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Faithful To Our Beliefs.

  1. 61
    SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

    Those of us that believe in" Jesus The Christ",Truly believe the only way to salvation is through Him.We only can hope for everyone else.

    1. Beelzedad profile image61
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well said.

      You managed to raise yourself up firmly upon a platform of superiority and righteousness, contemptibly pondering only briefly the plight of the inferior non-believing rabble.  smile

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, that comes across loud and far too clear. smile

        1. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          lol
          You two cannot even understand a simple statement.
          If you went up to your dad whose name is johnson and said, mr evergreen wants me to have a truck. The first question your dad (mr johnson) would ask is who is mr evergreen?.
          The only way to God is through Christ is because Christ is connected to God. Despite the fact that Christ is God in the flesh, Himself, there can be no denial of Jesus being the way to God. The OT is not a separate book over there with a completely different God tacked on the end of it. It is not a SUPPOSED continuation... This is ONE book. Christ came to fulfill the OT and thusly, HE, Jesus is the way to God.
          Sorry if ya don't like it or approve of it or want to accept it, so deny away as best as you will, it doesn't change anything.
          There is only way to God and that is through Christ Jesus ON the CROSS. When we deny that Jesus is important we deny the Cross is important. Since Gods Son died on that cross.. to say the cross is unimportant is ridiculous and any belief that states the cross is unimportant is as unimportant as the belief. Zero.
          This does not elevate the christian above all else, although it does say they know the way, call it a paradox if you will.
          Good luck with this.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ________
            You're sure about all your statements?

      2. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Salvation? lol

      3. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Agreed, with your first sentence; amen!   But yes we can hope, and pray, for others, and fulfill the commission of taking the message to others.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Any god who is going to punish me for simply not believing he exists does not deserve my worship. He can go p*ss up a flagpole for all I care.

          1. Dave Mathews profile image59
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            He may punish you but we only punish those we love the ones that need love more than the others. God loves you and will always love you regardless of what you say or think and regardless of whether you love him back.

            1. Beelzedad profile image61
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I cannot for the life of me understand your logic, Dave. Are you sure that statement wasn't a typo or something like that?

              Are you seriously saying that the more one needs love, the more they deserve to be punished?



              If the amount of punishment increases proportionally with the need for love from your god, what reason would one have for wanting to love him back?

              Again Dave, where is the logic in your reasoning? smile

            2. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
              Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So what? How on earth can you think that love means anything coming from someone who burns you in hell for eternity for the simple act of not believing he exists.

              You worship a sadistic arsehole and by the sounds of it, you dont know what love is.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Its not love which counts. Its the stakes that dictate the circumstances. God  will live on this earth FOREVER and He wants to live with like minded people. This is not a hard issue to grasp for anyone. Since we are talking about forever, time without end in this context... time without end. This means all decisions are final and cannot be recounted. It wouldn't be paradise if people were flying off the handle every so often or sewing discontent. Loving, kind, generous people can live in harmony, but whining, complainy atheists can't. This is proven in hubpages. The atheists are all on some mission to blurt out inconsistencies and lies in order to destroy and that kinda action mr. just don't cut it in Gods world.
                So its not a punishment that you can't inherit what God has its more a point of you couldn't handle it properly or you are just plain unworthy.
                I think the bible actually uses the word unworthy. That doesn't mean you are a bad person per se, it means more you don't measure up or you don't fill the qualifications. One i am sure is believing in Him and of course if you don't believe in Him you are not going to live like He wants you too and if you are not going to live like He wants you too... then you should not get what He has for you.
                Ya don't have to like it, you don't have to agree, but you did read it so now you know. So much for innocence. smile

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That makes perfect sense brotherchanyan. Of course you cant possibly claim that he is an "all loving" god in light of these views.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes i can actually.
                    He loved a small, frail people who were slaves, enough to free them from their bondage.
                    God persevered with them for thousands of years.
                    When the time was right, God extended himself to the heathens or gentile races.
                    God persevered with them for thousands of years.
                    No matter what a person has done, if they will repent before God and humble themselves and pray and ask forgiveness, He shall be quick to forgive. This is the process of salvation. Simple, doesn't cost anything but pride.
                    Then God asks that a person listen to Gods direction and allow God to teach you what you need to know, this is the sanctification process. You will be surprised at what God wants to teach and the loving way that God teaches it.

                    1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I think you missed the word "all" out of al loving. You cannot claim that god is ALL loving while he sends ANYONE to hell for ANY reason.

                      Especially since it is an infinate punishment for a finite crime.

                2. thebrucebeat profile image59
                  thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Your argument doesn't quite hold water, though, does it?  If God gave eternal life to those he wanted to hang with for eternity and let all others simply die and disappear, his goal of hanging with his like minded homies would be accomplished.  There would be no need to punish the downer dudes for eternity.  What would be accomplished by that?  Just cruelty.  There is more to it that the postulate you make.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You need to become more familiar with my hubs and beliefs before you venture into other areas with me.
                    I don't believe in eternal punishment.

                    I really didn't understand what you said
                    are you talking of predestination?

                    It wasn't actually an argument either. It is a bunch of biblical factoids stated in a row. Buddy asked me to support my belief in love and so very very briefly i did. Now i seem to perceive that you want to discuss something else?

                    1. thebrucebeat profile image59
                      thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      So you believe the unsaved simply pass on and the scriptural evidence for eternal punishment should be ignored or interpreted away?
                      Don't know how calvinism got in the conversation.  What lead you to that assumption?

      4. 0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You know. There was a time I agreed with your statement that Jesus was my salvation, but it never made sense to assume everyone else was wrong. If you want to believe that, feel free; but have the courtesy to leave others to know what's best for them.

        It is the height of arrogance to hope there comes a day when everyone agrees with your personal philosophy and attempt to impose it on others by telling them only you know what's best for them.

        1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It is really great to see you stating your opinions with a wideopen mind...looking at things from both sides of the coin...And you still manage to stay true to those beliefs that you hold as truths...sweetness...big_smile

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. smile

            But that's what's cool about truth. Everybody has it, and everyone's truth is different. It's what makes this site so interesting. Don't you think?

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Of course...This is a great place...I learn something new everyday

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Me too. That subject you and beelzedad brought up yesterday really got my mind rolling. It makes a lot of sense so far. Haven't worked through it all, but it's an incredibly interesting concept.

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Talking with others that have different views, and can explain the bible in a different light than you are used to hearing, always those with an open mind to re-evaluate how they originally interpreted the writings. Also, researching into the actual original words and the context in which they were used when written, clears up alot of mis-understandings...At least for me...

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't know about clearing things up. Especially with the Bible. Just figuring out who's right with the placement of a comma changes everything.

                    But I like this site. Sometimes ten people say the same thing, but only one of them presents it in a way that cuts through and gets heard by the individual. I wandered around this place for a month scratching my head at what we were all arguing about.

                    Sometimes I wish I could go back to the threads and review the conversations to see if people were actually as difficult as I thought they were back then. I try to be open minded, but they actually made me cry a couple of times because it all seemed so incredibly mean. Now everybody seems pretty reasonable. So, it must have been me.

      5. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seeker, Agreed. Jesus is the way.

      6. Dave Mathews profile image59
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        As a child of God and a Brother to Jesus and The Holy Spirit, my heart goes out to all who deny God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit, for they will never know "True Happiness", or peace and contentment.

        1. Beelzedad profile image61
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree, that is what a child might think. smile

        2. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Really Dave! That is not the view I would expect from a happy person. smile

          1. Dave Mathews profile image59
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Since you don't know me, how do you know what to expect from me? But what I say is truth.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I don't need to know you Dave.
              Your threatening people with punishment through your god gives it to me real easy.

              Psych 101.

              Threatening others with your opiniion from a book lets me see your intention clearly.

              Claiming to have an invisible entity who is on your side of an equasion is a mental illness that I can detail for you if you like.

              It's common name is megalomania. smile
              If you really want to discuss anything you may like to look at what you are saying first.

              1. Dave Mathews profile image59
                Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You don't even know what you are talking about. I never threatened anything to any person. God will work His will in every person.

                1. Beelzedad profile image61
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Funny how you follow up the claim that you never threatened anything to any person, with a threat. smile

                  1. Dave Mathews profile image59
                    Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You are an old fool. Where is the threat in what I say. "God will work His will in every person." I see no threat or perceived threat in that statement. You just like hearing your own voice no matter how foolish it may sound to others.

                    1. Beelzedad profile image61
                      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Aw, c'mon Dave, I'm not that old.



                      Dave, if I went around saying things like "God will work His will in every person" then I could very well be perceived as one who likes to hear the sound of their own voice.

                      The threat in that statement is based on our knowledge of what your god has already done and what he says he will do to people when his commands are or are not obeyed, for example.

                      The fact that you said 'in every person' would be reason to automatically include me in how your "God will work His will".

                      Well Dave, it's pretty obvious I don't obey your gods commands, and we both know where your god plans to leave me as a result.

                      So, if you didn't make that statement because you only wanted to hear the sound of your own voice, why then did you make that statement, if not a threat, also? smile

                  2. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Even funnier that he didn't see either of them! lol

      7. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seeker:
        Salvation? What'd'ya mean?
        Ya lost me!
        thanks...smile:
        Qwark

      8. Apostle Jack profile image60
        Apostle Jackposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        We all are invited to the feast of God,but everyone will not come for one reason or another.The plate of food is on the table,one should not blame God if they die of hunger .....in the matter of salvation and spiritual food.

      9. proudlib profile image61
        proudlibposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have many problems with religion in general and Christianity in particular.  You have stated one of the most disturbing.  Any God who decides that George w. Bush, who is responsible for the torture of many and the death of as many as 100,000 people, is worthy of salvation, when my gay son is not, is not deserving of my belief, let alone reverence.  a religion which thinks it appropriate to protest at military funerals with signs that say ":God hates Fags."  A religion that says that hurricanes are the punishment of God for gay rights.  A religion which condemns three quarters of the world's population and ensures redemption for war mongers, torturers, thieves and  hypocrites.  Which condemns the salt of the earth and elevates the scum of the earth.  I would rather worship the sun.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thank goodness your son has a father who acknowledges his gay son and has the good sense to see people as what they are regarding their sexuality.

          You have my respect and support in your beliefs and the support of any reasonable people here in my opinion.
          Hubpages has a limited number of homophobes. smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes the religion of tolerance is all accepting.
               Matthew 7:13   Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
            Enjoy what you will. This religion of tolerance is an apt case in point for the proverbial dog biting the hand that feeds it.
            If we accept tolerance, we must do away with the bible and last time i checked, this is not what God was all about.

