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How do you make the idea of hell match up with that of love?

  1. mathsciguy profile image59
    mathsciguyposted 5 years ago

    I typically prefer to deal in quantifiable subjects, but this is a thought that resurfaced in my mind recently and was one of the first thoughts that led to my de-conversion from Christianity some years ago.

    So, how does the idea of hell fit into the supposition that God is, by definition (since God IS love, according to the Bible) loving and, presumably, merciful.  As I understood it, hell was to be the eternal punishment for those who rebelled against God and his salvation through Jesus by not accepting or believing or leading wicked lives.  Now, I can understand those types of people not receiving an eternal reward in the form of everlasting life in Heaven, on a new earth, etc.  After all, that is fair - if everybody were to be allowed into heaven, then it would be full of murderers and evil people and atheists and would be a very chaotic place indeed!  But, I have always failed to see the point in torturing, for eternity, all those who do not end up in an everlasting reward - which does include even many "good" people who simply didn't have the right heart, or weren't really faithful or whatever (many seek to enter, but will not be able...).  Consider that this means that in order for a person to think of this as being just and righteous and becoming of a purely holy being, they must accept ETERNAL TORTURE of those who fail to pass beyond judgment. 

    Even humankind, which is definitely NOT holy or inherently righteous by any standards, does not condone (in general accord) the torture of criminals and murderers, but will either lock them away from the population for their lives or execute them humanely.  It just seems to me that an omnipotent and merciful being would have both the capability and desire to come up with, at the very least, a less sadistic solution than humanity's for those who are judged unworthy of paradise.  How about simply extinguishing the souls that don't make it, rather than giving them agony forever?  If I could understand a sensible reason why Christianity attributes such characteristics to its deity, then that would be one less apparent contradiction to contend with.

    1. tammybarnette profile image60
      tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hell is seperation from God and that is the agony and suffering, it is a lot like your analogy of criminals put in prison, Hell is eternal prison

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        so no flames then?  How can someone be separated from god if god is omnipresent?

        1. mathsciguy profile image59
          mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This is a valid point, Baileybear.  I've heard the hell-is-separation-from-God doctrine before, but I think perhaps the separation tammybarnette is referring to is not a separation of location, but rather a separation of spirit.  However, there are also doctrines that teach that this is what the "death" that was spoken of by God at the garden of Eden was - a death of separation from fellowship with God.
          But, that still doesn't seem to have much clout, since non-believers already don't fellowship with God and so hell wouldn't be a really awful place for them if that's all it was.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image62
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The death in the garden was physical death. Adam and eve were not spiritual beings they were made of the ground, like we are, but the difference being that God puts his spirit in us in the NT dispensation according to joel 2:23. The natural always comes first and then the spiritual. OT natural, NT spiritual.
            Eternal separation from God only happens one way, extinguishment: the second death as it is referred to in the book of revelation. The first death is of the body the second death is obliteration completely.
            What part of all creation is God gonna partition for lost souls to aimlessly wander forever and ever.. and what happiness does God get out of it? God takes no joy in the sufferings of people. He even hated doing what he did in the OT -
            Ezekiel 33:11   Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? -
            but he did it because Law requires a punishment - as do our laws today - and often out of protectiveness and because he had no other choice.
            But separation from God is impossible geographically, David said, if i go up to heaven, you are there, and if i go down to hell, you are there.. meaning there is no where to go that God is not there. The universe is in God.
            So my belief is that God out of love, destroys those who do not meet the qualifications (and there are qualifications for everything) for entrance into what God has for His children - the ones that delight to do His will - and he will certainly snuff out the workers of iniquity with maybe a slight grin.

    2. Dave Mathews profile image59
      Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      First, Hell is but a holding place for those who have died without knowing about God and Jesus and without having chosen to accept Jesus as Lord and Redeemer. The Bible tells us that Hell and Death will be tossed into the "Eternal Lake of Fire."

      The lake of fire where satan, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and all those who refuse to accept Jesus as the redeemer will be tossed into. The suffering of these people is not a physical suffering but a spiritual one for they will never be permitted to see or know God and God's love.  These spirits will have chosen their own fate by denying to recognize God as their creator and Jesus as the redeemer of all who have sinned against God.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't mean any disrespect when I ask this, but do you honestly believe that? Reading through it, it sounds so far fetched; how long did it take you to come to the point where you decided to take it seriously?

        1. Dave Mathews profile image59
          Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Emile R: Not only do I believe it but it is a substantiated fact. If you are truly seeking the truth you can find it in the Holy Bible.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Outside of Dante (who does not report anything like your vision of Hell) who else has been there and come back to substantiate the facts as you provide them? 

            Or do you mean you have visited and spoken with Satan?

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this
              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hahaha...I watched it.
                The mind is so damned creative!
                That's all I have to say...hmm
                Qwark

      2. tammybarnette profile image60
        tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Dave, that was a beautiful and on point description. Thank you for sharing

      3. 0
        jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "The suffering of these people is not a physical suffering but a spiritual one for they will never be permitted to see or know God and God's love."

        Those who never bothered to look into the nonsense of god will be in spiritual torture of not knowing god? The Christians are very funny!

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Oh yes. Christians are hilarious!

      4. mathsciguy profile image59
        mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Dave Mathews, I had actually forgotten about that.  It's from the book of Revelations, right?  So, then, this seems actually to imply that hell is NOT the same as the lake of fire...
        But, if hell is cast into the lake of fire, and all the non-believers and unredeemed are in hell, then would that mean that they go into the lake of fire along with hell?

      5. brotheryochanan profile image62
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Doesn't say 'eternal' lake of fire and are you taking the lake of fire, literally? Revelation is pretty much all metaphor, allegory, simile.

        Hell is the grave dave, sheol. Its not the catholic doctrine of eternal fires. Death and the grave... meaning there will be no more death and no more grave to those after judgment. I know it seems prudent to picture Hell going into the lake of fire, but isn't hell fire, so what benefit would it have to throw fire into fire. And if the lake is a literal lake of fire, what pain can physical fire have on a spirit? Spirits can walk around in hell all they want and the fire won't even singe them, nor can they feel heat.
        I appreciate how far you have come away from catholicism, bravo! you need to research this hell thing a bit more. in love.
        Again, what's the point of hell, there's no one in it until after judgment, which hasn't happened yet and so as soon as they are in it, they get tossed again? For it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment... people haven't gone to hell because that would mean judgment and judgment hasn't happened yet.
        food for thought bro

    3. jcnasia profile image61
      jcnasiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Mathsciguy,

      This is a tough question, and one that I probably can't articulate an answer to very well so I've found some quotes from some better thinkers than myself.  I hope you don't mind.

      This first one is from C. S. Lewis
      .
      Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud.

      I think what he is getting at is that hell is the logical and natural outcome of being self-centered instead of God-centered.

      The next person I want to bring into this discussion is Tim Keller, a pastor in New York City who has worked hard to make his church accessible and relevant to skeptics.

      He wrote an article called the "Importance of Hell"
      http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events … _hell.html

      and he had 4 main points about why it's important.

      1.  It is important because Jesus taught about it more than all other Biblical authors put together.
      2.  It is important because it shows how infinitely dependent we are on God for everything.
      3.  It is important because it unveils the seriousness and danger of living life for yourself.
      4.  The doctrine of hell is important because it is the only way to know how much Jesus loved us and how much he did for us.

      I think his explanation of the last point in the article is central to understanding how a loving God and hell can co-exist.

      1. mathsciguy profile image59
        mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Love C.S. Lewis and his way of thinking outside the typically canonical box.  Still, seems like the idea of hell being what grows inside of you after ignoring God for long enough is somewhat unsupported by any actual scripture.  I agree that it is a very appealing and poetic perspective, however.

        1. jcnasia profile image61
          jcnasiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          In the article I linked to, Tim Keller attempts to make a Biblical case for that kind of hell.  It's worth reading if you're interesting.

    4. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hell is that world which you create for yourself, with help from everyone you've ever known. It is a chain which is forged, link by link, which you wear in the here and now. What comes after you draw your last breath has nothing to do with a material place. In the creation of Genesis, hell is not on the list, and God steps back, takes a good look, and declares everything good. Get a grip, qwark, you aren't an anti-evangelist, so why try to bait believers just so you can pick on 'em and laugh at them...then you want people to see things your way. Don't hold your breath.

      1. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Druid:
        Yep I do bait. smile:

        I also "KNOW" exactly what the responses will be.

        Naw, it'd be a waste of my time to try to convert anyone.

        It was hard enuf converting me away from my religious programming.

        To try to convert a died-in-the-wool fundy would be an exercise in futility.

        Bigotry is very hard to convert to reality.

        It's too damned hot outside to "play," so why not play here?

        I'll go fishing this evening when it cools down.  smile:

        Qwark

        1. Druid Dude profile image61
          Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Once everyone realizes that we aren't merely individuals here to drain this world dry of all resources and stamp out the tenuous hold we all, every living thing, has on life. Everything is inter-connected. The whole world is our eco-system, not just your spot in it. (Not you personally, qwark.) The planets and stars, galaxies. Everything is interconnected. It is this that I speak to and about.

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Druid:
            No doubt about it!
            We are but a natural momentary "happening."
            If a "sun" hadn't exploded somewhere out there, we would not be enjoying, for this moment, life!
            We are "stardust!"
            Qwark

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Aussies would use the term "bulldust". lol

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'll leave the answer to that to "Aussie Earn." smile:
                Qwark

                1. aka-dj profile image79
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I guess you don't know what that is then? hmm

                  1. qwark profile image60
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Bullsh!t!
                    Qwark

              2. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No, stardust is accurate. Enough empirical evidence to sink religion, which is why not one single religionist has challenged the work of Lawrence Krauss and other such great minds of science. smile

                1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I like the part where he blunders through an indoctrination that the essence of stars just happened to end up in our bodies.
                  talk about blind faith lol

                  1. earnestshub profile image89
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes I can see you are an expert on Lawrence Krauss! lol

  2. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    <---gets popcorn and grabs a seat for the fireworks lol

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, Cagsil - I know you are wondering, and I am going to confirm your suspicions.  I am a masochist.  Of the mental kind... ???

