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Roadblock to Theism

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    just_curiousposted 5 years ago

    This place is a great sounding board, and an invaluable place to quickly find alternative thoughts and ideas.  So, I'm very interested in ideas on this topic.

    I've heard the question 'Where did god come from?' It seemed an impossible question to answer and, frankly, pointless to ponder past the fun of it.  I never realized it was more of a question of what did god come from, so I've never thought about it.  I find this question a brick wall against the idea of theism.

    Nothing cmoes from nothing.  He coldn't have just appeared perfect.  He could only have evolved to a state of our idea of perfection, or have been made in that state by something else. 

    I'm not concerned over whether anytning made the universe.  The roadblock I have is that whatever the origin of the universe, if it is by some sentient hand, it can't be called god.  We may not know the answers, but we have the capacity to learn them; so if there is something more it can't reasonably be labeled god. Wise and powerful maybe.  Something worthy of respect and honor.  Not something to worship.

    I would love anyone's thoughts on this.  I would appreciate unemotional ones.

    I should probably lay down some ground rules:

    Christians; yes, I know, heresy.  The fires of hell await me for asking this.  Do me a favor.  Offer a reasonable rebuttal that I can think about.

    Atheists;  No Woohoo moments please.  Another one hasn't yet bitten the dust.  Try to rebut the rebuttals without an emothional element, please.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds to me as though you are beginning to think logically, and are coming to the only rational conclusion.

      As you correctly conclude - a god is logically impossible.

      Not sure what you wish to discuss - the theists will claim that their god exists outside of logic and reason, so you cannot expect a "reasonable" rebuttal.

      "Majik" is the answer you will receive.

      But - good to see all that flailing around claiming unfathomable knowledge has ceased.

      Welcome to the dark side, Obi Wan. wink

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/66856

      Saves you some time.

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        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        See, that's my problem. A little voice told me you'd be the first to respond. smile I wandered over to that thread you gave the link and checked it out.

        No no no. Under no circumstances will I agree with pcunix. It's against everything I hold dear. lol

        That goes for one or two other prominent nay sayers. You're special though. you recommend excellent reading material.

        1. hanging out profile image61
          hanging outposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          for those who cannot believe in magic or miracles it is quite irrational and contradicting to make people come to a conclusion that magic is the answer. This is just manipulation. Since there is no magic, magic cannot be the answer and they are stumped so they make one up and purport it to be true. Such as marks response.
          The problem with people like mark is they are limited inside a little box they call reality. It is even a smaller box than the box we believers are said to be placed into.
          For an entity who resides outside time and our physical plane but is not exempt from entering or indeed, living in our plane, invisibly and with power we need to humble ourselves (another atheist stumbling block). Here is where we need to accept the reality that other dimensions or another plane (as i like to phrase it) does exist. To say it doesnt is part of a very small limited thinking box called stupidity.
          My answer is continued in another post by me in this thread

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            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I like this idea. It makes sense. I like the humble yourself comment. I can see that, the worship I was having trouble with. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. smile

            1. Beelzedad profile image62
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              lol

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                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Are you capable of saying anything helpful? Or is ridicule all you can post?

                1. aka-dj profile image79
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I see your conclusions are the same as mine, about this person! hmm

                2. Beelzedad profile image62
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  When nonsense, magic, insults and threats are all that comes from believers words, ridicule is the only thing that can be offered in light of logic or reason, which is well beyond a believers conceptual capacity to understand. smile

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                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Alright. Thanks for the help.

                  2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Everyone gets it.
                    Question is why persist with something that doesnt work?

                  3. brotheryochanan profile image61
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    now ridicule is offered in light of reason or logic.
                    interesting
                    sound of the buzzer again on this one.

                    ridicule is hardly a substitute for logic or reason unless the person offering this is infantile, bored or just out to destroy.
                    This is where you are in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over your head and so many times you are shown to be drowning in limited thought and repetitious jargon.
                    When christian questions are asked; the limited thinker, the person in the box of reality, the one who has no room for miracles; can only be silent, because to argue with only half the ammo or half the understanding or in other words to be totally unequipped to debate on the christian level is just insanity being insane. For instance i don't go into a thread about quantum physics and ridicule them, even though quantum physics, i think, is still an unproven theory, perhaps i am wrong, the point is, out of respect and i myself realizing i am unequipped to debate in this arena, i stay clear. This makes me a nice(r) person than those who constantly feel of higher moral (in an atheistic  manner) to digress and interfere and impute functions of talky talk, where those rude people are both 'bound by duty to do so' and quite inept.
                    this is proven by the definition of insanity itself: something being done exactly the same way, repeatedly, over and over again, with hope for a different result.
                    welcome to your world beely
                    uhoh.. whats that ... the sound of a buzzer.  Quick run to Disneyland  smile

          2. Beelzedad profile image62
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Believers invoke magic into their beliefs regardless of what anyone thinks.



