jump to last post 1-50 of 83 discussions (558 posts)

The "Come Argue With Me About Religion" Thread.

  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Okay, I've really taken an interest in the forums for the last few days as I need something to keep my mind off of something.  I've noticed a few things and came up with a few theories on HubPages groupthink.  Thought it be fun to test them out, so here goes:

    I, technically, am a Unitarian Universalist.  That tells you nothing about my PERSONAL views other than I tend to be open-minded about religion.

    My church acknowledges and welcomes worshipers of all religions from Christianity to Wicca to Atheism and believes that each persons path to God (or whatever higher power, including science) is a personal journey with as many possible outcomes as there are personalities.

    I,however, have chosen the path of Christianity.  (Although technically, I'm probably closer to Messianic Jew.)  My personal views (I.E. how I live my life) are pretty conservative.  I believe that the Bible has given me some pretty clear indicators on how I should live my life. (Homeschooled children, deference to my husband, not breaking any of the big ten, etc.)

    Politically, I am a Libertarian.  I am a liberal libertarian in voting and a conservative in personal opinion.

    In short, I don't agree with any of you guys about anything,  mainly because extremism is the sign of a closed mind.

    (Too Long--Didn't Read Version Follows)

    So here is my question... Why are your religious views better than mine?

    1. lone77star profile image90
      lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      But darlin', my views are not "better." They simply are what they are, and they keep changing the more humble I become.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Ditto.  Sorry I couldn't be more eloquent on my own, but that pretty much covers it for me.  smile

    2. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Just so you know. Most atheists get offended when religionists tell them that not believing nonsense about Invisible Super Beings is a "religion."

      Interesting that some of your personal beliefs clash so drastically with what the bible teaches. How on earth do you reconcile the two?

      Where does the bible teach you to home school your children? Surely this is simply so you can indoctrinate them into your own irrational belief system? wink

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        *thumbs up* If Atheist go to this womans church, then they are not atheist. That or they merely go for the traditional aspects, but this doesn't sound like a very traditional fellowship.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Unitarian Universalists like to debate, learn, and do charitable acts.  The atheists in my church are very very much atheists (although not to the point that atheism isn't a strong enough word for their non-belief in religion) Typical "sermons" generally run along the lines of 1. Social Issues 2. Comparative theology or 3.neat and interesting holistic medicine (from traditional christian prayer to shamanistic rituals)  These sermons are more like a guest speaker followed by a Q and A discussion.

          The group as a whole is liberal, but individual beliefs run the full gambit.

      2. mikeb72 profile image60
        mikeb72posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It amazes me that the so called non religious are so religious in their judgmental thinking, this is exactly the thinking you yourself are judging in your response. the conflict between a relationship with God and the religion of man is not reconcilable and neither is the judgment of the so called non religious. Love is the only answer and love is Gods way, not religion. I personally know this invisible super-being you can't conceive of but I can't share him with you because you are too religious to listen with an open mind. I wish you peace and I don't mean to offend but I must be honest if your going to accuse and judge you should at least do it about something you yourself are not guilty of! May God Bless you with the Knowledge of his peace

    3. Zubair Ahmed profile image79
      Zubair Ahmedposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It sounds like you are assuming mine are better than yours  I'm not saying that.  I think the best way to approach each others religion is with understanding and respect.  It would be ideal for you to find out a little bit about mine (and not be watching CNN etc) but by reading about it yourself, and I do the same about your religion - that would gives us both a informed view of each others belief system.

      I don't like the concept of demeaning someone because of their belief or lack-off.

      All the best

    4. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Being open minded means you're willing to entertain ideas and concepts but not necessarily accept them.



      That's not really being open minded because you already have accepted the concept of gods (or whatever higher power). You would need to exclude science from your statement as it has nothing to do with any of those other ideas.



      That's highly unfortunate considering the bible does not promote or teach morals and ethics.



      It would appear you've been indoctrinated into Christianity, which would mean neither closed or open minded, but actually not using your mind at all.

      smile

    5. Greek One profile image82
      Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There are many reasons why my religion is better than yours.

      The first of which is that it is very hard to say "Unitarian Universalist" ten times in a row very fast

      1. C.V.Rajan profile image68
        C.V.Rajanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        smile

    6. Ron Montgomery profile image60
      Ron Montgomeryposted 5 years ago in reply to this



      Because marinara sauce is tastier than grape juice.

    7. jacharless profile image81
      jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      First, Melissa, I love love love that you included even atheism and science into the collective of worshipers. Despite the groups distaste for each others views, vocal outrage of equal comparison, they all share the commons. Such a commonality cannot go ignored nor unnoticed. I have long held the belief that every atheist is still a theist and every theist is an atheist to some degree. A person can change hats, even locale, words and waffle, but it does not change the person.

      In either form, sensation (the religions) or equation (the sciences), humanism is the core of both.

      Now, here is a further point to bring into view: Unitarianism. (Especially Universal Unitarianism, the likes of which came the philosophy of Universal Consciousness).

      A united front, accepting all forms of beliefs, technically unconditional (although there is much support to prove that inaccurate) brings this 'couple' together. It is a very justified view of duality --even some would call it a cure for the dis-ease. Humanism is now reinforced, stabilized, because the bickering is lessened. Together, working in unison, they have now fashioned the roof of Quality on that house of duality, hammered in by nails of tolerance and tact, assertive smiles and stacks of 'facts'.

      But, it is still duality. Duality covered in Quality. Calculated Thinking meets Good Vibrations.

      I am personally opposed to Duality, certainly Quality, as it does not remove nor bring to extinction the problem of humanism. It merely masks it. Humanism must go [imo] and with it will go the problems of humanity -internal and external. Consider all the ancient philosophies. All have one theme implied: altruist. Everything else is pointless and deceptive -by the self or the masses.

      James.

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wait... what's wrong with humanism again?

    8. dutchman1951 profile image61
      dutchman1951posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you for the resume and the personal ackalades.

      exceptional work!      smile

      we are what we are melissa, no view is correct. complete or the best.
      it is just our's  to live and die with...alone.

    9. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

    10. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi there smile

      I dont think my views are any better than yours or anyone elses,but I explain what/how they work for me if someone asks or challenges.

      I also enjoy interacting with people and until they start sounding ...  well stupid it can be really fun ,ocassionally inspiring.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think mine are either, you see there was this other thread and... *sighs*

        I agree with your viewpoint. Eaglekiwi.  That's kind of what I was getting at in the beginning smile

    11. nightwork4 profile image59
      nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      i won't say mine are better but they are my honest beliefs and so far nothing has changed them in the least. why, do you think your views are better then mine?

    12. deblipp profile image60
      deblippposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I like the UUs; they have a long-standing positive relationship with all sorts of religion and an admirable view on faith and society.

      My religion is better for me because it is fulfilling to me in a way that yours would not be.

      If the purpose of religion is for the individual to find intimacy with a Higher Power that enhances the individual's life and serves the will of the Higher Power, then each of us must choose for ourselves.

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Did you know that you are doing damage to the rest of humanity by doing what you've stated? Just thought I would ask. Was curious if you recognize your own actions. That's all. hmm

        1. deblipp profile image60
          deblippposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

    13. www.lookseenow profile image60
      www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      MelissaBarrett
        This thread is becoming enormous, and I didn’t want to get into it again, but I couldn’t resist rephrasing this question:

      Why are your religious views better than mine?
      God’s religious views are better than yours, because he’s organized, but you are not.

      The thoughts of you hubbers are not his thoughts, nor are his ways your ways.  You all state opinions with no references to back it up.  God’s standards are higher than all of that.  As the heavens are higher than the earth, so his ways are higher than our ways.  (Isaiah 55:8-9)

      Get to know him for real—he is a spirit, and those worshiping him must do so with spirit, and truth.  He has an organization.  Find it, and you will know the truth.  Have a Bible study in the publication “What does the Bible really teach?”    http://www.watchtower.org/

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't quote the bible because it has no meaning to anyone but Christians.  Discussions should probably be held in the same language... or at least as close as possible.

        Thank you again for the watchtower link, this is the second time you've posted it to me.  I have examined JW over the years and have found that it doesn't ring true to me.  Thank you though.

        I'm also not sure it is possible for God to have religious beliefs, but that is semantics.  As far as organization, I'm not sure I've ever heard the christian god discribed as organized, thats an interesting assumption smile

        I am only slightly offended at the get to know him for real statement... but it does seem to imply that you know him better than me.  I assume that we are both equally ignorant in our knowledge of our own religion smile

    14. 62
      Rainbow Tribe 101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hello there fellow unitarian!

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Holy Crap... you mean another one actually exists outside of my congregation?

    15. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Your religious views are probably far better than mine. Where and how they are superior is another question altogether.

      My views of Middle Earth and Hobbits may be better than yours if both us lived there, but we don't. Our views are therefore the same because we have only the LOTR books and movies to base our views.

  2. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    I don't believe in a god so I guess you would call me an atheist. A word which is a religious construct.

    One needs only to have not been exposed to religion and indoctrinated.

    To believe that the sexist ramblings of a few goat herders who wrote repeats of repeated stories that have been with us since men believed in ra has anything to do with anything other than money and power to control the gullible is plain foolish in my view. smile

    1. IntimatEvolution profile image81
      IntimatEvolutionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Not in America Earnest.  Here Atheism got it's foundation from a woman, who called herself an Atheist and started the Atheist organization.  So in America, that statement doesn't apply.  It wasn't a religious construct.  She even branded the word as their motto.  She was not only the founder, but, it's president for a long, long, long time.  Then she got sick, and needless to say on her death bed she found GOD.  I always thought that way sooooo ironic.  I was like, are you kidding me???  That would be comparable to something like my hero, famed, smut peddler, Larry Flynt becoming a Republican.lol

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        As I said, the word is a religious construct. What any one decides to call themselves is not important.

        If you trace the history of the word you will find it was first invented as an insult to those who did not follow a certain religious doctrine.
        One does not need a belief system to disbelieve an obvious myth.

  3. 0
    Emile Rposted 5 years ago

    Your church sounds cool. But, what are the atheists doing in church? I find it fascinating that, by your comments, you are so conservative; and yet so open to  the possibly of other paths. You don't run across that combination very often.

  4. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    I don't argue about religion. I point out the obvious actions that dictate religion is a farce and that people are blinded to their own actions. lol

    1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
      schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Isn't that a contradiction?

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Only in the mind of the religious, because they cannot tell the difference of what a contradiction actually is to begin with. lol

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
          schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          this peace you talk about, is it your goal to convert everyone to atheism and then you think by doing that there would be world peace?

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Convert to atheism? Do you not learn anything from what I say?

            Atheism is the flip-side of the coin of religion. In some countries, it IS a religion(unorganized).

            The last thing I would want is a bunch of people to convert to atheism. That only adds to the conflict with other religions.

            Nope. You couldn't be further from the truth. World peace is achieved when people maintain their own responsibility and accountability for self. It isn't achieved in any other manner.

  5. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    Talk about fishing... cut bait people.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      HAHAHA - That was her point, actually.  She was being a bit facetious in response to another thread where someone was trolling quite noticeably.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I should hope. All I went by was the title. i saw no reason to read anymore than that. I didn't mean to be offensive, just honest Mo.

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But you still saw a reason to reply? .....

  6. A.S.K.Preacher profile image60
    A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago

    It is not about whose views are better - but rather whose teachings are TRUE. Truth IS a double-edged sword. It cuts both believers and non-believers. To present the truth is all any believer has. It is up to the individual to make their free will choice.

    Choose wisely what you call the truth. Many have been deceived into believing a lie is the truth. This choice will effect your eternity.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      True teachings about Life and understanding it, has nothing to do with a god and/or religion.
      Actually, believers don't have truth, they have faith and hope. And, that is the TRUTH.
      Wisdom is the only thing that brings truth to the open.
      This is A truth. It's unfortunate believers are the ones who cannot tell the difference(or unwilling/refuse) between the two.
      Eternity? A concept I am sure you cannot fathom, in and of, itself.

      1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image60
        A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Actually teachings about life and understanding is has everything to do with God. He is LIFE  and PEACE. If you want to understand life and what is happening in it read the Bible. God gave this to us as a way in this life as well as an eternal life.
        The truth is believers have truth, faith and hope, and wisdom through all these.
        I love optical illusions. The truth is most who do not believe refuse to see past this illusion.

        1. djoutsider711 profile image60
          djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God is also War, Famine, Pain, and Suffering as well... right? After-all, God is everything... right?

          Gods were never created with the intention of being "truth" but with the intention of explaining the unknown. Yes, I said it, God is an invention. As we like to say it, "God of the gaps". oh, you don't know why that happened? Well god did it of course. :-P

          I think religion is interesting, it did a lot to spur human kind further forward but now we are at the point where the sling shot is rebounding, we either need to release it and continue to move forward or let it drag us back to where we started.

        2. nightwork4 profile image59
          nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          a book written thousands of years ago that is full of riddles, has nothing to do with "life". it's like saying that a mother from that era knows how to educate a kid from this era, it just doesn't work.religion, even when argued by the top religious scholars, breaks down in the end to only one answer and that is faith. not truth, justice or wisdom, but faith.

          1. Jerami profile image77
            Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I do not see the riddles.  ?

               I believe we have many misinterpretations which creates the elusion of riddles. By accepting this belief;  our field of vision is greatly diminished

      2. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
        schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you think "we" are evil?

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Do I think you and others are "evil"? No, just ultimately misguided by self, because you've been distorted by other people's understanding.

  7. aguasilver profile image86
    aguasilverposted 5 years ago

    The only belief worth holding is the one you stake you life on.

    We make our decision and live or die by it.

  8. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    See what happens when you step away from forums to do silly little things like sleep and work?  Anyway, some answers... more forthcomming.

    @ Beelzedad  “Being open minded means you're willing to entertain ideas and concepts but not necessarily accept them.”

    Yep, that’s the point. 

    “That's not really being open minded because you already have accepted the concept of gods (or whatever higher power). You would need to exclude science from your statement as it has nothing to do with any of those other ideas.”

    That’s assuming something about my thought process that is unbased.  I can separate the spiritual from the scientific.  That’s like saying that no Christian believes in the atom because it is not mentioned in the Bible. 

    “That's highly unfortunate considering the bible does not promote or teach morals and ethics”

    It’s as good as any other source out there for determining what is right or wrong.  I mean “Thou shalt not kill” is pretty universal and exists in MOST religions as well as MOST law.  Morals and ethics are highly subjective and can be formed in humans by any number of sources.  If I read a magazine article about volunteerism and I say “Hey, that sounds like the right thing to do” then how is that any less valid than reading a bible verse and having the same reaction?

    “It would appear you've been indoctrinated into Christianity, which would mean neither closed or open minded, but actually not using your mind at all.”