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No such notion crossed by mind. Not once. lol
        Okay, if you say so. But, that does explain a lot, which I am definitely not going to get into in this thread. I'd rather not be accused of hi-jacking your thread. lol

        1. mathsciguy profile image59
          mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well, you know, you are free to comment as you like.  It's not really "my" thread, after all.  I have learned that following a forum in the Religion and Beliefs category is a great way to completely fill your inbox, though...

          1. brotheryochanan profile image62
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            lol
            thanks!
            good one

  3. dutchman1951 profile image60
    dutchman1951posted 5 years ago

    Follow the Old testimate!!!!!!

    The church has been trying to sell that psychotic relationship for centuries!

  4. wilderness profile image97
    wildernessposted 5 years ago

    The omnipotent and omniscient creature known as God created man in such a manner that the vast majority of mankind is predestined (through Gods omniscience) never to enter heaven.

    God must do something else with the malcontents He created in such a way as to be unable to enter heaven, but is unable, in His omnipotence, to simply destroy them.  Rather he must put them somewhere and, in His omnipotence, cannot create another such place.

    Therefore He puts us into Hell, run by His arch-enemy whom He cannot destroy, either.  Being unable, in His omnipotence, to destroy or change hell, He will therefore love us while He allows us to be tortured for eternity.

    God - the omnipotent being that cannot act but loves us even as we are tortured due to His incompetence.

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's exactly what I thought!!
      Now, I'm really counting on some Christians to come through for me and explain this - preferably in a way that doesn't totally destroy any semblance of rationality that they have.

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Math,

        You used Christian and rationality in the same sentence? lol Good luck with that.....

        I'm going to still sit back with my popcorn and watch this. lol

        1. mathsciguy profile image59
          mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          We'll see, I suppose, won't we?  Who knows, maybe there's a Christian out there with an answer that will make some sort of sense. 

          Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.  No takers yet, but I think you may have the opportunity to put that popcorn to good use before much longer.

      2. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        it will never happen math!  Folks drop into scripture and its off the races, round and round they go.

      3. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's easy.  Although God knows everything and thus knows the future Mankind has free will and can change his choices at any time which will not affect the future because God will then know the new future that man cannot change because God is omniscient.  Got it?

        Because we have free will we are able to choose to suffer an eternity of Hell and thus do so by the billions.  But God loves us and would not do that to us so Hell is not as we were taught but a place of teaching and learning (this is where the 72 virgins come into the plot) so that we can go to heaven and because Satan is really an angel he will facilitate that learning process with the torture that doesn't really happen so that he will not be able to torture us any more.  Still with me here?

        After the eternity of torture with the virgins is over we will go to live with the God whose incompetence started the whole thing wrong and whose omnipotence made it impossible for him to change.  As you, the mathsciguy, already understand infinity and therefore eternity I should not have to explain how this part works.

        I want some popcorn.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          72 virgins is not a Biblical concept.
          It comes from Islam. It doesn't help to confuse the two. hmm

        2. mathsciguy profile image59
          mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What an interesting take on the whole situation...

          I personally kind of like the one where Christianity is actually a test to see who doesn't get into heaven - after all, for a person to be okay with worshiping Christianity's God, they have to think that it is praiseworthy and totally alright to subject dissidents to torment forever.  Whatever happened to "do unto others?"  So, the people who decide that this is the religion for them are the ones who actually, by means of this clever test, don't get to spend eternity with all the other non-torturing souls of the heathen.

          smile

          But, as I said, perhaps some Christian will give a defense that will be illuminating and change my mind about that point.

        3. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And so it begins, just as predicted.  A.S.K.Preacher explains that we go to hell as a result of choices made.  It is our choice, to be made in spite of Gods will. 

          Tammy says that there is no suffering while Dave confirms that the "Lake of Fire" is eternal forever while agreeing with Tammy that it won't hurt at all.

          aka-dj complains that the 72 virgins is not a biblical concept, but does acknowledge that it is a religious concept in Islam (that shares the same history with Christianity).  All we need is an actual muslim to confirm.

          All that is left is to discover that Hell is actually purgatory and after repenting we will be let out to go to God - I'm sure that will be explained as soon as we can find someone of the Catholic persuasion.

          Do I not understand the religious mind?  Is it not predictable?

          1. tammybarnette profile image60
            tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You have misunderstood, It will hurt a lot!!! Seperation from God is torture, when Jesus cried out from the cross,Lord why have you forsaken me, it was the seperation he felt which was far worse than the torture he had suffered from mankind. It is a choice, it is freewill. I choose to go to heaven. Jesus said, there are two roads, choose wisely.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I beg to differ.  Jesus said those words because his flesh was in unimaginable pain and God seemed to be paying no attention and refused to help.

              I have suffered isolation from God my entire adult life, ever since I grew out of the baseless and irrational beliefs of childhood, but there has never been any pain from that separation.  Like I said, it won't hurt.

              1. tammybarnette profile image60
                tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No, I am sorry, you are wrong. He would have been saying that over and over for hours if it were physical pain, it was only when he had to feel that pain of seperation that he cried out. I am sorry you feel that God has not been there for you, but have you asked? God is a loving God, there is no other feeling in the world that compares.

                1. Cagsil profile image84
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol lol lol

                  1. tammybarnette profile image60
                    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you find God's pain funny?

                2. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Perhaps he did say it over and over, keeping it under his breath in order not to disgrace himself.  Finally the pain became too great and the disgrace faded into the background along with everything else but the pain.  That sort of thing is common under long and intense suffering such as crucifixion.

                  1. tammybarnette profile image60
                    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    And you would know this how? Have you felt this pain?

                3. mathsciguy profile image59
                  mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  OK, so here is some support for the doctrine of reference to Psalm 22.
                  Firstly, nowhere in any of the accounts of Jesus' crucifixion does it ever mention that "God turned his back on Jesus and left him."  It does, however, say that Jesus spoke the words "Eli eli lama sabachthani" which means "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me."  Many assume this to imply that Jesus thought (and, by virtue of his presumable connection to God, knew for a fact) that God had actually forsaken him.

                  Unfortunately for those people, the book of Hebrews explicitly states that God "will never leave you nor forsake you."  Therefore, it cannot be as is popularly assumed.  Take the alternate doctrine that Jesus was, in fact, quoting the 22nd Psalm - which contains many references to the ordeal through which he was enduring.  Some of these references follow:

                  "But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people"
                  "All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying     He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. " 
                  "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. "
                  "My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. "
                  "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

                  But, that's just a guess...

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image62
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It is true that God will never leave us nor forsake us.
                    Jesus is a different situation during the cross. Notice that jesus said, "my GOD, my GOD... this is the only time that jesus called the father God and indeed, God had withdrawn himself from jesus because Jesus was about to have the sins of the world put upon him. This is the part jesus strained about so earnestly in the garden of gethsemane prior to his betrayal be judas. So yes God left Jesus because it was necessary to do just that.
                    But in reference to God never leaving nor forsaking His people.. this is true. Many church fathers (ot) went through tough ordeals and situations, but God came through with all his promises then and he will for us now.
                    But jesus is a different situation while on the cross.

          2. brotheryochanan profile image62
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The differences of theology is based upon:
            a) peoples acceptance of what they are told: Some do not question the authority of the church and so listen and parrot, right or wrong they are happy.
            b) amount of study time: Some people have families, work long hours. yknow we sleep 1/3 of our lives, work another 1/3 that leaves 1/3 for everything else.
            c) pursuits of study: Some have not studied certain topics at all.
            d) openess to revelation: Some people study Hell for example and they come to a conclusion that is different than what they have been told, but they are closed minded to the revelation and dismiss it as a bad interpretation on their part and go back to thinking like they were told
            d) pressures from the christian community: If a person comes up with a new slant on, oh say the garden of eden, or they don't believe in Satan, they can receive a lot of flack and attack from the christian community. Indeed anyone with new ideas and conclusions on old matters better be prepared to back it up!
            There's a few reasons

          3. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Wild:
            If you consider the definition of the word "inanity," as it refers to religion, yes, religion is predictable...lol
            Qwark

  5. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
    A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago

    This is not a poor reflection upon our creator. It is a choice by His creation. Ezekiel 33:11 It gives God NO PLEASURE to destroy the wicked. No we cannot work for our own salvation. Those who seek but will not be able are those who think no one can see what is happening inside.

    Our thoughts and feelings are energy. They will live on. If we are unrepentant inwardly but act differently outwardly this will be revealed when our souls are laid bare. When the secrets of our hearts are revealed.

    We have been given free will. It is not God's choice that you should suffer eternally. It is yours.

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why, then, does he not just destroy them and be done with it?

      Why the everlasting punishment?  God created plenty of peaceful critters; was mankind truly so bad that we all actually -deserve- to be tortured forever?  Even the courts of men don't make provision for such gratuitous retribution.

      1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
        A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Because energy cannot be created or destroyed. God IS. When Moses asked Him what His name was God replied with, "I AM." Science confirms that energy cannot be destroyed. When God breathed life into the dust it became a living soul.
        God spoke everything into existence. When we are done with this life if you choose to be rebellious within yourself......You will be rebellious in that life. Thought and feelings are instant reactions in that life. God will not allow chaos to reign. He seeks peace with all His creation and has given a way for eternal life, but you must intentionally seek it.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image62
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Revelation 21:5   And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
            Revelation 20:11   And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
            Revelation 21:1   And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

          Everything made can be unmade

  6. qwark profile image60
    qwarkposted 5 years ago

    I can prove that this god thing is loving!

    You see, when ya "pass," this god thing cradles ya in his , omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent "Arnie" type arms, peers intently into your fearful eyes, puckers up, leans forward and kisses you softly and caringly on your sweating forhead, he then leans back, and again, gazes meaningly and purposely into your questioning eyes...and in a booming powerful voice that causes the environment to quake and rumble, he ANNOUNCES his LOVE for you thusly: :I LOVE YOU!!!........YOU HEDONISTIC,TREACHEROUS, SINFUL, WORTHLESS  LITTLE DEFICATION FROM THE ANUS OF A CAMEL!" 

    His voice echoes mightily thru the fiery halls of "hades" as he lovingly tosses you into its fiery abysses where you wail and cry in painful agony for eternity!