            That's what we keep trying to tell you but you continue to invoke it, anyways.



            It is understandable that believers aren't interested in reality, that is why they continue to invoke magic.



            Yes, you invoke magic.



            Hilarious. You're claiming it's stupid to not believe in magic.

            Notice you said "(as i like to phrase it)" - in other words, you're just making up magic as you go along. Priceless! lol

            1. hanging out profile image61
              hanging outposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              hmmm priceless.

              i think i hear the sound of a buzzer again

              how much is priceless? by definition it should be without price. price unending. cant be priced.

              how about eternal life... without end, cant have an end, unending.
              seems we have a natural comparison for a spiritual situation.

              magic does exist if this is what God does. Magic as man knows magic does not exist. It is not genuine. Yes we believe in (Gods) magic because we are not limited in our thoughts and because god sed

              yep theres the sound of the buzzer.
              My response was to mark (again you have to use the boldly typed THIS word to see who responded to what) You seemingly did not get or understand the portent of my post. So i will leave you with that and just give you another buzzer sound for sounding more obscure than usual.
              Get some sleep buddy
              nite

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                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                see you're posting as your sockpuppet again.  Rather dishonest

              2. Beelzedad profile image62
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, I understand you are unable to distinguish between them.



                Embracing delusion is not limited in thought, but limited in thinking entirely.

      2. superwags profile image81
        superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not even going to invoke the word "god" because it's not necessary - you should know my thoughts on "Him" by now anyway.

        The basic answer is that we don't know what caused the universe to come into existence. We just know that it did; 13.7 billion years ago from a point of infinite mass.

        You can use maths to present hypotheses as to what came before the big bang, but you can't really back these hypotheses with observations because all of the light - our messanger - came from the big bang.   

        Obviously theism fails to explain any of this because they didn't know it had happened when they wrote their central mantras. Interesting, the big bang inspired rather an upsurge in people pointing out that this must be god. I guess because scientists have used the dreaded words "we don't know" - a sentence into which god must automatically rushes!

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I understand how the word god came into existence. My problem is our definition of the word. Like you said. We don't know the answers as to the ultimate origin. Maybe we'll find the knowledge to create universes. It won't make us gods. Not by my definition, anyway.

          1. superwags profile image81
            superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I think god is used by the modern world - and the ancient world for that matter - to describe the driving force behind something that we don't understand. It's human nature it would appear - it happens all over the world and has throughout history.

            Where there is uncertainty, god rushes in!

            Even very famous scientists (and atheists) invoke the term sometimes;

            "If we do discover a theory of everything...it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would truly know the mind of God" (Stephen Hawking)

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          jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why you want to dress up another creationism? the big bang?

          1. superwags profile image81
            superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Jomine, Jomine, Jomine, Jomiiiiiine - found a mention of the only subject you like to discuss? "Can you take a couple of hours out of your day to define the following....".

            Good spot, by the way.

      3. Beelzedad profile image62
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The early universe was nothing more than a hot ocean of radiation. When we break this down, we find it is little more than energy, which can be broken down further into two types; Potential (stored energy) and Kinetic (energy at work).

        Energy is always conserved, however it can be borrowed from a source but not necessarily has to be returned to the source. It does still have to made accountable. With this simple example, we can formulate theories as to how the universe came about entirely on its own, without the need of a "sentient hand", so to speak.

        Energy, borrowed from a source and not returned resulted in our universe. smile

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Not an answer to the question, but hey; thanks for playing.smile

          1. Beelzedad profile image62
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, I understand that reading comprehension and critical thinking are weak while religious indoctrination is strong, hence you are unable to see an answer. smile

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Obviously you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I went back and read your post again, in case I missed something. I didn't. You didn't read the question. Too bad. I was honestly interested in your opinion on it.

              1. Beelzedad profile image62
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You didn't comprehend the answer. smile

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                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh. I see. You've probably got the same theory as Mark. Ok. Keep your magic. I'll stick with reality, thanks.

