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Why Does God Give Children To Those Who Abuse Them?

  1. AEvans profile image69
    AEvansposted 5 years ago

    Why does God give children to those who abuse them? This has been a question that I have been trying to find an answer for. Discussing this through the years I honestly am looking for a true understanding of why? There are many in the world who would love to have children however they will never bare them. Of course there are options such as adoption or surrogacy which brings to those who cannot bare them a precious gift.


    But for those who cannot stand them why do they have them? Why murder, beat, abuse or violate them? Can anyone answer this question for me? Debating is good but please try not to argue I am just looking for a clear answer. I truly need closure on this question.

    Thanks smile

    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It would take a hub or two to answer this thoroughly.  In short, God gave man the ability to procreate.  He even commanded Adam to be fruitful and multiply. 

      God is not a respecter or people.  He does not put one above the other. 

      I am sure you want more than what I gave.  Maybe I can write a hub on it and explain it more.

      1. AEvans profile image69
        AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That would be a good idea because it bothers me and nobody will answer the question. I will not ever discredit God I am looking for understanding looking forward to reading it. smile

        1. profile image0
          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this



          One more thing that might help you understand a little better.

          There are many who go around speaking of freewill.  They say we have none,  They then accuse God for allowing abusive couples to have children.  They then make a statement like, "If God is real and is a loving God as Christians claim, He would not allow those people to have children. He would not allow man to rape children or a helpless woman."  They say things similar to that.

          What they are actually saying is this, "If God is real and loving he would take away those people's freewill and let me have mine."  They want God to treat those people differently than they want to be treated.

          Still don't think I am there yet with a good answer but getting closer.

          1. AEvans profile image69
            AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sometimes I wish he would choose the people instead of giving all of us freewill. When you see how many are put up for adoption, murdered, abused etc. it is so painful it makes your heart hurt. Write the hubs I will be waiting. smile

            1. Paul Wingert profile image80
              Paul Wingertposted 13 months ago in reply to this

              Goes to show that Gawd isn't all that powerful.

          2. profile image70
            paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            cost of the free will; may be

          3. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            what?  So believers no longer have freewill, so they can't choose to have children if they want to?

            1. profile image0
              SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Please re-read what I said.  Do it slowly.  smile

              1. profile image0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Was that an attempt at being patronizing?

                "One more thing that might help you understand a little better.

                What they are actually saying is this, "If God is real and loving he would take away those people's freewill and let me have mine."  They want God to treat those people differently than they want to be treated. "


                I don't see how this helps one understand anything better, including your summary, particularly the bit about how 'some people' want god to take away other's people's free will yet have their own - how does this have anything to do with people having trouble conceiving?

                1. profile image0
                  SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It has a lot to do with the OP. 

                  People wonder why God does not take away the freewill of abusive parents but at the same time let non abusive parents keep their freewill. 

                  No I was not being patronizing.  Just trying to get you to see what I was trying to say.

                  1. profile image0
                    Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    so you say god doesn't interfere with the bad people.  What's the case for the good people that can't conceive?

        2. recommend1 profile image70
          recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Belief in a god or not - the answer is the same.  If a 'god' is indeed responsible for the 'gift' of children to parents then it is in giving the ability to procreate to the human race.  God or no god it would be the same, no 'being' or alternatvely no scientific principal, brings babies to parents like a stork delivery - it is part of the gift from god or nature that humans have babies.   What humanity does with them is part of free will and is down to humanity to solve for a civilized future for humanity, or for that return to the garden of Eden if you have a god.

          Making a god responsible for 'giving' anything is the same faulty principle as blaming yourself for somebody tripping over your fence that you put up to stop people walking that way.

          To sum up it is not a gods fault or design, not natures fault or design but the fault of society of which we are a part.

          1. AEvans profile image69
            AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I understand what you are saying, but if God allowed us all to procreate then why is it that some bare multitudes of children and others are barren if God made all of us fruitful? We are all created in his own image and the same.

            1. recommend1 profile image70
              recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              YOu probably realise by now that I do not believe in any kind of god or super-being. 

              However - The question is still valid both ways, if any being or nature made everything perfect then there would be no diversity, no change, there would be no challenge that is the opposite force that makes us all go on living.

              1. AEvans profile image69
                AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It does make sense but I also tend to analyze so deeply that I get irritated with myself.LOL! It's ok if you don't believe. Gaining knowledge is what I like to do. smile

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                  ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  this isn't obviously something you can know.

    2. ceciliabeltran profile image86
      ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Let me tell you a story. It's a true story. It might help you understand OR you may not believe me. But it is a true story.

      When I was in my early thirties, I became friends with a Shaman. He was a very learned man. He was a physicist by trade but gave that up in pursuit of the spiritual.

      He was a considered a psychic actually and was commissioned for searching for Yamasita treasure hidden in the Philippine countryside.

      One evening I had a nice dinner with him and he got to talk about up to then, despite all he knows, he still can't figure out why his father brutally abused him as a child. And also, why he is never compensated for work he has done helping people achieve self-awareness.

      At the instant, I started to cough uncontrollably and I started to tear up. It felt like something was at my throat. And THEN, I spoke these words without meaning to:

      "you will not be compensated. you killed 10,000 priests. a nation of priests. just babies! So for 10,000 lifetimes, you will experience from your fathers the brutality you inflicted. Your work is your duty. Recover the 10,000 from the soup of the living. Find each and ever one and awaken them."

      After that, I started coughing again. He held my hand and started to massage a spot and the coughing stopped.

