jump to last post 1-19 of 19 discussions (306 posts)

Is Christianity really a moral religion?

  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago

    Is it moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man? If you accept that the person is murdered to give you everlasting life aren’t you just as guilty of the crime?
    If a man said to his son, let them murder you and I forgive all of them their debts to me. What would you think of that man? That he is crazy? An egomaniac? Yet when it suits you, you celebrate the murder of an innocent man just you can be forgiven by what you know rationally as being an egomaniac.
    What does a god need a blood sacrifice for, just so he can do what you and I can do without one, forgive?
    If you accept everlasting life under those conditions can you call yourself a moral being? Doesn’t it seem like Christianity is one of the most selfish religions in the world?

    1. 70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with you.

      Really it would be a very immoral act by any standards; but this Jesus never believed in; this philosophy is wrongly invented by Paul and cruelly continued by the Church; in this sense Paul and the Church are both anti-Christ. They have nothing to do with Jesus or Mary; they were peaceful and loving persons; couldn't think of this immoral philosophy or act.

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Who can know the mind of God?

      We look at things,everything from our perspective, but whose to say that is the only perspective ,insight ,intelligence out there?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Do you allow others to take your punishment for you? Do you think it is moral?

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God set the standard. Not me. You would need to take that up with the Judge of all Judges smile

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No. It is your choice. You have free will. Do you accept that someone has died so you do not have to pay the price for sin?

            You celebrate it, don't you?

            I want your opinion. Is it moral to accept someone else paying for your sin? Seriously. And tell me why you  think it is.

    3. Woman Of Courage profile image59
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Slarty, Do you feel good picking on christians?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Am I picking on you by telling the truth? I never considered that picking on people. When did you start considering telling the truth picking on people? When you discovered you don't like the truth?

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          "telling the truth?" I kindly choose not play in your games.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You choose not to listen to the truth. That's fine. Do you always deny the obvious?

    4. frogtalk profile image79
      frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Are you a moral person? I doubt it, I bet you have lied and cheated and done other sorts of sins in your life.
      Jesus was moral-he never sinned, he is God.
      It is not for us to decide what will save us. Our minds have been polluted with sin, we cannot come to the saving knowledge of God's grace without him. And he says that the only way we can be saved is if we believe in him.

      1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
        Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        How do you know his morals are not different from yours? Some people think that abortion is moral others think that it is not.

        Jesus never sinned?

        Deuteronomy 13:9 states that you must kill anyone who tries to lead you away from god.

        Jesus didnt kill anyone therefore he is a sinner.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You display a complete lack of understanding of the purpose of the Deuteronic law and the culture for which it was written, and the complete change in culture that had occured by the time Jesus walked about.

          1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
            Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Oh really? So you think that just because it was 2000 years ago and civilisation was different to what it is now that it was morally acceptable to KILL anyone who challenges your belief?

            How far will you go to defend this nonsense?

            1. Disappearinghead profile image90
              Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ????

              4000odd years ago when Israel was coming out of Egypt, they were a slave people with no idea of how to be a nation, no idea of governance, and surrounded by pagan nations. God gave them a harsh set of laws to try to knock them into shape, to bring a coherence to them, and to stop them going astray after foreign gods which otherwise would have brought division and ultimate disintegration of the fledgling nation. 2000 years later they were established as a people and moved on culturally. No need to kill anybody as you say.

              Initially blind faith in the law was needed, but later an understanding of the law and what it was aiming to achieve as the people had developed was much more relevant. Picture post-exilic Israel as like children, and in Jesus time as adults.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Oh right. So if you have 100 children, and half of them dont believe what you want them to believe, it is perfectly acceptable for half to kill the other half that dont believe in order for your preferred belief to be dominant.

                So you think it was a good thing that christians went round the world killing millions of people just because they didnt believe the bible.

                You're sick.

        2. frogtalk profile image79
          frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think first of all, you need to understand that you are a human being, and all human beings are sinners (except one--Jesus).
          God. Is the ruler of the universe, he decides what is moral and what is not. It is not moral to blaspheme against the one almighty God. In fact, it is not even moral to say you do not believe in him.
          You ask how far I will go to defend this truth...I will die for it if necessary

          1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
            Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Not moral to say I dont believe in him? Thats not even my fault. I cant force myself to believe in things. Can you force yourself to believe in santa? Then why on earth would an ALL LOVING god punish you for not believing something?

            Thats not moral. Morals are subjective. WE decide what is moral.

            It was moral 2000 years ago to kill people but not now? Is'nt god never changing? It sounds to me like the book was made up and written by men from a changing society.

            It was moral to them to kill others but now WE think it is not moral to kill others, WE say "the old testament doesnt count anymore".

            YOU decide what is moral and what isnt. The bible tells you to do good AND bad but YOU decide what to take note of and what to ignore.

            You agree with thou shallt not kill but you dont agree with killing others. How did you decide? The bible doesnt say the OT is not relevant anymore, in fact mark 5 states that Jesus did NOT come to change the law "not a jot nor a title".

            1. frogtalk profile image79
              frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              sorry, man... God decides the rules. If you created a world you would have the right to decide the rules...thankfully you can't create an earth and God did, and God is holy.
              Are you mad at God for something? because he loves you wants to give you a chance.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Im not mad at god because I dont believe he exists. Getting mad at something I dont believe to exist would be silly wouldnt it?

                What bothers me, is that you WORSHIP such a being AND claim that he is all loving, all powerful, and just.

                1. frogtalk profile image79
                  frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I WORSHIP him AND claim that he is all loving, all powerful, and just, because I know in my heart (and in my head) that it is true.
                  It changed my life, if you had the same experience, it would change yours too...I'll post a hub about sometime.

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So you think the action of drowning an entire planet including babies and children is loving and just.