    ...but this "god thing" said: "I love you!"

    When this "god thing" says sumthin', that's all the proof ya need!

    Debate to the contrary would be fruitless!!

    He then turns and says, lovingly: "Who's next?"

    The "god thing" hath spoken!

    Qwark                lol lol lol lol...etc., etc.......

    1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
      A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Imangine Qwark if you were the creator of this universe. Assuming you are perfect, you would want everything to go by certain rules in order to keep order. Now in your universe there are those who defy you no matter what you do. What would you do?

      1. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Preacher:

        That's one of the easiest questions to answer I've been asked.

        If I were that "perfect god" and I wanted to created human beings in my image, that's exactly what I'da done.

        I'da created perfection!

        Being "perfect" myself, why would I want my creations to be anything but perfect?

        I'd be living a "perfect" life, so I'd create a perfect life for them. Anything else would be below me and being the "perfect," omniscient, ommipotent and omnipresent god that I'd be, the possibility of ME creating imperfection would be unthinkable, below my dignity and reputation...oh no! Imperfection?...IMPOSSIBLE!

        So, preacher, the god that you refer to would be an imperfect god thing which created we humans in its imperfect image....couldn't be anything else.

        Ya gotta think up harder questions for me to answer, that was no challenge.

        Qwark

        1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
          A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Qwark
          Very funny, but what you have created are robots not co-creators as God wants. If He wanted robots that is exactly what He would have done. What He wants is an intelligent helper who agrees with Him because He is right, not because He has made you so that you have no choice but to do right.

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ASK:

            Trite religious bunk coming from a programmed, religious "bot"....YOU! smile:

            Qwark

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well its true. God did not want an ant farm. He wanted something more interactive than an ant farm.
              God could not have had anything else than an ant farm if he had not given them choices.
              Its like your dog.. You don't wanna just walk around him while he has fun you want to play in that fun... but what if your dog wanted to bite you all the time? and he'd start tearin up the furniture.

  7. Trish_M profile image87
    Trish_Mposted 5 years ago

    How do you make the idea of hell match up with that of love?

    It's impossible to do so smile

    1. tammybarnette profile image60
      tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      For God so Loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believeth in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life John 3:16- This is how much God loves you, it is your choice to love him or not, freewill.

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Perish means cease to exist?  Or rot in hell?  If the latter, I wonder how many people 'choose' god out of fear

        1. mathsciguy profile image59
          mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Too many, madam bear.  And we all know that fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate... to the dark side.  Too bad I can't make myself believe that Yoda's teachings are the ultimate truth either.  That would be a sensible world.  big_smile

        2. Trish_M profile image87
          Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Probably quite a few, I'd say!

          Hi! smile

        3. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
          A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Fear causes us to change bad habits. Fear can be good. The fear of getting into trouble with your parents. How many of you as parents use some type of fear to keep your children from hurting themselves?
          Here is the unique thing about fear as punishment. Years later your son or daughter comes to you and says, "Mom, you were right, I am sorry."
          1 John 4:18 reads There is no fear in love. Perfect love casts out fear, because fear is torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

          Love has to be grown.

      2. mathsciguy profile image59
        mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This very idea used to justify the traditional idea of hell to me, since it was mankind who (supposedly) chose to go there by omission of faith and repentance.  But, this only works if you also assume that God's hands are somewhat tied in the matter - as though he really had no other alternative but to doom all the unrepentant and unworthy to eternal suffering.  It seems to me that any being that was not actually evil (doesn't even have to be a particularly "good" being, just simply not sadistic) would desire to find some other alternative that didn't require the brutal sacrifice of its own offspring and the infliction of endless agony upon the dissenters.  Even humans don't have to resort to those measures for our criminals, and we aren't even omnipotent OR all-loving.
        That's why the Christian teaching concerning God and hell was very doubt-seeding in me when I really thought about it for a while.  But, I am hoping that maybe somebody could put it to rest so that we may move on to other contradictions in ideas that I am hung up on.  It's not that I think without a doubt that Christianity is "wrong," but rather it's more that I am trying to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt.

        1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
          A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God's hands are only tied in that He gave us free will. Resorting to the extremes is God's only course of action when free will is involved. There are two verses that come to mind in this matter. Both have to be accepted as they are. Either we accept we are responsible or we do not.

          James 3:17 The wisdom from above is first pure then peacable, gentle and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.  God has given us free will and made us responsible for our actions. It is not hypocracy, therefore, if He allows us to choose and to reap the benefits of our decisions. Mostly because He is there at all times and ready to give advice and help, IF WE LISTEN.

          Romans 9:20 O man, who are you that speaks against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why have you made me this way?

          It comes down to this; God wants all to seek Him out, to find out who He is,  to come to peace rather than destruction. It must be done in this life. We are reffered to as living stones. How will you choose to be made?

      3. Trish_M profile image87
        Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Tammy smile

        I don't see how your comment responds to mine.

        A loving parent would not cause their child to endure eternal agony, so a loving God and a God-created hell cannot go together.

        1. tammybarnette profile image60
          tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Trish smile

          God does not cause people to choose the wrong path, he gave his son for all to be able to be saved, atonement for their sin, there is no greater love. I do understand what you are saying. I would do anything to protect my children from suffering any pain, even heartbreak, but they make their own choices and suffer consequences in which I have no way to protect them; from themselves.

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Tammy:

            If you were "omnipotent" you would!

            If you were omniscient you would have seen the pain and suffering your childen would suffer!

            If you were perfect, omniscient and omnipotent you would not/could not have created, in your image, living imperfection!

            Your compassion and love for your creations would be so great that the possiblity couldn't exist that you'd allow them to suffer!

            Why can YOU feel this kind of irrepressible love and compassion, but your creator cannot?

            IF YOU were "omnipotent" you would create a perfect world and perfect children because you would be filled with love and compassion for all that you create!

            Why does not, your creator share your HUMAN love and compassion for all "it" alledgedly created?

            The questions are endless!

            Qwark

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              qwark, This is the example I like to use. If you had the power to "make" someone love you, would you feel loved? God could operate everything like a game of checkers, but instead the pieces get to decide in which direction they should move. God begs us to love him, he gave his son; the only perfect human, who was tortured for the sins of all. For all, even those who question his very existence. He only wants your love, your belief, your faith. If you let him in he will change you, not your circumstances, not this world or the fate of this world, but you.

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                TAmmy:

                Naw, if your god thing had your compassion and love, "it" could have, with a wave of "its" omnipotent hand, created perfection.
                A paradise and a perfect human.

                But, it doesn't have the ability to love and the compassion of an imperfect human creature such as you.

                Pls don't make excuses for that which you are greater than!

                Qwark  smile:

            2. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              He DID do something about it. Like DDDDAAAAHHH.
              Like, THIS, MAYBE, just MAYBE???

              http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/jesus-crucified.jpg


              But you are the cause of all the circular arguments! You have all the information you need to know about God, Jesus, salvation, suffering, love, eternity etc etc etc. . .. BUT refuse to accept any of it. It's all opinion, and triteness to you. They call that wilful blindnes/ignorance. sad

              1. getitrite profile image80
                getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                That's just an actor, from a movie, about a fairytale.
                I think make-believe should be left to children.

                1. aka-dj profile image79
                  aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Think what you like.
                  You are a free thinker, after all! big_smile

          2. mathsciguy profile image59
            mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            tammybarnette, let me ask a question which I think may be illuminating for us both.  Who determines the wages of sin?  We all know that the price is Death.  But why is that?  And why is the only solution to cast those who do, for various reasons, choose to go their own way into a place of relentless agony?

            Wouldn't it be much more merciful, even assuming that Death is the necessary outcome, to simply extinguish the soul and thereby prohibit its enjoyment of paradise?  To me, the accepted idea about hell is reminiscent of a man with a house infested by rats.  Okay, so the rats have got to go.  But instead of trapping them humanely, or even just outright poisoning them, the man captures all of them and sticks them in a roaster - forever - knowing that they won't ever die of it, but will just be in horrific pain everlasting.

            I am curious about what your thoughts on this are?

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Math, there is only good if there is evil; there is only up if there is down. God created a paradise but because of mankind that changed. I imagine this broke God's heart. I have tried everything humanley possible to teach my children to do right and I have suffered great heartache for their bad decisions, I can only imagine how God must have felt. God wants us to choose to love him. It is beyond me as to why anyone wouldn't, but I am seeing many do not.

              I like your idea about the extinquished soul, but tis not the case and we all know the consequences of our action or inaction. As I have said before, my belief is the eternal pain is not physical burning, it's seperation from the Father, and that is a choice.

          3. Trish_M profile image87
            Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, quite. You want to protect your children.

            I can imagine that parents, who have tried to bring their children up well, would be horrified if they then committed a crime which warranted severe punishment ~ the death penalty, for example.

            But can you imagine parents, who would, themselves, insist upon the death penalty for their child, not for murder, or rape, or mugging, etc, but simply for not accepting what they say?

            This sort of thing does, sadly, occur in some religious communities, but it is usually illegal. Yet 'God' is worshiped, while, supposedly, doing something similar.

            If God created us, then he created us as we are, so why should we be tortured, by 'our loving heavenly father', for being ourselves?

            1. getitrite profile image80
              getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Trish,

              I can't understand how believers, in the concept of hell, just can't see the brutal, insane injustice in  this line of REASONING...instead they choose to WORSHIP it!

              I totally agree.

            2. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              how many women have been murdered with 'honour killings' by a brother or father because a woman was no longer a virgin?  (apparently it is her fault if she got raped too)

              1. Trish_M profile image87
                Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Quite so, Baileybear smile
                And it is illegal and criticised ~ yet, according to the Bible, God did the same sort of thing ~ and he is worshiped and adored.

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Trish, I understand what you are saying completely, But God does give us the choice. He does not say he wants us to choose Hell, He wants us to choose life, it is in our complete control.

                  I love my children so much, and I love mankind, but as an imperfect human being I would never sacrifice my children for the world to be saved, but God did do this for us, paid our sins in full, all we have to do is choose to love him, it's that easy, He made it that easy for us because we are imperfect sinners who can not go a single day without sinning, that is how much He loves us all.