                  1. hanging out profile image61
                    hanging outposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Deleted

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                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You should follow Eaglekiwi's idea. She's collecting a dollar for donation every time Mark says Christians cause conflict. lol

        2. hanging out profile image61
          hanging outposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Who borrowed the energy that wasn't returned lol

          sound of the buzzer again
          if you had a nickle for every buzzer sound you'd be rich lol

          1. Beelzedad profile image62
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No one. But, I do understand your penchant for invoking magical beings where none are required. smile

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              well come on now. if something isn't returned it must be for a reason? Where did it go. doesn't physics say that the laws that govern this sort of stuff never vary from their intended trajectory? I am certain that if jupiter were to vanish one day there would have to be reason for it? or would "it just wasn't returned suffice... "

              finger on the buzzer......  smile

              1. Beelzedad profile image62
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, there must have been a reason for the energy to not return to it's source, however we can find many examples of this phenomenon in nature and many reasons for there occurrence.



                It was the energy that became the 'building blocks' of our universe.



                Nope. I never heard of such a thing.



                Strawman fallacy, and a very silly one at that. smile

                1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Buzzzzzzerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

                  lol
                  which part was the strawman?

                  1. Beelzedad profile image62
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The part where you introduced a childish comment about Jupiter disappearing.

                    I see your buzzer obsession is firmly taking hold. smile

      4. DoubleScorpion profile image87
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Very thoughtful OP. If we look at how things operate in the universe today. Haley's Comet, for example, comes around every 75 years or so. I am sure there are other Objects in space that have orbits that might only bring them through this area every few million years. With the planets of our system, why is it only one of them sustains life? Look at flower bulbs, once it becomes to cold they go dormant. When the weather warms, they produce flowers. There are many factors that allow life to exist on this planet and I don't want to bore you with a science lesson... Thinking logically, I can only determine that what we currently see, had to have been developed from material that has already existed. Once certian conditions were met, the sun and then the planets started forming. And of course the same goes for life on earth. Now man of course, being the inquisitive type has to know where things came from. And since they are somethings that just can't be explained, something was thought up to that would allow for those things to be explained. Of course we will never fully understand anything about our universe, how it came about or where it is going for a few different reasons. One is we just don't live long enough, Two only a few people are actually attempting to learn his information, three we don't not possess the technology to explore the whole universe in a timely effiecient manner as well as aot of other reasons. The only thing we can do at this point in time is to apply an openminded logic to what we actually think we know, continue to determine if what we know remains contant. Having faith is good for the "soul" but in the end god is what we make of him. Humans tend to be dependant on others...and being dependant on an all powerful god helps us to maintain the strength to handle certian situations in our lives. Does god actually help you? Who knows? But that faith (confidence in something) does allow for the person to be able to overcome the situation. Just the same as when you have someone cheering you on, you tend to give it that extra boost and push even harder to win that race. So I guess you can say that "god" has always been there for humans...

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So, let me see if I got your point. You think, the belief of god is fuzzy and warm enough to prohibit questioning the concept? I know that sounds a little confrontational, but that's what I get from your post. I agree. Some people have no problem with that. I do. I never thought about this and there's no logical out, that I can find: save one.

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            By no means...I say question away... But the reason most people don't question is because of the warm and fuzzy. Logical thinking says that god can't exist...at least not as claimed...the only way god can exist is through the thoughts/feelings of humans...or we are gods ourselves. And since man created the being known as god. then, that god has been around as long as we have.

            Edit: Seems like your thoughts have changed since I first seen you on HP.
            Let me re-phrase. Seems like your thoughts have cleared since I first seen you on HP.

            Questions lead to answers and Answers lead to personal truths.

      5. dingdondingdon profile image60
        dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago

        This is also a major problem I have with theism. A common argument put forth against the Big Bang is that it could not have just started up out of nothing, yet I have the same problem with God: if the Big Bang cannot start out of nothing, then surely God cannot either? If we use that argument to accept that God exists, then we have to say that something must have created God and something must have created the something that created God and it starts to get ridiculous.

        I tend to believe that the universe works on almost a sort of timer. Currently it is expanding. At some point it will cease to expand and blink out of existence (this is generally referred to as the Big Crunch). Then another Big Bang will appear, and the process shall begin again. Almost like the way a rubber band stretches out until it can stretch no more, then pings back to its original shape. It's the explanation that makes the most sense to me personally.

