I think that Biblical faith is believing God enough to do what he says.
Faith without works is dead. Faith is more of an action than a noun. One absolutely cannot increase in faith without good works guided by the One whom the trial of faith is being placed. Faith is the substance of things hoped for but not physically seen. Once the trial of faith is achieved precept upon precept the substance can be discerned through the "lens" of faith.
works will not get you there golden, you know the book, well enough to have read and understood this!
there re suposidly two kinds of faith, your faith in God and also.....
Giod's faith in you..! Think
Are you saying you would not commit to "good works" without your faith or your god, or would you do so regardless?
Sometimes I am grateful that believers believe. For some it is only thing that seems to be stopping them from becoming serial killers.
Yes. That must be true. The biggest mass murder that has ever occurred in the United States was perpetrated by an atheist. Too bad he wasn't religious. Might not have happened.
Who would that be? Bin Ladin? Or George Bush?
Oh. It appears I misunderstood your statement. You were talking about those waging war against nations. I thought you were talking about the individual. This must be why you didn't think of Seung Hui Cho. Never mind.
Of course, since you bring up the name of Bush, this begs the question of why you would ignore professed atheistic political figures in your serial killer calculations. Bush was not a religious leader, he was a political one.
" Bush was not a religious leader, he was a political one."
Could have fooled me the way he talked. Sorry. I'm not American and not always up on all the serial killers there. Are you sure Seung Hui Cho was an atheist? A note he left apparently said this:
"Thanks to you I died like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and defenseless people."
Sounds like he was inspired by religion after all. He was also in need of mental help which everyone saw the signs for but no one got for him. I think his was a case of being a nut job, not an atheist.
My point was not that atheists don't kill. My point was that theists like to chant the mantra: "Where would we get morality if not from god? Why would killing each other be immoral if there is no god? "
So I assume that they think they would become serial killers if there was no god. They couldn't help themselves. The fact that the percentage of atheist murderers isn't through the roof and is by and large much smaller percentage wise than in the Christian population seems to somewhat falsify that hypothesis. Yet Christians keep spouting it as if it is gospel.
I'm not a christian or an atheist. Just an ignorant agnostic observer.
People are people. It doesn't matter whether you profess the faith of theism, or atheism nothing motivates your actions but you. The theists know that, as I'm sure you do too. I think your comment was simply made to bait and lacked merit. Theists aren't serial killers on a leash held by a make believe god.
Of course my comment was meant to bait. What was yours meant to do? It's bait for conversation which is why we are all here. Let's not pretend. The question was partly about where we would get morality from if not a god which baited my response and consequently yours.
I don't think the question itself has merit and was pointing that out. I agree that it is not about theists or atheist. Yes I know that. But the theists don't seem to know that or they wouldn't keep asking the same old tired and irrelevant question. You give them too much credit unless they are willfully lying about their belief that no morality can exist without a god.
Of course they are willfully lying. That happens every day when people support the team's position.
But, I see your point. I've made some glaringly ridiculous comments myself when I've read an ignorant OP.
Please accept my apologies. Bait on.
Back handed apologies accepted but real ones not required.
That was actually a sincere apology. I'm just not very good at it. Out of practice, I guess.
Egad, Slarty, you can be such a brat...but you're a hoot! God bless you!
I try my best. You have a great day too.
In that case I am sorry for the misunderstanding. There is no need to apologize to me for anything you may say to me. I enjoy the exchange.
You are exhibiting an abject ignorance of christian history.
I'll give ya just one "really insignificant...wink wink" example of christian brotherly love: "The Dark
Jim Jones did murder a few!
Hitler had a dedication to your "god thing" inscribed on all his troops belt buckles.
Oh, I could go on and on, but why? Your religious bigotry is much to deeply imbedded to be able to overcome it with "worthless" examples of "reality."
Emile, seriously, have you read your King James version of the bible? I don't get the impression that you have.
Maybe I'm wrong. You could be a discriminating reader who just reads the parts that fill your preconceived needs?
I seem to remember, from my readings (studies) that before killing just about everything that "it" alledgedly "created," this biblical, fairytale "god thing" was busy murdering tens of thousands of his "alledged" creations: men, women, children, the unborn, their flocks and pets...or did that somehow manage to just, kinda, be passed over in your readings?
