I am venting here, but I just finished a conversation with a born again Christian. I was told that we have lost our moral compass, we all need Christ, America has gone to hell in a hand basket.
According to the conversation;
Divorce is a sin (from a divorced woman)
Living without the benefit of marriage is a sin (from a woman that lived with a man for ten years)
Drinking alcohol is a sin (from a woman that has a history of excessive drinking)
Smoking marijuana is a sin (from a woman who, I know, used more recreational drugs than that)
My question is, how in the world do born agains carry on such a hypocritical conversation with a straight face?
Why do born again Christians make their mistakes, have their fun, learn their lessons and then tell everyone else they are living in sin?
I would honestly like to know how this thought process works.
seems to be the more sex, drugs & rock'n'roll, the sweeter the salvation.
Maybe that's my problem. I've always been moderate in my destructive behavior patterns. A little bit of everything is good for you, in my opinion
lol bailey!...you know that Pastor has to keep his sisters in Christ happy!!!!!
keeps them tythe's comming in. The lease on the Cadillac Esclade, OOPS- I meant church Bus, is due!
I remember listening to all these testimonies and feeling a little jealous that they got to do some exciting (and a lot of times normal) stuff.
Unlike me - did nothing awful, but was brought up to believe I was a dirty rotten sinner
As a Born Again Christian, I have never felt that I am worthy of pre-judging or judging others, for though I am a Christian, I still sin. I would never presume to tell another that this or that is wrong in their lives, as that is not what I am called by God to do. All God asks of any Christian is to spread the news of His Gospel nothing more.
It works just like the Church they attend!
The back door looks nothing like its Front! Never fails.
Question about this woman you're talking about- has she stopped and turned from those actions?
Has she improved and learned from her actions?
It's not just born again Christians but the whole concept of someone else dying for your sins is like having a get out of jail free card. Each time you sin you can just point to Jesus and proclaim that he will pay for it. Then the question remains "What is to stop a person from sinning if they have already been forgiven?".
Emile, I'm going to let a few of the more fundamental Christians answer this post before I give you my thoughts...and I definitely have them.
Yeh. I've got strong opinions too, and my tongue is bleeding from holding it; after it became obvious rewritten history trumps reality.
I call myself a Christian, easily. But, I differ widely in what the behavior of a Christian should be toward a non believer, and the type of thing you're talking about burns my a$$ in a big way. If you're ever interested, I've written a couple hubs (I can't remember if you've already stopped by them or not) about my personal opinions.
I came to faith as an adult and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. BUT - I was kept away for longer than I think I should have been by the type of person you refer to.
Don't let your tongue bleed honey. Be honest and open.
Honesty and openness serves no purpose, when dealing with the delusional. That is the most pathetic conversation I've ever been involved in.
When it was done, she was courteous enough to apologize for chastising me, since she wasn't really judging me. Just trying to help me understand that I have sinned. I have made my mistakes, like anyone else; but sin? I'd like to know why these people think they have crawled up in my head and understood what I consider to be wrong. Or have the right to make that judgement for anyone in the first place.
Well, I've recently - and it's been a process, I'll admit - come to the point that I recognize it is not my place to judge. Period. First, I don't know where a person is with God, and second, the God I believe in has commanded me to love. Period again. That's what I'm here to do - and lots of folks call that shirking my responsibility to share the Gospel. I don't do any such thing. It is God's place to show a person what they may have done that contradicts His plan for them. Once that happens, I can only love them, but it certainly isn't MY place to read a person a arm's long list of their sins and demand that they ask forgiveness.
I do believe in sin...but I don't believe it's my place to tell someone else what THEIR sins are.
Makes me unpopular with some, but I'm okay with the God of my understanding, and that's what matters.
Thanks Motown I wish more people understood your take, that you live your life as a christian and show by example, rather than try to force your views on others.
I think this is the the real face of christianity.
I try. Sometimes I fail - miserably...lol But, that's okay. I try not to live under the illusion that my faith has already perfected me. I believe I learn from every failure and that my earthly life is meant to be a process of learning through failure, love, and tolerance.
