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Maybe None of Us Understand God

  1. Peter Owen profile image61
    Peter Owenposted 5 years ago

    The arguments in the forums are all over the place, and rightly so. Christians, Muslims, Atheists all posing their arguments.
    All we spout about is what we were taught or the conclusions we came to on our own.
    I suggest that none of us know anything about God. We don't know what, why, when, how, etc.
    I'm sure the believers will now come back with all the book wiritngs. The Atheists will chime in with their arguments against.
    I do beleive in something as this is the only logic I can come to. What that is still is being formulated after 60 years.

    1. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      How can anyone know about something that is purported to exist but has never been seen or shown to exist?

      It's like saying we really don't know anything about unicorns or leprechauns. smile

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You've never seen unicorns or leprechauns?

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sure, they run free in my backyard even though I can't see them, so I just don't know anything about them. smile

          1. Peter Owen profile image61
            Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well maybe God is hanging out there on a lawn chair with beer and stogie in hand.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              But, how would you know that if you can't see or hear him? It would appear that a god sitting in a chair with a beer and stogie is exactly the same as an empty chair and exactly the same as unicorns and leprechauns running free in my backyard. smile

              1. Peter Owen profile image61
                Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I don't, I'm just saying he could be there. or he could be the guy next door. I just don't know.

                1. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly.

                  So, how could you even suggest a god is sitting there in that chair if you just don't know?

                  Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to unicorns and leprechauns or is there some difference here you'd like to share? smile

                  1. Peter Owen profile image61
                    Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm suggesting "could" and you see "is".
                    You appear to have a problem with suggesting "could" without proof of existence.
                    Do I need to prove the "I don't know"

              2. 0
                jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hi Beel,
                Did you see black hole or dark matter, that you believe those exist?
                As per Dave the universe is 'god's' creation, created from nothing. Then the existence of the universe is the evidence of god. What is your problem if he chose to bring it in steps(evolution)? God is outside time and space, outside your  4D universe, then how your experiments can find him? You say the universe arose from nothing, Dave say, that event happened because of god, he created it from nothing. And such an omnipotent god, if does not wish to reveal himself to you or your instruments, how are you supposed to see him? After all nobody says your unicorn created the universe! And you don't expect god's foot prints or bones?

                Dave,
                This is not to support you. All your claims are based on an ancient textbook written by barbaric Jews to show their superiority to themselves. All cultures have done this at various point of time, only this one is more widely accepted. Though it is most widely accepted does not make it true, nor the claims irrational. No book has created more discord or backwardness among humans than this book. Then you ask why you are ridiculed. Suppose I say it is a three headed man who created all the world from his mouth, and I ask everybody to follow him without rationally explaining why that belief is superior to everything else, you may probably ask me to get my head examined. You are also doing along the same line, only your version is widely followed. But wide acceptance is not the criteria to decide facts!

      2. Jefacity profile image60
        Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Just because you can't see or prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For all we know the human body is an instrument to feel god and yours is set at a different frequency and a slight rearrangement turns a person into a believer.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          lol Good one!!

    2. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Only a fool would allow anything other than self to dictate how their life is to be lived.

      Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god, to be understood.
      Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god, to be lived.

      Therefore, no god required.

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        True, but that doesn't mean there is no god or what form that God takes.
        As for life, I agree. but I think the concept of a God was not devised to aid in how to live. The concept is to explain what happens after death. Without a God concept, all life would then be meaningless since it would stop at death.

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Untrue. This shows you inability to deal with reality, understand your life and know your role in the world you live in.

          Life is given meaning, by one's self, which is to create purpose for self. Once you give your life purpose, you give it meaning as well. Make sure YOU give your life purpose and that it is NOT dictated by anything else. This will show you the true responsible path for living.

          The purpose you create should not be about self. It should be greater than self. Example: Betterment of Humankind and/or the Survival of the Human Species. Both require you to see beyond yourself, understand and have compassion for others who don't know better.


          Edit: No god required.

          1. Peter Owen profile image61
            Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So then what is the purpose of Mankind being here?

            1. Cagsil profile image84
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Why would you think that there is a collective purpose for mankind? Especially, when purpose of life is an individual creation. hmm

      2. 0
        SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Would you say the same thing about a toddler with a screwdriver stuck in an electrical socket?

      3. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        everyone's life is dictated by something or someone. you quickly find yourself in prison otherwise.

    3. 0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree that we cannot understand God.  God cannot be understood, but He can be known.  He can only be known when he reveals Himself.

      1. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        Even believers in the same religion can't agree on anything. Hilarious. smile

    4. qwark profile image62
      qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      G'mornin' Peter:
      Your comment is: "Maybe None of Us Understand God."
      My question is: "understand what?"
      Im not an atheist, there's no such thing.
      Qwark

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Qwark - I don't see what position you are taking here. Are you agnostic?

        1. qwark profile image62
          qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Peter:
          I am not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in supernatural divinities. I am an "ignostic."
          Now, what are we trying to understand?
          Simple question, but is the answer "simple?"
          Qwark

    5. thisisoli profile image65
      thisisoliposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't understand Santa either, I mean he has allll those toys and he just gives them away?!

      1. qwark profile image62
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        oli:

        Santa is an "ascetic" christian!...and he dresses funny, kinda like the pope 'cept Santa's fav color is red.

        The dif between Santa and the pope is that Santa gives everything away.

        The pope is a "hoarder" of anything of value and he only gives away  "pocket change"(if ya beg for it.)

        That's my take on it...smile:

        I still don't understand what it is we're supposed to understand. God? what the hell is this god thing?


        Qwark

    6. Jefacity profile image60
      Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      fun fact about god! everyone understands God through their own lens of perception. To the atheist he is a made up delirium who has never been proved. To the Christian he is Christ and the bible is his holy word. To the Muslim.... etc. etc. etc. Point being to each individual God seems to reveal himself differently.

      Here's an interesting challenge to any non-believer. Look inside yourself and really, really analyze yourself. Take a deep introspective look into who you really are. Find out if you have a soul or you're just atoms that randomly combine together in increasingly complex, seemingly infinite patterns.

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And how does one find this out?

        1. Jefacity profile image60
          Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Use your awareness, that which is your attention and focus it introspectively. it is not easy, nor quick.

          1. Peter Owen profile image61
            Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Such a quest will not allow one to find, see , or feel the soul, if it exists.

            1. Jefacity profile image60
              Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              its how i found out i had a soul

              1. Peter Owen profile image61
                Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well please share how you did that and how you know it's your soul?

                1. Jefacity profile image60
                  Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  my friend i just told you! if I could explain it in simpler terms i would. I am quite thankful to know my soul.

                  1. Peter Owen profile image61
                    Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Not really. You said:
                    "Look inside yourself and really, really analyze yourself. Take a deep introspective look into who you really are..."

                    This doesn't answer How you knew it was your soul that you found.

    7. 0
      kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      sad if we need to understand god. Whatever your belief, just let it be hmm:

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No, I think we should constantly stive to strenghen our beliefs, whatever they are. Understanding is our quest in everyhing we do.

        1. Donna Suthard profile image83
          Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          mediate, on a daily basis..as you so wish..

          1. Peter Owen profile image61
            Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            meditation is an interesting concept. I have done this alone and in groups. Had one interesting experience, but on the whole never know if I am achieving what I should be.

    8. 0
      CollBposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Faith comes into all this.  If you have faith in believing that a supreme being exists, then you will be able to understand why we came into existence and the purpose of our life on earth.

      It is a difficult concept to grasp for there is no evidential proof that God exists whereas the Darwenian theory has sound, factual proofs.

      It's also for us to decide whether we want to believe in this supreme being or not; it's our own personal experience which helps us decide what we want to believe and whether we have faith in our beliefs as there is no evidential proof of a God but there is in evolution.

    9. Woman Of Courage profile image61
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Peter, I was reading the title of this thread. I noticed you are suggesting that no one know anything about God and I respectfully disagree.  None of us understand everything about God, but we can learn much about him by reading the word of God.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi my sister in Christ smile W.O.C

        Wouldn't it be great if people decided to search for God based on Gods instructions, and not based on mans understanding (lots of head knowledge- and little faith).

        He is as close as a humble prayer, and hides not from a sincere heart.

        I find so many want evidence,proof,much like the world demands proof of Osama's death,yet even when Jesus walked among men ,they were not convinced.

        That being said ,I understand why Christians are not believed by some, ridiculed by others, it is nothing new-

        Still His voice calls and His Spirit is felt all these years later.The same God who said:

        I have pursued you with an everlasting love-yes to the ends of the world smile

        But my heart (like yours) rejoices in the one seeker who perhaps emails or leaves a message saying thank-you.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi my sister in Christ big_smile Yes that would be great. I love to walk by faith and to be humble to God's instructions. I am agreeing with your beautifully-written post. Christians do not need to show unbelievers proof. The evidence is revealed by God's spirit when we seek him .

    10. Naomi's Banner profile image75
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Peter I just want to say thank you for your Hub it was very thought provoking and fodder for great discussion.  I enjoyed reading everyones thoughts and ideas and even had to throw my 2 cents in as well.  Good day!

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        My pleasure. I'm amazed how much activity this produced. For some reason, this forum is very big on debating Religion and beliefs. I'm just saddened that much of the activity can really get venomous for no good reason.

    11. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe none of us were meant to understand past a certain point. Wasn't the only explanation he was supposed to have given to Moses was I Am?. If you believe in God, you'd certainly have to wonder why there are so many who claim Divine knowledge and no one agrees.It leaves three options. There either is no God, or whatever God is, it can't communicate very well with the physical plane; or we simply wouldn't understand the explanation yet, so why bother. I can't imagine if there was a creator it would go out of the way to confuse everyone.

  2. Dave Mathews profile image59
    Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago

    God exists. Just because you can't see him does not mean he is not present. Many miraculous things happen daily that science nor medicine or anyone can explain but still they miraculously happen. One cannot see the wind but can feel it and see its effects on life. All one has to do is to look at nature to see God creating from nothingness.

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not disagreeing. What I am saying is that your statement is based totally on what you have been taught,and not a realization you would have come to on your own.

      1. Dave Mathews profile image59
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this



        Peter we all have to learn about things from somewhere the answers don't simply fall out of the sky and into our hands or fill our heads. It would be great if when we are born God introduced himself to each one of us and said I am God and I created you and everything in this universe, but instead we have to learn this and other things from people or books or through experience etc.

        1. Peter Owen profile image61
          Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Dave - that's my point - we take what we were taught by those before us as the Word. And all those questions that we can't answer, we just either ignore or say it's a mystery. Or, many rebel at the inability to get answers to those questions and claim they are Atheists or at least Agnostics.

          I don't have the ability to go either way. I just chalk it up, believe in a power and that is about as far as I can go.

        2. TLMinut profile image60
          TLMinutposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But when God DOES introduce "him"self to you, you know. All the arguments thereafter are still entertaining but irrelevant. My mind now has an idea but God is not within my ability to comprehend much less explain. None of the things I had ever heard or learned about God had anything to do with what I discovered, but I certainly see why people stick to the giant man in the sky idea. Way easier to deal with, gives a way to discuss and relate and much less overwhelming and intimidating. If those ancient Israelites really knew God, I can see why they told Moses to go meet with him and to leave them far away!

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Very nicely said TLM, especially the part about Moshe. James.

        3. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          so you haven't met god then?  So how can you and other believers claim to have a personal relationship with god?

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ______________________

        Not everyone goes by what they are taught. As a matter of fact, I have gone just the opposite.

        If you do not learn on your own or you're not taught, how are you to know?

        You can't judge others based on yourself. Your statement should have been that you don't know anything about God.
        We're not all the same.

        1. Peter Owen profile image61
          Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Deborah - fair enough. But those that say they "know" don't really "know", they "believe" based on the unproven.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            How do YOU know ,that they dont know?

            1. Peter Owen profile image61
              Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I don't- all I can state is opinion.

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes opinion wink

                The fact is I know that God has made a difference in my life.
                I know how I was before ,and I know how I am know.
                My life and my mind was changed for the better. smile

                1. Peter Owen profile image61
                  Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm glad your belief in God has helped you (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic). I agree that belief can do this.
                  But belief does not imply that we know God exists.
                  I believe in God too, but I simply can't say that I know.

      3. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        All saved christians have a relationship with God. We do something bad, God corrects us. We need something and God provides. My friend is sick unto death and God answers prayer and heals him. I need internal change in my life or revelation to handle a situation wisely and God works. I am lonely and need company, God listens and supports.

        The relationship is what Christians use to identify with God. Part of that relationship involves studying His word, yes, but the majority of the christian relationship comes with obedience. The more we obey the closer we get to God, the more he reveals and the more we know. IF we stop obeying, God slows down the relationship, this is called a wilderness experience. We discover that the health of a christian relationship is directly equivalent to the health of their prayer life.
        The ones who are closest to God have the best relationship with God.
        Its this relationship that offers proof.
        For example, there is this wonderful 'feeling' that the believer having prayed the sinners prayer and been saved by God experiences and life is wonderful, for a while, then its time to grow up. God removes the blessing of forgiveness and lets us see the state of our hearts. When self takes residence in our hearts this hinders the work of God. The christian can either get rid of self and surrender this area to God and then walk in Gods good graces of revelation, knowledge and power or the christian can give into self and end up in a wilderness situation. Kinda like low marks in school, good for a job, not THE job but some job. underqualified for Gods purpose.
        We have heard the 'I love jesus" doctrine, love, love, love and all ya need is to love God. Well, jesus said "if ye love me you will keep my commandments".
        Many failed christians have allowed self to reign in their lives and put God in the background and during this time of rebellion have wondered where is the proof? The more self takes over the less God is seen by them until all they can see is reality and their doctrine becomes physics.
        Gods yoke is not burdensome, it is easy and light.
        Two friends walking, talking while taking a stroll down a garden path.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          We should let all the starving children in the world know that your god provides for you, I'm sure they'll be so happy for you as they lay down their lives for your happiness. smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            yes! and you and all the others can have the same thing and i thank God there are people out there trying to make this difference accessible to them. Enjoy your comfy couch.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry to see you admit to such a thing.

