egg meets sperm

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Just wondering what believers think.
   
   When a womans egg is fertalized, is a soul "CREATED"
   
          And I don't want to argue if a thing called a Soul exists. (Bellzadad)  I believe it does. And I am not going to change my mind.     
                          ********
    
     If a soul is created because of this fertalization, Are WE not then the creator of souls?
   
      I know, this is oversimplified as to what I am getting at.
   I just can not believe that we are the creators of souls.
                    
            OR
      Is this fetus a vehichle manufactured In this physical realm that a soul chooses to inhabit.
   
       It has gotta be one or the other doesn't it?

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      aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not sure if it HAS to be either or, simply 'cause we don't know.
      
      My thoughts on it are that the "souls" enters when the first breath is taken in.
      
      I'm using the story of Adam as a basis here. Gad made him from the dust, and "breathed" life into him, and he became "a living soul". Also, when a person dies, they release their last breath, their "soul" is separated from the body.
      Gen 2;7
      "And the Lord God made man from the dust of the earth, breathing into him the breath of life: and man became a living soul."
      
      Just my understanding.

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         wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Good answer.
         
         What might it mean, though, for the brain dead body that is kept alive on a ventilator as our medical profession is prone to do?  Is that doctor "holding" that soul in unnatural bondage against its will? 
         
         I doubt that many people would agree (I wouldn't!) with the necessary corollary that a fetus is neither alive nor human until exposed to air.
         
         Things have a way of becoming complicated.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         And I too can agree with this explination

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         Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         but that's not consistent with not aborting a fetus.

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      klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Ding! Ding! Ding!
      You nailed it. That's exactly what happens!

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Just woke up ater a two hour nap.  12:45 AM now.
         can't stay too long.
         
           That is what I think also.
         
           And I think everyone should give this a lot of thought.
         
         --  -- 
         wilderness I knew that it has broader implications but to start with  ???  we either create (ourselves) the soul when giving birth or at the moment of fertalization,
         
           I would think that us believers need to rethink the creation story.
           Ok God created mankind in one way or another; and then put the soul into him/her. ?????
         
            I didn't intend to start an abortion arguement.
         
           Just wondering where the soul came from that God put into us?
           Or is a NEW soul created whenever a baby is conceived or born??

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            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Your thinking appears to be in line with something I read in the gnostic gospels. Verse 29. When I saw that, I wondered how different the abortion debate would be if Christians were taught that, instead of whatever reasoning is used to fuel their side of the argument. I doubt anyone two thousand years ago knew much about fetal development. I'm sure he was speaking of the moment of birth.

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            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I know you didn't mean to start an abortion argument and I didn't mean to hijack your thread.  I merely intended to show that the question has more facets than merely the religious one of soul.
            
            The implications are many and varied and don't stop at abortion.  I see in the paper where an addict is in trouble for feeding her baby contaminated breast milk; the same reasoning certainly holds for a fetus still in the womb if it is human.
            
            Personally, I'm not prepared to claim that a single cell makes a human being, but neither am I prepared to say that a 9 month fetus isn't.  Somewhere in between that fetus crosses a line and becomes a human being.
            
            Is it the first heartbeat?  Is it the moment the cord is cut (up until then the fetus is merely a tumor connected to the mother)?  Is it the first prefrontal brain activity?  If a soul is what makes humanity it would almost make sense to believe that that point in time is when the soul enters the body.

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I agree ..  The brain is fully formed around the fifth month of pregnancy,  I do not think that it is before that the soul would enter the body.
               
                  I would think that when the brain is fully formed, it would have a contributing factor with the formation of the body from that point on.
               
                 But who am I to say or sure?

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                  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not sure that a fully formed brain would be much of a factor in the further growth of the body, but it certainly does in the formation of the personality, the intelligence "running" that body.  And that is what counts - a deformed, twisted body does not make that fetus something less than human.
                  
                  I would be a little reluctant to declare that it is only the third trimester that a fetus is actually human - it does not seem reasonable to require a fully formed brain.  Indeed, does not the brain continue some growth after birth?  The cranium certainly grows and expands! 
                  
                  Who are we to say?  Philosophically, no one.  No one can ever know.  Legally, however, this is an issue that is becoming stronger all the time (those other ramifications) and it seems to me that we all need to have an opinion.  Hopefully based on something more than a blind choice of whatever comes to mind, but an opinion nonetheless.

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            klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The REAL question remains...
            
                         
                              What came first? The sperm or the egg?
            
                                                   
            ...MOVE ASIDE CHICKEN!!!

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            1. 58

               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Don't know.
               
               
                  When sex is involved ??? 
                 simultaniously is a good word.
               
                 egg and sperm has to be simultanious to be productive don't it?

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                  klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  But without the sperm there would be no females and no eggs. So... which came first?
                  
                  
                  
                  

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                     Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Hopefully, the female.

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                        klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        And where did the female come from, Beelyboy?