Call me crazy!
Thank you. I'm still growing, no question about that, but I'm grateful to be at a point where I can discuss my faith with someone who might not have any, and we can both walk away without having alienated one another. People are way more important to me than rules, when it boils down to it. I always saw Jesus as being that way, too.
Well I'd be prepared to listen to your views on the subject with your more humble attitude.
The ranting idiots with the 'higher art thou' attitudes/egos don't see how much they repulse people
I have to say a big thank you for that. I've seen you round the forums of course, and certainly can understand your frustration with the way the "case for Christ," as it were, is often put forth. Trust me, I experience my own frustration watching my Christian friends browbeat those who don't share their beliefs. I mentioned to someone the other day that I came to faith as an adult, but much later than I might have had it not been for fundies who beat me with Scripture until I was bruised and quite broken by the whole idea.
I think the difference for me is that I'm able to understand unbelief and tolerate it. Everyone is different, and sees differently. Who am I to tell someone what they should be doing or seeing?
But, I'll gladly discuss anything you like, and do my utmost to answer questions as honestly as I know how. Pleasure to be formally introduced by the way.
you're welcome. Finally we get a believer that seems balanced and 'normal.' Yes, these forums are frustrating, but I can't help but check them out. Lots of fodder for my new blog.
You "tolerate" unbelief because you understand it? That's even more insulting to the intellect than telling us we'll burn for an eternity.
Yep, that's fine with me. I live with religion as we all do. I do not appreciate those spreading fundamentalist hate, and know we share that thinking from your posts.
I'm not sure what prompted your discussion with your friends, yet I know for certain that one who lives Christ-like will be the first to admit their mistakes and not force right or wrong down your throat. A true Christian will understand the process it takes to getting it right and in trying to show you God's path will open their mistakes to you.
As far as I'm concerned, even being a Christian as I am today, it is not an easy road. Thus it is not enough to say something is wrong, we have to show it through our own lives. Show that we too have made mistakes and still do, yet try everyday to live for Christ.
Well, now that I've calmed down I see I probably brought the conversation on myself. But that isn't the point. Making mistakes is part of life. It's one of the ways we learn.
Why put such a horrible stigma on something so natural; and why lie to yourself? Not you, but those who conveniently forget their own past, in their mad rush to judge others in the name of God.
I am so sorry you are experiencing this frustration and aggravation. I get those feelings listening to people in politics, education higher ups, and the list is unending. Ihope you won't lump all Christians into the same narrow-minded and seemingly heartless barrel of apples. Yes, the God tells me whatHe says is sin, and I do my best to live by His teachings.
When I make my mistakes, He forgives me. Why shouldn't I be allowed to have fun? I learn from my mistakes and move on. I work hard to be a good example to friends and family being a person of good character.
Telling everyone they are living in sin? Christians who truly understand, will not preach AT another, but share their thoughts when asked from their experiences and knowledge. We - the overthetop people excluded--are given a task by God, to preach to the world the gospel of Christ, not to brow beat those who dont know Him . Most sermons are given to encourage believers and get through this world.
It hurts to know that when one Christian does something really bad, the world thinks all of us are that way. Think about all groups of all kinds. When one teacher does something wrong, the world starts hating them all, when one lawyer messes up, they are all crooks. In that way, Christians are seen no differently. I think we are just more visible targets because of the message we have been carrying for so long.
I can hear your frustration, but, please believe me when I say, we are not all pushy, insensitive and haters. sorry this is so long.
Motown, you have such a sweet way of expressing yourself. Emile, I like you. All the best to you in your life.
Well its like this they lived in sin once, so they know what is sin. Now that GOD has changed their lives and they learn the bible they see the light and all the darkness that they was in them is made known.
All those things that the person said is sin. Christians are sinners saved by grace. If you are a Christian you ought to follow all of God's word if you do not know it make a difference.