Emile, when ya gain a little more sophistication, by time, study and experience, and that gained sophistication becomes apparent to the "enlightened," you MAY become a credible female.
Until that happens, from my point of view, you can't be taken seriously.
My fingers are crossed in the hope that one day, you will experience an "enlightening" epiphany that will introduce you to the marvels of a world you have yet to know and enjoy!
"May the 'Force' be with you!" :
PS Maybe I should have posted this to both you and Bibowen...Hmmm?
I am not ignorant to history qwark. I was questioning a current events comment. Try to keep up. I realize it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks but, I don't believe any of us are that old yet.
Ah, but you mentioned in your comment the word "atheist."
When, if you compare the atrocities perpetrated by the (non-existant) atheist to those of the christian ilk, the christians are the absolute winners by millions!
Now Emile, enlightenment is available for the taking!
Innundate yourself in an understanding of "reality" and "contemporary truths," and by golly, "hope springs eternal!
If ya try, it will surely happen! :
Qwark, if I didn't know how old you were I'd call you a twit. You are the one in need of enlightenment. Labels mean nothing. Using them for name calling is pointless.
They can only be used in your statistics if the violence is perpetrated by the individual in the name of said religion. And the individual has to be judged sane before we can assume it was truly in the name of religion. (the state of Texas excluded, of course).
If yer not a christian I assumed (ass-u-me) you were, I apologize for the assumption.
I've been called an "old twit" before... NP...remember, I can't be insulted...:
I think you know that I don't believe atheists exist.
There has been so much murder and mayhem perpetrated by we human predators in the name of various monotheistic beliefs, that it proves but one thing i.e. we human animals are our own worst enemies!
Blaming the death and destruction of our own on anything but human genetics, is ludicrous! if it wasn't for monotheism, we'd find another reason to commit genocide.
If you are a believer in this biblical "god thing," my prior comments stand. If not? My bad!...and I apologize. :
So long as we remember that salvation is not based upon deeds but is sole dependant upon our belief in, and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God which is Faith and faith alone, what you say is good. Deeds serve to help us to store heavenly treasure only.
That seems very selfish. Does the concept that good deeds simply might help others not mean anything to you, Dave?
But you are a heretic. The Catholic Church says you need both and they should know. They as much as invented the religion you stole. In life it's called plagiarism. In religion it's called a cult. That's really all Protestantism is and always will be. Get yea to a Catholic Church and confess your sin of ignorance. There may be time to save your soul. lol...
Slarty, you silly man....Dave attends a Catholic Church.
I am a "Christian". I am a child and servant to Almighty God. I am A true follower and believer in our Lord Jesus Christ as my savior and redeemer. Christianity teaches that Jesus and Jesus only is the way to salvation and eternity in heaven. Christianity teaches that no deeds no acts help one achieve salvation, but deeds help one earn God's favors in a heavenly way.
Yes. I suppose that is the myth as it stands in Christianity these days. Yet it is also said by the Catholic Church that if you have not heard the word, you are judged only on your deeds. That seems to be a slight contradiction and may I add a reason not to spread the word.
One can only be judged by their deeds when Jesus returns to deal with satan the devil. Any spirit still in hell awaiting final judgement will be judged upon their deeds as to whether they are worthy of Heaven or dispatched to the Lake of Fire and yes the lake of fire is different from hell as hell and death will end up in the lake of fire also.
I would suspect that anyone who did good deeds simply to gain favor would end up in the latter, Dave.
Those who do good deeds only to help others most likely wouldn't.
Because, that is what Jesus really teaches, Dave, if you actually took the time to understand that.
According to the Church we spend time in purgatory when we die, not hell. Purgatory being death awaiting judgment. Which shouldn't seem that long a wait since we will be dead. The time should go by like nothing at all.
Hell is for when we have been judged and yes according to Revelations hell eventually gets thrown into the cleansing fire. Which if you believe Rev would mean we all get saved. Some of us just have to do it the hard way. lol... Or it could mean some of the really bad ones just get obliterated. But ti wouldn't be a cleansing fire if nothing came out of it "clean".
