoor plumbing +50000 POINTS; adverse effects 0 !!!!
                    woo-hoo Science!

                    lol

                    James

                2. Pandoras Box profile image83
                  Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  What you claim as science clearly isn't, and never was.

                  Science does not claim absolute power.

                  Science does not represent itself as The Truth.

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure it does --at least on HP.

                    But it wasn't me who said science is the founder of truth, Randy Goldwin did, I was just responding in kind.

                    BTW, what I said science is, IT IS. How else can you define all the things I mentioned, as coming from science, from fish hooks to Museums? All of it is Science.
                    Technology is science; Bibles are science and contain scientific methods, experiments, recipes, stories, and more. Architecture is science. Weapons are science; Engineering is science; Red-Pill, Blue-Pill, little Purple Pill is science...

                    ..its all science, dear.

                    James.

                3. 0
                  Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  science is not discovering fire; it's understanding fire.  Science is about understanding how things work, not finding things to use.  Astrology is not science

            2. Pandoras Box profile image83
              Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Religion isn't science and never was. It's philosophy at best.

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I see 21 days has a degree in philosophy.  I have a degree in science. What 21days claims is science is not

            3. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No. Superstition is the founder of all religions.  Science is the founder of all truth.  Don't you get that?  smile

          2. Jefsaid profile image82
            Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Baileybear - My suggestion is that both science and religion (I am not religious) have positioned humans as uniquely important when life is the true reality, not people.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Life is certainly an amazing concept.  Humans do seem to rate themselves above other life - religion more than science, I think, as religionists get upset when they are told they are animals.  I don't find it upsetting at all to consider humans as animals - I like animals - they haven't learnt to be as manipulating or devious as humans.

              Humans just have a bigger brain and have learnt to think - started off with superstition and then developed into science/rational thinking.  But if humans are smart, they would take care of Earth better and treat animals better.

              1. Jefsaid profile image82
                Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Totally with you on that and suggest re-visiting our connection to nature is a step towards that achievement.

                1. 0
                  Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  you want your mystical experience with nature - plenty of hallucinogenic substances in nature

  12. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    Gosh we cant even follow 10 Commandments ,how on earth how we ever gonna get to another planet wink

  13. Apostle Jack profile image60
    Apostle Jackposted 5 years ago

    I think personal opinions is more harmful than religion.Everyone is trying to get to the same place at the same time.Integrity.
    Those that believe or disbelieve both seek a good end result in life.

  14. Pandoras Box profile image83
    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago

    Randy said science brings us truths, not The Truth. That was just your twist on it.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Randy Goldwin said: Sorry, no twist by me.
      But, it proves my point more --all religions need defending meaning all the sects of the science need defending else they defect to another sect that fits their quo. Jumping from one equation to another sensation in search of. vis-à-vis, c`est la vie, tete-a-tete, a twoseater motor cycle. Just depends on which is driving and who is in the side seat at the moment.

      Sad really, just plain sad.

      smile

      1. Pandoras Box profile image83
        Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Science brings us all truths is a lot different than science is The Truth. I think anyone would have thought he meant all factual knowledge, not THE ULTIMATE TRUTH WE'VE ALL BEEN FIGHTING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 4000 YEARS which are really just opinions.

        Big diff. That was your words, your interpretation. Why you don't want to admit what anyone can see and is besides a minor point is beyond me.

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Precisely, Pandora, "fighting".
          6,000 years of a lovers quarrel, an estranged couple.
          The "ultimate truth" equation and sensation are searching for, cannot and will not be found by human methods. This is why "titled:science" and "titled:religion" have no truth in them. None.

          And top it off with no real value of life, no honor, no morals. Else neither would fight or war or dissect innocent animals, plants and other humans just to "discover" that "ultimate truth", be it in labs of shiny steel and glass or roasting them on altars of polished marble beneath painted desert moons.

          I clearly know my intent, made it plain and have no reason to sit here and accept either sides view, by their presentation. The "sidecar sally show" over the last x-thousand years has proven it over and over and over. Neither has a clue and the things they call clues aren't clues or facts or anything valuable to humanity. Those things are only valuable to the "opinions" themselves. What a waste of fighting, "time" and enjoyable creations...

          1. Pandoras Box profile image83
            Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I grant you the ethical question regarding animal experimentation. But can hardly bemoan the zebra fish (of which I am very fond and actually keep myself) when I conduct regular genocide on flies and spiders all summer long.   

            Science itself doesn't seek to discover the Ultimate Truth. Am I missing something somewhere? Does science somewhere proclaim such a mission statement? The only people who seek ultimate truth are spiritualists. Science itself isn't interested in their world, it's interested in our's.

            Science doesn't start wars either. Nobody ever went to war over conflicting lab results.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              science is about curiosity

            2. Jefsaid profile image82
              Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Your missing the point.  Science is a human creation.  Science absolutely seeks to find the mathematical formula to life and proclaim to know the facts.  It has been responsible for our material advancement and understanding of the components of our World but in reality, are we any better off?  I would suggest not.

