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Is God needed for life begining, as no Chem. base in Universe found?

  1. dutchman1951 profile image60
    dutchman1951posted 5 years ago

    The realization seems to have dawned that 45 years of research into the origins of life has led to a dead end. The same old intractable problems—if not more—still exist, with no resolution in sight. No scientific evidence to support.

    Scientists are now conceding that the most likely atmosphere for primitive earth (CO 2 + N 2 + H2O) will not support spontaneous synthesis of organic molecules.1 Given that the chemistry of Earth’s early atmosphere thwarts rather than supports production of life-essential molecules, researchers have begun to look elsewhere for the right kind of gas (rich in hydrogen and absent in oxygen).

    Some hold out hope that such gas was exhaled from volcanoes, with volcanic lightning as the source of energy to synthesize the essential molecules. However, John Delano of NSCORT-NY and University of Albany (SUNY), reported that “volatiles” (gases) released from volcanoes as ancient as 4 billion years were identical to those exhaled today.2

    Some researchers are looking to interstellar dust in the proto-solar system as the source of life-essential molecules. Their hope is fanned by discovery of some building blocks of molecules in nearby early-stage solar systems.4 However, no nucleotides or sugars have been found. Nor has the problem of left-handed amino acids been solved.

    If this universe is really self supporting, then why is there no chemical basis to make or support life in every solar system across the Galaxy, why only our solar system?

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "If this universe is really self supporting, then why is there no chemical basis to make or support life in every solar system across the Galaxy, why only our solar system?"
      You've checked every solar system in the galaxy, then?

    2. DoubleScorpion profile image85
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I have a thought to this question, Not an answer.

      How do we have different breeds of dogs or cats? Did they always exist in the form that we see today? If so, where did they come from? If not, where did they come from and how did they come to be what we see today?

      Depending on your answer this this view?  Can those same processes be applied to primate family of mammals as well. Humans after all, are of the primate family of animals.

    3. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      dutchman:

      The "god" is "serendipity!"

      Accept the FACT, that we are too "young and dumb" a species to figure it out yet.

      But you are doing what needs to be done to find out: QUESTION!

      There are greater minds than ours, doing the same thing. the difference 'tween us and them is they spend every moment of their lives researching to provide answers.

      As you know, the only way I can define this god thing you mention, is in my imagination.  smile:

      Maybe we'll be fortunate, in our lives, to get a credible answer to your thread question...MAYBE!...But right now? We can only guess and your guess is as good as mine..smile:

      Qwark

    4. deblipp profile image60
      deblippposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You act like 45 years of research is the be-all-end-all. It took mankind thousands of years to come up with cars, digital technology, and quantum physics.

      The DNA double-helix was not identified until 360 years after the invention of the microscope. Imagine that! 360 years!

      But you want to give up after 45.

    5. 60
      artistoneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't question this because I have faith in God. HE is the beginning and the end.

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol lol

  2. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    Hey Dutchman,

    Humans create beginnings of life everyday. lol So are they gods?

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Thats the point, Naturalists say we evolved, but no evidence of correct gases lining up can be found, sooo how did the first Human get here then?

      and no we are no gods, you know that, if we were this world would not be a mess like it is.

      Looking at the Human race after we got here, itis easy to make the asumption you make, but answer where the first man and woman came from..?    :0

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What difference does it actually make on YOUR life?

        Human beings create life from nothing more than emotion. Do you think sperm is just ready to go in our system? Our bodies manufacture it based on specific circumstances. Thus, when the time is right, humans create life through procreation.
        You're showing your inability(or limited mind) to rationalize.

        Every single person in this world has control of themselves. They control their thoughts(to an extent). They control their emotions(to an extent). They control their actions(to an extent).

        The only time that doesn't happen is when it's instinctive/reactionary type movement. But, when humans stop to think and honesty consider options, they have the power of gods, but just don't realize their own potential.
        Does it really factor in your life? We are made up of a combination of things, all which come from our planet. Was there a lightning strike that created life? I would have to say yes, because of the evolution of Earth, in and of, itself. Which, continues to this day to evolve. No assumption.

      2. Trish_M profile image88
        Trish_Mposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Humans evolved. It's not really possible to talk in terms of 'first man and woman'. There were many early humans, who developed from human-like apes, who developed from less-human-like apes, etc, etc.

        As to where life came from. I don't think that anyone knows, for sure ~ but that's ok. We don't know everything yet; we are still learning, experimenting, discovering. smile

    2. OutWest profile image60
      OutWestposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Cagsil
      Humans do not create life at all.  We are a part of the natural process that is already in place.  "Making" a baby and creating life are not the same thing.

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well, trying to create life in any other manner is just stupid of humankind to bother, when more important issues could be addressed with the funding used to do the pathetic attempts. These morons attempting to create life from nothing is wasting what would be useful funds for other things.

        But, I appreciate your input.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          All those attempts do have a purpose.
          To PROVE that no intelligence is needed to crete life.
          Therein lies the final proof that God is not needed to "start" life from non-life.
          Don't you want "proof" that God is not necessary?
          You recon it will shut us up, then?

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't need or require "proof", because I already have an understanding that a "god" isn't necessary. But, thank you anyways.

            It's the believers who need the "proof".

            Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god to be understood.
            Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god to be lived.

            Therefore, no god required/necessary. smile

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you for your opinion! big_smile

        2. OutWest profile image60
          OutWestposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Scientists are not able to create genuine life or they would have by now and maybe cure all the diseases of mankind.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            IF they stopped screwing around and wasting funding as they are, then cures could have probably been found by now. But, then again, I have an eerie feeling in the pit of my stomach that a cure for Cancer and AIDS has already been truly found, but is being kept from the general public.

            The human species is already reproducing at a rate that over-population is becoming a problem without the cures. Not to mention, the amount resources already being consumed are growing too fast and out pacing many other things, and if we(humankind) are not careful, a severely huge reduction in population is going to happen, just from starvation(people dying because no food available).

  3. dutchman1951 profile image60
    dutchman1951posted 5 years ago

    It absolutely does factor, we know because we already exhist sperum is human formed and made, but....who Cag? answer the question, not fight the question.

    Think if it could be solved we could stop this religious madness, Natural occurance or...a God of some kind?

    think, no right way exclusive, no my way is the only way. Just Truth. It would affect all of us, and hopefully for the better.

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      and I could accept the Lightening Strike, and or that Volcano theory, but they do not support the Esental Sugars necessary?  Carbon possibly, but not the complex sugars?  so again, how..?

      I know, broken record!

    2. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Evolution is what brought about the human species. Not who.

      A who doesn't factor. The Universe itself is. It takes trillions, upon trillions of years for the Universe to reach it's final end, which then will collapse on it's self and start all over again.
      The religious madness isn't based on answering that question and if it was, then it would already be over with. It's chosen ignorance on behalf of those who fail to understand their own life. They "NEED" a god, because they have no faith in humankind to find the answers. Why not? Because of too much distortion and misinformation.
      People recognize truth everyday of the week, but refuse to admit it. And you think that's going to change if a question is answered? Nope. The power hungry, wealthy and controllers won't let it happen.

      1. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I agree, I really do, it has taken me time to loose the indoctrination, but the more I study Anthro, (Bio. emphasis), and Arch. I am finiding it not so clear cut as you describe

  4. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    I do not understand all the resistance to something that Quantum Random Theory dictates has to exist, God.

    If everything that is possible or probable, or impossible or improbable, WILL be at one time or another, then God would be.

    And it wouldn't matter at what point He would be, because once He is, He can move throughout time and minipulate things as he wants them. After all He is omnipotent and omniscient, so time travel would be possible for Him.

    So Science itself dictates God exists and I do not see why all you science types do not grasp that.

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am discussing it, NOT denying it, I was asking Cag is it possible?

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't name you specifically, did I. I was talking to those who do not grasp it and are science types. If you grasp it, your not included. Don't be so touchy Dutch.

        1. dutchman1951 profile image60
          dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          don't mean to be touchy TM, just proposing another look at all of this.

      2. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Anything is possible, up to the point is becomes improbable. Once it's improbable, then it's impossible. wink

        1. TMMason profile image73
          TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wrong Cags.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, it's not. Regardless what you say. lol

    2. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Because there isn't a NEED for it to exist. What do you not grasp about that?

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Quantum random theory does not state, only if there is a need does it come into creation.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Of course, it's not meant to reason. Duh!

    3. Jeff Berndt profile image91
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Not every scientist declares the non-existence of god. In fact, most scientists do believe in one god or another. They just understand that such belief is not scientific. They further understand that faith and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and the science vs faith debate is a false dichotomy.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly, Jeff.

        Science is not in the bussines to prove or dis-prove God. that is the intent of the Evolutionary Biologists, and their, or many of their, twistings of science.

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          "Science is not in the bussines to prove or dis-prove God."
          Correct.

          " that is the intent of the Evolutionary Biologists, and their, or many of their, twistings of science."
          Crazy talk.

  5. dutchman1951 profile image60
    dutchman1951posted 5 years ago

    To me though if there was a God?  he or she! would exhist outsside of the creation, as That God woould be to vast to be inside its own creation, so time, etc... would not apply to that God.

    Like a painter the creates a canvas. He is to vast to be inside the Canvas, he would be its creator.

    1. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Nothing exists outside of reality. There may be different realities, due to different dimensions, but to actually understanding one's own life, it is irrelevant.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Reality is perception, and perception is relative, Cags.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wrong again. Reality isn't and has NOTHING to do with perception.

          Reality exists FREE of thoughts, desires, will or wishes.

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What we percieve as reality, does not exist at the quantum level, untill we realize it to be so... so your argument is with Quantum Physic, Cags, not me. Reality is perception...and perception is relative to our place in this creation. It is a simple concept.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, my argument is with you, not Quantum Physics. It's YOU who is telling me that reality is something it is not.
              Untrue. Things are relative yes. Things are perceived, yes. But, what is perceived is specific situations and/or circumstances.

              Any human thought plays NO FACTOR in reality. Nothing changes reality until something is created and/or discovered. Then reality changes, because that is actually the primary purpose of knowledge and where it comes from...exploration of reality.

      2. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ?????   you lost me, why would you not wish to understand your origin?