Of course that is if you can believe the dream of a hermit monk named John who seems to have had his head so full of Isaiah and Ezekiel as to find himself dreaming their ideas in Technicolor.
As you might guess I don't put too much stock in the bible.
What a terrible thing to teach people. No morals whatsoever in that type of belief.
Thanks for taking the time to add to the discussion. Your comments have spawned a nice little discussion, so I'm going to take a crack at how faith and works go together.
I think people sometimes misunderstand Christianity either by thinking that 'they need both faith and works to gain salvation' or 'they need only faith and then can do whatever they want.' Neither of these ideas are Biblical.
Instead, I think Biblical faith leads to obedience. We believe that God created us and Jesus died for our sins, and then we reason from these two beliefs that God must really love us, and since God loves us, then we can trust him, and if we trust him, then we'll obey him and do good works. These good works are the natural response to our faith.
I agree with you.
In the general sense of the word, to have faith is to believe in something or someone, to fully trust, to be so confident that you base your actions on what you believe. To have faith is to be fully convinced of the truthfulness and reliability of that in which you believe.
Faith in God then, is having the kind of trust and confidence in God and in Christ that leads you to commit your whole soul to Him as Saviour (Justifier, Cleanser, Healer, Deliverer) and Lord (Master, King).
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see."
I've never heard him say a word. Have you?
No, I haven't heard him talk, but others did, and they wrote it down.
I think Biblical faith is not blind faith. In the Bible whenever someone shows faith, it's always a reasonable thing to do. For example, Jesus' followers see him perform miracles, and then they believe him. That seems reasonable.
Can anybody think of examples in the Bible where someone believes God blindly, without any good reason?
No my friend. If you have evidence for your opinion then faith is not required.
Faith is blind or it isn't faith.
There are some Christians today who have blind faith. They don't have any intellectual reasons to believe in Jesus. But, that's not what faith looks like in the Bible.
In the New Testament, the word 'faith' and 'believe' both come from the same Greek root word. It's only in English that we differentiate between them. I don't think we would say that all beliefs are blind.
And, if the disciples had evidence for their faith, why can't we have evidence and logical reasons for our faith?
If there were any you would have. But you can not be certain a good exists. The only evidence you can have is "personal". It may come through a religious experience of some sort. So it becomes a personal conviction that you are interpreting the event correctly. Then a personal conviction that there must be and therefore is a god.
You can not show me evidence of a god which will convince me, and not because I can't be convinced, bu because there is no such concrete evidence. If there were there would be no need for faith at all.
On the surface it doesn't look like all beliefs are blind. But in essence they are. Belief in a fact is redundant. There is no need to believe it is a fact, just to accept it as a fact. If something is not a fact it is a speculative. To believe in speculative ideas is a kind of faith.
You can say that based on the evidence your opinion is that this or that is probably correct without investing either faith or even belief in it. So belief is not required to have guarded or conditional opinions based on fact.
Lack of belief is not in itself a belief. I lack the belief you have that a god exists. It's speculation like big foot. I might even like the idea of some versions of god, but without real evidence that they exist I'm not going to invest even belief in them.
So to me belief and faith are indeed the same thing, as apparently they were to the Greeks. But I am willing to entertain the idea that there are degrees of blindness involved and that some forms are less blind than others.
As for the original disciples, one would think they based their opinions on what they experienced and saw. But were they right? Did they experience what they thought they experienced? You don't have a real Jesus you can go to to ask questions of.
Then there is confirmation bias. Jesus may have thought he was the son of god or on speaking terms with it, but was he? That he convinced others doesn't mean anything. Jim Jones convinced people he was in touch with god too. Do you think he was?
What you can have is "personal" evidence. But that is often bias. You may well just be attributing that evidence to a god without it actually being evidence of a god at all.
Short of god poking his head out of the sky and saying hi to the world, we can never be sure god isn't just imagination. So any belief that it does exist is somewhat blind. Saying it does with certainty is as much as a lie, because you can't know it with certainty.
Yet faith gives the illusion of certainty. That's it's point. .
Faith is never in the bible described as blind faith. If we read the bible we would know what we are believing for, What God promises, and we than chose to believe and accept it as truth putting our complete trust/faith in God to do what His word says.
We may not see God when he is fixing it, or while we are waiting- but we know for sure He is faithful to do as His word says.