      Let me tell you, that never happened to me before. It never happened again. But I spoke in such a fury I did not feel and did not know where the words came from.

      I still wonder about that night. We talked about it, and he said, could I have been an aspect of Ramses? Thinking that he was, gave him some reason to hang on to. He never once complained about his father again.

      The point is, our life is just a fragment of eternity. and eternity is a mere fragment of G-d.

      1. AEvans profile image69
        AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting perspective. I tend to analyze everything so I am going to also analyze this. mmmmmmm.....

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
          ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          its not a perspective though, it really happened. I was also creeped out for months and it had me thinking of all the teachings of the Vedas about karmic returns.

          1. AEvans profile image69
            AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I apologize I didn't mean perspective, that is an awesome story and you have me thinking about all of the abortions given in this Country based on what you said.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
              ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I had a friend whose cousin's daughter premature baby died. The mother was very guilty because she did drugs I think and could not forgive herself.

              Anyway, being in the company of a Shaman, you hear a lot of amazing stories like this. But he said that the baby said, "I felt the love and that was what I came here for."

              You can say the Shaman was just trying to make the woman feel better about what she did. But, you cannot know that. He did afterall recover several hidden treasures he could not have known was there.

              So, once again, it may seem senseless to us, but some things are really in a whole different level of reason.

    3. Cagsil profile image61
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, according to religion a god gave the human species the ability to multiply/reproduce.
      And, I'm sure you will not find a satisfactory answer and I know why you cannot reconcile it, but as one of your posts already said- you will not discredit your god.
      Refusal to accept the only answer available is why you cannot find why.
      Then you need to reconcile why a god would not create all equal?
      Yes, there are options.
      Irresponsibility and other motivations.
      The absurd notion that the individual feels the need to control and/or dominate other life. It's self-inflating of one's ego.
      As I said above, you won't find an answer, because the one answer you refuse to accept.

      The human species can reproduce(not all included). By all accounts, if a god created all humans to be the same, then obviously, either he/she/it made a mistake or does not exist to begin with.

      If it was a mistake? Then god is infallible, just like humans. Which would also lead to the conclusion that god was made up by humans and not the other way around. I know it's not the answer you want to hear or believe, but in all honesty, there cannot be any other explanation.

      1. Diane Inside profile image85
        Diane Insideposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think you mean to say God is fallible, like humans.

        1. Cagsil profile image61
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, typo, didn't catch. wink

    4. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I could never reconcile such questions with the concept of a loving god.  Same with life being unfair, good people getting sick or dying, good people suffering, good people being infertile or having babies with horrific birth defects.   The religionist answer 'sin' was unsatisfactory.  It makes more sense to me that there is no god & this is just how life is - ups and downs

    5. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The problem of suffering is essentially where the concept of a loving all powerful God falls flat. It's why I'd take people who still believe in Zeus more seriously than those that believe in a perfect God because Zeus was often indifferent to human suffering, he was, at times, a jerk.

      Polytheistic religions were always more open about how flawed their gods were, whereas if you bring up the doctrine of literal Hell with some Christians they still defend their torturous deity as being Holy and righteous despite planning to do things worse than Hitler.

      Anyway I've gone off on a tangent. To answer the question a loving God would do no such thing therefore there are either no gods or the god(s) are indifferent, benign, evil or powerless when it comes to the situation described.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        that's interesting about the polytheistic religions recognising flaws in their gods

    6. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The answer is quite simple, there are no gods.

      However, that is not the answer you want to hear hence it is not an answer you will accept. You will continue to ask the question forever if yo also continue to invoke gods into the equation. smile

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
        ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It is particularly simple for the simple-minded big_smile

        1. AEvans profile image69
          AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I am not simple-minded I analyze everything and sometimes it is complicated. smile

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
            ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Oh, that was meant not for you but for the other guy.

        2. Beelzedad profile image60
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Trolling again? Do you never get tired of trolling these forums tossing out personal insults? Does it make you feel better or superior to do so? How very sad of an existenc for you to be so angry and bitter all the time.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
            ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Do you ever get tired or exposing your patriarchal archetype issues to the world and burdening the rest of us with your uninspired text book copying?

            I enjoy wit-lashes with you because you so ask for it. You know you love it, so don't get on your high horse when you can't come up with something inspired.

            I would talk to you like a human being if you act like one. (I'm not even asking for intelligence...okay high intelligence) What's the matter, did I hurt your feelings? Did I? Are you crying right now? big_smile Please...it's not like you don't dish it out everyday to religious types. YOU DO IT EVERYDAY AND TO ANYONE...I just do it to you, because well...you kinda deserve it.

            1. Beelzedad profile image60
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, I understand you are angry and bitter at being exposed for pretending to know what you're talking about. I get that.



              No, I don't, that is a lie. One of many lies you have posted here.



              No, that is another lie, I do not enjoy trolls.



              No, you troll these forums because you enjoy pretending to know what you're talking about and then respond like an immature child. It has absolutely nothing to do with me although you feel compelled to blame me for your shortcomings. smile

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                read what you wrote and that would be an exact portrait of you.

                1. Beelzedad profile image60
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Excellent kindergarten retort.

                  "I know you are but what am I?"

                  lol

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                    ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    yes, that would be your paradigm.

                    keep at it, maybe you'll find a better comeback.

    7. buffalo49 profile image60
      buffalo49posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I seem to favor George Carlin's attitude toward God's management of the affairs of earth. He is either totally incompetent, or just doesn't give a damn.