            1. Beelzedad profile image61
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So, god is all about intolerance?

              1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                just like you are intolerant

        2. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Who said you gay son was unworthy of salvation? Whats the point of salvation if past sins deny any participation in salvation? The entire point or job of salvation is to clear the slate of Past sins and bring us into a relationship with God. We do have to take note that repentance is connected to salvation and repentance is defined as being sorrowful of the wrongdoings to the point of turning about face, 100% and living a life, opposite to the previous lifes sinful ways. Once sin is recognized then it is the christians duty to stop the sin and this includes gayness as well as murder.
          Touching on the salt of the earth. If i have understood this correctly, it means people who lead 'good' lives, not being, for example sake, indulgent in the 7 deadly sins but leading lives that help the poor and they aren't given to bawdy drunken behavior frequently, pay their taxes.. well you get the point... they seem in all ways to be quite godly in their day to day existence. But the problem with this scenario is that they live this way without the influence of God in their lives. It is my experience that the path of ones life without God is much different that the path of ones life with God. God is able to work with every individual.. and this means that God has uses for everybody; this useage the salt of the eath type of person is unaware of and again, falls short of the glories of God in their lives. The christian is all too aware of the fact that they are not able to claim a portion in Gods realm by their own efforts or works. What God needs to do can only be done with God at the helm, dealing, changing, causing to lean on Him. Remember the commandment, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all their heart, soul and mind.
          As touching on scum... God often uses broken people, the less popular ones, indeed outcasts and worldly offenders because these people through their individual debaucheries have come to realize they need God. The scientific, rich, and just to busy individuals do not realize their need. So since, God gave his son that Whosoever, whosoever, should be saved. Salvation is open to all. But salvation is the beginning of a turn around attitude and a life, living unto God. IF someone thinks they can suck c*ck and take it up the b*m, they should think frequently about the holiness of God as should the man who serial kills and even the person who is harmful to small animals.
          As to worshiping the sun. You would be just as well off worshiping a doorknob. As lovely as the sun is, this activity is likened to someone worshiping the painting of an artist but ignoring the artist.

          1. proudlib profile image61
            proudlibposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Your own words further prove my point.  You can not mention homosexuality without immediately talking about sin and repentance.  You admit that one can live a good life without the influence of God.  "It is my experience" means that you have decided without consideration of others' wisdom and experience that your way of life is better than another's, regardless of the results of that way of life. 
            Then yhou have the audacity and the arrogance to include my son as the scum of the earth because of his sexual identity, given to him "by your God?) at birth.  and the greatest outrage you assume that he engages in certain behavior that is a sin only if committed by a male and then you say that it ranks on an equal level with serial killing. 
            You are a mean-spirited, arrogant, self-righteous, and ignorant individual.  It is chiefly because of people like you that so many reject religion.  Do your cause a favor and shut the f. up!

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am not the world's most sensitive man, but for someone to say something like this about some else's much loved son is hard to believe!
              To hide behind the words in a book to justify it is plainly despicable.
              I hope some of his own tribe have enough guts to take this up with him.

              1. Disappearinghead profile image89
                Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Mmm this is a highly charged subject so I feel I must tread carefully, and I am bound to face some criticism from one quarter or another.

                When I was in junior school, there was this lad called Karl. He was not like all the other lads. He preferred to play with the girls, he was overtly expressive, perhaps  'a drama queen' one might say. It was obvious that he was 'wired differently', and we were pretty sure he was gay. Now at the age of 10 he wasn't making some lifestyle choice, or being 'preyed upon' by the gay community. He was just being Karl who I doubt at that age had any real concept of his or anyone else's sexuality. Was he some evil sinner? Of course not.

                What I don't understand is why does the Church hate the homosexual with so much passion compared to the unmarried couples, heterosexual promiscuous, gossips, gluttons, and preachers who demand you tithe your 10%? Eating the blood of animals is strictly forbidden by the Law of Moses, and Peter in his commands to the gentile church, yet what church leader doesn't just love a medium rare steak with the blood oozing out? What church member doesn't like black pudding with their fried breakfast?

                I have no real answers here. The bible was written in a different time to different cultures with different concepts of morality. Having said that God instituted marriage as the means by which mankind should multiply and continue, and I have no authority to change or reinterpret what is written.

                What is not always appreciated is that the very same physical sexual acts practiced between gay couples, are also widely practiced between heterosexual marriages within the Church. "What's the difference?" you might ask.

                I think the Church needs to get a sense of perspective and demonstrate Yeshua in their attitudes.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                earnest
                to hide behind the book.... LOL you are a spoiled fruit arent ya.
                Since you like to quote other books and are influenced by other books, psychology maybe, do you also hide behind them?
                I'm not hiding at all.
                Gods word is Gods word. There is no sliding scale of political correctness, neither are his principles prone to dissimulation because of a new tv show on fox network.

                I deal with my sin and have dealt with many of my old sin habits and am fine now. Was it easy, nope.. was it difficult, nope... contradiction? nope.
                lol. God is good and faithful to help all those in every situation and thats another bible fact.

                sound of the buzzer, cobbie.

            2. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              proudlib... sorry to hear about your conundrum. This topic is obviously to personal for you to discuss. You want to know what the bible says and when you get it, you just rant and rave. Bible says what bible says. Personally i don't believe people are born gay but that's another topic. The fact that gayness is sin, it just that, a bible fact. This doesnt mean that they are unworthy of either salvation or understanding and yes that includes love.
              So good luck to you.
              The thing about sin is, that since God requires a person lean on him for the strength to change their lives, people, depending on how ingrained and deep the sin, can have very rough times dealiing with the troublesome albatross. Some people have not so hard a time and some have a very hard time, depending on that persons previous vices.
              again good luck.
              I don't think the church hates homosexuality, but as with all other sinful states, it does need to be dealt with. If a person comes to christ and a year later they are doing the same things, then two years and three, well, we just get another one of those hyprocritical christians don't we and everybody hates that.

              or have all the atheists come to think that for a christian to lie is completely wrong but to be gay is totally okay? My my... you peeps will have to write what you think is okay and whats not so that we christians know how to be christian, in your eyes lol
              ridiculous stuff huh.

              1. Beelzedad profile image61
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So, to make sure that the hate speech above is not your hate speech but instead the hate speech that comes directly from the bible, please quote the bible in which it deems homosexuality the same as murder.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  the same as murder..... now i know you have a comprehension problem!
                  you should get that looked at.

                  I could debate this point that all sins are the same and not one is really above another, but this is not really the actual case. Sexual sins have always brought down Gods people and after all, sex is the most enjoyable sin there is. Lets face it, if sin were not pleasurable NO ONE would DO IT. LOL But that is not an excuse for continuation in sin.
                  The problem with sin is that it is laden with traps.
                  I'll let you figure that one out much to my chagrin

                  you do get a buzzer sound but im not going to bother big_smile

                  1. proudlib profile image61
                    proudlibposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    brother
                    You are an arrogant, self-righteous hypocrite who speaks of love but expresses hate.  Don't tell my you are sorry to hear about my "conundrum."

                    I do not have a conundrum.  I love my son unconditionally and I know without a doubt that if there is a god, he would not judge him as you do.  Save your ignorance for your like-minded cohorts.  We all know how you feel, and many of us are disgusted by it.

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Been gettin lots of mail have ya? and its nice to know you speak for how many untold thousands! lol. Now that's arrogance on your part.
                      I can be sorry about your conundrum and type what i type but that doesn't mean i am not sorry. I said it like it is. Personally i have never had to deal with gayness. Even before i was saved, it made me shudder.
                      Now im sorry you like to infer untruths as truths and about me, which you know nothing about.
                      If you think i express hate, maybe you should take another Quaalude.
                      My arrogance you have mistaken for forthright speech based upon a long history with these atheists of which you number yourself among recently. I have tried many a time to put into context all the wrongness that they believe only to have them type again the same old information that has been corrected. They are only here to destroy and nothing else interests them.
                      How do you know i am a hypocrite? I would like you to expound upon that please.
                      IF you want to read my post again i hope you try to actually understand it this time. I have not judged your son, I judged his gayness. God loves your son but he doesn't appreciate the gayness. If you consider this to be wrong, then prove it. All i will do is quote scripture.
                      The fact of you loving your son is wonderful and quite natural. You kinda don't get extra marks for this sort of thing. Families are supposed to love each other and help each other. I might say, that in Gods eyes, your unconditional aspect isn't doing anybody any good and i am glad you didn't bring it up as a problem but i have to wonder why you brought it up in the first place and then to react twice so with such volition, makes me think the following:
                      i feel led to say, take the beam out of your eye before you examine the sliver in someone elses

                  2. getitrite profile image81
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah, God is ultimately concerned about the sex lives of an insignificant primate.  This is nothing but the hang-ups from profoundly ignorant, and hateful,  goat herders.

                    1. Druid Dude profile image59
                      Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      No, God is interested in what is happening with his spittin' image. Kids sure can be a headache. We need to determine what in the goatherders writings is true. Like finding Troy from descriptions in the Iliad. It can be done...it has been done. Check out on Google "oldest standing stones on earth" Then, it's back to the drawing board!

                    2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      God is concerned about all aspects of society. Sex is a biggie. As much as its desirableness is wonderful it is also a sword that has two sharp edges.
                      We can see how the misuse of sex has caused many problems in societies around the world.
                      Yes God has said how sex is to be managed.
                      Man, however, cannot even manage this simple gift of God properly.

                  3. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    _______________
                    Later I will explain the meaning of the verses that you think says that homosexuality is a sin.

                    There are so many to respond to and they take a lot of explanation

                  4. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    _______________
                    Later I will explain the meaning of the verses that you think says that homosexuality is a sin.

                    There are so many to respond to and they take a lot of explanation

                    And sins are not equal. That's not what is says.
                    It is saying no matter what you do wrong, it is the same law you break. Not that all sins are equal..just all are Gods laws so therefore the same law is broken.


                    I hope I made it clear enough to understand.

          2. Beelzedad profile image61
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Pure hate speech.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              you have a corner on that perception.
              I will break my post down for you.
              ALL sin needs to be extinguished in the christian life.
              I hope you don't think that statement is wrong.
              Sin is named in the bible.
              The point of being christian is that God leads their life.
              In the beginning he made them male and female

              I am sure i would have gained acceptance if i diluted the word of God and said, oh who cares.... whatevs, but since i am far from a hypocritical christian I cannot but speak Gods words, be it hurtful or helpful.
              Unlike you, who have only negative things to say and hurtful. Not that i value any of your posts at all, indeed i think them to be under the mire on the bottom of a deep lake for all the sense of worth they have about this particular topic.
              But do and say what you must.
              i will do the same.

              I thought your pure hate speech post, was purely hateful lol
              sound of the buzzer! as usual

              1. Beelzedad profile image61
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Christians have been "extinguishing" for centuries that which they consider evil and sinful. Millions have been slaughtered as a result. Yeah, I get that.