        I guess I am curious as to that, and I will say yes, you have a point in that it is not necessary to know,if you are content with that, but many are not also.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What part are you not understanding? What makes you think I don't understand MY origin? I was created by two humans who procreated. That's MY origin.
          I know, because of many reasons.

          And, as I have said, at least 100 times now- all questions have answers. However, not all questions need be answered. And, sometimes, the answer to a question is that it doesn't indeed need be answered, IS the answer to the question.

          1. dutchman1951 profile image60
            dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            if you are content to say thats the fact end of it, thats ok. It is an answer, yes.


            I wish thought to search for the beginings, what really happened. Just want to know. In truth may never find that. I understand you know your beginings, as do I, we both know our parents and Grandparents and family tree.

            I am not saying you do not understanfd. You do.  I am jsut asking is a God possible by lack of Bio-Chem proof that essental chem. to support life in the "real" universe. 

            How can it be on earth only then?  It is not random occurance. Human conception is the norm. The lack of ability to do that is the exception, so why just on earth? 
            It implies some type of miricle fact occurance, and we both knoe thats not reality, right?   So, again, How?

            I know, who cares, we are here......lol  smile

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              In the "real" Universe, everything exists to make life. We are living proof of that. Bacteria is living proof of that. Viruses are living proof of that.
              No one is saying only on Earth. We've barely explored the Universe, so that continues to remain unknown.
              Who says humans only exist on Earth? I know of no one making that claim. wink
              No miracle. Humans are nothing special, just another life form.

      3. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        different realities, in different dimenshions?   if so then God is possible then..?   hmmm     smile

        1. TMMason profile image73
          TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes.

        2. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No. It's not possible in this reality, so why would it be possible in another? It makes no sense.

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What makes you sure God is impossibe in this reality. That is an exagerrated hyperbolc answer, which you cannot support with any evidence what so-ever. You do not know if there is a God... you can not believe or you can believe. But you do not know. So your the one not making sense.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What is God? Define it? Then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just passing along distortion and misinformation.
              And, you cannot prove otherwise. So what's your point exactly?
              I have no belief of one, because there isn't a need for one. And every religious nutcase continues to tell me that God doesn't exist in our reality, because he lives in spirit realm. Well, if it resides in a spirit realm, then it certainly doesn't reside in reality. What part do you not understand?
              Not making sense? You're a joke.

    2. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I can not get my edit to work to correct my typing!!!!!!   sorry

  6. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago

    We live in a relatively isolated part of our galaxy.  More than likely, life arrived on earth on a comet or asteroid.  Comets once swarmed like fireflies in the night sky during earths early beginnings. 

    We may not find the beginnings of life in our neighborhood, but this doesn't mean some god or another had anything to do with it.

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      science proves that the real unverse, as we know it can not sustain life Randy, it does not have or produce the Complex sugars and carbon's needed, by natural occurance. So by your statement, who created the Aliens then? 

      I can accept an Alien race bringing life to earth, but how did they get here in this Universe?

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Where did you learn the real universe could not sustain life?  No one has even been outside of our solar system, much less our galaxy!  No aliens needed, Dutchman.  Perhaps alien bacteria or cells frozen into the ice, which many comets consist of, may have delivered life from far away.

        Much of the water our planet possesses came from comets which impacted earth by the millions, if not more numerous than that.  Life could have easily started from any one of the impacts.

        Where did life originally begin?  Probably not here, but who knows?

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The Gospel according to Randy Godwin.

          Nice theory, but in the same basket as all the others, including the Biblical account.
          All opinions have the same value here, remember that. No-ones is any better than all the others. big_smile

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I disagree, Aka!  I often see opinions more worthy of being heard than others.  Not yours of course, but there are those who have shown they are worth the time hearing what they have to say.

            Too bad you value no one person's opinion more than another.  I think I may see the problem you have with understanding reality.


            roll lol

            1. aka-dj profile image79
              aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am not stuck just with this reality.
              I have certainly read many others opinions, and value them as you value mine.
              Not because they don't agree with mine, just that they all are either dead ends, or so open ended, they will never close.

              I see you are still a snake worshipper. hmm

              1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Just mine!  smile

          2. dutchman1951 profile image60
            dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            aka!   Randy has an opinion to be considers, He is welcome in this thread

            JUST as you are, keep it civil please

        2. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why do you say probably not here? Who said Life came on meteors? As far as the human species is concerned, our life form originated here. It would only be speculation to say that we didn't begin here. Just a thought. tongue smile

          1. Randy Godwin profile image93
            Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm talking about one celled creatures, Cags.  Life began as tiny creatures I believe, but I have no proof of that of course! smile

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              But nothing suggest one-celled creatures didn't come from Earth, so why speculate that they came from somewhere else? wink

              1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Why not? Why limit life to earth when it is a relatively new planet compared to multitudes in our galaxy alone.  Why do you think it had to happen here?  smile

                1. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Because there isn't anything suggest otherwise. wink

                  I am not doubting there is other life form exactly like human or even identical to humans elsewhere, but as of right now, there isn't anything to support the speculation. It's only probable.

                  If you're interested- This Universe wouldn't be different than any other Universe in existence, except for the time in which it has existed. So, it's not too far out of the way to think that the human species isn't actually the only, one-of-a-kind, as it appears.