    8. Eaglekiwi profile image74
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good question AE.

      They way I can best understand this (like a few others'but why'  type questions) is to remember that we were created with free will,right from the beginning.

      The seed for man(kind) became corrupted(through sin),and although the fruit( our bodies) continues to reproduces ,live and die,the seed remains corrupted, or imperfect.

      Therefore mankind will always reproduce of itself with a blemish.

      The free will gift is always in operation ,but Gods laws are perfect ,because He is without sin,so all sin has a consquence-sin-death.

      The physical act between a man and a woman results in a child.  How they parent that child is not conditional upon the Lord.  They are free to parent as they wish.  Sadly, many parents choose to abuse their children.

      There are some good books on the market (possibly even via the net) but thats how it was explained to me.

      1. Beelzedad profile image60
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You're joking, right? That is an explanation? That's what you were taught and you believe it?

        It is truly amazing the fantasy laden explanations for a scenario which are riddled with contradictions that require even more explanation.

        The very simple and obvious explanation that gods don't exist doesn't even make the grade. Hilarious. lol

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I dont expect you to believe anything other than what opposes God which is why I addressed my post to AE.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I am not opposing your god, I am commenting on the ridiculous nature of your wanting explanation. It is so far fetched from reality, one wonders what fantasy it originated. smile

            1. AEvans profile image69
              AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I question it because it bothers me that so many are abused, murdered, molested and raped. I know you do not believe and that is o.k., I believe but was asking for clarity. Many are correct it is freewill but sometimes I wish that God would pick and choose. The children would not suffer anymore. I have many things that have happened that only God could have gotten me through, it was my faith, my determination and my belief that carried through the storm. Sometimes there will not be any exact answer we just have to let go and Let God, if we are believers. smile

              1. Cagsil profile image61
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Clarity is always a good thing AEvans.
                So, you don't think equality should be for all is what you are saying.
                What you are failing to understand is that a god, who knows the outcome of every decision that every individual could possibly make, already knows and has accepted what is going to happen or could happen. And, let's it. Otherwise, freewill wouldn't be.

                Just a thought.

                And, I requested earlier in your thread that people NOT argue about it, but discuss it. It seems as though, some people just refuse to be polite.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If you say 'He lets it" then you have to acknowledge that 'He is' Cagsil?

                  1. Cagsil profile image61
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey Kiwi, I'm talking to AEvans and trying not to dismiss HER belief. I'm trying to present HER with a rational explanation. SHE believes. So, I have to talk to her as though it does, regardless of what I know.

                    I don't have to admit sh!t which isn't true. I only have to present her a rational take on what she asked. Be a good little girl and go back to arguing with others.

              2. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You won't get any clarity because there is no clarity for anyone who believes in gods. There is only one answer that is clear.



                Your belief carried you through, a god did not carry you through. If he did, why would he do that and allow children to be abused?

                Notice that the existence of gods in this scenario makes no sense whatsoever? smile

      2. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        and how does this explain infertility in good, kind people that would love to be parents?

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The people could be good or bad ( really has nothing to do with the whole concept),but the original seed is already bad, so its like russian roulette.....in the end.

          Like the scripture says to emphasis my point.

          Blessings and curses rain on the righteous and unrighteous.

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            so the 'barren' are cursed?

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Nope

              1. profile image0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                so what's with the 'blessings and curses rain on the righteous and unrighteous'?

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image74
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  What part don't you get ?

                  You quoted "So are the barren cursed?"

                  My answer was 'No'


                  Perhaps a more modern version wold be easier to understand.

                  Good and bad fall on everyone!

                  1. profile image0
                    Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    just getting you to clarify what you mean.  Cursed & blessed sound more 'spiritually' loaded than bad and good

    9. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      AEvans,
      I know many, many children who were abused by the most awful and equally the most loving people. We turn to 'God' because He is the Source from which all things come. Sadly, it is a myth to blame Him for the choices humans make. No one is a puppet, a programmed mechanic, born with immediate hate towards another --especially a child. Humans are angry or hateful for a variety of stupid reasons, that result in stupid choices --choices that effect them, their children and complete strangers. My one friend came from literally a lineage of abusive family tendencies, social, political, religious racism. He has two beautiful daughters, now in their teens and never once raised an a hand to harm them. another family I know is raising their children to hate any other child or race.

      In closure, know this: God doesn't give or take a child from any family to be loved more or less. Humanity made those choices, laws, etc and justified those things --good AND bad-- based on their stupidity, selfishness, ignorance, greed and certianly a lack of self control.

      James.

    10. profile image0
      kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Just my belief that those parents sadly live in a godless world.  I don't think that depth of morale value is pre detected.

      food for thought

      and sad

  2. Diane Inside profile image85
    Diane Insideposted 5 years ago

    Hi, I have often asked myself the same question. I do not have children and although I would love to have one I am quite sure it will not happen. My heart hurts everyday knowing I will not have any, and when I see so many children who are born to parents who are unwanted and unloved it makes my heart ache even more.

    Why, when I would love to have one and would be so devoted to raising that child am I denied when others who have them at the drop a hat and care not for them are blessed with children and sometimes many times over. It confuses me everyday.

    I seriously don't think any answer to this question would ever satisfy me.

    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jacob's wife Rachel was barren yet gave birth to Joseph.  Hannah was also barren and gave birth to Samuel, one of the greatest prophets of the Old Testament.  Not trying to condemn or make you feel bad.  There were others in the OT. 

