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Who said Satan was sent out from heaven?

  1. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    From the beginning in the old testament Moses did not say how satan came into the stage after his account on creation. We now teach that the devil decived Adam and Eve. But most interestingly is the idea that Satan was an angel that rebelled against God and God sent him out and he came to earth such idea was new because although satan was mentioned in the old testament, how he joined the stage was not said. He even came as a son of God so when actually did he rebel? was it during John's revealation or what?

    1. goldenpath profile image79
      goldenpathposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Lucifer rebelled in the presence of all of us.  We were all there and had the choice to follow him or the plan outlined by the Father.  There are texts that reflect this such as the forgotten books of Moses which is not included in the standard Bible.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Lost book of Moses number 6:
        No manuscripts older than 1849 are to be found, and the claimed origin must be regarded pseudepigraphic and spurious.

        Here's an excerpt:
        Through me Jehovah, the god of heaven and earth, thy race shall be multiplied and shall shine as the stars of heaven. In addition to this i will also give thee might, power and wisdom to RULE OVER the SPIRITS of HEAVEN and HELL.
        Over the ministering angels and spirits of the FOURTH ELEMENTS as well as of the SEVEN PLANETS. Hear also ....i give thee the SEVEN SEALS and12 TABLETS, Schem, Schel, Hamforach, that the angels and spirits MAY always YEILD OBEDIENT SERVICE TO THEE, when thou called upon them BY THESE seven seals and twelve tablets..

        I didn't have to read much further to realize this is rubbish. Its a psuedepigrapha book and not to draw doctrine from.
        Pseudepigrapha  [Gr.,=things falsely ascribed], a collection of early Jewish and some Jewish-Christian writings composed between c.200 B.C.  and c. A.D.  200, not found in the Bible or rabbinic writings.
        Apocalypses are well represented in the Pseudepigrapha; those of the early Judaic period may date from the 3d cent. B.C. Most of the works are anonymous.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry about that golden path but if this book is doctrine to you. Jesus came to help.
          The book of enoch has also likewise rubbish.
          The lost books of adam and eve, suck too.

      2. MissE profile image82
        MissEposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Golden Path is correct.

    2. Ms Dee profile image85
      Ms Deeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Lucifer's defiance of God and consequent fall of perhaps one-third of the angels (those who joined him) happened sometime between the dawn of creation (when God rested and declared it all good) and when he intruded upon Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Now you have to convince me that heaven is a place any angel or other being would not want to be in.
        Then you have to convince me that any angel would be stupid enough to confront God.
        Then you have to convince me that the angels stood any chance at all of beating their creator
        Then you have to convince me that angels have free will. Do angels in any part of the bible decline a mission from God? Or question him? NOPE.

        1. Ms Dee profile image85
          Ms Deeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No thanks, brotheryochanan. Those are your own questions and doubts. How about you convince yourself that your doubts have any foundation to them. smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            not my doubts at all.
            If your gonna say what you said, its up to you to back it up. I suggest you take it off the paper and apply it in a realistic approach.
            Lucifer is mentioned one time in the bible and we KNOW that we cannot make a doctrine out of one scripture. There is no biblical support that lucifer and satan are the same. The isaiah passage repeats that he is talking toa man, and that man, i purport is Nebuchadnezzar.

            1. Marcus D Mays profile image59
              Marcus D Maysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Brotheryochanan, read this Ezekiel 28 vs. 13-19

    3. vector7 profile image61
      vector7posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus Christ said.

      And there is no such thing as time in the spiritual world.

      Research would prove useful, as the answers you're looking for have been pondered before your mother ever thought of you.

      cool

    4. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I believe it is after day six of creation after God creates man and woman. I believe that after God returned at the end of the sixth day, God announced His creation of man and Lucifer, satan, the devil questioned God as to whether man would love God because God was the creator or would man love God out of "Free Choice" to do so. This is why God had to create the "Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil" for man was not aware of the possibility or existance of evil, all man new was the goodness of their creator Almighty God.

      It was at this time that satan chose to leave heaven and try to tempt man in the garden on earth.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That would be a nice wrap up if satan were mentioned in Genesis anywhere.
        Satan is not mentioned. This is catholic belief and a pimple on the face of Christianity.
        We have a serpent.. the letter tet. Read my hub on tet, you may find this rationally coincides with eves encounter with the serpent.
        Why adam did not try to stop her
        Why God punished an innocent 'possessed' snake
        Why the snake talked
        Why Paul who used the word satan infrequently, did not say so here:
        2 Corinthians 11:3   But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your MINDS should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

        1. lizzieBoo profile image78
          lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So there's no Devil....interesting.

