You may want to read my first Question before reading or answering this. I try incredibly hard to be humble, but I must say that I notice many Christians around me who know hardly anything about God or Jesus. Studies show that very few Christians remember all Ten Commandments, know the principles of salvation, or even read their Bibles. I've taken several theology classes, and tho I don't pride myself as knowing EVERYTHING about the Bible, I notice that many of my fellow Christians (and even those who are wondering about becoming Christian) have questions, and I'd love to try providing answers. So please, anyone have a question about God or the Bible? Any comments?
It's a good idea to have the Word of God everywhere you are. You can use "post it notes" of the Word in your: car, on your refrigerator, near your bed, on your front door, back door, bathroom mirror, etc. Once you've read each as daily through out a week; you can rotate the post it notes. This can be fun if done with enthusiasm. God Bless
Why do you feel the need to believe in something that does not exist?
Because process of elimination proves he does exist. Believing evolution caused us is just stupid, and if the methods scientists use to prove it are true, than ur a rat, I'm a bear, and we're both apes. Look it up if u don't kno what I mean. Rats and bears have similar bone and organ structures to humans, which, according to "science" means they're our cousins, brothers, and possibly even us.
Yes - they are our cousins. All life on earth is related. Yet you prefer religious clap trap to real knowledge. Sad.
I would be interested in this process of elimination where you managed to eliminate an infinite number of other possibilities. How long did this take you?
Easy. Atheists don't kno what they believe. Neither do Agnostics. So that proves there is a God. If u disagree, than please, enlighten me, and tell me something no atheist has ever told me: where did the first living cells that sparked evolution, or the first atoms that caused the Big Bang, come from? It took me several years. Being born in a Christian home isn't the same as being Christian.
How does me not believing in a god prove there is one?
Just because there are some things we do not know - does not mean it was Majik.
Majik (okay, I'll bite. U skipped ur second grade spelling class?)? There's no magic in the Bible. God works thru purely normal natural occurances, but at the same time he manipulates it at a rate of power humans can never possess. The Bible even tells us this: several times it tells how God did miracles. Magic and Supernaturality rn't the same thing.
Magic and Supernaturality rn't the same thing?
Wot is Supernaturality?
What nonsense. When Jesus does it, it is not majik? Color me confused.
Prove your statements please. And while we are talking about spelling. Do you see how many spelling mistakes in your statements there are? And you call me on spelling instead of proving your ridiculous claims?
You still didn't tell me how long it took you to eliminate all the other infinite possibilities to leave yourself with the Majikal Biblikal Invisible God as the only option. Must have taken a long time huh?
I'm using text-speak. Ur just using spelling errors that don't shorten ur words at all. Supernaturality - "super" L. adj. very large, above, beyond. "nature" n. the world around us, 'outside', which is subject to scientific law. ("natural" - of nature)
"supernatural" - n/adj. beyond natural.
I DID tell u how long it took me. So do u have a reading problem too?
I am using proper English. This is not a text situation, it is a discussion forum. If you choose to shorten your words and mis-spell and make up words that do not exist - I will as well. Zat k wicha? LOL that the only dictionary that recognizes that word happens to be written by religionists. So - tell me - why is supernaturalityismness different from majik when Jesus did it?
Sorry - I missed where you explained how long it took you and where you investigated and disproved the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all the other Gods and other possibilities. What evidence was it that made you reject them? Or was it lack of evidence?
And as there is an infinite number - it must have taken a very, very long time. How long was it again?
Come on - you need to up your game otherwise it looks as though you are making nonsense claims and then attacking people when they laugh at the ridiculousness of your claims.
I hope you will now start spelling correctly and using proper English from now on. I will if you will. Thank you.
Polytheism is obviously incorrect, and a look thru history can prove that, as people have been disproving it for centuries. So that narrows it down to three: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Christianity openly believes almost all the same things as Judaism, and it's a pretty easy step from there to realize Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God (he fulfilled all the prophecies), so Christianity must be true. Islam, the last one, copies both, and does it poorly, while also obviously inserting traditional beliefs and cultural laws, so that by the time you read Revelation 22:18 it's obvious Islam isn't true. No offense to Muslims, tho I'd like to preach to any of them reading this in order that they see their errors and convert.
