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Cosmic Fingerprints; Where did God come From

  1. dutchman1951 profile image61
    dutchman1951posted 6 years ago

    Here is an Interesting Article i found, that makes the exhistance of God a possibility, buy looking at science.

    The Article:

    Cosmic Fingerprints

    Asking “Where did God come from” is a lot like reading a John Grisham novel and saying “This book has lawyers and judges and secretaries, but what page is John Grisham on?”

    The answer of course, is that John Grisham is not in the novel at all. He lives outside of the novel. He wrote it. He created the time line, the story and the characters. The novel is a book with a finite number of pages, a beginning and an end. But John Grisham lives a life that extends far beyond that book.

    Similarly, God lives outside of space and time. He created space. He created time. He is confined to neither of these things. It’s somewhat of a stretch for most of us to imagine that, but a physicist or mathematician will attest that it’s entirely reasonable. There is nothing absurd or illogical to speak of dimensions outside of space and time; in fact additional dimensions are necessary to rationally explain the universe. String theory in modern physics defines 11 dimensions, four of which we experience.

    Human experience, without exception, is that all effects have causes. There are no uncaused causes. The inevitable conclusion is that the laws of physics explain how the universe operates but they don’t explain how it got here. All explanations require an “eternal” ingredient. The existence of anything at all demands an uncaused cause. So we never escape the question ‘where did it all come from.’

    A purely physical explanation (i.e. materialism, or an atheistic belief that says that there is no such thing as a metaphysical world) relies on as-of-yet undiscovered principles of physics. It requires faith, if you will, that someday we’ll discover a way for matter and energy to come from nothing.

    Another problem faced by materialistic explanations is entropy. Entropy says that the universe is cooling down, that energy is being converted from usable forms to unusable forms, and that this process is irreversible. Processes with entropy happen, by definition, over a finite period of time. An infinitely old universe with entropy would now be cold and dead. Once again, the universe can’t be infinitely old. It had to have a cause.

    So science as we know it now cannot possibly explain this. The only logical explanation is a cause outside of space and time – which of course is consistent with the definition of God that theists have held for thousands of years.

    Science does not refute this; in fact a truly scientific assessment of the facts is that all purely materialistic answers to the origins question blatantly violate the laws of physics.

    This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 11th, 2010 at 11:32 pm and is filed under Science, Science and the Bible.

    from Internet Link:

    http://www.bibleprophecyupdate.com/http … come-from/

    so is it possible? Just asking here

    1. profile image0
      Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      An entity over 13 billion years old by our reckoning, that created the universe, is difficult for me to fathom, however it is certainly one possibility. We still have so much to learn.

      But I'm not entirely sure this fits into the belief structure of theists. Their god couldn't live outside of space and time. They tend to imagine a personal god rushing about fulfilling wishes.

      1. dutchman1951 profile image61
        dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Agree Emile, theists tend to go to the supernatural side, the magic of the story, but...
        if he exhists and has the creation power, he would have to exhist outside of what was created first, soooo...

        he would have to exhist before he created it all.

    2. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      dutchman1951   wrote   
        Similarly, God lives outside of space and time. He created space. He created time. He is confined to neither of these things. 


      and I agree totally

        ========================================

         ME thinks

        And it is my understanding from scripture that Gabriel and Michael do not live outside of time and space.
       
        When God gave Gabriel a message to deliver to "MAN"; the message was explained to Gabriel in terms that he understood.
        God told Gabriel that in 62 of his weeks Mankind is going to kill their Messiah.
        Gabriel then delivers that message to Daniel exactly as it was given to him.
       
        If Jesus was the expected Messiah; ( and I believe he was) this is a clearly stated equation explaining that 62 weeks in Gabriel’s world is equal to approx. 568 years on our world.   OR  ?   a prophetic week is = to approx 9.13  or  9.16 of our years.

        If we are going to attempt to understand bible prophesy we MUST always consider that Gods message was first given to Gabriel in terms that he would understand.  And then that message was passed on in those same terms. 
       