    Now that’s not fair J  I actually spend my life questioning everything, looking at both sides of an issue, and choosing what feels right to me.  I wasn’t raised in a religious household, I chose Christianity after a long, careful review of all options.  Trust me, a blind follower I am not.

    @earnestshub

    “I don't believe in a god so I guess you would call me an atheist. A word which is a religious construct.”

    Duly noted… I shall use “non-religious” instead.

    “One needs only to have not been exposed to religion and indoctrinated”

    I’m not sure I accept religious ignorance as a foundation for superiority.  Generally, non exposure to a subject leads to ignorance on that topic.  I would have accepted “an educated choice to avoid formalized religion based on a comparative study of theology.”

    To believe that the sexist ramblings of a few goat herders who wrote repeats of repeated stories that have been with us since men believed in ra has anything to do with anything other than money and power to control the gullible is plain foolish in my view.

    However old those stories are, they in no way predate a belief in nothing.  When your ancestors climbed down from the trees, they too didn’t believe in God.  The trees probably didn’t believe in God either.  So yeah, my goat herders trump your monkeys.  But seriously, your argument is an example of poisoning the well.  The source of a belief neither ads credence nor detracts from the credibility of the belief.  I.E. just because you believe the same thing as Michael Jackson doesn’t mean you molest children.  Nor do the flaws of any believer apply to the belief itself. 

    And Ra was a pretty awesome God.

    @ lone77star  “But darlin', my views are not "better." They simply are what they are, and they keep changing the more humble I become.”

    So far, you are winning the argument.

    @ Emilie “Your church sounds cool. But, what are the atheists doing in church? I find it fascinating that, by your comments, you are so conservative; and yet so open to  the possibly of other paths. You don't run across that combination very often.”

    This goes back to another comment in another thread.  The vocal minority, I.e. the individuals with the loudest mouths and the most sensational claims, are usually chosen to represent any given group of people.  There are many Christians that can say “This is what I believe, but it doesn’t have to be what you believe”  just as I’m sure that there are many non-religious individuals that don’t assume that a Christian is a mindless automaton that is being puppeted by dogma. 

    @Evolution Guy  “Just so you know. Most atheists get offended when religionists tell them that not believing nonsense about Invisible Super Beings is a "religion."“

    Noted and changed J

    Interesting that some of your personal beliefs clash so drastically with what the bible teaches. How on earth do you reconcile the two?

    LOL, actually my beliefs reconcile perfectly with what the bible has taught me, or they wouldn’t be my beliefs.  Acceptance, love, not hurting people on purpose… those are the things that I’ve learned.  I can’t be responsible for how every Christian interprets the bible any more than a scientist can be responsible for how others in his field interpret the findings of a particular experiment.

    Where does the bible teach you to home school your children? Surely this is simply so you can indoctrinate them into your own irrational belief system?

    Just for the record, I DEPLORE quoting bible verses.  You asked though.

    Proverbs - Chapter 22:6

    Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

    Deuteronomy 6:5-7

    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart; you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up"

    Titus 2:3-6

    3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. 6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled.

    Which, for me, means that it is my job to raise my children, not the governments.  Yes, my kids will be taught what I believe in, as are the children of any parent I guess.  And before you ask, yes my children will be taught creationism, but wait for it, they will also be taught evolution.  Making ones one choices on religion IS the guiding principle of my faith.  Like I said before, I believe that everyone’s journey to their higher power, or lack thereof, is a personal thing.  I plan on/have been/ giving my children whatever information they need to find their path.  My oldest son idenfies with wiccanism, my middle with Christianity, my third has passed away, and my fourth, at two, is a little too young to have any opinions.

    @Greek One “The first of which is that it is very hard to say "Unitarian Universalist" ten times in a row very fast"

    True that.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      OK - Nothing about homeschooling then, Just indoctrination. So we agree. Little wonder your religion has caused so many wars. sad

      Guess you missed the bit about women not preaching huh? And not accepting any other gods? And Jeebus coming to divide?Oh well. Like every one else - you ignore what it says and make your own stuff up.

      "You are either with me - or against me." sed jeebus.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wait... What?

        Wow, ok... I assumed since we were talking about religion, the context of the homeschool question was focused on the religious aspect of their education.

        Of course there's no other education involved.  My children are lined up and taught my horrific religious beliefs of accepting others and finding your own path to spirituality all day long.  No reading, No mathematics, Just 24 hours a day of God.  /sarcasm

        Without going to deeply into secular concerns outside the scope of this thread, I would home-school my children even if I was non-religious.  My two oldest, who are now in the school system by their choice, both agree that they learned more when schooled by me then within the school system.  They both entered the public school system several grades ahead of their peers by testing.  (and I'm pretty sure theology wasn't examined)

        So yes, my kids are SCHOOLED as well as being, as you put it, indoctrined. 

        Now, please, show me a war that was started by Unitarian Universalists.  I mean did we stand on a border somewhere shouting "You will accept our acceptance or we will perform humanitarian work against your will"?  I must have missed that one. 

        Wait, before I go any farther, you really didn't read anything about my religious beliefs did you?  You are just clumping me into a group so that you can formulate an argument that aligns with your preconceived notions of religion.

        So, once again, how is your non-religion better than my religion?

        1. Evolution Guy profile image61
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Easy. I am not forced to lie to defend it. You quite clearly stated, and I quote:


          And I asked where the bible instructed you to homeschool your children and you immediately veer off to claim some moral superiority. And you don't understand why this causes wars? Awww - do some more semantics.

          Do you teach them that homosexuality is wrong along with trying to damage their ability to reason by filling their heads with nonsense about creationism being "science"?

          This is child abuse. So - this is why my non-religion is better than your religion. I have morals and ethics which I developed myself based on sound reasoning and respect for others. You cannot do this and need to selectively get yours from the bible and then teach your children that they will burn in hell if they do not follow Jesus and start fights like this. sad

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, I didn't go off on a superiority rant, I showed you the bible verses that spoke to me.  You are the one that assumed that I taught my children nothing but religion.  There was a whole conversation between the two quotes.  Quoting out of context is lying.  Just saying.



            Wow, where did you get that I was anti-gay?  Seriously?  Where?  Are you actually reading anything I write?  And I actually said that both theories were being taught to my kids.  I never said creationism was science, I actually said I can separate the two. And, once again, giving them more than one option somehow damages their ability to reason?  Because, honestly, I would think that being presented with differing viewpoints would increase that ability. 



            Wait!  What?  Spending time with my kids, teaching them about all subject matters and giving them all the different possibilities is child abuse?  Oh hell, I guess I've been going about this the wrong way.  I guess I'll hand them to strangers who will teach them according to one textbook.  They'll learn the ability to reason that way. 

            Honestly, I think you are trying to be inflammatory now because you have no idea how to reasonably discuss your beliefs.  You haven't once responded with anything reasonable, just attacks on what you believe I think.  Which is strange since it is apparently completely contradictory to what I am actually typing.



            Sorry, I'm just not seeing any of that respect here.  And if your sound reasoning is based on reading comprehension, then you have a serious problem.



            So the part about my son being a wiccan, you like completely glossed over that.  And the 5 or so times that I said that it was a personal choice what path to follow?  You conveniently skipped that too.

    2. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It's easy to separate them, one is fantasy, the other reality, one exists while the other does not.

      It's like saying Christians don't understand the atom because they believe in the bible. If you had a thought process, you would understand atoms, not believe in them.



      The bible? Sorry, but the bible does not promote morals or ethics, it threatens you. And, we can post one quote after another that shows no moral or ethics of any kind, things that you would never do even though the bible threatens you to do them.

       

      So what? Do you actually believe that originated from the bible? Are you saying you would be killing people if you didn't read that from the bible? 



      Now you are contradicting yourself. You just said they are universal, so how can they be subjective?

       

      Really? Do these sound like the morally and ethically right things to do?

      "Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid."   (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

      "The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."   (Hosea 13:16 NLT)

      "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."   (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)



      Sorry, but it is quite evident you did no such thing.



      Yeah sure, you looked at all the religions of the world and chose Christianity. Your posts would indicate quite substantially you are a blind follower, like many others here.

      smile

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I do understand the atom, but since I have never actually    seen one, I must make do with simply believing in them.
        Science, like religion, is just a way to explain things.  That's why theories are called theories.



        I never felt particularly threatened by a bible.  Mine isn't very heavy though, so even if it fell on me, it wouldn't hurt very much.



        No, actually I don't.  The torah predates the bible and thats where moses got the whole tablet thing. Even without the tablet thing, the no killing thing has been a part of even vaquely formalized society since man was able to determine that being dead was a bad thing. Would I be killing people if the bible didn't say it was bad? I'm not sure.  There have been times that I have been tempted.  Its hard to say what part of my moral code came from where.  Are you saying that if the survial of the species wasn't genetically built into human instinct that you would be killing people?



        Actually, I said pretty universal, "pretty" being a qualifier that means approximately "most of the time but not always"



        Nope, so I probably wouldn't do them.



        Evident to you apparantly.  Since you have been involved in my decision making process since my birth, I guess you saw what I missed.



        Not all of them, just the twelve or so biggest.  In case you missed it in the opening post, that is what my religion does.  We have comparitive religion debates during services.  Once again, all religions are represented within unitarian universalist churches.  Including non-religious individuals.  Although those that go to my chuch just go ahead and call themselves atheists.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I see, you believe everything you hear as opposed to doing the research yourself in order to gain an understanding. In other words, we could say anything we wanted in regards to the characteristics and properties of atoms and you would believe it without understanding any of it?



          Really? And, what things does religion explain?



          Same here, but the followers of the bible feel compelled to constantly threaten everyone else with it's contents.



          Surely, you're joking.



          Morals are the result of evolution as is our instinct to survive. No gods were required.



          But, they are in the bible, and you are commanded to follow the bible or else you're a hypocrite for choosing one thing and not another.



          I can only go by your posts which are evident that you don't question anything, you simply believe what you hear based on your religious indoctrination.

          smile

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            LMAO, sorry didn't know I was talking to a molecular engineer.  It have been cool for you to see that atom... what did it look like? :)You do realize I have a degree right?  Two of them actually.  To say that I have never in my life researched anything is non only presumptive, but patently impossible.



            Seriously?  You can not accept that a person can read a religious text and find a passage that answers a philosophical question?  To me, it explains why I am here, it gives me a reason to be the best person I can be, it gives me an explanation on why my son was taken away from me at the age of three, and it gives me hope that I will see him again one day.  It helps me make sense of all the horrible things that happen in the world and gives me inspiration to maybe change one or two of them.  But, if you've got a scientific theory that can wrap all that up for me, I'm all ears. 

            And yes, it is an emotional thing, but such things exist.  Which is kinda my point.  Faith is, by nature irrational.  Science is rational.  Faith is good for things of an irrational nature, such as "Why is humanity so ugly when humans are so beautiful?" Science is good for questions like "why is the sky blue?"  The two can really exist because they essentially answer two different kinds of questions.

            In short, science can explain sex.  Religion can explain love. 



            In my entire life, I have never threatened anyone with either the contents of a bible or the bible itself.  I may have told many a person to go to hell, but I have never assumed that they were actually going there.  (Believe it or not, I dislike people who do that almost as much as you do.)

            So...scientifically speaking, doesn't one exception (and I'm not the only one) prove fallablility of a theory?  Inductive reasoning and all.  Something about a raven and somesuch.  I wouldn't know anything about scientific theory though, being religious and all.   



            Actually, I'm not.  There have been events in my life that I probably could have actually killed a person over and legally gotten away with it.  Christianity helped me forgive that person.



            Actually, evolutionarily speaking, certain human qualities like trust and forgiveness are actually contrary to the survival instinct.  Even at the "survival of the species" rather than "survival of the individual" level. 

            And the idea that Gods were not needed in the development of human civilization is absurd.  The congregation of human beings through out history has almost always resulted in the formation of a common religious belief system. The societal human psyche  needs a force greater than itself. 

            In many cases the scientific development of any given people rested on the shoulders of this religion.  This isn't true only of primitive cultures, the main driving force of the Renascence era was the catholic church.  It produced scholars who were both clergymen and scientists.  These individuals gave us theories that are, of yet, undisputed.





            Nope, I'm not a hypocrite as my behavior identically matches exactly what I have been explaining as my belief system.  My religion encourages the use of any source or portion of that source to develop ones own personal viewpoints on the existence (or nonexistence) of God. I am not a hypocrite for not matching YOUR definition of a religious individual. 




            LMAO, okay.  And what again, is that indoctrination?  Tell me, specifically how I feel about any specific topic... How do I feel about gay marriage, for example?  Or abortion?  How about spanking, do I hit my kids?  LOL, let's even talk about my view on creationism...  What were those again?  And how about the war in Iraq? How do I feel about that again? 

            Once again, you are stereotyping and assigning your belief system to me, even when given contradictory evidence. That's pretty ironic since you claim that I, being a christian, am closed minded.  Even if you can't quite tell me how.  But I must be though, because YOUR indoctrination into the non-religious faith says it is true.

        2. 0
          jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nobody understand an atom, we only visualize an atom. see when somebody say "apple", you visualize one, not understand.
          Yes, science is an explanation, but is a rational explanation, while religion is irrational or supernatural.(by irrational I mean contradictory and supernatural means like magic)




          Survival of species? You mean survival of tribes. The whole human history is filled with wars, also, you forget about cannibalism. You may be tempted to kill, but I won't kill even if somebody gives me a million dollar for that, and I don't give a damn about bible. And without bible if you kill, what you need is a good policing, not bible.

    3. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Then something is very wrong with the thought processes...very wrong.

      I fail to see the justification for your conclusion.



      http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy268/dashrock11/th_question-mark3a.jpg

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you for asking smile

        Actually I chose Christianity because I felt that Jesus was a pretty good role model for the traits that I aspire to.  I would like to heal the sick, help children and forgive the people that have hurt me. I find comfort in the idea of an afterlife and like to believe that I would be able to make the ultimate sacrifice if it could save someone else that I care about. 

        The actual wording of the bible means very little to me, except that sometimes I find certain passages inspirational.  Those that can judge an entire book based on a paragraph they disliked confuse me.

  9. livelonger profile image90
    livelongerposted 5 years ago

    Thanks, Melissa, for a thoughtful--and yet funny--discussion.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      wink You're welcome

  10. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    @earnestshub

    “I don't believe in a god so I guess you would call me an atheist. A word which is a religious construct.”

    Duly noted… I shall use “non-religious” instead.

    Thank you, that would be much more accurate.



    “One needs only to have not been exposed to religion and indoctrinated”

    I’m not sure I accept religious ignorance as a foundation for superiority.  Generally, non exposure to a subject leads to ignorance on that topic.  I would have accepted “an educated choice to avoid formalized religion based on a comparative study of theology.”