        2. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You seem to have missed the whole point(s). (There are two)
          1; God did not create hell for His children. It was for a guy with horns (not really, but that's how many perceive him). So ,NO child has ever got to go there.
          2; Even loving, caring parents in this world cannot prevent (some) children becoming murderers, drug dealers, etc, or to commit suicide. God has given people a way out. Being in this forum will baltantly awaken you to the fact that many WILL not take up the option to escape the inevitable.

          We idiots are here hoping to wake a few up, but, so far with little success.
          Which group has the better motive? Which group has the stronger determination? hmm

          1. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            yet your all-powerful, all-knowing god managed to create humans, set them up to fail, all along knowing they would, and would end up sending them all to hell (blaming it on them for sinning).    Clearly god has no power over this satan/devil if so many souls get disposed of.  Why bother making a bunch of humans to send to hell if you knew this would happen?

            The only thing inevitable that you can't escape is that you die.
            Any life after, heaven or hell is not inevitable.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image62
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              how do you figure he set them up to fail? If God had used a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil, would he not have put in the far corner and surrounded it by thick bush? Why would he allow a possessed snake to have dialogue slandering Him? Why wasn't the tree of life in the center of the garden? Where was that?
              You are arguing a point you don't even believe in and perhaps you are doing this just out of habit. The garden experience is not what you think. Move on and get on with it.

          2. Trish_M profile image87
            Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Inevitable??!!

            1. Ok, well, for one, I do not believe in hell, or Satan, so I do not believe that God made hell.

            2. Believers invented hell and inhabited it with Satan and anyone who did not agree with their beliefs ~ on the basis that this is what God wants ~ ie. Believers think that they have the right to be in Heaven, but that doubters do not.

            They believe that God would create us all, as we are, with brains to think and to doubt, etc, but that, though he loves us all, he would send the doubters and disbelievers into eternal agony and torment!

            What kind of loving father would do that!?
            What kind of 'good Christian mind' would believe that?!

            Remember, we are not talking about 'murderers, drug dealers, etc,' ~ they can repent at the last minute and get intio heaven ~ we are talking about kind, decent people, who happen to see that lack of logic in (certain aspects of) Christianity.
            Do they really deserve to burn, or rot, in eternal damnation?!



            It is not about that, as far as I am concerned. It is about considering the evidence and drawing conclusions. A forum like this is a place to discuss those conclusions, because it is an interesting subject. That's all smile

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Believers do not believe they deserve heaven, Believers know that none of us deserve heaven or forgiveness or mercy. God did not set us up to fail. He created us in his image and we failed. However, because He loves us so much He made a way, Jesus Christ, for us to be forgiven and wiped clean of our sins. This eternal burning is seperation from the Father, not physical pain, emotional heart wrenching awareness. We are all here together with all of the same information in order to make our choices, freewill, it is our option.

              1. getitrite profile image80
                getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I think believers deserve better than that #%$@!%!

                If you are honest, and you really think about it...HEAVEN SUCKS!!!

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Heaven is wonderful, No pain, No tears, all things working together, loving together, paradise. Heaven is that place that all of you seem to be saying this world should be. The place of eternal love, No death, No suffering. None of us deserve this paradise as we are sinners, But the loving Father has made a way for all to come.

                  1. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You know, you should seriously speak for yourself. By speaking for people who you do not know, leads people to think that you are delusional. Just because YOU are a sinner, doesn't make everyone else a sinner as well.

                    Last time I checked, your religion says that Jesus died for the sinners of the world. Therefore, all are saved. There are no sinners, unless YOU have sinned and are admitting to doing so. If so, then YOU ask for forgiveness. You don't have a right to claim other people are sinners, when in fact you don't actually know.

                    Just a thought.

                  2. getitrite profile image80
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    A place like that would take away the meaning of life.



                    I don't think that's accurate.



                    Only WISHFUL thinking, unfortunately----sad.



                    And all we have to do is, slavishly, worship Him for all eternity when we get there.  I would go MAD before the first year of everlasting life expired.

  8. qwark profile image60
    qwarkposted 5 years ago

    Anyone who believes that anything in the bible is "substantiated" fact, is a "substantiated" fool! hmm

    Qwark

    1. tammybarnette profile image60
      tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      quark, just wanted to let you know I haven't slipped out the back, I went to bed, I have a family and a life outside of the pages. I would love to have a deeper discussion, however at this time I am doing things with my children(life). However, when I have time I will gladly have a discussion with you unless you are like cags, only interested in hearing yourself speak and trying to condemn others with opinions outside of your own. If a real discussion is intended, I am more than open.

      1. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Tammy:

        A discussion about?

        I am an "ignostic." Pls check the definition.

        you first have to define this "god thing" in other than opinion based on naught but "hope."

        If you can't do that, there is "nothing" to discuss.

        There are, worlddwide, almost 40,000 differing protestant sects, intepretations, cults et al, all claiming to have the correct interpretations of the "bible" and your god thing...and the numbers are increasing everyday.

        Of course the vatican says it has the correct answers.

        Your bible doesn't define this god in a form other than an opinion. If you can do it, we'll chat.

        Qwark

        1. tammybarnette profile image60
          tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How, would you like me to define God? What is your preference, would you like to have a philsophical discussion? Explain what you mean by define?

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            TAmmy:
            I'm a speaker of English. It's my native language.
            Check your dictionary for the defintion of the word "definition" and we'll use that as a starter.
            Qwark

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I guess my humor is lost on you, my asking you to define the word definition is as absurd as you asking me to define God. I can share thoughts, but this is not what you intend, I'm guessing, so I guess we have nothing to discuss. I will leave you with this thought, we shall all see one day:) Thanks

          2. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Tammy:
            English is my native language.
            Check an English dectionary for a definition of the word "define."
            Once ya've got it, we'll begin there IF ya can "define this "god thing" in a form other than baseless opinion.
            If ya can do that, then, I'll ask for proof of "its" existence in a form other than it being a metaphysical, abstract concept created by man.
            If ya can do it, by golly we'll chat.
            Pls, oh pls don't quote scripture!
            Qwark

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              quark, The definition of God is also in your english speaking dictionary, I thought you wanted to have a philisophical/ religious discussion as has been pointed out to me to be the label of this forum.

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Tammy:

                Pls explain how one can have a "philisophical/ religious discussion," if one side can't define what the "discussion" going is going to be about and the other side  is waiting for a definition of the subject the other can't provide?

                Clear that up for and me first ..ok?

                Ty

                Qwark

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Your opinions are based on what? Scientific fact? I could say the dictionaries definition of the word definition is just an opinion based on nothing. We are just doing a circular dance and I am bored. So back to my fun life, have a great day:)

                  1. tammybarnette profile image60
                    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    qwark, if I have misinterpreted your tone, which happens in this form of conversation, Please look up- www.doesgodexist.org- There you can find scientific proof, if that is what you are truly searching for; I am a christian and I do truly want for all to know my God and his love, but arguing silly points is not going to help. I hope you have a great day , it's far too beautiful outside to waste more time on this computer smile

                  2. qwark profile image60
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ty Tammie:

                    You proved my point with trite eloquency!

                    In my 68 yrs of questioning and study, there has not yet been one, not one!...believer in this god thing that could define "it" for me.

                    You were the last who couldn't.

                    There'll be more, 'cause I'll keep asking...just to be amused.

                    You didn't even give it a try Tammie!...and you?...a fundie believer!

                    I'm here if ya think ya might like to try again. But I already "KNOW" the chances of that happening: ZILCH!  lol

                    Qwark

      2. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't speak to hear myself speak. But, it is certainly nice of you to show your condescending side. Good to know for future communications.

        1. qwark profile image60
          qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Cags:

          I'm trying to figure out what it is she wants to discuss.

          Nothing has been defined yet.

          We'll see...wink:

          Qwark

          1. tammybarnette profile image60
            tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            quark, define you, GO!

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              please do not describe, give characterisitics, or use biology, but define yourself

            2. qwark profile image60
              qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hahaha...I'll respectfully decline! smile:

              I'd have to dedicate a yr or 2 to composing a book about 1000 pages long to do that.

              But thanks for asking...much appreciated.

              Now lets see, without writing a book, lets get back to you offering a well thought out, well reasoned, logical response to my question about providing a definition of this god thing you'd like to speak of, in a form other than a baseless opinion. OK?


              Then you can offer, for clarification and potential conversion, your proof of what you have defined, factually about this "god thing."

              Once we've got that behind us, by golly, we can sit over a cuppa coffee and "jar" (no, to jar would be to clash, we don't wanna do that) so we can "chat" to our hearts content! smile:

              That's an invite ya can't refuse! smile:

              Go for it!

              Qwark

              1. tammybarnette profile image60
                tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Qwark, interesting that you believe it would take you, a man, a book inwhich to define yourself, well, there is a book that will define God for you, written over 2000 years ago. Read this book and get back with me, we will have a nice chat and a cup of joe smile

                1. qwark profile image60
                  qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Tammy:
                  Awe c'mon! Give me some credit!

                  I didn't just read it! In my 20's, in baptist seminary (2 1/2) yrs, I studied it!

                  Why do ya think I'm an ignostic today?

                  Goodness woman!

                  It turned me to "Atheism!"

                  Then when I got smarter, I realized that there are no atheists only those who haven't done their homework and think they are...like me in the "good-ole-days."

                  Atheists reject/deny the existence of gods!

                  In my old age...smile:, I realized there's no god/s to reject or deny...soooo...I became an ignostic!

                  Now lets bet back to the question: "what the heck is this 'god thing' ya keep mentioning?

                  Are ya up to it? No opinions now! They're only worth about a dime a dozen!...and in todays economy, I can't even buy a stick of my favorite bubble gum with a dime!

                  C'mon dig deep! ...once ya got it, I'll brew the "joe." Deal?