        Daniel 12:7  .... It shall be for a time, times and an half
      (word translation change   "and" when,   to   "from" when )
      "  ...  it shall be for a time, times and an half from  WHEN  he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished…
      This is talking about ONLY these prophesy contained in the book of Daniel.  And not any other prophesy that is given at a later date.

      When the Emperor of Rome  (Hadrian) scattered the Hebrew Nation across the Empire, this Time , times and an half began.          And this timeline was finished around 1820. 
        At this time  GREAT  numbers of the Hebrew people began moving back to their holy land as if they had been called with the sound of a trumpet.  In 1844 the Caliphate signed the declaration of tolerance, allowing Hebrews entrance into the cities.  This indicated to them the dawning of a new error!

        Back to the point at hand; Daniel didn't understand (v. 7) and ask the angel to rephrase the statement.
        The angel said " and from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away ... there shall be 1290 days .."

         This indicates that a time, times and an half is the same as 1290 days.    and    when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people  is the same as when the daily sacrifice is taken away.

         The daily sacrifice wasn't abolished !  It was simply taken out of Israel to another place when the power of the holy people were scattered.  They took the daily sacrifice with them.

        When we do the math we find that a "TIME" in Gabriel’s understanding is = to 52.25 weeks in his understanding.
        We call 52.25 weeks a year!   In prophetic terms they call it  "A TIME"
        A Time (in prophesy) is = to approx 480 of our years.  If we are to use any time comparison analogy at all, we should use it consistently, not just sometimes.

      1. dutchman1951 profile image61
        dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Question, if he exhists outside of what was created, then he exhists without time..?

        why then would he pass on a message of time..? or even explan to his created in time reference..?

    3. getitrite profile image81
      getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      So does this present a reason to believe in a supreme being, and if so, can we know anything about Him?  Do we know that He wants us to worship Him?  Do we know that he wants us to build churches?  Do we know that He wants us to beileve that He used primitive goat herders from the Bronze Age to write a book for Him?

      Yes there could be a God, but there is no sense in any of us even worrying about it. 

      If this God wanted to be known, He could have...and would have made His existence PERFECTLY clear to us.

      1. dutchman1951 profile image61
        dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have to agree here getitrite, if He truly wanted us to know he would show up and prove it.

        But to create all of this that we know know of, he had to exhist outside of what he made it to be.

        Like a Painter, he creates a Portrate from outside of the Physical Canvas, but his mind is inside the Canvas, into the design, theme, layout and actual brush strokes he uses to create.  But He, that Painter, can not physicaly fit into the painting.

        And The painter is to vast for exhistance inside the painting, so he remains to the outside of it. But his hands created it.

        So I ask;  Is it possible that we can never see Him as he can not fit inside of His own creation?

        Just a thought   wink

        so Is a God creator possible?

    4. qwark profile image60
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Dutchman:

      I can find the "author," and if he'll allow, touch him, chat with him, have coffe with him et all.

      This man created "god" thing, is what?.. in any form but opinion?

      When we humans can answer that question, in factual form and then provide proofs of "its" existence, I will hunt "it" down, as fair game, and have, "its" head mounted on my livin' room wall with a message under it which reads: "What's  good for the goose is good for the gander."

      smile:

      Qwark

      1. dutchman1951 profile image61
        dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        you went deep on this one Qwark...  smile

        actualy in truth, what does the Universe really explain then? It truly exhists, but how was it created. In factual form science offers nothing but scientific postulance as to its creation. So...why would not then the exhistance of a God be possible. It is as probable as a Big Bang that showed up out of no where's.  So God or science are both possible, not opinion at all.

        Do not be ofronted by the question, but ponder all posibilities. How did all of this really start ?

    5. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      True, but the problem here is that "mathematically" we can come up with all kinds of solutions to problems, such as explaining string theory with more dimensions, but the physical evidence does not support the math. The same could be said for time travel, for example, plenty of theoretical math to support it, but the physical world does not.



