A common interpretation of Genesis 6 is that 'fallen angels' mated with women.
This idea also occurs in alchemy.
Presumably, it appears in other religions/mythologies?
Yes, and isn't it strange that throughout the animal kingdom cross species mating either doesn't produce or in some close species produces sterile offspring, while the human female is magically able to mate with all manner of extra terrestrials and 'spirits' and produce perfect human children in the process?
It's great what stories folk have invented to explain unwanted pregnancies
I see in the book of Enoch that was in the dead sea scrolls that this idea is elaborated on - the fallen angels mated with humans and also taught them how to work metals etc. Is what the alchemists believe.
Nothing like a bit of metalwork after the pillow talk.
I love the book of Enoch - a lot of it is pure science fiction with dashes of supporting evidence. He claims to have been lifted up into the clouds and transported north to where there were crystal trees, the detail of his journey would seem to have taken him right up north, possibly Iceland and back to what could possibly be the ancient peoples of Ireland and he describes a building just like the original of the reconstructed white stone temple in Ireland. Also to kind of back up his extra-terrestrial type story he is the only other character who ascended into heaven, maybe the ET's took him home with them ?
Don't blame me - he wrote it !!!! and only some few thousand years ago before anyone had seen star wars !
curious thing is the writers of the bible seemed familiar with the text - there's the mating with 'children of god' in genesis, & the name of a goat-demon is mentioned elsewhere, plus references to the 'prophesies of enoch'. So not clean & cut for christians to dismiss it
Well, They can't really add the book of enoch, it would refute what they currently pass off as the true word of god.
Well - it would appear that Enoch is a bit of an embarassment to the church - and if I remember correctly there is no actual book of Enoch, just references to it and some bits that are clearly copies of parts of it, and some turned up in the dead sea scrolls.
The book I vaguely remember was suggesting that the character Enoch was maybe 5 or 6 thousand years ago and his 'book' the passed down oral story that got written up all at the same time when some dimwit invented writing and consigned us to google communication hell.
This is again the ignorant scribes; there are no fallen angels; and angels don't mate.
Not true. Last Christmas my decoration fell off the top of tree, and I don't know what you'd call that if not a fallen angel.
a dose of reality Paar...From you? wow!
they talk alot of the book of enoch on ancient aliens interesting stuff indeed! we speculate so much when its all said and done we could all be wrong.
no they did not.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the ANGELS said he at any time, Thou art my SON, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a SON?
John 1:12 But as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Philippians 2:15 That YOU may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that WE should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are WE the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
6 verses mention the sons of God and none of them are angels they are people.
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Such rubbish. the sons of god in genesis 6:4 are humans and so are the daughters of men
Enoch is a bad book. It is used in the new testament to show false doctrines that the church had been swayed into believing by outsourcing to a book with that claimed to be written by enoch but really wasn't. There are many many biblical contradictions in the book of enoch that i can't imagine people taking this as scripture. Might as well grab some doctrine from the lost books of adam and eve (more junk). It does not fit proper canon qualifications either of authorship, time period, flow and consistency.
I wont go into jobs account of the sons of god as i believe they are people also and this would be meat for most of Christendom. I have even seen one version of the NIV translate sons of god in job as angels and that really made me angry. I bought the brother another book lol.
Exelent point. I don't even believe that a written language had been invented during Enoch's lifetime.
You don't need to believe - it is common knowledge that the first working written language (in our terms) was I forget when - but some time after the Egyptians - in Sumeria I believe it might have been - easy to check, just google it.
do you have any details about the history & origins of written language (and also how it ties in with development of religion)
From Wikipedia - logograms evolved to include phonetic elements by the 29th century BC. Around the 26th century BC, cuneiform began to represent syllables of spoken Sumerian. Also in that period, cuneiform writing became a general purpose writing system for logograms, syllables, and numbers, and this script was adapted to another Mesopotamian language, Akkadian, and from there to others such as Hurrian, and Hittite. Scripts similar in appearance to this writing system include those for Ugaritic and Old Persian.
Various writing forms have been found going back 6000 years but to be able to convey complex ideas required the writing to parallel oral language. When this was achieved the oral stories were written and 'fixed' and we get the Greek mythologies written, Greek philosophy survives because it was written and the collection of ancient myths that ended up in the middle east scrolls are from this time I believe. The new idea of writing was kinda 'magic' I guess and only the rulers really had access to it, and then only through their 'scribes' as most didn't do this menial work themselves it would appear.