But, this a public forum, not a text messaging site. You'll find that many will simply skip over your "text-speak" and not read your posts, simply due to the fact that they are a pain to read. I only read this post because it was replied to by evo guy but usually I just skip over your posts for that reason.
Come out of your shell and talk something rational and logical. Can't you say something other than utter nonsense?
Religion and spirituality is something bigger. These are something that is out of the 'coverage area of your brain'.
Grow up. Get Evolved.
And Rumpelstiltskin can spin straw into gold, but at the rate of power that humans can never possess. Do you see how childishly ignorant this mode of thinking is?
You can't use the bible to prove that God did miracles. You need independent sources to verify the claims. You need peer review and documentation that your God has succeeded in violating the laws of nature...something that, as of yet, has been impossible. Do you have any of this required data?
Please, please give us the specifics of what you mean by "REAL KNOWLEDGE." You keep referring to this "Real knowledge," but when asked you seem to have NO CLUE and refuse to give us this "Real knowledge" you keep talking about. Real science can be observed and repeated in "REAL" experiments. I have lots of questions for you that I don't think what you believe to be REAL science is based on ridiculous assumptions. As an example, you mentioned Einstein's theory of relativity. Did you know that 3 universities in the U.S. have slowed light down and even stopped it and that the speed of light has changed over time? Did you know that we have been able to speed up light 300 times it's current speed of approx. 186,000 miles per second? What does that do to Einstein's theory of relativity that uses the speed of light as a CONSTANT? Answer that question or admit that you may be wrong about a lot of what you believe to be "Real science."
In reference to "Mr. Evolution Guy" the human eye drove darwin nuts, he could never disavow that is was designed by a creator and not "evolved"
Untrue. And, this doesn't answer my question to begin with. So, let's try this again- Why do YOU feel the need to believe.
God gives me the need, plus I want to go to Heaven and be with God when I die.
So, it's fear basically. Good to know. Btw- YOU are the only one who can do anything with regards to "needs" in your life.
Yes, it's fear, but it's not fear of Hell, it's mostly fear of Sin. Once u come to grips with ur own sin, it scares u. In Heaven, there is no sin, and there's also God. Thus, Heaven's awesome.
This statement shows you lack understanding of your own life. Again, good to know.
What sin? My actions don't harm others, nor do they harm myself. Apparently, you do.
You wouldn't actually know, but saying so, don't make it true. There is no need for a "heaven" or "hell", or even a "god". Too bad, you don't really know each is a metaphor. Just in case you don't know what a metaphor is? It is a word used to explain something else.
To be completely honest, like I love to be- There is no god, simply because there isn't actually a need for one. Why? Because, live can be lived and understood without the belief.
Without God, there would be no universe, no Earth, no us. In the brief second Jesus (God in human form) died, the Bible describes a multitude of supernatural phenomena: The Temple falling to disrepair, the dead rising up from the grave, mass darkness and earthquakes, hysteria... basically, the world one second before ending. If there is no need for God, how come without him all the universe would just go haywire and cease to exist? Sin harms others and it harms our relationship with God, so what ur basically saying is ur perfect because u have never and do never hurt anyone in any way.
Untrue. It isn't something you can prove.
The bible says a lot of things, most in metaphors and parable religious language, which is all that was available to the human species at the time.
Untrue. Pure conjecture.
Perfect? No such thing. Perfection isn't anything humankind can ever attain. Each is flawed. I said I don't harm people with my actions, and I don't.
You do know this is garbage? Right? Dead rising up? Sin?
Sin is simply anything we do as humans that harms someone else or us (physically or mentally), which is why God hates it. R u saying u never have done that? Jesus rose from the dead, and so will everyone who is dead on the last day. U technically can't believe it until u believe Jesus was Our Saviour (which u wouldn't believe unless u believed YHWH).
Cagsil wrote "What sin? My actions don't harm others, nor do they harm myself".
did you read the book "im okay, you're okay" the truth is Gods okay, you're not
The point of God is not whether our sins hurt other people.. of course i am sure the adulterous relationship that you might have, won't hurt anyone, lol.. be realistic man... but the point is.. not that our sins hurt anyone but do they keep God out of your life? and if they keep God out of your life, oh... lake of fire... i guess they do not hurt you, but they will.