      We look to doctors way too much these days.  They cannot do miracles, but God can do anything He wants.  He wants us to convince Him to do what we would have Him do as long as it isn't something sinful.

      By the way, I am taking this advice myself also concerning some things in my own life. 

      Glory to God forevermore!!!  \o/

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I've known a few christian couples that have pursued IVF and then given credit for god for conceiving.  Doesn't make sense to me.  No IVF in bible days.  if one fails to get pregnant naturally, does that mean god hasn't blessed them?  Way to make someone feel better - not

    2. AEvans profile image69
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      We adopted so I understand you completely. I love them with every last breath I take but I wish I could have had carried one to. Not in God's plan. When I watch television here people are murdering or molesting there own children. It hurts. So my friend and I was having this discussion and we are really trying to understand to.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I can appreciate where you're coming from . I find it annoying that horrible, neglectful people breed like flies & good, kind people can't conceive.

  3. Diane Inside profile image85
    Diane Insideposted 5 years ago

    I wish adoption was an option that would be an awsome gift as well. But adoption is expensive and beyond our means unfortunately. Unless you it happened like it did for my mother. Our family knew of this young girl who was at the time my age I was sixteen who had a baby and didn't want it. She kept him for a year but was never around pushed him off on everybody and including my parents. Who began keeping him so much sometimes weeks at a time without a word from her. My mother became so attached feeling like his mother anyway that she finally told the girl that she had to take him back or sign adoption papers over to my parents because she couldn't take the not knowing when she would come to take him away.  The young girl said yes right away and my parents made an appointment with a lawyer friend that very day. He drew up papers and she signed them that afternoon. She never came back to see him anymore.

    I heard later that she had at least two more that I know of and the social services had took them away from her for negligence. My little brother is now twenty four.

    1. AEvans profile image69
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Have both of you tried to become Foster Parents? it is easier to adopt that way for many who cannot afford private adoption. Just a thought only because there are so many unwanted children who need loving parents.

      1. Diane Inside profile image85
        Diane Insideposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes I thought about fostering many times and always talked myself out of it. I guess I was always afraid of getting my heart broken becaues it is so uncertain. They can give the children back the birth parents. or any number of things can go wrong at least thats what I'm afraid of. And I guess I'm also afraid they will not see me as good enough to be a foster parent. ugggh. So much goes on in my head about it. I have looked into many options, but I'm not sure what is the right thing to do, I guess.

        1. AEvans profile image69
          AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There are so many children who are not given back for one reason or another. There are also some who do and the parents are ready, willing and able. I would look into all resources and then decide. We did and it was the right choice. Just a thought. smile

  4. PoeticRheia profile image62
    PoeticRheiaposted 5 years ago

    Heres my Answer,A child going up in a drama life,im no longer christian,anymore,but i know the thoughts of it.


    God sometimes puts you in a life stand point,so we can become wiser.


    Sometimes having a great life,won't lead you God,so sometimes God lets things happen for a reason,to bring you close to him,kinda like Job,maybe Satan wishes to CHallanege God,or God has a test.

    Freewill,from my views,in a christian way,i don't fully believe in it.


    but,as it says,God does everything for the greater Good,he could make your life a living hell,but in the end,it served you greatly you,you become wise,learn this & that,know whats wrong or right.



    I agree kids need loving parents,but sometimes,if you come from a christian jewish view,God is working his plan threw that persons life,everyone has a purpose in life right?

  5. PoeticRheia profile image62
    PoeticRheiaposted 5 years ago

    Growing * sorry lol

  6. Jonathan Janco profile image80
    Jonathan Jancoposted 5 years ago

    My stepfather abused my mother and I for years. Until I was 12 or so, I thought the whole thing was my fault. He played the psy-op game with me repeatedly ramming into my head that my mother would've been happier if I was never born. Every time I tried to get her to leave him she would just remind me of all the money he makes as if that was our reward for being beaten to smithereens on an almost daily basis. By the time I was 14, I was convinced I was going to have to kill him. No joke, either, I had it all planned out and even knew how I was going to dispose of his body. I didn't end up doing it and was glad I didn't. God gave him the chance to inspire a child and he failed. However, God gave me the strength to not murder a man who wasn't worth sh!t and I succeeded.

    1. dingdondingdon profile image60
      dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am so sorry your stepfather did those things to you and your mother. Nobody should have to go through something like that.

    2. AEvans profile image69
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This to is sad and through the storm you have a testimonial. I guess there are some things that none of us will ever understand. Maybe there is a reason for those who had to go through so much pain and it made you stronger because of it. God did give you the strength to not take another person's life.

      1. Jonathan Janco profile image80
        Jonathan Jancoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Perhaps I am meant someday to help someone else who isn't as strong as me to overcome similar abuse.

        1. AEvans profile image69
          AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I believe you are. smile

      2. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I believe as many psychologists do, that abuse is handled by some people in a way that turns them into survivors. Survivors have special understanding.

        I agree with AEvans.

        Your capacity to survive gives you the ability to pass on what you have learned, as well as being a beacon to others. smile
        Glad you made it.

        1. Daniel Carter profile image90
          Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Adapt or die. That is what I've learned over and over. You can swallow your own poison and die, or you can learn the positives and move on. It's an extremely important lesson, and not a lesson easy to learn. It took me decades to get through all the crap, and I had to have professional help to make me realize what was real and what was not. You can't become sane by living with insane people. You have to get with sane people to have that understanding.