        1. superwags profile image81
          superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think the most recent arguments would say that the big crunch wont happen and that the universe will continue to expand despite gravity. This what supernovae observations and CMB tend to tell us.

          That said, because we don't have an observation of what dark energy is, we can't say that with any confidence either. And franky, who the hell cares because we'll have died out several hundred billion years before anyway!

          We can do the maths for either, but it doesn't really make it workable as we don't have the observations to back it up.

          God I love cosmology!

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          All well and good. But that doesn't explain the origin. Not that we could, but that's the crux of the argument between the camps. The how, or why.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There is a far simpler alternative.

            Lets see if you can work it out for yourself. wink

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I believe I have. I'm looking for rebuttal. Not condescension at this point. Thanks. smile

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I was not being condescending. I genuinely thought you might be ready to step out of the little box your mind is in and was encouraging you. Oh well. sad

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                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Please do not push me to make statements I'm not ready to make. Just because this seems logical doesn't mean I haven't finished exploring the angles. If the answer were simply black and white, we'd all be on the same page. I don't see the problem with reserving final judgement. Either way, it isn't as if I believe my soul hangs in the balance. It is simply yes or no to the question at hand.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No - it is not. There is a third alternative you do not seem to have considered. wink

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                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Enlighten me as to what you consider that to be. smile

                      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                        Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        No - you will resist anything I suggest as a matter of principal. What is the most simple answer you can come up with? Dropping all your assumptions.

          2. dingdondingdon profile image60
            dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So far as the "why" goes, I don't believe there is one, nor do I think there needs to be. Lots of things happen without any particular reason.

            And the "how"? I'm not scientific enough to explain it well, but men and women much smarter than me have explained how the Big Bang happened and worked in great detail.

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I would have to disagree on the statement that the big bang has been explained satisfactorily. It's the best answer we have with the evidence at hand. Maybe. And I do agree with those that say it sounds suspiciously like the hand of god.  it has always seemed a rather pat explanation to me.

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                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                maybe there was no big bang.  Maybe matter was always in existence.  Billions of years is far more than we can possibly comprehend anyway

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                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  As I told Mark and Beelzedad I'd prefer not invoke magic to explain life. It's a cop out answer. What you're saying, in essence, is we don't know and never can. We can't figure this out; so why try. Not my style. There are no limits to the knowledge we can attain if we simply keep knocking at it. Science isn't done explaining the mysteries  of the universe yet.

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                    Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm not suggesting magic, I'm saying this mystery hasn't been figured out yet, and does it really matter?  Scientists have already figured out how life came about, which contradicts the bible.

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                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Does it really matter? Are you serious? Why would it not matter? Are we cavemen? Oh my gosh. Never mind. Knowledge appears to mean little to you, as long as the Bible has been refuted. Ok. Gotcha.

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                        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        not at all.  Knowledge means a lot to me.  I studied for a science degree

            2. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Lawrence Krauss comes to mind. He has won awards for his lectures explaining what is known about this universe.

      6. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago

        Sipping my first cut of coffee ... still half asleep
        So here is a sleepy half thought.

           Has anyone seen a fire cracker go off and the sound go only in one direction?

           I think (Halfway) that when the big band went off, time was then creted. As does the sound of the fircracker travel in EVERY direction time also does.

          Quantum physics will never find all the answers cause new questions continue to be creted in an ever changing universe.
        IS is always standing between was and will be, but our vantage point will never be exactly the same again.

           Yep I need more coffee, or something that I haven't been getting enough of.   ha

            Gotta go out in the world and do an impression of Manuel Labor

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hey jerami. Yeh, I think it's the general consensus that time, as we know it, began at that point. I've never had amy problem accepting that God could have been the catalyst. I'm just wondering about well before that point..I just can't wrap my head around God, always perfect, except within our understanding of time. Nothing appears from nowhere. The thought that perfection just'was' is more than I can process. If there is a God, what was God at his inception? It only seems logical to think he would have had to evolve to perfection. He could not have magically appeared. If he wasn't always perfect, he can't be classified fully as God. That I can figure out.

          1. Beelzedad profile image62
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Perhaps, you may not want to use the word 'logical' when referring to your religious beliefs, 'magical' would be more appropriate. Notice how that well that fits, now? smile

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You're actually making me fretted here. That's exactly what I'm saying. It's illogical. But hey, keep hating everyone enough not to be helpful. You're good at it.