                  If this Universe has the human species in it, then through evolution, other Universes would also. wink

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure there is!  Why, when you speak of cycles of the universe, is it farfetched to think life may have survived through some or all of the cycles in the form of ice or inside rocks themselves?

                    Unless you have some means of proving this couldn't happen, then there is something to suggest life may have been started here by a comet or asteroid impact into the sea.  smile

  7. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    Dutchman,

    If a god doesn't reside inside this reality and we know there is nothing outside of reality, but know that different realities and other dimensions(these will exist inside of other realities) exist, then no god would reside in neither or them.

    A god would exist outside of reality, but we know there isn't anything outside reality. So, no god exists.

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That depends on how you see reality, Cags. Read some Quantum theory and then talk... reality is perception and reality as we know it does not exist on the quantum level untill we dictate what that reality is. I know that is a lil deep... but you can do it. I have fath in you.

      I would advise Dutch to go and look into Quantum Physics before you make a decision based on anyones opinions. I think you may be surprised with what you find there.

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Untrue.
        No need. I can see through the distortion with needing to complicate my life with technical jargon.
        Actually, you continue to repeat yourself, which means you're full of it.
        And, I'll say okay, if that's what he wants. But, the beginning has already been explained and I have done it here, when I said what the Universe itself will do.

        1. TMMason profile image73
          TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Technical jargon? Quantum Physics is a real and valid science. And your reply shows just how much you do not know Cags.

          And yes I know you think all this came from nothing. lol

          And if the thought that someone might research something and find out for themselves threatens you so much... then I think we all see what your about.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And, your reply shows that you're just blowing smoke and distortion, like a good little thesis.
            Only an idiot would think that we came from nothing considering what our bodies are made up. Your logic defeats you, to insinuate that I said we came from nothing. Please do try to read more carefully, would you?

            We came from Earth, our bodies are made up of things that either came from the Universe and/or from Earth. That is NOT nothing. Duh!

            1. TMMason profile image73
              TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What are you talking about Cags. You know damn well I am talking about what you think of the origin of the universe you so vehemently proclaim to love or know. You believe all this came from nothing... and that would include us by extension. So stop acting like you do not understand.

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You making the claim that we came from NOTHING is just distortion and misinformation, suited for the god concept.

                The truth of the matter is we came from a combination of things, which were provided by the universe and Earth. What part are you missing?

                As I have already stated, the Universe itself, will collapse and begin again. It's a never ending cycle. Nothing had to put it into play. It takes trillions of years, upon trillions of years for the Universe to do so. Or are you missing that part too?

                1. TMMason profile image73
                  TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  And where did the universe come from cags? And as I said, by extension us and everything else? And yes I am aware of the big bounce theory, So don't sit here playing lil games. You know as well as I do what is being said.

    2. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That God could exhist in a reality we do not know of?   we see our canvas, our part in the painting, but.......not the painter???????

      if you build aomething with your hands and complete it. It exhists outside of you, right?  Or do you exhist inside of it?  Do not think so..?

      1. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        at work, will be back, have a server down, sorry....rats!

      2. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then you alter reality. Isn't that the power of a god?
        Yes, the item you create would exist in both, outside of you and inside of you(from imagination).
        You reside in it, only because you originally created it. wink
        If you put your heart into making/creating a gift for someone, did you not put something into it?

        1. dutchman1951 profile image60
          dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          you physicaly do not reside in it, your thoughts do, right?

          so you can not fit physically in the canvas. is what I meant

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I guess that depends. Your fingerprints are on it, if you physically touched it.
            True, you cannot physically fit into a canvas, that's just foolish to think of. But, your creativity is inside everything you do.

            1. dutchman1951 profile image60
              dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              thats what I meant exactly, if that is reality, than either God exhists in a different reality or....not at all and thus  we evolve naturally. And is that other reality Christian Invented?  To me both are un-founded, the Chemistry Link and that other reality. Like Earnest said if that os so then, who made God?

              but acording to some of the new finding, we can not prove the chemistry is there?  to me...why?

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                As I already said....no one claims a god exists in our reality or any other reality. You can ask anyone and they will tell you that the god they believe in is a spirit, existing in another realm outside of reality. But, we know there is nothing outside of our reality. Which only shows you that those who believe in a god, do not know what they are actually saying. It's in their mind and they have deluded themselves.

      3. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Would you say that we who build computers are outside of our creation?

        Or are we, or a part of us, also an inherant and integral part of that creation?

  8. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    The total history of the Universe is contained in the Grand Cycle, which consists of (1) The Googol-Year Explosion Half-Cycle, Long Wave(with gravity-wave dissipation with proton decay with quark and electron annihilation) (2) The Googol-Year Implosion Half-Cycle, Long Wave and (3)The Googolth-of-a-second Full-Cycle, Short Wave(black hole/white hole)

    (a googol equals 10 followed by 100 zeroes)

    Is that good enough for you? Or are you going to ask "WHO" or "WHAT" started it? When it started itself.

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You should really stop cutting and pasting Cags.

      And no it isn't good enough.

      Regardless of how you think it came into being... it did come into beng. And where did the matter come from to begin with cags. Also... there are serious problems with the theories of cosmology, big bang or bounce. One of the biggest being the cool down rate for energy into matter and matter into mass. There has not been enough time with the standard 15 billion years. So how?