              I think we are at a stage so far from our true reality that we have almost forgotten that we are simply part of the existence around us.  Spiritualists do not seek the truth, they simply see it...

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                yes, science is a human creation.  So is religion.

                Yes, we are more comfortable these days - more access to food, less superstitious.  Also more pollution etc.  But one could say that is driven by consumerism rather than science.

                Science used to be about curiosity & discovery.  Now it seems more about technology & less about science - making sure everyone has their appetite for the latest and best of everything is attended to.

                What is 'the truth'?  Escape from reality?  Trying to find more meaning in our lives? One can only escape from reality for so long, whether by religion or drugs.  I don't look for 'the truth', as I doubt it exists.  Instead, I welcome truths.

                1. Jefsaid profile image82
                  Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Again you seek a scientific answer to a non-scientific question.  I am forced to use a scientific word 'Truth' as there is no language to describe the experience of something that is, because it is not measurable. 

                  I think it is the not measurable bit that you cannot get your head around.

                  Anyway, I will need to pick up on any further comments tomorrow as the birds are singing outside.  I have enjoyed the debate. smile

                  1. 0
                    Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    truth is a scientific word?  News to me (and I have a science degree).  'The Truth' is a religious term

              2. Pandoras Box profile image83
                Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yeh okay. I swear I'm trying. I read it over and over again and it still doesn't make any sense. To me. I cannot see it.

                Of course there are some half-truths in what you speak, or minor points of common knowledge that don't necessarily seem to lend any support to the statements surrounding them, but that's pretty standard.

                See it's like you're speaking another language. Even worse than members of certain religions or political parties. But I've studied them, and gave up easily on mysticism.

                If you can convince me, so be it. So far I don't even begin to comprehend.

                It may be hopeless. sad

              3. Pandoras Box profile image83
                Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I agree we are a part of the existence around us. I think that's common knowledge.

                1. Jefsaid profile image82
                  Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I could not resist one last comment.  I seek not to convince you because only you can have the experience.  I think science serves a purpose and is certainly more useful and honest than religion which I find completely spurious. I just feel there is another element in our lives that is so integral to our consciousness that we take it completely for granted. 

                  There is a book by Fritjof Kapra called the 'Tao of Physics' that you might like to read because it touches on a connection between science (Quantum Physics) and Eastern Mysticism.  I don't suggest it will change your life but it is fascinating reading nonetheless...

                  1. 0
                    Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm sure the religionists on here will be ready to convert you. You are obviously seeking 'meaning' in your life other than your tangible existence

                  2. Pandoras Box profile image83
                    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I enjoy fascinating reading. Though I tend to take it all with a grain or two (or more as needed) of salt, and honestly I'm not fascinated by mysticism anymore.

                    But maybe I'll look it up. I keep encountering you guys, it may be good to better my understanding so as to help some with the language barrier.

                    If nothing else, it'll help me more quickly tell you why I think you're wrong. smile

                    But maybe not. I have bigger fish to fry, and money to make, science products to buy.... important stuff like that.

  15. Beelzedad profile image59
    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago

    What believers fail to understand is that science is merely a process of understanding the world around us.

    Sure, Einstein discovered the relationship between energy and matter, a discovery that has been used to create many worthwhile things.

    On the flip side, it has also been used to create nuclear devices to drop on cities.

    In other words, believers should be addressing the issues of dropping nuclear devices on cities rather than demeaning a process of understanding.

    Or, they can go back to living in caves. smile

  16. Pandoras Box profile image83
    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago

    I agree they're both caves. Can't play no more today. Have good weekend.

  17. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    I think the smart people got smarter, and the dumb people just got dumber lol

  18. Pandoras Box profile image83
    Pandoras Boxposted 5 years ago

    That. All that. And well said.

  19. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    Ray, I am signing off for tonight --eyes are tired. I will respond to your post though.

    Thanks,

    James.

  20. Fx777 profile image60
    Fx777posted 5 years ago

    Your belief is your belief, nobody can take that. But, if you believed in God, nothing will lose with you, except that there's an additional feelings that could formed into your heart. We are living here on earth with purpose.

    1. Jefsaid profile image82
      Jefsaidposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Fx777 - Not sure what you mean by 'nothing will lose you'?

      1. Druid Dude profile image60
        Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        100% unadulterated BULL PUCKEY!

  21. findandshop profile image60
    findandshopposted 5 years ago

    Back in the 70s my western civilization professor refused to except a paper I authored surmising that religious power helped to precipitate the fall of the Egyptian Empire. I still don't understand why except maybe it offended her.
    Today parents who don't become involved and The No Child Left Behind bureaucracy have hindered learning as much as the teachers union. Because of union policies school principles are unable to fire BAD TEACHERS!
    Our schools are turning into drop out factories.

 
working