Your actions don't harm others, huh? So, if you commit adultery, cheat on your taxes, run a red light, drive drunk, or disobey your parents, you are not hurting anyone? Smoking doesn't harm you? Getting drunk doesn't harm you? Using illegal drugs doesn't harm you? The only reason you don't want to acknowledge God is because you don't want to give an account to anyone for how you've lived. Well, as they say, if you live like there's no God, you'd better be right.
I kno, it's gonna be great! Revelation actually gives us a small description of what God, or at least the Son (Jesus), looks like. "In the midst of the lampstands was one like the son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." Revelation 1:13-16 goes on to describe His hair color, skin, facial features, and even the Sword of the Spirit that comes out of his mouth (kinda hoping that part's a metaphor...).
Another source that provides a description of Jesus (as the future Messiah) is by Isaiah, an Old Testament prophet. Isaiah 53:2b says:
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. [NIV]
Verse 3 continues:
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [NIV]
Fear? How did you get fear from his posts? Desire. Now there was definitely a tone of desire in his posts. Just because you desire something doesn't mean that desire is driven by fear. Now my own desire to be in heaven is fear driven and even though he admitted that his desire is fear driven as well, I am just saying that his could be an array of things. We cannot just jump to assumptions.
I need God and I am not ashamed to say it
I am just a better and happier person having Him in my life!
exactly. why does a bear being your cousin seem so threatening? try having a bear track you in the forest, you will soon see how intelligent they are. try hiding food from a rat and it will blow your mind what ways they will come up with to find that food. as for apes, their intelligence speaks for itself.
There are some 38,000 reported sects of Christianity. Perhaps, you could enlighten them all so they are one unit all agreeing with one another.
Of course, what will ultimately occur is that they will probably all state emphatically that it is you who hardly knows anything.
I go to A church. Personally, I don't understand why there has to be a Baptist church and a Methodist church and several other churches in one area that are calling themselves different names. The basic point is: They're Churches, and they all believe and teach the same thing. Baptist, Methodist, etc. are just names, nothing else.
Then, by your own logic, your OP is fallacious and contradictory. The point is that if there are so many denominations, they must be teaching something different than the other denominations. And evidently, they are.
Yes Beel, a lot of differing interpretations, but most are minor, some are of larger issues and concerns. Some are over the strictness or liberalism of certain denominations, etc... but a lot of interpretations and variances as to the ways of life required and minutiae of the message given.
But on whole there is more in common than not.
In other words, the differences are of minor and major concern, which is basically a stating of the obvious.
If there are over 38,000 different denominations, then there are clearly well over 38,000 different interpretations that have much more to do than just strictness of liberalism.
With over 38,000 denominations? Obviously, they have very little in common.
Obviously? How? If there are 38,000 people in one part of the world, how does that mean they all are entirely diffrenent from one another?
We have been through the 38000 denomination thing before. The catholic church in armenia teaches the same thing as the cath church in new jersey. There are churches that shouldn't be listed: mormon, 7th day, etc.. If we strip away the churches called by their country names and get rid of the cults. There are 103 different church names and some of those have popped up because "the heavenly path church" did not want to affiliate with denominations.
The baptists all teach the same as do each denom.
So if i have a baptist church in each state i essentially have one business and 49 offices.
Ya have to look closer at how the denominations are set up. Its really quite a funny but sloppy interpretation of different denominations.
I doubt that there are over 38,000 denominations, maybe congregations or sects (which are branches of denominations). Some denominations come as a result of biblical interpretation; others start because the instigator wanted to teach his own thing (i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses).
There are thousands of different health clinics ,but we don't stop going to see a Doctor, now do we?
Out of all the Christians they/we do all agree on the most important subject Jesus died for our sins to save us. Now if we will all realize this is the foundation we agree on and come together in one accord that's a different thing. God will and is bringing the Body of Christ- those that have accepted Jesus as their Lord together in agreement. You may not see it but it's not mainly a physical thing but in agreement in one accord through prayer, praise, having the same spirit of God and sharing the Gospel of Jesus.