          1. jacharless profile image80
            jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yip.
            He is spot-on, on this. There are no demons or fallen angels in Judaic history (aka Old Testament). They are lore from the books of Enoch and Jubilees.

            James.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              so what's with all these pentecostals trying to cast out demons?  What's with Jesus casting out demons?

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You have to study the instances of Jesus casting out devils to see what is going on.
                Jesus downplayed the casting out experience every time.
                God is so very gentle to keep our free will intact that instances of demon possession would utterly ruin.
                Legion was in his right mind - not insane - afterwards.
                The jewish people adopted this pagan belief from their time of assimilation in the babylonian exile but mostly from their persian experience while also in exile there.
                Can you picture demons having nothing better to do than to cripple people and then live in them.. what a waste of time, nevermind they thought they might conquer God - these have to be the stupidest angels ever.
                Angels don't chooses to love God they were created to obey, servants if you like. The difference between angels and humans is that humans have the option of loving God and this option is why God created humans.

        2. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          an enormous, painful, pus-filled pimple

      2. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        why didn't god just fry satan if he is so powerful?  Then wouldn't have to have all the drama of a stuffed up world with 99.9% of souls going to hell

    5. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I would expect a book that has been inspired by such an awesome god to not be fundamentally flawed as to raising such questions.

    6. bluejam2u profile image61
      bluejam2uposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Satan rebelled at heart sometime before coming to earth to deceive Adam and Eve.  His action was the deception.  The first chapter of Job shows that at that time he still had access to heaven.   The fact that he was not in good standing is shown by the way he challenged God claiming that no human would remain faithful and that they only served God because of the good things he gave them.  Sort of service because of what they could get. 

      Satan tempted Jesus trying to get him to sin finally offering him all the Kingdoms of the earth, showing who the true ruler of earth is.  Later Jesus told the Pharisees they were from their father the Devil who is a liar and had been a liar from the beginning.  Does that mean from his creation by God?  Is that the beginning?  No.  God doesn't create imperfect things.  Satan became a liar when he rebelled and pressed humans to join in his rebellion.  Now he is the earth and mankind's ruler.  To disengage from his rulership each human  has the right and ability to join Jesus people and submit to his rulership.

      At Revelation 12 John in vision saw the 'original serpent the one called Satan and Devil thrown from heaven' and 'misleading the entire inhabited earth', 'woe to the earth for the devil has come down to you knowing he has a short period of time'.  John was speaking about a future time.  It was prophetic. 

      Jesus spoke of the Last Days.  He said we would know we had entered those last days when certain signs began to be fulfilled.  Wars and reports of wars, earthquakes, food shortages, pestilences and the love of the greater number cooling off".  Does that sound like a news headline or what? 

      Satan has obviously been cast out and is in the vicinity of the earth causing woe.

  2. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    Satan is a scapegoat for the good gone bad.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      more succinctly, its a persian belief of two warring gods - a god of good and a god of bad.
      Since people do not like to put bad things on God this second god is easily believed.
      The romans had warring gods also, titans and gods and semi-gods.
      The egyptians had warring gods also.
      fiction and not fact.
      Isaiah 45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        they've all copied each other regarding gods

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There are similarities yes. Jesus on the cross is completely unique but this is old testament discussion.
          Each has their own gods.
          The creation story of bible is much different than the others.
          The gods of egypt were replaced by a singular God, although not right at the start. God brought His people out of egypt and for a while He talked to them in terms they believed. Elohim means powers, its a plural form. The Hebrews understood God to be powers, the power over nature and the power over life and death, prosperity... this coincided with the Hebrew/Egyptian understanding as they saw God not a jesus christ with a body but as an entity with powers over all of creation. In exodus 3 God says: "i am that i am". In time the Hebrews came to understand there is one God, different from the egyptian belief they were accustomed to.

          1. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Elohim means gods in all the searches I did.  Except it gets translated God when referring to Judeo-christian god & gods for pagan gods

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Strongs is good, but its roots are not hebraic. They are rather catholic.

  3. DoubleScorpion profile image86
    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago

    Seriously. Alot of the questions that get posted on here could be easily answer by taking a Class or two on the Bible. If you are interested Yale University offers a free complete class on both the New and the Old Testaments.

    If you are interested...Let me know and I'll give you the website...If not..Check around for colleges that offer religious degrees.

  4. Owl In The Barn profile image61
    Owl In The Barnposted 5 years ago

    Its in revelations chp 12.