                Unbelievable behavior. sad

                1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  are you still parroting this!?? Haven't you learned anything while being here

                  unbelievable behavior.
                  If you are referring to the acquisition and of course i believe you are... I am amazed that what happened back so long ago is still a burr under your bonnet. All that sympathy you carry around must truly be a burden and to be a herald for something dead so long ago... wow I just call this unbelievable behavior.
                  Reminder again.. the catholics at the time of the acquisition were not christian by any means. They were a power hungry and control minded people, following the ways of their flesh and the dictates of their era and certainly not the "love your neighbor as thyself" which jesus taught.
                  Christianity 101 my friend.
                  If that is all you get, i will remind you of two things.
                  1) There is more understanding outside of your limited thinking
                  2) You are wayyyyy over your head in even trying to post your prehistoric notions of the way you get things because truly, you get things wrong

                  another buzzer sound should remind you how many things you have gotten wrong. sad

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    As far as the buzzer goes, that thing broke long time ago; buzzing so fast and furious at the fallacies  in your philosophy you tend to ramble on about. Such hateful speech as was displayed in your previous posts is truly disappointing, coming from someone who claims to be Christian.

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      please quote the hateful speech so i can show you where you are out in left field and give you the sound of the buzzer.
                      Such an outlandish post as this one... you ought to be ashamed of yourself. The only buzzer sound, sounding is at beelies ridiculous notions and now you have one also.
                                          please to quote the hateful speech

                  2. Beelzedad profile image61
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Really? And yet, I see that same behavior in you and not the behavior Jesus would have taught.




                    It only reminds me of a very unhealthy obsession with buzzers on your part.

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      odd how you want to turn the buzzer around and put it on me and blame me for sounding the whistle on you.. you really are a piece of work. I will just remind you, since you seem to have the buzzer out of perspective also. The buzzer sounds when you say something stupid.

                      I also noticed that you sidestepped all the points in my prior post, so i can assume that i am correct and that you know i am correct, therefore, live the life of a high moralist atheist and exude a defeated attitude will ya.

      10. Jaydeus profile image79
        Jaydeusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Religion is for those that are afraid of death and need supernatural reassurance that their life was not in vain.  It closes the mind, exploits the heart, and squanders the soul.  For one to think 99% of our species is damned to ''hell'' in an extra-dimension for not accepting an all loving God that lets millions innocent children suffer starvation is ridiculous.
        God's will is determined by the believer as such non-sense is obviously absurd in the willed-upon's eyes.

      11. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ------------------
        Explain what you mean "through him"

      12. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Go ahead and believe in your delusion. Don't worry about us. We don't need to be saved since our god is a fantasy.

      13. Shahid Bukhari profile image60
        Shahid Bukhariposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Muslims, most Firmly Believe, in Jesus, the Christ, son of The Blessed Virgin, Mary. Peace be Upon Him.
        To us Muslims, he is doubtlessly an exalted  Prophet of God ... Granted The Book, and Miracles.

        Muslims thus, Believe, in The Truth, Stated by Jesus, the Christ, son of Blessed Mary, Peace be Upon him.

        Muslims Believe, that Salvation of the then Present, shall be Effected by Jesus, the Christ, in End Times ... Thus, he is The Sign, of End Times, Peace be Upon The Christ.

        Thus, Muslims Believe Doubtlessly, that Jesus Christ, Is, to be the Causer, of Eventual Human Salvation. Before End Time. Peace be Upon him.

        Muslims Believe, he will gather his Lost sheep. Peace be Upon him.

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago

      That's odd.  'Cause He still cares about you.

      1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
        Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        He cares so much he's sending me to hell just because I dont believe he exists?

        You should do stand up.

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Are you sure you don't believe in Jesus?

          1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
            Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I believe there is a good chance that Jesus existed and why not? Who cares and what does it matter?

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Because He died for you, and the Scriptures tell us that He is God, the God of Love.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah and other scriptures tell us that Vishnu created the universe with his servant Brahma so what can you do?

                1. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  We can believe whatever we want to believe.  And we can choose to believe the one that makes sense.  Unless "Vishnu" died for me and his writings make sense in all ways, I'm not believing it.

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    How do you believe in what you want to believe? I can't make myself believe in anything if I dont think it is true. It is impossible.

                    Can you make yourself believe in santa? I mean if you really wanted to? Can you?

                    1. 0
                      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I think, yes, if I wanted to, I could!  When we want to believe something, we surround ourselves with images or things that relate to that, and we seek out people who believe, and we engage in activities that encourage our desires.   It's kinda like the liar who keeps saying he's not lying, and after a while he starts to believe he's telling the truth or at least convinces himself that he's doing nothing wrong.

                      There's one difference with the belief in Christ...
                      The Holy Spirit can and will confirm your choice and belief, and will even help you believe.

                      There are times when I'm tempted to not believe.  And then I remember the Scripture that says "Lord I believe.  Lord help my unbelief."

                      Same with Love.  You can pray for Love for somebody that you may not even like, maybe even has abused you in some way or other, or your enemies.  Jesus commanded us to Love our enemies.  So, part of believing is actually obeying....

                  2. Beelzedad profile image61
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    If you had actually made a choice, that would different altogether.

                    Clearly though, there were no choices made.

                    First of all, you didn't make a choice to believe, you were indoctrinated to believe. Secondly, you have no clue what Vishnu says, hence have no idea if he died for you or if you agree with the writings. You never read those writings, how could you possible know? smile

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I think many people who were indoctrinated into christianity, all have wondered about its genuineness and i think that spurred them onward to read the bible more and question the passages, search the meanings and ask their own heart whats true. Some fell away, for a period of time and came back, some have not come back. So this indoctrination idea of yours as you put forth as a working brainwashing, i think has its moments, years of failure. IF all people who were indoctrinated never left God then i might say it could be dangerous. But let us not forget to add to your little equation that even those indoctrinated have left. Some have come back and others are still out there.
                      In another avenue. You are totally sucked up in this believing the physical is all there is. You believe the world is your God or your indoctrination, meanwhile, many religions say that this world is only an illusion. To them you are believing in an illusion. I think you better hustle on over to the Buddha forums and tell them they are wrong too and lets not forget the other religions that do not believe as you do. I see you as being very busy with your indoctrinated belief in worldliness.

    3. 62
      sunny5555posted 5 years ago

      I agree with Brenda, you do not have to believe in God or anything about God and HE will always love his children, with or without punishment. HE never stops loving.

    4. Cagsil profile image81
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago

      Hey Brenda,

      I'm going to interject something here-

      Jesus made the claim to be god in open court.

      He was accused of blasphemy by said court members.

      Then he was executed for that crime.

      How in the world could you possibly believe he died for the sins of humankind?

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You mean because he was accused of blasphemy and condemned by a court?   Their opinion has no bearing on my believing.  "Let God be true and every man a liar."

        1. Cagsil profile image81
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So you are denying that he was executed for a crime he committed? hmm

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No.  In the eyes of the powers-that-were in the legal system of that day, He was executed for a crime.  Yet He was no more a criminal than anyone else.
            But the whole thing was a result of God's plan all along.

            1. Cagsil profile image81
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, if he didn't make the claim, then he wouldn't have died.

              1. 0
                Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                True.
                He was on a mission.  And He accomplished it.

                1. Cagsil profile image81
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  hmm
                  Yes, he was.
                  Actually, he didn't. His teachings were manipulated before being entered into the Bible. This is a fact, simply because of the translation attempts changed words, context and overall meaning of his teachings. Every believer I've ever met all agree that he was against "religion" of his time, yet his teachings are IN it. He despised "religion" of his time and told people to not follow the false idol preached by "religion".

                  Yet, many people continue to follow "religion" known as Christianity. hmm

                  1. 0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well stated cagsil.

                  2. DoubleScorpion profile image85
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Some will never see Cags...They are reading with a pre-determined interpretation of the words and teachings. Some cannot see past what they have been taught.

                    1. Cagsil profile image81
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Thank you wink
                      I understand that DS. I've had this argument with my own mother who was a devout believer. And, now she finally understands.

                    2. 0
                      just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Well, its understandable. To a degree. I know my relatives are told not to listen to anything other than the literature their organization puts out. I try to be polite, but theirs is what I call a Dr. Doolittle religion. Apparently they are going to walk and talk with the animals on earth for eternity and I'm going to some rubbish heap to be burned. It's all a hoot when I'm in a good mood. Not so much fun at other times.

                  3. mistyhorizon2003 profile image89
                    mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well said Cags, and as you know I rarely venture into this 'warzone' but I had to say you summed the situation up in a perfect way.

                    Although I do believe in a 'God' (as a Pagan myself) I do still find the 'Bible' and the frequent quotes from it to back up Christian beliefs, well beyond what I am willing to accept for the exact reasons you state. Too many mistranslations and human manipulations to be credible as a 'back up the argument' source.

                    I now politely leave you it smile

                    1. Cagsil profile image81
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Thank you kindly Misty. It's always a pleasure to see you. smile big_smile

                  4. 0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Then let me be the first Christian to say Jesus wasn't necessarily against religion.  His Father (God) (and He, God, but that's another subject)...was the instituter of "religion".....the literal Law including the Ten Commandments which He inscribed literally on stone tablets...
                    Yet even then, Faith was a heart matter, not just a matter of following strict literal rules.

                    What Jesus did was to "Spiritualize" most of that religion by offering Himself as a literal sacrifice.   
                    He was upset with many of the religious leaders because they couldn't see past the literal interpretation of the Law, even though they were supposedly experts concerning it.  And He didn't like the Pharaseeical approach to "religion" because of that very reason.

                    The Bible says the only pure religion is to visit the fatherless and widowed and to keep one's self unspotted from the world.
                    Yet it also makes it clear that simply following commandments without a heart of Love is unfruitful.

                    I for one don't believe the Bible is mis-translated.  And I don't claim to be religious because I realize that rituals won't get me to Heaven, but Loving God will.   It's difficult for some people, unbelievers or believers, even, to understand the concept of simple Christianity;  so many people think a person has to belong to a specific church or denomination.  But I don't.    It's tempting to avoid the term "Christian" because it's so often confused with one of those denominations, etc.
                    Probably the most well-known religion is Catholicism, and many non-believers use that as the standard for opinions and discussion about Christians, forgetting or dismissing simple Christianity.   But I will still call myself a Christian, no matter how unpopular it may become, because that title  bears the same title as my Savior.

                    1. Cagsil profile image81
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Actually you are now mixing two religions together to mold your belief. The first 5 books are the TORAH from the Jewish/Hebrew Religion which is older than Christianity. Therefore, your incorrect.

                      Actually, rulers at the time of Jesus were into the literal understanding of the Torah and it was to be adhered to without disobedience. It actually had nothing to do with faith.
                      Actually incorrect again.
                      He was against them because they were liars. Nothing more.
                      Again, you pick from the bible which is your fault. Which was already explained in previous comments. Not to mention, you apparently don't understand "how primitive language" was.

                      I understand Jesus' teaching about "Love" and "Compassion(Mercy)". So please...let's not go there.
                      Again, failure to understand language is got you believing something untrue. What a shame.
                      Brenda, I was a believer in a god and my studies of Christianity is what lead me to learn it's falsified.
                      Savior? Blindly believing is what you are doing. Your lack of understanding of his time is your downfall.