                  Go for it! smile:

                  Qwark

                  1. tammybarnette profile image60
                    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    qwark, You want me to define something without ant resources in which to do so. I can give you my testimony, I can give you theology, I can give you opinion, description, characteristics too many to count. But, if you have read the bible you know all of this, except my own testimony and belief. God is love, that is it in a nut shell, God is love smile

        2. tammybarnette profile image60
          tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Cags, not being condescending, stating a fact of the conversation we shared. If you would like to quit attacking and have a discussion( which means sharing your thoughts and not merely repeating the opposite of others original thought) Then, I will discuss with anyone. I am open minded, intelligent, kind and truly interseted in facts you may have to offer. If more arguing is what you would like, speak with someone who would enjoy that conversation:)

  9. 0
    Muldanianmanposted 5 years ago

    The idea of hell developed from the physical reality of Gehenna, located outside ancient Jerusalem in the location known as the valley of the son of Hinnom.  This was where apostate Israelites and followers of Ba'al sacrificed their children by throwing them into the fire.

    Only later, did this real place come to represent the destination of the wicked.  The King James version of the bible translates Sheol/Hades, the Greek nether-world, which was a neutral home of the dead and Gehenna by using the same Anglo-Saxon word - hell, thus confusing the two ideas.  Thus Jesus is described in some versions of the bible as descending into hell for three days before his resurrection.  This originally referred to Hades, not the fiery hell of later Christianity.

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Ah!  A person with a multi-lateral perspective.  Very enlightening Muldanianman, thanks much for the clarification.

      It's always quite interesting to investigate the evolution, so to speak, of theological and religious concepts.  Sort of puts the hallmark of humanity on the cosmic, doesn't it?

      By the way, where did you look to find that info?  I am always conducting a kinda back-burner search for good references on religious history.

  10. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 5 years ago

    I really don't want to quote your 238 references for sake of saving space on the page, but in response to it, I say;
    At least you have a good grasp on the fate of the wicked, the hateful, the murderers, the unbelieving et-all. I'm sure that everyone here will be without excuse on the day of Judgement. Noe of you will be able to say "but Lord, we didn't know!!!"

    Thanks earnestshub. Job well done.

    1. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You're welcome.

      I just wanted to indicate the sort of psychotic rot and threats the bible offers from an "omniscient" god.

      Explain to me again why this weak-kneed little psychopath should run my life?

    2. 0
      Muldanianmanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I think your point may have been missed earnestshub.

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, I believe you are right. smile

    3. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You're welcome DJ.
      I wanted to show how much "love" is available to those who read their good book. smile

      Job done I reckon.

      You have a funny idea of what love is. smile

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Love is;

        http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/jesus-crucified.jpg

        But, you would't understand how this could be.

        That's OK, millions DO! big_smile

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Is that an actual photo?

          Show me a word he wrote, show me some proof that he ever was, explain the billions of unanswered prayers, explain the hate and fear, explain how this isn't all generated by that fear, explain why a sane entity would have "inspired" such hate or needed to.

          After that, I have a few thousand other questions you can't answer. smile

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it's a photo.
            I think it came from "the Passion" movie.

            As for the rest of your requests, well, it kinda proves what I said, you don't understand. (It actually requirers revelation, as opposed to intellect, so it's not for a select few, but ALL.)
            I can accept that, because the Gospel (always was) is FOOLISHNESS to those who are...what does it say again...um perishing!

            But that concept should not be scary, as all atheists will perish. I mean, they will become worm food and fertiliser. big_smile

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It certainly is not scary to me. smile

              I am to become worm food, as humans and other sentient animals do.

              Watch a few animal corpses return to "god" over a few months, you will get a fair idea of the process,

            2. 0
              Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              so do christians - if you get buried in the ground, you get eaten by worms & bacteria. If you get cremated, you get burned to ash.  If you are in the sea, you get eaten by sharks & fish - we all get recycled.

              Surely you don't think you will be exempt?

          2. Druid Dude profile image61
            Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You act like he was a UFO. Because we were a bloody, stupid creation. Did Buddha exist?  School, baby! School. Learn the lessons or repeat the grade. Same message. If you didn't like the son, wait till you find out about Melchesidek. The mystery is convoluted. It is like being in the maze on Crete. There is a maze on Crete. Hmmm. Lotta folks lived back then, and most you have never heard of. Do you doubt their existence, too? How long have you harbored these feelings of hate and fear. It all comes from inside of you.

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              One book. One old book written by men to obtain the goals of men that seeks to prove itself. How ridiculous.

        2. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          this is the kind of emotional appeal that christians use to attract followers - I remember crying watching am easter movie.

          however, this is an example of human sacrifice.  Many religions have been fascinated with animal & human sacrifice - rather creepy really

    4. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah...which proves that your beliefs are completely psychotic!
      Thank GOD your God is false. lol



      Only if your God made ANY sense, and were real...and not the whimsical childish beliefs of deluded believers.

      Oh!  And have a good day. smile

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You will have to live up to your name, and one day and "get it right!"

        I'm having a wonderful day. No amount of ridicule or condescension on yours, or anyone elses part will change that.

        I hope you have one too. With a smile on your face all day! Like this smile

  11. Druid Dude profile image61
    Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago

    Fractal Reality. Something is beyond our space/time. String theory and membrane theory backs this up. Black holes and the possibility of wormholes also tend to back this up. All theoretical. Fractal reality is differrent. Basic repeating patterns. No accidents exist in mathematics. It speaks to perfection. You seem to believe in the perfect accident.

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Benoit Mandelbrot is rolling over in his grave - it is my opinion that the term "fractal" is a bit abused in this usage.  I presume, though, that by "fractal reality" you mean the counter-idea to Hume's supposition that there is the logical possibility for the laws of physics in the future to be totally incongruous to the laws of physics today?  In that case, (and first of all, I am making a huge leap of an assumption in thinking that you are arguing for the existence of the loving God in question, because the point of that post was really quite vague) I fail to see how fractal reality suggests the existence of an entity that would fit the typical description of God.  Of course there is observable consistency in the world as we observe it through time, but I wouldn't take this as the logical hypothesis leading to a conclusion of "something out there." 
      I dunno - man, you really got me off-topic there though!  smile

  12. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    C'mon DJ, you're hanging by a thread.

    Your emotive photo is fantasy from a movie, just like the fantasy which inspired it. smile

    1. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I recon replace the word fantasy, with "based in actual eyewitness accounts" and you will be pretty close.


      PS, that thin thread by which I hang can hold an AWFUL lot of weight. I recon I'm pretty safe. I have no intention of letting go either. big_smile

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        which eye witness accounts?  Apparently none of the gospels were

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I disagree, but even if your understanding were correct, Paul is one.
          Many were mentioned besides.

          But don't stop with the Gospels, or Paul.
          You also have the epistles to contend with too.

          You ought to save these arguments for the Mormons and the Muslims. It fits their history better. big_smile

          1. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Paul had a 'vision' - how many religious people have those?

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No, Paul was an eye witness at the beginning.
              He just was not a believer at the time. His vision was his conversion. Much like the guy in the video I presented. Quite similar, come to think about it. smile

        2. jcnasia profile image61
          jcnasiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Baileybear,
          The gospels are presented as eye-witness accounts.  Are you suggesting otherwise?

          1. 0
            Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            there is plenty written on the topic

            http://www.anatheist.net/articles/chris … l-authors/

            1. jcnasia profile image61
              jcnasiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I read your link.  There's plenty written for the other side as well to support the idea that the gospels were written at much earlier dates.  For example, Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke in his first letter to Timothy (1 Tim. 5:18).

              So what genre of literature would you put the gospels under...
              historical records?
              realistic, narrative fiction?
              something else?

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                from several places I've read, the gospels have been dated decades after these events were supposed to have taken place.   Written by anonymous authors, probably church clergy (most people of that time couldn't read & write). 
                What's realistic fiction?  When it makes reference to a few historical places?  Like harry potter?  In that case, yes.

                http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

                1. jcnasia profile image61
                  jcnasiaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  There's a small problem with the gospels being realistic, narrative fiction.  Prior to them, there are no other examples of this genre of literature, an after them, there are no other examples until hundreds of years later.  Do you think they came up with a new genre of literature?

                  1. mathsciguy profile image59
                    mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm not really sure what anyone could find "realistic" about a guy raising someone from the dead, walking on water, multiplying loaves and fish, and then finally ascending to the sky after returning from the death which he forecast beforehand.

          2. Trish_M profile image87
            Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The gospels were 'gospels' ~ not history.
            Gospels did not have to be 'gospel truth', they had to spread the 'good news' ~ so they had an agenda.

            The Biblical gospels were written after the apparent time of Jesus, and may or may not have been based on eye-witness accounts.

            As such, they may or may not contain truths, so are unreliable as evidence of anything.

      2. Trish_M profile image87
        Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Eye-witness accounts of what, exactly?
        Of Jesus and his works?
        We have none.

        1. lizzieBoo profile image78
          lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          John and Matthew were both eyewitnesses; disciples of Jesus.

          1. mathsciguy profile image59
            mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well, I suppose that anyone who supposedly saw Jesus would technically be eyewitnesses - trouble is, how do we know that an "eyewitness" is not also a fictional character, as Nick Carraway is to the Great Gatsby?

  13. Skytender profile image61
    Skytenderposted 5 years ago

    Read all the way down and my heart is pulled in a couple different directions... First I will state that I am a believer...a child of God, giving the gift of Faith to accept Jesus into my heart and accept transformation.

    To the unbelievers: I love you, thank-you for your comments, though I do not agree with them, I accept you for who you are and can only offer a ear to hear your word.

    As to Love and Hell co-existing... From the bible we know that God is Love... and love defined is the "Union of all things"
    So what is the other side of the coin,... "The separation of one from all Things" also known as pride... We have a choice because he Loves us so much.

    1. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this



      Transformation to what? 



      But do you have rational responses to rebuke our comments?




      Yeah, He loves us so much, He's going to send us straight to hell...simply for not believing in His unbelievable nonsense.  What a God of pure love.

      God LOVES us so much.  Sure:


      Exodus 21:17
      17 Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

      Leviticus 20:13
      13 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death

      Exodus 31:14
      14 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

                     Seems more like your God is pure HATE!

    2. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      transformation is a philosophy copied off the ancient alchemists

  14. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    I do not have to reconcile the two.

    God will punish all those who deserve it with condemnation to hell. Hitler will not be in heaven, niether will Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, or too many other Leftists and their cohorts to name. Along with, I am sure, many who could be called Christians and right wingers.

    No... no problem for me to reconcile the two.

    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      and is it a problem for you to lump decent people in with hitler just because they didn't 'accept Jesus as their personal saviour'?

