Is anybody else,besides me,beliefs that people who intimidate non believers with hell, are actually evil people?
I believe in God,but God of love and good will to all.
Any type of intimidation is just wrong.
It serves to obtain certain result,or impede somebody.
Do you agree?
I am not sure intimidation is involved here. The believers (not all of them) just spread the facts that they are convinced of. I personally am one with you.
There is no hell
well it is their conviction and are not aware that they are intimidating non believers...hell is mere concept and no non believer takes its seriously...infact instead of making person believer , it even scares them away....
Not evil, but their ignorant beliefs cause them to do evil things.
I don't think they are evil, but don't have a firm grip on reality. Many simply enjoy the conflict it brings. Is enjoying conflict a sign of being evil? Last time I checked, conflict is the opposite of peace. So, I guess they are not at peace within themselves, therefore, don't want others to be at peace. Hence, conflict.
Would you die for a stranger? If not, so much for following in your god's footsteps.
It would be wrong, but people don't see it as wrong in their actions, because they are spreading a supposed truth. They are doing a god's will, by informing others of the consequences of non-belief. They are righteously justified.
It's unfortunate, they fail to see the results from their own actions, for what it truly is- conflict.
It serves a specific result, yes indeed, divide and conquer.
I wouldn't say they are necessarily evil; just misguided & acting out of fear & indoctrination
My mother was violently Catholic in the way only converts seem to be. I eventually had to tell her straight that it was not for me in any way and that the whole hierarchical mess with its thought police and threats was not anything I would ever discuss with her. This arose because of my choice of non-catholic scool for my kids. She refused to let my wife into her house - telling her that as my kids were not catholic, or even christian, they would be going to hell and so they may as well not exist.
I did not cry at her funeral. Did not even feel particulary sad.
Just because you're intimidated by something someone says doesn't mean they're intending to intimidate you. They can't help how you respond to what they say. Perhaps, you're intimidated because you feel there may possibly be truth in what they're saying to you. If a person is talking to you about hell, they're just trying to help you avoid it. The same as a caring person would do if they see you about to take a fall that could possibly harm you or cost you your life.
People who talk to others about hell are insane. There is no hell for those who don't believe this rot.
You're talking to me about hell, does that make you insane?
And just because a person/people does not believe in hell does not mean it doesn't exist for them. Disbelief does not negate reality. I may go my whole life believing the sky is actually green, but that, of course, would not negate the FACT that the sky is blue.
So you believe in hell? I don't threaten people with hell. Your comment is nonsensical. Hell is a religious concept designed to scare the incredibly gullible.
I'm going by what you said. "People who talk to others about hell are insane." You didn't say 'people who threaten others with hell are insane.'
And yes I believe in hell.
No, you are nit picking and you know it. As for hell, as I said a concept to frighten the gullible.
I'm not nit-picking. I'm simply responding to your comment.
And as for hell, is it a 'concept to frigthen the gullible' because you say so.
Hell is symbolic. It is archetypal. Hell is when you are suffering and can find no peace. I find it equally ridiculous to say hell is nutin'. Like all things in literature, these things have meaning. It must be taken for what it stands for.
The Minotaur is real. It is the wild son of the Queen with the Tavros, the bullworshippers. This boy is a historical figure, he was incredibly stubborn earning him the nickname The Minotaur, the Minos Tavros boy. the bullheaded boy. not the boy with head of a bull.
But meanings get lost in the uneducated.
It has come to that yes, but what it really means is--You will suffer. you know this.
Sometimes, it is difficult to teach complex concepts of the psyche to young people. So you use stories. But then when they grow up, they should be taught what those stories mean. But no one is teaching properly in most parts of the world. No one is decoding.
How come when a Christian mentions Hell its called Intimidation or In docrination etc ,but when an Athiest mentions it its called something else.
Double standards ,oh dear,make up your minds.
If you dont believe in something,why would it bother you??
Example: Athiests beleive in no after life. I have never gone on an on about that, nor do I feel intimated by that expressed fact.
Dont believe it, you do, case closed.
Oh Hell..... I believe Grumpy Pills Exist!