    1. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with your reply but this answer sets no timeline for this is a revelation given John by Jesus after His ascension to heaven.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      IF we look at revelation vs 9 and 10
      Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

        Revelation 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come SALVATION, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his CHRIST: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

      Now means now.. when this time applies.. but notice Christ is involved so safe to assume it is referring too after christs resurrection. So if you are thinking the dragon, etc is satan you will have to discard that satan fell back in the time of genesis.

      The old serpent is called the devil and satan. yes. This refers to the sin nature in man having rule over people. Its a hard metaphor to grasp but hey this is revelation a deeply symbolic book. Again my hub on tet brings this out. Cast to the earth is a jewish phrase for defeated.

      Notice verse 12
      Revelation 12:11   And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

      Christs death gives power to overcome the sin nature. Again blood of the lamb is a NT phrase.

      Lets look at this letter of john as a letter written in prison and a letter than needs to get out of prison. Replace rome with dragon and you get a letter that will pass mail security. Laugh if you will but the mail was screened and any letter that spoke against rome, its writer was labeled a seditionist for which the penalty was death.

      Revelation 12:17   And the dragon (rome) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

      A highly allegorical and metaphorical book, written by a jew to jews not to be interpreted by gentile understanding, especially with a false belief in satan.

  5. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    John wrote the book of revealation so did it happen while John saw the revealations and penned it? I mean when exactly did Satan rebelled and was sent out. I think people just came up with the idea because it is a shame for such thing to happen. That a creature will fight against his creator. The same creator that used words to create the world. He did not need to fight but to command and that is the same thing he can do to take all power from satan as people say,"God did not take satan's power."  we dnt no

  6. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    doublescorpio is the bible course on Yale free or what? you can share the link so that people can check it. Do you think they teach what has not been taught?

    1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Here is the Link for the Free Yale Courses...

      http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies

      This is not new information for me...But from some of the things I have read on these forums...I think a few people could benefit from at least listening to these 2 full length courses.

  7. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Some knob flogging religion perhaps? lol

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      roll

  8. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago

    Haven't we been through this before?  533 posts, to be exact!


      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/60664

  9. www.lookseenow profile image59
    www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago

    Moses is the writer of the book of Job. In both chapters, 1, and two he shows how Satan comes to center stage. Twice he attended an assembly in heaven and was confronted by the assembly overseer, Jehovah:

          “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered:
          “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” (Job 1:7)

    Sometime later, after Satan did his damage to Job, and at another assembly with the same assembly overseer this rebel is again on center stage:

          “Just where do you come from?” Satan answered:
          “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.”
    (Job 2:2)

    I’m writing this comment to address davidkaluge’s comment that there’s no more mention of how Satan joined the stage.  Satan provides a thread throughout the Bible to fulfill the first prophecy made there in Eden—the enmity between God, the Woman, her seed, and his (Satan’s) seed.  Revelation provides the showdown when Satan is bruised in the head.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      roving about in the earth.... so satan got to keep his legs, obviously. So what did God take the legs off of? an innocent possessed snake? I hardly think for a righteous judge that the snake could be held accountable.

      Lets look at this roving about in the earth (the earth is a term with some idiomatic meanings... the earth was defined as "all a man could see", "the known world" meant not the whole world, but that part which was known or accessible.) In the earth does not mean hell, since hell does not exist in the earth and why would this satan fallacy be IN the earth.. do earthworms need monitoring?
      Yesterday i went for a walk about the neighborhood. One could say i was walking about in the neighborhood and being to and fro in it.

      check a few posts up if you'd like to see another interpretation of Revelation and the dragon (with his tail - satan has a tail... when did angels grow tails?)

  10. Greek One profile image80
    Greek Oneposted 5 years ago

    Satan was first booted out of Edmonton.  From there he went to Buffalo, New York, Pittsburgh and then Boston.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_%C5%A0atan


    FYI... Not sure why this forum topic was posted in the Religion section

    1. lizzieBoo profile image78
      lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      you are such a silly one!

  11. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
    A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago

    Satan rebelled before he "beguiled" Eve. How do I know this? Because it is obvious that at the time satan was intent on causing Eve and eventually Adam to fall from grace. Premeditation is clear. He had formed a plan before Eve took the fruit.

    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      yet god did not destroy satan at that point - why not?

      1. www.lookseenow profile image59
        www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        To settle an issue raised there God's right to rule.  The first prophecy uttered there is to settle the isue of universal sovereignty that has taken six thousand years, and is still in progress.  What's this first prophecy? 