That is not entirely true. Otherwise there would not have been 2,000 years of warfare. Your beliefs are meaningless and simply cause strife because there is no compromise possible. Why aren't you off preying somewhere instead of demonstrating that 1) you do not follow the bible and 2) you do not actually believe - you just want to fight?
We just want to fight? Who got on this forum and started badmouthing Christianity unneededly? U. We're simply backing up our beliefs. 2,000 years of strife and warfare? Name one war started by Protestants over purely religious matters. If u can't, that proves we follow the Bible on some accounts, because we rn't hating everyone or being greedy.
You are not doing any such thing. You have nonsense to back your beliefs up with. A Majik book?
Heard of Northern Ireland? Unneededly? I though we sed we woz not gonna make up words that dint meen nuffink.
Unneededly is a word. I'll even give u the grammar lesson: "Un-" - prefix. not.
"needed" - necessary (might've accidentaly spelled the word wrong)
"-ly" - suffix. makes a base word an adverb.
Innit wot god sed?
Innit iz a wuerd alsssso I fink.
Did dod seddit innit?
You aren't going to take this seriously, are you? If you don't have anything serious to say or any questions about the Bible (which is kinda what this forum page is FOR), I'm not talking to you.
northern ireland these days cannot be considered a religious war. There is too much culture and politics involved. But the protestants did try to rid the isle of that nasty bit of catholicism probably before those catholics brought their inquisition to ireland. If that be the case - good on em.
They were probably tired of paying gratuities to get their dead out of purgatory too.
Plus we all use the same Bible and mostly only believe what's in it (at least those that READ IT do)
That's like saying get all the members of Congress together and get them to unite on one thing. Not gonna happen. Denominations are started because people believe something that the Bible does not necessarily say like politicians try to pass things something the Constitution does not necessarily permit. Jesus did not start sects or denominations. They are man-made.
I suppose YOU are involved in a cult with the correct Biblical interpretations?
I like to think I am. Do you not believe that your beliefs (whether evolution or atheism or whatever) are correct?
One thing I have always wondered is to what extent the 10 Commandments are meant to be absolutely context free, and to what extend they were meant for the People immediately after Exodus and somewhat specific to their needs. I mean, the bit about making idols was important for unity then, but many churches clearly have idols now and it is not seen as being as bad as murder, or even bad at all?
Actually, that's one problem with the Church. I think I mentioned it above, but people are forgetting the Ten Commandments, or are like "they're great to recite in Sunday School, but who needs to follow them. it's not like God said to or anything."
Psycheskinner: Your remark regarding idols is a good one and needs to be addressed. The Catholic church has done some things that are, in my mind, unconscionable. They have adopted the Alexander bible that is a bad copy of the original bible and they changed one of the commandments to eliminate the commandment that got rid of the reference to not having idols. To me, this is just wrong and blasphemous. Many things that have become part of the belief system is an interpretation of things that happened for a specific reason. A good example of this is in the Jewish religion as was the case during the last years of Moses, it was believed that a dying man has no reason to lie in his last hours on earth. The whole idea of meritocracy came from what Moses said to those around him as he was dying. His words were meant to enlighten those who were going into the promise land, yet Jews today believe if you are rich, GOD is blessing them and the more wealthy they become, the better status they attain in their synagogs. Does this make it right or wrong? Each person should examine the facts and make their own mind as to what is right or wrong about it based on study and understanding of the BIG PICTURE. Is there ANY commandment that is immoral? Offensive? Bad taste? In regard to idols, why would anyone think having idols is a good thing? My belief is that it creates a convenience to make money and ethically that is NOT a good reason and in fact, heresy, plain and simple.
God gave the 10 Commandment to the Hebrews (and us) to show us how we are to treat Him and each other. We are not to have any other God before Him. He is jealous (protective) of His glory.We are not to make any idols and worship them. Idols have demon spirits behind them. We are to keep God's name holy because His name means something. It's curious how people take His name and Jesus' name in vain but not Allah, nor Muhammad, nor Buddha, nor anyone else's. The only one I can see being laxed is the one about the Sabbath. The message behind the sabbath is to take one day off and rest.