            2. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry, but I also disagree with this statement.
              God's existence may be considered illogical by the rationalist, because such a one is limited to that which can be seen, felt, heard etc.
              But any (non)genius can also deduce, by LOGIC, that IF there were a God, and is defined as all powerful, wise knowing etc. He COULD indeed create anything He wanted to, any way He chose to.
              It would not be "magic".
              That is just a derogatory term to ilicit emotional responses, nothing more.

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                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Dj, I'm not arguing that such a being with the knowledge to create a universe could exist. I have no knowledge that it couldn't. I simply wonder about the fact of what might have been the beginning of such a being. It would have to have evolved to a state we reference as perfection. I know it sounds crazy  but that, in itself, has me stumped.

                1. hanging out profile image61
                  hanging outposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  as created beings we can think of nothing else. In this plane of physical reality we cannot think otherwise.
                  Ours is not the only existence and neither does it rule. Our plane of existence is not supreme, it may well be at the bottom.
                  We might even fit into an aquarium
                  or be on some tabletop

                  If we are created beings then obviously some other form of life exists in a plane of existence that is probably completely different. It is natural for us to ask where did god come from? and yet we suppose that our earth and all of space came from a big bang or as atheists think, nothingness.

                  What we consider holy, as being the state of entity that created us, is merely a bunch of correctness: morally and ethically; strung along in a row. Since the universe is created and wonderfully so, we have to assume that this holiness is a way to make our lives successful and our societies function properly, with minimal mess and fuss and for the benefit of all. Whats the point of making a world with people on it if you don't have a plan for its success? Whats the point of my having 10 turtles in a terrarium if i cannot guarantee their livelihood? If i want them to like me there has to be some relationship unless i just let them go and do their own thing, then i have merely given away part of my tabletop or aquarium as a useless space that i have no use for and i can work around it for all the years that it exists.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image62
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    When will you be drowning them in a flood or sending plagues to kill them? Will you smite them and roast them if they don't love and worship you? lol

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      What do you think God should do with you? for all your time here on hubpages.

                      have a good sleep

                      1. Beelzedad profile image62
                        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        Which god? Zeus or Thor? lol

                2. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Why are you stumped? Clearly such a being - if it existed - would be the product of evolution. Therefore it would not be a god. Therefore a god cannot logically exist. Nothing crazy about it. It is very simple actually.

                  Unless you invoke "majik" which is what the theists do.

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                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I know this. I'm looking for anyone that can refute it. I can't imagine finding a different conclusion, but who knows ? Maybe there's an angle you and I aren't aware of.

                    Just kidding Mark. But there are obviously aspects about your philosophy that make some people extremely unhappy. I can't imagine why something considered a truth would be so unpleasant.

                    Do  a high percentage of atheists feel so horribly persecuted because others believe?

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                      Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Aww - back to condescending? I don't know how you feel - as you are now a self professed atheist who is scared of telling their husband you no longer believe - you tell me. Will you be scared to admit you are an atheist when you apply for a job? Does it bother you that you are now barred from holding public office in your country? Will it bother you when you have to say -"No thanks" when some one asks you to bow your head in prayer to the Invisible Super Being at table? Will it bother you that the money in your pocket tells that you trust in the Invisible Super Being? Will it upset you when other peopel want the law changed to match what the Super Being wants? Will you consider this to be persecution? Pretty sure this fits the bill - but as you are simply reverting to trolling - I leave you to work it out.

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                        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        I don't understand why it has to be so confrontational Mark. That's all. Why would I come to care what is printed on money? Why would the subject of religion come up in a job interview? I don't plan on running for office but wouldn't see an atheist as unqualified simply for lack of belief. No one is barred from office by law. I can sit quietly while others pray. Who cares? I'd probably clear my throat of they rambled on, but why in the world is this a bone of contention? We have so many beliefs in this country that I bend over every day to appease someone. How is atheism different?

                        I can honestly say (and I might be surprised) that no one in my family is going to give a hoot. With the exception of my father's wife, who's a backwards holier than thou mentality to start with. I'm a heathen already, so this is nothing new. I don't care what my husband's family thinks. They are like my father's wife, so I already blow them off too.

                        The only way this will affect my peace is if I go out of my way to let it. Right now, I am trying to figure out what it is about the philosophy that tends to make people do this.

                        I don't think you understand. I think I am little different than many people here. Religion is more a heritage than a way of life. It's like your queen. You don't need one. You don't listen to anything she says. The office is part of your history so you let her play with the corgis in Buckingham Palace and forget about her. That was religion to me. It's over. Who cares? It wasn't part of my life to begin with.