- And they have an after life.. you know.. like bad flatulence
Left a cute pic for ya over on other thread,gave her ya number too
What are you trying to do... Intimidate with that picture of my mother? I never believed her either
s'ok we shared some scones,topped with fluffy fresh cream and delicious raspberry jam and exchanged fine stories about men down under
Whaa.. You HAD MEN DOWN UNDER???
OMG.. Too much information EK! Too Muckn Fuch Info!
Aww yer so cute when yer tryin to be bashful bro
I have to admit that I felt Completely Intimidated (and my senses seriously assaulted) at that thought EK
What with those Tuatapere bikini lines, size 16 gummies, those dancing snorkels, etc. I'm afraid I could never look a prune again the same way!
Hi yolanda, I can relate to your first reply. I have shared scriptures about hell with the love of God in my heart. Some in the forums stated that christians is not showing love when they do this. It's not sharing the full gospel if we leave that part out.
There should be a category called Whiners, or antiChristians, to put this thread in.
I think it's evil, but I'm kind of selfish. I'm glad they did it, because it started a chain reaction that pushed me to reevaluate the whole religion argument. It's actually caused me to become a nonbeliever, so yeh they need to stop now. Or not. Maybe their craziness will do some good for others too.
you'll get hassled by a few - I see one called you beelzebub on another thread. I got called that too
I saw something about beelzebub, but I thought he was referencing beelzedad..calling him boy or something in satan speak. Was he talking about me? That's too funny.
think is was by victor - can't remember which thread - maybe the one on christian love. When I got called beelzebub, I though they meant beelzedad too at first.....so ridiculous...just have to laugh at how childish they are
So how does this side of the fence feel? Feel different now that you are completely "free"? (not sure what else to call it)
I don't guess I'm completely free. Someone, who will remain unnamed, has the poor taste to keep calling me indoctrinated. Who knows? He might be right. I won't know until I can figure out what he's talking about. But I'm actually enjoying it so far.
Remnant beliefs. It affects your entire world view, moreso than you realize when you're in it.
Keep thinking and you'll shake them all loose with time.
Congratulations, truth will set you free and give you wings.
Give me an example of one. This indoctrination argument irritates me. The only thing I could find on it was a disgusting website talking about inbreds. I have no idea how it could apply to me.
I was indoctrinated into religion. Growing up in a religious environment will do it if that is considered the norm in a society.
when you have grown up and followed religious beliefs your whole life...it is hard not to revert back to some of the thought processes when attempting to explain your point of view. Some of the people who have this opinion of you...are pure logical thinkers with little to no emotional thinking involved. They are concerned with facts not opinions or feelings on a matter...(for the most part). if a subject is approached from logic only, it leaves no room for personal opinion. there is either an answer or there isn't.
Well, after listing four things based on the christian love thread, I decided it wasn't right for me to assume what you may believe based on just the observations of one thread.
You'll see. They just kind of pop up out of the blue every once in awhile to remind you how foolish you once were. Of course, it all depends on how deeply you were immersed.
It probably doesn't apply to you in the least, that's not the point of the argument.
We only need look at the very simple definition of indoctrination: "Teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically"
Breaking it down we see the very first word to be teaching, which is quite true. Indoctrination involves the process of teaching just like any other process of teaching, whether it be practical, theory or anything in between. Kids get taught by their parents, schools, peers, idols, you name it, they are taught by whatever input is available.
The next is the acceptance of doctrine. In other words, whatever is taught is accepted as true and therefore when is conjured in the mind as thoughts or repeated later have no implication of deceit or prejudice contained within and can be freely shared as if it were reality.
But, the last and one of the most important aspects of the definition is the word "uncritically" which is the conditions on which one thoroughly accepts the doctrine. What it means is that no matter what is taught, there is no need to apply any critical or evaluative cognizance of reason or rationale to the stated doctrine. No need to question or raise concern to the teachings presented when faced against other ideas or concepts.
I can break it down even more simply.
If you say its all doctrine,then you choose which doctrine you accept/reject.
If you say one is fact ,one is not,once again you choose..
Now its all doctrine right?
So, what is "Mans Word" exactly? Please define your labeling of that which you call doctrine because I have no idea what you're referring?