      There is no reason to suspect that the physical laws of the universe cannot help explain the universe's origins. In fact, they MUST help explain it.



      There are already several examples of matter and energy coming from "nothing", there is no faith required here because hard evidence is already available to support it.

      There are no "as-of-yet undiscovered principles" in physics that will ever yield a 'metaphysical world' - quite the contrary, the laws of physics forbid such a world as it would violate many of the current laws.



      The problem with introducing entropy into an argument is the fact the term is often misunderstood and then misrepresented. A watered down version of the thermodynamic explanation (dispersal of energy) was introduced to make it easier to understand. In this way, entropy is explained as energy dispersing over a larger area because it is free to do so.



      Strawman fallacy. The state of the universe was such that the event of its origin held the necessary characteristics and properties that allowed it to create the universe, most likely those characteristics and properties no longer exist as they have been replaced with a universe which characteristics and properties are now based on the dimensions of space, time and matter/energy.

      Hence, space and time could never exist equally with whatever caused the universe to come into existence. The cause therefore cannot exist outside of space and time, therefore the cause does not exist.

      And, that is more relevant to what theists have actually believed for thousands of years; a nonexistent first cause. smile

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ahough I agree with you that, at this point, the physical laws are the ones we must adhere to in any attempt to explain the universe; I am confused by some of your points.

        You state: ‘There are already several examples of matter and energy coming from "nothing".’ Could you list these examples? I have no reason to doubt, but I can’t seem to find the information to back up this statement.

        You state: ‘There are no "as-of-yet undiscovered principles" in physics’.

        Wouldn't it be logical to assume the explanation of the supernatural would be more likely resolved through quantum physics? Which is still in the process of attempting to find a unifying theory for everything?

        You also state: ‘The state of the universe was such that the event of its origin held the necessary characteristics and properties that allowed it to create the universe, most likely those characteristics and properties no longer exist’

        This is, as I read it, an affirmation of what the OP has suggested. Whatever caused the formation of the universe is no longer here.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Pair production and Hawkins radiation are a couple of examples.



          Quite the contrary, in fact, quantum field theory prohibits the supernatural from existing, those laws would be violated and anything undiscovered will only support the laws.



          Perhaps, but the OP is based on fallacious reasoning, so it can't be used to validate that suggestion. smile

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm not 100% sure I am in agreement. 

            Pair production couldn’t reasonably be considered something from nothing.  It’s the creation of an elementary particle and its antiparticle, usually from a photon. I realize those are all tiny little things, but they are not nothing.

            And Hawking certainly has a theory on radiation emitted from a black hole, but Bekenstein-Hawking radiation is a prediction. Unless I've missed a breakthrough.

            And, in all fairness, your statement on quantum physics is one of several different opinions.  I am not a quantum physicist, so I can only go by what I have read on the subject.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Pair production can also occur in quantum foam without the need of firing high energy photons at particles.

              The concept is such that although energy is required for the events to occur, the energy is "borrowed" from another system, but not returned to the system to satisfy the conservation of energy law, hence the production of particles.



              Prediction or not, it still follows as theorized.



              Not really. smile

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Borrowed and created are not the same. And there is, as yet, no evidence to conclusively prove Hawking's theory

                Neither is a valid example to back up your previous statement of something having been created from nothing.

                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  This is one of the "dilemmas" of Quantum.
                  The issue of borrowing does make very much sense.
                  As it questions: what and where are those "other" systems.
                  How did those systems come to order.
                  Where does a muon go when it collides with two other particles and all of a sudden appears a fourth from the same "path" as the original muon. do these collisions cause the 'destruction' of other particles and then the 'energy dust' reassemble at another instance? If yes, how and why?

                  I think he was on to something in line with a few other scholars: energy swapping. Much like a hydrogen atom unites with a like atom to form a helium molecule, so also energy at the subatomic and ultras subatomic level exchange properties based on necessity of any given instance of creation.