                    2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Brenda, Very well stated.

                  5. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    SSSSSSSSSSSnore!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                    1. Cagsil profile image81
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I see you're out blowing smoke yet again. This time, you're drawing attention to yourself and not making yourself look all that good either. Then again, nothing new. lol

                      Stay asleep. You would be doing all the rest of the planet a favor. hmm

              2. 0
                SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                But He would have died.  Jesus never committed a crime.  The San Hedrin trumped up charges against Him.  What Jesus said was always true. 

                In the end, even the spear in the side could not take His life.  His last words on the cross were, "Father, into thy hands I commend me spirit."  Then He gave up the ghost.

                1. Cagsil profile image81
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Blasphemy isn't a trumped up charge. Please give me a break. Blasphemy was against the law and Jesus openly admitted he was god, which defied all other teachings. So, no trumped up charge, but nice try.
                  Again, another person who lack understanding of the language of Jesus' time. And on top of it, you're using the Bible as a basis and my comments previously state that it's incorrect.

                  1. 0
                    SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I think you should go and look in a mirror to find the one who is in error. 

                    The saddest part is that you have heard the voice of God before and yet you refused to listen. 

                    It is blasphemy to claim that you are God if you are not God to start with.  If God says He is God, it is truth. 

                    Jesus did things for people that were undeserving to recieve anything from Him.  He healed them of sicknesses that no doctor could heal then or can even heal now. 

                    He calls out to you even as I type this.  Why do you keep refusing?

                    1. Cagsil profile image81
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You know, I put up with you demeaning my life's work and I've had my fill with it. It's not me who is in error.
                      You're ridiculous.
                      Actually, Jesus said "Ye are ALL gods". So, you saying this proves you wrong. Go back to school.
                      Conjecture and misinformation. Be proud of yourself. Your lack of understanding language and human development is your downfall.
                      It's not a refusal, but you're too blind and/or choose ignorance over knowledge.

                    2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      SirDent, Yes indeed. A discussion with Cagsil will never end. Some just need to have the last word.

          2. independentwriter profile image59
            independentwriterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I just wanted to point out that he was executed for treason.  He claimed, "He was king of the Jews."  Roman soldiers even placed a sign above him as he was dying in an attempt to mock him!  Caesar was already ruling Rome and Israel was declared a Roman colony.  It was the only way they could get murder charges at that time.  Rome would not get involved in local religious business.  The "religious" people of the day couldn't execute him for blasphemy.  So they trumped up the charges of treason, which would get the death penalty of hanging on a cross.

            1. Cagsil profile image81
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Interesting you say that. hmm Sounds like, yet another misinterpretation of events.


              Edit: Jesus wasn't of nobility and had he stated such, it would be a lie.

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        He never claimed to be God in open court nor behind closed doors.

        1. thebrucebeat profile image59
          thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You're right about open court, but there is no evidence to determine what he said behind closed doors.  Some scholars believe that the reason Judas was paid for information was that he told the Sadduces that Christ HAD claimed divinity behind closed doors, that he had claimed to be King of the Jews.  That is where Pilate got the term, because Christ is never called that elsewhere in scripture.  Judas telling them where Christ could be found was nothing they couldn't find out on there own.  It would have been easy enough to follow him.  But what Christ said to his inner circle was very intimate information, and it could have given them the reason to charge Christ with blasphemy.
          It's an interesting hypothesis.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            _____________________
            He claimed only to be the Son of God.

            13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? …..

            15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

            16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God

            17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

            1. thebrucebeat profile image59
              thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Your position assumes that all that was discussed "behind closed doors" is recorded and available to you.
              Fairly large leap of faith, don't you think?

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No, I can show you many verses that support this.

                If he said to Peter, I am the Son of God, and to others, I am God..That would make him a liar.

                1. thebrucebeat profile image59
                  thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Christ being seen as a liar is totally dependent on your interpretation of "Son of God" and Christ saying God is in him as meaning they are distinct.  I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I have many difficulties with Paul also.  I just don't believe I am in possession of the ultimate truth.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    ____________
                    I don't claim to know everything either because God is too deep to know everything about him, but when I am shown something I know it and trust it.
                    The Scriptures are full of allegories, euphemisms, metaphors, and parables.
                    When we know this we understand more.
                    The Hebrews never use abstract words, but relate everything to something physical that can be known with the five senses.

                    Matthew 13:10-17

                    10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                    11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

                    13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand


                    15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
                    16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
                    17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Even in prayer, he identified himself as the son.

                John 17

                1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

                1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  and now we are the sons of God.
                  All males birthed of a human being are sons.... Jesus our example in all ways, points to his humanity and deity. God in the flesh... what's God supposed to say?
                  These words spake jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said Me, the hours is come, glorify me, that I also may glorify thee.

                  Christ would have been so dead from the get go that his ministry would never have started.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Your ridiculous beliefs boggle my mind.
                    Was your Christ schizophrenic.
                    Why would God go through all that? To impress you?

                    If he would do all those things, why not just forgive you and make it right?

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      He did forgive me. When i asked him to and everything is alright.
                      This is called salvation. It makes me a saved and born again Christian.

                      Go through all what?
                      take a deep breath, try again.

                    2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      no he wasnt schizophrenic
                      Matthew 9:4   And Jesus knowing their THOUGHTS said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
                      Mark 2:8   And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
                      John 1:48   Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW thee.
                      God reads the hearts and sees where he is not.

            2. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              John 17:5:

              Jesus said:

              "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."



              John 14: 7:

              "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."



              John 14: 9:

              "Jesus saith unto him, 'have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?   he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;  and how sayest thou then, show us the Father?'"



              There are more passages too.
              Some you might want to read are John 16: 25-30.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Anything you've read, I've probably more times than you.
                I can post many verses that disprove this

                1. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Verses that disprove those verses?
                  Not so.
                  Nothing makes Jesus a liar.   Your inability to interpret the Bible is the problem.
                  How is it, Philip...errrr Deborah.....that you cannot see this, since you've read it so many times, as you say?

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    If Jesus lied, he would be a liar. He didn't lie.
                    No I can show you many verses that disprove your trinity doctrine.

                    Those few verses you posted dosen't say what you think they do. It's your interpretation that's the problem

                    And who is Phillip? I have one Avatar..me.

                    1. 0
                      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Oh dear, you didn't even read those passages I posted, did you?
                      I had assumed you at least have read them before in the Bible, from what you said!   Jesus was talking to Philip in that one verse I posted above.   And you act like Philip as you deny the words of Christ where He says He is God.   
                      ..to the Jews a stumblingblock...

                      The One you seem to seek has come and gone, yet remains here in the hearts and souls of those who are willing to Believe, Deborah.   Since I know, from seeing your posts before, you are unwilling to believe Paul's words, I thought at least you'd take John's into account.  He flat-out confirmed Jesus's declaration in the first Chapter he wrote.   I think that's it----you're not unable, you're simply unwilling.

        2. 68
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with this statement about Jesus; he was neither a god nor a son of god in literal terms.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Luke 1:35   And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

            pretty clear
            This makes God, the father

            1. Greek One profile image81
              Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Paar only believes the parts of the Bible that agree with his own views...

              the rest was written by sinful scribes, sinful Paul, or sinful John, George or Ringo

    5. 62
      sunny5555posted 5 years ago

      Brenda you are correct, Jesus went off and prayed to his Father three diff. times not wanting to drink from the cup, but Jesus was left with no choice.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I...think He had a choice.  But He believed the promise of God, that this life isn't the end of all things.  And since He was and is God, but in a human body and with human free will, that allowed Him to look at everything from an eternal perspective.  We believers now have that same ability, that same foresight that He so humbly exampled for us.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If we consider the cup to be his flesh, Jesus would not have prayed that way because that would be against the will of God. Jesus was heading for the cross and that was Gods plan.
          When jesus prayed this prayer he was asking that God NOT put His wrath upon him. At this point God put his hands on jesus and pronounced the sins of the world over him, just as the sacrifices were treated. The priest would put his hands on the animal, proclaim the sins and then sacrifice the animal - jewish tradition, the pattern given by God.
          This was jesus' loneliest time since God had removed His Holy Ghost and jesus was the most human of all his earthly walk. Notice that he called God, God instead of father.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The cup meant his portion, his lot in life.
            He was human and he dreaded it.

            You believe and say some of the strangest things.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You deny that Yeshua is actually God Himself come in the flesh?

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                _____________
                I believe that God is come in the flesh through the Holy Ghost (Yahshua said the Father in me)

                But it was not saying that God turned into flesh and became Yahshua's body.

                No he is not God.

            2. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So you believe that jesus prayed against the will of the father in respect to his lot in life? There is no biblical cup that represents 'lot in life'.
              How do you define father in me?
              It is as i said, God came down wrapped himself in flesh (was born of a human female). There are many examples of people being alive without Gods spirit in them, many examples, but the fact that the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (Colossians 2:9) was in jesus christ, says jesus was God in the flesh.
              Jesus is fully God.
              So you think God only put a little of himself in jesus for this very super important mission?

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ______________
                Yes, and Yahshua proves that in his next words.
                Which was

                "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"

                Matthew 26:39
                And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

                Matthew 26:42
                He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  fine, if that's how you interpret it. 
                  Can i buy a Jupiter trinket so i can be wealthy?

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    _________________
                    You're not my brother, so Mr. Yochanan, please tell me this:
                    If a man is a Christian and he meets a woman he knows is married, is it OK for that man to write her a sexual note? or is it a sin.

                    Is it OK to sin?

                    1. Greek One profile image81
                      Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      my wife says 'no' on that one

                  2. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    __________
                    Why don't you read about the trinkets in the bible.
                    At least I don't do the things you do.

                    1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      alrighty then.... enlighten me about these trinkets please.

                      What i see is:
                      -idols were eliminated. (for obvious reasons)
                      -enchanted items were not to be used. (for obvious reasons)
                      This is a form of sorcery and witchcraft that God said 'suffer these not to live'.

    6. 62
      sunny5555posted 5 years ago

      Yes, after the third time of praying to his Father, Jesus was looking at it from an eternal persective. I agree.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus always had an eternal perspective. Many of his teachings are about the eternal perspective. There was never a moment when jesus did not (being God) have an eternal perspective

    7. mistyhorizon2003 profile image89
      mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago

      Interesting article on Bible mistranslations with quotes for anyone interested:

      http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

    8. 62
      sunny5555posted 5 years ago

      My mother asks allot of questions, so I made sure many years ago when I was to study the bible I went and bought multiple diff. bibles, bible dic., almanac's, handbooks, and encyclodia's, continue to study them all, also including,English, Hebrew, and Greek translations. It is easy for me to read any bible,but to break down the words, and every sentence and know what it truly means, that is a diff. story.

    9. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago

      I personally believe self-love is selfishness.  Self-respect is a different matter.   I know some people who love themselves so much that they cannot love anyone else.

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Brenda, you don't even realize you just went against Jesus' teachings. He said you are to LOVE SELF and Others.