It would have shown an instinctive development of the concept of compassion to have posted that explanation, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago?
I've been thinking about this post, and the more I do the more it bothers me. Explain to me, by your definition, how you aren't (as you have claimed on many occassions) indoctrinated.
I would need to see evidence of the vacuum you were put in as an infant, if I am to believe you were not indoctrinated.
Does this mean, since you aren't indoctrinated in any way; that you concede that you do not know the truth? Or, are you indoctrinated and therefor have accepted certain things as truth?
Since I questioned and reflected on debates we had, and you dogmatically stood your ground, who fits indoctrinated by this one?
you won't feel free overnight - it's a process
I agree, it takes a while to get past it, but boy! what a wonderful feeling it is to know you are responsible for your own life, well being and happiness.
As a famous American president once said (Abe as I recall)
"People are as happy as they make up their minds to be"
I'm more content than ever these days. I spent years feeling miserable - partly from health issues and partly because I had never resolved how I felt about christianity (because it was too exhausting for me to deal with when I was really sick).
Well, since I've always felt responsible for my life I won't have that to worry about. I never actually believed anyone was moving mountains for me. We weren't raised that way. I agree with Abe though.
these forums made me certain I never wanted to be a christian (or any other religious belief)
yes, I am a former christian (was in pentecostal denomination). Don't ever want to go back to become christian.
A christian on my facebook has been sending me messages about how she thinks modern christians have it all wrong and the messiaic (sp?jews are right. Not sure why she's telling me all this (she told me I had listened to the lies of the devil when she read my hubs on how I no longer believe). Sounds like she's trying to convince herself that it's all real
Well, christians stayed away from me already, so I doubt I'll have that problem. I do have the inlaws though. This philosophy is not something that will be shared with them. They'd probably picket in the front yard until my husband divorced me.
I 'came out' to my parents via my hubs. I linked them to my facebook & the christians on there very quickly told my mother - she was rather upset for a bit and after writing a few ugly emails to me, she didn't speak to me for weeks. I was a bit apprehensive when we went to visit, but they did not make us have to endure grace at meals, nor did they bombard us with christian music. She had finally got the message that I don't believe what she does, but that doesn't make me a rotten person & I did not want to broach the subject unless she could dialogue without getting all emotional about it (impossible for her).
Your mother sounds like a very good woman. Few serious bible thumpers I know would take your stand as anything but a challenge. I fear if my husband's parents found out I'd have them over every other day, shoving literature at me. You should be thankful your mother is so understanding.
Sad to know your in-laws are so rigid JC. That could make life difficult for some. My inlaws were bone ignorant-by choice. They are both gone now, but they sure made things hard for my wife and me when we were young.
In my early twenties I went in to business and immediately made heaps of money. They hated my guts for it.
Well, at least my in laws admit I've been a good influence on my husband. He used to be the type I always say lets their testosterone get in the way of their thought processes. He's a pussy cat, compared to the stories they all tell about him. So, they give me quarter for that. But that's about it. I just don't want to reach the point where this causes conflict. They'll never change. The horrible thing is I've always thought everyone has a right to an opinion on this, and I've already moved past that point. I honestly wish everyone could step away. Very odd for me. It borders on intolerant.
Your right, they will not change, the best you can do is keep the peace. I think you will be OK with the tolerance thing too.
Someone who can untangle themselves from dogma openly has got a heap of guts.
Well, let's be honest. Four cats in a window have stepped up to the plate and spoken up. I'm pretty sure I'll stand up for myself and my convictions in real life, but I don't know. I work for an openly christian company. Great pay. Great benefits. Not a boat I'm going to rock. Can't tell the in laws. The only people in my life who won't care are my family, but we've always been cool about alternative ideas, I think. This may not fit the bill, but I'm sure I'll find out.
well, I had over a decade of getting preached at and emotional emails saying 'come back to the lord before it's too late'. Since, I've made my views clear & final, she had a big reaction & then seems to have accepted it (even though she doesn't like it). She probably knows that I won't tolerate that kind of rubbish anymore and she wants to see her grandchild
A decade? That is a hell of a long time to listen to religious babble. I think that is a good definition of hell!