    Much better wording, thank you.


    To believe that the sexist ramblings of a few goat herders who wrote repeats of repeated stories that have been with us since men believed in ra has anything to do with anything other than money and power to control the gullible is plain foolish in my view.


    However old those stories are, they in no way predate a belief in nothing.  When your ancestors climbed down from the trees, they too didn’t believe in God.  The trees probably didn’t believe in God either.  So yeah, my goat herders trump your monkeys.

    How would you assume your goat herders "trump" my monkeys? And why would anyone believe that a tree would believe in a god?

      But seriously, your argument is an example of poisoning the well.  The source of a belief neither ads credence nor detracts from the credibility of the belief.

    I can't agree here.

    Source is most important when establishing credibility, as is track record.

    I.E. just because you believe the same thing as Michael Jackson doesn’t mean you molest children.  Nor do the flaws of any believer apply to the belief itself.

    If the source of that belief threatens others, makes itself better than others as does the christian belief, then it's time to look at the belief itself.

    And Ra was a pretty awesome God.

    ra is still awesome, but was never a god any more than the psychotic ones in the quoran and bible are. Nor did ra rule over all like the biblical god also claims.
    ra was one of the first boogyman gods used to control the ignorant and gullible of the time, who could with few exceptions, (church leaders in the main) neither read nor write.

    Sitting ducks! lol

    Start with fear and you end up with hate. smile

  11. jacharless profile image81
    jacharlessposted 5 years ago

    MelissaBarrett,

    I see you have met the resident determinist.
    "One of Many' Hub Pages persona's of Mark Knowles.

    He is relatively harmless. Besides, Lacto-vegetarians need food too, but so malnourished. ( jeje ).

    James.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Do ya love, love love that she thinks non belief in majik is  a religion, 21 days? LOLOLO No wonder u cause so many wars in the 800 years u will live. lol

      1. jacharless profile image81
        jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        She is no different than you Marcus.
        you just prefer the Potter calling the kettle Sirius Black.

        lol lol

  12. Joseph Lane profile image61
    Joseph Laneposted 5 years ago

    I am a left wing secular humanist (atheist, whatever the hell folks call heathens nowadays).  Believe what you wish, but remember that there are folks out there, like me, that think it's all complete bollocks. smile

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't really call you guys anything... but apparently the term is non-religious.  Next week it will be Atheistic American or somesuch.

      And I know and accept that smile

  13. Jeff Berndt profile image91
    Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago

    Melissa,

    My religious views aren't "better" than yours. In fact, they're probably pretty close to yours.

    I'm not the churchgoing type, but the church that I don't go to is a Unitarian one.

    As I always say, there's nothing we Unitarians can't do if we really aren't sure just what the heck it is that we believe in. smile

  14. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    LOL!

    Here's a couple jokes for you from a UU Church's website... if nothing else we are one of the few religions that can laugh at ourselves...


    What do you get when you cross a UU with a Jehovah’s Witness? Someone who goes door-to-door looking for a discussion.

    Q: Why did the Unitarian-Universalist cross the road?
    A: To support the chicken in its search for its own path


    A Unitarian Universalist died, and to his surprise discovered that there was indeed an afterlife. The angel in charge of these things told him, “Because you were an unbeliever and a doubter and a skeptic, you will be sent to Hell for all eternity — which, in your case, consists of a place where no one will disagree with you ever again!”

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      Well, I have to say; I have never had an urge to enter a church but if I was going to go to one it would be a UU church. You make it sound like a cool place.

  15. www.lookseenow profile image60
    www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago

    Replace your question with another Why are my religious views better than yours? I would never make such a statement, because everyone is entitled to his own belief.  However I do support what the Bible really teaches.  After a systematic Bible study, and in time you decide whether to believe, accept, and dedicate your life to God based on what he has taught you, and then you convince yourself that your religion is the truth.  That’s when the truth has made you free.   http://www.watchtower.org/

  16. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Wow, someone actually resurrected this thread.  That's a long way back to go for an argument...


    @Jomine

    "Nobody understand an atom, we only visualize an atom. see when somebody say "apple", you visualize one, not understand.
    Yes, science is an explanation, but is a rational explanation, while religion is irrational or supernatural.(by irrational I mean contradictory and supernatural means like magic)"

    You may visualize an atom or an apple, but trust me there are those that understand it.  And as far as rational/irrational I have two points 1.  Rational/Irrational is subjective and depends on the person interpreting it.  2. Irrational thinking is not inherently bad.  Humans make decisions using intuition (irrational), Logic (rational) and emotions (usually irrational).  Saying that all decisions/interpretation/beliefs must be based completely on logic is not only impossible but if possible would be horribly damaging to the human condition.

    Survival of species? You mean survival of tribes. The whole human history is filled with wars, also, you forget about cannibalism.

    Yes, survival of tribes-if you must phrase it that way-.  Humans exist in tribes.  Some tribes are larger than other but basically any human settlement is a tribe.  Each "tribe" has to have at least a basic agreement of norms to function.  In most cases, religion provides that norm.  In that way it serves an incredibly important function. Aberrant behavior, including cannibalism, exists in small isolated groups.  It is generally the religion of another nearby group that stomps it out.


    "You may be tempted to kill, but I won't kill even if somebody gives me a million dollar for that, and I don't give a damn about bible. And without bible if you kill, what you need is a good policing, not bible."

    I wouldn't kill someone for a million dollars either, however I have been tempted to kill someone for free.  Try standing 2 feet away from the person that caused your child's death 15 minutes after he died.  No police in the world could have kept me calm, however a belief in God did.   

    @lookseenow

    "Replace your question with another Why are my religious views better than yours? I would never make such a statement, because everyone is entitled to his own belief.  However I do support what the Bible really teaches.  After a systematic Bible study, and in time you decide whether to believe, accept, and dedicate your life to God based on what he has taught you, and then you convince yourself that your religion is the truth.  That’s when the truth has made you free"

    Actually, that wasn't the intention of this thread... it lost meaning when the thread I was addressing with the question disappeared.  If you had read through my statements throughout the thread, I don't actually believe that one belief system (or nonsystem) is better than another.  I just feel that everyone should have their own beliefs without 1. Trying to convert someone else 2. Being thought of as ignorant because their beliefs differ and 3.  It being assumed that just because a person believes a religion (any religion) that they share identical beliefs as every other person that believes in that religion.  I.E. Just because I am a christian doesn't mean that I am anti-gay even if the most vocal conservative christians
    are.

    Furthermore, don't say "I believe that everyone is entitle to his beliefs" and then say "However I do support what the Bible really teaches"  You know only what the Bible has taught to YOU.  What it taught to me may be quite different yet equally as valid.  I have completed a systematic study of the bible and have reached my own beliefs.  I am quite willing to listen to your beliefs (I have let many a witness into my home, had wonderful conversations but still not shared their views)but I have very little hope in meaningful discussion when it is prefaced with "what this book REALLY says".  I am, after all, quite capable of reading.

    1. 0
      jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Humans may think/behave illogically, irrationally or even idiotically, but nature does not. Good and bad are subjective and a human construct. By irrational I meant contradictory. A human can say contradictory stuff, but nature never act contradictory. Say, the relativist say 'nothing' suddenly got length , width and height to become 'something'. But nothing can never suddenly do that. That is 'irrational'. Religions say god waved his magic wand, magic- nothing is suddenly converted to something. Nobody in human history can explain such a feat, nor anybody has seen it. It is supernatural and a past event. And past events can only be explained rationally. In nature there is nothing irrational or supernatural.



      In most cases religion usurp that role. There are norms in every society, including insect societies. In humans, priest took over as arbiters for their own good 





      smile
      So if your child died of an accident or from a disease you will kill your god?
      Being tempted and doing it is entirely different. So many innocent persons think they can kill without a qualm, but give a pistol they will back away. Just ask anybody, who haven't killed even an animal, to kill a chicken(let alone human), most people will back away, no belief in god needed!!

  17. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    I stand for lots of things, I just don't expect the world to stand with me.

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No Christian expects the world to stand with 'em.
      We can and do, however, expect other children of God to stand with us.

      1. livelonger profile image90
        livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Your specific type of Christian expects the country to stand with the Southern Baptist definition of marriage, though, right?

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          My specific "type" of Christian believes the Lord when He said there is obtainable forgiveness for all sins except blasphemy against Him.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Blasphemy could mean so many different things...  It's a dangerous word with no firm definition except in the mind of the person saying it.

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I am a Christian, and I don't expect every other Christian in the world to agree with me.  Where does that fit into the equation?

        My views and beliefs apply to me only... I.E.  I don't believe in abortion, so I wont get one.  I don't get how it is my responsibility to ensure that no other woman in the world gets one either.  Nor do I think it is my responsibility to convert the masses.

        So either I am not a Christian, which is news to me, or not every Christian in the world feels the need to stand with every other Christian (especially if they don't agree with their actions)

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The basic views and beliefs of a Christian is the same for all Christians.   Read your Bible about the conversion and witnessing laws.

          And no, not all Christians will believe the same on everything.  But on the basics, they will, whether it's at conversion of whether it's after they've grown as a child of God.   But at some point, all will believe the basics, the fundamentals, of repentance leading to forgiveness, and witnessing about His sovreignty and mercy, and each will have the desire for other souls to be saved.

          Many have already bowed at the feet of the spirit of liberalism.  I don't expect you to be any different.  At least not currently.   But later, yes, if you are to stand as a Christian.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Why does everyone keep assuming that I cannot read?  Yes, I really did read the book that is the foundation of my faith... I read several others in comparison as well.  If you are getting that it is your job to convert, then good for you.  I didn't interpret that way.  If I go to hell for being wrong, so be it.  My spirit wouldn't be happy in a heaven that accepted only those who converted others by forcing their will anyway.  I refuse to believe heaven is full of people with the personalities of used car salesmen.



            I agree with everything you say... except probably the definition of witnessing.  Witnessing is not belittling people or their lifestyles.  Witnessing is not forcing people to agree with a very narrow definition of a specific passage in the Bible.  Witnessing is not excluding whole groups from the joy of Christianity based on what you believe is the truth.  It's not bullying and its not interfering in any other persons search for spirituality.  Witnessing is just that... giving testimony.  Testimony is only given when one is questioned.  "Beating the Jesus" into someone... either verbally, physically, by inflicting sanctions for not having the same beliefs is against everything that Jesus stood for. 



            Is that supposed to make me feel so insufficient at my belief in in God that I go bomb an abortion clinic or disrupt the grieving of a family to prove I love Christ?  I know who I am, I know what my beliefs are and I feel no need to scream them to the heavens.  God knows my heart.  Anything else is just posturing for the public.

  18. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago

    Just popping in to disagree with everyone as the title of the post suggests.

    Other than that, wishing you all peace!

    wink

    1. shogan profile image88
      shoganposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree with you, Motown!  I think you came here mostly to agree!  mad

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You are mistaken, shogan.  I did indeed come to disagree with anyone being disagreeable.  YOU are being disagreeable and so I disagree with you.

        tongue

        1. shogan profile image88
          shoganposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This is outrageous and I am outraged.  Show me where I said you had to agree with any of my disagreement!  You're using some below-the-belt tactics now.

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            shogan, I think you need to check your facts.  This whole thread is about arguing, did you not pay attention?  Really, if I hadn't come to argue, why would I even be here?

            roll

            lol tongue

            1. shogan profile image88
              shoganposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well played, Motown!  lol  big_smile

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                *Bows*  Thank you ever so much.  I'm getting this forum stuff DOWN! big_smile

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm watching you two smile  You both are going to a bad place where the tortures of monotony go hand in hand with having to live the same scenario over and over with no change or hope for an ending...

                  Oh wait... You're here already...

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    lol

                    Sorry, Melissa.  Just had to jump in and have the standard forum disagreement and I thought this would be the place for it today!

                    Carry on, my friend.  You're doing quite well, btw.

            2. Lymond profile image85
              Lymondposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              This is not an argument, it's just contradiction!

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm sorry, but this thread is clearly about arguing, which is very clearly about contradiction, therefore, if I'm being clearly contradictory, then I'm clearly arguing.

                Have I made myself clear?

                wink

                1. Lymond profile image85
                  Lymondposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Not at all :-)

                  I say that an argument is a contradiction but a contradiction is not necessarily an argument.

                  Socrates died,
                  all cats die
                  therefore Socrates was a cat!

                  ps is this the 5 minute argument or the 1/2 hour?

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Unlike most posters, I take time to formulate my clever and witty responses.  I agree with you that Socrates was indeed a cat if you use that sort of logic, but my logic is so much more circular (and I don't believe you can contradict that) that I would rather say that Socrates was philosophically a much greater cat than the other cats who die.  Therefore:

                    All cats die.
                    Socrates died.
                    Therefore Socrates was a lion.

                    Do you see what it is I'm trying to say?

                    lol

  19. 0
    Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago

    Personally, I have come to the conclusion that arguing about religion is a dead end.  As a relgious person, I once argued vehemently against the atheist, because I was sure they were wrong.  Now, as a convert to atheism, I am amazed at what I perceive to be the ignorance of the religious.  Perhaps though we are all at different points in our lives, on our individual journeys.  If someone is at a point in life when they need religion, no amount of arguments, no matter how rational, and no matter how backed-up by scientific evidence will convince them if they do not want to be convinced.  It is possible for the evangelical fundamentalist to be convinced by the atheistic rationale, and equally possible for the atheist to be converted to a belief in God.  It depends what we need in our lives, as well as how we have been raised and what problems we have in our lives at the time.  At this moment in time, I doubt I will ever again be convinced by the belief in a God, but I cannot say this for sure.

  20. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    There is no argument.

    It's all very simple.

    Once upon a time god made himself, then he made mankind, then he killed them all because they were no good, then he came back as his own son and killed himself.

    There ya go, a quick summary of the book that must be god's word cos it says so. smile

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      By the way, the quoran runs the same way except for details when it comes to some of the threats, and the glorification of the OT god through Mohammed's hate filled book of haize.

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I wish there was a way to bite people over the internet smile

      "Once there was nothing,then it exploded"  ~The scientific story of the universe.

      We are traveling on a disc carried by elephants sitting on the back of a turtle flying through space ~Terry Pratchett's story of the universe

      “The creator of the universe works in mysterious ways. But he uses a base ten counting system and likes round numbers.”  Scott Adams  I like this one best smile

  21. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Listen to the series on BBC by Lawrence Krauss. Argue with him about it, or bring an argument back here and we will have a go at it.

    I did my penance reading the bible.
    Why don't religionists read about current science and argue against them?
    Because they can't understand science and don't understand the application of scientific method.