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, I didn't cut and paste that, but you would like to believe I did. I was typing that in, because it comes from my research on answering questions about Life. Something apparently you refuse to understand.
        I didn't think it would, because YOU NEED to believe in a god.
        Yes, the Universe came into being, through the Grand Cycle.
        Are you missing something or is a comprehension problem? The Universe itself is the matter that creates the Grand Cycle. Duh!
        I'm sure you'll certainly try to point them out.
        Again, as I said before. I haven't gotten into the technical jargon, yet you come at me with it anyways. roll

        1. TMMason profile image73
          TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So you understand science, but not the technical jargon used in its texts.
          Wow.

          Also, stating that it came from itself sounds nice, but doesn't prove a thing.

          And I have no need to believe in God, and did not for a long time.

          I chose to believe in God. I am not wedded to my views to the point where I cannot realize and correct my mistakes. Unlike so many here... including you.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't understand all the technical stuff without having to go back and re-read my research on the topic. However, considering my research has over 3000 pages to it, and to dig out specifics just for you....isn't the simplest thing in the world to do.
            Of course not. But, you're also not taking into account other factors within the Universe itself, like Black/White holes, which you apparently missed in my description of the Grand Cycle.
            If you formed the belief, then you did so out of a need of some sort, because living life and understanding it on an individual level, doesn't require it.
            I am an open-minded individual up to the point when distortion and misinformation comes into play. wink

            1. TMMason profile image73
              TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah right ,Cags. And I have a bridge in Brookly you could get real cheap.

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Coming from you, I don't doubt you would sell something that didn't exist to begin with, to someone else. wink

                1. TMMason profile image73
                  TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  There is a bridge in Brooklyn, cags. lol It is called "the Brookly Bridge". lol

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge

                  1. Cagsil profile image60
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Correct, there is a bridge, but what is non-existent is YOUR right to sell it. lol

            2. TMMason profile image73
              TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Ex Nihilo Nihil

              1. earnestshub profile image86
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Who made god again? smile

                1. TMMason profile image73
                  TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  As I explained earlier in another thread, or this one. He could on of the results of Quantum Random Theory, Earnest. And once here, He is.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Or he may be just a figment of your imagination.  Wow! You lost 4 profile points in a matter of hours.   Perhaps it was something you said!  lol

                2. dutchman1951 profile image60
                  dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  finaly, thank you Earnest.

                  thats where I was heading here.

                  Randy, latest raido telescope findings are showing space gases do not carry the complex sugars, the spectromitry is showing they are not present, so for a bit here, it has created some Physicists and Astronomers to question.

                  1. TMMason profile image73
                    TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Again your arguements are not with me, but with quantum random theory and the Quantum Physicists. Take it up with them.

                  2. earnestshub profile image86
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Fortunately we are now making scientific breakthroughs almost daily due in part to the massive decrease in processing time because of the new super computers crunching the numbers. smile
                    We will know much more soon using the information coming out of particle accelerators world wide. smile

  9. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 5 years ago

    I remember reading about scientists in California discovering that the high impact velocity of meteors can add complexity to any chemicals (like those found in nebulae) riding on those meteors. Just because scientists have not yet found a method does not mean that nature did not have a way. After all, with several hundred million years to work at it, nature had great opportunity to find such a way. Heck, scientists have only been at it for a few decades. Geez! Give them a chance, will ya!

    On the other hand, if God created the universe, then He would be the party responsible for all natural phenomena, including the chemicals used in the formation of life.

    I don't understand why this is on the "Astrology" thread. "Astrology" is not the same as "Astronomy." Just because we're talking about God and the universe doesn't make astrology the logical place for this discussion. Oh, well.

    The Bible says that God destroyed all life on Earth save some old drunkard named Noah, his family and a boat load of animals. What a tarnished figure Noah was. But could there be more to the story than the jokers pretend to know? What value does "fright" have in the big scheme of things, Randy and Cagsil? You've got it all figured out, so you're not going to dig deeper.

    I'm afraid I don't have it all figured out, yet. I'm still looking. I've only found a few clues in Genesis which match up with science, but there might be others yet to be discovered. Jokers will never find them. A timeline in Genesis compatible with those in science, an explanation for the seemingly outrageous longevity of the early patriarchs, the Kabbalah's "Tree of Life" neatly embedded in two chapters of Genesis, and the formula for the mechanics of creation right up front.

    I've seen a few miracles, and repeated them experimentally with instantaneous results. Things like that don't happen unless there is something superior to the laws of physical reality. I've been outside of this physical body and seen with crystal clarity without physical eyes. Something like this is not possible unless we (most of us, all of us?) are inherently non-physical, spiritual sources of creation (the "image" of God thing). This doesn't prove the big guy ("God") exists, but it comes pretty close.

    Jokers won't understand the symbology of the Bible. That's okay. It's not for them. But the reason for "fright," "pain," "suffering," "babies dying," and everything else of this mortal existence has everything to do with the immortal true selves, within, awakening. The bodies don't matter squat. You got it? These Homo sapiens shells are only a means to an end. God isn't interested in these meat bodies. He's after his children -- the spiritual flesh of his flesh, only he ain't got no flesh. Chemicals of bodies exist in the continuity of space-time. Spirit exists superior to and outside of space-time. I've gotten a taste of it. These "spiritual children" are in a state of catatonia, dreaming their dreams through the physical wakefulness of these Homo sapiens vessels. But with jokers, it's like trying to describe color to a blind person.