You are the second person to read their way through religion and emerge in the daylight on these threads. We had another christian decide to join the unbelievers a few months ago.
Welcome back from the myth.
Well, I have traveled all over America, know heaps of smart Americans as friends and still believe America is one of the most religious countries in the world today.
Glenn Beck is considered a comedy in my part of the world, and ridiculous shock jocks are mostly religious fanatics in the states.
I wish you well with staying out of the constant indoctrination that forms a large part of the American Psyche.
Well, there's a lot of those here in the states..I guess since we're in a religious forum he's a televangelist or something. I've honestly never watched any of those shows. They're too bizarre.
GB is a very contraversial Fox TV Presenter.
I think he mainly attacks Political figures ,but yep hes aggressive over almost anyone.
Hes been heavily critised and I think he was almost fired with offending the sponsors. Maybe he has toned down now-dont know.
I havent seen him for a long time ,but hes still on Fox.
Check him on YouTube,there be alot of videos Im sure.
Oh. He's a political commentator. Arghh. Our branch manager is way right. Our hold isn't music, it's right wing crap. He's probably on there. I called in one day and got put on hold. I was so offended by the program I complained. He laughed. It's who we are. We take our politics seriously. They're still bent out of shape over Obama.
Great! you obviously managed to miss him. Well done!
It isn't that hard. You've got a choice of two hundred channels and three of them are christian. I just don't punch those numbers.
He is on Fox JC, he comes on after the news here in Australia on cable.
Yeh..I saw that from above on eaglekiwi's post..I don't listen to that either. Too emotionally charged for me. I listen to Npr and read news on the internet. Or read the paper.
I have trouble watching the TV as well. So much hype! The BBC can be a good source of info, as it has people on the ground worldwide and actually originates some of it instead of taking the standard footage put out there by others and repeated ad nauseam by all of the major stations.
Fox belongs to Rupert Murdoch who Australia was glad to get rid of.
I listen to NPR as well, it is a much more down to earth format generally I reckon.
Yeh. People tell me it's liberal, which is odd. I always thought I was conservative, but I love it. And I seem to have turned liberal anyway after the Bush got elected. The republicans got over run with the religious right and there's no sanity there anymore. I keep screaming for a third party, but no one listens to me.
We have a two party system here as well, in as much as the greens and other smaller parties never win an election and at best hope to find a way to wedge into one of the major parties. (Liberal) and Labor) The liberals are anything but liberal, and labor is being run by a fool currently who would not support Assange as she is supposed to support any Australian citizen.
I would like to see a decent political party here too.
We in Australia were thrilled when Obama got in, but with the tea party and the religious nutters he is not able to do what he said he would within the time frame he was allotted.Then he is accused of not getting the job done.
Makes no sense to me that he is the anti christ or some sort of monster, I read his background thoroughly. He is very bright.
The lies about his birth certificate. (which anyone can find on the net in a minute) is particularly annoying.
Yes. I think people have been unfair to Obama. I actually cried for joy when he was elected. It was a milestone. I thought it was grand, but I honestly think a large percentage of the hatred comes from people that look at his color. Obama has been a disappointment to me, but that's government. I don't begrudge them my tax dollars, I just hate the way they spend it. We need to be more compassionate to those in need and cut back on the bureaucracy. We are bloated with too much waste. And, unfortunately, he hasn't done anything to change that. I thought he was going to, but they've made it worse.
My sister is tea party and I get nervous talking to her. I can't imagine a revolution, but they talk pretty cryptically about change is coming in a big way. I certainly hope it's talk.
I don't think Obama will be as easy to unseat as the fundies think. I have faith in the American people. I agree, the world needs to learn compassion. America is 40 years behind the rest of the developed world with health care, and the selfish right are still trying to stop the current health care bill, even though it was at one time their idea!
We have free health care and have had it for a very long time. It is cheaper, because when someone gets even slightly ill they go to the doctor. I reckon a system like ours would cut America's health bill in half.
America is a great country and the proof of that is in the current work it is doing to get rid of Qaddafi and his crooked sons.
I am in raging agreement with your whole comment.