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                        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        And so you know Mark, I already fight the fools that want religion to rule our law. I argue that point quite vehemently at every opportunity, as I have done all of my life.

          2. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I think you have it all figured pretty well!
            God IS too big for our finite minds and knowledge to comprehend.
            I don't see what His Eternal existence has to do with His beginning. This is a contradiction of terms.
            We may not understand the dynamics of eternity, but the concept we (should) have is that it is without beginning, and end.
            Anything referred to as being time related must have a beginning, and an ultimate end. You can't somehow blend the two.

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              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              it's not that god is big.  It's that humans have explained away things they didn't understand as 'goddunit'

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                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                As opposed to the much more thoughtful response of, oh gollyy gee, the universe just is. Why would we think on that anymore? I'm just amazed that no one sees the hilarious foolishness of this belief.

                1. Beelzedad profile image62
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yet, invoking invisible super beings that wave their magic hands is not "hilarious foolishness"?

                  Indoctrination is strong in this one. lol

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                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I have never invoked magic. I don't believe that the universe could have started in any way other than a way we will be able to determine. In time.

                    Bailey bear has explained the reasoning behind your belief that the universe has always been. What a cheesy way to look at things. It isn't magical, but it sure is lame. Just give up? That's your answer? lol

                    1. Beelzedad profile image62
                      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes, you always invoke magic and are not interested in any other explanations.



                      There is that reading comprehension issue coming to light again. That is not my "belief" - with science, we don't deal in terms of beliefs, but instead understanding. Huge difference. smile

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                        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        I read write well. As do you. The difference between you and me is that I don't search for ways to ridicule. You do. Big difference in philosophy.

                        And I know why you want to shove this ridiculous theory around.  I get it. Stop being so scared. smile

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                        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        Bailey bear said, (and I quote) 'does it really matter'

                        For the love of knowledge Beelzedad, of course it does. What's the point of existence if we can't learn? Should we sit on our thumbs and question nothing?

                        You can't believe that.

      7. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

        1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep...etc

        Formless and void,which I guess equates to nothing to man.

        To God it was formless and void wink

        Bit of a difference ,albeit a small one on the surface.

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hey Eaglekiwi. That's not my problem though. What's your take on the 'what' question. Not what he might have been at the beginning of our universe. What might god have been at the beginning of his existence? Not to sound like Mark, but he couldn't have just magically appeared. I never thought about it before. The answer isn't sounding good for belief.

      8. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

        For God to exist would mean self isnt god anymore-awww

        1. superwags profile image81
          superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But for god to exist requires self to invoke it.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No self doesnt invoke it.

            But is up to self to accept it smile

            1. superwags profile image81
              superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Haha! Ok Eagle, I'll revise;

              "If self finds themselves at a loss to explain something, invoke Him. If self can't be bothered to look at the fundamental reasons as to the cause of something in a measured and empirical way"

              better?

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                We just believe in differant books smile

                1. Beelzedad profile image62
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Believing in books and understanding books are two different things of which the latter I'm quite sure escapes you. smile

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    We shall see.

                    1. Beelzedad profile image62
                      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      We already can see. smile

                      1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                        No 'we' dont. wink

        2. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This is why your religion causes so many wars. If you don't have anything to say - why bother with this drivel?

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            This is why your unreligion causes so many wars. If don't have anything to say -why bother with this drivel?

            If we are bothering you why don't you go watch some tv.
            oh the logic and reason of it all.
            neener neener neener
            lol

      9. Daniel Carter profile image90
        Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago

        If there ever was a god, is now a god, it makes sense to me that god and the universe are one and the same. We have just miscategorized what god is, turned god into something we can understand--akin to a voodoo doll--so that we could wrap our wee brains around the concept. And in this scenario, which I freely admit could be fatally flawed, everything that is the universe, every particle in it, is god. Therefore, we are god and god is us. And so is everything around us.

        It's a concept I've been thinking about, based on teachings from mystics, a little science, and a few of my own experiences.

        It reduces god to everything the universe is. Not bigger than the universe, but actually THE universe. And since we are a part of the universe, we are included in that scenario.

        Feel free to deconstruct, critique, point out flaws. I'm as curious as anyone about the subject. It's a speculation that's in progress with me. I don't think we have a lot of definitive answers, but there are those among us that seem pretty bright about the mechanics of the universe and associated theories.