          Thankfully, after 45 years of insanity, I found some professionals that were sane and benevolent. The issue of God is moot for me. When I got God out of the picture and was no longer concerned, I got better. No one looking over my shoulder, judging me.

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Nice work Daniel.

            Some people are destroyed forever by abuse, others somehow will go to any lengths to recover and survive.

            I'm glad you got with some sane people and went after professional help yourself.
            The world needs more people who can break through the crap and find real self worth. smile

  7. profile image59
    cathie-lawsposted 5 years ago

    Maybe its the karma of those unfortunate childrens.

    Maybe God also require bad people for its Hell.

  8. profile image0
    just_curiousposted 5 years ago

    AE, I'm sorry to tell you this is  a simple biological process. People get pregnant every day whether planned or otherwise. I couldn't imagine trying to resolve that problem satisfactorily, by throwing God into the equation. Any answer would end with a question.

    Planned pregnancy and education would do a lot to lower the number of times you might have to ponder this question.

  9. Daniel Carter profile image90
    Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago

    Since I am a survivor of extremely severe abuse, by a person who was a religious zealot, my conclusion is quite controversial.

    I believe that God is nothing like what I was told. I'm not sure there is a God. I don't think religion, the universe or anything else runs the way religions say it does. Science appears to be more in harmony with what is actually going on than religions superstitions and fables.

    So here's what I think, really:
    If Jesus died for our sins, he still can't supercede our own free will to save our arses. So when I wake up in the morning, Jesus didn't save me from abuse, nor did any other God. That is a deplorable fact. I saved myself. I endure over 20 years of torture and near murders to grow up strong in learning how to protect myself. The only thing Jesus did was show me how to find peace, by enlightenment, despite my horrific upbringing. Jesus, and Buddha, and many other spiritualists.

    If there is a God, he doesn't operate by what any religion determines for him. And so, as a result I really don't think there is a God. If there is, God is nothing like what religions describe. The universe and its workings are the evidence of it. Life on earth is evidence of it.

    When we wake up in the morning we have to look in the mirror and realize that person in the mirror is who is going to save us. And the harsh truth is that many are not as fortunate as I was. They DIDN'T survive. I did. If there was a loving God, he would have saved those who had to die in their torture chambers. Period.

    1. AEvans profile image69
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      How sad. I feel so bad. This is what I am trying to understand because it should never hurt to be a child and there are times when people who had children do not deserve them. sad

      1. Daniel Carter profile image90
        Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think there are lessons to be learned from abuse. Hard and undeserved as that may be. One of the things I had to learn was to forgive. I didn't think I'd ever be able to do that. But as it happened naturally, over decades, I learned that I was no longer chained to the insanity and torture, and that it didn't hurt, and that I could see my abuser as a wounded, sick human being, who really was even more desperate for love than me.

        In that light, it's quite liberating. In that light, the pain no longer matters. But the scars never disappear. They are reminders of the lessons I had to learn, that I cherish in order to have a better life than I did. If God is in that somewhere, then so be it. But I don't see it or feel it that way. What is fact is undeniable. That's what I have to make peace with. There isn't enough evidence for me to determine anything about God. So I don't worry about it, I feel at peace about it, and I try to be what I seek: I have to be the answer to my questions, the forgiveness I seek, the love I seek. I am the answer. There was no savior when I thought I needed it.

        But being the answer to your own problems is powerful. It's liberating. And extremely difficult.

        1. profile image70
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think you are a good person

          1. Daniel Carter profile image90
            Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you, Paar. I believe you are too, although we will disagree on many things. To agree to disagree is fine by me.

            1. profile image70
              paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Human beings are not machine made robots; they have been created by the Creator-God; if they sincerely differ that increases their knowledge and it is essential for human progress.

              I understand as that.

              It is for this that I say that in every locality there should be an inter-faith dialogue to know one another and one another's thoughts. It will increase human wisdom and tolerance.

    2. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I wrote a hub about a boy that grew up with chickens and acted like a chicken as had no human interaction.  It is thought his parents thought he was possessed so put him in the chicken coop since a very young age

  10. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    If you are going to give God the credit for all the good, you got to give credit to God for all the bad. Would it then follow that people are not bad but only God is bad?

    1. profile image70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The Creator-God has the attributes without a blemish; He makes no mistakes; so only good things are to be ascribed to Him; man makes mistakes, so bad things should be ascribed as man's own doing.

      1. Cagsil profile image61
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Paar, please follow along the OP's request. DO NOT ARGUE!

    2. PoeticRheia profile image62
      PoeticRheiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Depends on what Kind of God you believe in.


      and which is really the true God

  11. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    " He makes no mistakes". However is that the definition of a machine?
    "so bad things should be ascribed as man's own doing." Agree.

    1. profile image70
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Machines become out of order.

  12. Disturbia profile image60
    Disturbiaposted 5 years ago

    Unless there is some real mental disorder that makes a person enjoy inflicting pain and suffering upon children or animals, or others in general, I don't think anyone starts out to be specifically an abusive parent.  Everyone has their own reasons, stress, substance abuse, frustration, some people just can't cope with the stresses that naturally come with raising children. For some parents it's just the way they were themselves raised and what might seem unthinkable to some is just considered appropriate punishment to others.

    With all due respect, I think you are asking a question for which there is no answer, unless you ask God himself.  How can any mortal man answer for God or know why God does what he does?  If there is a God.