    Oh, well...

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      From one joker to another-I didn't notice this was on the astrology channel.  lol

      I'm also sorry I do not have your powers of recreating miracles nor the ability to travel outside of my body, even with blurry vision.  You must really be an awesome individual in your mind.  I do not envy you at all.  I do not wish to be bestowed such gifts from whoever it is. 

      And who is joking?  Much of my dialog is serious if you can understand my point of view.  But yes, I had rather make people laugh than instill them with gloom and doom.  Sorry!  smile

    2. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Fright, in the big scheme of things is to prevent chaos, which was perceived as an outcome, if humankind wasn't made to answer to a higher authority.
      Understanding one's individual life is what matters. YOU are the one who apparently needs to dig deeper.

    3. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      thanks Lonestar, now we are heading towards the science of this, not the abstract of realities etc... although valid, I was looking for scientific here more. I got side tracked, with some valid arguments presented.

  10. mrpopo profile image88
    mrpopoposted 5 years ago

    Amino acids spontaneously formed from inorganic components based on early Earth's conditions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_experiment

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The Miller/Urey experiment is known to have been a joke. Urey himself came out and said they had it wrong. Also what they created was not life... 

      http://evolutionoftruth.com/evo/evogene.htm

      And then there is the fact that a bunch of scientists sitting around a lab designing an experiment to create life, is by definition, "intelligent design".

      haha ah you guys are a laugh.

      1. mrpopo profile image88
        mrpopoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, are you claiming that the experiment is a "joke" or that they didn't create proponents of life?

        If the former, how exactly is it a joke? What did Urey say they had "wrong"? How do you get an experiment wrong? And where exactly is the evidence for that claim?

        If the latter, well that's not what they claimed they did, is it? They managed to induce the formation of amino acids. Coupled with the information that phospholipid bilayers (the stuff cell membranes are made of) can form naturally, you can infer that cells are potentially able to form under the right conditions.

        While the experiment may have been designed, the conditions for the experiment were based upon early Earth's conditions. Unless you're claiming that those conditions were designed by God (seems kind of pointless for an all-powerful being), then no, this is in no way comparable to "intelligent design".

        Your link points out that it's not life and that there are other complexities to life, but that's not the point. Amino acids are basic components that, combined with other elements, can create life. I don't think you can claim that simple parts cannot combine to form complex instruments (as your site implies), so I'm assuming your claim is that complexity cannot come naturally.

        But that's simply not true. This article talks about a natural forming sphere of molybdenum and oxygen in water: http://www.scienceforpeople.com/Essays/complexity.htm

        Other common phenomenon, like volcanoes, mountains, sand dunes etc. all naturally demonstrate complexity from simple components.

    2. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      excelent morpr, am reading. good work

  11. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    Correcting your misunderstandings and lack of knowledge is not baiting, cags.

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, your corrections do have the aroma of dead fish and chum about them!  lol

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Spoken like a truely sore looser. You all learn what your speaking of and I wouldn't have to correct you so much. Untill then I will continue to revise your misunderstandings, and and expound upon all subjects so that you may learn the true facts. See how simple that is to understand Randy.

        And cags should have google bridges in Brooklyn before he made such a blatently incorrect remark. That too is a simple concept to grasp.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, you continue to dismiss the FACT that I said you had a non-existent right to sell the bridge you claimed you would sell me. Go crawl back in your hole. Like I said before, all you do is blow smoke, which is equal to distortion and misinformation.

        2. Randy Godwin profile image93
          Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What do I have to be sore about, TM?  And if you truly believe you have accomplished anything at all by the old trite "I gotta bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you" farce, then there is no need for me to wonder at your confusion.

          Can you point out any thing at all which you think would cause us to respect your opinions?  So far, there is absolutely no reason to think you know anything about anything.  Perhaps I am missing something I cannot find on your profile or your failed attempts at writing on this site.

          In fact, why are you here at all?  Explaining your motives for posting here would go a long way towards my understanding why you even go to the trouble of making your opinions known.  Is this asking too much of you?  You are obviously not here to write, so what is your goal?

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I have not claimed to accomplish anything. You jumped in to defend your buddy cags, and he mis-spoke and thinks he can deny saying what he said. You jumped into this and you had no reason to other than to argue with me... so what is it you think you have accomplished?

            I am here because I feel like being here... too bad if you do not like it. And I do not have to explain myself to you or anyone else. And you ncan continue the personal attacks... it simply shows your true self.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hey TMMason, I know you love to put things the way you want to suit your own needs, but you assumed the wrong thing, as I have tried to explain.

              You claimed to want to sell me a bridge. wink

              I said you want to sell something that was non-existent. You assumed I was talking about the "bridge", which was your first mistake.

              Before you can actually sell the bridge, you MUST first have the "rights"(which is the something I was referencing), to do so.

              Something in my statement was talking about the "RIGHTS TO SELL" the bridge. That is what is non-existent. Man, you need to get a life.