    Lawrence Krauss has won awards for his ability to make science available to lay people in his lectures.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's pretty insulting.  I don't assume you don't have emotions because you make a logical argument.  Its not cool to assume I am stupid because I believe in something for emotional reasons.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I did not call anyone stupid as I see it, I am pointing out that religionists should read and be informed about science and what it says as opposed to your version of what it has to say.

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I enjoy some science ,and when my sons went through school right up to High School ,as a good mum ,I kept my self interested ( to make sure they completed assignments) lol but for me personally ,there are some topics that dont interest me a lot.

          (Specially now they are in their 20s talkin all about Physics???-Help, lol nah its all good)

          I mean these are kids who still ask me how long does it take to boil an egg wink and I think so long as people learn...tis better than remaining closed.

          Hate sounding sexist ,but it is more of a guy thing -dont ya think?

          I try Earnest ,truly I do ,haha,but for example if a documentary comes on TV ,Im good for 10mins ,then I start thinking should I paint my toenails bronze or hot pink? smile

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I get bored easily too, but not with documentaries usually.

            Krauss is anything but boring, thus all the awards. smile

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I do and I very rarely argue about a scientific theory.  I don't seek to disprove anything that the scientific community puts out.  The only scientific process that I've ever had a major problem with is the use of induction.  Just because I have a psychological block to both generalization and predicting events based on past behavior.

          I generally accept the experts when they come to conclusions outside of my field of expertise. If Bob the astronomer believes he has found a black hole in some far away galaxy, he probably bloody well has.  I just don't see how the existence of that black hole means that God doesn't exist.

          I have worked in the medical field and I've done extensive research in botany. I work as a lay herbalist (which btw, sounds all mystical but is pretty logical in application) and a technical writer.  Trust me, my technical articles don't start with "In the beginning, God created descriptive epidemiology"



          Again, my version of scientific matters very seldom contradicts the offical scientific findings...  When it does it generally is along the lines of "There is no scientific proof that XXX causes YYY" followed by my reaction of "Well if 86 percent of those with YYY have taken XXX, there may be a connection there that you haven't found yet"

  22. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    "Humans may think/behave illogically, irrationally or even idiotically, but nature does not. Good and bad are subjective and a human construct. By irrational I meant contradictory. A human can say contradictory stuff, but nature never act contradictory. Say, the relativist say 'nothing' suddenly got length , width and height to become 'something'. But nothing can never suddenly do that. That is 'irrational'. Religions say god waved his magic wand, magic- nothing is suddenly converted to something. Nobody in human history can explain such a feat, nor anybody has seen it. It is supernatural and a past event. And past events can only be explained rationally. In nature there is nothing irrational or supernatural."

    So your problem with religion comes down to creation?  *Nods* Okay.  That's a tough one and one that I don't have the answer for. You are right, no one was here and no one has witnessed it.  There are no facts, just theories.  I have my own beliefs on what happened but they don't follow either any set scientific or religious ideas.  And honestly, the reason I marginally care is because I've had to answer the question for my kids the best that I could. 

    And I don't really differentiate nature from science or God.  To me the world and everything in it has aspects of both.  A tree can be admired as a work of God, studied as a biology specimen, or broken down to its cellular components by a geneticist.  It can be written about by a poet or burned for fuel by a realist.  None of those interactions is inherently better than another.

    I disagree that nature is rational.  Rationality is a function of thought.  Therefore any description or rationality can only be applied to beings that are sentient.  To my knowledge, every sentient being is capable of irrational behavior.

    As far as nature, as a whole, contradicting herself... it happens all the time.  Animals are born with organs that they don't need but can cause health issues... Trees and plants flower and bloom before last frost, leading to their death. I've seen the sun shine while it was raining... help me out if any of these work for you because otherwise I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean by non-contradictory. 

    If you are saying that a rock is a rock and doesn't contradict itself by being a rock then I agree fully, I guess, but it still doesn't disprove the existence of a God, nor science at that matter.


    "In most cases religion usurp that role. There are norms in every society, including insect societies. In humans, priest took over as arbiters for their own good"

    Persons can be ruled without consent, however PEOPLE cannot, at least not for any amount of time that is developmentally significant.  Humans will strive to form hierarchical and belief systems when none are present.  In short, priests didn't usurp anything.  Their followers put them there.  When they are removed, there will be someone else to fill their place.  Personal beliefs are quite different from group behavior. The role of religion-in all its forms (including science guys-sorry) is necessary to the survival of the human race. There must always be a source of answers to questions and there must always be someone in charge.   

    "So if your child died of an accident or from a disease you will kill your god?"

    People do it every day. Although since God exists within them, it generally is a spiritual suicide.

    "Being tempted and doing it is entirely different."

    Human beings are animals.  Maternal instinct in almost any other species would have lead to a severed jugular. That's the side of nature that has nothing to do with trees or pretty streams. By your reasoning, I as an animal, could not have possibly been wrong by ripping his throat out with my teeth. I would have been acting in a completely rational and non-contradictory way. 


    "So many innocent persons think they can kill without a qualm, but give a pistol they will back away."

    And every human being also possesses the potential to kill, torture, rape etc.  For every three people that would back away, there is one who would take the gun. There has to be some force that acts contrary to nature to control those instincts.

    "Just ask anybody, who haven't killed even an animal, to kill a chicken(let alone human), most people will back away, no belief in god needed!!"

    Chickens die everyday, in mass... they aren't committing suicide.  There are hundreds of reasons to kill things or people.  If you are relying on the laws of nature... or some inborn human kindness... to keep this from happening, then you are likely to be disappointed.  The reason that humans don't kill other humans like animals in nature kill other animals is a shared belief system that says those instincts/urges are wrong.  During the development of the human race, this has historically been religion.

    1. 0
      jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Oh! No. That is only regarding the creation part. I have so many reasons to disagree with religion.



      I should've been more specific. When I said nature it only meant the matter that made up nature.



      I had given the examples. Creation in any form is contradiction. saying gravity can push is a contradiction. Matter suddenly ceasing to exist is a contradiction. Telling space has dimension is similar.


      There you are.


      Existence exist by definition. See you don't prove your chair exist or your right hand exist. You just show it. Or just try proving the existence of your right hand. Similarly if god exists, exist by the definition of the word exist. You don't believe or not believe existence, that is irrational.




      Humans can be ruled as long as you don't change the existing order drastically. If you read "the Prince", this is beautifully elaborated with examples. (that is the shortest book I can recommend.)



      smile That's  why in law such emotional actions carry less severe punishment!!




      You just try the experiment, it is you who will be disappointed. Only the first will be difficult, the subsequent ones will not be.



      You will also find that this is the same in any societies, irrespective of it being human. See lions after a take over kill all the young ones, but they never kill their own young. The lioness in a pride look after the injured. All these are done without any religion. Cause of the superiority complex of man, he just call it 'instinct'. Any society, be it insects or reptiles or mammals, have a given set of rules. There is no religion. Only in man, the priests or religion took over it and manipulate for their advantage. The so called science(relativity), is no different. Humans as you said are basically irrational and illogical, as thinking or using the brain consumes the highest 'energy' and every living animal will try to use as less energy as possible. Fear of the unknown and indoctrination are the easiest tools for manipulation of humans. It was more so in ancient societies. The name of god itself was enough to make human do stuff that they normally do or not do.

  23. djoutsider711 profile image60
    djoutsider711posted 5 years ago

    MelissaBarrett,

    I am sure you are a very kind woman in person and have a very sincere heart and mind.

    As an humanist atheist myself, I cant say that my beliefs or religion is better than yours, because it isn't a comparison in the least. It would be like trying to find something in common with the void of space and a rock...

    In 1963, the following definition of atheism was given to the Supreme Court during the case of Murray v. Curlett which later removed reverential Bible reading and oral recitation of the Lord's Prayer in public schools:

    “An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
    An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.
    An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
    He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
    He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
    He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

    The ONLY way I can say that Atheism is better than your personal beliefs (or any religious dogma for that matter)is that we do good things with no hope of living eternally.

    I personally hate how everyone tries to lump people up into certain groups. Until we can all look past that and just say, "Hey, you know what.. you are HUMAN and so am I. How about we just get along, screw the rest" we will NEVER EVER reach a point of true peace and happiness.

    I think that is kinda what Atheist have in mind when we denounce all gods... it humbles us on a whole new level and pulls our heads out of the clouds, forcing us to deal with the issues at hand HEAR and NOW in this very real world we are living in.

    I hope you are learning something of value from all this discussing... I just wanted to drop in and show you what Atheism and Humanism is really about.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Have you ever questioned why you have emotions ,like love,sadness,pain,joy,etc?

      Where did they come from ?

      The power to reason etc. The minds process in making a decision for example.

      Who wired you so intricately wink who designed the bodies auto immune system?


      I think it takes more faith to believe in Atheism that it takes to believe in Jesus Christ...wink

      1. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's called, evolution.

        And, it takes faith to believe in Jesus and thinking to understand atheism and evolution. smile

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But whatever you believe or think you evolved from..how did that/matter evolve to begin with...?

          Where did that first cell come from?

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Are you really looking for an answer, or are you simply stating observations to support your presupposition that 'Goddunit!"

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am interested in hearing how an what brings some people to the conclusion they do.

              Support my faith ? lol now why would you think somehow it would ...

              Dont assume to analyse me getitrite ,just answer the bloody question lol

              1. getitrite profile image79
                getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                OK, to answer your bloody quesion:  I simply don't know.  Why can you not understand why one would come to that conclusion?  Please explain.

                Now could you be as honest as I have been, or will you resort to fabricating a whimsical world of imaginary beings who are doing things under the cloak of invisibilty?

                Let me answer:  You can't!

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Wow..you must have some seriously interesting conversations with  just yourself.

                  First you ask me a question -then you dont -then you do -then you answer it yourself,and justify why you have answered the question intended for me lol

                  1. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Would that be like praying to imaginary Jesus? lol




                    But I did answer the question truthfully...because due to your rigid indoctrination, you cannot answer your own questions honestly, and have to resort to fraudulent primitive fairytales to explain a reality you know very little about.

                    Just be honest, and state that "you don't know!"

          2. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Those are questions that require you take the time to understand evolution, but I know you won't bother. Instead, you will deny or ignore anything anyone writes about it here and continue to fabricate stories based on your belief system and lack of critical thinking skills.

            And, the only reason you ask those questions is to detract away from others calling you on your fabricated stories. smile

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thats a cop out and you know it-pokes my tongue out tongue

              1. Beelzedad profile image59
                Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Not really, it's based on facts and observation of your posts. We've been down that road many times already and you've been caught red handed fabricating stories and ignoring or denying what others offered you in the form of understanding. smile

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Let the record show :

                  You decline to answer.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image59
                    Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    More fabrications, many, including myself have already answered you before on those type of questions. Stop lying. smile

                  2. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    This is the type of behavior that ensues once the foundations of your irrational beliefs have been shattered. 

                    Your responses are now based completely on the strawman fallacy...like an ego defense mechanism employed when you have no way to defend your position.

          3. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "Where did the first cell come from?"

            That is something our scientist are still working on... it truly is a mystery at this stage. DNA research will likely lead to many advancements in that field. However, I see no reason to profess God the one who started it all... This is the problem mos tAtheist have with the belief in gods.. it gives a so-so answer to BIG questions. It doesn't really answer anything because then (if we follow this train of thought) we ask, "well, if everything is created... the starts, the earth, life itself, who created god?" Luckily, "Who created God" is easy to answer..... MAN created god, just like J.R.R. Tolkien created the world of Middle Earth. It is fiction... plain and simple.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well I hail from middle earth and I can tell you I am willing to disagree right there -my neighbours were indeed Hobbits lol

              1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                :-P Humor is appreciated.

                The example I gave is a fairly accurate one to the ways of reasoning. Why I do belive that The Bible is one of the greatest Fantasy novels ever written, that does not mean it is all just a fantasy. The locations, even the people, may and in slot of cases are very real. Just knowing how man operates, it is hard for me to not recognize the very real possibility that these stories might have been exaggerated as they were passed on, generation to generation.

      2. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have.  But the foolish thing would be to immediately conclude that Goddunit.




        Could you accept the fact that you and I just don't know the answer to that question yet.  Stop implying that an imaginary being is responsible for the things we do not yet understand.



        Still looking for more "proof" to support your narrow conclusions, instead of opening your mind to the posssibilties. 



        To a deluded mind, imaginary beings certainly make more sense than reality.

        BTW, atheism is not anything that I believe in.  It is simply the denying of your foolish claims that your imaginary God exists.

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why are you on the defence ?

          Thing is I already know why I believe the way I do ( most of the time)...

          I dont need to skirt around the topic. My questions were not unreasonable.


          I just have always wondered if people didnt accept what I did ,then maybe ,just maybe they have another theory/thought ,insert here whatever word feels right...

          And I will not resort to childish immature babble to try and sound intelligent wink

      3. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "Have you ever questioned why you have emotions ,like love,sadness,pain,joy,etc?

        Where did they come from ?

        The power to reason etc. The minds process in making a decision for example."

        Emotions and the like are a byproduct of evolution, without fear our species would have been killed off before we even had a chance to procreate. Without pleasure we would have no desire to live. Without pain life would be numb and we would lose our minds, becoming separated from reality. Without joy we would have no reason to seek out others like us to share life with. All emotions are products of necessary for our survival.

        A incredible man, John Bonner, has studies slime molds for piratically his entire life. The amazing thing about slime mold is you can practically watch evolution happen right before your eyes.

        In a nut shell, slime mold starts out a a single celled amoeba. When food is abundant they group up, mate and form a kinda civilization of cells. When food goes scarce the cells and the overall organism at this stage under goes a mutation. Certain cells under go a process known as "programmed suicide" and the rest form themselves on top of the dead cells, effectively creating a type of stalk to raise the living cells off the ground. Once conditions improve the "spore" at the top of the stalk then ruptures and spreads these single cells back out over the area.

        You can watch this process here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvRxoiiG … re=related

        And read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slime_mold

        "Who wired you so intricately  who designed the bodies auto immune system?"

        You are presenting a theory of "Design" when it is inherently obvious we were not designed. If we were as you say, then why do we have tonsils, wisdom teeth, tail bones, male nipples, the appendix and the gall bladder?

        The immune system is a direct result of evolution, at itself has its flaws... When you get sick you body doesnt just make one type of white blood cell to destroy the virus/bacteria in your body... it makes millions. It even makes white blood cells that will attack perfectly healthy cells. Then these self destructive cells are killed off through "programmed suicide". AIDS itself is a failure of these cells to properly kill themselves.

        If we were deigned.. the designer wasn't very good at what he did.

        "I think it takes more faith to believe in Atheism that it takes to believe in Jesus Christ..."

        Thomas Edison once said, "I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... I am an aggregate of cells, as, for instance, New York City is an aggregate of individuals. Will New York City go to heaven? .... No; nature made us--nature did it all--not the gods of the religions.”