        Read Genesis 3:15

        1. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          so God would rather rule, even if it means destroying 99.99% of his 'creation' if they don't worship him, rather than doing good from the beginning?

          1. brotheryochanan profile image61
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Good was done in the beginning.
            But lets look at ruling.
            People are made... what will they be like? robots? puppets? or free to do what they will.
            Which is best?
            robots or puppets.. both just do. There is no picking or choosing.
            But you have heard all this before and theres no sense going through it again.

            1. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              why can't they have free will in a world without murder & sickness?  And what kind of freewill is 'worship me' or you are punished?

              1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                i rather think its because murder and sickness followed the free will of those that choose not to pick the good.
                How about in the beginning people did not get sick but as time progressed and more bad abounded, so did the effects of bad.
                Cain chose the bad which was to murder his brother.

        2. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I don't think we can look at gen 3:15 as a prophecy. This is something the church alludes to with its connotation of satan. I cannot recall this verse being repeated anywhere else in the bible. It seems to stand alone.
          Its quite the controversial verse.
          Eve did indeed have two offspring. One good and one bad. Cain unto the bad lineage (cain followed the bad) and Abel (followed the good). We also have to be wary of prepositional words... he is not always the proper word to use.
          It shall bruise your head and you shall bruise its heel is a term denoting that humans shall struggle and have occasional victories, but not all the time. Remember God is talking about, not too, the sin nature. Adam and eve are being taught why they did this
          gen 3:14 says: "because thou hast done this, thou art cursed", but the original says, "thou hast done this being cursed". the curse or sin nature or ability to choose the good or the bad was in them from the start.
          A point to note is that God is not mad during this time, He is not prophesying or cursing them either, he is stating facts now that things are very much different.
          Like i said, controversial

      2. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        If God had wanted mankind to live in the garden forever and if God was content with things to go the way the garden was going, there would have been no temptation, serpent or tree in the middle. God would have his puppets in the garden but God created mankind to choose Him and love him - something that angels were not created to do.  (The tree, if it were a tree, could have been over in the far left hand corner, surrounded by plants impossible to get through) In the midst means 'could not have been avoided'. The tree is a path or way, by extension a lifestyle, that bears fruit. Fruit unto good and fruit unto bad. Since the ability to choose the good and the bad was already in Adam and Eve, that free will thing, then the lifestyle they chose to go down and the fruit that it bore which they partook (ate) of led God at some point to say "enough is enough". This highly allegorical and metaphorical scene is not to be taken literally. As soon as a person takes it literally many questions immediately jump out... of course the invisible super entity  - satan suffices all those questions except the questions that jump out when one injects satan into the scenario.
        I tend to think that when God asked "adam where are you?" God had been away for a while. Why would God be away for a while.. adam and eve were choosing the bad more and more often, because prior to that God visited every day.

  12. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    Scholars said that the author of book of Job is unknown so how do say Moses wrote the book of Job? Secondly, it was not mentioned from the beginning in Moses writing how Satan sinned and was sent to hell or what. Thirdly, the verses you used in the book of Job took place when sons of God came together and satan presented him so he is among the sons of God. Lastly, God did not stop him from join because he did ask " who invited you devil?" instead he asked "where have you been?" yet he gave him a deal,Job.

  13. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago

    Lucifer was created perfect by God, according to the book.  So how could a perfect being created by an all seeing, all knowing, deity be flawed to the extent of envying his creator?

    And, of course, God would have known it would happen before he created him.  This seems to indicate God intentionally meant for Lucifer to show his true perfect, but flawed ass.  After all, there is no good unless you have evil to compare it to. 

    Since there is no one to vouch for the veracity of Moses but himself, it seems rather  foolish to put much stock in his version of the Eden Saga.

    And don't tell me god telling Eve she could have anything to eat except that from the tree of knowledge, wasn't a set up!  Even us mortal men know better than that!  Give me a break!  lol

    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ah, but it's so much easier to blame mere mortals.

      Seems to be a recent change to reject the 'doctrine' of satan/lucifer being fallen angel etc.  I'd say most christians still subscribe to this

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        hopefully this will catch on. The Lucifer/satan 'doctrine' is full of holes. The thing is that few do the research or question what they have been told and when shown flaws in this theory they "tilt" and eventually reject it.
        The other thing is: Since Jesus the paramount important doctrine is that of salvation: repentance of sins past and invitation of God future. Everything else leads to strife, division. Christ said preach the gospel. The Gospel is important. So whether a snake in a tree suffices one individual and not for another, the Gospel is the still the most important aspect of christianity.