Any christian that YOU know lives in fornication, drink etc and says thy are born again THEY ARE NOT. Ought to be living a life pleasing to GOD with a free conscience of what's right. Yet we all make mistakes because we are human.
The bible states if a man and a woman divorce the man can remarry but the woman cannot remarry unless her first husband dies. God has his reasons and lets not be to nosey.
Also AMERICA is the most rotten nation on the earth that has spread it's germs worldwide. It's a cursed nation
Divorce by the millions
Holly wood produces sluts and gigolos by the thousands
They don't want prayers in school
Have little fair of God
Before I comment, I'd like to verify. Are you serious? Or is this a joke.
Hi. You should read Daniel Carter's comment. Its a really good response. You could learn something.
It's great to see that YOU are not a judgmental Christian.
I guess everybody who doesn't worship your imainary God sucks!
From my observation, most of this Christian judgment and vitriol is only about that person. Inside, they know how much they've let themselves down by not living with much integrity in their past, so they knee-jerk into this militant, white-knuckle life and project all their fears of self and their world around them on to others. If you ask them, they are not hateful or flawed (they are just "sinners", which is forgivable), it's simply the sinful world around them. So in order to redeem themselves, they have to judge everything else around them as the cause for their own downfall. They are forgiven by Jesus because they can't forgive themselves. They wait for God to rescue them when they should have rescued themselves from their own mistakes, misery, and flawed thinking long ago.
Those who are truly at peace with themselves don't ever find a need to lash out at others. They have a basic understanding of a few simple concepts:
Love is all their is.
Everything else is a cry for help.
The louder they decry the evil world and people around them, the more they seem to expose their own insecurities with their self and their belief systems. Their "faith" is strong because if what they believed wasn't true, they wouldn't know how else to proceed and they feel it would destroy them. Thus a life based in fear, not love.
As I say, these are my observations. In part because I was devout for over 40 years, but now have no inclination or affinity to religious thought at all. Despite that, I believe that connecting spiritually is extremely important for sanity, health, and awareness of who we all are.
Daniel, I have so much respect for what you've said in this post, and for the fact that you acknowledge that it is your observation of some, rather than making the blanket statement that all Christians behave this way. Thank you for having that respect for our faith, the same way that some of us have that respect for your choice not to adhere to it. I also love that you acknowledge a belief in spiritual seeking and connection. This entire post was beautiful and loving, imo.
Thank you, very much. Most of my family and friends are very devout believers. I accept whole-heartedly their right to choose their path, as it seems good and healthy for them. Many of them, however, find it very difficult that I have "left" the beliefs I was taught. It's harder for them to accept what I've done more than it is difficult for me to accept their path.
And so it goes. I accept people's path that they choose for themselves as long as it's healthy and good for them. However, when spewing, hate and vitriol appear, regardless of belief or unbelief, it seems to me to only be a symptom of their own self loathing, doubt and insecurity. They truly doubt what they claim to believe, but since they cannot accept the doubt, they white-knuckle their way along claiming a "greater" faith and belief than before, insisting their is no other way but their own chosen path.
Truth is, it's fine for them, but it never seems that "one-size-fits-all" works. Not for all people, all of the time.
So ends my rant on this topic.
Rant away, my friend. Fact is, if I claim belief in a loving and intelligent God and call Him my father, I would expect that HE expects doubt on occasion, and certainly He expects questions from me in an attempt to understand. Any earthly father would want that from his child yes? I think the whole - I have no questions and have already figured out the grand scheme of life and the world for me (oh, and for YOU too) attitude - is a bunch of crap.
It seems, at least from my prospective, that the born agains have issues with ego. The ego in us has to be right. Our higher self (or spirit) does not need to prove anything or be right. It's the ego that does.
Also, you have to understand we are all attracted to things (belief systems) that reflect where we are vibrationally. So, if you are someone who energetically vibrate at the low vibration of fear, and guilt, you will be attracted to this sort of religion. If you are someone who vibrates at a higher vibration (let's say love), you won't be attracted to this religion. You will be attracted to a religion that doesn't judge or maybe more of the spiritual nature.