                    That makes you sick by societies standards.

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                If I create a world in a test tube I have the right to do with it what I like?

                If these beings I create are sentient; if they feel emotion and pain and love etc. Do I really have the moral right to do what I want with them? Can I find a way to keep torturing the ones I think are doing wrong for eternity? For things like not believing I exist?

                If a scientist was ever found to be actually doing that, don't you think you would be one of the first to say what a sadistic pig he is?

                No, my friend. A god has no more moral right to do just anything at all to his creation than you have to do just anything at all to your kids.

                If you think so than I question whether you know what morality is.

                1. frogtalk profile image79
                  frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  God is just in what he does. He is a perfect just God and he will not punish people without good reason. At the same time though he will do what glorifies him the most. So we have a God who is holy, loving, just, and he glorifies himself through his actions.
                  I don't think it would be moral to let people go without punishment. God provides a way out though. If someone is suffering in hell it is because they have rejected the salvation God is offering to them.
                  God does not take delight in the punishment of the wicked. He wants all men to be saved.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You find someone who glorifies himself above all a virtuous person?

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    If god did not delight in torturing people he wouldn't have made hell, and he wouldn't make stupid petty rules that show how egotistical he is, and call them sins.

                    Do you really think it is such a great sin not to believe he exists that it warrants eternal torture?

                    What you see as just punishment is cruelty beyond belief. Christianity has a really  warped sense of right and wrong.

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And so another terrorist is born to defend his god that doesn't seem to be able to defend itself. How pathetic.

            1. frogtalk profile image79
              frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              lol...don't you worry, my God can defend himself. One day your knees will bow and your tongue will confess that he is God.

              1. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Frogdroppings! lol

                1. frogtalk profile image79
                  frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  hmmm...maybe I should change my name to frogdroppings...lol...good one

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Can he? So why would you feel the need to kill for him? Can't he do his own dirty work? Or is he like a mob boss?

                Perhaps a god exists, but more likely  he is just your fantasy.  I won't need to confess that he is god, I"ll just state it as fact. And why would I be on my knees? According to you he's going to torture me anyway. You want me to just accept that?

                Now, if he is a just and kind god he'll smile and say he's happy to see me, and he's glad he could finally prove to me he exists. We will have a laugh and go to the bar for a smoke and a drink and catch up.

                If he is like you say he is, I'll spit in his face and he'll dump me in hell for eternity. I can't believe for a second that even were there a god, it would be anything like what you claim it to be. Your idea of satan is better than that.

                1. frogtalk profile image79
                  frogtalkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't feel any need to kill for him.
                  It is not dirty work, would you call what Jesus did dirty work? He loved people! He healed them, he saved them from their sins, he brought people back to life. If you ask me that does not sound like dirty work! It sounds like love! And this same loving God wishes that no one will perish. He doesn't wish for you to perish. His desire is that you will repent of your sins and come to him, he offers salvation.
                  God is not a fantasy. I'm not going to prove it to you because I know he will. You will be on your knees because you will acknowledge him as God. I hope though that you will turn to God before it comes to that. It's your choice man, you can accept God's salvation for your sins or you can reject it. The latter results in torture.
                  The reason you exist is because he exists. God hates arrogance.
                  Why would you spit him in the face? I know for a fact that you won't though, Jesus has already taken spits in the face, when he's coming back he's coming back strong and mighty like a king!

                  1. Beelzedad profile image61
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It would be the height of arrogance for those who believe in their gods to threaten others with torture if they choose not to share your beliefs. smile

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    "I don't feel any need to kill for him. " Glad to hear it. So your admission that you would gladly die for him was meant in the sense of old style martyrdom? The kind where if you are persecuted you will die rather than recant your beliefs?

                    Current martyrs in the Middle East strap bombs to themselves. So I take it you don't mean that kind of martyrdom.

                  3. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                    Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    frogtalk, Amen. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. smile

                  4. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The problem is it would easy for me to go to him if I knew he existed and was really a good guy. The fact hat I do not makes it impossible for me to accept or reject him. I would reject him only on the basis that he is an egomaniac and not a good guy. If if I found out he was a nice god, I'd accept him. Either way I would accept that he exists.

                    But there is no proof. Telling me or others to go to him when there is no evidence that there is someone to go to is meaningless. Expecting that we choose him or reject him without proof that he exists is meaningless.
                    On can not make an informed choice nor any choice unless one actually knows what the choices are.

                    So if he wants me to accept him on the word of a book and it's believers, he'll have a long wait. At least till I"m dead and wake up.. lol... But I don't expect to wake up from death.

                    Now if he said that we should choose after we die, then he'd be being fair and just. Now it all sounds like a fantasy since he's a no show.

      2. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Funny actually, to claim what happened in the lives of two people you have never met or have any idea of what they did during their childhood, where the predictions are at opposite ends of a moral spectrum.

      3. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Do you bet me that? Sure. I've don't things I regret and some I have made up for some  haven't. Is this an AA meeting? lol... But if you are a Christian you choose to accept the murder of an innocent instead of paying for your own sin. I wouldn't. Not even if I believed. It's immoral.

        Can you explain why it is not immoral?