                  So many factors to inquire and take into account and no mechanic built by man can explain it.

                  James.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Then I misunderstood his intent when he spoke of something from nothing. Your example is still an exchange of energy within a closed system, as I understand it. No matter how strange it may appear.

                2. Beelzedad profile image59
                  Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  This is the essence of the "something from nothing" laymens explanation often misrepresented by believers. Yes, there is something, which is what scientists understand and would expect to find with the Big Bang theory. 



                  If you say so. smile

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Since we are in agreement, I am left to wonder why you made the statement in the first place.

      2. dutchman1951 profile image61
        dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Bleezedad, Physical Laws do not help to explain it, they only define what we see with out eyes and instruments, based on man made laws and mathmatics..?

        what id we do not see it as it really is..?   we keep adjusting the theory of space and universe many times over, but again we see not begining, or true evidence of a begining..?   So Science defines what we see, and offers an explanation of what is known or seen. But how does it exhist, and who or what started it?

        we still have no answers to that.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          What are "man made laws"? Are you referring to the laws of nature? They aren't man made, fyi.

          And yes, those laws do help explain the world around us and when unfounded claims are made that strictly violate those laws, the claims then come under serious scrutiny. Of course, religious claims have zero evidence and violate a number of physical laws, despite the over-zealous and contrary belief that they exist anyways.



          Strawman argument and argument from ignorance fallacies. smile

    6. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      There are a lot of issues here. First off the novel analogy simply doesn't work. The characters in a novel are fictional, not thinking feeling beings and contrary to what the article states the book will DEFINITELY out live Grisham himself. Think about it. How far has the work of authors like Jules Verne and H.G. Wells outlived them? By leaps and bounds.

      Also, it is unreasonable to claim that a MIND can exist outside space and time. Everything we understand about a conscious mind from science tells us that it needs a physical construct and TIME in which to act. A choice, a thought, an action, cannot exist in a timeless state. Things must be moving forward. So in order to create the Universe time must exist before God or at least exist while God's doing the creating.

      "Once again, the universe can’t be infinitely old. It had to have a cause."

      But then that cause has to have a cause and that cause has to have a cause after it. This is known as infinite regress. Positing a God just to get out infinite regress just adds an unnecessary step when we could just as easily say that the matter and energy that make up the Universe are eternal. The article is talking about entropy but all the energy that is dissipating and cooling down is being released into the Universe, none of it is annihilating entirely (unless it comes in contact with anti-matter). If a Big Crunch follows the big bang than everything will reach a singularity again and all of the energy and matter will, in some form, still exist.

      While we can't rule out the possibility of a God I for one see no reason to posit a God in order to explain the currently unexplained aspects and origin of our Universe. I prefer to admit ignorance on the subject.

    7. Apostle Jack profile image61
      Apostle Jackposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Somethings we will never know,and was never meant to be known.That is one of the blank spaces of life.

      1. Druid Dude profile image61
        Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        God is. God stands outside of this time/space. This time/space was created by God, therefore, it doesnot affect his reality. Oh, and then there is the missus. Can't forget her. that is why it is written "Let us create man in our own image." Do you really believe that even Moses would buy the idea that God did it all alone? Next passage says  He made Man in his own image, male AND female made he them. This is so you can be sure of the presence of the female gender in the "image" No image, no female. Get it. If you stumble over this, there being more than one Adam is really gonna bonk ya!

        1. Apostle Jack profile image61
          Apostle Jackposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Everyone is not suppose to believe,it is not reveal to you for a reason.

  2. profile image0
    L.K.kiruiposted 6 years ago

    Outside space? When we say 'outside', we mean space. You see, outside a house is that space. So use clear language, you have a point. I think you mean God created all what is observable therefore he can't be among the observable but nevertheless he exists everywhere. A different plane of reality is more meaningfull than 'outside space'

  3. kess profile image60
    kessposted 6 years ago

    God origin is nothing... for there can be no other...and with that being so, he occupies the Greatest position ever....