      4. Woman Of Courage profile image61
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Peter, How do you know my statement is based totally on what I have been taught.? It seems you are assuming things. Actually, not one person in my life has told me to understand God by reading his word. I was taught that the bible is the word of God, but I have come to the realization on my very own to know God is through reading his holy word. You have a right to disagree.

        1. Peter Owen profile image61
          Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'm not going to disagree. I just find it hard to believe you would have come tho that realization solely by reading the bible if you had not been taught that the bible is the word of god. Then again, maybe you would have.

    2. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, just like unicorns and leprechauns, Dave.



      Yes Dave, we can "see" the atmosphere and know exactly what it is made up of and understand that it moves thus creating 'wind.'



      Sorry, but nature does not reveal gods, it reveals only itself and the evolutionary evidence of its origins. smile

      1. Dave Mathews profile image59
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        First off there is but ( 1 )one God not gods. Nature as well as mankind as well as every building, car, dollar, computer, is a creation from God. Nothing in this world would exist, including the world itself, if God did not create it, nothing including you my friend.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That is merely your personal belief, Dave. It is entirely an irrelevant statement in light of the many religions who say exactly the same thing about their gods, hence we must use the term gods.



          Again, that is just your personal belief which has nothing to do with reality, Dave. Entirely irrelevant. smile

          1. Dave Mathews profile image59
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You would not recognize reality if you tripped over it. You are like a cop who couldn't find his badge pinned to the front of his shirt.
            True each religion has its "God" but it is the same God only they have a different name for Him. God is still God.
            Yes these beliefs are my beliefs. You have no right to attack them with your negativity and sarcasm.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              And yet, I study and observe reality as my work.



              You contradict yourself, Dave. If that were true, what made you come to choose a particular god amongst all the other gods which you say are the same?



              I have every right to attack your beliefs, Dave. Deal with it. smile

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You may have the right, but you certainly don't have the background or the knowledge. The right you have is only your perceived right. Its like when i say I went into the mathematics room and started talking geography with them. In order to discuss math i have to use math as the basis for my discussion. This type of argument has value to both sides, but when peeps come in and start talking non bible with bible believers, its just moot. There is no level ground for discussion. If one side takes God out of the equation its like me taking the prime numbers away and then saying, "your math theories don't work". I seem pretty stupid doing this.

                1. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Your logic doesn't follow at all, however I'm not surprised.

                  Talking math and geography are two different topics, talking religion is one. Do you see your flaw now?



                  So, now you use the example of talking math with math. Notice how your posts make no sense at all? smile

              2. lizzieBoo profile image78
                lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                you're  not attacking Dave's beliefs Beelzedad, you're attacking Dave himself for having beliefs. You said that his personal beliefs are irrelevant. Why would you say another person's beliefs were irrelevant? That doesn't sound very democratic.
                Belief is logical and entirely valid. Even scientists will tell you that.
                Dave believes. Deal with it.

                1. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, we've been down that road before. I understand believers assume we are attacking the person when we attack the beliefs. You may want to take a course on debating to understand the differences.



                  You sure like to make up stuff a lot. lol



                  Yes, I understand Dave believes. Thanks. smile

            2. Naomi's Banner profile image75
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Dave I believe you are mistaken when you say there is others Gods but they are all the same god with a different name. Even God the one true God says in His Word that He is the true God making other gods less. A god is something one chooses to believe in and not all gods are equal or carry the same name or are the same. The God who created us to be is the one true God all other are poor imitations

              1. Dave Mathews profile image59
                Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                As a Born Again Christian I realize there is but one God. What I am saying is that God is called by various names by different religions. God is still God.

                1. recommend1 profile image69
                  recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You are absolutely right, by any name it is a representation of an ideal and not real, not under any name.

                2. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If you believed that, you wouldn't be a born again Christian.

                  You have also made many statements contrary to that effect. I can point them out to you each time you make them. smile

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    God does have more than one name.

                    I do too wink

                3. Naomi's Banner profile image75
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes you are correct there are many names for God however there are also many gods that others follow that are not God.  Mahamad for instance was a man that some call god however he is dead ours is not.  Budah is a god that is also dead and is not our living God.  So yes Jehovah, Yaweh, Jehovah Shalom etc. this is our God but not all the gods others worship is the God.  I am glad you are a born again christian!!

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That came out of no where?

        Just appeared like magic

        And you say the Christians believe in fairytales
        lol

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          _______________
          I Believe in the one fairytale about God, and I'm not Christian.

    3. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Now THAT'S some specious reasoning! "Since we know the wind exists even though we can't see it, we can rightly assume that ANYTHING unseen and claimed to exist probably exists also." That might fly with the kids at Sunday School, but not in here with the grown ups. You've got 5 senses, so if one of them fails to perceive something, you've still got 4 to fall back on. You can't see the wind, but you can hear it, feel it, and see its effect. God, on the other hand offers no such alternative options. You're just appealing to the "God of the gaps" fallacy, where you assume that any time you (or science) can't explain something, "Goddidit."

      And if your definition of "miracle" is "science can't explain it," you're basically claiming that the concept of miracles is relative to its audience. Science couldn't explain MOST of the things a few hundred years ago that it can now, but that doesn't make any of those things miraculous back when they happened.

      To claim something is miraculous is to claim that it is in violation of one of the physical laws of the universe. Since we don't yet have a COMPLETE understanding of all those laws, there's really no way of determining whether or not a miracle is occurring, despite you claims. BTW, what "daily miracles" are you talking about? (or are you just calling anything you can't explain a miracle?)

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes miracles are relevant to their audience.
        Just because you can't perceive a miracle doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
        Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
        What ungodly people call coincidence and chance and luck, godly people, ascribe to the workings of God.
        Ive been all over the 'violation of physical laws'.  In the beginning God created... the parting of the sea... jesus healing the sick and maimed, restoration of the withered hand.. his ascension.... God is more than able to violate physical laws, they are under his authority. To take the supernatural out of the bible and christianity is not possible. We live in a supernatural world full of supernatural expectancy.

        1. pay2cEM profile image91
          pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No, we live in a natural world where people constantly IMAGINE that supernatural things are going on because they desperately want it to be true. And we have loads of holy books CLAIMING supernatural things took place once upon a time, but since there's no way to verify any of those claims, and since those kinds of things never happen anymore, there's no good reason to believe those books were telling the truth. What you call "spiritual discernment" is nothing more than making up supernatural explanations for events which don't require any supernatural explanation.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry but you don't know and because of your misunderstandings and lack of knowledge and carnally minded trappings i break off dialogue with you. Perhaps i am just sick of hearing this malarkey all over again.
            Believe what you will, but your inference of desperate is as lame as the hope your belief gives you.
            over and out.

            1. pay2cEM profile image91
              pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "Ah, the ol' I'm-Taking-My-Ball-And-Going-Home-Because-The-Big-Kids-Won't-Let-Me-Make-Up-My-Own-Rules-To-Their-Game defense! Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

            2. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              My goodness, can't agree with your brethren or anybody else. Are you sure you didn't just make up your own personal religion? lol

      2. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you really have read Dawkins haven't you. Alas Dawkins is not the great scientist he thinks he is. I recommend you read The Dawkins Delusion by Alister McGrath. Puts into perspective that he's a bit of a joke and a fuddy-duddy really.

    4. cheaptrick profile image62
      cheaptrickposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's quite a Leap,if it cant be explained then god must have done it.Proof of god buy inference.And while we're on the subject of leaping...and Unicorns...here's some advise you should take to heart...never and I mean Never...play Leapfrog with a Unicorn,they can not be trusted to keep their heads down.That will raise your voice at least three octaves if your leap of Faith isn't Very well calculated.OUCH!

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol  leapfrog with a unicorn!

    5. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      _______________________
      That's true, I see people in the hospital who aren't given any hope by the doctor, yet because of their hope in God they get well.

      Someone said that because I am a nurse I should not believe in a God. That I should be scientific in my thoughts like the other nurses.
      I got news for that person. All of the nurses I've met believe in God. They have also witnessed recovery where the prognosis was poor.

      1. pay2cEM profile image91
        pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "They get well because of their hope in God" is a statement both of faith AND of scientific value, which means it's testable. But to test it, you'd have to remove every other conceivable variable from the equation: their loved ones, their pets, their jobs, their personalities, their general outlook on life, etc. Remember, there's a big difference between correlation and causation. And since people who believe in God both recover and die at the exact same rate as people who don't believe, it would seem like you've opted for causation rather than correlation - after engaging in selective observation (counting the hits and ignoring the misses) - simply because you LIKE that explanation, and not because it's objectively true.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That's interesting if you take God out of the equation. Death, to the christian is entirely in Gods hands. People die and recover, but why? because of their doggie? their good jobs? their wonderful personalities.... what power do these attributions really have? Oh i had cancer but because of my wonderful lifestyle and pal, Rover here, i am recovered. lol  If this were the case then nobody would die unless a car hit em. You're scenario also leaves out those who are heavily medicated and those unaware of their surroundings, comatose and zomboid and those in Intensive Care Wards.
          This is what i call, "scraping the bottom of the barrel fallacy".
          In case you did not realize this you have used the substitution fallacy, the healing power of a good life for the knowledge and power of God.

          1. pay2cEM profile image91
            pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry, I got whiplash there trying to follow all your points, and I had to go ice my neck for a bit. What I was saying is that people with an optimistic outlook on life - or something to live for that brings them joy (the medically sound reason why many senior homes get pets for the residents) - tend to have a better recovery rate than their counterparts, regardless of religious belief/nonbelief. How you extrapolated that thought to mean that, in my worldview, only people getting hit by cars would die is beyond me.

            The facts is that many ailments, physical problems, and diseases are reversible. Cancer goes into spontaneous remission all the time...equally so for theists and non. Science cannot yet explain why this is, but somehow you think you can...which is weird if you think about it. If someone has allergies and gets a cortizone shot to fix it, you don't say "God did it," because you know how the recovery occurred. But if someone recovers from cancer - and since science can't yet explain how or why - you say, "God did it," which is like saying, "I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it: GOD!"

            Like I stated previously: there was a time when science couldn't explain how or why a sick person sneezing could make another person sick. Religious people invoked divine causes or demonic activity, and then science discovered germ theory and all the supernatural trappings went out the window. This is called the "God of the Gaps" fallacy, which is a REAL logical fallacy and not one I just made up like your "scraping the bottom of the barrel fallacy." You use "God" to explain anything that doesn't have an immediate and obvious explanation, apparently content to ignore the fact that people have been doing this for thousands of years, and always eventually realize that it wasn't necessary to invoke the divine in the first place. 


            (And you're going down a mighty slippery slope if you want to start claiming that every death is in God's hands, because that argument relinquishes any defense you may have ever had about abortion. It was just those fetus' God-appointed time to die, right?)

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              because people sin and do bad things, does that mean that God pushed them to do bad things? or was it just their choice? I'll answer that for ya. It was their choice. In case you haven't noticed we have a lot of things that are in the power of our own hands. God just shakes his head.
              I will fully disclose my thoughts on this topic further. I see in the bible that God shuts up wombs and opens them. Amazing huh. We see this in Abraham. Jeremiah was born for a specific purpose. (Jeremiah 1:4 i think 4). But concerning the unsaved people i think God lets the fire they play with, burn them. Why would a loving God do this? Because he respects our free will, the very purpose we were created - to be different than the angels and people often turn to God in times of affliction. Affliction brings the christian closer to God and brings people to God. You see, humans value this life far more than they should because compared to what God has in store after this life, is so so much better than what we have now. I hope you have enough background to compute this information correctly, not tryin to be ferocious, just saying this is not a simple thing to explain in so short a post .
              So is every death in Gods hands?... lets look at the christians who pray, sometimes the person dies. There are so many factors its kinds dumb to generalized as i have done, but i will continue anyhow. Sometimes the person gets better. Either way the Christian is "yay God".
              We are reminded of omniscience. Lets say i create a painting and i put a tree in the lower left hand corner. Someone comes along and says, "hey, why did you put that tree there, it should be over in the other corner and that bird should be there and the river should run this way and that way not as you have it". I would just say, "excuse me, I wanted my painting this way". Hopefully the person would realize that they have no say in what i have done with my creation. How much more should we NOT criticize how God is with his creation.

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                god shuts & opens wombs - what nonsense!

                1. dingdondingdon profile image60
                  dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  But it's in the BIBLE, it must be true.

                2. brotheryochanan profile image61
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Does limiting God make you feel better?   Read genesis 1:1 again

                  1. pay2cEM profile image91
                    pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    ...and just in case you don't get the point from Genesis, you can read the exact same thing in the Babylonian Creation Epic, which is where the Hebrews plagiarized it from.

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ___________
          Well, we will all die.

          But I've stated before that the hospital I work for is a training and research hospital. They look closely at everything and compare. When they finish their research, which sometimes takes years, they report their findings to the government.

          Our hospital is the one that found that people die within three (3) months before or after their birthday (not deaths due to accident, suicide, or murder)

          Our hospital has found the ones that got well even though they had a poor prognosis, believed in and trusted God.
          (This research is important to them. Our hospital is Catholic and is run by sister Celeste and partners)

          1. pay2cEM profile image91
            pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And far be it from the Catholic church to fudge facts to promote a particular belief!

            I bet they would have also found that the ones who got well even though they had a poor prognosis had televisions. According to your reasoning, we could aptly conclude that tv's make people get better. Since there are a plethora of other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head - and since none of them have been tested or evaluated - I'm still not sure how you can definitively say what made a person get well. Were they not in the hospital? Do hospitals not make people better? I think it's hilarious how a person will get sick and opt to head to the hospital instead of a church, and then when they get better from the 24/7 presence of modrn technology, declare, "Goddidit."