    5. chasemillis profile image86
      chasemillisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The thing is that when you think of morality, you think of it with respect to today's society. As for the murder of an innocent (Jesus), death is the way that you were forgiven from sins back in the ancient times. The reason people sacrificed animals because it was supposed to represent what YOU should be doing. Everyone should be killed because of their sinful lifestyles, they just killed animals instead. The reason that Jesus was sacrificed and the reason that He covered the sins of the world was because He was perfect. He was the perfect sacrifice. He did not need to sacrifice Himself because He was never born with sins (sin is passed down through the father - as was believed back then), and He never sinned throughout His life. But the reason that His death was so influential and powerful was because He rose from the grave 3 days later (therefore defeating death).
      As to your question about morality, it was not only morally acceptable but morally necessary for Christ to have been sacrificed to cover the sins of the world. Because of that, anyone who calls Him by name and believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

      Another thought - God created the world and everything in it (including you (if you take this viewpoint)), why would He expect anything less than dedication to Him in our lives. Who gave you all your skills and abilities? Did you choose where you were born? Did you choose what family you were put in? Did you choose what language your were going to be born into? And if you think about it, where do you think our morals even came from? I put my money on God. Just a thought

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So you don't think morality is absolute then? Most Christians do.  wink No. Morality is forced by cause and effect. No god required. wink

    6. yolanda yvette profile image60
      yolanda yvetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Are you putting yourself as judge over God and the way He decides to run His business.  Afterall, this world is His right?  Shouldn't He have the right to set things up as He pleases.  If you or I were God, we could do as we please...but since we are not, we have no right to judge His ways.

      Furthermore, Christians are seen as troublemakers in these forums.  But, I beg to differ.  The troublemaker is not the Christian (for the most part).  The troublemaker is man's own mind, trying to conceive the mind of God and His ways with their natural minds.  The things of God are spiritually disscerned, therefore as long as you're looking at them from your natural state they will appear to you as they do.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I take it you don't like people asking questions? Yes I think we can judge god. The Jews did it and rightly so.

        1. yolanda yvette profile image60
          yolanda yvetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Is your judgement of God true or is it false?  And where did you get this truth by which you judge God?  And no, I do not oppose you asking questions.  There's nothing wrong with that.

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Because "he" is a myth, just like the 3 headed dog, tolerant religion and goblins. smile

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I can only judge by what someone does. Can you not judge the characters in a book of fiction or non-fiction to be of sound moral fiber or not? wink

            The bible is a book of mostly fiction. But be that as it may it portrays your god in a certain light. I can only judge by what it says about him since he never shows his face to the world

            Do you jealousy is a good trait in a character? Ordering murders, is that a good trait? What if a character wanted to be worshiped, and demanded it on penalty of torture? Sound like a nice guy to you? Oh yes, the character in the story has his son murdered so he could forgive those indebted to him. Sounds like the guy is a bit nuts if you ask me. He puts snakes and poison trees in the kids playpen and then expects they will listen when he tells them not to play with them. Then curses the kids and throws them out of the house when they do. That's just for starters.

            Read this bible just as a story it is easy to judge your god to be an egomaniac, a tyrant, a nut ball, pathetically immoral, and a host of other descriptive words you likely don't want to hear. 

            If you read such a story about a man you would say the same thing. But because it is supposedly about a god that can save you from itself, you will argue with me.

      2. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wrong, it is our world, it belongs to all mankind.



        Okay, we don't judge his ways, but at the very least, we can have coffee and donuts and discuss the ethical and moral implications of "his ways". Nothing wrong with that, is there?

    7. CaravanHolidays profile image60
      CaravanHolidaysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is actually maybe more a question of what a religion is in itself.  For example - despite what anyone says, the bible was written by humans, and if for arguments sake you believe in Christ, I'm sure he'd have more than a bit to say about a) the bible, and b) some of the assertions made in 'His name'

      1. 70
        paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Clever Paul and sinful scribes did say many misleading things in"His name" or in the name of Jesus. The Church followed them also.

  2. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Don't worry about the spammer Slarty, already flagged the profile of this genius. smile

    The morality is the same throughout the OT, a megalomanic ranting full of threats. Psychologically unsound to say the least. smile

  3. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago

    Let's start from this premise.  IF you believe in a God (who may not be the only God, but is the God over all gods) who has let it be known that eternal paradise exists for you if you obey His commands (which are not random and arbitrary, but rather laid out for the good of all), and that God has made it known as well that disobeying those commands will result in you being shut out of that paradise eternally - then I suppose it is completely selfish, and this God is a megalomaniac.

    If you understand that God to be who He says He is, however, a completely just AND a completely merciful God, you have yet another premise to work from. This God understands that you will fail in carrying out every one of his commands.  There will be some you are able to keep and others that you will not due to temptation, weakness, simple ignorance, etc...Now, in His mercy, he can simply forgive and be done with it.  But, in that case, His justice is not satisfied.

    An example:  You steal a $2500 ring from the jewelry store.  You tell the judge you're sorry.  He says, "Okay, then I will not sentence you to jail time, but you must make restitution to the jewelry store.  Otherwise, you will be convicted and sent to jail."

    Now, knowing that you cannot, in this case, make restitution for breaking His commands, and wanting to be merciful, this God above all gods, sends His Son to earth to make the only restitution that can be made - death.  In accepting this mission, the Son agrees to take on every sin of every person who chooses to believe in Him as God's son, and die for those people.  He CHOOSES to do this, mind you.  It is not forced upon Him.  This act of death on the part of the Son is accepted by God as restitution for the sins of all.  Now that the justice of God has been satisfied, He is going to offer only mercy.  To show evidence of this mercy, He is going to raise His Son from the dead to show that the gates of paradise are once again open to all, no matter what failures they have committed.  All they need to do is believe.

    What is so often missed in observing Christianity from the outside (or from the once inside, but now outside) is that it is not the murder of Christ that is celebrated.  It is remembered, yes, and memorialized.  BUT, it is His resurrection that is celebrated.  The act of his death was selfless.  It resulted in His resurrection, which is what allows the believer in Christ to be forgiven, without having to make restitution - not without being truly sorry, which the believer is perfectly capable of, but without having to die and live apart from God forever.