    2. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Seems very much like that is merely a platitude to keep the flock in line so they don't go entirely bonkers, basically telling them what you want to hear to keep the faith.

      Don't worry folks, your god will take care of the "evil" ones in the afterlife just to make sure you're not upset that they got away with what they did while alive.

      smile

  15. brotheryochanan profile image62
    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago

    Hell, the hebrew word sheol meaning the grave.

    The catholic bishops tweaked the bible to make it match their unscriptural doctrines. Since they kept the bible from the masses - until Luther - they made certain (fear) doctrines to keep the people in the church. After, Luther the bible was now to be available to the masses and the catholic church got right on that and starting to re-write the bible in accordance to what they were already teaching, a tweak here and there, and harmless 'grave' became some underworld demonic place for bad souls to be tormented forever, but this is not what Gods word says.
    Here is how i interpret this:
    There is no hell as a demonic abode for the dead spirits of bad men and there is no torment forever.
    First off, Plato invented the immortal soul. The soul is not immortal, the tree of life gives immortality as stated in:
       Genesis 3:22   And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
       Revelation 22:14   Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 

    The 'second death' referred to in revelations means just that: A second death, the first being of the body and ending their term in this plane, the second death being their ending after being judged unworthy to enter eternal life with God. They will be snuffed out, made to perish, finished, non existent.
    God is not profited by the eternal screamings, forever of people in a place somewhere. There is no reserved space that God uses to store unwanted souls. There is no part of space that God is not in.
    God will snuff out like a candle flame all those unworthy.
       Revelation 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    We might also ask, if revelations is such a book depicted by allegory and metaphors and humanly understandable visions of such a heavenly place, then is the lake of fire, really an actual lake of literal fire?
    Hebrews 12:29   For our God is a consuming fire.

    This is how i marry God and Love. Gods love is all over the bible and most prominent in the cross of Christ. How can a God sacrifice his Son. Love for the many outweighs the love of the one.
    food for thought

    1. mathsciguy profile image59
      mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You seem like a guy who's done a lot of research in his field.  Well-argued, brotheryochanan.

  16. Trish_M profile image87
    Trish_Mposted 5 years ago

    Of course parents hope that their children will love them.
    But they cannot, as you say, make them have those feelings.
    Neither can anyone force themselves to love someone.
    And neither can anyone force themselves to believe something!

    I do not know whether or not God exists ~ or even what God might be.
    Over the years I have thought about this a lot.
    I cannot force myself to believe.
    Many Christians seem to think that this is actually possible, but it is not!
    Could you force yourself to believe in fairies, for example?
    ~ No. That is not how our minds work.

    Think about this example:

    Just imagine that you had a parent, who loved you very much, and wanted you to give your love in return, and, also, to believe in fairies.

    If you did not, or could not, believe in those fairies, then that parent would become vengeful and would force you to endure eternal torture.

    Would that be the behaviour of a caring, loving parent?
    Would that parent deserve to be loved and adored?

    Is it right, to punish someone so drastically, simply because there is not enough evidence of something for people to believe in it?

    There is no point talking about faith ~ one cannot make oneself have faith ~ not in fairies and not in anything else!

    1. tammybarnette profile image60
      tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You do not have to make yourself believe, you have to be open and honest with yourself and pray, He will answer you! HE WILL! In absolute perfect timing you will just know. It takes a very open heart and mind, we are to come to him as a child; children have the most open hearts and minds. Trish, I promise you this from the bottom of my soul, if you seek him you will find him.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have to comment on your answer here. I don't think you read her statement. It is a perfect explanation of the problem many, including myself, have with the christian concept.

        Your religion makes no sense. When you bother to think it through completely.

        1. tammybarnette profile image60
          tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Emily R, I guess there are many things in life that don't make sense but are true and real nonetheless. A bumblebee should not be able to fly, but it can. I have thought my relationship with Christ through completely and it makes perfect sense to me. When I was going through a divorce from my first marriage(in which I had two small children) I was scared, alone, and had no help. Yet my God worked everything out for me. My budget made no sense, the peanuts I made that had to be divided up everywhere did not add up, but worked everytime(a lot like the bible account of the fish and loaves of bread) All I had to do was pray and fear would leave me. I have tons of such personal examples.

          To me I can not for the life of me understand how anyone could believein random particles combusting to make an entire universe and people(so crazy and far fetched to me)Or how anyone could believe we come from monkeys (for goodness sake, I mean that is laughable to me) I am not at all trying to be disrespectful to anyones beliefs, I guess I am just surprised when people tell me my Lord makes no sense but can believe is such random ideals.

          My thoughts here have truly been to enlighten. To help anyone here who would like to know God. It is my duty as a christian person to share my beliefs, my testimony, and try to show people the way to christ so they may be saved. I am not here to judge anyone, that job is that of the father and I do not believe in judgeing people(I stand up for gay rights and I am pro choice) I do not believe it is anyones right to judge or persecute another human being. I have tried to maitain civility with people calling me names(such as delusional) I have tried to pray for everyone in this forum to have an undeniable experience with my lord. God Bless

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So, an insect that has wings makes no sense to fly, yet a guy who came back from the dead makes perfect sense? lol



            It is easy to see you really have no idea what you're talking about, which is why it is laughable. Random particles did not undergo combustion to make our universe nor did we come from monkeys. Obviously, you do not understand those concepts and have embraced fantasy and myth as a result.



            No, it is not your duty to save anyone as that is disrespectful and selfish. You are not enlightening anyone but instead are showing tremendous amount of ignorance of the world around us.



            And, yet you feel it is your duty to judge those who do not share your beliefs and you have to save them.



            If you offer delusion, then it will be called out as such. smile

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              beelz, I am not judging, I am trying to explain but if you do not care for my explanation it is your right. I am not selfish, I can not save anyone, only God can, I can share my stories and some may decide to learn for themselves and go to to Jesus and be saved. I show no such ignorance, actually I find you to be quite ignorant for not being able to undestand what I am plainly saying and instead trying to mix my words to mean something different, reminds me of political sound bytes and Satan the deceiver, so you believe whatever you wish and one day we shall all see who was ignorant smile

              1. tammybarnette profile image60
                tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                By the way beelz, my explanation of the big bang and evolution were intended to show how misinterpretations cause chaos and such it is with God's word. Good grief, some of you are really ignorant to sarcasm, interesting since you drip with it but don't understand when someone is using it against you and your ideals.

                Oh, and look up bumlebees, their body weight, duh!

                1. Beelzedad profile image60
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  They weren't explanations at all, they were typical fabrications of Christians based on their ignorance of the world around them.



                  Oh, and look up "cadaver or corpse" to see that people don't come back from the dead. duh!

                  Bees flying do not violate the laws of physics, coming back from the dead most certainly does. Yet, you embrace the latter.

                  Hilarious. lol

                2. 0
                  Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  bees twirl their wings when they fly, which gives them extra lift.
                  Do you think it 'makes no sense' for a jumbo jet to fly too?

              2. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                There are no gods doing anything here, the actions are entirely of your doing, and you are doing them only to serve yourself in order to gain favor with your imaginary god.



                Sharing your stories is no big deal, but to do so in order to evangelize your religion is another story altogether.



                Yes, I understand you would equate me to satan for not swallowing your irrational beliefs and then threaten me with your version of eternal damnation. You are no different than many such fundamental religionists.

                Btw, isn't it a sin to divorce? smile

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Beelz, I understand your hostility, some people get that way when they are proven wrong, and people do not come back from the dead,duh, Christ did because He was God's son. As far as divorce, I have already admitted to being a sinner, so what was your point? I am trying to spread "religion," I am trying to spread the word. So now, as jesus would do, I shall shake the dust of this town(forum) from my shoes and pray that some will seek him. Enjoy your day smile

                  1. tammybarnette profile image60
                    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I meant NOT trying to spread "religion"

                  2. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol



                    Really? Is that because the bible told you so? Aesop's Fables are full of talking animals, do you believe animals can talk because it's written down in a book?



                    The point is being a hypocrite, telling us how to live our lives while according to your religion, yet you do exactly the opposite.



                    Yes, I know, you are doing so for your own self-gratification while showing no respect for anyone. We are all free to read the bible ourselves, we don't need you to tell us especially when you can't even follow it yourself.



                    LOL! You're comparing yourself to Jesus? lol

                  3. getitrite profile image80
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff324/dktdk51/Smiley%20Icons%201/shocked.png  http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp107/hondalg/animated_question_mark.gif

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            If there is a God, then God bless you too. I'm not saying you haven't found solace in your faith; I'm saying the dogma is insanity. Hell does not line up. You can't claim a loving God,  who hides from everything and anyone, who is willing to condemn billions to either a fiery torment or a dark and lonely separation of him in eternity; simply for taking the world at face value.

            That would be no god worthy of worship.

            1. tammybarnette profile image60
              tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Emily R, God would not choose Hell for any of us, he leaves that choice for us to make. He is not hiding, he is everywhere, in everything.  One of my children(she is 16) has the hardest time taking responsibility for her actions and understanding consequences. She blames everything, including circumstances, for her bad choices. I believe it is truly that simple. We all have the same knowledge before us and the same choices, some people choose to live off the government instead of working, some choose to live under a bridge(I am referring to those who can help themselves of course) Some choose to murder, steal, hate, etc. Life is a series of choices and actions or inaction and each has a consequence. Christianity follows these same basic truths.

              I truly appreciate your discussion, so many here are rude and negative. Thank you for not twisting my words and for truly trying to understand my beliefs although they are not yours smile

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have no desire to twist anyone's words. This should be a discussion forum, not a debate site; but that's an opinion. You know what they say about those. smile

                I agree, we all have choices to make. And we make our own beds. I simply refuse to believe that the god as defined by Christianity is real. There is too much evidence to the contrary. It would be a sad thing, to find out that type of deity was what we were stuck with.

                Out of all the gods ever imagined by men; something that callous and cruel toward the lion's share of humanity would be difficult to accept. There is no love in the Christian philosophy, when you think it through. Hell is not Love. It is hatred for any opposing view.

                I don't want to hate anyone.