            I'm just guessing that since nuns aren't scientists, sister Celeste et al don't know how to properly conduct a double blind experiment to isolate variables. It sound like yet another case of religionists using ill-understood statistics to "prove" things they want to be true.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No, its people trusting in what their God says. I often have wondered how a person would find a bit of mold in a peetree dish and decide to see if that mold has any medicinal benefits. Or that a key on a kite string would lead to electricity. Why did the hula hoop catch on? lol, i jest smile
              We don't use ill-understood statistics to prove things we want to be true, we trust in God always. I can't second guess Gods intents, i have no better wisdom or greater insight. I cannot change tomorrow to suit my designs. The great thing about faith is, when used, it never fails. I can well imagine that people who trust in God to heal them will get better and often i perceive this is the lesson that God approves of. We think cancer is sooo bad, but cancer at any stage can be cured by a word from God, its not a big deal to God while he checks the results of the "trial". Sometimes people need to slow down, hospitals are a good slow down time of closeness. This parallels what i said before about affliction bringing people closer to God or too God.
              Its all about being saved. Its all about relationship with God.

      2. Donna Suthard profile image83
        Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Deborah,
          I agree with you!.. I've worked with Nurses, and I know a Nurse who belongs to a Catholic Church who runs healing energy with her hands. (Reiki) in her church.. She and I have done Reiki in a Reiki group People get well according to their belief system.. Its MIND/BODY mix..Anger and negative thinking can destroy our health.

  3. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    I am God is a realization I came to on my own.

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So did I, but on our own we would definitely come to the conculsions taught by the various religions. Those were invented by Man(or Woman)

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Oh goodie, now the atheists have the person they have been looking for. There's the proof you folks have been wanting to see! Now would be a good time to ask him/her personally, here in the HP forum, about those starving kids, etc.

      James.

    3. Donna Suthard profile image83
      Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with you.We are all Divine sparks of God..which is pure energy..We have Divine intelligence within us..and  the whole truth about God, is pure unconditional love, and nothing more is ever needed..

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting.. we are all divine sparks of God, we have divine intelligence within us... so who is to teach us how to bring this about so we actually can use the immeasurable intellect of God?
        this pure unconditional love that we all have... where does it go when the idiot driver cuts us off in traffic? Or where did our personal anger come from when some stranger injured us. When jesus was being beaten, did he flip some person 'the bird'? would we?
        This divine spark is what God begins with and builds into a huge flaming bonfire. But who is to teach us how to make this a reality in our lives?
        We can each claim it on our own can we? Shame this obvious fact is hidden from such a huge percentage of the worlds population. Perhaps this spark or divine intelligence is dependant upon something to guide it......... like its owner, who is probably God.

        1. Donna Suthard profile image83
          Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          When  a bus driver  ran over my little  brother, many years ago,  i sent a letter of compassion to him..I was 17 years old.at the time. I tried to put myself in his place.  I knew how guilty he must have felt, in killing my brother.. I was harshly criticized for doing this, but I know this was the right thing to do.. I have noticed, that when people get angry or upset, they will almost always experience pain.. I believe anger can make you sick or even have an accident.. I believe we teach by example and by sharing our stories....Remember the Amish community, that chose to forgive the man that executed their children, and  not only that, but that they also went to help, and comfort his family. Gandhi, was seen blessing the man, that shot him, as he died.. I have chosen to forgive those people who were violent towards me, my family,  and towards my son!  I have seen much insanity in my life, but I have forgiven them all.. Its the only way, I can find Peace in my life...

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Interesting. I was hit by a bus when i 2.5 yrs young, almost lost my right leg, smashed a lot of bones. Had a pretty much normal childhood. At 35 my leg decided to attack me by way of lymphoma, blood poisoning and much swelling, indeed i was housebound for 6 yrs and at the end of all that starving on welfare. Buses are formidable opponents. I have never been moved to forgive the guy but i hold no bad towards the driver.
            I have found peace through Jesus Christ, my leg is back to 99% health, i am working for the first time since i was 35. Im 53. Ive been saved for 2 yrs on the 13th of may. I have found that God works quickly and efficiently.
            Thanks for the reply.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ________________________
              You had Lymphoma"

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                nope. lymphoma was a spell check option.
                the correct word is what i thought it was, but i spelled it wrong

                'lymph edema'
                the accumulation of lymph in soft tissue with accompanying swelling, often of the extremities: sometimes caused by inflammation, obstruction, or removal of lymph channels.
                I had this big time.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  _______
                  Yes, edema is the swelling.
                  Well I'm glad you didn't have Lymphoma, my mom died from that auto-immune cancer

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Lymph anything sucks. Its amazing how much distortion the body can take on and how eerie it looks when not in its normal form. Tumors bite.
                    Sorry for your loss. On the upside, my mom has dementia and keeps askin me the same questions weekly.... an exercise of patience indeed. One of my friends has a dad who asked... who is that lady who comes to visit? She's his daughter. I have another friend who is just about 100% blind and he says, "on a list of ailments to have, I figure i am near the top for desirability". Sickness, is well, interesting, survivors and those closest can learn much. It kinda brings people together, except when mom asks why i am not married yet for the third time this week.
                    Keep our chins up, eh.

            2. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I figured you were a relatively 'new' christian - all that zeal

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well, my first year was hell (metaphorically speaking). As one who enjoyed quite a few sins and lead a self ruled life, God had work to do. I found smoking cigs and pot just fell away. Never had a problem with drinkin but found when mixed with females, it had its purpose. I should have gotten married before i threw my sex life out the window lol hmm  So I've never felt so lonely and bored (at times). I have always been on the go and cannot seem to sit still for long periods of time, waiting on the Lord is fidgety stuff but enlightening. Guess i'm kind of a hyper guy.
                Now that much of the cleaning up work is completed in me, i am calmer now, happier, and can deal with the 'gift of singleness'. smile The journey has been tremendously hard and not without many astonishments and arggghs.
                I don't have a lot to do with 'Egypt' and have had much time to spend in the word and with God.
                Zeal sounds like a nice ribbon around the package, but payin dues.. you bet. Its hard to let go of 50 yrs of self. I wish i had done this from childhood. God, through it all has been more than wonderful.

              2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Zeal improves the peel on the fruit lol

                1. 0
                  Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  zeal or zest?

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Oops you are right -Zest lol

                    (Also a brand of soap here in the USA)

            3. Donna Suthard profile image83
              Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              brotheryochanan,  Yes!  My brother Sean, died of severe head and chest injuries. It must have been so terrifying for you..Some of us have had to go through horrific experiences in our lives.and as result, we started searching for answers.  I had a mystical experience with God, when I was 35 years old. It occurred when I chose to forgive someone, that I had perceived as a enemy. I have never such Bliss and LOVE in all my life.. I did not belong to a church. It happened as I was driving my car home...and it went on all night.. I learned for myself, that God was real.. but God was not anything like they described in the old testament, nor in many religious doctrines. God is an Energy Force of  indescribable LOVE.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Its the same love that causes God to deal with us stubborn humans. Its the same love that chastises and disciplines and it will be the same love that judges at the end of it all - for better or for worse.
                Love is never without its sorrows and existence is never without its rules
                Congrats!

  4. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    Think somebody would have to learn something if they believed they were God.

  5. Jo_Goldsmith11 profile image60
    Jo_Goldsmith11posted 5 years ago

    Hello Peter. No, my feelings about my faith comes from walking through the fires of this world and it not being able to consume me!

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      thx Jo
      I admire that - but that faith was initially taught, and you strengthed it by experience.
      My experiences have diminished it. I was taught by the nuns for 8 years and that was pure indoctrination.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Of course it was, it was catholic.
        see that for what it is, false religion

        do try again though, the graces and mercies of God are able to overcome that indoctrination.

      2. Donna Suthard profile image83
        Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Peter,  I was also taught by the nuns, and yes we know what indoctrination truly is..  When someone states  I AM.. it means they know they are a part of God.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This is why i never believe the church in general is the bride of Christ. Its the heart God is concerned about and the heart resides in individual believers not a denomination or a building. My belief is when the bride is ready it will be a few believers from here and over there and everywhere, not just the baptists or just the pentecostals. As much as i am against catholicism there may well be hearts that right before God, trapped in there lol.
          I think church is good and every believer should find one and be faithful there, just so ya all don't get me wrong on this.

          1. Donna Suthard profile image83
            Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I prefer not to belong to just one church. There is good in all beliefs, if  one practices unconditional love. I don't feel that we need  a priest, minister, or theologian,  to dictate what is right for us... Its important to listen and discern what you believe in for yourself.. There are good teachers and bad...but everyone is  a teacher....

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I agree that we do not need a Church to receive Gods grace ,but it is in our interests to meet with fellow believers for edifying and fellowship. Much in the same way people with other people over a common interest.

              That being said , I don't go along with all the trappings and traditionally man made rituals of many of the mainstream churches.

              (Some religions are so heavenly minded ,they are of no earthly use-and God abhored the self rightous lording it over anyone.

              The simplest faith and child like heart is more precious to God. smile

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Donna suthard and eagekiwi
                I completely disagree that the church is not important.
                Where does one meet fellow believers if not in the church?
                Belonging to a church keeps the christian in check, having no one to answer too or being a long wolf is problematic.
                Everyone has a gift, whats the point of keeping it to yourself?
                Church is to edify others and learn things. I think my pastor teaches wonderful things and each sunday my own experience and knowledge is added to. Church should also be a time of praise, pentecostals know this. How can the gifts be exercised if they are not practiced.. whens the last time you heard tongues and intepretation or gave a word of exhortation for the edification of all.
                You gotta be a part of church even if you have to do what i did, visit each church until ya find the one that says, HOME. I found mine in a neighboring town. When the last time anybody without a church partook of communion? as the Lord said you should.
                sorry.

              2. Donna Suthard profile image83
                Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I agree with you. Eaglekiwi and Brotheryochannan! You both have a great deal of wisdom!  Where even two or 3 is gathered its considered a church. I prefer small groups now, rather than being involved in a church, after having belonged to one for several years.. Recently, A dear friend of mine, who was the church's secretary, was discredited, after catching the assistant minister with a married man, in the church hallway in a sexual position .After reporting the incident to the chairman of the board.. She was yelled at, and a litany of hatred was targeted at her..finally she quit her position because of the hostility.
                I encouraged her to forgive them, and she did..I chose after that,  not to attend Sunday services, at this particular church but I do attend some of the great classes there, as I have many wonderful  friends. I had a Catholic upbringing, and was a practicing catholic, until I was 18..After that I  chose to think, for myself.. I did enjoy the teachings of Robert Schulleler, and Norman Vincent Peale, when I was young. I studied, Eastern thought, which is very  compatible to my way of thinking..I learned a great deal from my Native American friends, about their spiritual experiences.. and the Aborigines from Australia.  I have enjoyed my experiences with a Unitarian Church. I'm not a member though. This church is Christian, and  they are open to atheists, gays, Buddhists, pagans, and to all those who believe in God and to those who do not. These people are all members of this same church.. They invite people from all belief systems, to teach and speak to the congregations.They are humanitarian, and they  help those in need...They have a wise, open minded minister!  I also enjoy meditating in  Catholic churches.. I also attend Mass sometimes. I'm not dismissing churches as a whole, brotheryochanan. There are good teachers, for people to follow, and there are some, that have other motives.. It sounds like you have found a wonderful church.. I have had wonderful experiences with the Sufi's, and  Yogananda's self realized  groups,  I have learned a great deal, with all my wonderful friends that are Hispanic,  white, Native American, Arabic, Russian, Chinese, New age, Japanese, Greek, Pagan, ( as they call them selves) etc..Some are Catholic, some are not.. It doesn't matter what ttheir race or creed is!  I love them all.. those who believe, and those who do not.. I belong to all tribes, and all races, and that is my core belief..
                Somehow  many people have  found God, without any written teachings, long before the white man came along.. They learned through their inner and outer experiences, as to what worked, and what didn't

  6. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    For myself" I don't want to die.

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good luck trying to stop it

    2. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      death for the Christian is referred to as sleep.
      when we go to sleep we have faith that we will rise again in the morning. The morning represents a new day, glorious beginnings.
      Sleep is also restful and beneficial and good in that it enables us to experience the new day.
      Sleep is an end to the conflict of the day.
      When resurrected into the afterlife no one will say ( who is Saved) "man i did not want that sleep".

  7. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    Ray, call me aloof, but based on that take --the self-- and no god required, one would conclude this:

    "Fine, my life is my own. I make of it what I choose, because in the end, everything I did was pointless. When the breath in me ends, so I end, never to be seen or heard from again. The very fact I or any human exists is irrelevant. Therefore, in truth, my existence was nothing and certainly without any value. I came with nothing, leave with nothing. nothing gained, nothing lost. Nothing to progress to, nothing to leave behind --because that would be futile. No past, no future. My legacy, memory of me to anyone has no value also, because every other self out there could care less that I even existed."

    Is this what you are saying? If so, why?

    James.

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Pointless if you have no purpose. Yes.
      What's wrong with that? It's acceptance of the present aging process. Nothing more. You want to read more into through mystic reasoning, then feel free. You only do yourself harm, by negating self responsibility. Showing others you live with blinders on.
      Existence is never irrelevant.
      Maybe your life has no value? I don't know. My life has value, because it's purpose isn't about me and the meaning for my existence is in place. I'm sorry you think yourself to be low or of no value.
      Yes, when you born you came with only bare body parts. When you die, you will leave what behind, that which, you leave with nothing?
      Interesting. Too bad what you describe in the above statement doesn't actually occur, if one sets their own purpose of life.
      This is foolish.
      Well, that would be your own fault. No one else.
      I think I cleared this up. I used enough words to explain it. Enjoy.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well, that was weird, as you didn't really answer, just pulled apart my query and added a few sound bites.