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                           Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Perhaps from a rib, but at least she should come first, don't you think?

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                              klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I didn't come from any man's rib. I'm no pork chop, beely!

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                                 wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 No, just a human chop.
                                 
                                 Actually, Beelzedad may be right.  Some frogs are known to reproduce without any males, and can even produce both male and female frogs this way. 
                                 
                                 Maybe you're just a frog!

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                                    klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Shhhh... keep it down... they love froglegs here in South Florida!

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                                       wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       I'm so sorry, Klara - I meant no harm.  But, you know, this IS a public forum.
                                       
                                       Now where's my frog gig?

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                                       Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       We like legs in my neighborhood

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                     Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Attempting to give serious answer would cause my head to explode.
                        Actually the cartoon has the answer.
                     
                       the sperm is ordained to seak out the egg.
                     It has no other objective, SOoo if there wasn't already an egg to search for, the sperm would have no purpose in being.
                     
                        purpose existed beore the quest can begin.
                     
                       The egg definately wasn't last..

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sure, you might as well ask that when a leprechaun rides a unicorn, does it use a saddle or ride bareback?   
                             
       
       
      
      That depends, what is a soul, Jerami? Can you define it and tell us exactly where in the body it resides?
      
      
      
      No, it doesn't, that is, unless you can tell us exactly what is a soul?

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      getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Just wondering what believers think.
      
      When a chicken's egg is fertilized is a soul "CREATED?"

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      there are some good answers here, but I like to take it ne step further...
      
      When, where did life actually begin?
      is it with the sperm or with the egg, or it is the combinaton of the two.
      
      if a soul is alive, how does it differentiate from one that is dead?
      
      If you are an alive soul, then why then do you finally end up dead?
      
      Life perpetuates itself through this principle,
      two become ONE, then the ONE become two.....
      
      death perpetuates itself by simulating Life principle except it seeks prevents the ultimate two from become ONE, by deceiving them to believe they are already one....that is the soul.

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      Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      the people in the bible had no concept of egg and sperm.  They wrote that the seed from the man gets planted in the field of the woman, and only women could be infertile

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   wildernessposted 12 years ago

   You ask a question with a much broader implication than you perhaps meant to.  If the soul is not created (or at least enters the scene) with fertilization, when does it come into being?  Or, rephrasing, when does that fertilized egg become human?
   
   Which is another way to ask when does abortion become murder?  Realizing, of course, that if it happens upon fertilization that the "morning after" pill is murder while if it does not then only at some later date is murder actually a possibility.

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   good morning Emile R 
   
     I have never read any of the Gnostic gospels.
   Have seen a few TV shows. I have been trying to understand what is written, unhindered by that which somebody else says.
   
     If a person could read the bible unhindered from previously taught interpretations of that which "We are supposed to understand" when we read it; we would all come to a different conclusion.
   
     It seems to me that Jesus is not the foundation upon which Christianity is built.
    
     Paul  IS  the foundation upon which many people build their belief system.
   
     There are many simply stated messages that Jesus is said to have spoken. BUT … because Paul said "such-and-such" we are forced to interpret the simply stated words of Christ to mean something completely opposite from its obvious meaning.
   
      If Jesus is the true foundation upon which Christianity is built ???   We would try harder to understand what Paul said in a way as to conform to that which Jesus taught.
   
     I am not saying that what Paul taught is false.
   I am saying that we have interpreted his teachings wrong.
   
     We should understand Paul’s teachings in a way that conforms to the teachings of Christ. NOT the other way around!!!
   
     When an arrow MISSES the mark, it really doesn't matter if it misses by an inch or a mile.
   
     We should read the words written in RED and understand them completely before we blindly follow what someone else SAYS Paul said.
   
     Jesus taught a simple message ...  One that he knew a child would understand BUT  the self proclaimed "Wise ??" man wouldn't.
   
     Simple message with a simple meaning.
     First read what Jesus said, then read the messages that Gabriel delivered.  Understand these, and THEN add to the message with things the disciples said. 
     Add to the foundation which Jesus and Gabriel has lain.
   
     Don't alter the foundation so that it agrees whit that which somebody says Paul said.  Do that and our understanding gets all turned around.   
   We will not only miss the target, we won’t be able to hit the broad side of the barn.  Oh wait …        where is the barn?

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hey jerami. I just noticed I didn't tell you which gnostic gospel. It was Thomas.
      
      I think you are right about reading your New Testament. People should read, with no preconceived notions, and come to their own conclusions. Putting the most emphasis on the words of the one they claim to follow.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks,  I am convinced that when we build our foundation for our belief system upon those things Jesus said, or Paul said, or Matthew said etc,  we will form as many different beliefs as there are verses in the bible.
         
           We gota begin the treasure hunt at the right spot, or we miss the treasure.
         
           Take four steps right, then six left etc beginning at different spots will take us to as many different outcomes as there are starting places.
         