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Emile R, I do understand your point of you. I do not believe in persecuting anyone for what they believe. I am an activist of human rights. I believe all have the right to choose. As a christian, however, I just sincerely want for people to know and understand my Lord. All things beautiful and good are of the lord, including humanity. I find the cycle of life to be harsh, the food chain, I can not watch the nat geo programs my husband so adores because of this, I don't like watching battles and death, it hurts my heart. I do not like war, but tis neccessary as well. There are many sad and ugly things in our imperfect world, but these such things are not because of our Father, they are despite him, which is why I love Him so much, He is the only unchangeable, reliable truth. Hell is the opposite of God, and God is love.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, it appears ypu have an audience; so I won't address   all of the issues you've brought up. But, as to the question of the OP, it's simply a sad and horrible philosophy.

                  2. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    We already do understand your god, we are perfectly able to read the bible ourselves. But, after reading it, we are sickened with it's contents of promoting hatred and violence.



                    Nonsense, your holy book despises humanity as it states people are just worthless sinners, evil to the core.



                    Didn't your god create the cycle of life, the food chain?



                    And yet, the bible is full of stories of battles and death, most of which were commanded by your god.



                    Terrible philosophy, did your god teach you that war is necessary?

                  3. mathsciguy profile image59
                    mathsciguyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    "point of you"

                    Do you mean "point of view"?  It's not important to the content of your post, and I honestly don't think less of you for the mistake but - some people will take something like that and turn it against you in an ad hominem attack on your credibility.  So, since I don't wish for anybody to be discredited falsely based on fallacious grounds, I am simply pointing it out for your future information.

              2. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Then, there are no choices to make at all in your religion. You either obey and worship your god or be sent to hell.



                And yet, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that at all because nature shows everything science has found within it, and gods is not of them.



                Of course, your children are being indoctrinated into your religion hence they are shifting the burden of responsibility onto your god, just like all believers do. She is unable to think for herself as a result.



                Your religion causes conflict and wars, it destroys the minds of children and they grow up believing rather than thinking. There isn't anything positive about it all. smile

                1. tammybarnette profile image60
                  tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Beelz, you keep quoting my religion, I don't believe I have shared a religion with you, I am a christian, that is not a religion and bears no doctrine. Science and scientist are of God. My children have been taught to be free thinkers and have chose God to be their savior. My relationship with my Lord has not caused any such war, only apparently, debate. I could list positive things till the cows come home, but why would I waste precious time on doing this for you when you would only continue to be rude and hateful. I am curious, what do you believe if anything?

                  1. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Come now, that is pure baloney and you know it.



                    It doesn't sound like they are thinkers at all, they have simply been indoctrinated into YOUR religion. Their minds have never developed and most likely never will until they break that indoctrination.



                    Hilarious, the bible is full of hateful verses, acts of violence, oppression and murder, things you or I would never do. One can list far more of these negative attributes from the bible than any positive. Yet, you'll embrace it as the most important book in the world.

                    But of course, you'll cherry pick the bible and ignore those.



                    I think and understand, hence no need to believe in invisible super friends. smile

      2. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you're making a promise you can't keep.  I sought God for years and never got a response

  17. aware profile image71
    awareposted 5 years ago

    greek myth ?

  18. aware profile image71
    awareposted 5 years ago

    both heaven and hell reside in the underworld.
    love   makes many do things that  land them in hell.
    if you buy into that stuff .
    ray

  19. tammybarnette profile image60
    tammybarnetteposted 5 years ago

    Emily R, I ran out of room below and just wanted to apologize for assuming, but thanks anyway for trying to explain the concept.

  20. Elizabeth Sellers profile image61
    Elizabeth Sellersposted 5 years ago

    @ Dave Mathews..... UH, OK dude. Chill out a little.  There is no such thing as Hell. That's something that a-holes invented 2,000 years ago just to scare the crap out of people. God will forgive all. Any God who wouldn't.... is no God at all.

  21. KrT08 profile image61
    KrT08posted 5 years ago

    I had always had the belief since childhood hell is self made. Each individual must live with their choices. Hell, in itself is not so much 'torture' as self torture. The guilt, pain and anguish that is felt by the heart who still has the capacity of remorse.
    Though I do not know the entirety of the Bible, I find myself considering the following.
    Does a loving father punish his children for their wrongdoings? Does he expect them to learn from their mistakes. Is hell truly eternal or is there a second chance of redemption. This I don't know, and hopefully never will.
    Empathy, love, forgiveness and remorse are tools of healing. However, I refer back to my bible. Luke 17:3. Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother trespass against the, rebuke him, and if he repent forgive him.
    The bible teaches forgiveness, and removal from those who cause harm. Negativity only fuels their fire.

  22. schoolgirlforreal profile image78
    schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago

    You make a good point, it's a mystery to me, as many things are. I was told ...hmm that God gives a person tons of opportunities to be with him and that final rejection of His love..merits them hell----whatever that hell is........?

  23. SaMcNutt profile image61
    SaMcNuttposted 5 years ago

    Isn't Hell the absence of Love. I wonder, we should really ask those who have gone to hell to verify this claim first. I always understood it as the complete opposite to Love. Love conquers all things. Now the question that needs to be asked is, what is Love?

    1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
      A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Love is not a feeling it is an action. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
      Love is patient, kind, does not envy, or boast, is not proud.
      It is not rude, self-seeking, it is not easily angered and keeps no record of wrong.
      It does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth
      It always protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres.


      Now befoe someone says Love keeps no record of wrongs let me make something clear. Love also must be reciprocating. Matthew 6:15 If you cannot forgive neither will He forgive.

      1. 0
        jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        From when love is conditional, a barter?

        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Love is conditional, as is everything else.

          Does anything at all, that exists on this earth, not exist in an environment that meets certain conditions?                                                                                                                          Some things demand a greater number of conditions being meet that others,                                               Such as a cactus or mushroom, they require very little, and too much of any good thing will kill them.

            Love is kinda like a handshake. It requires acceptance and reciprocation.                                                    It may not need much, but a minimal amount is required for either to exist.
            I don’t think anything exists that hasn’t had its own requirements meet.

          1. 0
            jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            ???
            Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!

          2. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Rubbish Jerami!

            The love I give is not conditional. I don't put conditions on the love I give to my grandchildren.

            I don't give love with the condition that they worship me either.

            "You can be loved if" is not love, and you cannot be loved unless you believe ....... is conditional.

            Very conditional when it is accompanied by threats as in religious tomes.

          3. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What conditions exactly, Jerami? smile

          4. 0
            jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Matter exist, and exist without any condition, it exist even if there is no other matter. It interacts with other matter though.

        2. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
          A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God is not the one who puts a condition on love, we are. By our own standards we put a condition on His love. If I may use another religions phrase it is karma. What you sow so shall you reap. Again it is self-willed, free will.
          When we decide there is someone we do not like, for whatever reason and we choose to talk about that person, shun that person whatever punishment we dole out is putting a barrier between us and our creator because He does love everyone.
          I will repeat it. It is not God that puts a condition on love it is us. This love must extend further than the people we find easy to love, such as our grandchildren, as He does. A brother for adversity, if you will. Love is not conditional in this case BUT it is reciprocating. What you sow so shall you reap.

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            This is what religion sows.

            "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers.  Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin.  There are no survivors to even tell what happened.  I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.'  But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn."  So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations.  For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them.  All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.  "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together.  My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.   (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)


            Religious "love" is not only conditional but the result of psychotic threats.

            1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
              A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Most non-believers ask if there is a  God, why is there so much suffering in the world? This is unconditional love at work. God sends the rain down on the just and the unjust. The scripture you give for an argument is an argument for unconditional love.
              Over and over these people were warned to stop hurting other people. This included killing their children by sacrifice to gods that cannot even speak. You call this action conditional, but if someone were to hurt your innocent family - you would no doubt want justice. Those scripture are for unrepentant evil doers God is showing His unconditional love to by giving them yet another warning. Crime must be paid for. Call it conditional if you want. I would venture you would do the same if your family was the brunt of some evil thing.

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Preacher:

                Hahahahaha...oh my goodness!

                You seem to be a religiously programmed robotic entity that has no ability for rational thought.


                IF you believe that your imaginary "god thing" is OMNISCIENT, "it" knew beforehand, at the time of creation and before, that "its" "beloved" creations would do these horrid things!

                Knowing THAT, beforehand, pls explain why a loving father who is not a perverted psychopath, would create "children" whom he knew were going to "misbehave" and that he'd have to commit murder and mayem later upon their imperfect bodies.

                If this biblical "god thing" was/is OMNIPOTENT & OMNISCIENT, as you claim "it" to be. IF "it" was/is a truly "loving 'god thing," knowing fullwell,before hand, that "it'd" have to destroy what "it" had created, what  "Sane" loving father who is "OMNIPOTENT & OMNISCIENT" would create children he knew he would have to eventually murder?

                There is no doubt in MY mind that you are a programmed follower.
                You are certainly not a "self actuated," learned, thinker.

                My stomach is sore from laughing so hard at the shallowness of your "programmed" remark....but then the definition of "cult" is religion. You seem to be an inspired member.  lol

                Man is easily fooled and easily led!

                Qwark

                1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
                  A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Qwark
                  Apparently you have a short memory. It was you who suggested the robotic civilization, not I. Yes in a created world with free will you are going to have vessels made for destruction and some for honor. God took just as much care in creating those for destruction as He did those for honor. This is what the Bible says.
                  However God gives us a way out of destruction by "purging ourselves" by belief in the name of Jesus and the cleasing of the reading of His Word. Once again He gives us the choice.

                  I truly am enjoying this conversation! Perhaps you will read the Bible and become better at arguing your point.

                  1. qwark profile image60
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Pure, trite, religious tripe Preacher.

                    I never, not once wrote about or suggested a robotic human. Wow!

                    It becomes more evident with every thing you write that you function based 100% on preconceived, biblically programmed info! Doubtlessly, you are a "bot!"

                    I spent 2 1/2 yrs in seminary and was a bible scholar in my early 20's prepping for the pulpit. I finally realized that my curiosity and ability to search and learn exceeded that of my teachers by light yrs! I became a 'pain-in-the-ass" with my questions and not accepting their answers which were based  totally upon "faith."  They asked me to leave. What a relief and what a rewarding experience life has been since then!