        I suggest watching the documentary "Death By Design". You can find it on NetFlix. Tho you might find this as support for your design argument it will open your eyes to how crazy Life itself is. The entire design argument falls apart when you understand that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. That is plenty of time for life to develop by random chance. It has even met failures at every stage. God was never a thought until man started asking "why?", he was just an easy explanation... but now we know WHY the earth shakes and WHY the sun is eclipsed on occasion. We don't need a god to fill in the blanks anymore. :-D

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with every word of this, Not surprising really, the information is available for study on the internet these days, and in many fine lectures and documentaries. An open mind will soon have a basic understanding from them.

          The human body, even the brain still have remnants of our evolution that are ancient.

          The primitive mechanism of the "lizard brain" may be one explanation for religious "faith" and belief.

          A response to the unconscious but deep fear of death is one theory.

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hey thanks for taking the time to explain why you think the way you do and for providing some relevant links..smile

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I do my best. :-P it makes me think about my own beliefs as well, so to me it is a win-win situation. :-D

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I respect your views( might not agree with them all) 

              A BIG welcome to Hubpages.

              Buckle up and enjoy the forums. Can sometimes be quite the rollercoaster ride ,but something tells me you'll cope very well wink

              1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks for your welcome. :-D

                I appreciate the respect as well, but, if you don;t mind, I would like to know what parts you don't agree with. Not for debate but for further discussion (assuming we can keep some other peoples nose out of it :-P).

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Well I havent seen the movie yet you described in this part of your post,but I am wondering why you think the earth is as old a it is?

                  (djoutsider)
                  I suggest watching the documentary "Death By Design". You can find it on NetFlix. Tho you might find this as support for your design argument it will open your eyes to how crazy Life itself is. The entire design argument falls apart when you understand that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. That is plenty of time for life to develop by random chance. It has even met failures at every stage. God was never a thought until man started asking "why?", he was just an easy explanation... but now we know WHY the earth shakes and WHY the sun is eclipsed on occasion. We don't need a god to fill in the blanks anymore. :-D

                  (eaglekiwi)
                  Or now we have come of an age (technically speaking) where we can understand creation better...for instance even 30 yrs ago who would have understood cell-phones and Ipods..

                  I read (few years ago now) a series of booklets on why the Earth is much younger than some scientists say it is,you have inspired me to search them out again.

                  You have raised some neat stuff to discuss though and I do believe that the whole earth ,including mankind evolves and adapts accordingingly. I do not believe man evolved from primates however, no matter how many tailbones we may have.

                  For instance all nations can trace back ancestors to the 12 tribes of Judah..darker-skinned-Africa ,fair-skinned-Nordic lands etc.

                  1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                    djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    :-D The whole monkey thing is a bit of a jump... and honestly, I don't fully agree with that either. However, following the train of thought that you set forth, all nations being traced back to the 12 tribes of Judah, would it not make sense for the 12 tribes to trace further back to a point of origin?

                    Sure, that point could be Moses, or Adam... but people that misunderstand evolution thing that man literally came out as we are from between the legs of a spider monkey. That just isn't so. :-P If I were to just speak boldly with assumptions involved, I like to think Humans evolved from something similar to primates. In order for us to have made such an extreme jump in evolution we had to have been victims of very different circumstances for us to have evolved in a way so disproportionate to practically all other species. The root of that being, I would assume, is a difference in how our brains evolved, not so much our external features.

                    I am not very well schooled on all that stuff, but I am sure more answers will be revealed as time goes on. Genetics is still a very young field.

                    Even modern science recognizes that human civilization started somewhere in the region of the Middle East, aka Mesopotamia.

                    If you can locate the booklet about the young earth theory, I would like to read it over.. or even if you cant find it in particular, something close will work. :-D I have never actually looked into that theory.

                    Even to that level, I am not a geologist.. so the chances of me being able to rightly comprehend to the fullest extent of it all and the reiterating it back to you is very slim. I will dig around and see what I can come up with as well to help explain my understanding of the age of the earth and so forth. :-P This will be a fun learning experience. I am excited.

                    One thing that keeps me trusting of modern science is that being proven wrong is something scientist enjoy.. and in many cases enjoy more than being proven right. That doesn't mean they don't get frustrated tho. :-P Even when they are presumably right, there are thousands more scientist out there that want to prove them wrong.. but when something cant be proven wrong, it is accepted as truth, that is, until something else is learned that can either further prove the theory or further solidify it.

                    The Young Earth Theory may not be fully discounted yet, and for good reason... but I can't rightly speak for/against it at this time.

  24. 0
    jomineposted 5 years ago

    MelissaBarrett wrote:
    "Human beings are animals.  Maternal instinct in almost any other species would have lead to a severed jugular. That's the side of nature that has nothing to do with trees or pretty streams"

    I don't think you watch national geographic or animal planet. The severed jugular occurs only if the offender is weak!!

  25. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Socrates was a lesbian and a cross dresser much like my good self. smile

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Which explains his philosophical greatness, I'm sure! smile

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol lol
        You are sharp, on the mark and funny.

        I on the other hand am sleep deprived and was not sure my humour was gonna make the leap over the pond. smile

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why thank you, sir!  Translating quite well, I promise - despite the distance and sleep deprivation.  big_smile

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you. We will never get this argument going at this rate! lol

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I know.  I'm too much of a pacifist to argue anymore.  lol

              1. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Can one ever be too much of a pacifist? smile

                I believe in peace despite the evidence in the world to the contrary.

                1. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Me too.  And, I believe in love, love, love - despite the apparent lack of it.  Honestly, I don't believe one can be too much of a pacifist.  Peace and love seem a wonderful combination to me.  smile

                  1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                    Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You are either with me, or you are against me.

                    How loving is that? Get with it. I will burn you for not believing.

  26. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    MelissaBarrett wrote:
    If you are saying that a rock is a rock and doesn't contradict itself by being a rock then I agree fully, I guess,

    jomine wrote:
    There you are.

    You win.  There is no way I can argue with "a rock is a rock".

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sure you can, Melissa.  Just say that a rock is a fish.  It's about as solid an argument as most folks will put forth.  You can't agree without being considered disagreeable.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  Of course a rock is a rock, but if it wasn't a rock it would definitely be an ostrich.  I thought everyone knew that.  Science has proven it and God says it is.  If you disagree with me you must be stupid.

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think you need to check your facts.  A rock can only be a fish because everyone knows that ostriches evolved from seahorses.  Just because God said it doesn't make it true!  Haven't you followed the developments of physics for the last sixteen minutes?  Please speak to me when you've studied the Bible for your whole life and rejected it! 

          Until then, you have no authority.

          smile

          No wonder your rocks cause so many wars.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Rocks don't start wars, people who believe in rocks start wars...

            More importantly, those people who believe in really big limestone  rocks are the worst.  I agree they should believe in rocks, but limestone?  WTH is wrong with them?

            And who are you to tell me that ostriches evolved from seahorses, scientists in Obumitica recently proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Fllumpic race from the Suptruept galaxy beamed them in their exact form to the earth a bizzillion and 12 years ago to the day.

            God says "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".  Stones are rocks, therefore if you believe in them you are going to burn in brimston....oh shit.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Clearly, you believe in rocks!  You very words in the OP indicate that you want to start conflict.  Sad.



              Of course, you're the only one who believes in the right rocks.  Little wonder there are so many wars.



              Everyone knows that the Suptruept galaxy doesn't have intelligent life.  But, then it's no wonder that you would believe their religious tripe, instead of reality.  The Fllumpic race is nothing but a race of invisible magical super beings.  Of course, a believer in the Ostrich would hold them up as being real.  lol



              I don't have to do what your God says.  After all, everyone knows a rock is a fish.

          2. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I just had to break up a fight between two rocks in the garden!

            Well, they looked like rocks.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              earnest, the rocks are the worst.  If we could all stay away from them, and simply worship the fish, we'd all be SO much better off.

              lol

  27. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
    Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0

    There's never been a more accurate description of who IS NOT a Christian than what you'll see here.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      In all seriousness, that might possibly be the most accurate description of my personal views EVER.  He says, with far more clarity than I have, exactly what my problem is with Conservative Christianity. 

      Now, can you find a video that addresses my problem with militant non-believers that label me as stupid because I believe differently than them?  And I guess I need one about rocks too.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        Truce!  You're so much fun, Melissa!  Thanks for being such a good sport. 

        smile

      2. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
        Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Most of my friends are militant non believers.  I'm not sure why those people talk to me.  I suppose that I'm the only person who can not be insulted by them, and continually challenge them.  I can't find any other answer.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image61
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How do you challenge them exactly? lol

          1. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
            Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well, I'm strongly opinionated - but my beliefs are mostly set in stone.

            I don't find any incongruence with Biblical allegory and modern science; I'm sure that that helps.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image61
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How does the fact that you believe nonsense challenge them exactly? Most of us understand why you do it.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Holy Crap!  First Rockfish and now I find out that omnipotence comes with non-religion?

                Hey Mo! No problem, I don't take all of this stuff all that seriously.  If you can't laugh at yourself and your beliefs then you probably aren't all that comfortable with either smile

                1. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Amen, sister!  Or, right on for the less religiously inclined.  smile

              2. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
                Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The same way that the fact that you believe in nonsense does.  I know exactly why you try to believe that stuff, you are prideful man, and a rebellious little boy.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  How odd. Typical reply from a religionist I suppose. What nonsense is it that I believe exactly? So - you do not challenge them at all in fact. Prideful and rebellious? What am I rebelling against exactly? Religious garbage? Not really the correct word. I think the word you are looking for is "reject." And how does understanding science make me prideful?

                  You did not answer my question either. Nor do I see how me believing scientific facts challenges you in any way.

                  So - how do you "challenge," your non believer friends?

            2. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I hear that often from believers, yet when questioned further, they know very little if nothing about modern science. It's then quite the easy claim to make. smile

  28. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    @nightworks

    The word of God are like 'Gods love letter to his children' and if we were born with a 'How to Manual" the 10 Commandments would have been a pretty good start to 'right living'..

    No adultery -no sleeping around

    less sexually related diseases,unwanted pregnancies.

    No Murder-less grief, no overflowing prisons.

    Do not covert ,less jealousy ,no ambition to have 'things', no greed to achieve ,own and control.


    Do not lie.....the benefits are greater than you think..


    Science ,logic backs up the 10 Commandments 100% with cause and effect...with simple common sense.

  29. Tim Blackstone profile image61
    Tim Blackstoneposted 5 years ago

    Why would I think my beliefs are better than your beliefs?
    They are beliefs.  The word says that these are ideas based on no evidence, they are simply beliefs.
    What I believe and what you believe are both right, or perhaps both wrong, and neither of us can prove the other is right or wrong.
    Belief in the person standing next to you or in some sirit person or thing floating in the univesrse of belief in nothing at all, are all just feelings and so long as I don't force my ideas on you or anybody else and nobody else tries to convince me that their idea is somehow more valid than mine then the world can be filled with peace and love.
    Unfortunately there are far too many people who believe that because they hold a view then everyone else should agree with them when they have no evidence other than the fact they believe.
    What I believe is irrellevent to you as is what you believe irrellevent to me but I respect your opinion and I would defend your right to it and so long as it does not affect me then I am very happy for you.

  30. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    I love to talk about my faith. No secret there. I try not to quote Paul said this ,or John said that..I speak from an individuals (me) point of view.

    You have an opportunity to talk about 'your thoughts'. Not someones elses....but yours......

    Instead you damce around and blurt rah rah rah ..

    Just say it ,without ridicule.

    I know pretend your in college and have to write a paper..

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ...and MORE of the type of behavior that ensues once the foundations of someone's irrational beliefs have been shattered.

      Typical! Irrelevant!

  31. mikeb72 profile image60
    mikeb72posted 5 years ago

    I agree, religion must be defended because it is wrong and usually in conflict with God. but it is the human nature that causes this, not God who gave us the free will to choose.
    When your faith is attacked it makes you stronger because it reminds you of what made your faith strong in the first place, thus you see the contradiction between the responses of the religous and the faithfull, and the judgment of others like your words, 'typical' and 'irrelevant' are also evidence of your religous thinking and perspective. Religion is contrary to God, it judges, God loves and gives grace and forgiveness,understanding and peace. (The evidence of this is his son Jesus but you can't percieve this unless you know him contrasted to knowing of him)
    Please don't mispercieve this but I hope you find this so you won't be so critical in your self analisis and the resulting judgment of others. I can only speak from my experience, I was religous for 30 years then something changed and now I know love. You might consider the commonality of the testimonies with the word 'changed' and realize that there are many who have experienced something you might not have and pursue what exactly it is your missing. Peace

  32. Paradise7 profile image87
    Paradise7posted 5 years ago

    This is great!!  We can (if we try to) isolate all the religious back-and-forth in one little thread.  We don't have to get the rousing revival preachers to go way off the topic on secular threads.  AWESOME!

    Me, I'm a believer.  I don't know why--can't explain it, can't justify it to any atheist going.  I just believe in Jesus.  I believe in God.  It doesn't hurt me, as far as I can tell.

    It might not be rational but I sure wanted to be baptized, married and buried in a church.

    In the meantime, one of my very firm principles in life is to live and let live; to try very hard NOT to attempt shoving my beliefs down anyone's throat.  No one likes that; it doesn't help at all.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      She sez shoving its beliefs. lol

      U kint splain it - it just iz innit. Live n let live - cept fer burnin coz them int beleebin. lol

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        A perfect example of why I told you 'Stop this childish crap". Go back to playing WoW please. :-D

  33. Paradise7 profile image87
    Paradise7posted 5 years ago

    WHAT? Check your keyboard, I think the petite lap giraffe got loose on it.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      LOLOLOL Zat wot god sed? lol

      1. Paradise7 profile image87
        Paradise7posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Honey, have another drink.  Take another hit offa that doobie.  You need it.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image61
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Zat wot god sed innit?

          No wonder ur religion  is so hated. LOL

          Dear me. sad

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            oh, and another one....

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Love yer sense of humour -too funny lol  lol

      2. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        another example...

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol  lol

  34. djoutsider711 profile image60
    djoutsider711posted 5 years ago

    I must say, I am ashamed at how my fellow Atheist are behaving... this goes out to them: If you can't answer the question, DON'T TRY TO! Atheism is built on reason and the lot of you are using anything but reason in your arguments. For us, not knowing the answer is a GOOD thing. It spurs us forward to want to find out. Arguing semantics and the like are a sure fire way to ensure that NO ONE will listen to you... not even other atheist.