    2. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Was Eve the first dumb blonde Archetype?

      1. brotheryochanan profile image61
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        just like you might well be the first australian archetype
        lol

        couldn't resist.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Couldn't resist what exactly? smile

  14. brotheryochanan profile image61
    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago

    You've been all over this garden scenario before.
    Odd how you stick to an interpretation you esteem silly and futile and thereby negate the whole incident.
    Odd how curiosity does not spur you consider other approaches to this curious puzzle.
    But as usual, instead of hunting for gems you would rather just play in sand.

  15. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    It was not mention when satan sinned. Even if satan sinned, why dn't God chain him somewhere so that he wnt tempt? Why did God send him out of heaven to earth?Why did God plant the tree there in the first place while he should know the outcome?I wonder why people dnt ask questions and claim all that is written is the fact and its God's word while its a man's word.So others dnt have anything to say or the right to speak?Eve must have seen Adam as a foolish man so she gave him the fruit.If not we will be nake

  16. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    This is int he Bible subforum, so I was kind of expecting someone to show where in the Bible any of this is mentioned.

  17. Tumbletree profile image60
    Tumbletreeposted 5 years ago

    Joseph Campbell tells a story, I believe out of the Koran, were God tells Satan that he must love man was much as he loves God, but Satan can't love man as much as God, so God sends him to hell, and Satan endures Hell by remembering God's voice telling him to go to hell. Anyways it's another version of the story.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      hahaha.

  18. Tumbletree profile image60
    Tumbletreeposted 5 years ago

    Joseph Campbell tells a story, I believe out of the Koran, were God tells Satan that he must love man was much as he loves God, but Satan can't love man as much as God, so God sends him to hell, and Satan endures Hell by remembering God's voice telling him to go to hell. Anyways it's another version of the story.

  19. Momma Mia profile image79
    Momma Miaposted 5 years ago

    Bible was altered by man....men with reasons or excuses to control. What we can feel is in simple terms for us ditsy humans... that evil feels powerful, mad,insane. bitter, greedy and jealous.If we live in todays society we have to understand all emotions. Happy is childlike and anger is manlike or is it manmade? Lucifer is bad and God is good.....simple huh?  All in between has a side line to perch.  What makes this interesting is that we the people still look to a book to explain all this. WOW   I am amazed.......  but with Gods patience for us to grasp any small understanding.

    1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
      Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Bible was altered by man, I agree. It was also written by man, and the content of the bible was made up by man.

      An all powerful god would not let a book containing so many contradictions and inconsistencies be his only means of informing people about his existence.

      Is god not powerful enough to inspire a book that makes sense?

      1. Momma Mia profile image79
        Momma Miaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I see huge modern day miracles... and often , I have had the honor an pleasure of many out of body experiences, no drugs, no alcohol, no near death ,  and I was visited by Jesus himself and God is just the most luminous light and tranquil feeling, although I was spoken to by God....if not, I might not believe either. It changed my relationship with God an myself. However I would not expect anyone to change their thoughts....But If one is so willing to open their minds to possibilities....great things can happen.  WishingUwell         Mia

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
          Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          My mind is open to anything. Is your mind open to the possibility that you have never seen a miracle and your conversation with god was nothing more than a delusion?

          1. Momma Mia profile image79
            Momma Miaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Considering I am of very sound mind an very scientific in thoughts....  um....no  lol   But  I don't mind that you think that!
                                  wishingUwell
                                            Mia

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image60
              Jesus was a hippyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Im glad you are not offended, I wasnt implying that you are crazy, just that things are not always what they seem.

              I've had many dream for example, some of which seemed very real so it is apparent that the mind can play tricks on you.

              If you have a preconveived idea about what you are experiencing, then you will attribute that experience to that preconceived idea, even though it may not be true, your mind will convince you that you are correct.

              I personally find it hard to believe that anyone see's miracles yet noone ever manages to record one. Especially considering todays digital age.

              1. Momma Mia profile image79
                Momma Miaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have seen miracles along with witnesses.  I didnt however have the time to record. Great question although.   Myabe if more people would look for miracles they wouldnt miss them an record as well!!   Have a great 4th of July!
                                    wishingUwell
                                                Mia

  20. TMMason profile image72
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    There are apocrypha that speak of the last time Lucifer/Satan being before the throne of God, was the moment Christ died and gave up the spirit on the cross... that being the moment lucifer and his angels were cast from heaven by Michael and the Angels, never to return again... down into the world among men who had fallen for, and carried out his hateful plan against the Son Of God.