The last six deal with our treatment of one another. We are to honor our parents. That goes without saying. We are to respect the property of others. We are not to bear false witness against them (tell lies about them). I think the ones about killing and adultery are obvious. We should not covet that which belongs to us because that leads to violations of the other commandments.
The only other laws that I can see that could be lax now are the dietary restrictions. They were not to eat pork or shellfish. Since we have better medical care, those restrictions are not so necessary anymore.
So a few of the commandments have become obsolete? So we are down to 8 commandments now? By the way, what language did god use when inscribing the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain? And could the people even read them at the time? Most of the people were still illiterate during the supposed time of Jesus.
And who can vouch for Moses veracity?
Why does it matter? You don't follow the ones in English. Arguing over trivialities is merely a distraction from the real issue: there is a God and you will give an account to Him one day, whether you subscribe to that belief or not.
I don't follow myths created by illiterate goat herders who think a deity impregnating a 13 year old virgin is worthy of worshiping. It was a "godly" act, so do you think it's okay to do the same?
Trivialities? You are saying it doesn't make any difference what language the 10-now whittled down to 8 according to you-Commandments makes no difference? Do you even know what language the now accepted New Testament was written in? Or that there actually was no person named Jesus Christ crucified on the cross?
Where did you get your ordination? Mail order?
You seem to have more insults than sense, but that's besides the point. The original New Testament was written in Greek, with portions written in Aramaic. There are museums where you can see copies of original manuscripts if you like. History records that there was a person named Jesus and the four gospels written by witnesses attest to His crucifixion.
Yes, you like to argue trivialities. What difference does the original language make? Can you speak it or read it? Can you prove Mary was 13? Even if she was, why is that sinful? Your grandparents or great grandparents likely married in their teens. Just because it isn't accepted today does not mean it's wrong. The Amish marry young. Some African villages marry while young.
I did not say the fourth Commandment was void. I merely mean that it does not have to be observed on a Saturday. What other Commandment did I say was not observed. Dietary laws are NOT a part of the Ten Commandments. Perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time trying to think up clever slurs.
I try to give you information and you give me insults and you consider yourself the better man? No wonder this world is in the condition it is.
Where did I insult you? The mail order thing? You didn't answer my question so how could that be an insult? Yes, I knew what language the NT was written in. I also know you have no proof of any record of "Jesus Christ" ever existing at all. Yoshua was the name the Hebrews knew him as and you should know this if you truly researched his supposed life.
But I'm sure you can point out some religious website which claims to prove his existence, your type always does. The Romans kept excellent records of criminals and others who came before their officials in legal matters. You should have no problem finding his name included in their records if he ever existed.
"History records that there was a person named Jesus and the four gospels written by witnesses attest to His crucifixion."
You might want to rethink the above statement, Don. The first Gospel was not written until 30 years after the alleged crucifixion of Yoshua. And if you haven't ever noticed before, the Gospels are qualified as being written "according to" the so called witnesses. Hearsay in other words. And let's hear the dates when the other three "eyewitness accounts" were first written, if you dare to give them here.
I did not say I thought myself the better man at all. These are your words, not mine. I am excited to see your historical records proving the existence of a man named Jesus Christ. If you can show me these I will apologize to you. If not, well, you're a man of god and will certainly do what is right.
Oh, and don't plan on using Josephus as your proof as his works were corrupted by the church hundreds of years later.
Jesus WAS real. There are over 50 historians who refer to him as real, both in our time and his. Some of them weren't/aren't even Christian, so it makes no sense that they'd keep up the so-called "lie of Jesus".
Please stop lying. There are 100% no contemporary references at all. I know your beliefs encourage lying, but really.
Historians in our time claiming the existence of Jesus does absolutely nothing to increase the historical record of his presence on earth.
Please list the sources that are contemporary (or nearly so) to Jesus that support his existence. These would be extra-biblical sources, not the scriptures.
I'm anxious to hear about these previously undiscovered sources!
While we do that, please provide proof of George Washington's existence. You cannot use any American-created documentation. Prove his existence and that the things he alleged to have done by using documents from other nations. Can prove he existed or that the image that we believe to be him really is him?. How can you prove that he was not a creation of the government to unite a nation. I'm not going as far as to say no one named George Washington ever existed. I'm saying prove he is the one the history books records existed. After all, history is written by the victors. The British may have a different version of George.