        1. dingdondingdon profile image60
          dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It's a fair enough theory, but it seems a little... reductive. What I mean to say is, though it could certainly be true that the universe and god are one and the same, it doesn't answer many or perhaps even any of the questions ("Why are we here? Is there life after death? Is there some code by which we should live our lives?") religion sets out to answer.

          1. Daniel Carter profile image90
            Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hence, the need to fabricate a religion to give us that information. If we are god and god is us, then the only reason behind why we are here is because we are. I AM. The only reason for life is whatever we make of it, not what someone else makes of it for us. If we are god and god is us, then we define those things for ourselves. No one else. And from my experience, the closer death comes, the more this reasoning stands. People, in many cases, decide for themselves who they are and what their life is. Fear is questioning the belief systems we were given and actually considering that they may not have been true at any time. Overcoming fear is accepting it, and finding one's own reasons.

            But this is my experience, not necessarily everyone's.

          2. pisean282311 profile image57
            pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            @dingdondingdon  quite right and that is why religion works ...it adds meaning to live of species called homo sapiens...it is this quest of living forever , quest of eternal life which makes human get inclined towards religion...never the less , religion does give answer but it doesnot  necessarily mean that it gives right answers...

      10. pisean282311 profile image57
        pisean282311posted 5 years ago

        @just_curious from where did it all begin?...well this question has no answer...it becomes endless cycle ...religion tries to answer this by floating a concept called 'god' ...god which was always there , which is above time and nature , which is above entire system which operates universe ,created everything...it is logically flawed answer but since science has still not figured out many things about creation of universe , the answer works...

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I know this. What struck me as odd though is the god thing. It couldn't have appeared from nothing. I had no problem with the concept until I got to thinking about that, past the point of our origin. It had never occurred to me. What of god's origin? Nothing appears, perfectly formed, out of no where. It can't be a God, as I define the term. If an intelligence exists, it had to have evolved from something, or been created by something. I'm stumped.

      11. Merlin Fraser profile image78
        Merlin Fraserposted 5 years ago

        Instead of calling this Hub “Roadblock to Theism” why not call it Roadblock to Logic ?

        Whenever subjects like this arise or such questions are asked there is an immediate division of assumptions. Mainly the two main groups are;
        Those Hell bent on arguing the point that only God could have done it.  Therefore to argue or debate with this group is a total waste of time and brainpower since nothing short of the second coming complete with an announcement that it wasn’t his old man what ‘dun it’ will ever get through to them.  As a HubPage group they made my head hurt so badly I gave up on trying to convince them of anything, including which direction Up was, or the merest possibility that someone might just have been telling them Porkies for umpteen thousand years.     

        The second group is almost as hard to debate with they’re convinced it wasn’t a God what did it, (Maybe).   But there again nothing comes from nothing and therefore they look at God and the Universe with the same logic.  Again, there is really no point debating with this group since their logic circuits are frozen in a loop which returns them to  ‘Nothing comes from nothing.’ 

        I once tried very hard to submit the argument that what we are trying to debate and understand is so way beyond our comprehension even if there was a single person actually capable of explaining it to us. 

        Those smart enough to think they have a plausible answer usually start explaining and lose the vast majority of us about 30 seconds after they say “Good Evening... I have a theory...”  While other experts attempt to dumb it down to a level where even the average moron might understand... assuming they were listening in the first place that is.

        These are the major points that most everybody around here miss or misunderstand they are  simple explanations for highly complex issues broken down into layman terms.  Therefore if you are smarter than the average, more logical analytical or sceptical than most, chances are the explanation on offer will not satisfy you or appear over simplistic and leave a lot of questions.   
        We could start with the Bible theory of Creation, most reasonably sane people have already dismissed this as a myth, or as I explained above it is a simple explanation for a highly complex question.  So allowing for the fact that both the questioner and the person who cobbled the answer together were wandering the Earth better than 4,000 years ago they arrived at the fact that it probably needed some sort of super being who just to prove he was super knocked the whole thing up in six days.     

        I know ...I know... There are still a few out there who cling to this version of creation as if their life depended upon it, don’t worry about it, other than been marginally delusional I have it on good authority that they are more or less considered harmless.  I also happen to think the main reason they cling to this notion is that if they once accept our version of reality who knows what other parts of their belief will also fall apart.  I know that scares them, so it is best for them not to question their faith too closely.