    No longer was he allowed in the presence of God to taunt and accuse Mankind. At that moment Christ returned to the right hand of God and resumed his place aside the Lord. Micheal and the Arch-angels expelled Lucifer from the Heavens as Christ was in hell redeeming the souls of the Patriarchs and all those worthy who had paid their penance.

    I know many say no one but Christ has gone to heaven.... but that discounts Christ's own words on the cross to the other two being hung aside him. Today you will be in heaven with me, and see the glory of the Word of the Lord God.

    Christ brought the truth of the Word of God to the world and they rejected it and He died for it, there-fore the liar could not enter into his presence anymore.

    But many ignore the Apocrypal texts. Nicodemus speaks of it, among others.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      the morning star cannot be connected to Lucifer
          . . . from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. -- Revelation 2:28
          It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. -- Revelation 2 2:16
      The morning star is jesus.
      To say satan in lucifer in isaiah 14 is inferred with no scripture to back it up.
      We cannot take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it. Lucifer is mentioned only once and this dictates that it is not acceptable for doctrine.

      I would be interested to know in which apocrypha or pseudo book Lucifer is mentioned. I know Lucifer is not mentioned in the enoch rubble.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      the penitent man on the cross is only recorded in luke 23:43

      There is some controversy over the placing of the comma as there is no comma in the original. Punctuations were not commonplace in the originals.

      Verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise".

      The first thing to notice is that heaven is not mentioned and your rendition is not correct. The original word is paradisos Strongs G3857 which means: an Eden (place of future happiness) An hebrew equivalent is pardec H6508: a park, forest or orchard.
      This is certainly not heaven G3772 ooranos.

      There is also no mention of the "glory of the word of the Lord God". What translation is this from? please.

      Further, the comma.
      verily i say unto thee to day, you shall be with me in paradise
      or
      verily i say unto thee, to day you shall be with me in paradise.

      If Christ meant either; (comma) to day or to day (comma) you shall... we have to ask where did Christ go? Christ went to the grave for 3 days prior his resurrection. The grave is certainly not paradise.

      BUT there is also some debate about the word TO as from Today. Notice that to day has a space. semeron is day; as an adverb the 'to' comes into question.  The definite article to is subjective, being a prefix - the, this, that, one, he, she, it. etc become relevant word choices.

      Given my choice:
      Verily i say unto thee, one day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

      what do you think of that?

      1. TMMason profile image72
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah. I have heard the coma argument a lot, Bro. I was simply para-phrasing... and probrably should have been a lil more careful in my choice of heaven and paradise... sorry... but wasn't actually caring to get into a debate of specifics, bro.

        As to that "coma", the Epositors Bible Commentary, among others, places it after "I tell you the truth,--..."  --  or, "Verily I say unto you,----...."...so I tend to agree that it is immmediate in the rewarding of.


        I do not know what Christ did in those three days, but I doubt he laid around doing nothing but sleeping. Christ may well have spent three days in Hell redeeming souls of the lost and the Patriarchs. I do not know... it is nice to ponder and speculate... but that is all it is in the end.

        So...

  21. www.lookseenow profile image59
    www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago

    None of you commenters have provided references, so your expert opinions remain just that opinions.  Where did you read, or hear that?  I reject your opinions because they would not hold up in court, because you’re either withholding evidence, or your stating an opinion that the judge would throw out. 

    Genesis 3:15 stands alone where God uttered it as a sacred secret that would not be revealed until the full limit of the times arrives.  Read my references:  (Galatians 4:4)

    Like I mentioned in another comment this thread based on Genesis 3:15 would form a theme that’s repeated thought the Bible.  You all know what a thread is, well the Bible has references.  They are called marginal references, and they’re much like links, and they form a thread, and or theme.  Spend time reading the accounts, ponder over them, and reason on them with an open mind. 

    The identity of that seed did remain a mystery, but everyone would be looking for the members of the two seeds. Remember God is dealing with the rebels, and he stated his cryptic approach the only clue we had at that time was the   enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

    Abraham was the first to receive an important clue, now here’s another reference, look it up an prove to yourself Its (Genesis 22:15-18) Abraham would be used to present seed that would depict the enmity between his seed, and her seed. 

    The showdown—the bruising of his seed in the head, is way into the future over a thousand years.  (Revelation 20:1)

    Do research before you make opinionated comments.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      revelation 20:1 has nothing to do with bruising anyones or anythings head

      genesis 22:15  Adam to abraham 2,000 yrs went by. This verse is not connected to genesis 3:15 either. The seed being talked about are generations of Hebrews.