        Seriously, what value or purpose is relevant if the self has nothing to look forward to except the "I exist therefore I am" concept? Again, adding the no-gods required as reason enough to form the self worth concept.

        In short what is the purpose of human existence? Just "to be" and make more "to be's"? This is where I am not seeing your position clearly.

        James.

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ironically that's all you saw. Not surprising.
          Again, purpose in life gives meaning, which washes out "I exist therefore I am". Having a purpose beyond self is what is required. Thought that is what I said, but in other words. Oh well.
          Self worth is achievable, it is the path to get to it, which is the problem.
          Live life, be responsible. In other words, create your own purpose for living. Having a purpose beyond self, brings esteem and confidence, and eventually love for self. The actions will show others that you love and know how to love.
          Well, hopefully this has been cleared up.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Somewhat. And thanks for doing so.
            But this is the conclude I come to then:

            Within this "life/existence" anyone can create, find, desire or  "achieve" some form of this action (purpose). I think that is a given. However, without the application of purpose within, what is the actual Purpose of existence? To say humans are purposing to be a good human "just cuz", doesn't appear very rational, as one could aspire to not be a good person "just cuz" and be equally validated --as they are simply purposing their existence the same as any other and justifying their actions as their purpose in life. Human life, then, would actually have no purpose --since once the duration is complete (meaning you die) that purpose ends "forever". Whatever transpired between is ultimately irrelevant. Let's face it: you are not going to remember it, and there is no judgment or such things to look forward to AND equally, no one else will truly remember either, as they are going to not exist at some point, just as you or I.

            If this is the case, what is so wrong then with people "believing" in a god? As it is pointless anyway, in spite of them purposing "to be" while they exist?

            As said, they enter with nothing, leave the same. The in between really would not matter after all. That would make humans the equivalent of say a plant. Only difference --the human is conscious of that inevitability.

            James.

            1. Cagsil profile image84
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It provides people the opportunity to escape fear. Not to mention, the purpose would be higher than the human species, which would look upon the human species as nothing. Placing no value on actual living people.
              Someone sets their purpose to serve a higher authority, then they are in essence, irresponsible about living life.
              The in between is "how" you live eternally. You make an impact on the world, so you are remembered.

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ::It provides people the opportunity to escape fear.
                I am of the mind to think believing in a god manifests more fear than anything else. (IMO).

                :: Not to mention, the purpose would be higher than the human species, which would look upon the human species as nothing. Placing no value on actual living people.
                But that is what you are saying anyway --humans are nothing without this 'purpose' in and of themselves.


                :: Someone sets their purpose to serve a higher authority, then they are in essence, irresponsible about living life.
                How so? The moral character of a human, who generally aspires to live a good life and better his/her fellow man, notes someone or something to answer to. They must have some acute form of responsibility, no? Else with no moral authority --accept to the self, we end up with anarchy.


                :: The in between is "how" you live eternally. You make an impact on the world, so you are remembered.
                So, the true purpose is ultimately to be remembered. But by who or what? I mean, like I said, everyone is in the same boat. It may take 10, 100, even 1,000 years, but eventually everyone will be forgotten...



                James.

                1. Cagsil profile image84
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I guess that depends on "what type" of fear? It varies from person to person.
                  Without a purpose, I would say that a person wouldn't be nothing, because even being a wasteful person is something, helps the human species grow, on a positive note.
                  Actually, one only has to answer to oneself. Hold oneself accountable. No other authority actually required. It's unfortunate, not many bother, much less know that they should. Being good is a choice.
                  Acute form? I would say that they understand being morally responsible. Sure. It shows that they understand morals, because their actions prove it.
                  I guess that would depend on the impact, now wouldn't it?

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    That's quite a comfy approach to someone born in America.
                    Now lets take your comfy approach and apply it to the rest of the world. Places less fortunate than your own country. Lets apply it to people who are addicted to alcohol or some other drug. Lets apply it to people who were abused as children. Lets apply it to the power hungry overlord who is obsessed with their self, costing others their own selves. Lets apply it to the starving dahlete in india who born into a 'cast system' and have no hope of upward mobility in society.
                    Your tidy wisdom really only applies to those who live in a nice set of circumstances.
                    Self buckles when faced with what it cannot control. Self gets desperate when it is hungry or cannot get air to breathe. Self want what others have and self will often connive to obtain what it desires in spite of any obstacles, if survival is in the forefront, survival for some is a limousine or a quick bank robbery.
                    Self is the trouble with mankind. This is why God seeks to override self.

  8. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    A bit of my philosophy has always been, when I die if there is nothing, then what's to worry. If I find I still exist, then have to go from there.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      And if the something that exists is something you are not prepared for... What if certain conducts or awareness are credentials?
      What if someone owns it and you do not know them?

      Have you been to a foreign land.. transgressed a law and could only plead ignorance and still wound up in jail? Couldn't speak the language.
      This gamble is fine if apathy dictates the result.

    2. Jefacity profile image60
      Jefacityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      don't worry; be happy

  9. Peter Owen profile image61
    Peter Owenposted 5 years ago

    Just so I know, where did mankind come from in your mind?

  10. Hyphenbird profile image95
    Hyphenbirdposted 5 years ago

    Understanding God is easy, just read His instruction manual, the Bible. God is love and love is a wonderful quality in humans, even more so in Him.

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Hypehn - the point at hand is that you were taught to believe in the bible. If you were the only person on earth and picked up/read the bible, would you believe in the same things as you do today?

      1. Donna Suthard profile image83
        Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, God being God, would never be limited to one book, or one idea especially any book that is so conflicting in its fearful teachings.  It would be truly sad,  for one to believe they truly do die...and are forgotten..only bodies can be destroyed...Are you not more than your body?

        1. Peter Owen profile image61
          Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi - I have to come back to the intial purpose of this thread which is just to say I don't know. And I don't think anyone else knows either.
          Will we ever know - I don't know.

          1. Cagsil profile image84
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You don't know what you are? Or who you are? Is that what you are saying?

            1. Peter Owen profile image61
              Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No. I think I know who I am. I do believe there is a God but that we know nothing about God. That is how I started this thread.
              Your points that it is about self and no need for a God do not mean there is no God.I don't know and neither do you, neither does anyone.

              1. Cagsil profile image84
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                If life can be understood and life can be lived without a god, then it makes no sense to believe one exists.

                1. Peter Owen profile image61
                  Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  fine, but then you agree that you just don't know?

                2. Peter Owen profile image61
                  Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  fine, but then you agree that you just don't know?

                3. brotheryochanan profile image61
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes This Life can be lived without God, obviously... but the Next Life Cannot.
                  If all a person wants is This Life and what ThisLife has to offer than this 'diminished expectation theology' is perfect.
                  BUT
                  I have found the life that God offers is so much more abundantly rich and wonderful that my previous life paled in comparison.

      2. Hyphenbird profile image95
        Hyphenbirdposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have not been taught by any religious organization. I have come to know this truth through my own investigations, readings, and studies. Religion and true Christianity are much different entities.

    2. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      well the bible isn't clear cut - if it were, there wouldn't be so many different sects

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The bible is written in such a way as to make people Seek Him. If it were all laid out like a childrens book, how would people then react? differently?
        Personally i love the revelations, connecting scripture, discovering things. This is what keeps mankind entertained. The obvious becomes boring and the easy, tedious. But the challenge is what makes mankind, interested.
        We can reverse engineer all that God has created and think ourselves wise, but of heavenly things? How are we to know.
        This is why God makes us search him out. We are supposed to lean on him because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

        1. pay2cEM profile image91
          pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Then I guess everyone with an available Bible hit the spiritual jackpot, unlike those poor shlubs who lived before the Bible was written, assembled, translated, printed, distributed, etc. I guess God didn't care much for revealing anything to them, right?



          I suspect that they WOULD react differently. If "God" spelled out clearly his intentions for mankind, you wouldn't have 35,000 different denominations of Christians arguing with each other over what the hell their text means. Really, what sense would it make for a loving parent to articulate clearly to their child exactly what is expected of them? That's airy-fairy New Age hokum. Next you'll be trying to feed us some ridiculous line like parents are supposed to protect and care for their children as well! Well I'm not about to stoop to that. Since I learned everything I need to know about parenting from Yahweh, I grant my 4-year old Free Will to decide to play in the street in the hope that she will be struck by the ice cream truck, just so I might awe her with my CPR, head-wound bandaging, and broken leg-setting skills.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That all sounds lovely BUT you miss a couple of points. Doctrine is not paramount. God does not work with people because they believe 100% spot on. God works with people because they believe in Him.
            If we ask, ill repeat that because unless i spell this out right you might think i said something else... If we ask God, He will answer, eventually.
            God could give all things right now and be done with everything in a matter of moments, but you might not have been born and neither would your or my life continue. Is that worth it? Yes, but i want my life and unborn people want theirs too. When all this is over it will be all too soon, but the next will be glorious also.
            You will always get different beliefs no matter how clearly something is spelled out. This is human nature. All it takes are a few with comprehension problems or somebody to not like something and they change it or make an excuse why that doesn't work. Perhaps to your mind and our fleshly understandings being told clearly and succinctly works, but the things of God are not our ways. He strives to change people and make them dependant upon Him. This is why he does things the way he does. Why does he do that.. because the next phase of life will require all that He has taught us here.
            You can tell your child not to do something and then later you may find yourself saying, i thought i told you not to do that. Adults know not to do things but still do. Learning, Gods way is not just hearing or reading, its experiencing.
            I enjoy your simplicity of carnal thought but Gods ways are spiritual and intricate and yet, to Christians, simple.

            Those poor schlubs who lived before the bible. Noah preached while he made the ark, i am sure adam had some things to say about the reality of God. IF you want to talk about the people way way off far over there, well if they have a genuine innocence about not knowing God then we suppose they are off the hook, but to partake of the eternal life that God offers, i will let God judge that.

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ___________________________

            If I am wrong, I apologize, but...
            Are you saying that God allows bad things so he can rescue and have people be in awe of him?

            1. pay2cEM profile image91
              pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not saying that at all. I'm satirizing the Bible, which DOES say that about God. If there is a God, and He/She/It is loving, then I have no doubts that He would find such a practice abominable. I was being sarcastic to illustrate why I believe the Bible has as much to do with God as the Harry Potter books.

        2. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          this lunatic read the bible. Seems he didn't get the hidden messages.  That kind of violence is in the bible though

          http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne … stley.html

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            SO What.
            By their fruit you shall know them.

            We have seen others in here whose agenda was to only publish the killings in the bible.. what was their motive?

            This finger pointing avails nothing.
            It all comes down to what are you/we/us doing with the message.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              'so what' ??!?

              you gloss over the murder and mayhem in the bible.

              http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

              so, did king David have rotten fruit?

              There are plenty of psychos for god out there that have murdered in god's name

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So what.

                Obviously some people can do no better huh. (just sayin)
                I see the same things out there in the world that you do and i am not affected by them. I see people who are just wrong and when i see that i know its because their self is on their throne and they are not subjecting nor are subjected to God.
                Its that plain and simple. I am amazed how idiotic these false preachers and disciples can be, perhaps a need to justify their own failings? I do not fully know, but i know that if i am to stay on the right track i need to seek God as often as is possible, not to say that i could do these same things regardless of my personal situation or even my childhood experiences. As i said before, God needs to teach, we need to listen. God needs to clean us up and we need to be obedient, if not, the person who fails to respond properly may well indeed become somewhat psychotic. As Paul said, "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".  Everything is in God, but what part of our selves or our lives do we not want God to touch? I cannot judge, but its a good example of what not to be like.

                King David is amazing. He made some bad mistakes but he made some equally extravagant repentances. God said David is a man after my own heart. Yes, God, but David did this and that, he had a man killed for cryin out loud! But read how David repented and its this repentance that, I think, was seeking after Gods own heart. People have their shortcomings, idiosyncrasies. God punished David for killing Huzziah but God applauded David for his sincere repentance. David never repeated the incidents, unlike some christians, who repent and then do that thing again. David actually turned from his way. David made mistakes and David first coined the phrase, "against thee only (God) have i sinned", and when we look at sin from this angle we will be after Gods own heart and better Christians.

      2. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        we have done the different sect thing before. the catholic church in India is not a completely different denomination than the catholic church in Italy, which is not a completely different denomination than the catholic church in Minnesota. Catholism is not christian at all and that lops a whack of denominations off the total... there are 123 different denoms and it goes something like this to name a few.. baptist, pentecostal, reform, Anglican etc.
        I know people love to say there are 34,000 different denominations but it is just a wrong understanding of what makes a denomination.
        If as a company i have offices in every state in america, i do not have 50 completely different companies, i have one company and 50 offices.

  11. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    I think I am already forgotten.

  12. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    As always, Ray, very interesting.

    James.

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good to know.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The more grounded one gets in God the less one becomes grounded in self.
      I did not find this very interesting at all.

      1. pay2cEM profile image91
        pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I suppose the whole world then should just stand idly by in anticipation of your next Formal Declarations as to which ideas you personally find interesting or not? And then even if one were to find it exceptionally interesting, we should scrap it in favor of your personal tastes?

        The more grounded one gets in ANYTHING that isn't oneself leads to less grounding of oneself. This is hardly a revolutionary observation, but it might go far to explain why so many religionists appear to be grounded in mystical fantasy land. : )

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          really....
          Of course my statement did not go out into every facet of life where few absolutes reign without conflict. I said... God... and i meant to keep the discussion there. If you cannot discuss my post then please do not drag it to your fantasy land.

          1. pay2cEM profile image91
            pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry your feelings got hurt by having it pointed out to you that one of your observations wasn't quite a "deep" to the forum as it maybe sounded in your head. We can just talk about God for now.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              i fail to see how you showed your point.
              God some examples of peoples, umm, hobbies shall we say, how they do not elaborate on their self nature.
              Are you saying because people study jung they are above their self nature?
              is the doctor a doctor to help or pay the bills? What exactly was your point.
              Aside from the first paragraph that shows your feelings are hurt and i skipped over... the second was out of context...