    Now, the final premise is that you accept that gift from God and use it only as an eternal "Get Out of Jail Free" card and as license to do whatever you want regardless of the temporal consequences.  THAT is where the mistaken belief comes in on the part of believers in Christ and non-believers alike.  What should happen is that you use the freedom that you have in Christ to become as like Him as possible...as giving, as sacrificing, as loving, as kind, as compassionate, and as forgiving.  There is not only no need to judge (because God's justice has been satisfied), but there is also no RIGHT to judge.  Judgment is reserved for God alone, and as stated already, His justice has been satisfied.

    1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree that this is the mostly accepted version of Christian Doctrine.

      I am curious of something...Why, if I am the Just Judge, Jury and Executioner, would I pay a price for a crime (sin) that someone else committed, based off of freewill (choice)given them and who knew the punishment of those actions? And why do I issue the same punishment for all crimes (sin)?

      Example: Gods Punishments
      Crime(sin)- Premarital sex/adultery between consenting adults.
      Punishment- Burn in Hell forever.

      Crime(sin)- Rape of underage girl.
      Punishment- Burn in Hell forever.

      In the USA, we have a judicial system in place that awards punishments based on the severity of the crime and on the multiple offender or habitual criminal types.

      I, understand the thought behind your post to mean:
      God put the laws is place. Man broke laws. God gave man a method to atone for breaking the law (Animal Sacrifice). Man continued to break laws. God sent his only son to atone for man's unwilliness to abide by the law. Man does not feel attached to atonement, because it didn't come out of his pocket, still breaks laws. Man is unable to stop breaking laws, so must continuely ask for atonement (through forgiveness/dipping into the "pot" of the Sacrifice of Jesus).

      So if the criminal, is unable to stop being a criminal, why is an atonement continually made available for them? What happens with your children, if you tell them what not to do, but allow them to continue to do it? They say, "I am sorry and I will try not to do it again", when they know full well that they will commit the same offence again, and Mom and Dad is going to let them get away with it.

      If god is only showing mercy now, because of the sacrifice made by Jesus, then what is the purpose of asking forgiveness? The sacrifice has been made and all sins are covered. There is no need to ask forgiveness for something you have already been forgiven for. 

      Just my thoughts.

      And one point, that I disagree with that you made, I think that the Death of Jesus has to be celebrated as well, for without the death, there can be no atonement or resurrection. If no death of Jesus, there is no forgiveness by grace, without the death, there is no resurrection or victory over death, which means no everlasting life.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        My personal take (unpopular among most fundamentalists and scoffed at by the average unbeliever) is that A)there are degrees of sin that are worse than others and a just and merciful God accounts for this at His final judgment and B)along with God's forgiveness comes His grace and His spirit, allowing someone who turns to Him regularly to become more and more of a habitual NON-offender.  Each confession of sin and opportunity for forgiveness brings the gift of strength to resist temptation.  The sacrifice is good once for all, but yes, I am one of those heretic folk who believe that you can, in fact, lose your salvation if you only gave it lip service to begin with.

        And, in retrospect, I suppose you're right about the fact that Christ's death is celebrated.  A matter of semantics ultimately, though.  Easter is the highest holy day for Christians, after all, not Good Friday.

        Just my take on it.

        Thanks for being so respectful in your response, btw.

        smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But this is not what the bible says. So - basically you made up your own version to suit yourself. Which is what everyone does. Every one wants to say they know what god wants.

          Hence the fighting (and the scoffing). sad

          Just as a matter of interest - is homosexual sex better or worse than killing someone on your list? Can you give us a "top twenty sins" that are worse than taking the Lord's name in vain? lol On a sliding scale maybe?

        2. DoubleScorpion profile image87
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          From what I've seen, you seem very nice.
          I do not ever mean to be rude in any response that I give (unless someone is directly "attacking my person"). And while we might not agree on one point or another, we are both entitled to our opinions and questionings of theologies or philosophies. And, that debate is something that, if so inclined, can be done with a mutual respect between those in the discussion. Enjoy your day:)

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "If god is only showing mercy now, because of the sacrifice made by Jesus, then what is the purpose of asking forgiveness? The sacrifice has been made and all sins are covered. There is no need to ask forgiveness for something you have already been forgiven for.  "

        Ok. Someday I need to do a hub on this. Christians seem to be confused as to what this sacrifice was for and atheist often are too. It wasn't to give a blank slate for all sin. It was for one sin only which none of us can pay for, which is original sin.

        So we are all supposedly forgiven for original sin due to Jesus taking that on for us since his father would accept nothing less. No Christian sect should be preaching that we are still soiled with original sin.

        When he dies for original sin it opens the door for god to forgive ongoing personal sins so wez all can get ta heaven! Before that we had original sin hanging over us and there was no way out for anyone.

        Just clarifying the myth for everyone. lol....  Carry on. wink

        1. 70
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There is no original sin; every human is born innocent; sin is not heriditary.

          The concept of "original sin" was invented by Paul and continued by the Church for their on vested interests; they both are therefore Anti-Christ in this sense. It has got nothing to do with Jesus or Mary.

          1. Beelzedad profile image61
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And, you continue to defame other religions when your very own religion was invented by Muhammad for his on vested interests. smile

          2. DoubleScorpion profile image87
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That is what he was saying, Paar.

            1. 70
              paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              OK thanks

        2. DoubleScorpion profile image87
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this



          I have tried to explain this one before...They just don't get it. So I normally ask questions similar to the one above.

          It is still believed all men are born in sin (original sin).
          It Jesus only died for removal of the original sin...well then I would say that some folks are -waaaayyyy- behind on the sacrifices required for the forgiveness of the other sins.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            But Jesus is the new deal. Accept the fact that he was murdered on your behalf, become a willing accessory to that murder,  and you no long have to make animal sacrifices to have your sins forgiven. Lent perhaps, but that's about it. All you have to do is confess your sins to god and you are forgiven. But only if you are really sorry and promise not to do it again.