      Eve had cain and abel... what about seth? not the right seed for you?

      do research before you make opinionated comments

  22. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    Some one said, Jesus visited her so we do not have to doubt as we do not know if it in vision, dream or what? However, other have made such claims yet they only contributed to the confusion. For instance, the founder of "later day saints" claimed that Jesus visited him yet other Christain sects speak bad of their doctrine. So visitation is a personal experince. It seems people are not sure when Satan joined the stage.Maybe he was made to balance God since we can't have good without bad if everything is dual

  23. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    People claim that the serpent is Satan but we are not brusing satans head like the verse stated between man and the serpent instead we blame him for all bad things. Again the same satan presented himself in heaven as a son of God. We just dnt get it. The fact remains that we have the right to choose a religious path that works for us so some of us can write more scriptures someday. Bible was written by man but it is said God inspired it so God wrote it while we know its funny for the bible conflicts itself.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      whats your favorite conflict?

  24. empoweredlady profile image61
    empoweredladyposted 5 years ago

    This is a very interesting topic, I was mesmerized  for a while reading all this. But I came to the conclusion that we do not know or understand the workings of God. God is not limited by what is in the bible only,he is still working and talking today. Be aware that the bible was put together by men with their own views just like you and me who did the best they could to preserve what they believed was the truth.

    They probably argued with each other as well until they reached a compromise. As we argue over what is in the bible and what is not it really does not matter, what matters most is having a relationship with this God that is written about so that you will know the truth for yourself and not depend on what others thought was right. The bible is a guide that will help us descern the right and wrong things of life but the way God works is a realm only him can reveal to each one of us according to his will. We are all unique and our views will be different but should agree on the most important thing which is God exists and how he works is determined by him.

    There are many secrets of heaven and they are all not written down, I wonder what it would be like if everything that Jesus Christ did was on paper, how long will it take us to read it. We have to know that most of these scriptures which we read today are a summary of the happenings of that time, so we should not dismiss everything as rubbish. God is vast and his dimensions are even wider than we can comprehend.

    Do not be deceived and think that there is no Satan or demons they are there and they are real though we were given power over them they can still hurt us if we are not living the life of righeousness. We are the only ones that give them a legal right into our lives by selfish desires. Everything on this earth is serving a purpose.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "Be aware that the bible was put together by men with their own views just like you and me who did the best they could to preserve what they believed was the truth".

      and who were these men: Moses... I don't think he had any trouble writing the truth down... Isaiah... number one prophet in the bible.. don't think he argued with anybody, Ezekiel.. no way his visions are compromised... David wrote the psalms... and a good job too... NT... the disciples of Jesus wrote these.. don't think they had a problem with content... Luke wrote acts... good ol boy he was... Paul wrote many of the epistles... Im sorry but i don't see how any of the writers had any problems with content.

  25. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    I was just chatted with a friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness. He tried to tell me that other Christians do not understand the bible because they do not know how to get the true meaning. He said Jesus is not God that other Christians are wrong on that. He also said that paradise will come to earth. He told me that his proves are from the bible. But we all know that other Christians use the same bible to support their claim. So why the conflict if the bible is so clear and straight to the point? The issues are that the writers expressed what the belief and it is not easy to fix different views. So if the bible is not in conflict those that use it will have no proves or claim to conflict

  26. empoweredlady profile image61
    empoweredladyposted 5 years ago

    True none of the writers had a problem with content, the reason being that they were inspired to write their experiences or whre shown visions and asked to write what they saw. Clearly the people  who wrote the bible where functioning from a different realm than were most of us function from.

    Who Satan is was revealed to those who seeked to know the truth, it is only God who knows all things from the beginning to their end it was him who created all thing as we read in Col 1:16.

    So how revelation comes to people is summed up by the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2 :6-14, many of these things we argue about needs us to start looking at things from God's point of view that is using the eyes of the spirit instead of the flesh.

    1 Cor 1 :14 talks about how you can not descern the things of the spirit with the natural mindset. First a human being is a spirit who has a soul and dwells in a body which gives us the legal ground to be on this earth. So our first call is to allow the Holy Spirit to work together with our spirit and soul so that can show us how we can function like God.

    God created us to function on this earth like him, to be co-creators with him, we were given the mandate to be fruitful and fill the whole earth through the intructions given to Adam, but there is a battle and that battle is for the control of the functioning of the soul.For this is the basis of who a human being is, if you are able to control your mind and keep it in line with God's way,if we give the Holy Spirit permission to work in us then we will operate like God but if we refuse then we have given permission for negative entities to take that space and operate through our soul. Instead of fulfilling destiny we will fall into the opposite of what God created us to be.