    Understand this that is also to understand all things.


    Nothing do still exist.. but it is merely another among the myriads of all other things...find it and there you also find all things and God.

    Some have a tendency to only view the things that  visible or tangible to the sense as existing things...

    but no.. it cannot be so.... 

    for visbility and tangibility are merely just another  among the myrias of all things.. God.

    Concerning time and space...
    Time is merely another thing among the myriad of all things....but still unique serving it own purpose...
    For governs over the mixtures of nothing and all things...,
    Ensuring that the eventuality of each abiding in its own place.

    Then when it purpose is accomplished, it ceases to be.

    Space is that which contains all things and is within all things,so it appears unlimited and without which there can only be nothing.

    Though Space is without visibilty and tangibility yet it existence is without question. We can also see that "Nothing" also share some of it's characteristics except that Nothing is not Space itself but lack thereof thus very very limited...

    We see then that Space is the picture of God, yet it is not quite God for it can only be limited by this....
    The Mind which assign a boundary to it.


    But the Mind that will not assign boundaries to space every where that mind look there it would find Space, for that mind will create it for itself.

    So we see that Space is not God itself because it is also contained by the Mind, which is the consciousness of being....

    Thus it Says of itself I am that I am.  I am God.

  4. wilderness profile image95
    wildernessposted 6 years ago

    Your argument is well put, but contains some flaws, or at least may contain some flaws.

    Our day to day experience does indeed indicate there is a cause for each event.  But when we look at subatomic physics, quantum physics and in particular the physics of a singularity we just don't know that that statement is true. The world of quantum physics is far different than the world of macro physics that we experience. It may be that there is no cause for certain events.

    The universe is expanding, with most indications that it will continue to do so forever.  There is still the question of dark matter, however; it is still possible from our knowledge base that the universe will one day reverse it's course and contract into a singularity, where all bets are off.

    Similarly, there may be another universe, with different natural laws allowing the existence of God.  This is completely different than the concept of additional dimensions; different dimensions seem to exist as part of our universe, detectable only perhaps by their effects on this universe and by mathematical description (not really detectable).  A second universe would perhaps also have many dimensions, but is not a part of our universe.

    Personally I find it much easier and simpler to imagine matter that we haven't found that will one day halt the expansion and begin its collapse than to imagine a multitude of universes (if 2 why not 200?) one of which contains a single omnipotent, omniscent eternal living creature that made a universe full of low quality toys that it wants to worship him.

  5. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago

    Where did any of the numerous gods come from?  From the imaginations of primitive, superstitious human beings, as they always have.  smile

    1. getitrite profile image81
      getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      nuff said.

    2. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How do we know that there were many different Gods?

         Maybe ?  ...   all that there were was  many different concepts of only one God ?

        I think that the earliest concept of a god was simply     
      "a power greater than mankind".  And maybe there were many such entities.

        And even those "gods" had a power greater than themselves?
       
        Who knows?     But then the groups of people became jealous of each other and started dressing their god with bells and whistles. They each had their own concept.

        In all of my years, thousands of people have meet me and developed their own concept of who I am.

        SO !   sense there are Sooo many concepts of who I am, having Soo many different contradictions contained within;  Would it be safe to say that I MUST be simply a Myth!  I never existed!

        I don't exist and never did.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Strange how mortals can easily prove they, themselves, exist, but omnipotent deities invariably fail in the attempt.  Go figure!  smile

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Why do we think that someone or something failed just "Cause" he/it  didn't do it the way that we wanted he/it to do it?

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            "We" don't!  I blame no entity for the creation of all we know. I only blame humans for not wanting to know because it frightens them.  smile

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I often blame humanity for thinking they are knowing what they think that they know and thinking, ....   I'm Done !

                Our understanding (everyone’s even mine and yours) is a product of our own device. 
                We can accept this in ourselves and yet can not for others.