    Dear theist, I personally don't care what you believe so long as it doesn't hold back humanity from moving forward and advancing ourselves or gaining deeper understanding of the world we live in. "Live and let live", that is my motto... However, if you think you are persecuted on a regular basis for your beliefs, try being an atheist for a few days. :-P We get alot of flak. :-P

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting, djoutsider.  You're so reasonable.  I'm sorry, but you'll have to take your rational, reasonable thought processes elsewhere.  We don't respond well to those in the religious forums.  wink tongue big_smile

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Occasionally I catch a good ear and it makes it worth it. :-P Even then, I cannot learn if I am not challenged. For me, listening to the arguments of a theist keeps me honest. lol I was raised in a very religious household, so I know how it is.. I don't wanna try and forget those times. I want to understand them. The conviction people have in their faith systems is amazing and it is proof of its value to some extent. it just isn't for me, that is all.

        It is kinda like how a parent seems to forget at times that they were 16 at one point in time as well. When that happens parents cant identify with their children as well as they should be able to. So, if I ever want to change a theist's mind, I am going to have to understand the mind of a theist... only way for me to do that is to recall my days as such and to understand the reasons for belief that theist have.

        Ultimately tho, arguing the existence of a god is a stale mate.... my focus is on the more pertinent issues, like morality without a god or the sheer immorality having a god can create in a man. Then, morality itself is a touchy subject. We have to keep in mind that we are not talking about a wheel, we are talking about ourselves on the deepest levels. We are all playing with fire at this point. ;-)

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well said.  I have come to understand something recently through discussion with an atheist on this very site.  Neither you, nor I, with your respective disbelief or my belief can disprove or prove the existence of God.  Therefore arguing the point is fruitless.  If either of us tries to sell the other our speculation as fact, we're foolish. 

          If we are being honest, we can simply discuss toward a place of agreement.  Since that isn't generally what happens, the coming to a place of understanding is what matters most. 

          Nice to meet someone who is of a similar mindset!

          smile

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            :-D Thank you. I just wanna be friends. lol Sounds cheesy but that is what we should all be focusing on.

            1. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Me too!  big_smile  And, frankly, I don't care how cheesy it sounds. 

              So, dj, nice to meet you.

    2. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It's not really a matter of answering questions like those posed from eaglewiki, they just fall on deaf ears, anyways. A complete waste of time.



      But, they do hold back humanity because they abhor humanity. We are nothing but worthless garbage to them, sinners in league with the devil, simply because we choose to think and they are indoctrinated to believe.

      Gaining an understanding of the world we live in is the furthest thing from their beliefs and they will do everything in their power to make sure we don't gain understanding. Instead, they'll lobby to stop teaching evolution in schools and teach creationism instead, and that's just for starters.

      smile

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There are times your posts appear to be so rational. Other times? You almost sound like the flip side of the coin. Just as radical as the far religious right. You do understand how far fetched your comments are?

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Please show me. smile

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Show you what? How paranoid that all sounded?



            That, for one. You make it sound like there are witch hunts going on as we type.



            Maybe there are the religious who turn a blind eye to knowledge, but that is the radical few. I've only seen about three people on this entire site arguing mumbo jumbo. I think that is a fair representation of what the ratio of their numbers would be in society. They are loud, but a very very  (and dying) minor voice. You make it sound like they are lurking behind every corner.



            Again. A very loud, but tiny, minority. It's never going to happen. We all know that. Don't we?

      2. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "Sooo.. why bother teaching students in the Bronx Shakespeare... they are just going to become drug dealers and prostitutes"

        Sorry, Beelsedad, that is how you sound in that post.

        Answers to questions fall of deaf ears when you yell and scream at them and call them mentally retarded. If you are not willing to put proper effort into something, don't bother at all. You make claims of people that you have no right to. Just by theist participating in this forum, it is showing an interest and a willingness to learn. The only bitterness and closed minded behavior I am seeing is from those of you claiming to be atheist.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I went to your profile, you fly your religious flag there.

          Your bias is explained well enough for me, thanks, most believers don't have a proper profile, so it was good to see you wrote something at least.

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Where do I fly a religious flag on my profile? I write about atheism and I try to explain it in a way people might be able to understand.

            In fact, my profile picture is a mash-up of the humanism symbol and the mathematical symbol for "naught" or "nothing", which is also used by atheist.

            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              There is very little info on the profile,  I read a hub as well that described your background.

              OK, I found it a bit me me and boring, you went on about your religious name, you sounded religious and I should have read it properly and at least one more hub as well before passing judgment.

              I have done that now, and offer my sincere apologies.

              I can usually pick religious people by their language, but in your case it seems what I am seeing is remnants of your background finding it's way in to what you wrote in the first hub I read.

              I see religion as dangerous to my life and the lives of those I love. smile

              1. Jerami profile image77
                Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have heard Klansmen saying those exact words.

                    Never really thought about this before ..? 

                    Them words you just said.   erase a word and fill in the blank ????     
                   That sounded like everybody else If YA would think about it.

              2. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                religious language is a beautiful language, and one people can identify with on many levels... just because i use it doesn't mean I am religious. However, to go by the definition of religion:

                –noun
                1.
                a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
                2.
                a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
                3.
                the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

                I am not too ashamed to say I may fall under that definition at times.

                For me Atheism is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe", "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons", and "the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs".

                I appreciate your apology, though I don't think it all to necessary. :-D

            2. Evolution Guy profile image61
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You are quite obviously using Christian expressions and mannerisms. Shame on you. You are really letting atheists down everywhere.

              Perhaps if you did some introspection you would see this.

              I  am extremely disappointed in your behavior and I think you need to change it to suit me. In fact - I suspect your goal is to show atheism in a bad light and you are actually a Christian pretending to be one.

              1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Mockery, nice... Now you are just amusing, EvoGuy... thanks for the eye roll. Take it up with me on my hub.

                you like to repeat the same things... how about you reply to the first time you mentioned me and "introspection'? Or do you not have a counter argument beyond the level and thinking capacity of a 16 year old?

        2. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Really? Are you saying students in the Bronx are refusing to learn because they've been indoctrinated to become drug dealers and prostitutes from their parents? Pretty bad example there.



          Why are you lying about that? Where did I yell and scream and call people mentally retarded. If you're going to post something, try not to lie about it.



          Really? Show me where I am bitter and closed minded, or are you just fabricating stories again? Why are you lying about this?

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "Really? Are you saying students in the Bronx are refusing to learn because they've been indoctrinated to become drug dealers and prostitutes from their parents? Pretty bad example there."

            Applause on your ability to twist words.

            What I am saying is that yes, the kids in the Bronx (speaking generally, only meant as an example) are indoctrinated by their friends, family and peers to be drug dealers and prostitutes. In many ways that is the only life they have know. So, by refusing to TRY (and I mean really try) and show them other alternatives, be patient with them and help them to learn from other people, other resources, you are only contributing to the "problem".

            If you are so sensitive about what I said, I am sorry.. I thought you would be more open minded. :-P By saying "Answers to questions fall of deaf ears when you yell and scream at them and call them mentally retarded" it was said in a general manner. I could have said "people" instead of "you" but I didn't want you to feel left out of the equitation. :-D

            It amuses me, as an atheist, to see where all the animosity towards atheism is coming from. Sure you have a bible-thumper come through every once in a while, but when I speak to them (note I said "speak", as in use my words gently, and attempt to identify with them on some level) I tend to get much more fruitful responses from them, whereas you get "deaf ears".

            So, I am trying to actually converse with a theist with a level of understanding that you seem to lack or have thrown to the wind because, through your valiant and noble attempts, you have failed.

            See, I understand that groups tend to have certain profiles applied to them because the overwhelming majority of the interactions outsiders have with people of the group in question tend to fall into that profile.

            The only way to prevent a certain profile from developing (especially a negative one) is to make sure the people in said group do not forget what the goal, mentality, belief, or non-belief is about. That job is left to those within that very group.

            See, now in my attempt to rightfully "chastise" you in the better interest of Atheism as a group (because, whether you like it or not, we are a group) has now made me an outcast in your eyes, accusing me of "fabricating stories", "lying", and so forth... No different than how Martin Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic church for disagreeing with their system.

            So, who is more like those you despise? Me, or yourself?

            Rightly so, I do owe you an apology. I have seen bitterness and close minded behavior from all parties involved, not just you Beelzdad... myself included. I still have much to learn and that is why I am here as well.

        3. getitrite profile image79
          getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You are not going to have any effect on these delusional believers by using the method you are implying.  It appears you have no REAL experience dealing with rigid delusional minds.

          Pretty soon they'll have you back in church!

          ...And then coming into a forum, and thinking that you are going to chastise the veteran debaters here, is completely absurd. 

          What a JOKE!

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Name calling?

            Try to disagree ,agreeably.

            It can be done wink

          2. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It will be interesting to see if your theory plays out, GetItRite.

            And is it wrong of me to "chastise" you veteran debaters (on a forum anyways) for doing something that isn't helping your case?

            You think any believer is going to listen to you when you label them as "delusional"?

            1. getitrite profile image79
              getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Ok. We'll see.

              1. Jerami profile image77
                Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You may see some day?   That is good.


                    Some of us already see.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  wink

                  1. Jerami profile image77
                    Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    ??????????


                       !!!!    Yep,     !    thanks,

              2. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I find it funny how these "veteran debaters" have refused to respond to my rebuttals and challenges. Please, leave Atheism to people who know what they are talking about and HOW to talk about it. :-D Thank you.

                1. getitrite profile image79
                  getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/gatsby6306/Smileys/thsmiley_zzrofl1.gif

                  1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                    Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Gawd these guys are funny aren't they? Rebuttals? lol lol

    3. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I like your thinking!

      See, you prove that one can be courteous and still hold true to their beliefs..

      To Your Best Life wink

    4. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Try being a liberal Christian... you get it from both sides.

    5. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So - you do care what they believe because you get a lot of flak for not believing the same nonsense.

      Pointing out that their beliefs are nonsense is being reasonable. Their beliefs are irrational and illogical nonsense. You only need one word top understand why they cling to them.

                          Fear

      Live forever in paradise after your rotten life is over? lol What a fantastic sales pitch. No responsibilities other than to repent your sins (or accept Jesus as Lord). Perfect getout. Which would be why most of them preach it and then go against exactly what they are preaching. wink  Love thy neighbor? lol Sure - as long as they agree with your nonsensical beliefs.

      Tell us about the 800 year old men again James. wink

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Evolution Guy, you are a shame to atheist. Shut your mouth and stop this childish crap. Though I cant disagree with everything you say, it is the WAY you say it that is infuriating.

        Science is about understanding, psychology itself is a science. It is ranting mad men like you that make it hard for earnest people like myself to have a productive conversation. You are being laughed out of this forum, and likely many more, even by those you might consider to be brothers.

        Whatever your problem is with god and the like is not a logical problem. You need to get back in touch with the true reasons for your beliefs, or non-beliefs.

        Do the rest of us free-thinkers a favor and read a few more books. It is obvious that you have a personal agenda/hatred towards the gods and or those that believe in them. You lash out like a child that thinks he was unfairly punished.

        We all know the arguments you are attempting to use, but you cant make fine pottery with a hammer. Nor can you even begin to make a difference with the attitude you have.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image61
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          lol Shut your mouth and stop this childish crap? lol How can I be a shame to atheist? lol Atheism is a lack of belief not a group of people like a religion. lol You have swallowed the theistic BS. You should be ashamed at how little you know yourself. sad

          All I am doing is what the religionists are asking ask me to do. They say they are behaving in the manner they wish to be treated, then they go around speaking in a manner that suggests they are superior.

          I have no issue what soever with a god. There is no god. I do have a problem with religionists running their mouths off telling me they have esoteric knowledge that I am too proud to admit exists and too rebellious and foolish to believe in. So - I return the favor as that is what they tell me they want.

          See how using logic brings me to this conclusion? As you do not seem to understand what the word means. wink

          1. djoutsider711 profile image60
            djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So, you find it more beneficial to stoop to their level? There is no logic in your statement, only ego and pride.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image61
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No - I am not "stooping to their level."  I am holding up a mirror for them to see in the hopes they may decide to change their behavior. Oddly - it works sometimes. You must have a reading comprehension problem as well. Or are being deliberately obtuse. I suppose you were very religious at some point and kept some of the traits.

              You will get over them eventually but - shouting at people and telling them you know better than they do what their motivations are and that they should change them to suit you is extremely Christian behavior. wink

              How poorly you understand yourself. Religion does that to ya. wink

              1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "shouting at people and telling them you know better than they do what their motivations are and that they should change them to suit you is extremely Christian behavior."

                Back at you buddy. See, the difference between you and I is I am yelling at a fellow atheist that is making a fool of himself and the overall mentality.

                You are just running around poking people in the eye hoping to get a reaction. Unfortunately I fell into that trap. For that I am ashamed. You have fun... I hope this forum is enough to feed your ego for some time.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  And once again you tell me you know better than I do what I am doing.

                  I am not a "fellow atheist". You have swallowed the garbage about atheism being  a sect of some kind.  I just don't believe a god exists and you happen to not either.

                  But lol lol that you cannot see you are behaving exactly the way you are accusing me of. You are still a Christian doing what Christians do. lol You are being silly if you are ashamed because of something I am doing,. That is your religion telling you what to think. And I am certainly not going to be shamed in to changing for you. That rubbish doesn't work on me. I know exactly what I am doing and why. You disagree with my methodology. That is all.

                  Try a little introspection.

                  1. djoutsider711 profile image60
                    djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    "I am not a "fellow atheist". You have swallowed the garbage about atheism being  a sect of some kind.  I just don't believe a god exists and you happen to not either. "

                    You know, there is this odd ability of humans to to this thing called "association". So, the next time I bump into a theist and tell them I am Atheist and they give me a dirty look, immediately throw up their guard and begin spouting their beliefs without the care to hear what i have to say.. I am going to give you full credit.

                    It is amazing what happens when you listen to people.. they tend to listen back. Sometimes it is hard to get a word in but if you just wait it out, a moment comes when they start to wonder what you think.

                    How is that for introspection?

  35. Alastar Packer profile image84
    Alastar Packerposted 5 years ago

    Beel, how can you get so much right yet on some things enclose yourself in an ice-block- not going to answer any replies this time . Happy 4th Beel!

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It is because he doesn't really know what he is talking about, he is a broken record just repeating what he saw on a YouTube video. Sorry you all have to experience atheism in this manner.

    2. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Happy 4th to you too!!

      I don't mind answering questions, but Eaglewiki has asked the same questions over and over and has received replies to them over and over, yet continues to deny or ignore those answers, and when she can't respond to a post, she resorts to asking the same questions again.

      It is obviously a ploy to detract away from answering questions herself.

      Do you really see a point to answering those same questions over and over again and falling prey to that ploy? smile

  36. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    BeezleDad

    It's not really a matter of answering questions like those posed from eaglewiki, they just fall on deaf ears, anyways. A complete waste of time.