  13. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    "And if the something that exists is something you are not prepared for." Yes had a Christian friend died not along and I don't think he was prepared.
    "What if certain conducts or awareness are credentials?" Great line.
    "This gamble is fine if apathy dictates the result." Me thinks your gamble is as great as mine.
    "when I die if there is nothing, then what's to worry. If I find I still exist, then have to go from there.". Is a fall-back position and not necessarily the one I hold.

  14. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    That sums it up pretty well pay2.

    Curious to know if you are a "failed" religionist like myself? smile

    1. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I prefer to call it "retired."

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        or just tired

  15. Mikeydoes profile image80
    Mikeydoesposted 5 years ago

    None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless. At least in my case. I have no use for it and all it does is cause conflict, so I choose to stray away from it.

    So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      _____________
      Why waste your own time by reading this thread and responding.

      You people who claim that others waste your time are delusional,
      no one can waste your time unless you let it happen.,

      1. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        If believers lobby to get creationism taught in school or attempt to stop evolution from being taught in school, they are forcing that upon society and wasting everyone's time.

        So, there are those who are indeed taking the time to make sure they don't "let it happen". smile

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ___________________
          Oh, I've never done that and didn't know others did.

          Evolution is certainly a fact. Anyone denying it is kind of...well you know.

          Hugs and kisses tongue

          1. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Btw, you look marvelous!

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God exists whether you believe it or not.

          And if you believe its all fantasy and nonsense ,why do people preaching or sharing about it cause you so much insecurity and/or evoke such strong feelings.

          Is is not a case of the lady doth protest too much I wonder?

          1. pay2cEM profile image91
            pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            In this case, I think the protest is valid. Nobody who disbelieves in God gets equally offended at the idea of Santa or the Tooth Fairy, but then nobody's lobbying to get Christmas-Presents-Come-From-Santa taught in school...which would obviously be a supreme waste of time. The strong feelings come from the fact that religious people who can't demonstrate that any of their beliefs are true are trying to shove those belies down everyone else's throat. We would be equally strong in our opposition to any group of people lobbying to have the Stork Theory of where baby's come from taught in biology classes.

            There's a reason why the US is constantly and increasingly lagging behind the rest of the developed nations in science: namely, they're either being taught religion instead of science in science classes, or else all their energy is going to fight against religion being taught in science classes instead of just learning science. We get pissed off when our kids are getting dumbed down and left behind over superstitious and ignorant people's belief system.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What does santa and the tooth fairy have to do with God? Santa and the tooth fairy are obviously man made inventions. To compare an obviously man made invention to God is just not right, its like saying that the paper clip is the same as a staple, which it is not (another version of oranges and apples comparison) the staple is far more effective than the paper clip.

              As far as dumbing down goes. Thank your government, who realized that educating people was not in the governments best interest and economics couldn't support everyone earning 100 - 200 thousand per year and the baser jobs which really cause society to function would become undesirable in the light of higher paying jobs. Education is after all, how much one applies oneself to the problem.
              Remember when phonics was part of the curriculum? Now its been taken out and is sold as a separate learn at home study. Phonics is integral to the english language.
              You blame religion on dumbing down, thats a crock.

              1. Beelzedad profile image59
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, just like gods are inventions of men. Funny how you can't understand one invisible entity has just as much validity as another.



                Nonsense. Your examples are fallacious. You are comparing two different things in reality that are completely unrelated. Your god, santa and the tooth fairy are all related; invisible entities.  smile

              2. pay2cEM profile image91
                pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And one could just as easily argue that God is too. There's as much evidence for either: none.




                You're taking what I said out of context. I wasn't blaming religion on the dumbing down of every facet of the education system, I was blaming it specifically on America's increasing lagging behind other developed countries in science.

          2. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            OK, show Him to us.  No trickery, OK?  Just validate your statement.  Please show us why something that is only in your imagination exists.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No I asked God for proof and he answered believe in me...over time I did,that is  exactly what I did ,I showed myself to be sincere and He revealed more and more.


              I don't have to prove anything to anyone,why on earth do you think I have too?

              I didnt expect anyone else to prove anything, I looked for myself ,because I was interested.

              1. pay2cEM profile image91
                pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And it is exactly this mindset that allows such a proliferation of divergent religious models. Everybody claims they don't need any external validation to support their belief system, but that everyone else's belief system is invalid because it doesn't have external validation. What's good for the gander is good for the goose, no? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

                Christians love telling every other religious group that they're wrong, and that they "know" this based on internal conviction (and nothing else), while telling those same people that they can't rely on internal conviction to determine the correct path to God.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Where did I say -My way was right for everyone wink

                  I think you have jumped to conclusions and maybe stereotyped me. (IMO)

                  1. pay2cEM profile image91
                    pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I apologize if you have your own personal religion that allows for everyone else to be right. I was (wrongly?) assuming you were Christian, and thus held to the Christian tenet that the only way to God is through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ. Since this is what the Bible unequivocally teaches, a Christian must either renounce this teaching from Jesus himself, or embrace it and acknowledge that everyone else is wrong. Those are your only 2 options. (Or, I suppose you could argue that Jesus never really said this - that the Gospel writers interpolated it later - but that's a slippery slope to go down, as it calls into question the validity of everything in the Bible.)

          3. thisisoli profile image65
            thisisoliposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What makes you think we 'protest' because it makes us insecure? Some people get emotional because of the amount of harm relgion does in some parts of the world, and many parts of America.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I agree that much evil has been done in the name of God.

              I also  believe evil has been committed because the person committing the atrocities had nothing but evil on his mind.

              Equally much good has been achieved by believers and non-believers alike.

              I conclude therefore that the heart of man can be desperately wicked.

              The God I worship is all about love


              It does show insecurity when anyone mocks,critises or disrespects another human in my opinion.

              1. Donna Suthard profile image83
                Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I agree with you Eaglekiwi,   Insecurity is another word for fear and when people argue and insist they are right, they are in a state of fear..The wise person, doesn't continue to argue with them..but allows them to believe as they wish...and gives them only love!

            2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I apologise ,you don't all protest ,that was a sweeping statement-sorry.

              Many do in this forum however.

              My point was ,why protest ,if in someones opinion it doesnt exist?

              For example ,my neighbour thinks the purple elephants he prays too will give him peace and joy.

              Do I worry myself about it??( believing purple elephants don't exist) -No!

              Why dont I worry ?

              Because what I dont believe exists ,cant ever hurt me! wink

            3. Donna Suthard profile image83
              Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That is very understandable.. God is not about forcing any religious beliefs, upon others..Its not about religion, its about listening to each other, and healing the illusions of separation  that exist between all groups.. It is not loving and kind, to teach people that they are sinful,  guilty and their going to hell..or that their bad.. People have been executed for the spiritual teachings. Jesus taught, that we are to love one another, and to love our enemy..and to forgive each other...Jesus was persecuted for teaching only love,  and performing miracles of healing..but he never taught that he was a Victim nor did he believe in judging others. He understood, what others could not.. He did not come to establish a church, but to teach brotherly love..and he taught that death is not real...We are eternally spirit first, and we will always live, and everyone will eventually  will go home..

          4. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            lol Thor or Zeus? Which one?



            Funny how believers forget so quickly and easily when it suits them.



            Religions continue to do everything in their power to destroy mankind. Not protesting enough, actually. smile

            1. Donna Suthard profile image83
              Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Its your choice to believe in Beezlebub, the tooth fairy or  an idol!

      2. Mikeydoes profile image80
        Mikeydoesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Never did I say you or anyone else was wasting my time. I have no problem sacrificing my time to lend my thoughts. But to spend years of my life on religion would certainly have been a waste of my time. Along with many of the other things that I have done. There is nothing delusional about anything I said. And I am not apart of the "you people" group you so rudely put me in. I am my own person.

        All of our time is being wasted and slowed and limited, and there is nothing I can do about it at this moment. So I really can care less, but as the world turns people will spend more time on their own lives and less time on religion. Although religion is good for some, it ultimately is causing massive amounts of conflict and is not needed for human-kind to prosper. I can go as far as to say religion is causing crime and for years has gotten millions upon millions of people killed.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ______________
          So you didn't write this?
          "None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless".

          Saying,"You people who claim" is rude?

          And yet we who believe in God are called idiots, stupid, fools, religionists.

          1. Mikeydoes profile image80
            Mikeydoesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            We are just finding out what Atoms are made out of. We are just finding out about our universe and solar system. We have technologies that are capable of finding out all of the secrets that have plagued our ancestors for millions of years. We can clearly see past the clouds to notice our praying is very insignificant. This interests and intrigues me much more than religion. I, however, NEVER tell anyone to stop believing and do think that religion is great for some people. Also in that same paragraph you quoted me on, it is clear that I say it is my opinion and that I am lending my opinion on the matter.

            I love sports, it also is a very huge waste of time. You are just looking for a fight and taking everything I say out of context.

            1. Donna Suthard profile image83
              Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That is so true!! Our country was built  on religious freedom...thats why the colonists broke away from England, because of religious persecution.. No one has to ever justify themselves to others.. Our forefathers found it perfectly acceptable to  say God!!  I feel compassion for those who don't believe in God, but thats their right!

            2. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sir, You don't know me and I don't know you, but we all debate on these forums from time to time. I usually come here to share.

              You SEEM, by your response to be over sensitive and easy to anger.
              I asked you a simple question in response to a statement you made and now you're accusing me of wanting to fight.

              I'll ask this time, Please don't accuse me of something based on your feeling and response.

              If I had known that it doesn't take much for you to feel threatened I would have never responded.

              But you did say we waste your time by writing about religion.

              Here is where you said it.

              I Quote
              "None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless. At least in my case. I have no use for it and all it does is cause conflict, so I choose to stray away from it.

              ****So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?"****

              End Quote.

              You said OUR so that includes you. We waste your time.
              This is the link to your post.

              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632533

              And I responded
              Quote

              "Why waste your own time by reading this thread and responding.

              You people who claim that others waste your time are delusional,
              no one can waste your time unless you let it happen.,"

              End Quote

              And here is the link to my post.
              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632565

              At first you got offend because I said "you people"

              Link to your post
              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632889

              How vicious can I be to say "you people" How vile I am.

              So you are an island and not part of any mode of people?

              I am not religious, because: I believe in everything.
              That includes evolution. If it's under the sun, I believe it. Of course I studied under the Jewish Priests in Savyon, Israel..so I am Jewish, but it doesn't waste my time.
              I know how to read the scripture, the mysteries, the codes, everything and it's fun and I like to share what I get out of it.

              You are being rude TO ME for some reason. So just skip over all my posts because I'm not going to stop posting I receive a lot of email from people, thanking me for the info. I give.
              .
              You're the one wanting to fight because of not being able to understand what I write.

              1. Mikeydoes profile image80
                Mikeydoesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You forget that you quoted me and took what I said out of context. I know nothing about you and when posting I was not posting to you originally. From that point on our conversation was already in shambles. You already had your opinion on what I think, but I surely did not explain myself thoroughly enough. But as far as I am concerned you have no reason to even try me. Because what I said was purely opinion, which does have a lot of merit to it. Since no one knows for sure what has created us.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ____________________
                  You said this which is not out of context, It says what it says

                  "***So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?"****"

                  I post spiritual comments and from scripture, so yes you were indirectly speaking to all of us who do.

                  1. Mikeydoes profile image80
                    Mikeydoesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You quoted that and didn't answer it, and still have little to no understanding of what I am talking about. Taking 1 sentence out of a whole paragraph makes the words have way less meaning. I will go ahead and let you think what you want, doesn't bother me in the least bit. I know what I said, and it does not match up with whatever you are trying to argue with me over.

                    Once again you fail to realize that my point is, not only is Religion a waste of time, but so is anything and everything we do. And that is a general statement. Other things including video games, sports, anything! What you spend your time is entirely up to you, and I have no right to change it. Unless you were a terrorist or a threat to people, which clearly is not the case.

                    Our understanding of the universe and atoms is growing exponentially, and from that standpoint it is clear we may or may not be able to find out something spiritual, or maybe we are just another bacteria that has a possibility to spread to different worlds and galaxies eventually. The possibilities are truly endless. With this being said I will repeat myself. The title of this thread is "Maybe None of Us Understand God" I was agreeing with this statement, we don't.

                    Instead of picking a fight, ask me to clarify and don't take 1 sentence out of context at a time.

  16. Peter Owen profile image61
    Peter Owenposted 5 years ago

    I still don't know why non- believers go after believers with such venom. Isn't it sufficient to say no one "knows", but many people are comforted by their belief in a God. Doesn't concept of free will apply to all?

    1. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It does, and you're absolutely right. The problem is that the people non-believers go after so voraciously are those not content to let their personal beliefs be personal. It's the people who are trying to affect social, legal, and educational policies that effect EVERYONE that rub people the wrong way.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I was just reminded that prayer in the school was a normal event instituted without any hassle at all. It came from a time where the bible was very much more prevalently followed. The bible was a book read by people everywhere and God was something that people did not yell at nor harangue. The playing field of godliness was prevalent in society.
        And now a few disgruntled people want it removed. So as not to offend these protestors against prayer in school, this abomination became a rule. Prayer was removed.
        Squeaky, whiny wheel gets the grease eh.
        Godless times? or just a few irritants?

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Once again, you continue to forget about all the other religions in the world and only focus on your own personal religion, which you can't even find agreement with other believers.

          It's hilarious to observe you butting heads with other Christians and then complain about prayers being removed from schools. smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I appreciate that you envy me enough to talk when you have no idea what you are talking about in your misconstrued way. Its flattering, but really...

            Christians will always be at odds. Pride is a big threat to Christians, scripture is designed to also keep us humble. There is so much to study and learn. I get to spend lots of time in the word and others do not. I question the standard beliefs as taught by the church, some have not. I tend to lean toward the side of caution, some walk the line... its all good though. I walk the walk for me and that is not the walk others should walk. Its a personal relationship and that's what makes it personal, its different for all.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              And, you wonder why the world has so many problems, conflicts and wars. It's nice to see that you acknowledge that.