I guess this is the origin of the phrase from the bible "and the word was made god", and the metaphysical 'idea' of something beyond us, the unknown, was touted as real because it suited the ruler to be there by divine right, when in truth most of them were just vicious super criminals with no morals, as they still are
I thought writing would have been around at least 1000BCE. Did they just use symbols for a time?
roughly pictures developed into pictograms into logorams and various symbols for different things - so names, places and things could be put together to form a sequence of characters like king x killed king y and 'got' city z. But narrative writing that could describe those events came when an alphabet linked to vocal sounds developed into a form of writing that 'works' in some ways as we know today. Different parts of the world at different times and used mostly for govenment and communication between parts of kingdoms etc.
I think you 1000 BCE is in the middle of that time. The Chinese of course took logograms a slightly different route and developed their set of characters in a different way to get to a similar point.
All this is roughly as I understand it all developing. If there was a real character Moses, and as there is no physical evidence of the exodus story or the man as far as I am aware, then he would have been about the time that pointed adn rounded stylus were being used to imprint clay tablets with a very early form of writing, maybe Cuneiform ? but anyone can go check this out on Wiki - it has a reasonably good section on it.
Sumerian' were the first to invent writing in the Western world. Maybe the first anywhere. They started their civilization around 5000 bce. Probably invented writing between 4000 and 3500 bce. Perhaps earlier.
I posted the answer to this earlier - the early writing was pictographic and that developed into various different logo based characters - but none of them were able to record complex things such as a story - until the development of the alphabet - but I already said all this earlier
But the Cuneiform texts we have dating back to 3000 BCE do tell complex stories. They are not pictographs. They look more like chicken scratchings, but you are right their written language was used mainly for commerce and trade, but also to record their religion.
Can you give an example of a Cuneiform text that describes their religion ?
I have a translated version of the flood. I have a translated version of a lament.
A man and his god: translation
1-9A person should steadfastly proclaim the exaltedness of his god. A young man should devoutly praise the words of his god; the people living in the righteous Land should unravel them like a thread. May the balaj singer assuage the spirit of his neighbour and friend. May it soothe their (?) hearts, bring forth ......, utter ......, and measure out ....... Let his mouth shaping a lament soothe the heart of his god, for a man without a god does not obtain food.
10-17There is a young man who does not wickedly put his efforts into evil murder, yet he spends the time in grief, asag illness and bitter suffering. The fate demon has brought need and ...... close to him. Bitter ...... has confused his judgment (?) of it, and covered his ....... Behind his back they have overpowered him like a ....... Before his god the youth, the young man weeps bitterly over the malice he has suffered. He is reverent and performs obeisance.
There is lots more but I just wanted to give you a sample.
This is interesting - what or where is it translated from and is it dated in any way ?
Kramer translated it and he dates it to 2300 BCE
I think he is claiming it is Sumerian Job. But I am trying to get his book to be sure. It used to be on the net, which is where I copied it from ages ago. But now I can't find it anywhere or I would have given you a link.
why did the women give birth to giants when they bred with the 'sons of god'? Sounds like the 'sons of god' weren't in god's good books
the verse says that there were giants int the land BEFORE ...
There were giants in the earth IN THOSE DAYS; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men.
The sons of god were not in gods good books, the flood is mentioned right after this. There is a principle here, in Gods word, that we as christians (sons of god) are not to take wives from the UNchristians (daughters of men). Solomon did this and it was accredited to his idolatry and downfall, for one example.
and why does Jude 1:14 say that Enoch prophesied, but nowhere else in the bible supports that? Are bits of the bible missing?
exactly. Jude is all about false doctrines and it gives a few examples of these false beliefs by quoting them. The jewish readers would have known that these were false because they are not supported in the OT. Jesus does not mention the book of enoch and neither is the angelology of enoch remotely supported in the NT.
Bits of the bible are not missing just like the bible does not contradict itself.
where does it say these are false doctrines?
Why is a greek philosopher that believed Zeus is immortal quoted in Titan?
http://www.christianforums.net/f15/epim … ible-8698/
this is sort of an off topic adventure which interrupts my other scheduled time but i did peruse the avenue and came up with this.