           Or something like that anyway

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   I just think that IF the soul enters the body, and the body is little more than a vehichle in which the soul enters; this would give us a totally different prospective for God to cause the deaths of SOoo many people.
   
     Kinda like the teacher calling us in from recess for misbehaving and stealing the pleasure of recess from the other kids on the playground.
   
     Death would be kinda like having our car reposed until we can better afford to take care of it.
      Some of us are taking our car to the demolition derby, it would seem.

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      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Be careful Jarami - is this really a road we wish to embrace?
      
      It makes anything you might care to do to another person little more than an undesirable blip in their existence, barely worth mentioning. 
      
      Kinda like the worker gone "postal" and sending his boss back to the drawing board (new body to inhabit) because the worker was fired improperly.
      
      Not a path I care to walk.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Sorry,  I had company come over for a ew minutes.
         
           --  --
           I see where you are coming from, and agree that is not where we would want to go.
         
           If the children would only behave?
         
           And no I don't think that the children have the authority to send another child to time out.

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            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Forgiven!  Actually, I have company of my own coming over shortly - my son and grandchildren are coming to celebrate my birthday today, so won't be here for long.  It'll be playtime with the kids!
            
            Ah, but the children just won't behave.  Especially when they do not view themselves as children but as responsible adults, required to help others reach their final destiny.

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               That just about sums it up.
               
                 And happy birthday. Have a great time with the grand kids.

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                  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you.  I intend to have a good time.  We took them to the lake yesterday for a swim - today is fun around the house.  I just finished a play area for the little ones around some trees and big bushes - "secret" paths through the growth, climbing rocks, etc.  Should be great fun and a great way to spend a birthday.  Maybe help an old man continue his zest for life.

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   knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

   According to a dream I had a long time ago it is this: " ... this fetus a vehichle manufactured In this physical realm that a soul chooses to inhabit." However since physical bodies are manufactured
   automatically, would every body get or produce some aspect of soul, which is a lot of manufacturing, or just those chosen by already existent souls? A question I have
   just recently asked myself.

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      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If only pre-existing souls inhabit bodies, I would have to wonder how it worked thousands of years ago.  20,000 years ago, when there were only a few bodies available, did souls have to wait for thousands and thousands of years to get a body?  Did freshly "dead" souls have to wait their turn to get another for thousands of years?  Will there come a time when there are more bodies on earth than there are souls?
      
      If souls are created new for each body manufactured, will there come a time when the "space" they occupy fills up?

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I've ask myself that same question.
      
         What if a body is produced that not a single soul would want?
      
        What if more bodies were produced than there are willing souls to inhabit them ?   HMmmmm.   
        Is there a such thing as a human without a soul?,
      
        If there are and their numbers were to outnumber those with a soul ;   this would be a good reason for population reduction.
      
          OK  I'm getting I go over the edge.

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         klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         Obviously, souls are not that picky!
         
         
         

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         Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         would that be implying that these 'souls' rejected a stillborn baby - cruel buggers
         
         This is how ridiculous a soul argument gets, because it's ultimately cruel

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   heavenbound5511posted 12 years ago

   What the Lord says about babies:
   
   Here we are told that it is the Lord Himself that forms each of us in our mother's womb:
   
   Is 44:24-This is what the Lord says your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
   
   Next look at- God says He has upheld us since the moment we were conceived. Now if we were just a blob of ectoplasm or something like that, then why would God uphold us then?                  We would not have any more worth then a lump of play doh in a kid's hand. No, He has upheld us since that moment, because it was at that moment we have souls, just as we will throughout our entire lives. That's what separates us from everything else.
   
   Is 46:3-4- Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
   
   This next verse- Is 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the Lord called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.
   
   If we do not have souls from conception on, then how can the Lord have called Him before He was born?
   There would be no "person" to call! Therefore we must have souls from conception on.
   
   There are many verses that establish that the Lord has given babies souls, but most of them are talking about at birth or after.
   This one though says that the Lord brings us out of the womb. In this verse, the baby obviously lived to tell about it, lol, but if it is God who brings us out of the womb as well as forms us in the womb, then even a still born baby would have a soul according to these next verses.
   
   Ps 22:9-10 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
   
   Ps 71:6- From birth I have relied on you; you brought me forth from my mother's womb. I will ever praise you.
   
   
   Again in this next verse the Lord says that He set Jeremiah apart even before he was born, so again, he must have had a soul before he was born. This verse goes much further than having a soul at conception though because in it the Lord says that He knew Jeremiah even before He formed Jeremiah in the womb!
   
   Jer 1:4-5 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Jer 1:4-5 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
   
   
       Sounds like Jeramiah was a soul who God knew, and was apointed the task of being a prophet even before he was formed within the womb.
   
      Sounds as though Jeremiah was who he was long beore he entered into the womb.
   
     This agrees with what I was thinking.

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   awareposted 12 years ago

   We are creators . I think as creators ,its only natural  we entertain  and ponder   the possibility of  greater creators than we.
   ray

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