That has to be the weakest analogy I have seen for some time!
I'm in Australia, and if you have a big enough plane I could send you more proof that George Washington existed than you can store!
Jesus or god?
Sorry, only repeated rumours written by a bunch of sexist neurotic old goat herders, most of which isn't even included in the book anyway.
I would suggest you watch one of the many new science documentaries that disprove this stuff almost daily.
Let me apologize for my spiritual cohort. You have been nothing but respectful in your temperment here, and I appreciate that and honor you for it.
With that said, though you said the little details in the discussion of faith don't matter, only the big picture that there is a God that we must make our account to, the details are what make the argument compelling or not. You have not shared anything here that would be convincing evidence that your big picture proposition is plausible.
You state that original texts can be seen in museums, but this is not true at all. The only thing that we have are scribal copies that were the products of a verbal tradition finally committed to the written word and copied by untrained people that made numerous errors, both accidental and intentional, over centuries. The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. These details matter when evaluating the truth claims of scripture.
The minute you decide to drop dietary laws that are just as much a part of scripture as the ten commandments, you are starting the process of interpretation. You state the day of the week of the sabbath is unimportant, but scripture makes the day specific.
The details matter because the trustworthiness of the scriptures is the building block of the faith, or any faith for that matter. Unless what you believe is quite generic, and not necessarily tied in to Christ as the sacrifice for the salvation of the world, but just that there is a God worthy of our awe, then the details become very important.
Thanks for your comments, thebrucebeat. You are correct that what we have are copies of copies. Why should we trust those copies? Because I believe that God will protect His Word from error. That's part of His omnipotence. You say the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses. So, Matthew and John were not eyewitnesses? They may not have penned the words, but dictated them, I'm sure that still counts as an eyewitness account.
Dietary laws were not dropped by me, but by Paul in 1 Timothy 4:3-4. Yes, the Sabbath is to be observed on Saturday. New Testament Christian observed the Sabbath on Sunday to celebrate the Lord Resurrection which was believed to be on Sunday. Jesus taught the Pharisees that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. What that means is that God created a day of rest for man. He didn't create man to observe a day. Therefore, in the spirit of the law, the day is not important but the fact that we observe a day of rest is. After all, the Bible also says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life. Therefore, should we still be killings all murderers? What about adulterers and rapists? Doesn't the Levitical law say they should be put to death? Shouldn't the testimony of a mere two witnesses be enough to prove the guilt or innocence of any matter? Jesus taught that the Law was not as constrictive as people make it, especially in this Age of Grace.
You asked why should we believe the copies that have come down over the millenia? Your answer is that you believe.
That's fine, and I respect your right to do so. What it isn't is evidence. In spite of all the evidence that the scriptures would have to be saved by a miracle not to be hopelessly compromised by error and intentional manipulation, you choose the miracle. For those that don't share that inclination, this is not a compelling argument. You are saying we can trust it because you come to the issue already believing they have been protected and inspired. That isn't a reason for others to trust it.
Can you see the circular nature of your position?
Psycheskinner, you are very correct in your observation and I'd like to point out that most people only look at the surface of most things. A good example is that most doctors never get detailed enough in what they do to be truly a good doctor. 783,000 people die in America each year from iatrogenic problems (doctor induced illnesses). Most professionals take short cuts they learn or stumble on. Try and find a GOOD lawyer. lol. 99% of all lawyers give the rest a bad name. Alright, just had to get one joke in.
Seriously, the problem is priorities and balancing time within those priorities. The bible tells us GOD is everywhere and knows our thoughts and we can be very personal with GOD. That thought in of itself is truly mind boggling, but only if you limit GOD. We tend to cubicalize most everything because it is easier to deal with and remember things. When you open your being to ALL possibilities, it can be quite staggering and truly overwhelming to any thinking person.