        Self love cannot be selfishness.

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Okay, let's see if you're right.
          Point me to Scripture where Jesus said to love one's self.
          Maybe we can continue discussing then.

          1. thebrucebeat profile image59
            thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "Love your neighbor as yourself".  Can't love him if you don't love you, that seems to say.
            not taking sides.  just sayin' it's in there.

            1. thebrucebeat profile image59
              thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              besides, self love is so much fun!

            2. Cagsil profile image81
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you Bruce. smile

            3. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Is that the jist of what you and Cagsil get from that passage?
              Actually, those passages, since the Bible does say it several times.

              I don't see it that way at all.  It's not a commandment to love one's self.  The Lord simply knows that humans are gonna love themselves.  We're centered on ourselves usually; it's part of being human.   The emphasis is on (as it should be) loving others!  It doesn't say you have to love yourself in order to love others.

              1. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Brenda, it is common knowledge that if you don't love yourself, then you cannot possibly love anyone else.

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I wish it was common knowledge that was more common. smile

                  1. Cagsil profile image81
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No sh!t, right. hmm

                2. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm not convinced of that.
                  You got anymore Scriptures for it?

                  1. Cagsil profile image81
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Brenda, if you cannot love yourself, then you cannot love others. I'm sorry, that's a fact. If you have no love for yourself, then your actions towards others will be without love. No scripture needed to support that fact.

                    1. 0
                      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Oh, but we were using the Scriptures to clarify our stances.  Remember?  You said I was going against the commandments of God.  You say you know a lot of the Bible.  Help me to understand why I must love myself first, before I love God or love my neighbor.
                      Tell me where to find confirmation of your view.

    10. thebrucebeat profile image59
      thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago

      seekeroftruth,
      i suggest a name change, as there is simply no need to seek what you believe you have already found.  that would be silly, wouldn't it?
      people believe what they like and like what they believe, and truth has very little to do with it for the vast majority.
      so there is that.  at least you are part of the majority.

    11. 0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago

      @ Cags

      Actually you made it about you when you stated that it was YOUR life's work.

      The Bible is all I need.  I don't need any of your other books that you used to come to your conclusions.

      I wonder why you would use books other than the Bible to discredit the Bible anyway.  What agenda were behind the writing of those other books?

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's about knowledge gained from that work. Not me, as a person.
        Then, don't bother with the conversation. The Bible is inaccurate, distorted and passes along misinformation without all the other relevant information.
        The rulers at the time needed to protect their "religious" position. Which is why you need all the other books and information, so you can reveal the actions taken at the time.

      2. thebrucebeat profile image59
        thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you should ask what agenda was the bible written under, too.
        knowledge is not the enemy.  knowing is the enemy.

        1. 0
          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The agenda was to redeem man back to his former glory.

        2. aka-dj profile image80
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Knowing, as far as knowing God, is definitely NOT the enemy.
          It's a total contradiction.
          Any knowledge gained that either separates, distances or keep one from Him, is the real enemy.

          Nowhere in the Bible is it suggested, or condoned, that one finds salvation through growing in knowledge! (other than "knowledge of Him").
          Salvation never was,nor will it ever be, gained by the power of the mind, nor will it be attained by any intellect.

          The Jews sought a sign, the Greeks sought wisdom and philosophy, yet neither was granted, and neither found the Saviour that way.
          Now, if you don't want/need a saviour, then by all means keep learning. The more the better! After all, this will be all you can live by.

          1. thebrucebeat profile image59
            thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Are we not to love god with all our mind?
            Why do you take pride in leaving it on the sidelines?

            I will keep learning, thanks.

            1. aka-dj profile image80
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I see you either misunderstood what I wrote, or didn't read it. I am not against learning or knowledge. I said you will not be saved by your intellect.

              So far, you are not saved (by your own  admission), despite all your study.

              You seen to be guilty of analysis paralysis.

              Submit your heart to Him, your mind will catch up.

              Salvation is by faith. NOT knowledge, or intellect.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ____________

                Salvation comes through doing the will of God. Yahshua never taught you are saved by faith.
                Paul is the only one who said that.


                Yahshua taught to keep THE commandments and endure till the end. Yes, there is some work involved

                Matthew 19:17
                17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

                Matthew 23:23
                Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

                Paul said we are saved by Grace through faith. You will not find anyone else in the scriptures claiming this.

                Ephesians 2:8
                For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

                Paul said he had another doctrine. Absolutely nothing to do except believe. Paul is the only one that taught we are saved without works

                2 Timothy 2
                8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: (Paul)

                James, knowing what Paul taught, contradicts him
                James Said


                James 2:14
                What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

                James 2:17, 21, 22
                17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

                James 2:24,26
                24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.. 26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
                Genesis 26:5

                Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

                1. aka-dj profile image80
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you Deborah for your clarification.

                  I agree with us having to do "works of faith", but salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned, nor deserved. I would have thought you understood that. And further still, I would expect you to ask me where I stood regarding this whole issue, before you so boldly set out to put me straight.

                  If you atribute (the) salvation by faith to Paul alone, and it (seemingly) contradicts all the scriptures you quoted, then what part of Paul's teaching do we keep, and what part do we throw out? If we do this with Paul's writings, then which other parts of the Bible do we treat likewise?

                  As for the quote from James, it is not saying that we are NOT saved by faith alone, nor is it saying that we are save by works of the law. What it actually says is that the two go hand in hand. They are both dead without each other! (IE. if those who practice the law, break even one part of it, are guilty of the whole law. Those on the other extreme who just say they believe in Jesus, and then "live like the devil" are also no more justified than the first!).
                  So, we are saved by faith (no need to make bold), which (salvation) is not reward for any works, and then, we do works of righteousness, including keeping His commandments, as you said. Therefore we have faith, AND works, by which we are justified as His children.

                  It seems to me that we approve of those things that we understand, or fit our understanding and reject, or denigrate those which we don't. That's a dangerous thing to do, and is probably the greatest cause for division within the Body of Christ today.

                  You need not have boldened the parts you did. They are just as easily understood without.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    ___________________
                    I didn't post this to set you straight.
                    If you felt that way it came from inside you.
                    I did it because scripture tells us if we are aware of false prophets we are to tell people.
                    I underline things I want people (not just you) to notice. Not to prove you wrong.

                    James DID say we are not saved by faith alone. I agree it takes both and more
                    Yahshua said it takes the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: Faith last.

                    Paul hated Christ and never learned from him

                    If something contradicts what the word (OLD Testament and Yahshua says) it is not to be followed. Paul's writing weren't meant to be a part of the Bible none of it. Constantine (a sun worshiper) included it.

                    Believe the way you want, it's between you and God.
                    I won't reply to your posts again since you don't like the way I express myself. I never want to offend. I don't even know you and vice versa


                    Someone who wants truth is open to hear others.
                    I use to be in the Christian church and I know what is believed and I have examined it closely and rejected it.

                    Have a great night

                    1. aka-dj profile image80
                      aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      That's cool Deborah.
                      It looked like you were making a case against faith.

                      I'm glad we got that sorted out!

                      In fact, I believe the original intent of hubpages founders was exactly this kind of discussion. I prefer this over barrages from atheists and all others.

                      smile

                    2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Paul hated christ.... lol

                      thats ridiculous.
                      you should open a thread brenda and lets all discuss that point to its fullest

              2. thebrucebeat profile image59
                thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You concede my point then.  You find knowledge to be the enemy.  I find that sad from my point of view, but you have the right to reject the advances in human achievement over the last three hundred years.  You'll be left behind, but that's a choice.  In the meantime, you will use the spoils of man's amazing intellectual achievements every moment of every day.  You will use electronics, drive cars, take medicines and so on, all thanks to the wonderous achievements of men's minds, and only choose to reject the achievements of scholars when they inconvenience you in regards to cherished beliefs you can not defend with the same kind of certainty.
                Let me summarize your point of view.
                Smart people suck.

                1. aka-dj profile image80
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I am flabbergasted!!!!
                  You truly can't read! Perhaps you deliberately don't understand what you are reading.
                  I took you for an above average intelligent guy.

                  For the third and final time!
                  I am NOT against learning, or knowledge!

                  However, to put it into (the original) context, if knowledge and learning takes you away from God, THEN, it becomes the enemy (of your soul).
                  Jesus' own words..."what does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but looses his own soul?"

                  To answer another of your (mis)quotes, we are not told to love God with our mind (alone). We are told (commanded, actually) to love the Lord with ALL our hearts, soul, mind and strength. (emphasis mine)

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Haha. You should be expecting it...

                    1. aka-dj profile image80
                      aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I think I read on one of his hubs that he's a journalist. Has given lectures to thousands, yet can't read my post in context! hmm
                      What else am I to think?

                      I certainly didn't expect that. lol

                  2. Beelzedad profile image61
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    There is no knowledge or learning one can gain from believing in the invisible, hence you are against learning and knowledge of that which is visible; reality. Hence, learning anything about reality is an enemy to be avoided. smile

                    1. aka-dj profile image80
                      aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You can believe that if you like.
                      I'm always learning new things about the visible AND the invisible.

                      Just because I believe in Jesus, does not prevent me from learning.
                      I just choose what I let in a lot more carefully .

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Many Jews followed him, so where do you get your info.
            The Jews were the first to follow him. It was a long time before any Gentiles did.
            Scripture speaks many times of the mind and knowledge
            According to scripture, wisdom and knowledge are the best attributes

            Study

    12. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Thanks The Bruce.Your opinion is noted and respected.

    13. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      cags, you directly contradict yourself. Why would the religious leaders that put Jesus to death distort the works of the Bible to enhance his life? Maybe you speak in circles from reading too much literature.

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's not about enhancing his life, but is about controlling people in general.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Bull fluff.
          The bible was written by, oh.. jesus disciples and before that Gods chosen people, moses and the prophets. But you just wanna talk new testament.

          written by jesus disciples. Translated by linguists, finish copy by bishops. The book were so altered that the roman catholics did not want anybody to own their own copy. Until luther read the bible and posted his famous papers to the vatican door nobody was allowed to read the documents that you claim were written to control the masses. hmmm. Quite the point you overlooked.
          And then when people became aware of the bibles contents, different denominations began. So much for control.
          Today do you still say that religion is used to control the masses or does your comment pertain to 40 or so decades ago?

    14. Cagsil profile image81
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago

      No Brenda, I've already explained that scripture was manipulated and out of context for the most part, due to language's inability to have available words.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So....all of those several passages that state the part about loving our neighbor were ... manipulated and out of context?
        Highly unlikely.   A concept that's that important would've been, in one of the Books/Chapters, more firmly spelled out, would've come right out and said "Thou must love thyself" or something similar, I'm pretty sure.

        There is one that adds more to it, but it's telling us to Love God, not ourselves!

        Luke 10: 27:

        "And he answering said, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.'"

        In that one, Loving God definitely comes first!

