I think that we all take ourselves too seriously! .................... Cause .........
everybody says every body else is wrong .... when everybody finally agrees ..... we must be.
Makes sense to me.
I had trouble thinking it once,
What ya talking about willis.
Sorry sometimes I forget everyone doesn't live in the good old usa and might not know about all our "OLD" citcoms.
And besides?? After a really tough day after a wonderful morning I'm finally back in a good and funny (In my mind) mood.
Yey for our team !!!! kind of good mood.
Jerami you are wise. I say this because that is exactly how I feel after reading through this forum. And, because I know I'm right, you have to be too. Just kidding.
Of course someone is ultimately right. Unfortunately we lack the information needed to know who that might be, for sure. I'm afraid that in my short time among you I have been guilty of arguing for argument's sake, a time or two; but those who posture as if they are above others in their intellect and knowledge, or claim to have personal experience with the ongoing mystery, simply because they have chosen to stand in one place are tedious; so I'm afraid I have found myself going out of my way to be tedious back when my eyes are rolling at what I believe is arrogant foolishness.
As Mulder says 'the truth is out there'. Anyone not still in search is sometimes throwing rocks on everyone else in the process of spinning their wheels and ultimately getting nowhere.
I agree, the truth is out there and it changes almost daily. I enjoy keeping up with new developments in many areas of thought, so being a non believer is a constant.
Having said that, call me old fashioned, but I change when I have seen the empirical evidence that is peer reviewed and accepted across disciplines in the way science is when proper scientific methods are applied.
I don't scoff down valium because it is legal on prescription and I am allowed to have it, I want to see the lab tests and double blinds, so I can see the other stuff about how it can easily kill me. In other words, I try to keep up with what can be reasonably falsified....I'm not a fan of a final truth.
You sound like a kindred spirit, although I admit that I am probably more prone to listen to thoughts on the subject of spirituality more than you might be. I'm skeptical, but intrigued.
ON the contrary, I am deeply interested in the spiritual, perhaps not in the same way or even with the same angle but yes what I call spirituality I am deeply interested in.
Well, I stand corrected. I find all angles of the topic interesting, as long as the conversation stays well grounded. Which probably sounds like a contradiction, but whenever anyone begins to claim mystical knowledge I have a habit of losing interest quickly.
Unfortunately, that often applies only to those who make that statement.
Oh my gosh. You've found proof of the answer? Before I order the streamers so I can decorate for the party, I want to make sure you aren't simply attempting to have fun at my expense. (You've been guilty of this before)
So, please share this knowledge you possess? Other than the fact that there is no evidence of God and religions appear to be making it up as they go along. We are on the same page with that one.
Once again, you are going to extremes, which we find most believers will do.
This isn't about having all the answers, this is about those who have few if any answers at all making the claim there are only few answers.
It's an argument from ignorance.
And, I repeat my view on this. We are all ignorant. Any who claim enlightenment at this point are jumping the gun. Implying that anyone who is unwilling to take a stand beside yours on this matter is therefore a believer is strange. The only thing I believe is that I have no proof you are right.
Labeling those who don't agree with you as being ignorant is little different from religionists who label us ignorant for not believing as they do.
You are all attempting to shove us on a road of conformity. What right do any of you have to claim ultimate knowledge? And that is what you do when you adamantly claim your position to be the appropriate one; whether you choose to define it as such or not.
Again, please speak for yourself, thanks.
Ah, the motive reveals itself.
Once again, you take it to the extreme claiming that we have some "ultimate knowledge" - that is just the argument from ignorance fallacy. Feel free to claim your ignorance, just don't brush us all with it, thanks.
You've painted a pretty clear picture of yourself. You and the religionists. No brush strokes needed from me.
I honestly don't get your stand. No one, absolutely no one, in the world that I know of claims an understanding of the universe to the degree you appear to claim. You seem so intelligent otherwise. I feel I must be missing something in your arguments.
And so what if I am a nonconformist. Is there anything wrong with that?
From your perspective of claiming I have some ultimate knowledge, that would make sense, but your statement is little more than an argument from ignorance.
Seems more that you don't want to learn anything as you feel education is the same as "attempting to shove us on a road of conformity."
If that is your understanding of me, then there has been a miscommunication. I could care less which way the argument of spirituality leads, as long as we continue to learn. If what we learn is the death nell, I won't suffer remorse; because we'll know something we hadn't previously known.
If my understanding of the cause of your pessimism on the subject is incorrect, then I can only hope your arguments in favor of your stand become clearer, as I read through the forums. For now, I can only go by posts that I have read so far.
And what can anyone possibly learn from that which is prohibited to exist by the laws of our universe?
It's easy to see why you would make the claims you make.
What do I claim exists? I am attempting to be courteous when I say all things are possible. I don't know that I could seriously consider either of the far end views. The idea of God is as ludicrous to me as the idea of atheism as it appears to be defined by your argument.
Is nothing except your take on this subject possible? I am not attempting to be difficult. I'd like to know.
Wouldn't that say more about claiming ultimate knowledge or is that a claim from ignorance? Certainly, when you say "all" things are possible, you are standing from a position of one of those extremes.
I see your point. But, why is it when I ask you a question you turn it back on me? Are you unwilling to answer?
I try to answer questions that are clear and relevant. If not, I need more clarity.
So. Let me see if I understand correctly. I comment that your position appears to be extremist. This is not relevant. But your opinion that my position appears to be extremist is relevant. I have understood and responded to your question. What was unclear about mine?
But, you are one talking about ultimate knowledge, claiming all things are possible and we are quite ignorant to the world around us. I never made those claims, they are your words so how can I appear to be extremist?