                We want everyone to be like us, for self substantiation?


                 Thyat's life .

      2. getitrite profile image81
        getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        In other words, nothing is perceived by anyone the same way.
        That's true, but at least YOU have a physical presence.  God is only a concept...something that cannot be seen, heard, smelled, or touched...but to be experienced through a special subjective 'feeling'--making the perceptions even more varied.

  6. getitrite profile image81
    getitriteposted 6 years ago

    These newly founded logical theories only lead to more questions, and still no God has presented Itself.

  7. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    getitrite wrote
      In other words, nothing is perceived by anyone the same way.
    That's true, but at least YOU have a physical presence.
    = - = -   --

      Me

      You have never seen me! and yet you have a concept of what I look like, of what you think that I act like or of what you think I would do under certain situations.  and yet !  You believe that I exist ONLY because you see a part of the alphabet written on a screen. 
       You have a set of preconcieved notions which legislate what or who put these words on the screen.
       For all that you really know ? 
       ?  I am just a computer program.?  and yet you believe something else.
    ================================================
         Gogetitrite wrote
    God is only a concept...

    = = =
    Me
      How can anyone say with any certainty that anything is JUST one simple thing?
    ==================================================

    God is only a concept, something that cannot be seen, heard, smelled, or touched...but to be experienced through a special subjective 'feeling'--making the perceptions even more varied

    = = = = =

      I doubt very seriously that we can see or feel or touch even 0.0000000000001% of the things that are touchable, or are there and yet can not see.

    1. getitrite profile image81
      getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Based on common sense, I believe that if I sought to find you,
      I would be successful, Right? But finding God is not the same thing.  I sought God for many years, and found nothing...in fact He probably is one of these entities writing words on my computer screen. smile

      Wow!  Jerami, you could be God for all I know.



      God being one of those things, I'm sure.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        When we back up in time (figure of speach)
        I would think that the definition or what they preceived to be God; would simply be, an entity with power greater than mankind.

           THEM dumb goat hearders had a simple understanding.

          Not nearly as complicated.

  8. profile image0
    L.K.kiruiposted 6 years ago

    Somebody just help me pleace. What is 'outside space and time?' is space and time a house? If someone is outside, obviosly he is surounded by space. Out(side) is a space. Space is collection of 'sides'

    I will come outside and kick all idiots outside out of space!

  9. profile image0
    L.K.kiruiposted 6 years ago

    I.e. I will come outside and kick those that are outside out of outside!

    Am I sane?

    I understand 'being surrounded by space' as a poetic way of saing  'not being surrounded by anything.' Now, 'God is not confined to space' is 'God is not confined to not being confined to anything'!

    Space cannot actually confine anything without itself being something. There can never be outside space without space having some conceivable boundery. How will we describe that outside? It must be a location. And a collection of location. I.e. the genuine empty space.

    Now 'space' is an abstraction comming from 'spacing' or to space or being spaced. The moon is spaced from the earth is to Father loves the Son as there exist a space between moon and the earth is to there exist love between the son and the Father.

    Again it is a question of where and not what. We can locate things on the surface of a billiard ball. We will say a location on the billiard ball is part of space. But space is not the portion of the billiard ball. Get to differentiate between a place (concept) and a portion (object). The confusion comes because say London is both a place and a portion of the earth. It is the entire collection of places that we call space and the entire collection of portions that we call object.

  10. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Two words.

    Scientific method.

    Not ancient ridiculous myths.

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      God, Aka                                                          (There was no sound) is the sum total of previous space/time continuum, as God is the sum total of this space/time continuum. As to where God is actually from, that information is available to anyone who can move the rock that God made which God could not move...or you can wait for his biography, due out on Paradise Books, New Year's day 2013.

      1. Druid Dude profile image61
        Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Those ridiculous myths all have a basis in fact...you simply don't give enough heed to find it.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          What facts, exactly? smile

 
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