        Move on, how about the Big Bang theory, accepted by most as a reasonable conclusion that the Universe, or as much of it as we can see at the moment, is hurtling away in all directions seemingly from a central point.   Given that this is how a bomb burst fire work behaves moments after it explodes in the air this seem as reasonable explanation.

        So, looking at the size of the universe, mind blowingly big, may up of all sorts of stellar bits and bobs where did all that stuff come from..... We have no idea !

        Suffice to say the universe didn’t explode into reality in the shape it is... that took time.... a lot of time... Billions of years of time...and that is another mind blowingly big number.

        Let’s pause for a moment and consider Black Holes for a while.... Yeah I know we can’t see them so how do we know they’re there ?   We know they are there because we can see the effect they have on what we can see revolving around them.

        Something else the universe has that we can’t see but we know it’s there is Gravity, and gravity is the power source of the entire universe.    Once you can grasp and accept that simple fact most everything else shuffles into place.

        OK... Back to the Big  Bang... What went BANG ?   Could it possibly have been the Mother of all Black Holes ? 
        We know that when some stars reach the end of their life they implode and become black holes, miniscule in terms of their origin size but with a gravitational pull so great that it pulls everything in...including light itself... nothing escapes ! 

        Gravity keeps us anchored to the ground, rotates our planet and orbits us and the other planets of our solar system around our sun.   Our piddling little solar system is in the far reaches of one arm of a vast spiral galaxy.  How Vast....Let’s just say it’s another one of those mind blowingly big numbers and leave it at that.   Just grasp that the Galaxy itself is also being rotated by gravity, possibly by an enormous black hole at its centre.   Think of it as water going down a plug hole and you’ll get the gist of it.

        Now imagine what will happen when Galaxy meets Galaxy and Black Hole meets Black Hole surely one can imagine that like having a Pike in a lake, sooner or later you will have no fish and just one big fat Pike.

        How big is that one Singularity ?  Who knows....  When compared to the current mass of the universe it will be as close to nothing as it is possible for a universe to be.... Then one day BANG !!!!  And the whole thing starts again....

        Who knows such an event may have happened time and time again and will in all mathematical probability happen many more times into a future without end.

        Does this explain everything.... No !   Does it leave any questions unanswered... You Bet ?

        But if we had all the answers to all the questions what would we worry about or talk about tomorrow ?

        1. Daniel Carter profile image90
          Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          In answering just_curious' question, your point is....

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. I was scratching my head on that too.

            1. Merlin Fraser profile image78
              Merlin Fraserposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I would have thought the point was obvious, by simply asking the questions you ask you are just going around in an endless loop.

              By attempting to explain the cration of the Universe to you I thought you might have been able to reach a conclusion of your own....

              No it wasn't God !  Just a whole bunch of mind bogglingly large satistics, an enormous explosion, gravity and time...

              Trying to understand it or explain it will drive most of us mad...

              That's why they invented God... Let him worry about it so you  don't have to !!!  Simple really.

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                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The question posed has nothing to do with the creation of the universe. Everyone went off on a tangent. A person or two actually read the question.

      12. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

        There will be a $1 fine everytime this quote appears and all proceeds to be sent to charity forthwith.


        This is why your religion causes so many wars

      13. Cristen Rodgers profile image82
        Cristen Rodgersposted 5 years ago

        I think that there may yet be a rational explanation, but only when the term 'god' is understood differently.  People like myself use the word god with a very differnt meaning than fundamentals do.  To me, god is the energy behind everything and within everything, not some man in the clouds that sends everyone he's mad at to hell.  Under this definition, (energy) god didn't really begin at all because it exists beyond the restraints of time and space...at least as far as I currently believe smile This god didn't really 'make' the universe at all so much as it expresses itself through the universe and so there isn't really a beginning or an end but rather a continuous evolution of creativity. Does that make sense to anyone else?

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It's a cool answer.

      14. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago

        JC your still here? I work online, that's my excuse, what's yours? smile smile smile

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The small bladder of my puppy. And once he's up the coffee's on.

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Poor little puppy! Is he empty now? I could use a coffee myself! smile Been a long day! smile

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              One never knows with a puppy, apparently. I'd offer you a cup, but I fear it would be cold by the time you got here to drink it. smile

              1. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                As you can see, I took a minute and belted out a mock cappuccino using the microwave. smile

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                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That sounds good. Actually, too good. Now I'm thinking about going out to buy a cappuccino. Thanks a lot ernest. It's way too early to be contemplating that much activity. smile

       
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