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              smile) I never understood the confessing the sin part...Isn't it christian doctrine that god already knows what is in your heart? He should already know that you sinned and if you are truly sorry or not.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I think it is supposed to be enough that you confess them to yourself and want to be forgiven. Not much different from the real world, since that is the process any person has to undergo to make changes within themselves.
                The other part of it is trying to make things right. But if you have put in the effort to do that, the last phase is forgiving yourself. It's easier to do if you think a god already has..

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You know...it seems, some folks just want to make it hard to actually live life as a good decent person. If I screw up...I say OOPS and correct it and move on. It doesn't take a belief in anything to do that. Why would someone make being a good person hard work? I really don't understand some people sometimes.

                  It is my opinion, people use god and satan as a crutch for why they can't act like a decent human being. "I am a sinner, satan made me do it, god has to help me overcome my temptations and evil ways"
                  I say, quit acting like boob and get over yourself. Grow a pair and admit your mistakes and then fix them. Stop blaming others for your imperfections. Blaming your faults on satan or anyone else is straight up lying. Claiming god helped you do something, is nothing more than bragging on yourself, while pretending you aren't.

            2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              There is much you dont understand it seems.

              Gods thoughts are not your thoughts,
              and Gods ways are not your ways.

              1. dingdondingdon profile image62
                dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Then there's a whole bunch of us who don't understand, because Slarty's analysis of the events in the Bible seems accurate to me.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Id agree with that statement. I used to be one of those people.

                  We are all free to choose ,isnt that a good thing smile

                  1. dingdondingdon profile image62
                    dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It is indeed!

                    Would you like to explain the Crucifixion the way you see it?

        3. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know that I made myself clear, but that is actually what I was trying to say.  The judgment was ultimately due for original sin - which is why we continue to approach God and ask for forgiveness, which He offers and then gives grace to grow out of our sinful natures.  That's what I was trying to say when I made the comment about it being possible to lose salvation if all you do is pay it lip service but don't approach God continuously to allow Him to effect the change in us.  Make more sense?

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yup. WWTM, you have it right.

    2. Beelzedad profile image61
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So, is that a premise for Muslims and Jews or just a premise for Christians? Depending on your answer, you may be starting from a false premise.



      Unfortunately, the flaw in that logic is that this god already understands we will fail in carrying out his commands, hence he cannot mete out justice of any kind knowing we will fail.



      Restitution or not, you will be sent to jail for robbing a jewelry store. Sorry doesn't cut it in front of a judge. You broke the law, but the big difference here relates to your flaw above in that the law understands that you will not fail in abiding by the law.



      Only a psychotic megalomaniac would do such a thing.

       

      Nonsense, nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus accepted such a mission from god. And, it was not a choice he made to die, it was a choice made for him by the Romans when he was arrested and crucified. He did nothing to make that happen, literally and figuratively.

       

      Had your god thought of mercy in the first place, he would have instead saved Jesus from crucifixion in front of everyone there, thus showing his mercy, meting out proper justice and making everyone believe in him.



      You should try reading that over a few times to see how utterly ridiculous that sounds. smile

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then let's simply start from this premise, Beelzedad.  You do not believe in a God at all.  Therefore, anything following is utterly ridiculous.  I accept that as your right.

        Thank you for pointing out how utterly ridiculous everything I said actually was.  I'd never have recognized it otherwise.

        You are to be commended for your superior knowledge.

        As for Jesus' choice in the matter:
        Matthew 26:39
        Mark 14:36
        Luke 22:42

        And this is a starting premise, by the way for Christians.  And before you get all high and mighty about the whole one God thing  - why would the first commandment be to "have no other gods before me," if there was only one God.  Not all believers in Christ are of the opinion that only one God exists - only that there is one Supreme above all and being the One who created everything else.

        1. Beelzedad profile image61
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No, whether I believe in a god or not does not preclude the fact you present contradictions in your thinking process.



          Superior knowledge has nothing to do with pointing out the absurd and irrational.



          You probably haven't noticed because you know little if nothing at all about other religions, that they too will boast a similar statement in that their god is the one and only god.



          Yes, I know, it's really quite amazing the nonsense people accept when they become indoctrinated into a religion, and not just Christianity. smile

    3. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "Now, knowing that you cannot, in this case, make restitution for breaking His commands, and wanting to be merciful, this God above all gods, sends His Son to earth to make the only restitution that can be made - death."

      See. I'm with you on most of your post. But this is the kicker. When I have done wrong, I am punished. A judge does not allow another to take my punishment. Is it moral for me to accept that someone else take my punishment for me? I don't think it is. I wouldn't allow it. I would refuse it.

      I can even see being sentenced to die and having your soul rubbed out to be a fitting punishment for some crimes like willful murder, child rape and murder, etc. But even for those crimes eternal torture seems utterly excessive.

      Then there are the sins like not believing he exists, which carries that same sentence. That seems absolutely over the top. It's like a judge sentencing you to be beaten every day for the rest of your life for spiting on the sidewalk.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Slarty, I personally feel that the punishment for unbelief is only for those who have intentionally rejected the message, not those who've never heard of Him. 

        And, of course, I'm among those strange ones who happens to believe that only God knows the heart of man at every moment, and that there may be options after death that fundamentals do not acknowledge or believe in.  Again, what makes me unpopular with fundamentalist and gets scoffs from unbelievers.  Oddly enough, I never mentioned that I "fight" with fundies, just that I'm unpopular among them (in response to Mark's post).

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          See. The problem is that wording. The Church teaches that those who have never heard the word will only be punished for their deeds. But as soon as you have heard the word, you have no excuse.

          The message of Jesus is sound in some respects like love your neighbor etc. So most moral people would not  reject that idea. But they might reject that it comes from a god. Yet that alone is said to bring eternal hell.