That's just my perspective.
The Born Again Christian mentality is still the same mentality previously carried by believers, in most cases and places. I explained this once regarding unbelievers also -or more precisely atheists. They once believed exactly like the BAC do, followed the doctrine, assaulted others for their crimes called sin while at the same time cried out for forgiveness of their own.
This means the mentality has never changed. One has been replaced with another. Liken it to a drug addiction. When the individual breaks away from the drug itself we'll metaphorically call them Born Again. Now free of the substance itself, they need to fill the void of that rush. So, they find 'love' among others who experienced the same. They add a new caption to their belts like others add the caption, "I have a friend named Bill". They go through a detoxification program and continue to go to meetings. Just like those AA meetings, they bounce experiences off each other, to satisfy or keep at bay the SIDE EFFECTS of that former indulgence. Some use criticism to others by saying, "OMG! You need to go to a meeting! You're a sinner!" while others are prone to grumble and walk away, because they didn't get their fix the way the envisioned (the latter I reference as atheists).
So, what remains is a person who might truly desire to see others free of the addiction, but the methods used to 'help' others is a mix of confusion and 'bible sound bites'. This is why many BAC's quote scripture often, and cannot reason passed the text, because the side effects still hold them in check. Same side effects that make them babble in fake tongues or pretend to heal -even to mock their former belief.
They mean well, but often their approach is obscure to the average individual. To protect themselves, they lash out at others as self defense, when in truth, they are protecting that fix, those leftover effects because Bill and their former addicts said it was the right thing to do.
Some, very few have completely broken free of both the drug and its effects. Those are the kind of people I personally would call truly Born Again.
Sounds reasonable. It's quite frustrating to deal with though. I didn't realize being born a again could cause amnesia. That should be clearly labeled as one of the possible side effects of conversion.
You know, James, I could agree with the sentiment you're trying to put forth here, but when it comes down to it, your view of the 12 Steps (your whole friend of Bill analogy) is just a bit skewed. Rarely are 12 steppers as judgmental as fundy Christians tend to be, and the main reason is that they NEVER forget where they came from, and they NEVER forget that one hit, one drink, whatever, can put them right back there. I'm not sure what kind of 12 steppers you've run into, but two fundamental characteristics of the program are rigorous honesty about ONE'S OWN life, and non-judgment of any others.
I used it only as a vague analogy, to express how the operation of most BAC works. In truth, most BAC operate in often misunderstood ways -ways that seem foreign to most. I coined them: 'the reluctant whosoever'. Instead of keeping it real -by expressing the good news, by good works of faith, they promote their cause. That is where the trouble begins, imo. Salvation does not need a marketing team nor is there a group discount for getting as many in as possible before the window closes.
My concern has never been their desire to be completely free, but the complacency of docket style chapter and verse coupled with super-emote aka 'spiritual feelings' versus a genuine 'let go, let G-d' idea -meaning letting go of the drug, the addiction and the concept of those side effects of a former indulgence.
The key to being born again isn't saying, "Jesus come into my heart." It is doing the Kingdom is in my heart!
That is why I did the comparison. AA folk or NA folk will always tell you, no matter what happens, they will always be an addict. This is exactly what BACs tell people -you'll always be a sinner. Accept it (step one)... Manage it by 'avoiding' the drug/beer/sex, etc' but never actually dealing with it head on and destroying any connection to it -especially the thoughts behind it including the 'you'll always be no good' concept.
What is really ironic, atheism is the same thing. (part of the reason atheists are so intent in religious dialogue. But that is for another thread all together. jeje ).
Some body can witness our first birth.we can not.
Nobody can witness our second birth[i.e Born again] .But we can.
When one becomes born again it doesn't mean they will never sin again. Scripture tells us that the flesh and the spirit are always at war with each other...that is why Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit...to help us live according to the spirit and not the flesh. That is why it is important to pray to receive grace to avoid sin. But we are always tempted. God knows our weakness and is always merciful if we ask.
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