One aspect of being human is to protect our turf, both physically and mentally. I'm truly amazed at how some people hang on to the idea that evolution is a fact and with a tiny bit of evidence build this huge theory that we all came from some primordial soup with water flowing over a rock and sunlight gave the energy to make over 20 proteins combine to form a single cell and then evolve into plants and animals on earth. That just boggles my mind that any intelligent person would buy into that. I've looked at the reasons and it always comes back to that person(s) need a reason to discount the creation by a GOD with all power to do so.
The bible says GOD simply "Spoke" all this into existence. To believe that, you need to believe GOD first exists and then is capable of such a thing. With all our science and knowledge, NO ONE has ever created a single cell in a laboratory under any circumstances from anything that resembles a primordial soup condition, ever. When we look around, there is all kinds of evidence that GOD created all this and many things happened quickly, exactly, and NO evidence exists where one "Kind" of plant or animal came from another Kind. There are over 400 species of dogs in the world, but they all came from a dog.
Each plant and each animal and ALL humans have a light energy within all of our cells that is the preeminent force that determines our health, our thoughts, and the very essence that initiates transcription of our DNA in all our cells. Each cell actually makes light, uses light to communicate with all the other cells within that organism, and stores light. When any living organism comes close to other organisms, there is a testing and challenge between those organisms to determine if the meeting is good or bad. This light energy is throughout the universe. When GOD met Moses, his encounter was described as a burning bush that was not consumed and a very intense light. So bright in fact, that his hair turned white and Moses could not look at it. There were no light bulbs, no artificial light anywhere in the world. Since we are formed in GOD's image, doesn't it seem feasible that GOD uses light to communicate in some way with us and that we are connected in this way with our creator? Darkness on the other hand, is the way evil is described in the bible and to be in hell is to be without GOD. Since the devil was an Angel created, he is NOT like GOD, but simply everything evil.
For me, this idea of light being the controlling force in our bodies is such a fantastic idea and all the more reason to believe there is a force I call GOD that is truly in control, but gives us all the light to use and choices to be part of this wonderful creation or to choose a life of darkness and separation from it. Reading the bible and understanding it becomes very important, but it is our priorities that we choose that determines our destiny.
Why dont you turn it into your first hub
(backing up nutritionexpert) In Deuteronomy (or is it Numbers?) Moses asks to literally see God face-to-face. God says this would be too powerful and says that he will simply pass by a cave in the Mountain and Moses should hide there and let His shadow fall on him. THE SHADOW OF GOD ALONE IS SO POWERFUL MOSES IS TEMPORARILY BLIND. When Moses was with God on Mount Sinai, (remember, not even actually WITH God, but talking to him) the Presence was so powerful Moses' face burned with intense light for the next few days. He had to wear a veil around his face so the Israelites weren't blinded. It's in the Bible, and it's true.
Also, I've asked countless atheists and one of the biggest responses about "where'd it all begin? Where'd the first atoms EVER com from?" is "no one knows." Atheists don't know what they believe.
Thank you for your post Jakob. To emphasize your statement that "Atheists don't know what they believe," it is so true. You see to believe NO GOD exists, you have to be incredibly arrogant. For anyone to think they know everything is absurd. So if you are an atheist, you have to believe you know everything to deny the existence of GOD because GOD could exist in the part of everything you know nothing about. The only other position you can take is that you are so arrogant that you believe you know everything and you did not find GOD anywhere.
Most atheist I know have not only denied the existence of GOD in their arrogance, but have set out to prove that by supporting anything that says "Man" is in control" and that there is nothing beyond what science can prove. Science is based on assumptions that we constantly find highly questionable in many cases. Take light for example, the speed of light is NOT a constant. 3 universities in the United States have shown in experiments that they slowed light down and then have actually stopped it. Another experiment showed light 300 times the typical speed we assume as a constant. We know speciation happens because it is observable and repeatable, but to ASSUME one "Kind" of organism can evolve into another kind is to assume speciation happens beyond the VARIATIONS we get within a species. That is absurd, ridiculous, and NOT a scientific proven thing whatsoever. Any fossil find has never proven that and in fact, deceit and lies have been the order of the day all in an effort to prove some stupid theory that we somehow evolved from some lower animal rather than GOD creating us.
Ah. Attacking atheists again. Is that what the bible says to do?