  13. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    "Unless there is some real mental disorder that makes a person enjoy inflicting pain and suffering upon children or animals, or others in general,"
    As what might seem an overly simplistic answer, my guess is: such is a sense of self-hatred as not measuring up, that the infliction of pain on others, is inflicting pain on oneself, only outwardly projected,
    and at the same time seeming to be better than they, and thus doing pain is doing good - if that makes any sense.

    1. Disturbia profile image60
      Disturbiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, it makes perfect sense, if one has self-hatred to such a degree.

  14. profile image0
    Home Girlposted 5 years ago

    If we accept that there is no god and everything in life is a random chance, a compilation of random chances, then may be we stop looking for impossible answers, stop asking questions that do not make any sense. Just a thought...

    1. Daniel Carter profile image90
      Daniel Carterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I think you've got a good point. In order to arrive at what our truth is, I think we must question all the answers. And I don't think we must answer all the questions. Arguing with what IS is really insanity. It's the entire reason for suffering. Accepting what is is the only way to arrive at peace and begin to proactively work for something better.

      There doesn't have to be a god to accept what is real, and to realize you have the power to change your own circumstances.

      1. profile image70
        paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this
    2. PoeticRheia profile image62
      PoeticRheiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Accept that there is no God??? thats impossiple,Such a thought is of doubt in a divine realm.

      The one's who don't understand things,that say it doesn't make sense,only means you don't understand,others could.

      for awhile,i wanted to believe in such a thing,as no god.

      I believe in a higher power,weather its christian,buddist,jewish,pagan,though im pagan,i believe in it.due to the fact,of things i've gone threw,spiritual things happen in this world,so if thats the case,how can we say god doesn't exist,that would mean spiritual things don't exist,which is a lie.


      Answers come in many forms,weather its words,or signs.


      anyway hope i was hopeful =].could of just made things worse haha ^_^

  15. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    Disturbia - think you are great. Self-hatred is at the root of modern capitalism and the whole progressive system. You not going to buy their stuff unless what you got is less.

  16. jay_kumar_07 profile image60
    jay_kumar_07posted 5 years ago

    GOD knows well.With out reason nothing will happened.

  17. aware profile image70
    awareposted 5 years ago

    I hope that if there is a god, that its nothing like the  god we think it to be .  my idea of god   is not the  blame to all.

  18. aware profile image70
    awareposted 5 years ago

    read one of the two hubs you have bee.....
    And that's all i have to say about that.
    Ray.
    Bee do you believe in a God?

    1. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why does God do anything? Why did he put a baby in a woman's stomach if he knew that it was going to be aborted? Maybe we don't have a clue what God is, maybe we are clueless as to how God is. Maybe we don't even know where and who God is. Maybe in the final analysis, WE are God. If this is true, then everything is OUR fault.

    2. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Which one? smile

  19. brotheryochanan profile image60
    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago

    I am reminded of the wombs that were made barren by God, and those were of His followers.
    I am also reminded of the women who had children late in life and they were His followers.

    To say that God puts all babies in all wombs is stretching the power and perhaps even the desire of God. Some may claim it to be so and i am not about to argue the point.

    I think that the heathen create their own situations but God is always around to strengthen them and through these strange types of situations, bring them to Him.

    We know that trials and tribulations strengthen Gods people and that persecutions and trouble bring people to God.
    I know that God raises up certain individuals to do certain jobs,(moses) even of the heathen (cyrus of persia)

    I do not claim to know why james was killed while peter was allowed to go free (acts 12) We can never know fully what the purposes of God are, but we can be absolutely sure, that God uses every situation we have been through in our past to help others.

  20. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    Beelz why do you never express anything positive; a positive provision for solutions to the issue of sensationalism?

    Just wondering.
    Sad, really, and such a waste of valuable living...

    ( Smile, man. Seriously. It does wonders for the human body, mind and heart. And not the mocking smile or sinister kind --a genuine heartfelt smile ).

    Ciao.

    1. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      More personal attacks. Seems the believer does not care what they say about anyone, they'll just blurt it out without thinking. smile

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Personal? lol Oh good grief.
        Spending infinite hours jolting -else rhetorically monochrome Q's with no relative A's, is no way to spend a day. (hey, that rhymes!).



        smile

        James.

  21. Lady_E profile image80
    Lady_Eposted 5 years ago

    children are gifts. God gives children. It is man's choice to either look after his child or not.

    Some parents do, unfortunately some don't.

    Some parents are pretty normal when they have kids but somewhere along the line, they lose the plot.

  22. Diane Inside profile image85
    Diane Insideposted 5 years ago

    So I am cursed because I can not have children, Others who have children are blessed by God and because God has not given me a child I am not blessed and it is because I don not seek God enough.

    Is that what you are saying SirDent

    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      My goodness.  It is easy to read what I wrote.  If you want children but have a barren womb, seek God about it.

      1. Cagsil profile image61
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        roll

      2. Diane Inside profile image85
        Diane Insideposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There other reasons why people can't have children besides just a barren womb. And yes seeking God  is something I do daily.

        1. profile image0
          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I am glad you seek God daily.

        2. profile image0
          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this



          1Sa 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.

          1. Diane Inside profile image85
            Diane Insideposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            obviously Hannah was not barren, she only thought she was, she did eventually have a child, right? As did many other who thought they were barren, It could have been many reasons why they did not have children when they thought they would. Timing in a womans cycle has a lot to do with it, more so then most people understand. This however is not my problem as far as I know I am not barren. As you put it. I have never had a medical doctor tell me I couldn't concieve. Like I said there are other reasons why one cannot have a baby.