    @ Beezledad -hmm...wink Not nice ,and its EAGLE K I W I baby ,Not Eaglewiki..or was that a subliminal message ?  hehe...

    1. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry, Eaglekiwi, for getting your name wrong.

      You know as well as I you ask those same questions over and over again simply as a ploy to detract from answering questions yourself. It isn't very nice of you to do that considering we answered your questions in earnest and sincerity only to find you have obviously ignored them.

      So, why should continue to answer the same questions over and over again to you? smile

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Sadly that is your perception of me.

        I am not a complicated person and I dont play head games.

        I have no need. I never have understood why you accuse me of such things.

        You have judged me harshly on several occasions simply because I didnt agree with you?

        And no ,you have not always answered my questions ,but I dodnt resort to infering your'e dishonest or evasive.

        I simply think you dont care to answer.


        If I ask a question and receive an answer ,even one I may not agree with ,I certainly DO NOT disrespect the person who dignified me by replying with hostile mockery.

        Not only is it immature ,but unnecessary.


        By the way I never assume that everyone thinks alike either ,so perhaps you think your answer (although that has been like pulling teeth) is complete in itself. It hasnt been, but I accept you think it was.

        Another thing ,education,status,race,creed,religion should have absolutely nothing to do with how people are treated.

        One love for all I say smile

  37. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    It's a simple belief really, if it's good ....... goddunnit, if it's bad ........ science or them darn heathens dunnit. smile

  38. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    When you have been on the religious forums as long as Mark has you may become the same.

    Mark used to provide sources from peer reviewed articles and scientific arguments that were never viewed or honestly refuted, but replied to with personal attacks, straight out lies and told he would rot in hell.

    I don't blame him for replying in a way that seeks no approval. smile
    I also agree that the kicked to bits stone aged myth is hardly a model to give our children of the future.

    It is nonsense!

  39. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    I think the biggest problem is everyone is taking what they have experienced with a person and applying it to people.  I.E. being stereotypical. 

    I don't like being called stupid/ignorant because I believe differently than another group.  Nor do I like being told that I am going to hell because I don't believe MORE differently.

    I don't understand why everyone is so threatened/angry about differing viewpoints. 

    Yes, I believe in God out of fear.  I fear that when I die, there will be nothing left.  I have faith that I will be reunited with those that I have lost.  It helps me get through the day.  I have no idea whatsoever why someone would want to take away that faith just to prove they are right. 

    On the other hand some members of believers of all religions want to do the same.  I don't know why they would want to take away the surety of logic and science.  To the non-believers that what keeps them going. 

    Discussions are great, it helps to broaden horizons, but bickering and "If you don't see it my way you are an idiot" is just hateful on both sides.

    To the zealots- Saying that the earth goes around the sun is not an insult to Christianity.  Learn the lessons that Galileo taught the catholic church centuries ago. The bible is great for answers for the soul, but it isn't the Encyclopedia Britannica.  God may be omnipotent, but we are not.

    To the non-religious- It is possible for someone to be both well-read and religious.  Stop insulting our intelligence.  I personally have two degrees and 126 I.Q.  I'm sure there are other Christians out there who make those accomplishments look like peanuts.  Saying all Christians are represented by a few examples is like comparing all doctors to snake-oil salesmen.

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Stereotyping is a problem. It is something I am rather frustrated about with some other non-believers on this forum.

      Sadly, steretyping is human nature. It is how we antisipate things and protect ourselves from experiences we do not wish to have again. If it is really an issue in the group you find yourself closest associated to, then it needs to be brought to the attention of the group.. hopefully some of it can be addressed and fixed.

      Any atheist that thinks a theist is an idiot is an idiot themselves. :-P Having a faith system does not determine or limit education as much as some atheist try to make out, but it can have a tendency to narrow ones perspective. I think that is the main issue some of the militant atheist have.

      As a good example:

      A woman at my workplace posted a collection of Cristian proverbs on the refrigerator. There were not versus from Proverbs itself, but they were one line saying that some might have mistaken to be wise. One in particular said "Don't put a question mark where God put a period."

      It took me several weeks to figure out why that made me so... angry. later I realized that it wasn't what it was saying, but what it was alluding to.

      "Don't ask questions, just do."

      "Don't seek knowledge, just go with it."

      "Don't ask questions about anything."

      That may be a large amount of exegesis but it still ate me up.

  40. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    I dont tell people they are going to hell,but if they ask I will tell them about Heaven.


    Personally what irritates me though is if Im commenting to another poster ,someone else who obviously wants to save them "from me" jumps in with a smart arse childish comment. By all mean add to the converation in an mature manner ,but seriously if you come in mocking or chanting silly ryhmes, provoking a response ,so you can then point a finger and say..oooooooh teacher look what so and so said-think again!

  41. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    getitrite wrote:
    You are not going to have any effect on these delusional believers by using the method you are implying.  It appears you have no REAL experience dealing with rigid delusional minds.

    Pretty soon they'll have you back in church!

    ...And then coming into a forum, and thinking that you are going to chastise the veteran debaters here, is completely absurd. 

    What a JOKE!
    ============  -------   =


      me


    veteran debaters  ... ???   Is that what you think you are ??

    What is your definition of a veteran debater?

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good question Jerami.

      Uh oh.. me an atheist siding with a  theist? A wormhole must be nearby. :-P

      That is only me being silly. I cannot say I am the most learned atheist out there, but I am learning. If any theist wishes to have an actual discussion about theism vs. atheism.. send me a message. I would love the chat.

    2. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This has nothing to do with the subject, Jerami.

      Try to stick with the subject. smile

      1. djoutsider711 profile image60
        djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You have never responded to the subject in question. Get it right, Getitrite.

  42. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    On a personal level,I cannot see the sense in the whole life cycle thing being so brief and final ,and my reasoning is ,if I think this ,if I query it ,then maybe ,just maybe Im meant to search for 'more purpose'...

    In the meantime life happens ,and I have looked at reasons and answers from both sides of the fence.

    I didnt always know Christ ,much less what was written in the bible...but curiousity and a growing dissatisfaction with 'self help' type advisors ,I checked out my spiritual side.

    First and foremost I grew up knowing we are basically made up of three parts...spiritual/emotional/physical.

    Im probably getting off track ,so will leave it there for now smile

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "On a personal level,I cannot see the sense in the whole life cycle thing being so brief and final ,and my reasoning is ,if I think this ,if I query it ,then maybe ,just maybe Im meant to search for 'more purpose'...

      In the meantime life happens ,and I have looked at reasons and answers from both sides of the fence."

      This is kinda something I hit on in my "Death: What Comes Next" hub.

      This is a hard one to discuss because I too would like more time with loved ones... but when I came to my own conclusion that this may very well be all I have... it was kinda an enlightening experience. I feel I explained my perspective on this very fluidly in my hub. I hope you take a minute to read it.

  43. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    http://creation.com/creation-magazine-articles

    Oh it seems current issues can not be clicked on (they want you to buy them) but if you search their archives ,same topics come up)

    My friend used to give me these magazines years ago ,and I didnt expect to be able to find them online -but here is the site.

    Liked reading the magazines better,old habits die hard lol.

    Im late replying because Ive been reading and burning dinner lol.

    I will write more soon ,just didnt want you to think my delay was denial wink

    Oh and going back past the 12 tribes ,um Im bit rusty ,but ok,Im listening.

    Later.

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No worries, I am patient. :-D It is alot of researching to do and I plan to take my time as well.

      *Edit* Found this article here.. http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

      Has a ton of "proofs" for a younger earth. Wish I knew what they were talking about 99% of the time. LOL

      I will need to see if I can't find some more user friendly documentation on the earths age. :-P

  44. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Eaglekiwi  On a personal level,I cannot see the sense in the whole life cycle thing being so brief and final ,and my reasoning is ,if I think this ,if I query it ,then maybe ,just maybe Im meant to search for 'more purpose'...
    ====  \\   ----

    me ..
    Love this! ;the way it sounded.  You are right "Just Maybe"   But some of us should ask ourselves  .....   MAYBE
    Our only purpose is to experience ..?. this ..                 while not messing with anyone elses experience.   

    In the meantime life happens ,and I have looked at reasons and answers from both sides of the fence.

    I didnt always know Christ ,much less what was written in the bible...but curiousity and a growing dissatisfaction with 'self help' type advisors ,I checked out my spiritual side.

    First and foremost I grew up knowing we are basically made up of three parts...spiritual/emotional/physical.

    Im probably getting off track ,so will leave it there for now

    ====   -----  ===  --

    Me
      again I love the way you expressed this   

      I'd like to add just this little bit.   
    Inteligence was born in the womb of spiritual?????????

  45. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image59
    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 5 years ago

    You are "doing" Melissa Barrett perfectly, you cannot mess it up. :)You cannot "damage" anyone, more than they already doing are so themselves. it is a serious illusion to think you can cause more pain than pleasure to anyone.

    when others do not like what you represent, you are expressing what they are repressing and have not seen what form THEY do that thing/event, and have not loved it in themselves and honored how it serves-everything provides service in some form.

    life itself is a constant state of contruction and destruction at our cellular level-as is the micros, so is the macros.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Can you explain your post?  The language was very confusing, and I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make.  Maybe I missed something?

      smile

      1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image59
        DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        if humanity started with 2 persons, who had 2,420 main personality traits, (infinite variations) then all humans have all traints, we express some, and repress others, (traits) the things we do not like in others, are actuallythe items we have not loved in ourselves, and seen how "that" item serves in our lives. it is a life process that may be a type of universal law. may, that is. smile

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      LMAO, I have been done well, but never perfectly.  I would assume that is an entirely different type of religious experience.

      1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image59
        DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        smile the fact that our earth is 93 million miles form the sun-5 million closer we burn-5 mil farther we freeze-earth axis 23.5 debree tilt gives atmosheric life support-rotation gives day/night balance-1/3 oxygen/nitrogen blend lets us breath-if i was 50/50 one lightning bolt and the whole earth would torch-all this precision of creation was designed, or created specifically for human life-i'd say you are perfect in the grand scheme of this Mel. that creative intelligence does not appear to make too many mistakes.

  46. peterxdunn profile image60
    peterxdunnposted 5 years ago

    Atheism is not a religion. This is a fact. It is not open to debate.

    The ten commandments were copied (paraphrased) directly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead (from the ceremony of Maat: the weighing of the heart against a feather).

    So, speaking as an atheist - I do not consider 'my religion' to be better than yours. I consider your mind: your capability for rational thinking, to be severely impaired by the acceptance of a prefabricated mindset first manufactured by the priest/kings of ancient Sumer: 6 thousand years ago.

    1. djoutsider711 profile image60
      djoutsider711posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As a fellow atheist I agree with the "Atheism is not a religion" statement, but then when I look at it from the theist perspective, I can see how it might be mistaken for one. I think I defined religion in one of me earlier post....


      Religion"

      –noun
      1.
      a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
      2.
      a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
      3.
      the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

      I am not too ashamed to say I may fall under that definition at times.

      For me Atheism is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe", "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons", and "the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs".

      In a round about way, it is a religion... we just dont like the taint the word gives. :-P

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You do realize that it was a Catholic priest that first presented the Big Bang theory?  A Lutheren established quantum mechanics...Then there was that whole pasteurization thing... And lets not forget the theory of gravity...

      I hate how christianity limits the ability for rational thinking wink

      If we are talking about my own personal mind being limited in rationality-- You are assuming two things 1. That my mind is limited in rationality and 2. That it is because I am Christian.

      You have insufficient information for either conclusion.

      1. Evolution Guy profile image61
        Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So three freethinking atheists who pretended to be Christians because they did not want to be shunned by their society vs billions of close minded irrational believers demonstrates what exactly.

        A belief in a god is not a rational thing. It is faith based. Not reason based. You are necessarily limiting your thinking because you already know there is a god. Exactly what version you believe will depend on how limited your thinking actually is - but it certainly is not rational.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Once again, you are making assumptions that aren't in fact.

          You are assuming that all scientists who believe in God are doing it to avoid public condemnation.  There are several through out history that formed theories that were contrary to church opinion and published them anyway.  By your theory, all christian scientists are cowards.  As they are developing extremely controversial theories and publishing their results that would not seem to be the case.

          As far as belief in God being a rational thing, I point you to both James' Will to believe and Pascals wager.  Both are extremely pragmatic and rational reasons to believe in God. 

          Your arguments about reasonable thinking are inherently fallible, if one single person who believes in God show an ability for rational thinking then the A=B argument is void.  Sweeping generalizations are the most dangerous theories to subscribe to, their inherent weakness leads to the need to defend them too vehemently--Sometimes to the point of irrationality.

          1. Evolution Guy profile image61
            Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I am making no such assumptions. Please stop telling me incorrectly what I am doing. I pointed out that the scientists you mentioned were unlikely to admit to atheism for a number of reasons. I personally know several Catholic priests who are atheists but would never leave the gravy train they are on.

            Pascals wager is not a rational or reasonable argument. It is a fallacy.

            My argument is not void. You are simply discarding it because you are defending an irrational belief and behaving irrationally. This is my main argument with your religion.

            Many otherwise rational people hold irrational beliefs. Because they hold the rational belief that they will die from falling to the ground if the jump out of a ten story window, it does not follow that all the decision they make are rational. This is an illogical claim. I know perfectly rational people who start talking nonsense and defending their religion and fighting and arguing with people who think it is nonsense.

            You are the one making assumptions and behaving irrationally. Believing there is a christian god some where is a wholly irrational belief. Choosing to believe it because it makes you feel better or your society demands it or you are scared it might be true are perfectly rational things to do. That does not make the belief itself rational. Make sense?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, philosophically and by using scientific rational your specific argument is falliable.

              "A belief in a god is not a rational thing. It is faith based. Not reason based. You are necessarily limiting your thinking because you already know there is a god. Exactly what version you believe will depend on how limited your thinking actually is - but it certainly is not rational."

              A. Belief in God limits thinking
              B. Christians believe in God
              C. All Christians have limited thinking.

              Right from the start, determining A is completely impossible.  You have not met ever Christian nor have you studied the thinking of every christian. Its the fallacy of sweeping generalization.

              B. Is a definition that lacks logic and scientific comparison.  B=B is a non-issue. 

              C. the conclusion reached is based on faulty logic.

              But please, feel free to give some backing for your theory.  Just saying "It is because I say it is" is no better than "God exists because I say he does" 

              "I pointed out that the scientists you mentioned were unlikely to admit to atheism for a number of reasons. I personally know several Catholic priests who are atheists but would never leave the gravy train they are on."

              Unlikely is quite a bit different from surety.  My assertion is that they were practicing Christians and scientists.  They're reasons are irrelevant.  I will point out though, at the time of discussion of the Big Bang Theory, the scientific community was LESS accepting of religion than religion was of science so it would have been more logical for a scientists to denounce religion if he wanted to be taken seriously.  1950's really was that long ago. 