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I can certainly understand the struggle with that.  I happen to think that just because you don't boycott the funerals of Marines or burn Qurans or stand in front of Planned Parenthood clinics and hand out religious tracts or sail overseas to "witness" to heathens rather than feeding the hungry at your own back door, doesn't mean you don't "serve" God, or believe in Him, or strive to be a better person because of Him.  But, you know, I'm weird like that. And, I'm one of those heretics who believes that both faith and works are necessary.  UGH.

            wink

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You aren't the one who is the heretic. But we won't tell anyone. wink

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Shhhh....you're not supposed to tell anyone that, Slarty.  That's just between us!

                wink lol

    4. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Woah woah woah. You think that someones death is an acceptable restitution for another mans wrong doing?

      Wow

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think that any man has a right to lay down his life for whomever he chooses.  That is what Jesus did.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No no no no no thats not what I have a problem with. You think that a man dying for another mans wrong doing is acceptable to your god as restitution.

          What type of country would we live in if a high court judge would accept the death of another man as payment for a murderers actions?

          Im really glad you are not in politics or in a position of power.

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well, I didn't write the book, I was explaining the belief.  So, since I'm not God, what difference does it make what I think about how He chooses to make restitution for mankind?

            And, I'm glad I'm not in politics or in a position of power either, so that makes two of us.

            Thanks for the respectful tone you took there.  It was much appreciated.

        2. Beelzedad profile image61
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But, he didn't do that, he was arrested and crucified and had no choice in the matter of laying down his life.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, Jesus laid down his life, via his actions, which he knew what the consequences were of doing to begin with.

            He was executed, not for the sins of humankind, but to keep religion from being destroyed, because Jesus' teachings were not religious and nothing to do with religion.

            He wasn't preaching religion, he was teaching his understanding of life and living in the world in which we(humankind) does. wink

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
              Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              If he deliberatley laid down his life then why did he ask his friends for help (and they said they didnt know him) and also he called to his father (himself) "why hast thou forsaken me".

              That doesnt sound like the actions of a man laying down his life. It sounds like a man being killed against his will.

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Like my statement said- Jesus knew what the laws were in play, when he made his blasphemy call- claiming to be god. That is the ultimate action Jesus understood would end his life.

                As for what was claimed for him saying on the cross? Is hearsay at best. It's most likely, because of the puncture of the spear, he was dead in minutes and not saying anything.

                As for his "friends", they barely knew who they themselves were, much less, understand who Jesus was to begin with.

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Dude, the entire book from start to finish is hearsay. It was written at least 100 years after he died.

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Some gospels were written decades after Jesus' execution, yes, that's not disputed. But, are a part of the collective knowledge available to humankind.

                    The fact is that the gospels have been written and accounted for. However, those gospels themselves can only be viewed in their original document form, in one place.

                    The original documents exist as written works, which are to be learned from. Not the learning, you are thinking along, which is to be taken literally as a religion. No, anything derived from the bible, is for the benefit of humankind.

                    There is an overall message. Actually, there are plenty of messages within the scripture, but specific knowledge is required, to put them into proper context, so to convey the knowledge necessary for the advancement of humankind.

                    Jesus' teachings about Life and his bottom-line message matters.

                    It has nothing to do with a god. Anyone who says it does, fails in understanding his message or lack knowledge of his time.

                    I can tell you now, when I researched religion, I found that a couple of the gospels were copied from one other. Hand writing analysis confirms(it's not the only thing it confirmed) that three gospels were written by the same person. So, the validity of those are completely out the window. The corrupt teachings of Paul, made the "church" what it is today. A joke.

        3. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes. The idea that a soldier has given his life for the people he loves, to keep them safe, is a valid concept and your benefiting from that is not immoral. You are innocent and a potential victim of war.

          But that is not the same as allowing some one to die in your place, to take your "rightful"  punishment for a crime you have committed.  A person hight do it for you because they love you, so they are doing something heroic. But are you a moral person if you accept it?

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I can see the import of that question...If it was done without my knowledge and then offered to me as a gift of mercy, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with accepting the offer...which is the case here.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              God required the sacrifice to be without blemish and since no man was without blemish.. the only
              one who could make the ultimate sacrifice was Jesus Christ!

              So it probably doesnt matter whether we would or wouldnt...allow it.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                But it does matter whether or not you accept it.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Gods sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice.

                  Gods wisdom is greater than mans.

                  Therefore I accept His Lordship and I am not ashamed to say so.

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image87
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I am not picking, I just want to know your take on something.

                    Did God made the sacrifice? (to himself)
                    Or did Jesus offer to be the sacrifice?

                    I ask because in Luke 22:42 is says: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

                    This implies that Jesus ask to not be the sacrifice, but would do as he was instructed (told/forced) to do.

                    If God offered the sacrifice ( as implied by Lk 22:42), Why would he offer a sacrifice to himself? God is considered to be all powerful, instead of a sacrifice, why didn't he just remove all sin.

                    Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ah. Willing to follow what if it were anyone else you would consider a tyrant, just so you can live forever. Are you not even a little ashamed?

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. It was done without your foreknowledge or consent. But then, for the final phase, your entrance to heaven, you have to consent. You have to thank god for doing it for you. For murdering his son on your behalf.

              If you reject the sacrifice you go to hell. 

              To me this is a very symbolic moral issue that few if any Christians think about, ever.

              It is moral blackmail.

              Gospel of Slarty:

              And the Lord said: "I'm making you an offer you can't refuse because it is already done on your behalf. You are now saved from my wrath. But to consummate the deal you must  consent to the murder that has already been committed and become a willing accessory to it. Or the deal is off and you will feel my anger and  wrath for eternity. Which is it to be?"

              Like I said before: Even if I thought it was real I wouldn't take the deal. smile

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Tell me this then:

        Do you think there should have been any consquence?