        I can't find anywhere that tells me to love myself!  I'm in quite a quandry here!   I do hope some really well-educated, schooled, person, maybe a Harvard grad or something, will come by and enlighten me on the Scripture's commandments about how I should love myself first before I can love anyone else....wink

        1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
          DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Not to poke the bear...But you have shown where you are to love yourself....


          -me (thy neighbor as THYSELF)

          -me  How can you love your neighbor like yourself...If you don't love yourself? If you don't love yourself...you are not going to love someone else...



          It is one of those things of, you cannot share what you yourself do not possess...

          Just my thoughts...

          1. Cagsil profile image81
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you yet again DS. wink

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              smile

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          _____________________________________
          That is just common sense.

          You are told to love your neighbor as yourself. So, if you hate yourself than you hate your neighbor which breaks the commandment.

          God did not say to love your neighbor more than you love yourself.

          If you can't understand this, no wonder you believe the way you do.

      2. aka-dj profile image80
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The NT Greek was at least as sophisticated (and more so, imo) as English. It was extremely clear what was written is what was meant. I think we have more trouble today describing things than they did then.
        One often used example is the word LOVE (seemingly important in this thread). In the Greek, they had four words for different applications, as appropriate to the message. We have, umm...ONE!

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But I have no problem understanding the difference between Godly Love and human love and romantic love, etc.
          The context of Bible passages make those clear, even if the word "love" is used for all of them.

          1. aka-dj profile image80
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't doubt it, Brenda.
            My post was for Cagsil, seeing as his argument stands on mistranslations etc.

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I see, I think.
              ha.

        2. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nice post aka-dj
          cagsils information is truly for those who know nothing, those are his only targets, easy prey for such ridiculous statements as he comes up with. Clearly his interpretations are his and his alone. I think his imagination would best be used in childrens literature. Obviously he has never heard of the interlinear both hebrew and greek and clearly has never opened a strongs concordance.

    15. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago

      Let's see....

      "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

      No, that's not it.
      That's a desire to BE loved, a basic human need.....plus a command to Love others.

      Drat it!  Where are those Scriptures??

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Psychology and the understanding of psychosis was not known to the primitive people of the bronze age Brenda, they did not understand anything of that nature.
        A lot like many of today's religionists who don't understand it either. smile

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, earnestshub, but I'm finding it hard to take what you say seriously, after seeing that one thread you posted recently;  I'm afraid you might ask me in the middle of a serious discussion to call you earnestine or something.....and that's not on my agenda.  haha

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That was called humor Brenda, I know Australian humor is a bit different, and that's the best I could do. smile

        2. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How do you know what they understood. There are 4 words describing love.
          we have one. It seems to me that a society that has 4 words describing one thing has the definitions thing goin on.
          As for love to another person.. or being nice... or treating people fairly. Are you earnest saying that they did NOT understand this concept? Or is this your special type of humor again?

          1. Beelzedad profile image61
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, how does he know? lol

            1. brotheryochanan profile image59
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              lol

    16. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      For those who took offense at this post, I did not wish to elevate myself or any other believer in Christ as being above all others.
      My only intent was to defend the position of the believer.I wish to state that Jesus said He was the way to eternal life and that there was no other way but through Him.He made that statement,not me.That is the foundation of our belief.He said He was God and we believe He was...period.

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        OP is copied below.



        How can you say your intent was defending the position of the believer when you said "We only can hope for everyone else"?

        That was an offensive statement as opposed to defensive. You placed yourself above "everyone else" in comparison to "Those of us that believe"

        Coupled with that, you decided to shirk responsibility for your OP by claiming that your god made the statement, not you. All that evidence being entirely contrary to your intent and of defending the position of the believer.

        Can you not see how all of that is unethical behavior supported with atrocious behavior?  smile

      2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seeker, Excellent post. smile

      3. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ___________________
        Actually it is you saying that. not Yahshua.
        Every statement every word he spoke, he was speaking of God. He was not speaking of Himself.
        Why is this so hard to see?

        John 12:49
        For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

        John 7:17
        If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

        John 8:28
        Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

        John 14:10
        Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

        What is it about these statements the Christians cannot understand?

    17. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      And again to address the constant accusation of indoctrination,all humans have the ability to believe and reason.Individuals evaluate the truths as they see them and make their choices.No brain washing.Just simple reasoning.We follow what we see as truth, the same as you all do.We are no more manipulated than any of you are.

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Untrue.

    18. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Cags, you must be several hundred years old to have gained so much more knowledge and wisdom than the average person.I thought only God had those attributes.Thank you for setting the rest of us ignorgant,unlearned believers straight.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image85
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seeker...I can't answer for all...But for me...I don't think you( or anyone) are (is) ignorant or unlearned...I simply wonder if you are getting the full benefits from your beliefs and what is written in the bible...If you feel that you are...then that is great...Some of us, are only pointing out things in a different light, that may or may not allow you to see something differently than you previous thought. And it could be consider a good or bad view/light depending on your personal beliefs.

    19. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Well thank you D.S. I do appreciate your much more mellow tone and I will seek as is my namesake to gain and understand others views and as certainly none of us have all the answers.We can surely stand to be a little more patient and kind, so that we may be enriched by our fellow human being.

    20. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

      No, he was not executed for any crime. The Priests were afraid of him and they asked many to falsely accuse him.

    21. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago

      Being in the will of God  AND   reading about what the will of God IS and trying to get there....   Is two different things

         Both are good.  But different.

      reading about what the will of God is ...  then trying to do it ....   beating ourselves up cause we can not do what we think it is !  is not the will of God.

         God doesn't want to sit on the end of our noses, blocking our vision of all that is in this life to see and experience.

        Enjoying life is not evil,  but is a bad thing when we steel someone elses joy in order to over indulge ourselves..

         Something like that anyway.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And who did you direct this to?

        1. Jerami profile image77
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Any one who cared to hear  "Just another opinion"

            I often speak to the wind   ....  for anyone to hear.

            If no one hears or agrees ?    OH Well    that is the way that it goes.


             No! it had no barbs intended for you or anyone else.

             I apologize for not being more clear.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            _____________
            Jerami, I just asked. No problem.
            If I offended you I'm sorry.

            1. Jerami profile image77
              Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Not to worry    when it comes to being offended ....
              I got aligator skin ....    got it the hard way.

                  but under the surface ....   soft as a babys butt

    22. independentwriter profile image59
      independentwriterposted 5 years ago

      Here is a question for everyone to consider, if the bible is so full of inaccuracies, half-truth, and distortions, then why is the bible one of the only books that has survived thousands of years?

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Religious indoctrination. Once indoctrinated into the belief that the bible is the true word of god, one will keep the book alive their whole lives and pass the beliefs down to their children, and their children and so on... over generations, centuries. smile

        1. independentwriter profile image59
          independentwriterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That is one possibility.  I think that if Christianity was a farce, I think it would have died out a long time ago.  Historically, I don't think that it would have made it past the first century.  Nero and many of the other Roman leaders were persecuting Christians and killing them.  I don't know of anyone who would die for a lie.

          1. Beelzedad profile image61
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Religions don't die out unless the cycle of indoctrination is broken. As well, Christianity has a requirement for evangelism.



            Possibly, but many will kill and die if they have been indoctrinated into believing a lie is an absolute truth. smile

    23. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 5 years ago

      Where is "Seeker" in all this?
      I wanna know what this is all about.
      He/she has to clarify the "title" for me.
      I can't figure out what hubbers are responding too.
      "Faithful to our beliefs" is so vague.
      Seeker, where art thou!
      Qwark

    24. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Qwark, I have been taking care of personal matters.Sorry to being away without much imput.In being faithful to our beliefs,those of us that believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of mankind truly believe that principle.We believe He was God in the flesh.We believe He led a sinless life.We believe He was sent from God the Father to die for the sins of the world.We believe He gave Himself freely,out of love,which by the way is all He taught.To love God first,which He cofessed He was equal with,to love our neighbor and we all fall short on that,as we would love ourselves.As I stated before, we are not indoctrinated,but we have had a personal experience with God and we are able to communicate with Him through prayer and fellowship of His Holy Spirit.Thousands have died throughout the ages because of this belief and maybe one day some of us believers will.Many still do in the world today.Thousands will not march to death for something they do not know is true.

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        1. 61
          SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I expected such beelzedad. Why don`t you end your name with bub? It suits better.

          1. Beelzedad profile image61
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Because, I AM his dad. smile

            1. 61
              SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              There is only one I AM and you are not Him.But one day you will meet Him.

      2. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        TY Seeker:
        Ok.
        So when you are faithful to your beliefs, you are referring to your beliefs in an imagined god thing.
        I see.
        I also asked if English is your native language. Is it?
        May I ask how much "formal" education you've had? Your answer may influence my response. TY
        Qwark

        1. 61
          SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes,English is my primary language and ,I have an associates degree in applied science.

          1. qwark profile image61
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            TY Seeker:
            Yes, your answer does affect my response to you in ref to the title of this thread: "Faithful To Our Beliefs."
            Concerns:
            1. You refer to yourself as a "Seeker of truths."
            Your native language is English so I can assume that as a 2 yr college man you have an adequate command of the language and of vocabulary.
            The English definition of "truth" is: "Reality; actuality." How can you relate what you "imagine" to be: this "god thing" that you believe in, to the definition of "truth" as it relates to your hub name?

            2."Faith."
            There are 2 connotations relating to the definition of that word: One connotation is related to "faith" based upon empirical proof. Ex: I have "faith" that the sun will rise from the East and set in the West.
            The other is is "religious faith" which has its foundation in the definition of "hope." Hope, defined is: "To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment."
            Why would you guide your life on that which you can only hope for?
            Pls try to respond to these concerns in other than "opinion."
            If you cannot do this, what reason would there be for your faith in your beliefs to be considered to be "credible" or based upon "truths," by another educated man?
            If you can offer only "opinion," based upon "hope," as a response, you have satisfied my need to understand you.
            There will be no more questions from me.
            TY again.
            Qwark

      3. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        But have had no compunction in marching non believers to their deaths!
        Your religion is responsible for death not life.

      4. thebrucebeat profile image59
        thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You're right that people will not march to their death for something they don't know is true, but people have marched to their death for all kinds of disparate ideas, beliefs and faiths.  By your reckoning, they are all correct, so without realizing it you are making the case for all faiths being true.  People have died for Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Krishna, and so on.  They have died for capitalism and socialism, democracy and fascism.  People have willingly died for all kinds of irreconcialable concepts.
        If this is evidence that their faith is genuine, you are a defender of universalism. 
        Perhaps you are correct, or perhaps you are the one who is deceived.  Any ideas as to how you would know?