                    What you must do is open your mind to "education!"

                    Your bible rests, opened, on the end of your short nose, blocking 'reality" from your peripheral vision.

                    Your "cultish" responses speak volumes to me in ref. to how profoundly your programming has frustrated your ability and desire to study, think without reservation and LEARN!

                    I've been where you are! I have worn the "mocassins" of the fundamentalist.

                    Curiosity, research and study, led me to remove the shackles of religious ignorance and freed me to explore new adventures in an exciting and enlightening world of "reality!"

                    "Knowing" what I know, from actual experience, makes me sad that there still exist those of you who labor under the primitive, frustrating fallacy of there being loving,supernatural, omnipotent, omnsicient, omnipresent supernatural divinities who would give a 1st glance at serendipitous, momentary, valueless, arrogant microbes such as us.

                    You didn't respond to my questions. Why not? I know why. You can't without looking even more foolish.

                    Again I repeat: man is easily fooled and easily led!

                    You seem to be a perfect example of that!

                    whew!   lol

                    Qwark

          2. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks for explaining that, so that us non-believers can understand.

            This just reenforces the fact that all Christians do is lie for their irresponsible God, while blaming His CREATION for His screw-ups!

  24. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    No religious beliefs match up with love.
    Love is not conditional.
    "You can be loved if" ... you believe this, or do that, is not love at all.

    1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image59
      A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Punishment is a corrective measure. Do you not punish to correct behavior? If you love unconditionally then by your words every person in prison should be let out. There should not be any punishment but just a good talking to. Is that it?

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Punish?
        Don't you mean torture, abuse, bully and threaten?

        The psychotic lunatics who wrote the hate filled tomes have reached the end of their capacity to obey their good book to murder and torture people who won't follow their insane god.

        We now understand what psychosis is, and that is the last nail in the coffin for religion.

        There are even kids books such as "I'm OK your OK" which explains transactional analysis these days and the only way one can stay ignorant is to ignore workable truth that can be tested and confirmed.

        I'm not big on punishing others myself, I leave that to others in authority if it involves breaking laws.

  25. 0
    dixie28714posted 5 years ago

    what about free will? Why would God create us perfect on Earth? He choose to make us as we are so we could make our decision.  Life is a test. Make choices and deal with the consiquences.  If God made us perfect to begin with there would been no point of the snake at the garden of Eden, there would be no point of going to heaven or looking forward to it.  God wants to reward the true children of God, not people who are just looking for a "free ride" into Heaven.

    1. qwark profile image60
      qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Dixie, that thinking is so religiously trite that I won't answer it. You won't get a "serious" response from a "serious" thinker in the forum.

      I know that you are serious and that makes me feel embarrassed for you.  sad:

      Qwark

      1. 0
        dixie28714posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        don't feel embarrassed for me, its not my choice how people do or do not take religion serious.  All it takes is someone planting a seed.  Do with it what they will, but every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess,,, I will be prepared, that's what matters most to me.

        1. qwark profile image60
          qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I cant help it Dixie, I'm embarrassed for ya!
          That answer made it worse!
          Qwark

          1. 0
            dixie28714posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            if were not gonna hit the hammer on the head of the nail then what's the point? LOL

            1. qwark profile image60
              qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Dixie:

              That's what's embarrassing! Your aim is terrible! You missed the head of the nail by a mile and a half and you don't seem to be able to improve your aim.

              Of course, not everyone is good with a hammer.

              The majority is as disabled as you.

              I am embarrassed for you all!  smile:

              Qwark

              1. 0
                dixie28714posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                On judgement day when we stand before God ,,, every knee shall bow every tongue shall confess... I will be the one embarassed for you then.  Goes back to choices we make and the consiquiences that goes with them.  I am not arguing anymore, you made your bed and you will lay in it, and thats a sad day.

                1. getitrite profile image80
                  getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yep. Then you and me will go up to heaven, and eat southern fried chicken and drink sweet tea, and forget all about Qwark, who will be in unspeakable misery in everlasting unbearable torment.  I can't wait for that day. 

                  What a wonderful loving God we serve!!!  http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/Shar_dreamer/Scared%20Yet/terrif10.gif

                  1. qwark profile image60
                    qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol lol lol

                    getitrite: ya'd better like yer beer hot 'cause if there is a hell, you and I will be playin' poker and cookin' "smores" on the flames all about us!  muahahahahaha....lol

                    Qwark

                2. qwark profile image60
                  qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Dixie:
                  lol you just made my point eloquently! TY
                  Oh! I'm so embarrassed for ya!
                  Qwark

                3. Beelzedad profile image60
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  So, what you're saying is that you're superior to others and are judging them based on your own standards, which are your beliefs in your god.

                  How nice of you to do exactly what your god does not want you to do. smile

                  1. 0
                    dixie28714posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    not at all, you all choose to believe what you want, go ahead, BUT  Jesus said if we deny him on earth he will deny us in front of his father.. what do you expect?  Some people just do not want to be helped (perfect examples of that here) and you want to bring folks down with ya (how satan works) you made your choice you will recieve punishment for it, UNLESS you change your paths... I tried to lead you all in the right paths... my job is done... hope both of you one day see the  light before it is too late... good luck to you both

  26. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    jomine  ???
    Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!


    ME
    I didn't say that love is turned off like a water spickett if  conditions are not meet.

    I didn't say that the existence of love is conditional

    I  am saying that the condition of your LOVE is affected by those conditions that you face each day.
    Those people that we do love; we love them all differently because they are all different.

      The intensity in which we are allowed to deliver that love is dependant upon how it is received.
     
    How can anyone honestly say that something is unconditional when it can be affected by conditions? 


    jomine  ???
    Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!

    =  -  -- == --


    ME
    I didn't say that love is truned off like a water spickett if  conditions are not meet.

    I didn't say that the existance of love is conditional

    I  am saying that the condition of your LOVE is afected by those conditions that you face each day.
    Those people that we do love; we love them all differently because they are all diferent.

      The intensity in which we are allowed to deliver that love is dependant upon how it is received.
     
    How can anyone honestly say that something is uncontitional when it can be affected by conditions?

  27. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    earnestshub wrote
    Rubbish Jerami!

    The love I give is not conditional. I don't put conditions on the love I give to my grandchildren.
    = -  --  == 

    ME
       But the manner in which you get to deliver that LOVE is very conditional upon the way in which it is received.
      The intensity in which you shower that love is dependant upon conditions.
       = - = - = -


    earnestshub
    I don't give love with the condition that they worship me either.

    "You can be loved if" is not love, and you cannot be loved unless you believe ....... is conditional.

    = - == -- =

       And I do not place any conditions upon love that I want to give either;  Just because I do not put them there does not mean that they do not exist.
      If something can be affected by outside forces or conditions in any way, it is at least some what conditional whether we want it to be or not.

       You are right; "THEY" can not cause me to stop loving them, but they can greatly affect the way in which I am alllowed to express it.

    =  --  ==  --   

    earnestshub
    Very conditional when it is accompanied by threats as in religious tomes.

    =  --  ==

    me

      Conditions exist everywhere.  Those conditions affect their enviroment.   Everything is relative.

    1. getitrite profile image80
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      God is so wise to create such a thing, then allow Himself to be affected by it.

      Good answer!

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I wasn't talking about Gods Love.
        I am talking about that love that Earnest and jomine say that they and I have that is supposed to be unconditional.

          I am just saying that cause and effect exists.
          Whenever there is cause and effect; there are conditions.

          Is it possible to exist without cause and effect?

        1. getitrite profile image80
          getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So what about God's love?  Is it conditional?



          Sorry, I didn't know this was the hubbers hangout.  I thought it was the religion and philosophy forum.



          Understood.

           

          No it isn't possible. Now let's get back to the topic, will ya?  Thanks.

          1. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That was a nice dance move ......




               What do ya call it       "The side step"

            1. getitrite profile image80
              getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'm still waiting on an answer in regards to God's love...or does the tap dancing continue?

              1. Jerami profile image79
                Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I do not presume to know the answer to that question.

                   Any speculation on my part would be just that.

  28. getitrite profile image80
    getitriteposted 5 years ago

    http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q130/cglcivics/skyfalling.jpg

    http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff324/dktdk51/Smiley%20Icons%201/shocked.png

  29. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    I've seen a guy rebuild a motor, then found it still has a problem after all his work. I guess if he is religious he will blame the motor.

    I think I have met a few religious mechanics, the type who throw their spanners around and blame the tools for their own stuff ups.

    If a god thing made mankind, he blew it, not mankind!

  30. Jonathan Janco profile image80
    Jonathan Jancoposted 5 years ago

    God is perfect love and oneness. Whereas, the physical world is made up of all that God is not. Those who cling to their physical entities are in hell because they have not accepted themslves as an integral part of creation.

  31. davidkaluge profile image74
    davidkalugeposted 5 years ago

    We know that there are some Christians that do not believe in hell while they believe in heaven. We also know that some people believe that the soul will keep coming back to earth. There are many things to believe out there so I do not see the reason why people should not respect one another by the simply truth that it is what we perceived as truth that we follow. However, I understand that those that claim to know the truth say that they want to save souls. I have come to wonder if some Christians did include hell into the picture. Then it means that people can live and die and sleep forever with any punishment. If that is the case then what is the need for repentance since no punishment waits you no matter how good or bad you live?  Those that belief in re-carnation claim that we suffer in each live for our past sins or mistakes. So who knows who is right? Is it better to belief that people are not punished because God is love or to tell people that punishment awaits them so that they change? Again what is the path avoid the hell? Christians will claim that Jesus is the only way while others will disagree. Does it mean that people never spoke or reached God before Jesus came?  Does it mean that hell was empty until Jesus came? How will those that lived and died before the coming of Jesus be judged? How can a God people claim never changes then change is ways? This is a matter of what people what you to belief but I personally think that what matters is not who you worship but what you do and how you relate  to others. If it was who we worship then God will be blamed for not making all the tribes on earth to worship him from the beginning because it is said not is impossible for him. Yet the world is the same even after the Jews killed God or his son. which one ? as the Christians claim

  32. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Like I said, I can see how familiar you are with Krauss. lol

 
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