              Notice that it doesn't work.



              No, it's a conflict between your personal beliefs and everyone else. smile

    2. dingdondingdon profile image60
      dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Never seen an atheist on this forum attack so viciously and angrily as the Christians and Muslim do, actually. The atheists are pretty chilled out and just want to debate, but the theists seem to take even this as an insult and get very upset and angry.

      1. Peter Owen profile image61
        Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't really agree. The non-believers are the ones who start name calling and denigrating the person for his beliefs.

        1. dingdondingdon profile image60
          dingdondingdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That may be true in your experience, but it isn't in mine - and I read religious debates and discussions a lot.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Too true Peter ,generally speaking I find many atheists to be wound up so tight ,and frustrated ,always ready to unwind randomly.

            Even if they dont want God ,seems to me they need to learn how to relax smile

        2. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Not really, Peter.

          Most atheists attack the beliefs themselves. If a believer then takes up the cause and uses those beliefs to threaten others, that's a different story. smile

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        _________________________
        That's because you have only been here for 3 months. It is a lot better than it used to be.

        People got so angry with each other, that many were banned over and over

  17. secularist10 profile image90
    secularist10posted 5 years ago

    God is defined as an infinite being. The human brain is finite.

    Can god be understood by the human brain?

    Can a finite number be divided by infinity?

  18. qwark profile image62
    qwarkposted 5 years ago

    Fear and superstition are the foundation of the creation of the concept: "gods."

    Fear and superstition are eliminated by "education" and an acceptance of reality.

    Logically then, if we could eliminate fear and superstition by "educating" all, the "illogical" concept: "god/s" should then, also, be eliminated.

    Unfortunately, early childhood indoctrination frustrates the "indoctrinated's" ability to overpower pre-programmed response and then respond logically to reality.

    The result of early childhood "brainwashing" can be demonstrated by understanding why a young person would strap a bomb to itself, walk into a crowded bistro with the intent of murdering innocent folk who do not believe in its illogical, preconceived concept of metaphysical reality, and push the button while screaming in praise of its imagined god.

    The constituents all 3 major monotheistic groups are guilty of this type of abusive, early childhood indoctrination.

    There is no possibility that in the lifetime of contemporary man, as he presently exists, that he can overcome the dire results of human immaturity and universal ignorance.

    His "near future" is bleak.

    Qwark

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sometimes that theory is correct.

      I can only speak for myself and dont see much point in generalising.

      I dont love God because Im afraid of him or my future.

      I love Him because He is ALL good smile

      1. qwark profile image62
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        G'mornin' Eagle:

        Can you define, for me, this "god thing" you speak of, in a form other than opinion?

        If you can't, opinions are still only worth about a "dime-a-dozen," so, respectfully, don't bother to respond.

        I'll accept your "silence" as the "fact" that you can only offer an opinion.

        Have a great Tuesday.   smile:

        Qwark

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Qwark it is not up to you to tell me when to speak or even how to think.
          Surely you are not trying to dictate.

          Thats fine if you file my comments under opinion,but the fact is Im convinced ,and thats enough for now wink

          I could also provide a long list of instances where I know God has manifested to me ,but what would be the point.
          Those things are for edification (building up) not for tearing down.

          I am equally sure you do not always speak fact Qwark ,but thats ok with me. Takes many trees to make a forest smile

          The power of God is for all who seek Him with an open mind and an open heart.

          But seriously ,do you want to find Him?

          Lets assume you don't-then you wont find Him ,simple as that really.

          To Your Best Life Qwark.

          Ekiwi smile

          1. qwark profile image62
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            smile: Eagle:

            My goodness!

            I don't think you read my comment with understanding.

            Of course It "...is not up to you (me) to tell me when to speak or even how to think."

            All I said was that if you could only offer an opinion, you need not provide an answer.

            That's "dictating?" I think not.

            Now, you made this comment which I think you didn't consider the meaning of before you posted it. Here it is:

            "I could also provide a long list of instances where I know God has manifested to me...."

            To "know" is to perceive (to become aware of something through the senses) exactly/totally.

            If you could "KNOW" this god thing, you would be unique in that you would be capable of "knowing" that which cannot be known.

            If you "KNEW" this "god thing," there'd be no reason you could only define it in the form of an opinion. You'd be able to define "it" and base your definition of "it" on "fact." You aren't able to do that.

            You are correct when you say the I don't always speak, using fact.

            In the case of you not "KNOWING" this god thing, I can post that as "fact" and you "KNOW" I'm right (that is if you speak and understand English.)

            Do I want to find "Him?"

            Who/what is "Him?"

            Once you can define  "Him" to me in a form other than your opinion and "it" becomes factual, sure! I'm always open to meeting reality square-in-the-face!

            Pls Eagle, introduce me to the "reality" of "it."

            Qwark  smile:

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The reality is staring you right in the face Qwark!

              You ,me , we are the living reality of a Creator.

              Our unique bodies ,biologically-Intelligently created.

              Billion of inoformation contained in one egg or one spermatooza too small to be seen by the naked eye!

              Is that not an amazing fact in itself?

              The list is long and almost endless.

              1. qwark profile image62
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                smile: Eagle:

                You needn't have answered.

                Didn't I say that if all ya have is an opinion to offer me, don't bother?

                Of course I did and for goodness sakes, that "Opinion" is nauseously trite.

                Oh well, I guess, like you, I'll never KNOW "Him."  smile:

                Qwark

                1. Druid Dude profile image60
                  Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Uhhh, qwark...being from another planet and all, I think DNA is more than Eagle's opinion. Mathematics proves the perfection of creation. Isn't that like blowing up a chicken ranch with an atomic bomb and ending up with Colonel Sanders

                  1. qwark profile image62
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hello Druid:

                    Why are you offering another opinion Druid?

                    Your words.

                    "...the perfection of creation."

                    Perfect creation? That concept is far beyond my ability to consider.

                    Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but my impression has always been that "perfection" cannot be attained. Where did I get lost?

                    About "blowing up a chicken ranch?" I dunno I guess I'm just too logical to conceive of it and the possibility of the "Colonel Sanders" concept.

                    Golly! I guess I'm just an old lost soul spinning in a whirlpool of living, human idiocy.

                    DNA?DNA?...."god thing?" whew! I'm slowing down! you get the connection and I don't.

                    How the hell did you get here from "another planet?"

                    Damn! I'm losing it!   smile:

                    Qwark

                2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Perhaps I didnt post just for your eyes only Qwark wink

                  I am sure their are more curious minds out there too!

                  1. qwark profile image62
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    smile: Eagle:

                    I hope the curious are also logical.

                    Logic and religion are at opposite ends of the "reality" continuum.

                    One day there may be an educated human population that, in toto, can live peacefully and in concert without a need for "fairytale" gods.

                    Gods which were created by human immaturity and naivety.

                    You and I won't be here so we have to cross our fingers and toes and "hope" that one day man may evolve to become a successful form of life.

                    There's nothing else we can do!

                    Que sara, sara! (spelling?)

                    Qwark

  19. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    Let us read a passage from Das Kapital everyday.

  20. prettydarkhorse profile image63
    prettydarkhorseposted 5 years ago

    Your relationship with your God is personal and it is my own opinion, that you understand God, if you use your standard of your own knowledge in GOD. Don't use your measure of understanding God and apply them to other people, and thus such you say that they don't understand GOD. It is subjective based upon the laws of each churches or your own personal relationship with GOD if you are a believer.

  21. Disturbia profile image61
    Disturbiaposted 5 years ago

    None of us has the ability to understand God.  God is beyond our simple human understanding.

    1. Donna Suthard profile image83
      Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      God provides answers, if we so listen.

      1. Druid Dude profile image60
        Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Nintendo is now the new opiate of the masses. It is said, To know yourself is to know God. Why do you suppose that was said? Know the psyche of mankind, and you will know the psyche of God. Why? Most of you probably have no clue what would terrify you to the point of death, nor do most of you know what would make you stand up and fight with no regard to your personal safety. Many probably don't even realize how much a product of your own mind you are, for no one sees you the way you see you. How do we really know if, while our own scientists are staring into a microscope at some one celled creature, if something beyond our perceptions isn't staring down through it's microscope at our cellular simplicity. Does physics or quantum mechanics rule it out? The answer is: It can't. Plain and simple. Science wants us to accept that they know what is or has happened billions of light years away and in the past when they aren't even sure what lies a mile beneath the waves at this very moment. Darwin equally can't explain why we still have an appendix, nor when we can expect not to.

        1. CuresRiches profile image61
          CuresRichesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wouldn't it be easier to speculate whether or not Silvio Berlusconi is the devil?

  22. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    According to the Jewish Tanakh


    The Tanakh was revealed by God to the prophets of ancient Israel in Hebrew. Hebrew was not just the language of the ancient Israelites but the original language of all mankind and the language used by God himself during creation.

    The eleventh chapter of the Book of Genesis says that before the sin of the Tower of Babel, "the entire earth was of one language" (Gen 11:1). As a result of the sin of Babel, "YHVH confused the language of all the earth" (Gen 11:9). Ever since then, mankind has been divided into innumerable nations, each with its own unique language incomprehensible to all others (Gen 11:7). The original pre-Babel language spoken by all mankind was the Hebrew language. This is evident from the origin of words and names described in the first ten chapters of Genesis, before the confusion of the languages. For example, Gen 2:23, says:
    And Adam said, This time a bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh; this one shall be called woman because she was taken from man.

    According to this, the Hebrew word for "woman" ISHAH comes from the Hebrew word for "man" ISH. In this particular example the derivation of the word seems to also work in English. The English word "woman" seems to derive from the English word for "man". However, there are many word and name derivations in the pre-Babel world which only work in Hebrew. For example, the first woman was called Eve, in Hebrew Chavah, because "she is the mother of every one who lives" (Gen 3:20). This explanation is based on the Hebrew word Chai, meaning "one who lives". Chavah (Eve) was given her name because she was the mother of every Chai (one who lives). Eve's name proves that Adam spoke Hebrew. If he had spoken English he might have called his wife "Livy" and said "she is the mother of every one who lives" but he called her Chavah because he spoke Hebrew.

    There are many name explanations of this sort in the pre-Babel era. The name Cain was given because Eve said, "I created a man with YHVH" (Gen 4:1) based on the Hebrew word for "I created" (caniti). Lamech called his son Noah saying: "this one will comfort us" (Gen 5:29) based on the Hebrew word for "comfort" (nahem). Other examples are Abel, Seth, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and numerous others. Taken all together these names and the explanations given for them prove that Hebrew was the language before the flood.

    YHVH himself used Hebrew when he created the world. On the first day he said in Hebrew yehi or "let there be light"; then he called the light by the Hebrew name yom ("day") and the darkness by the Hebrew name laila ("night"). When he created the first man out of the dust of the ground he called him Adam based on the Hebrew word for ground, adamah (Gen 2:7). Hebrew is not only the first language of mankind, it is a divine language used to create the universe.

  23. thebrucebeat profile image61
    thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago

    Deborah,
    You speaking with absolute conviction on topics like what language God spoke when creating the universe when noone was there to hear him is the perfect illustration of the absurdity of taking scripture and reading it like history.  This is a story to demonstrate the involvement of the deity in the formation of all  that is.  It's not a newspaper account of the events that transpired.  Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion.
    You are a true believer, but you've lost the vast majority of people that have maintained a thread of connection to this world as well.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      _______________________
      I know what scriptures are. But as a Jewish person we interpret scripture 4 different ways in order to understand it.

      When I studied under the Priests in Israel they taught me these methods. Jews have studied scripture for a few thousand years.

      People here read and cross reference and that's it, then act like they know scripture better than the Jews.

      By the way It is part of the Jewish history and life. They use the Torah to set the city ordinances, every Judge has to be versed in it and it is part of the History taught in school.
      Like I said the Jews have hidden writings never shared and regardless how old, it was passed down.

      What I wrote came from the Tanakh, the Jewish Bible.

      The Four(4) ways we interpret scripture

      1. Interpret passages literally as the Word of God

      2. Interpret passages as a historical document.

      3. Interpret passages as midrash.

      4. Interpret passages as folklore.

      Why do you always feel no one can absolutely know something that others can't?

      You said
      "Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion.
      You are a true believer, but you've lost the vast majority of people that have maintained a thread of connection to this world as well."

      My answer
      I'm not emotionally vested. I have my certificate of semichah (Ordained as a Rabbi) in Jewish Mysticism
      It was passed down from Prophets who obtained this info . I see you don't feel God still speaks to people.
      I am not segregated. There's at least a million people who believe this way.
      I am not indoctrinated, I sought it because I felt I was suppose to and I believe a lot of it.
      But I am very eclectic. View my hubs and you'll see,
      I believe in all things

      I interpret the Jewish scriptures to show people a new way to look at it. It does not mean I am fanatical.

      I posted it because this is a religious thread. I'll talk about recipes on another thread.

      I am very capable of having a serious discussion

      I haven't lost anything and certainly not a connection to the world. You're being ridiculous. I play a large role in society.

      Why do you feel it is OK to insinuate I've let go of reality? (that is what you are saying even if you deny it)
      You're slightly slanderous, don't you think. And since you only see me on the forums and no other aspect of my life there is no way you can come to a correct conclusion about me. If you say you can, I have to say you're the one who has lost it.

      Let me be me and you be you. I haven't once told you that you are unacceptable..but now I have to say..you're pretty rude, because I didn't ask you to critique me

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        yep, a true believer

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And what's your problem? I mean really what's it to you?
          It's not a night to attack Deborah.

          You few people are confused
          You're not attacking my beliefs, you are attacking me. That's against the rules.

          I believe in many things the Jews do not and they would not see me as a true believer

          But you two know everything.