    25. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Qwark, you ask me if I could only offer you an opinion based on hope. I can offer you an emperical opinion based upon your belief in truth.
        I went to your hubsite and by no means concider you a misfit.I think , because of your use of words,your quest for answers,your apparent and abvious intellect, you,like I, am a seeker.
         Those of us beyond the norm generally seek. I have always sought for the answers beyond.Do I think this is all there is,No?
          Do I believe in other worlds and civilizations,Yes? Do I think that the whole cosmos developed from nothing,No? Do I wonder my purpose,Yes?
         Qwark, our definitions of life and reality are based upon our reasoning.Based upon our miniscule thoughts of who we are and how we all got here. Maybe we`re only a grain of sand in the ocean.Could be so.
          Many base beliefs on empirical proofs.
         Qwark, there are no difinitive answers that one can see or touch.We all base our lives on what percieve as truth.
          You ask me ,do I guide my life in an unseen direction of hope in a God? Yes I do. Do you not invest your retirement money in hopes of a windfall,yes you do?
           Through a life of research I have seen that nothing just happens to happen.Everything has to have provocation and initiation. Can I prove such to you,No? But according to the beliefs and definitions of man and I quote"Emperical evidence is evidence of consequences that are seen or felt by the senses. Also knowledge in philosophy which adheres to the principle that knowledge comes from experience specifically using the senses.This is the human interpretation of emperical and I can assuredly tell you I have sensed and continue to sense the presence of God Who is always then, now, and forever Almighty. I probably dissapointed you in my response but please do write again.I would love to confer with you.

      1. 61
        SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wherefore art thou Qwark? Wouldest thou be indisposed? Awaiting to correspond.TY. S.O.T.

        1. qwark profile image61
          qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hello Seeker:

          Sorry about the lag in time here for a response.

          I was not notified that you had responded.

          "Qwark, you ask me if I could only offer you an opinion based on hope. I can offer you an emperical opinion based upon your belief in truth.

          Seeker, I didn't ask for an "opinion."  I asked for a response other than opinion based on "hope" alone.
           
          As a response, you gave me what I didn't want and have satisfied my need to understand you.

          You offered EXACTLY what I expected and I appreciate that.

          I understand PERFECTLY where you are coming from and what you have to offer in response.

          You are a believer in that which can only be imagined and, simply, exists as an abstract concept.

          I have nothing more to ponder in ref. to the basis for your forum title: "Faithful To Our Beliefs."

          You answered it for me completely and concisely.

          Thank you.

          Qwark

          1. aka-dj profile image80
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What evidence do you seek?
            It seems ( God, if He exists, according to you) MUST satisfy your very narrow criteria.
            I would suggest asking Him directly, rather than wasting time & effort with (us) believers. It,s obvious anything and everything we say can so easily be dismissed as mere opinion.
            TY
            DJ.

            1. qwark profile image61
              qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Aka:
              I've never asked for evidence!
              How did you come up with that impression?
              Evidence of what?
              Opinion based upon hope alone doesn't interest me. It is purposeless chat.
              Thanks for the response.
              Qwark

          2. 61
            SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Please reply again, as I would love to speak with you on a personal basis.I do not meet many like you.

            1. qwark profile image61
              qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Seeker, TY for the invite, but I'm quite satisfied with the result of our short chat.

              There is nothing else to discuss.

              At least nothing that interests me.

              Enjoy life!

              Qwark

              1. 61
                SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Same to you friend.I hope you find your answers as I have.Bless you in your endeavors.

                1. qwark profile image61
                  qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Seeker:
                  TY  smile:
                  Again you misinterpret my message and intent.
                  I NEVER ask for "proofs."
                  To ask for "proofs" in ref to your beliefs would be folly.
                  To discuss that which exists only in the imagination of infant man, with the intent of making a credible point, would be an exercise in futility.
                  Nothing can be gained.
                  Qwark

                  1. 61
                    SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So clarify my friend, what may I answer for you that you apparently  feel that you already know or have pre-suppositioned?  And just for the sake of clearing the slate,would you care to state your educational qualifications and life long employment status? Space,science,Nasa...,my former employer.Would you care to enlighten me or remain disdainful,I suppose of my great lacking of your impeccable qualifications. As you may detect,I have felt slighted by your response. Hope to hear a reasonable response. Ty

                    1. qwark profile image61
                      qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Seeker:
                      No clarification necessary.
                      My formal education exceeds yours by many yrs and Degrees.
                      I'm sorry you feel slighted.
                      You have satisfied my curiosity. 
                      Nothing more need be considered.
                      I think this response is quite reasonable.
                      Have a happy, safe holiday...smile:
                      Goodnight.
                      Qwark

            2. 61
              SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Qwark, I apparently mis -interpreted your answer. I did not ask for a response on hope,you did. My response is on your so called empirical belief that is supposed to enrich the world . I offered you your belief in accordance with the beliefs of mankind.I gave you solid proof according to the beliefs of man kind that there is or could possibly be a God.

    26. 0
      Uirikposted 5 years ago

      Guess what? There is actually nothing to be saved from?

    27. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago

      Druid Dude wrote:
      What makes you think the goatherders were hateful?
      = - = -

      getitrite wrote
      Maybe they were sentencing, gays, fornicators, and people who worked on the sabbath to death, out of pure LOVE.

      = - = -

        Me thinks ...  that a FEW of them goat herders might have wanted to get rid of their neighbor and used "THE  LAW" to do it with.  Yep a FEW of them goat herders didn't quite understand what  "The Law" was really supposed to be about.
      They were hateful.
      ==========================================
      =========================================


      Druid Dude wrote:
      Remember, Alexander wasn't exactly conquering w/ kindness. Rome subjugated all they come in contact with. They didn't do it w/ candy. This can be said of any civilization. Our own time has been bloody with it's share of atrocities. That fact al;one should make you feel like the pot calling the kettle black.
      = - = -
      getitrite wrote 
      No I don't feel like the pot calling the kettle black, but I do feel like this has nothing to do with the point in question.

      = - = -

          ME thinks   ....Typical ziz zag  around a question.
        Of course the pot is calling the kettle black.

      ================================
      ===============================

          Some people focus ALL of their attention on the faults that they see out there in the world   and   all the time theirs own are unchecked.
           We have all found ourselves in that predicument. 
        Some of us get over it and some of us get confortable in our recliner thinking all too highly of themselves.

      1. getitrite profile image81
        getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jerami,

        I think you did not understand the exchange between druid dude and myself. 

        I can't see where the 'pot calling the kettle black' was relevant at all.  Could you show me how this would be relevant, since you stated that this is precisely what you see as well?

        Here is my original statement:

        Yeah, God is ultimately concerned about the sex lives of an insignificant primate.  This is nothing but the hang-ups from profoundly ignorant, and hateful,  goat herders.

        This is why I said druid was irrelevant, because he created a strawman, and responded to the strawman, then you came into the conversation, and responded to his strawman.

        Maybe you were just not focused.

    28. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      Hubpages can do without homophobia and hate speech.

      Are the religious going to prove that they will go along with this by not coming out straight away and clearly rejecting this doctrine.

      Or is this the most gutless group of believers I have seen in my life?

      Any of the religiously inclined who do not condemn the previous hateful homophobic nonsense should feel shame, deep shame for the intolerance and prejudice expressed here.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Any religious individual worth his/her salt (especially one who calls him/herself Christian) should immediately and passionately condemn the actions of both Westboro Baptist Church and everyone else who performs hateful actions or speaks hateful words to/about homosexuals.  Regardless of your personal interpretation of Scripture, John 3:16 is pretty clear about God loving THE WORLD - not just the straight people in it.

        Just my take on it.  And, the religious fundies who choose to disagree with me on that are sadly in the majority.  Doesn't make them bad (though their behavior certainly IS) but it does make them WRONG.

      2. 0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'd be happy to put my two cents worth in, but I don't know what post you're talking about.

        It is sad. By all indications Paul, himself, was a homosexual struggling to deal with it within the confines of his religion. His rants are so unbalanced as to wonder why he was even considered worthy of being taken seriously on the subject.

        Jesus never once broached the subject. I always assumed his silence on the issue meant it was not something he considered wrong.

        Ignorance is sad, but luckily the ignorant religious are little more than an embarrassing minority that is slowly dying out in this country. They know it. That's why they're screaming so loudly.

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Earnest was speaking in regard to an exchange of posts between between proudlib and brotheryocanan on page 15, jc.

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That's what I thought. I don't respond to brothryochanon much anymore. That's a hard hard stand that will never see the light of reason.

            1. proudlib profile image61
              proudlibposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I appreciate all of the wise comments concerning so-called "Christians."  And JC, thank you for responding so succinctly and proudly to our prolific vomiter of piety.  I was just thinking that it would be wise to ignore brotheryochanon.  I read his stuff and I am dizzy with the grammatical errors, misspellings, non sequiturs, malapropisms, "Acquisition" for "Inquisition", "volition" for "vehemence" (I think), and logic as twisted as his mind.  Sarah Palin couldn't do a better job of spewing nonsense, butchering the language and defying logic at the same time.

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                But can he speak in tongues? I still wanna see Pailin do that, maybe with Hinn and on stage. smile
                Or if elected she could talk in tongues to the UN. smile I'd pay to see either! lol
                I expected a bit more support from the religionists on JC's other thread. about abuse.

              2. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I don't normally respond to his posts anymore, however I found this exchange too disgusting not to comment on. We all judge others. It is human nature, but claiming divine rights to  condemn another human being is beyond anything I will ignore when the post is brought to light by another poster. Some, who cannot think a decent thought on their own, need to be corralled for their  own good.

        2. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks JC, I hoped you would ad to the discussion.
          I think the following is interesting, especially the last sentence in my case, as I know a hundred refutations of that bit. smile

          [A. Johnson et aI., Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1994) ch. 7]). In our quest to understand and embody scriptural holiness we must be evenhanded in our application of Scripture with the full conviction that the moral change Christ brings affects all people alike: “fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, those who practice homosexuality, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers” (1 Cor 6:9-10). These things we were, but baptism into Christ yields a cleansing and conversion through the power of the Spirit to live in holy obedience to God (1 Cor 6:11).

          By Brian J. Dodd, Ph.D., John Wesley Fellow and UM Elder in the California-Nevada Annual Conference.


          I can point to a lot of material about Paul's homosexuality, and even more that deny it.
          Lots of opinion out there, some of it is pretty well supported, some is not, but it was certainly noticed! Lots of smoke, so I reckon either he was very misunderstood or he was another Elton John.

          By the way, did you see the cute picture of Elton burping his baby? I think he will be a great dad. lol

          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm not sure I follow your comments. You can't find the words of Jesus, except in the gospels. Whatever comes after, in any of the books would be interpretation, not his words. Interpretation exists, even in the gospels; so I'd need proof he said it before I'd think less of him.

            And no, I didn't see the picture of Elton. I'm sure he will make a wonderful parent.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I probably rambled.
              I was indicating that others have opinions on the subject that agree with your conclusion that it is likely Paul was homosexual, and that the words of Christ were not condemning of homosexuality as in the OT.
              Elton cut the umbilical cord.

              smile

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well, glad I missed that picture then.