Epimenides is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. I read titus (always a good read) and the scripture in question. But the quote of E. exists in titus.
I researched Epimenides and discovered that he existed in 600bc. fair enough i thought. I noticed that titus is talking about false teachers (so prevalent in that time as well as now) and my interpretation of that scripture is that paul is telling titus to rebuke them (the cretes) sharply for they are liars, etc. I do not find this to be something to ponder overly much. Do we have any cretes in here. i wonder. Further if it is said by liars that zeus was immortal, they should be reproved for this. My knowledge of Paul is that he is a staunch follower of Jesus Christ therefore in context with his teachings i do not for a moment believe that Paul said Zeus is immortal because Paul when in rome said of the Gods of rome, "i believe that you are all too superstitious". Acts 17:22ish
Many have failed to realize that the book of Enoch was written approximately 200 BC. This is quite a long time after he was translated to heaven.
He lived approximately 4000 BC, give or take a few years.
Not true - most people are aware of the supposed time period of Enoch - I mentioned it at the start of this thread.
Also it was not written 200 BC - the oral story is referred to by many ancient documents and there was clearly a copy laying around for other ancient texts to mention also, long before that time.
but the bible wasn't written down in 4000BC
Exodus 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exodus 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount (mount Sinai).
There was writing and material to write on when moses was on the mountain for the 40+ days.
God used the stone tablets to display the permanence of the 10 commandments. Stone was not the only writing material.
Yes, and examples can be found all throughout history. Incubi and Succubi were found in the medieval ages, tied with all their other superstitions. For those who don't know, an Incubus is a fallen angel who sleeps with women, and a Succubus with men. They are said to be extremely seductive beings. However, more than likely they were created to explain "sexual desires" that were being fulfilled alone at night.
But many religions have examples of them. Almost all religions of the left-handed path will have some form of them. Wherever there are angels, there will be some who fell.
Those who believe statements about fallen angels mating with human women is simply the book of Enoch might be interested in what the Aposotolic Fathers Irenaeus and Justin Martyr had to say about it:
Since the Son of God is always one and the same, He gives to those who believe on Him a well of water [springing up] to eternal life, but He causes the unfruitful fig-tree immediately to dry up; and in the days of Noah He justly brought on the deluge for the purpose of extinguishing that most infamous race of men then existent, who could not bring forth fruit to God, since the angels that sinned had commingled with them, and [acted as He did] in order that He might put acheck upon the sins of these men, but [that at the same time] He might preserve the archetype, the formation of Adam.
- Irenæus, Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter XXXVI; Roberts & Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1, Pgs. 865-866
But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and
partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness.
- Second Apology of Justin Martyr, Chapter V; Roberts & Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1, Pg. 298
You can read more of what the Apostolic Fathers said on this topic by clicking on my profile and reading my hub concerning the Characteristics of Demons.
This is again the ignorant scribes; there are no fallen angels; and angels don't mate.
I once mated with a beautiful Angel.... 5 foot 9, blond, was working in Vegas to raise money for university....
come to think of it, Angel might have just been her stage name
by Samuel Selvage6 years ago
i find it very deep but from my research so far its in reguard of an old race of beings (the sons of God) which made a new race of beings called (the Nephilim),from daughters of humankind so could they still exist...
by Audrevea5 years ago
Any thoughts about the Book of Enoch? I've just started reading - the angels who came to earth and procreated with human women are in big trouble and I've just read pages and pages on the horrible punishment God has in...
by Jason4 years ago
In 1 Samuel 18 it tells us The Lord sent an evil spirit to torment Saul. What was this evil spirit?In Genesis 6:4 it tells us of Nephilim. The ancient Hebrews translate this as giants and fallen ones. They were known as...
by JimLow7 years ago
The link I'm pasting below is an audio lecture I made on the "Genesis Gap" - "PreAdamic Creation" teaching. If this area of study interests you, you can click the link (takes you to a 2nd link) and...
by Holly5 years ago
When we say we have an angel watching over us, what does that mean? What do you expect the angel does for you? I believe in angels-as many people do, and I have my own beliefs in who my angel is and what he is watching...
by Rad Man4 years ago
I just to the time to reread Genesis as it had been a while since reading all of it. Do you think it's a lesson in morality? Would you read it all to children?
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