              1. TMMason profile image73
                TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I assumed nothing. I read you reply. It is that simpole Cags. Too bad and have a good day. I am done with your game. lollllll

                1. TMMason profile image73
                  TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You did not say... you dont have a right to sell that bridge... see the difference. Get real and man up to your mistakes. It would so much simpler in the end, and you wouldn't look like a fool in the process.

                2. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You're the only making a game out of it. The level of ignorance displayed, goes to show that you have no understanding of things you claim to know about. You ASSUMED I was talking about the bridge. That was YOUR first mistake. DUH!

                  Again, like I said, you've been off topic for a while now and did so on purpose. So your actions display your true self. Too bad you have no understanding of that either. Again, like I said, you need to get a life.

                  1. TMMason profile image73
                    TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Your words are right there for you and everyone else to read. You own em.  Too bad... so sad. Duh

            2. Randy Godwin profile image93
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What did Cags misspeak about?  I suppose I missed something in his post.  So you are afraid to state your purpose for posting here?  Or do you even know why you are doing so? 

              It really doesn't matter to me, of course!  If you wish to appear as you do then continue doing so.  I just don't want you to get the impression anyone cares what you think.

              Personal attacks?  What a laugh!  lol  You are afraid to allow us to know you as a person.  In order for there to be a personal attack there must be a person to insult. 

              Let's see what we know about you.  Your avatar is of a former paranoid commie chaser-I don't really what message you are trying to convey with this, or if there is one.

              Your hubs are merely rants which I doubt get many reads or comments.

              Your inability to raise your profile score to even equate with many foreign writers here tells me much about your intelligence and ability.

              You appear frightened to reveal anything at all about yourself on the forums or in your profile.  And yes, your profile score does mean something on this site.

              Sometimes it is almost embarrassing to me because I often have a 100 profile score beneath my avatar.  Sometimes it prevents me from posting to someone with a much lower score because I'm afraid it will appear as condescension.  It also makes me feel as if I am somehow tricking the system into giving me 100's.

              So you see, I also wonder about why your score stinks so bad.  Another reason to suspect your reasons for being here.


              But I have a suggestion for you.  Why not start a thread just for your type of HP members.  You guys can remain as anonymous to each other as possible and think you are actually giving the opinion of a real person. 

              Or do you dislike conversing with others like yourself?  smile  Just try talking to those who provide no more personal info about themselves than you do in your profile, hubs or forum posts and see how much you value their views.  I dare you!

              1. TMMason profile image73
                TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hahahaha............ oh your too funny.

                Senator Joseph McCarthy was correct in all his assertions. And that is now proved through the facts of history and the Senate records. So give it up Liberal. hahahahaha......... we are living what my avatar warned of.

                And I am glad all your lil liberal Socialist democrat friends like your hubs so much. Oh, you the man... hahahahahaha.......

                And it is none of your bussiness why I am here.

                but of course, I am here simply to espouse my point of view.

                End of story.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No surprise, TM.  I didn't think you wanted to converse with those of your own ilk.  No one does.  That's why you are here in the first place, isn't it.  You feel safe and secure hiding in your anonymity while espousing your "point of view" as you called it.  lol

                  I doubt seriously you are even a man at all.  Probably a teenage male who enjoys pretending they are someone who others look up to.  Teen Male?  TM?  Is there a connection there?  lol


                  But seriously TM, would you value a non-persons opinion the same as one you knew something about?

                  And by the way, None of my hubs concern politics at all.  My "liberal Socialists Democrat friends" do not read my hubs as far as I know.  It would especially be a hardship for them to visit one of my hubs almost 50,000 times.

                  But do continue to comfort yourself with the thought someone actually cares about your point of view.  I suppose that's all you've got left.

                  Now, this is the real end of the story!  Is that a zit?  smile

                  1. TMMason profile image73
                    TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I know you are so great and all who dis-agree with are nothing. Get a life.

    2. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      roll

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "Cags... Coming from you, I don't doubt you would sell something that didn't exist to begin with, to someone else"

        Read your statement cags... it is a simple thing to understand. You just cannot admit you mis-spoke. It would be that simpe, cags... -oh sorry i mis-spoke-... but no, just insist you didn't say what you did say. And that is the problem I have with it. you all seem to think you can deny your own words and everyone will just say... oh okay. Well i won't you mis-spoke and I called you on it.

        Get over it.

      2. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        do not frown Cag, your points "are" being made and understood, keep going if you feel free to. It's valid thought

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you dutchman. Much appreciated. I just don't like distortion and misinformation being passed along from those who continue to do it. smile

          1. dutchman1951 profile image60
            dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I see that, and I do not think you are cut and paste. I presented this question for a scientific thought and discussion, and it is great.

            keep on, all points are very interesting for everyone, and so very much appreciaterd also. all of you guys are great.  smile   thanks to all, keep going please.

            please, no insults, keep it fact based please.

  12. Druid Dude profile image59
    Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago

    One word...actually, two...Black Holes. That is how something can exist outside of our time/space. Scientists can't even tell us what the peanut butter (Dark Matter) is on this PBJ sandwich of a universe. After they tell you what they "Know" a good scientist will tell you that it is "all theoretical" of course. So, Cag...have you changed your mind about love? If it is spiritual, and it exists in this universe, what you just said makes no sense whatsoever. IS LOVE SPIRITUAL, OR NOT???