You have taken a simple statement on my part and used it as a springboard to attribute extremism.
My understanding of your argument is that no things are possible, in relation to all things spiritual. Have I read more into your statements than is your intent?
Do we define the limits of the use of the word differently? Do you see no possibility of the continuation of consciousness on some level after death? That, to me, is spiritual.
If you don't consider this possible, I simply wonder how it could have been completely ruled out at this point in our journey.
What I said, again, is that the laws of physics would have to be violated in order for the spiritual to exist, and if they are violated, then they are useless in helping us understand our world as that would mean anything goes, magic would reign supreme and every single concept we can conjure from our imaginations would also most likely exist, unicorns and leprechauns, for example.
Coupled with that, we can look back into the history of religions and spirituality and find oodles of myths and superstitions that have driven every one of them.
And to top it off, no one ever has shown an inkling or a shred of evidence that such things exist. Ever.
And yet, we still have religious believers telling us the spiritual is alive and well and swirling around our reality, day in and day out. They are the same ones that tell us that "all things are possible."
Again, that would violate physical laws and biology.
If you believe such a thing, how do you explain it possible? I'm all ears and would love to hear such an explanation, taking in mind that you would need to show those laws and biology are not violated. Can you do that? Can anyone?
When one side of the argument shows well beyond a shadow of a doubt it has to be ruled out while the other side of the argument is "all things are possible" - it's really a no brainer.
I'm a nonconformist too.
I don't get why Beelzedad seems to be intend on having a go at you lately.
Karma, I would think. But he might be inclined to disagree with that.
Baileybear ,,, I think that Beelzedad; in real life is really a Baptist preacher.
He is just playing reverse psychology. teaching people stuff; without them knowing from where it came.
Sure that's what it is.
I dunno Jerami, he has a sense of humour.
Electric has been off .
I dunno either, was kinda just kidding?
Oh I see!
We don't need electricity from the grid since we tapped in to the hot air being produced daily by our politicians.
No power interruptions this way you see.
That wouldn't work here in the U.S. even with all that hot air. caues the state of _______ sucks too much
Maybe you should see if vacuum converts efficiently.
He doesn't seem to get it and keeps repeating himself over and over. How many times and how many ways must one explain something before they do get it?
I'm not a he and you responded to my post. I don't think I was the one looking for a discussion. I do apologize for answering. We won't have to worry about that again. The repetitive nature of your pessimistic posts are just as tedious to me as mine are to you.
Sorry, SHE will never get it. Embrace the fantasies, they really are helpful.
I don't embrace fantasies. But, please continue to let that dark cloud follow you.
So, then you don't believe in spirituality and gods and that all things are possible, why didn't you just say so?
That's your problem. You lump all things together in order to give them all a boot. You refuse to stop and think, there are no in betweens in your argument. It's all or nothing.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way; but you're a smart guy. You already knew that.
What? You're the one who is claiming "all" not me. I'm trying to explain to you there ARE in-betweens, as you say, and that we don't look at things in the extreme. You seem to be projecting your own claims and words onto me. Unbelievable.
You're not thinking at all, you're tossing out wishful thinking as if it's reality.
And, you're also fabricating stories, where do I "lump things altogether in order to give them the boot"? The only thing we're talking about here is supernatural claims that you're making and I'm merely stating that our current laws prohibit supernatural claims.
I don't know. When you say that; it appears to me that you are lumping everything together and saying that I'm wrong to believe in spirituality, because it equates to gods and everything inbetween. I believe I had already told you the 'all things are possible statement' was said out of an attempt to be polite. You can stop flogging me with it now.
I would be very interested in what in betweens you think are still on the table. If you don't mind me asking.
There are a tremendous amount of in betweens that don't require we invoke supernatural beings or spiritual entities. Humanity has numerous problems that need to be solved in a number of areas that include medicine, biological, environmental, technological, etc., all requiring the necessary funding to make it happen.
We don't need to waste good funding on notions of that which are entirely invisible, undetectable and a breach of reality. Not a single worthwhile result of such ventures has ever been accomplished.
Well, I would certainly agree that no government funds be used. And no time wasted on scientific research. What would be the point?
But, that wasn't an answer to the question. Was it? I was asking what in betweens you see as still possible.
I thought I did answer that.
"Humanity has numerous problems that need to be solved in a number of areas that include medicine, biological, environmental, technological, etc."
Could you be any more vague?
Oh well, thanks for 'clarifying' your position.
Sorry, are you saying you are completely unaware of the problems of societies? You want me to actually list them here? You don't' know what medical issues we have? You don't know of any environmental issues?
Nothing at all?
I'm not unaware of the problems facing society. But I asked you a question about what in betweens you considered possible with relation to the spiritual; not what stands in the way of us achieving a utopian world.
Simply say, ' I don't want to answer that question'. What's so hard in that?
No one is talking about creating a 'utopian world' that is just a ridiculous excuse pushed by believers.
How can there be any in betweens to spirituality when it is prohibited by reality? That simply makes no sense.
Earlier in the conversation you said:
Now you say:
I get so confused trying to follow you. And I am trying.
Simple really, there are in betweens when we talk about reality and nature. Spirituality has not been shown to be either, but instead little more than fantasy and wishful thinking.
I agree with you. I wary of anyone that claims to have absolute knowledge or certainty about things they cannot prove.
Sorry ... I've got too many things on my mind to carry on a good converstion.
Came in here thinking to get my mind off some of it ..
Not working so good.
See Ya in 7 or eight hours.
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