              As far as your friends the priests, their personal issues are irrelevent to the discussion.  If Christian Anecdotal evidence has no weight than neither does non-belief.  If we are accepting anecdotal evidence, though, then we must agree that both sides are equally valid.

              I am not discarding anything.  I am asking for a reasonable conversation on 1. your definition of irrational 2. why that standard should be applied to all Christians. I would also care to hear your own personal rebuttal against Pascal's wager.  Saying it is a fallacy without backing is a non-argument.

              I do however, agree that there are different levels of rationality and irrationality.  If you were to say for instance that "some christians behave irrationally" I would be right behind you.  If you were to say "The belief in God limits the thinking of some individuals" I would also agree.

              Of course, those statements can be applied to any strong belief in anything.  Even scientists arguing over two opposing theories.

              1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Gosh - that is an awful lot of sweeping generalizations all in one go. It would also appear you have a reading issue because a lot of the things you claim I said - I did not.

                But - one thing at a time. Lets deal with teh irrational belief you have that there is a god. You are claiming it to be rational, but have simply attacked my statement that it is not rational.

                Lets deal with Pascal's wager as this is one of your claims that show it is rational.

                1. Pascal's wager misses one crucial point - the nub of the argument is that he chose to believe - in case the Christian god who burns non-believers exists.

                Assuming for a moment that we accept the possibility of a god existing (which is logically impossible). There is an infinite number of possible gods. Your chances of choosing the correct one are infinity:one. Therefore the Cristian nasty, burn-you-for-all-eternity-for-not-believing god is infinitely improbable. God could as easily punish believers for believing nonsense with no basis in fact. That is what I would do if I was god - so Pascal could well be burning as we speak. wink

                2. This wager does not make a rational argument for the existence of this murderous psychopath. It makes an argument for choosing to believe in it just in case.

                While choosing to believe in it - just in case - may be a rational decision, the belief itself has no rational basis. This is simply fear.

                And you are now saying that the bible does not call for faith? It does not say that you need to have faith - not reason? I am confused.

      2. recommend1 profile image71
        recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        and you are a woman of course . . . . . . . . . .

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, of course that goes without saying.

  47. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    I think there is a difference in our purposes here.

    My intention is not to prove or disprove the existance of God.  My intention is to discuss the rationality of those who do, myself included.

    Pascal argued that to believe did no harm while non belief in a god could lead to punishment in the afterlife.  He further argued that even if you were wrong, you've lost nothing.  If there is no afterlife, then it's lack exists for both believers and believers while heaven only existed for believers.

    Even accepting your argument and the existence of infinite Gods, the possibility of the Christian God being the right one still exists.  Even if the possibility is small, it is still more than no chance. 

    Therefore, the choice to believe is, at its least, not completely irrational. 

    on a side note: "Just in case" is an incredibly rational argument. Hence Life, Car, and Home insurance.  The purchase of all of those is also motivated by fear.

    And yes the bible calls for faith.  Faith is awesome.  But faith doesn't preclude rationality nor, obviously, does rationality preclude faith.

    I was not intending to make generalizations, I was breaking down the argument piece by piece. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then I apologize.

    I took no real objection to being told that my thinking was limited, because I'm very well aware that I am not omnipotent.  I do not agree, however, that my thinking is limited by a belief in God.  (But that could possibly be my limited thinking kicking in again)

    I honestly believe that your arguement is flawed.  But, as I have said before, I am inherently sceptacle of argurments brought on by induction.

    A completely non-related example

    1.  The sun has risen every day in recorded history
    2.  The sun is likely to rise tomorrow.

    The argument seems completely logical and additionally is emotionally correct.

    The sun will not always rise, however.  It is a star an held to the same constraints as every other star.  It will eventually die. 

    Now here the kicker (which I'm sure you already know)
    The chance of the sun rising tomorrow is statistically identical to what ever day that the sun does not rise.

    In short very very few things will ALWAYS occur.  So unless you eliminate every single christian who has lived, lives now, or ever will live then the idea of none existing that have not had their thinking limited by religion remains fallible.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Ah - so lying is OK then? LOLOL

      Dint u red wot Pascal sed? LOLOLOLOL

      This is why ur religion causes so many Konflikts.

      Your beliefs are completely irrational. LOLOLOLO As you have just demonstrated.

      I accept that you choose to believe nonsense because it makes you feel better. Wonderful. Thanks for not responding to any thing i Sed.

      This is why your religion has caused 2,000 years of wars.


      ciao

      Faith is awesome. And infinity:one is awesome as well. lol

      Good for you. LOLOLLOLOLOLOLO


      Nothing rational here and thanks for proving my point. U R not here for a discussion innit.

      I suggest a decent dictionary in future as you do not seem capable of rational discussion.

      lol lol

    2. 1blade profile image61
      1bladeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I cannot prove or disprove it. No one can.  Whether God is a being or an idea, it is obvious that it is powerful enough to have not been forgotten in time. Churches still exist. There is no telling why really, everyone just accepts it. Yeah in the past the Church controlled a lot of government and dictated who was going to be king over a nation, so maybe that plays into its upkeep but it has not been that way for hundreds of years.  What I am saying is that it just seems like a collective that seems to keep going for some strange and wild reason unknown.

  48. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Actually, I think I did respond to what you asked.  If you disagree, than that is your right.

    If you can't defend your own position and must result to insults, then by all means smile

    Such is the curse of the quasi-intellectual smile

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Awww - how Kristian of you. lol Little wonder you cause so many wars.

      Like wot Jebus sed to do.

      lol

      Your religion always comes to this. sad

  49. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    I'll accept that as "Yes, you met me on scientific grounds and bested me... therefore I have no grounds to fall back on... Gee I wish I had faith in something..."  Bye now!

    1. Evolution Guy profile image61
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Ah. Not looking for a discussion then? Just wanted a fight like it says to do in the bible.

      Excellent job in ignoring every point I made. Must be very frustrating to have actual points made that you have to ignore. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.

      Bye. sad

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, I'll bite the hook... just this once though.

        If you had points that I failed to address, please point them out and I will do my best.  If I missed them, it wasn't out of any type of avoidance.

        I am pretty sure, however, that

        " Ah - so lying is OK then? LOLOL

        Dint u red wot Pascal sed? LOLOLOLOL

        This is why ur religion causes so many Konflikts.

        Your beliefs are completely irrational. LOLOLOLO As you have just demonstrated.

        I accept that you choose to believe nonsense because it makes you feel better. Wonderful. Thanks for not responding to any thing i Sed.

        This is why your religion has caused 2,000 years of wars."

        was supposed to be an insult to my intelligence, returned in kind.  If you would like to discuss, feel free.  If you wish to insult- I have an ex-husband that I would rather fight with.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image61
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Awwwwww. So - ignoring the points I made in order to defend your beliefs  is OK and it is my fault now. lol

          Lets get back to the infinite number of gods. lol#]

          How many possible gods are there?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I have no idea.  My guess would be as many as the people that believe in them.  This could conceivably include intelligent life on other planets.  So, while not an infinite number... a really really big one.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image61
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So - you agree then? The chances that Pascal chose the correct god are infinitely small. Which makes this an irrational choice. Is that correct? You agree on this point?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I do agree that the chances of Pascal or anyone else choosing the right God, if any, are infinitely small. 

                My rebuttal is:  Small isn't zero.  Not choosing a God would be a zero chance. Choosing something over nothing is not irrational.

                1. recommend1 profile image71
                  recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I believe it is irrational - when there are many far more productive 'ways' to choose from that benefit a person in the same way as following an infinitely slim chance of a god, but without the downside.

                2. Evolution Guy profile image61
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  So - how is choosing something that is infinitely improbably a rational decision? You agree that your chances are infinitely small, yet limit your thinking to one single infinitely improbable deity.

                  How is this rational?

                  Perhaps not choosing a god is what god wants and god will burn believers for believing with faith and fighting for Jesus. See how you are being irrational? This is just as likely as Pascal's chosen deity.

                  Choosing nothing is a 50/50 bet and I am open to a deity making itself known to me.  There either is or is not a deity. In fact - there may be many. Choosing from infinity:one is a far bigger bet. See how this is rational thinking and reasoning and jumping on the one Pascal chose is completely irrational?

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Choosing something improbable is irrational unless confronted, as in pascals wager, with an alternative of nothing.

                    Within the confines of pascals wager, the two choices are afterlife or nothing.  Within those confines, the logical choice would be a possibility of something rather than the assurance of nothing.

                    Spreading out, the choice of Christianity over another religion -with the exact same chances of being correct- then becomes a matter of personal choice.

                    Addressing the limiting to one deity: -still within the confines of Pascal- adherence to the rules of the chosen deity is necessary to achieve that deity's conditions for afterlife.   

                    Addressing the limiting to one deity outside of Pascal's razor- One chooses the contract that is the best fit for them.  It is not irrational to choose a single deity that best fits your needs rather than a pantheon that is unbearable.

  50. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
    schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago

    Hi Melissa,
    I saw the other thread I think unless there was more than one.
    Whew! I couldn't believe that thread.

    I think your OP was very clear that you are OK with everyone, and that to me can forsee no arguments! But you still got plenty!! How crazy!

    Your question: why is my religion better than yours?
    My answer: I believe we all have to accept Christ to be saved.
    But does it bother me that your OP stated your own belief system?
    No. It's not my job to tell everybody what to do or make unnecessary arguements, a belief I believe you follow as well.
    There is no possibility in the R&B forum to say something without getting attacked -that is if your Christian or not atheist- in my observation.

    I think you had a brilliant idea in this thread but as usual, it seems everyone has to argue their point.
    I don't care really what anyone does. Live and let live.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There was another thread, ironically enough started by a christian that was pretty much indecipherable and, I believe, quoted the KJV in entirety.  I get it from both sides... I'm not christian enough to go to heaven but I'm too christian to be intelligent.

      Honestly, I think the bashing goes both ways pretty symmetrically here. Either someone is going to hell or they are so stupid that someone must be assisting in the typing.  Both sides are trying to convert each other. 

      I'm a UU because I like to argue.  The only formalized group that I found I can have a meaningful discourse, with no expectation for either side to change their views are the wiccans and, surprisingly, the Hindus.  I haven't met many Hindus though, so it might be luck of the draw smile

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
        schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I definitely believe both sides are trying to convert one another because
        "they" spend countless hours argueing
        or is it possible "they" love to argue debate and demoralize other human beings? That makes no sense to me. To me it's a waste of time.

        For innocent questions and discussions leading to learning...that makes sense on both sides.

        That's where either side can volunteer info.

        But for either side to be harranging the other side is just to me a) a waste of time b) immature c)many other reasons.

        smile

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Those who argue for the benefit of arguing is just talking to hear themselves talk.

          Those who argue for change is a different story altogether.
          Making the world peaceful isn't a waste of time.

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
            schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't see how making people feel bad is making the world peaceful.

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Good point wink

            2. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Making someone feel bad? Apparently they have bigger issues than hurt feelings. lol

              1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
                schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                What is that supposed to mean? Now you're openly insulting me!

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It means exactly what it said. If someone is hurt by what someone said, then they have bigger issues with themselves than what they just heard said.
                  If I was insulting you, then you would know it. I responded to your post, but my post was generalized, because it should be generalized. It is how it applies.

                  If you found what I said insulting? Then maybe you should evaluate yourself better and grow thicker skin. I have no inclination to be politically correct, as I wrote a hub on it, which tells the reader, how damaging it is to society, as a whole.

                  People can say whatever they like to me and I will not get insulted, because I grew up with the knowledge of "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me".

                  Say what you want and you will NEVER be able to offend me or hurt me in any manner. If anyone takes words to heart or is offended by them, then they have bigger issues. It is a fact.

              2. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
                schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Why can't you "live and let live", if somebody like me, is happy to follow Jesus , who you don't believe in, and I'm using his guidelines to try and be a more patient, loving, forgiving, person, which makes me a better person, why must you insult, and demean me because you don't like the fact that I believe in Jesus and you don't?

                1. Evolution Guy profile image61
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  But you are not demonstrably more "patient and loving," than anyone else. Christian "love," tends to be the tough, I-know-what-is-best-for-you sort of love that gets people's backs up. How come you don't you keep your irrational beliefs to yourself instead?

                  Who insulted you exactly? Do you think pointing out the fact that your beliefs are nonsense and your religion causes conflicts (both true) is an insult of some kind?

                  1. jacharless profile image81
                    jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, look on the bright side, Marcus, if your back is up, you are halfway to standing up straight. wink

                    Same reason you do not kept your to yourself. Every human being has the right to say what they desire or think or believe. At least in most modern free societies. And no other human is under any obligation to listen nor reply to any persons words, thoughts, feelings or beliefs. Might be fun to see you put your own squawking into practice and do what you are asking of others.

                    http://www.wnd.com/images/misc/pullplugtwo.jpg

                  2. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
                    schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I know I'm not demonstrably more patient and loving than anyone else. That's not the point. Following "Jesus" is what works for ME.  Why would you want to take away from me what works for me and is holding me together and inspiring me whether you belive it or not?
                    Who said I'm your average Christian or the type you describe?
                    Why can't I be what I want without you persecuting me?!
                    And why can't you keep your irrational beliefs to yourself?

                    Boy, you are so funny and so blind I might add to think that going around calling anyone you feel like irrational is ok. Would you tell a grocery shopper than because they are buying watermelon that raspberries is way better?

                  3. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
                    schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, I do believe that telling me my beliefs are nonsense is an insult. Just as much as you would belive that me telling you that yours are nonsense or telling you something similar like "your going to hell" is an insult, but I haven't done that have I?

                2. Stevennix2001 profile image83
                  Stevennix2001posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Well schoolgirl, I believe I told Sally Trove this once in a thread she opened up a thread about how do men engage women on hubpages or something to that effect.  She was curious as to why most forums fall off topic with some form of flirtation.  Well at one point, I did cite out how most political and religious forums don't go astray often due to flirtation.  And she even conceded with me too.  Here's what was said between us, as it should help answer your query:





                  then she replied:





                  Edit:  To be fair though, none of us agreed nor disagreed about the concept of religion at all.  We just agreed that people tend to get so passionate about their beliefs that they feel it almost defines them individually.  Feeling that if they don't challenge the opposing view, then it could disrupt the world.  Whether you want to believe that or not, it's up to you.  However, she does raise a good point at the end.  And if you ask me, most people tend to only believe what they want to believe.  Which is sad but it's true.  It's one of the main reasons why we haven't come any closer to world peace yet, as everyone refuses to see the other parties' point of view.

                  1. schoolgirlforreal profile image77
                    schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    well thankyou Steven, spoken like a true gentleman, and makes sense smile

 
working