            1. profile image0
              SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              1Sa 1:5  But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
              1Sa 1:6  And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.
              1Sa 1:7  And as he did so year by year, when she went up to the house of the LORD, so she provoked her; therefore she wept, and did not eat.
              1Sa 1:8  Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? and why eatest thou not? and why is thy heart grieved? am not I better to thee than ten sons?
              1Sa 1:9  So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.
              1Sa 1:10  And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

              1. profile image0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                oh, so god made Hannah barren

    2. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I would agree with Diane Inside in that she is one who most certainly has god in her life, seeks god everyday and is about as blessed as any believer I have come across here.

      At the very least, she shows you're theory, SirDent, of barren women who do not seek god as bogus. smile

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        not only is it bogus and hypocritical, but it is a very offensive stance

  23. SomewayOuttaHere profile image60
    SomewayOuttaHereposted 5 years ago

    ...awwwww....Sat. nite on the net....

    ...i have to say something SirDent....

    ...please be careful with what you are saying...you are touching on a very very sensitive topic...you are not a woman...you have no idea of what it means to not have a child as a woman...i understand you have beliefs.....but...please be sensitive...i think that's what god would want - don't you?

    1. profile image0
      kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      bless you

    2. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Someone needed to say this. I think this is becoming more than insensitive, it is probably very hurtful to many many people.

  24. Diane Inside profile image85
    Diane Insideposted 5 years ago

    SirDent if you think God put a five month old fetus in you I think maybe you should step back and evaluate. It sounds to me like you should be asking your wife to explain herself, because it seems to me like something is amiss. A DNA test might be in order.

    Sorry sounds harsh but come on have you listened to yourself.

    1. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      that's pretty much what my hubby said when I told him about this thread

      1. Diane Inside profile image85
        Diane Insideposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah well, I'm sorry, I believe in God but I also believe in medical science and some things just don't happen no matter how much you want to believe they do.

      2. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think the more probable and kinder explanation is that they simply don't understand the process. The town I grew up in had a lot of poor people. There was a girl in the public school who went into labor and hadn't even known she was pregnant. I'm sure his wife is a good person, but maybe didn't know she was pregnant until she started showing. It does happen.

        1. profile image0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          even the bible terminology shows lack of understanding of what happens.  The woman is either 'barren' or 'fertile' like soil & the man has the 'seed'

          1. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well, considering when it was written, I think the writers put it about as well as any ancient could have. But, the point of my post was that there are easily explained alternatives to Sir Dent's assumption of divine intervention that do not include the need for a paternity test. I would point them out, but I hate to add to his embarassment.  He's getting ribbed pretty heavily by the guys about the other alternative.

            1. profile image0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That's the problem with taking the bible literally.  People wrote what they understood to be the case in those times. 
              There's also the incorrect assumption that the woman is 'barren' or infertile.  Quite often it's the man that is infertile.

              1. profile image0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Of course, but to the under educated being led by the ill informed it isn't always easy to explain this.

                1. profile image0
                  SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Can you explain how much education a person needs to be able to understand you?

                  1. profile image0
                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe a basic sex education class.

                    I am simply saying that the implantation of a five month fetus into a woman's womb is quite impossible. I assumed that, perhaps, the more likely scenario was that maybe your wife had irregular cycles,  so therefore had not paid attention to the  fact that she had missed them. Few woman show much of being pregnant until about the fifth month. So, if this were the case you would both have become aware of it at that time.

                    I'm not saying that a pregnancy can't seem miraculous to a couple who has tried repeatly; but to make a claim like the one you made leaves only two possibilities. One of which is the one I have just detailed.

    2. profile image0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I can only guess that you know who God really is. 

      Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      Not once did I say God actually put a 5 month fetus in the womb of my wife.  I only said He could have and may have.  If your god is unable to do so maybe you follow after the wrong god.

      Mar 10:27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you said, 'God could have installed a 5 month fetus in her womb with no problem at all.'
        seems you believe this.  I don't believe it for 1 second

  25. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Why do we misuse everything that God gives us?

      It seems to be the only way for us to learn.

      I do not know how to do anything right. 
      I only know many things Not to do in my attempt to get it right.
       
      Some people don't care if they get it right or not ...
      Some people are SELF absorbed.

  26. Jaydeus profile image81
    Jaydeusposted 5 years ago

    In order to answer your question within any reason and logic, you must toss out the window your understanding of what ''God'' is.
    Traditionally thinking, your ''God'' is an omnipotent being with all the power in the universe to control all aspects of everything, inside and out, yet decided to leave its powers at the door when it came to regulating the actions of its most prized creation, man, with the principle that ''free-will'' will lead these possibly rational beings back to its creator without question, and those that do not stay on the path back home but rather wander about because of this God-given free will are inherently evil and out of his control.
    Using such logic, it is is entirely safe to assume that said ''God'' is a child that formed a play-dough family and then allows some them to fall apart, and in turn throws a fit and tosses them into a furnace because they were not good enough.  Does that sound like a ''God'' you would want controlling your universe?
    Now put aside all that you have been taught by your preachers, your bibles, your parents, and your teachers on the subject of God.  Think in only the aspects of what you can physically observe.  What are we but intelligent animals?  We procreate and decompose just the same.  What makes us different is our ability to express introspection in language and art.  All animals have the same destructive force as we do, and all have the flaws that will make bad decisions.
    Just as the Earth erodes itself, we humans destroy others while spewing forth new ground at the same time.
    As far as parents hurting their children, such atrocity can only be explained by examining other creatures. Animals sometimes eat their young, often out of sickness or sensing flaws in genetics.  Humans hurt their children for much the same reasons, but others hurt for the sake of hurting because they themselves are flawed.
    If one is to continue with the belief that a ''God'' is all-powerful, all-loving, one must also assume that the same entity is all-evil, and all-destructive.
    A positive plus a negative equals zero.  Therefore, take God out of your rational thinking.