  27. empoweredlady profile image61
    empoweredladyposted 5 years ago

    I was just chatted with a friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness. He tried to tell me that other Christians do not understand the bible because they do not know how to get the true meaning.

    The things of God are straight forward they are revealed by his Spirit according to 1Cor 1:12Now(U) we have received not(V) the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

    True many of us Christian try to read the word of God without the Spirit of God guiding and teaching us that is why there is so much confusion and disagreements. If the Holy Spirit teaches you as you read the bible you will find that the information will be consistent with what he is teaching the next person. This is called confirmation of the word of God.

    The bible is like a puzzle that you have to put different peieces together inorder to come up with a beautiful picture so if you do not know which peices to put together you will mis it and if is frustrating. It is good to listern to critics as it will help us correct the mistakes that others are seeing and we are not.

    Joshua 1 :1-9 tells us to meditate upon this word. That is the only way we will know the truth. Most of Christians today depend on what they heard someone else teach, we are too lazy to study the word for ourseleves that's why we end up being fed wrong information and manipulated in the process.It is time for us to wake up and be like Jesus.

  28. GrowingDeeper profile image60
    GrowingDeeperposted 5 years ago

    brotheryochanan, i will have to slightly disagree with you about the passage in Isaiah 14.

    I also believe that Ezekiel 28 supports Isaiah 14. But, also Lucifer means day star or one spreading brightness not morning star. And, Is 14 says "son of the morning". Read Job 38:7 which speaks of the "stars of the morning" and "the sons of God" before the Creation of the Earth. Nearly every commentator agrees this was another name for some level or grouping of angels, probably cherubim as Lucifer is described as being.  It also says "how thou art fallen" in relation to the "son of the morning", Lucifer. Christ never has fallen, so this could not be referring to Christ in the passage in Isaiah. This is where we get that Satan is a fallen angel. The title in its literal sense is used to describe a king of babylon yet to reign. Babylon being the world-system whos ruler will be the anti-christ whom Satan will indwell. He falls in the sense he is wise, powerful, persuasive-all things that could have been used for good but his pride prevails and he chooses to go against God-just like Satan did (notice the I will's of Is. 14).

    No doubt Christ is The Bright and Morning Star of Revelation. In the OT, Christophanies were often in the form of The Angel of The Lord of Jehovah. Stars are used at times as a metaphor for an angel or messenger of God (Revelation 1:20). Revelation 22:16, Jesus is referring back to the OT specifically to  Isaiah 11. He is now King in the New Jerusalem. Hence, He claims to be the root of David, not the Son of God or other NT identifications as the Messiah was supposed to be of the lineage of David. He says He sent His angel or messenger again an OT reference to the Christophanies. Christ is speaking OT language in the New Jerusalem about His current status as King.
     
    Christ will be The Bright and Morning Star when He rightly takes the throne of David (root of David) in New Jerusalem and God gives Him this title to exalt Him above the phony anti-christ who has this name back in Isaiah. Christ will be the authentic Morning Star who expels the darkness forever from off the face of the earth not just a word picture of a star because of the "brilliance" or brightness anti-christ/satan possesses in his created form.

    So, it is quite possible to believe Is 14 does refer to Satan when viewed in totality of Scripture and doctrine no longer becomes an issue. It simply must be looked into well below the surface. The Word is has much more meaning than just surface level reading. We are not to only postulate our own interpretations of it, but with much deep study and reflection under the influence of the Holy Spirit, we can gain insight that may not first be noticed.

    This is not the most well written reply, but I just wanted to present the Scriptural views. I might sort out my mumbo-jumbo clutter of thoughts and present them in a Hub along with other details that support my position. Hope this helps in some capacity

  29. 60
    ibneahmadposted 5 years ago

    Satan never lived in heaven; he always lived in hell.

  30. Adekayero Tutuola profile image61
    Adekayero Tutuolaposted 5 years ago

    Everyone, please read Revelation 12:7-9 and Isaiah 14:12-14

  31. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    Those that quote bible verses and ask that it be read, does it mean or do they think there verses that have not been read by men? People read the bible and get different meaning out of it and they claim that God interpreted the verses to them yet its in conflict. Some said Satan never lived in heave. But it was said he was one of the angels so I wonder if he lived in hell then.Some people claim God inspired or Authored the bible but we know that some are stories that is claimed to happened yet its difficut.

 
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