Now when people are referring to faith before signs it is referring to>>
Matt 16:4--A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matt 16:12--Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
This is talking about was how the Pharisees and Sadducees who didn't believe and were asking for a sign first. This is how those that don't believe today are. They say they would have to see some sorta sign first that they will in God, Jesus, healings, & etc. Also note he those that were wicked, adulterous, seek after a sign first.
A little about Jonas/Jonah >>God first told Jonah “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it.” It should be obvious that what Jonah spoke was a conditional proclamation to give them a chance to repent. (Jonah 1:2)
God didn’t tell Jonah everyone would be saved, and he doesn’t tell this to people today--even with their prophesying/warnings not everyone in all cities and nations will come to Christ.
His message was simple– “yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Jonah 3:5 states, “And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.” God honored their repentance, (Matthew 12:41, Jesus tells us they repented).
This is the message those that don't believe and ask for a sign will get- repent turn from your sins and accept Jesus as your Lord.
Now when it comes to those that have accepted Jesus we have already stepped out in faith without seeing Jesus, or witnessing the hole in his hands & feet.
Seeing and Believing:
John 20:24- Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Signs follow those who believe and those that do witness God's power, Jesus healing, and other miraculous events than our faith is increased even more.
No there are those that Jesus refers to when it comes to ' followers see him perform miracles, and then they believe him. And He encourages us to believe because of the miracles too- This also in John 14.
John 10:37-38- If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."(NLT)
Heb 11:6--And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Biblical references to faith in the New Testament.
A. Greek word pisteuo, which means "to believe"
John 3:16 - "whoever believes in Him should not perish"
John 11:26 - "everyone who believes in Me shall never die"
Acts 16:31 - "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved"
Rom. 1:16 - "power of God for salvation to every one who believes"
Eph. 1:13 - "having believed you were sealed with Holy Spirit"
James 2:19 - "the demons believe and shudder"
I John 5:1 - "whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"
B. Greek word pistis, which is translated "belief" and "faith"
Rom. 1:5 - "the obedience of faith"
Rom. 5:1 - "having been justified by faith"
I Cor. 15:14 - "if Christ not raised, your faith is in vain"
II Cor. 5:7 - "we walk by faith, not by sight"
Gal. 2:20 - "I live by faith in the Son of God"
Eph. 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith"
Phil. 3:9 - "righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith"
Heb. 11:1 - "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"
James 2:26 - "faith without works is dead"
I Peter 1:5 - "protected by the power of God through faith"
God Bless you
Yet still if you are certain something is a fact then there is no faith involved. And to be certain without evidence except perhaps personal intuition because of some religious epiphany is faith.
So you believe in the promises of god. That's fine. That's faith because you don't know with certainty that a god exists. Were you to know with certainty a god exists then no faith in that idea would be required. However you still might need it to believe it keeps it's promises.
You also need faith to believe that what someone wrote a little less than 2000 years ago is not just a voice from the ancient past blowing smoke up our collective rear.
In religion there is a lot you need have faith for and it pretty much has to be blind, because religion assumes so very much that it can't prove.
Now if your god were to show up things would be different. But then there would be no faith required at all, would there? Even I would know it exists.
You have a good day too.
Biblical faith is the mind's response to the fear of death.
Because the centre of fear in the brain is primitive it behaves much like an Ostrich burying it's head in the sand.
There might be Christians today who believe just because they're afraid of death, but that's not how faith is portrayed in the Bible.
I could make a similar argument about naturalism. Naturalism is the mind's response to the dislike of authority. People don't like being told what to do so let's come up with a theory that makes morality, ethics, etc. all subjective and relative. And there probably are some who accept naturalism as their worldview for this primitive reason, but that doesn't mean that all naturalists have their head in the sand like a ostrich, just some.
Biblical faith is the mind's logical response to encountering God in the pages of Scripture, in a sermon, or face-to-face if you lived 2,000 years ago.
Faith that every word in the Bible is absolute ire-reputable truth..? Not a smart assumption as it is hearsay from so-called whitnesses some 80-150 years after his Death and he wrote nothing down..?
remember Al Qaeda also has faith; and it is Biblical for them also..?
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