        How would that work today? crime etc

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think the UK and US legal, trial and prison system is WAY superior to accepting the death of some guy to pay for anothers wrong doing.

          I think a murderer should be in prison and not set free after killing some guy who lived down the road.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I agree, immediate justice for immediate crime. Gotta have boundaries.

            But God's court is much higher than any court man has ,so stands to reason his justice would be far reaching and for ALL time.

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
              Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It does stand to reason, yes, but since he accepts the death of someone to repay anything atall it is highly questionnable dont you think?

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Thing is ,you must take into account the law of the land during this time (God certainly did). Sacrifice for  the sin of all mankind would need to be a someone who had never sinned before or had no blemish. ( Jesus Christ)

                The Jewish custom for the atonement of sin(before Jesus,that is) was to present a living sacrifice of livestock, the sacrifice was to be a an animal with no blemish (since their income relied heavily on animal trade (farming) the slaughter of these animals took place periodically, and was quite the sacred event. Then and only then ,did they have their sins forgiven by the High Priest.

                That is why one of the names of Christ is "Lamb Of God"

                Jesus was the sacrifice for ALL mankind. Before him, they sacrificed animals for individual or family sin. It was the law of the land at that time.

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  How on earth does the fact that it was a long time ago make it OK? I know it was acceptable back then but then so was having slaves.

                  Do you honestly think that just because something was a long time ago it was acceptable?

                  How can a blood sacrifice pay for anything? It doesnt make any sense. It doesnt make sense now and it would have made just as much sense 2000 years ago.

                  Its like saying that keping slaves was ok 50 years ago.

                  No, it wasnt. It was never ok to keep slaves and the fact that it was 50 years ago does not mean it was acceptable back then.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well it sounded like you didnt understand history.

                    Youd need to take some of your complaints up with the Jewish nation then.

  4. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    "this God above all gods, sends His Son to earth to make the only restitution that can be made - death."



    Why would a god need the death of a son to repair what he is supposed to have made in the first place. smile

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      after 30yrs of studying "in one side and out the other" you post this as well
      This is why i dislike catholicism

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What has Catholicism got to do with anything? Other than being another fear ridden religion that threatens people? smile

  5. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago

    Oh, btw, it's been fun and I'm off to play elsewhere.

    smile

  6. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago

    And, after this, I really am done playing.  This only matters IF you believe in a Christian God.  If not, the quality of the argument is invalid and useless and nonsensical to anyone.  And, since I am not trying to convince or sway anyone to any set of beliefs, I'm not really arguing anything, just speculating about my own belief structure.

    Have fun, everyone.

    smile

    1. Beelzedad profile image61
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly, which is why reality does not acknowledge those beliefs.

  7. mcimicata profile image61
    mcimicataposted 5 years ago

    I believe that it is a 100% moral religion; however, I am a Christian so my opinion may be a bit biased wink

    1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Stoning rape victims to death is not moral. I really hope you dont think that it is. I really hope you are one of those christians who hasnt read the bible.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hate to be the bearer of bad news ,but dont they still follow old laws in many Arabic places? like eye for an eye sad

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yep and thats one of the reasons I hate religions. Because I think the laws were written by men thousands of years ago and since they got religious status, they are not open to change or update.

          This is why africans murder gays, americans murder abortion doctors and fundamentalist muslims kill everyone.

          Religion is the biggest cause of conflict the whole world over and there is no need for it.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Do you know that Jesus abhored Religious men too?

            In fact he called their hearts like 'white washed sepchres' Jesus likened them to the inside of a tomb!! that was pretty nasty and also revealing.

            He very strongly voiced his disgust at their evil.

            Corruption is evil I agree.

            I beleive in a Christ that loves and rejoices in freedom for all mankind.
            A Christ that died so that my life here on earth would not be wasted and I ,you, everyone would be reconciled to God and Eternity!

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Youre allowed to be wink you will soon meet others who are just as biased the other way round lol

      Welcome to HPages, btw smile

  8. amymarie_5 profile image88
    amymarie_5posted 5 years ago

    I think the person who asks the question about why christ's death is celebrated is not meant to offend. There's nothing wrong with questioning religion. I absolutely understand the point and agree that it's a bit odd. I'm a former catholic by the way.

  9. s82a84 profile image62
    s82a84posted 5 years ago

    That's is really hard to accept and forgive someone who's murderer, so according to human standard, all killer should go to hell and suffer the eternal damnation. But, for our heavenly father "GOD" has different standard and willing to forgive our sin as long as we repent our sin and accept Jesus Christ as our savior.

    No matter how good or bad, God loves every mankind on earth. All human are treated equal and we're loving by God.

    Bottom line is that we all need to obey God and his rule. God is perfect and we can't compare our-self to God's Standard. Hope that Helps.

    Seho

  10. 70
    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

    Slarty O'Brian wrote:

    Is it moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man? If you accept that the person is murdered to give you everlasting life aren’t you just as guilty of the crime? If a man said to his son, let them murder you and I forgive all of them their debts to me. What would you think of that man? That he is crazy? An egomaniac? 

    Paarsurrey says:

    I agree with you.

    Really it would be a very immoral act by any standards; but this Jesus never believed in; this philosophy is wrongly invented by Paul and cruelly continued by the Church; in this sense Paul and the Church are both anti-Christ. They have nothing to do with Jesus or Mary; they were peaceful and loving persons; couldn't think of this immoral philosophy or act.

  11. Eaglekiwi profile image75
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    The Romainian state does make it difficult.

    Do some more research.

  12. Eaglekiwi profile image75
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    Morals indeed or is it lack of morals?

  13. 70
    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

    Is Christianity really a moral religion?

    Christianity starts with an immoral act; father killing a son or daughter; but that is from Paul, scribes and the Church; they started Christianity with poor morals.