          1. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            bad case of PMT?  You seem to be biting a lot of heads off in this forum

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ___________
              Better read from the beginning. I am always nice until I am attacked.

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have read from the beginning. 
                When someone says something you disagree with, you twist it to make it a personal insult against your Jewish beliefs. 
                I couldn't care less whether you are jewish, christian, muslim, hindu. 
                You have illustrated throughout this thread an emotional reactivity when someone challenges your absolutism.

    2. 0
      JoelMcLendonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Goodness what made you feel you could say these things, and why is it your business?
      We are suppose to stay on topic in these threads. This went from a statement about God to a criticism of Deborah
      You really shouldn't say anything else to or about her

      She's more level headed, and kinder than you

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        _____________
        That guy the Bruce..says on one of his hubs that the idea of God is a wonderful concept. But because I know how to interpret scripture and share it on the forums, he says I am indoctrinated.

        It was all because I posted something from the Jewish scriptures (And stated where it is from)
        But he thinks I posted something I believe personally. He can't even see the allegory.

        But, he's the judge, God left him in charge of me.

        1. thebrucebeat profile image61
          thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Here's why I say these things Joel.  Deborah has become convinced that she has the obligation to inform the congregation here about scripture, because she knows how to interpret them correctly.
          How can anyone make that statement with a straight face?  Scripture is always an interpretive dance, and she may enjoy the foxtrot and another the waltz, but neither is the solemnly "correct" dance.  This is arrogance, and it isn't teaching.  It's faith.
          Embrace your faith, everyone, but realize it is a step into an acceptance of the unknowable.  God himself says so in Isaiah 55:8-9, and we should maintain our humility based on that.
          "I'm right and that's why you should listen to me" is simply not very compelling.  Every schoolyard bully has made the same argument.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            _____________
            Joel is my husband, you can't cause him to side with you. Scripture was written in Hebrew so I interpret in Hebrew. Knowing some Hebrew and knowing the allegories, euphemisms,  helps so much in interpreting it. Many people skip over things they don't understand. Like eating the apple. Eating Christs flesh.

            You think not but there is literally one meaning. unlike you believe it does not change depending on the person and his needs.

            I don't know if you read the Bible or not, but it says Jews are his chosen people. I know why but I doubt you do because your mind is closed.


            And scripture says if you bless Israel you'll be blessed, if you curse Israel you'll be cursed. It also says to pray fpr Israel. You don't mind if I do that do you?

            I am offering info, not trying to reform.
            If people want it there is no reason to tell me to stop.

            You appear to dislike the Jews.

            Many people send me emails requesting more info.
            Are you playing the part of Satan..Hmm

            1. thebrucebeat profile image61
              thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              LOL!
              Yup, that's me.  Satan incarnate.  Or is it you?  Or Glen Beck? Or Jim Wallis?
              It just depends on the indoctrinal path you have set yourself off on.  You have gone down the road of traditional Hebrew argument and scripture, and it informs your every post.  You may go astray from some doctrine, but it is the touchstone that you use to make all faith decisions. 
              That's great.  Enjoy it.  Let it bring you joy.  But it isn't argument.  It is faith, and by all means live it.  Just don't imagine that because you have come to believe what you have, that anyone else is going to come to your conclusions because you say you have the gift of correct interpretation.
              "You think not but there is literally one meaning. it unlike you believe does not change depending on the person and his needs."  I wanted to comment on this but it was grammatically indecipherable, so I had to pass.
              As for you praying for the chosen people of Israel, no I don't mind.  I couldn't care a bit.  That's great.  But you have not made the case as for why anyone else should, other than you have accepted millenia old scripture as your touchstone for what you should do.  The "Support Israel or Perish" crowd is simply not very compelling to me.  It seems much more like a protective scare tactic, but if it works for you, pray away.
              I don't care if Joel is your husband or whether I sway him one way or the other.  I do care that he understands the issue that is being presented.  His post indicated he didn't.  That's all.
              Far more intelligent, educated and influential people than you or I have advanced the idea that they held the interpretive insight into the mysteries of the universe and the presence or lack of a deity within it.  You are in good company, and I have given them as much credence as I have you.  That is to say, not none, but no more than I would anyone else who has cared enough to study it.  I enjoy the information you bring to the posts, but have no use for your declarations of perfect interpretive insights.  They bore me. 
              But I enjoy reading about what you believe.
              Why you accuse me of being anti-semitic I don't understand.  I am not suggesting anything about Jewish absolutism that I would not suggest about any other thought tradition.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                __________________

                You believe what you believe.
                Stop telling me what to post. All you have to do is skip my posts. I don't agree with what you believe either, but I haven't got on the forums to bash you (yet, but if you keep on...)

                I don't want to hear from you again

                If Joel is my husband? no I made that up, I don't even know him.

                1. thebrucebeat profile image61
                  thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm not telling you what to post.  I'm reacting to what you have posted.  That's what we do here.
                  Feel free to bash me or ignore me, but what you won't do is censor me.
                  I will respond to whatever public posts I like, even yours.

    3. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      _______________

      You do know that I got that from the Jewish Tanakh and stated where it is from. It is not my writing or my personal beliefs.
      It is allegory.
      Can you see it or do I have to explain it.

  24. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    @brucebeat

    Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion


    Christianity is not based on emotions alone (in fact the Bible discourages it)...

    I strongly disagree that Deborahs attitudes and facts fall within a small arena ,as you also imply.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      __________

      Thank you
      I appreciate it very much smile

  25. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    You know, I seem to recall this same conflict by Parmenides and Heraclitus. The concept of Being. Not long after two Greek Philosophers, Leucippus and Democratus, developed the concept of atomic, thus separating the ideas of matter from spirit --from which came the foundation of pretty much all Western thought.

    I believe it was Aristotle who organized the concepts, and certainly Galileo did what most could only imagine -he combined empirical knowledge with mathematics and formed a damn near perfect construct that gave birth to modern science. Even the Christian Churches could not argue with the evidence and so accepted it.

    Later, Descartes would try to through a wrench into the machine with a very extreme ideology called the Cartesian Divide. Thus giving way to Western beliefs of Self, Isolated Ego, Mind over Matter.

    Quite a contrast, and certainly proof of the duality (now turned Quality), to some primitive Eastern Constructs of:

    A united human being, less the duality, is the knowing of Creator; for the human totality --body, mind and spirit-- encompasses, reflects, endures and proves the limitless nature and character of Creator.

    So, can we know? Certainly.
    Can we know by looking within our minds or thoughts? no.
    Can we know by looking outwardly at the atomic systems? no.
    Can we know by being a unified entity, drowning the duality --and its supercharger Quality? Yes in-deed-ee.

    James.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Spiritually there are always 3 parts working together:

      God
      Jesus Christ
      Holy Spirit

      And many of these discussions include either God or Jesus Christ.

      The Holy Spirit is the bridge to God within you. It is the part of your mind—the part of your Spirit—that is joined with the Mind of God.

      The Holy Spirit is the Voice for God and acts as a reminder to all of God's children of the unconditional love that God has for them.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        mmm,

        I am under the guise that Spirit, which is the essence of Creator, is our spirit -- and that the power/knowledge is filtered through the mind (the tool; the mechanic) into the body.

        It is all light.

        Project, Absorb/Magnetic, Reflect
        Positive, Neutral, Negate(Negative)
        Proton, Neutron, Electron
        Spiritual, Brain/Neurological, Physic/Physical
        Rhema, Imrah, Logos


        ∴ R = e³n

        smile

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Weeeelll...
          Kinda smile


          Jesus is the light -Spirit the power (electric) to 'see' that light smile ( my anaology) lol

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well,
            Like I've said many times, and listed here to show, human beings are unified Light. What Immanu El [Jesus, Y`shua] proved, was just that.

            ( Can't give too much away here, as the book will outline the fullness of it. smile

            James.

  26. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    Folks this is the short story of Babylonian's take on Creation. For those who read the Bible does it sound anything like Genesis?

    The Babylonian Story Of Creation
    In the beginning, there was Chaos, a huge, boundless, watery mass. Apsu was the fresh water, and Tiamat was the salt water. Their children brought order to the world. Anu took charge of the heavens, Enlil ruled the air and later the earth, and Ea controlled the waters and the abyss that they believed surrounded the earth. Apsu and Tiamat plotted to destroy their revolutionary offspring. In the fierce struggle that ensued, Ea killed Apsu and laid the ancient deity to rest beneath the earth.

    The earth rejoiced in its new order, and Ea returned to his temple at Eridu. There his son, the learned Marduk, was born. Yet, all was not well, for Tiamat raged within herself at the loss of Apsu. To avenge his death, she created an army of 11 horrible monsters, with the invincible Kingu as leader.

    Ea summoned the gods to a banquet. As the music flowed, the question of how to defeat Tiamat arose. Young Marduk offered to meet Tiamat in hand-to-hand combat, but he had one condition. If he was successful, he was to have supreme authority over all the gods. Despite their eagerness to see Tiamat defeated, the gods decided to test Marduk's powers and commanded him to make a particular constellation of stars disappear and then reappear. When Marduk succeeded, the gods eagerly accepted this condition.

    Armed with a net, the four winds, a thunderbolt, a storm, and weapons the gods had given him, Marduk snared Tiamat before she could use any of her magic powers. Tiamat opened her mouth to engulf the upstart god in flames, but Marduk filled her gaping jaws with one of the winds. As the wind rushed through Tiamat's form, swelling and distending it, Marduk pierced her swollen body with a spear and killed her. Chaos was dead, and order and organization reigned.

    The world was ready to be created. Marduk stood above Tiamat's body and cut it in half. With one part, he made the vault of heaven; with the other, he created the earth.

    The world again rejoiced in its new order. Then, the gods realized they needed people to sacrifice to them. After much discussion, Marduk summoned the imprisoned Kingu. From his blood, Marduk fashioned the human race. To express their gratitude for the gift of humans, the gods built a shrine and temple honoring Marduk (see page 26) at Babylon, Marduk's favorite site.

    NOTE: This version of the creation tale is from Hammurabi's time (c. 1750 B.C.), when Marduk was worshiped as the chief god. It was found on the Seven Tablets of Creation, large portions of which are preserved in London's British Museum. As several tablets are broken, historians must make educated guesses about the missing text. (Similar cuneiform tablets are at right.)

    By: Baker, Rosalie F., Calliope, Oct2006

  27. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    ______
    Satan is the opposer not a being, the adversary. Anyone who wants to stop God's work, even if it is for just one person, plays the part of the Adversary.

    This thread is about God, not bashing me or my beliefs
    _________________________________________________

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    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      oh, and you're always the innocent party?

  28. GeneralSkeptic profile image60
    GeneralSkepticposted 5 years ago

    I would absolutely agree that if there was a god (hypothetically) no one would be able to understand their qualities.

    Yet the reality is that theists fail to provide convincing arguments for the existence of a deity.  I'm sure most of our understanding of God comes from a monotheistic bias and that childhood conditioning is responsible for much God-belief.

    The concept of God is not necessary for the universe to exist or in our daily lives.

  29. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    Because Americans don't know the difference in Jew and Jewish and were calling all Jews Jewish (even the non-religious ones) The American courts passed a law that they are to be called Jews.

    Might want to read about, if you can find it anywhere.

    Goodness sakes!

  30. Donna Suthard profile image83
    Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago

    Perfect love casts out fear, if fear exists, then there is not perfect love.  Believe this, and you will be free. Only God can establish the solution , and this faith is His gift.. The bible speaks of the peace of God which passeth understanding. "This peace is totally incapable of being shaken by errors of any kind. It denies the ability of anything not of God, to affect you. When the will is really free, it cannot mis create, because it recognizes only truth..God does not want us to react to errors, as if they are really true...some of us do understand what God teaches, and for those of us who do not, thats perfectly acceptable as well.

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Perfect love is not conditional. All religious "love" is conditional, therefore it is not love in any shape or form. smile

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No comments? I wish I could say I am surprised. smile

        1. Donna Suthard profile image83
          Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Religion has nothing to with  ego.. God does not expect any of us to be perfect, in fact  he wants us to be open minded about everything. and to be kind to those who practice whatever religion they believe in. One of the teachings by God is that  whenever there's a win-loss situation, then thats the problem that needs to corrected.  A problem will reoccur over and over again until everyone wins and the need to discredit or make them wrong is an error of the ego.. The need to hurts other,  will result in  a learning failure..forgive yourself, and others for  what they have not done, is a profound teaching of spiritiual thought, and that Thought came from God

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Why don't you address the post instead of circumnavigating it? smile

        2. pay2cEM profile image91
          pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It was a monster. If you close your eyes and ignore monsters, they go away.

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It was a monster wasn't it? smile

            They all are, which is why we never get anything more logical than Goddunit in reply to logic. smile

          2. Donna Suthard profile image83
            Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            If  monster is trying to physically harm you, then I would recommend that you try to stop him from hurting him or you.  I would suggest that you are much wiser than just closing your eyes.. I however would quickly send up a prayer to God for help, for the Wisdom, to know what to do...

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              And, when the monster is religion, what do we do, then? smile

              1. Donna Suthard profile image83
                Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Beelzedad,  People are not going to give up their way of thinking, until they learn that their beliefs are pushing people away, and that usually comes through some sort of emotional pain..if they are radical enough about their religious beliefs, or any belief, it could get very dangerous, and incite people to violence.

                1. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It is not a 'way of thinking' - it is indoctrination, and yes, people do give up their indoctrinations and begin thinking.

                  Religions incite good people to commit violent acts in the name of their gods. They will kill and die for their beliefs. There have been many such claims right here on these forums. smile

                  1. Donna Suthard profile image83
                    Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I totally agree with you, and  I knew that as a child, that  indoctrination is wrong, people are brainwashed, as children, through methods of fear and punishment. Its amazing that, they never question, what they have been taught, but I did, despite the training that I had been given.  To kill and die for their beliefs, is insanity, and its amazing that you would find that here on these forums!.