                Yes, there's a lot of speculation all the way around on pretty much everything in the Bible. That's one reason, even when I associated with christianity that I couldn't understand why anyone thought it was appropriate to use scriptures to be hateful to any group. Even if they thought God wrote the Bible, how in the world could they know for sure that they were doing the right thing? The whole thing is contradictory on so many points.

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I would have been just as keen as you to miss a picture like that, but fortunately it was just told in an interview. lol

                  Like you I think it would not take much to work out what NOT to say or know what NOT to insist on being taken literally to avoid the hate speeches. smile

              2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                please to show evidence that paul was a homosexual

      3. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I would agree with Ya on this statement   BUT  ....

          If I started condeming "Those" people ?  I might get on a roll and not be able to stop it ....   Ssoooo  I'll pass.


            But I guess it should be OK to condem "THEM" condemers.

           Sorry ,  I know what YA mean.   But when we start condeming folks ???   how do we know where to draw the line?

           Gotta be careful what and how we hate lest we become it!

    29. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      I guessed you would be one of those who would defend decency. smile Thank you. smile

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you as well, earnest.  That's kind of you to say.  smile

    30. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      I wouldn't change a word. The behavior is despicable! No need to be careful when confronted by this sort of abuse.

    31. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago

      I wasn't suggesting that you do.

    32. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

      brotheryochanan wrote:

          Reminder again.. the catholics at the time of the acquisition were not christian by any means. They were a power hungry and control minded people, following the ways of their flesh and the dictates of their era and certainly not the "love your neighbor as thyself" which jesus taught.

      *   ______________________________*

      Catholics believe that their Church was started by Yahshua (Jesus Christ to you and them)   Their church started after the death of Yahshua while the Apostles were still around.

      If you read Paul's writings, he said different things to different groups (churches) He caused the separation. That's why there are so many churches that say they are Christian.
      The Greek Orthodox are Christians and so are the Catholics.

      Yahshua didn't start their religion: Paul did

      Yahshua said to call no man "Father"
      Matthew 23:9
      "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven?

      But Paul, going against Yahshua's teachings, taught that the Elders were to be entreated as Fathers.

      1 Timothy 5:1
      Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father ; and the younger men as brethren;

      The Catholics do.

      And what about the Christians control? They teach that  If you don't do as they say, you'll go to hell.

      If a Christian does something, they claim they got forgiveness even if they continue as they are.
      But they believe others have to completely stop what they do or God will never accept them

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And if we realy pay atention to what every one is saying;
        we find that everyone is a little bit correct in our beliefs.


             Is a little bit enough ?

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ________________
          No, it isn't

      2. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        AS a father and calling a man father are two different contexts.
        Matthew 23:9   And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
        father is the word pat-ayr  which means, father, parent.
        So to treat an elder as a parent is absolutely fine.

        And yet the catholics call their priests, father, on purpose!
        Go figure. I call my priest, pastor. hmmm again.

        Hell is a catholic control.... christianity still hasnt see through it yet, but there are those who have.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          _____________________

          I have been around Greeks all my life. My nieces and nephews are part Greek.

          Greek children call their moms Ma ma and their dads Ba ba

          Regardless, Paul and the Elders weren't the peoples parents.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            regardless to treat people AS parents is not to MAKE them parents. This one simple word seems to throw you off.
            IF i treat you AS a lawyer that does not mean you ARE a lawyer.
            The elders were to be treated with honor and respect. This is how both parents are to be treated and that includes fathers.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              _____________
              Small word meanings and the Bible doesn't throw me off in any way. I speak Hebrew and Greek. I have studied the Scriptures earnestly since I was 14.

              You believe what you wish.
              That is a minor thing Paul did. Move on.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Paul never did anything wrong.
                Paul is the 12th disciple
                You cannot see that?

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Matthis is the 12th Apostle.

                  Peter gave a list of what is needed to be an Apostle

                  Acts 1:26
                  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles (among the 11 making him the twelfth)

                  Paul was a ravening wolf/ After he was suppose to be converted. He condoned murdering

                  To be an Apostle
                  "PETER said...therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN until THE DAY HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US --one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
                  (Acts 1:21,22) In other words, in order to be an apostle you would have had to have been a disciple first! and you had to be with him until the resurrection.
                  25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

                  Now I know you know more about it than Paul. But..
                  Are you sure you are reading the Bible?



                  If you can't see this..your not of God

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    See how we shall bump heads.... The Ananias mission (acts 9:10) needs to be dismissed entirely and i am not willing to do that.
                    Acts 9:15  For Paul is a chosen vessel unto me to bear my name before the Gentiles...
                    Peter cast lots, God stopped Paul dead in his tracks.
                    I'll go with God on this one. Peter was often, overzealous.

                    1. 0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      __________________________
                      So in Acts 10 where God (Holy Ghost) tells Peter (one of Yahshua's chosen Apostles) To go to the Gentiles (He speaks of it again in Acts 15) Because he is the Apostle to the Gentiles, means nothing to you, although He was approved and chosen by Yahshua to be his Apostle?
                      Cornelius was converted and received the Holy Ghost and God confirmed with him that Peter was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
                      God always had two or three witnesses.

                      But you believe Paul, a persecutor and murderer, who said he was chosen by Jesus to be the Apostle to the Gentiles (without any witnesses) 
                      Paul said nasty things about Yahshua and the Apostles. Admitted he deceived people but it was OK as long as it brought glory to God.
                      Said if anyone in the church fornicated he was to be killed.
                      Taught against what Yahshua taught...well this is who you choose to believe?!

                      Yahshua said if another come in his own name, him you would believe.

                      Peter and the Apostles did not want to choose the 12th Apostle so they prayed and asked God to let the lot fall on the one God chose, and it fell on Matthew. This wasn't just Peter, it was all of the Apostles.
                      Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew.

                      How is it you think you are allowed to pick and choose?

                      Many people used lots which is not wrong. Divination doesn't mean seeing the future either. The meanings have been changed.

                      Moses, the other prophets, and the High Priests used Urim and Thummim for answers from God

                      You need to reread Pauls letters.

                      Paul was at Epheeus more than anywhere else trying to convert them to his religion, but they threw him out and all of Paul's disciples left him..Paul admits all of this.
                      Paul is the False Apostle that was spoken about in

                      Revelation 2:1-3

                      Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

                      I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

                      You do realize that the Gospel of Luke and second half of Acts were written by Paul's good friend Luke?

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image59
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Acts 1:13   And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and MATTHEW, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
                    Matthew, the writer of the gospel of Matthew,  is already numbered among them.
                    Matthias is a different person, since the writer of Matthew, the taxcollector guy is already numbered among them.
                    Matthew 10:3   Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican (tax collector); James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 
                    Matthias was never heard of again.

                    The urim and thummin were the sardonyx stones on the priests apparel which glowed when God was among them, or rather the right side stone did glow marvelously so. It was an indicator at times of battle, if God was among them. These stones were not to be consulted with oracular speech or incantations or anything. They were merely to be looked at.
                    The casting of lots or dice as i like to say, is a man made version of getting answers from God. Not very reliable.

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ___________________
          Another bit of deception to muddy the waters of so simple a Word of Truth.

          The definition of Father is irrelevant.  The commandment of Yahshua is:


          Matt. 23 [9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.


          The reason is given: the children of God the Father have only one father.  We have none other.  He is in heaven, not on the earth.

          If we call anyone on earth "Father" for whatever reason or by whatever definition, we disobey God.  Contradicting this, Paul (a man on the earth) was teaching his disciples that he was their father, so that they might call him such.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image59
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I am sure that Jesus was not warning of us impending doom for calling our dads, father, which i do not, dad is dad.
            I still disagree that Paul taught this way. The problem is probably in the translation, father should have been parent in 1 timothy.
            If i treat my cat AS a human it does not make him a human, it just means i doted over him wayyyy to much.
            in the parable Jesus does get his point across as how to appreciate God and i am sure this is the point. Pauls point is that we are to honor and respect the elders as parents.
            Not so muddy after all.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ____________
              I am fluent in Greek and Hebrew. I don't need a translation.

              1. Greek One profile image81
                Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Me too!

                Except the Hebrew part....

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ______
                  Let's start a Greek thread sometime

                  yia sou

                  Ti Kanis
                  ti ine to onoma to thiko sou?

                  efkharistó

                  1. Greek One profile image81
                    Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I can't do that!

                    You're cute, but I am a married man!

                    Plus, I am not as flexible since the accident

                    tongue

                    1. 0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      ____________

                      Haha Really funny

                      Folks he 's playing!!

                      I'm glad my husband speaks Greek, because he looks at these forums

                      Cute? Is that it, cute?

                      smile

                    2. 0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      ________________
                      Do you live in Greece?

                      Guess what, today is my birthday

    33. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 5 years ago

      Why is it that those who "KNOW" nothing about a subject are the most verbal about it?

      No one "KNOWS" anything about this jesus fellow, yet some speak so eloquently about "it" as if they do.

      I remember when I was about 4 - 5 yrs old talking to the other kids about Santa as if I "KNEW." him.

      When I gained a little more MATURITY, I realized the reason for and the purpose of the myth and got on with life in the real world.

      Do the people who speak so eloquently and "KNOWINGLY' about this jesus just never mature intellectually?

      It seems that they exist in a kind've dream world of gods, demons, souls, spirits and ghostly entities et al. Kind've a Harry Potter world.

      When I was a kid, I'da called 'em weirdos.

      Today? I just stay quiet but keep one eye on 'em! Know what I mean?

      Wink, wink...smile:

      Qwark

      1. brotheryochanan profile image59
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ummm.... the bible is all about christ. This is why God made a book, so we can know about .... well..... God, his ways and our ways in Him.
        If you don't think the bible reveals stuff about christ and God well you should stay quiet

        Wink... wink smile

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          __________________
          The bible is all about God

    34. 61
      SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 5 years ago

      Qwark,after our last exchange,I would only think you should hush. We`re obviously not worthy of your intellectual prowess.

    35. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

      Godhead means the complete power of the Holy Ghost and God in the flesh means the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It had never been given that way before.

      Yahshua in his flesh had the fullness of the  power of the holy spirit. (The most flesh could contain)

      Godhead does not mean trinity

    36. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

      Apostle means one who is sent out.
      They had to be Disciples (students of Yahshua)
      Before they became Apostles (who was sent out)

      Paul was never a Student of Yahshua. He was too busy murdering the many followers of Yahshua

    37. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

      The Bible teaches us trust in God rather than to lean not unto our own understanding ,so I prefer to have faith in God -more so than 'beliefs' smile

    38. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      I almost missed your birthday.
      Happy birthday Deborah, you don't look 21 yet! smile

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        _____
        Oh thank you Earnest.
        I'm not too old it's just that I was Two (2) years old when my son was born. tongue

        You are the only one that knows my true age.

        Love you

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How is the little man? Is he trying to take over the world yet? He is the right age for that now. smile

          I hope you have a wonderful day! All my love and best wishes.
          Ern. smile

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ________
            He's becoming a man. He's handsome and smart and a kind person.
            Thank you for asking.
            Thank you for your wishes Earnest. smile

     
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