    Jesus was a standard of morals like Krishna, Buddha,Zorosater, Moses and Muhammad, in this sense they were brothers; all the prophets messengers.

  14. Eaglekiwi profile image75
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    No Gods judgement is not a mockery.

    You think for one moment that all these religions astound him ? surprise him.

    Or the sins of man ,or the lies that people tell about him ,or the people he communicates with, or even that He is not interested in the affairs of man.

    God will not be mocked and He will someday judge us all!

  15. Eaglekiwi profile image75
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    Only God knows for sure.

    If youre right ,then yep Id have about as much chance of being Muslim (or not)

    But thats not my reality is it?

    And I know how much you guys like to keep it real hmm

    1. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sure, but reality needs to be tested. smile

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        But whats the difference ,I mean what are you saying?


        If I was born in the USA and therefore American ,I would be indoctrinated ( really is not the right word) as an American.

        I was born in New Zealand ,therefore I am indoctrinated as a New Zealander-Kiwi.

        I can accept influenced ,or imprinted , to a degree.

        I suspect brainwashed is another word you favour?

        Im just getting what your point is?

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The point I am making, is that peoples beliefs are subject to their environment.

          So it is not a matter of having "the one true god," it is subjective.

          How can a person of a particular religion claim to have truth when under different influences their beliefs would be entirely different? I have put the same question to my muslim friends.
          We are the product of our environment, so any belief will be subjective and therefore anything but set in concrete as most religionists are.
          I am no longer a christian as you know, because I broadened my horizons partly through traveling and absorbing other cultures.
          I have seen many who believe in a god, but usually just one. The one they were indoctrinated to believe.
          If the word atheist were to be applied, it would apply to all the worlds religionists who do not accept each others gods.
          It is all madness.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well I bow down to the God I know.

            I also accept there are many thousands of other believers out there from all the four corners so to speak ,who worship the God they know.

            Yes there is unity ,and yes there is conflict.
            (Conflict is a mankind problem ,not a Religious one)

            My goodness I can even go to church with a nieghbour and we can still have a different perspective on say , scripture.

            Since the 12 tribes of Judah spread far and wide,it stands to reason that so did doctrines and creeds.

            One Love -One God

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Not very logical is it? smile

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It is logical.

                A miracle in itself.

                Millions of people ,all different ,yet they share  2 things in common.

                All humans. Doesnt matter if they walk,talk and think differently.

                Born naked ,with no speech ,no knowledge ,innocent.

                Still human.

                Same creator.

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi kiwi, You are absolutely correct. big_smile

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey W.O.C always good to see you grace the forums smile

  16. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    I'm outta here!

    Too much ducking and diving, no grasp on reality at all from any of you.
    Never let truth get in the way of fear.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ok cya

  17. Eaglekiwi profile image75
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    God does the choosing ...wink not us.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What choosing? If you choose nothing, then you have no free will.

      But, your consciousness and free thought, defeats your own statement. Nice try though.

      1. Druid Dude profile image60
        Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        If you choose nothing, you've still made a choice...Don't you listen to "Rush"? As it is practiced, the adherents of mainstream christianity fall far below what is actually expected of them. None are Christ-like enough to pull off the messiah bit. Pauline thought actually led them astray from the teachings of Jesus, and went beyond the bounds of the early church. The more time passed, the further off the true path they have strayed. You all stress out when you perceive that there are certain rules to follow, yet, living in any society, there are rules to follow.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Of course, choosing nothing is not to be confused with not choosing anything.

          Two very different things.

        2. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually Druid, there are no rules from any external authority required. One can guide themselves, based on building their own character, through the choices the make. And, yes, doing nothing is a choice, but how does it reflect on one's character?

          And, for your statement about Pauline thoughts, I would agree. The church strayed from the original teachings Jesus tried to instill before he was executed. Those in power saw him as a threat, which was the main reason for his execution, not the sins of humankind. wink

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh it was better than a try ,it was correct according to the word of God.

  18. secularist10 profile image91
    secularist10posted 5 years ago

    To answer the original question, by Christian standards, sure Christianity is moral. But that's just circular logic, of course. By a rational sense of right and wrong... probably not.

    In other news, it's so good to know that the Word of God is consistent and reliable. How could a viable moral system arise from an inconsistent doctrine?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

    1. 70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Is it moral to kill one's son; the first teaching of Paul's "Christianity"?

      I think it is immoral.

      1. Greek One profile image81
        Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        is it moral to have 3000 wives?

  19. rocketjsqu profile image85
    rocketjsquposted 5 years ago

    Phew!  That is a long thread...

    Morality by definition is "...a sense of behavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong)...In its "descriptive" sense, morality refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores that distinguish between right and wrong in the human society. Describing morality in this way is not making a claim about what is objectively right or wrong, but only referring to what is considered right or wrong by an individual or some group of people (such as a religion).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

    "Is Christianity really a moral religion?"

    If morality is determined by following a set of rules that decide between right and wrong, then, yes; Christianity is a moral religion.

    The rules were set forth in advance of them being broken.  The rules determine the actions and consequences that must be taken to ensure the integrity of the moral standard. 

    "If you accept that the person is murdered to give you everlasting life aren’t you just as guilty of the crime?"  Those who committed the crime should be rightly punished.

    Receiving the benefits of His death does not make you accountable for His death. 

    If your father was murdered and you accepted a monetary payment from his life insurance policy, does that make you as guilty as the murderer?

    Accepting Jesus death as payment for your sins is a perfectly moral thing to do when you understand why it happened the way it did.

    1. 70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus did not die on the Cross; so it is meaningless to believe that sins have anything to do with the death of another person.

      If one has headache; giving a pill to another person won't cure one.

      1. 70
        paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this
 
working