    1. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Flaw in your wording. Black holes themselves do not exist outside of time/space. They actually exist within reality, because they exist within the Universe.
      Actually, black holes exist as a part of the Universe and to explain them, doesn't actually need to be done. What we do know about them is that they exist and when the Universe collapses, it will collapse within the black hole. At which, it will then become a white hole and BOOM, the Universe will begin the Grand Cycle over again.
      Of course, they will say that. They are not allowed to call them facts anymore, thanks to the thesis of the world, who must keep the god concept alive.
      Love is a human emotion, based on the implied connection of the individual. Nothing actually spiritual about it.

    2. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Druid, are you suggesting Black holes as openings to the relm of God.?

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I hope not. lol

        1. dutchman1951 profile image60
          dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          me to

  13. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    There are a few sure things about science.

    1- You can be damn sure that every day science has something wrong. It is the nature of the game.

    2- what science does NOT know, is infinitely more than what it DOES know.

    3- science now knows that what we think we know to be true, is not. ie; the newtonian Laws of physics, supposedly inviolable, are violated on the Quantum level. They simply fall apart. So what else that is truth, will be shown not be truth at all. Who knows.

    So in whole science is yet very young and doesn't really know all they think they do. But it is learning and that can only be a good thing. Unless we get caught in our arrogance of, "we know". Then we have serious problems.

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      We knew that Newton's laws were flawed before we ever reached the moon. But we still used Newton's laws to reach the moon. Why? Because even though they're not perfect, they work, and they work the same way every time.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Untill you reach the Quantum level. then they do not work at all. You know that jeff. So why argue it?

        1. OutWest profile image60
          OutWestposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree TMM.
          Science knows very little about some of the toughest questions.  But it's funny how so many put alot of faith in it.

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Alot of science requires as much faith as religion itself, Outwest. They hate to admit it though. Theories such as String thry, M-Thery, the big bang or the Big bonce, along with human Evolution. And never mind some of the more complex theiories now arising from Quantum theory. Such as nothing exists till we realize, or decide it does.

        2. Jeff Berndt profile image91
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sure, they don't work at the quantum level. They were never intended to. But we still routinely use Newton's laws when sending spacecraft into orbit, and to check out other planets, because they consistently work.
          We'd never use them to explore subatomic particles because they don't work for that. It's like I'd never use a screwdriver to put a nail into a board. That doesn't mean the screwdriver is useless.

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I never said they were "uselss". I said science does not know all some of you think it does. There is a big difference in those statements, Jeff.

            1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
              Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "I said science does not know all some of you think it does."
              Uh...so science doesn't have all the answers? Of course it doesn't.
              But it's absolutely the best way of getting answers about the physical universe.
              Your problem seems to be that you take "science doesn't have all the answers," a true statement, and extrapolate it to mean "science is wrong whenever I disagree with it."

              1. TMMason profile image73
                TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No. That is your twisting of my intent. Which is to say; science does not have all the answers. And that is just a fact, jeff. Your problem seems to be that no-one should question what science does and doesn't know.

                I have stated over and over that science is great, but that it doesn't know all and everything. And too many people in the fields tend to act as if it and they do, and they and it, do not

                That is not hard to understand if you stop twisting what i say. go back and read my posts.

                I am tired of science types argueing that science knows... period. And if you question it, your wrong and an idiot. When in fact science is all about questioning. We should never be satified with any answer.

                1. Beelzedad profile image60
                  Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Totally fallacious reasoning. It's obvious though, that those who understand current theories understand them a whole lot better than others who toss out such comments, especially in light of their religious beliefs.

                  Being tired of hearing those arguments just means you're tired of your religious beliefs being contradicted by reality. smile

                2. I am DB Cooper profile image68
                  I am DB Cooperposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No good scientist should be satisfied with what we know about quantum physics. All we know is that we do not know how certain things work, and the solutions so far have just been patches to cover up the holes temporarily while scientists try to work out better answers.

                  This science vs. religion thing has been going on for thousands of years, and the more we learn from science the less we have to resort to "that's the way it works because that's how God wants it to work". People used to think disease was a punishment from God, but now we know certain conditions can cause disease, such as smoking cigarettes or becoming blood brothers with someone who has leprosy.

                  1. Cagsil profile image60
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey DB, people also used to plant seeds, then water them, then pray for growth and when the plant grew, they were convinced it was god's work. lol

              2. vellos profile image60
                vellosposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I just cannot believe that the universe created itself. From what? No, I think a divine being of some sort is needed to start the process. But I don't believe in a god who micro-manages every little detail of ongoing creation. More like an inventor who creates a watch, then sets it on a table to do its thing.

                1. earnestshub profile image86
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I wonder....... who invented the inventor? smile

                  1. dutchman1951 profile image60
                    dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    elfin-magic!

        3. Beelzedad profile image60
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And, of course, you're going to tell us all why they don't work? smile

  14. OutWest profile image60
    OutWestposted 5 years ago

    It is God's work.  He created it all to happen.  You certainly did not create the plant, just planted the seed and had to wait.

 
working