                  2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Tell me Beezle,what influenced ,indoctrinated you to think and behave the way you do?

            2. pay2cEM profile image91
              pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ...and then when everything turns out fine because monsters don't really exist, the believer will just claim God answered their prayers.

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ___________________
        You are right. The Greek word agape, is unconditional love. The love like we have for Parents and children. All other love will fail.

        But there are people vile enough to not even love even their family.

        1. Donna Suthard profile image83
          Donna Suthardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree only unconditional love works

  31. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    For anyone who wants to know:

    Genesis 14:13
    And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

    He was a Hebrew. God promised Abraham he would be the God of Abraham, his childrens children to every generation everlasting. He did not say if they obey me and live by what I said.

    A Jew is someone whose mother is a Jew and it has nothing to be with religion.

    Now read this (which I did not write)
    It may also be useful to mention the correct use of names for the people to whom the land was given by God. If we follow Biblical precedent, it is certainly correct to call them  "Hebrews" from Abraham onwards (see Gen 14:13). The origin and scope of this name is very much debated among Old Testament scholars, but the Old Testament itself implies some connection with Eber, Abraham's ancestor (Gen 10:21-31; 11:14-26).  "Israel" was the new name given by God to Jacob, Abraham's grandson (Gen 32:28; 43:6, etc), and so the descendants of Jacob are  "Israelites" or, collectively, "Israel". In Exo 3:18 and 5:1-3 "Hebrews" and "Israel" appear to be used as synonymous terms (though if "Hebrews" indicates the descendants of Eber, then Hebrews were, strictly speaking, a much wider group than the tribes of Israel). As already mentioned,  "Israel" also has a secondary and more specific meaning in the Old Testament, since it can signify the northern tribes as distinct from Judah, especially after the division of the kingdom.

    Although the terms "Hebrew" and "Israelite" continued in use into the New Testament period (eg Rom 9:4; 2 Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5), by then the term "Jew" was more commonly used. This originally referred to a member of the southern tribe of Judah (which is it's use in Jer 32:12; 34:9), but after the Babylonian Exile it came to replace "Israelite" as the most widely-used term for one of God's covenant people.

    By: John Bimson, author of "The Compact Handbook of Old Testament Life"  (

    1. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No one has argued with a single thing you've posted here, Deborah. We're arguing with your assertion that the "Jews" used to own Babylon, which you've provided zip, zilch, zero, nada evidence for except to say that distant ancestors of the people eventually called Jews lived in the vicinity at some point. How this means they owned the entire place has yet to be explained.

      1. qwark profile image62
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Pay2:
        Just curious. Why do you bother?
        Ho hum....zzzzzzzzzz
        QWark

        1. pay2cEM profile image91
          pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I honestly can't tell if she's just trolling (which is annoying), or if she's serious (which is amusing). I've made it my life's purpose for the month of May to get to the bottom of this.

          1. qwark profile image62
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I've already done that.
            I just check in once in a while to get another chuckle.
            Qwark

  32. stclairjack profile image80
    stclairjackposted 5 years ago

    passion i think is the answer,... its not to know a god but to know and understand passion,... this is what sets us apart,... we are the only creature on earth that we know of that grasps the concept of love, even when we fail at it misserably, we still understand it.

    to say that religion is bad based on the notion that there are those who would kill in defence of it, is to say that politics are bad because wars are fought over political idiology,...  the soviet style of comunism was as non religious as you could get... howd that work out?,...

    the great in-justices wrought out of religious fervor are out-weighed by the great social strides that faith has brought to the human race,... we have hospitals, universities, charities,... we feed the poor, we heal the sick, we educate the illiterate.

    politics can be called the scourge of human kind, but the wheels of social change through the political machine also bring us equal rights, human rights, and just wars fought to liberate the lives of others.

    humans are willing to fight over things they are passionate about,... thier faith, thier country, thier family,... all of these things are loved or they would not be fought to the death over.

    i realy dont care how one comes to know a god or undersatnd a god,... its a question that implies too much idle time,... the fact the the human race has seen fit to keep this concept alive and flourishing for thousands of years is proof that even if a god does not exist in a provable way,... humans need one,... and will creat one for ourselves,... therefore,.. god exists,.... done.

    i know, i'll get beat up fr this, but be patient, i have dial up.

  33. pay2cEM profile image91
    pay2cEMposted 5 years ago

    Here are 2 recent statements Deborah posted to the forum:

    "I am always nice until someone attacks me."

    "I am never going to be nice."

    Perhaps this should shed some light as to why she's sorta all over the map.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol finally Shane, you found a reasonable contradiction, a real one in fact! Ku-hoodi-o's my man.

  34. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    Go back and read, I didn't call it "owned" until you did. I said something like. it was theirs. But anyway, haven't you ever heard of the Mesopotamia Jews?

    From a third and fourth party plus the dictionary

    The city of Babylon was the capital of the ancient land of Babylonia in southern Mesopotamia. It was situated on the Euphrates River about 50 miles south of modern Baghdad, just north of what is now the modern Iraqi town of al-Hillah.

    The people who became the Hebrews originally lived in Mesopotamia. Later they moved to the land of Canaan (today's Israel)
    Here what the dictionary says
    Now remember I didn't half to look it up, except for you.

    Mesopotamia
    an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of the civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

    In about 3500 BC, an ancient Semitic group of people, called the Sumerians (Hebrews) inhabited this land. The Sumerians, or Semites, were descendants of Shem, a son of Noah. After the Sumerian civilization fell, they were followed by the Assyrians, and later by the Babylonians to inhabit it. The Sumerians worshiped idols. Noah was the only one who obeyed God.

    Now pay close attention so you can put the puzzle pieces together.

    Earliest known inhabitants
    The earliest known inhabitants of Mesopotamia were the Sumerians, whom the Bible refers to as the people of the "land of Shinar" (Gen 10:10). Sargon, from one of the Sumerian cities, united the people of Babylonia under his rule about 2300 B.C. Many scholars believe that Sargon might have been the same person as Nimrod (Gen 10:8). 
    Nimrod was the great-grandson of Noah. Noah was the  tenth in descent from Adam.
    Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
    Abraham was related to Noah with 9 generations between them.
    Samaria was the capital of the Kingdom of Israel

    Genesis 10:8-10
    8. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

    9. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

    10. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.


    Genesis 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

    9. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

    Common since says:
    Abraham was Hebrew (a Jew) Noah was his great, great, (9 greats) grandfather.
    Noah was the great grandson of Nimrod/ Nimrod was the first to inhabit Babel.
    It is referred to as Babylon for the rest of the time.

    So the First inhabitants were Jews and the place was called Babel it Babel. Babel is Babylon.

  35. pay2cEM profile image91
    pay2cEMposted 5 years ago

    No. They. Weren't. The ANCESTORS of the Jews may have first inhabited Babel. That's a given. TwentyOne Days pointing something out to the forum a couple pages back that you've neglected to mention this whole time. While you've been extry busy informing everyone who's a JEW and who isn't, you haven't yet DEFINED it, other than to say that it's a religion (which is only partially true - it's also a culture). What he pointed out is that a Jew was someone who followed the Law and was bound by the covenant of circumcision. This didn't happen prior to Abraham (the Covenant) and Moses (the Law), so no, no "Jews" were ever Mayor of Babel (or however you want to phrase it). And yes, you were the one who claimed they used to own it.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      __________________
      I did comment. Twenty one is wrong. He is a lot. He thinks he knows everything.
      A Jew is a Nationality. Jewish is the religion. You can be an atheist and still be a Jew. But not Jewish.

      I explained it in two places. The first one is in the post you said I copied (which I did). Because I said you would not believe me unless it came from a third party.

      Your so anxious to put me down you're not reading all my posts.

      Your argument was not that others occupied the land with them..you said they were not the first there. Don't twist it to make yourself look good I'll copy all your posts if you want me to.

      You're wrong.

  36. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago

    Shane, my neighbors downstairs, in the houses to both my left and right would be out-n-out offended to be called Jews, and they are ALL right off the boat from Israel. All their wives, kids, grand kids are Israeli and so are their ancestors, the Nation of Israel, not the Nationality of Jews.

    James

    ps, if being Jewish is a nationality, than I suppose we can say Catholicism, Presbyterian and Greek Orthodox are Nationalities too. Even better, as I joke with my Israeli friends, we should have a BBQ and invite all the Hebrew Nationals lol

    1. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I think I told you in another forum that one of our very close friends here is Israeli - and he strongly disagrees with Deborah, as does my mom's entire Jewish family - so maybe I'm just surrounded by all the "wrong kind of Jews" or something? We're unanimously of the opinion that "Jew" and "Jewish" refer to the exact same thing, one simply substitutess usage based on the sentence structure. "I am Jewish" or "I am A Jew" mean the same thing. 



      If they're orthodox, are they allowed to play football? (what with the whole "touching the skin of a dead pig" injunction?)

  37. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    That proves it then. My family living in Israel is wrong and the American courts are wrong. They have to be if his neighbors said it.

    IF, indeed.

  38. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago

    Thats why I post this message.
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1635923

    But pay2 said no one had argued that point with me
    Here
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1636022

    A little of what I posted before.
    Although the terms "Hebrew" and "Israelite" continued in use into the New Testament period (eg Rom 9:4; 2 Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5), by then the term "Jew" was more commonly used. This originally referred to a member of the southern tribe of Judah (which is it's use in Jer 32:12; 34:9), but after the Babylonian Exile it came to replace "Israelite" as the most widely-used term for one of God's covenant people.

    By: John Bimson, author of "The Compact Handbook of Old Testament Life"

    Jew, Hebrew, Israelite which are all the same thing, a people with a mother that is Jew.
    Jewish is the religion.

    Again
    From a third party

    Who is a Jew?

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew

    It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox

    Now I am tired of this.
    Look it up

    1. pay2cEM profile image91
      pay2cEMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is a good starting point: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew," although it obviously begs the question since it becomes a matter of infinite regressions. At some point in time, someone had to become the FIRST Jew. And since he was the first, his mother obviously was not. How then did he become a Jew? The traditional answer is that it began with Abraham's covenant with God. What is YOUR answer?

  39. livelonger profile image89
    livelongerposted 5 years ago

    "Who is a Jew" is one of those questions Jews themselves grapple with. Clearly.

    I disagree with Deborah that Jew and Jewish are two different things. To me, they are the same. However, as she points out, if you're born a Jew (i.e. to a Jewish mother) or convert to Judaism (the religion), you will always be considered a Jew, even if you become an atheist. So, most Jews practice Judaism, but many do not; they are still Jews.
    You also don't have to be born a Jew; you can convert and be considered 100% Jewish (and, by extension, if you're female, then your children are Jewish).

    I realize that this does not fit with any "standard" notions along ethnic or religious lines, but this is how "being a Jew" works. It's like a family; you can join a family, but you can't leave it.

    There are many Israelis who are not Jewish, but they would not call themselves "the Nation of Israel" which implies being Jewish.

    And, yes, Orthodox Jews will not touch pigskin; there is an injunction against it in the Torah. Are footballs really made of it anymore?

    1. wavegirl22 profile image46
      wavegirl22posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Ortho Jews rarely play football. They rarely play any contact sport. ..prpbably stems from their Jewish mothers! Ha

      As far as the gridirons ball. .  NFL NFL footballs are not made out of pigskin, though I have read that at one time they were made of pig bladders, hence, pigskin.

      Today footballs use vulcanized rubber for their inflatable inside and  pebble like leather on the outside.

      A Jew was defined as one whose mother was Jewish. But recently
      I heard a Rabbi define a Jew as someone whose grandchildren are Jewish.

      To quote Leonard Nimoy  Nimoy on being a Jew he says
      "Being Jewish is a gift, not a burden. I treasure that identity. It has been a source of the most important values of all: family, charity, wisdom, compassion, social justice, culture; those values that form the foundation of a civilized society. How can this heritage, this legacy of the Jewish experience, be anything but a treasure for its heirs today?

      When I was a boy, there was a particular blessing used in our local shul (synagogue). The four fingers of each hand  were split to create the Hebrew letter shin representing Shad-dai, the name of the Almighty. When we were creating the television program Star Trek, we needed a salute. I thought back to that hand symbol and proposed it. The rest, as they say, is history. 

      And Elie Wiesel says "I still believe that to be Jewish today means what it meant yesterday and a thousand years ago. It means for the Jew in me to seek fulfillment both as a Jew and as a human being. For a Jew, Judaism and humanity must go together.

      1. livelonger profile image89
        livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What beautiful quotes!

        And why am I not surprised that you were able to clear up the sports-related question? wink

        Interesting about that rabbi's definition. Presumably if you follow the mitzvot, you would raise your child Jewishly and well enough so that they would understand that they would do the same.

        In a related matter, Israel accepts anyone who had at least a Jewish grandparent for the purposes of immigration under the Law of Return, and this was ironically Hitler's definition. And it makes sense, too, when you consider that Israel was supposed to be a refuge for the world's Jews.

  40. LittleFairy profile image83
    LittleFairyposted 5 years ago

    I think so too, that we really do not understand God, but how many of us even understand ourselves? Food for thought...

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I think it takes a really special person to understand self. Most us probably think we do, but I doubt it.

  41. 0
    Digsposted 5 years ago

    It's impossible to convince someone of a spiritual truth they are unwilling or more pointedly incapable of recognizing, by talking.  Being darkened in their unstanding, they replaced the truth for a lie and worshipped the creation not the creator.

    Words alone convince no one of anything.  If a persons understanding of life and the universe encompasses nothing more than their own existence in a one dimensional world, words alone cannot persuade them, having decided they will not be swayed by anything other than self.

    1. Peter Owen profile image61
      Peter Owenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      While I agree with this, I would add that there are many degrees of belief. It is not a case of you either believe or not. There are many in-between compartments where people continue to search.

 
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