We have to do something. I have a friend without insurance. She went to the doctor for the same thing my husband did once. We paid $20 copay and her bill was $600. It isn't fair. They're gouging the poor and getting away with it. I believe in capitalism, but we've run amock with our greed.
Outside the middle east, africa and certain south american countries, yes. We are the most religious of 'advanced' nations, and far more religious than most of europe.
Also of interest is that the places most religious are the most war-torn and poor, and it looks like we may be headed that way as well. The poorest and worst-off states as rated by such things as education, economy and social equality, are also the most religious. Incidentally, these states are also republican run.
So it would seem that religious belief makes for a stupid populace, easily manipulated and easily taken advantage of.
That reads like truth to me. I know that Mexico has a squillion catholics. It is hard not to notice all the countries with a lousy education system which are mostly poor and manipulated.
America is looking very shaky in that aspect as well.
was the other person me, or is there another? I found the tired old cliches from the believers to be very off-putting. And I used to regurgitate those cliches myself
I think the best way to explain it is like, well first you might start thinking they're wrong about this or that. Then you find a sect which kinda agrees with your new beliefs, but then you find that doesn't quite make sense either, so you keep hopping around looking for what does. Soon you're like christian lite, like our OP up there. You hold to parts, but let go of everything you don't like, and you don't even try to make sense of it anymore. Then you get realer, and move to generic universalism. Then you're checking out Buddhism and the Tao and Confucius. Wicca, paganism.
Eventually you just admit you haven't a clue, and it's really possible that there's no god at all. So you're agnostic.
Let that sink in while you read some more, keep thinking, and it all falls into place, you suddenly realize what a huge pile of doggy doodoo it all is, before you know it you're an atheist hiding semi-uncomfortably behind the agnostic label.
Give that some time to simmer, and then you're really free. Because then you know that they're aren't any rules, everyone else is at least as messed up in the head as you are anyway, so you may as well start thinking for yourself and making your life the way you want it to be.
At least, that's how it was for me. Your experience will almost definitely vary.
I don't know that labeling them as evil is any better than them labeling 'sin'. I think that it is just a matter of ego control...they believe something firmly and are afraid to second guess it. Then, when someone else comes along to challenge their ego's hold on things, they need to be right. Being right of course means changing the other person's mind. This isn't an original concept though, it just changes shape depending on who uses it and for what justification. All we can do is show them that we are just as connected to our own 'god' (whatever that may be to each of us) as they are theirs and rise above the temptation to argue thus showing them that the ego doesn't always have to win.
Yes I would dive for you all
Had to pop in and spread the love ,lol.
Hey we might not agree and I can give as well as take a challenge.
But I genuinely wish you all a great week-end
Paddy was on his way home from the pub a little worse for wear. He came across the Vicar who was pushing his motorcycle. "Why are you pushing your bike Vicar?" says Paddy.
"piston broke" said the Vicar.
"No worries" says Paddy "I'm like that every Saturday night!"
From gummies to glam Size 16 ya nut.
I promise I will not reveal who the 'Grim Reaper
' is in the background neither
Some intimidation is acceptable I spose,least thats what the small print said
Hey- 6 hrs in waders and fishy rubber pants,with a hint of Old Spice mingling with Speights is making me break out in a---- a---rash.
And another thing.....shit I forgot
So, um I have a question, if God created all of us and lord's it over us all the time, who lords it over him? (read this to say who created him nothing more nothing less)
col. 1:16-17 says, 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: All things were created by him: and he is BEFORE all things, and by him all things consist.'
If it were possible for God to have been created, or have a lord over him, who is the creator that created God and what's his name? And where is he at now? God is in heaven and everywhere all at one time (he's omnipresent), therefore where is the creator that created God?
Haha and really something written in a book is supposed to make me believe he was the first and only one. Sorry, try again.
Edit: And this is exactly what the thread is talking about IMO. Got to throw bible verse at me to get me to see it your way. Because any other concept is just not acceptable.
Great questions! I couldn't have stated that any better. Do you have any answers?
Maybe, in the same way that god is invisible to us, his god is invisible to him and he must have faith to believe in Him.
Intimidation of non believers
Non-believers should not be intimidated; they should be convinced with reasonble and rational arguments.
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