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      They can't take God out of the picture, because the indoctrination is at work...and it is rigid.

      So believers will go on and on asking themselves these unanswerable questions, and driving themselves crazier, because they just can't(because of indoctrination)see the obvious answer.

      God is a permanent presupposition in their 'logical' questions in regards to existence.

      This is psychology on a frightening level.

  27. Aley Martin profile image85
    Aley Martinposted 5 years ago

    If you were to believe in reincarnation then the answer is quite revealing. We choose our parents to learn the lessons necessary to clear our karma. We may have been abusive in a past life, or done some major wrong to one of the parents we choose. We come back to the earth to continue learning the lessons of the earth plane. This explains why so many people suffer in a short life, as they clear the karma fast and can die and come back to an easier lifetime. Or perhaps the parents need to learn the lesson and the soul incarnates to help them along. Whatever the reason, it is clear we are the masters of our fate and can accept life as a victim, or as a survivor.

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As a believer in the God Of Abraham .... I realy ...        I mean I realy like your answer.

  28. mrslagibb profile image64
    mrslagibbposted 15 months ago

    It is true God made man in his own image to live a good, honest decent life, but everyday we fight evil with good to eliminate evil.  I believe it is not God who allows an innocent child to go through abuse or being persecuted by their parents it is the people of the world that allows it. It’s the parents themselves that have morals and ideas that they developed throughout their lives, some  have developed good ways of living; whilst other have developed a bad way of living; this is why I said we fight evil with good everyday.

    It is these kinds of people in society that go undetected to the rest of world; these are the ones influenced by evil that abuse. Yes it is sad that an innocent child is born to these abusive people, but the innocent Child abused by these people I believe become a messenger of God to spread his word of love to destroy evil. No-one should ever go through Abuse, a child, or an innocent person it takes survivors of abuse I think to spread the word of God to get people to see how wrong this world is becoming.  Usable methods need to put in place to detect Abusers of any evil doing that comes to light, but we all live behind closed doors where no-one seems to want to get involved.

    I have tried to show why people abuse in my article. Daddy Be Praised. http://hubpages.com/relationships/Daddybepraised

  29. profile image61
    Alloiseposted 13 months ago

    I have faced with the infertility problem. In the silliness of my tender years I went for abortion being 19 years old. And when I got married and we start our thoughts concerning child it emerged that I have a lot of problems with my woman health. For some time, I took some medicines and went through various treatments but that doesn't help much. At the end we understood that only egg donation can save us. So, we started to look for an appropriate clinic. We live in Germany and such procedures as egg donation or surrogacy are banned. That’s why we had to go to the foreign country where such program could be made. We chose Ukraine. Of course you will wonder and ask why Ukraine??? Yes, we also had some hesitations before going to this country. But after studying all the information concerning one Ukrainian clinic and reading a numerous comments we thought that it must be rather a good choice. Price for the program surprised us a lot in comparison with other countries where it is conducted. We paid 7 thousand euro and received two IVF attempts with donor eggs. I was surprised a lot when manager said it is one fixed sum and one red cent more! Driver, accommodation, food, medicines – all these are included in the price 7 thousand euro!

    1. profile image61
      Sandy Woodsposted 13 months ago in reply to this

      Hi! Your story is amazing) What is the clinic? You are very lucky to find such conditions. I wasn’t so successful. I practiced donation in Spain. Since I live there, and unfortunately I experience it firsthand. Firstly, I had three IVF attempts with my embryos. But they were not of very good quality and I was offered a donation. Then I made 6 attempts with donated embryos and all were failed. I think you can imagine my desperation. I cried, I thought I was crazy. How is this possible? But when I came to life, I began searching the information. It should also be a cause. I was looking for people with the same problem. And I read about the frozen eggs, that in Spain there are very few donors, thats why they froze the donors eggs. But the horror is that after freezing the implantation rate is reduced to the minimum. I paid for each embryo, which is not really cost anything. Girls, if you want to have children, look for other options, don't go to Spain. I'm also trying to find other options. Take care of yourself and be careful making a choice.

      1. profile image61
        Alloiseposted 13 months ago in reply to this

        We have received a great service and welcoming staff of the clinic. Our manager treated us on the highest level. She fluently speaks German and we could communicate free. She helped us in all our needs, told all the details of the program and answered all our questions. Our manager had a great number of clients except us. Nevertheless she gave appropriate attention to us and we were in touch from the very beginning of our medical program and till its end. So what? You will ask))) I am a happy pregnant woman!!! In my case it was needed only two IVF attempts to become happy parents. So, don’t be afraid and go to the Ukrainian clinics of reproductive medicine. We paid only for flights. I was looking for clinics for a long time. Packages, service, conditions and prices are very different. I guess I am very lucky to find Biotexcom clinic. I think you could hear about that clinic. As I know they are very popular among foreigners.

  30. Trichakra profile image61
    Trichakraposted 6 months ago

    Question is similar to do you believe in god or not..

 
working