Fortunately - you are no longer allowed to burn us at the stake - so we are free to believe or disbelieve nonsense based on logic and reason instead of your palpable fear.
But we aren't free? That's what atheists I've met practically scream at my face. Christians r American citizens too, so we also have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The Bible says to convert others, and that's what we're trying to do. We want to show u and ur atheist friends God is real and ur beliefs make no sense. If u disagree, than TELL US where the first atoms ever came from. Where did they come from? Where did the first sparks of life come from. (Please actually tell me, don't just refer me to a website or something since then we assume u don't know).
Quite an incredible answer that proves my point about ARROGANCE of Atheists. Burning at the stake? Why would any Christian in today's world want to do that to anyone? I simply feel sorry for Atheists because their NON-belief system is absurd. How do you prove a negative? You call Christianity "Nonsense," on what basis do you say that? Do you have scientific proof for that statement that can be backed up by REAL science? I do NOT believe in GOD as a result of fear or intimidation or just because others do. I embrace the evidence and have a belief system that I challenge constantly in a loving way. I do NOT hate Atheist, I feel a lot of sorrow for them because they have closed their openness and exchanged their understanding of truth for assumptions based on ARROGANCE and the desire to prove a negative that is not provable, constantly searching for that unholy grail to prove their non-belief is valid. That my friend is hiding from the truth behind deceit and lies. For those people, I do NOT hate those people, I want them to be able to examine the facts that are real, not some bogus belief in evolution that has NO proof of truth, but only assumptions. If you do believe in evolution, please tell us all here how 20 proteins in a primordial soup could all join together using the sun as energy to form a single cell. Where is your proof? Do you know of any laboratory experiment showing this can even be possible? The only experiment I know of is one that produced 5% of 2 proteins in an environment free of oxygen and 95% toxic substances that destroyed the experiment. You obviously have a strong belief in your non-belief, but where are the facts proving your so called scientific reason for such a belief?
ARROGANCE of not believing garbage? OK
Your answer is simple "Non-descript, non committal, double talk with no substance relating to "Garbage?" Please create a response that addresses the issues and use your intelligence you say you have.
LOLO Wot issues am them? Your religion is garbage. Is that the issue?
So we are all just supposed to believe you that "Your religion is garbage?" Just like that? You are obviously really well educated: "Wot issues am them?" lol. We are all waiting for a specific, not some non-descript, non committal, double talk. Your name "Evolution Guy" seems to indicate you believe something, even though you claim to believe a NON-BELIEF. You are quick to call people names, but where is your proof?
I did not call you names. I said your beliefs and religion are nonsense and cause conflicts. You are the one that called atheists names.
My user name is an ironic version of all the religious users that come here to attack anyone who does not believe the nonsense they believe.
You do not "believe" scientific theories. They are simply the best explanations we have for the facts at hand. Do you "believe" in gravity - or is it just there? Do things just fall to the ground and you say goddunnit?
Show me your proof.
Boy are you wrong sir. I love science and have two degrees in scientific studies and many other accomplishments. You keep saying "Nonsense" and yet you give NO PROOF or scientific explanation of what you mean. That is just foolish talk with no substance. And we are just supposed to believe you because you say it?
What you call scientific theories are nothing more than fantasies based on assumptions. Gravity? Can you tell us all here what gravity is? I had dinner with the scientist at Cal Tech in California that took up where Einstein left off in his study of gravity and he could not give me a good explanation of what it is based on his understanding. So I guess it is "Just there." As long as you are asking questions, why is there not a lot of eroded soil in the ocean and why are the mountains not eroded away. Based on the erosion rate on earth today, the mountains should have been flat within 15 million years. Why have we not seen a star form? Why are there no more than about 30 super novas we know of if the universe is as old as some believe?
Please explain how the heart evolved in a human that requires 5 different mechanical things to all happen simultaneously along with 5 chemical things must happen simultaneously. Do you actually believe Steven Hawkins that everything came from nothing and all the trillions of stars formed from some dust clouds and defied Boyles gas law because of gravity? And then explain to us all here how a single cell formed from 20 different proteins that magically got together and got it's energy from the sun to do that from water running over a rock!
Are those the theories you are talking about? Please be specific instead of this non descript, non committal, double talk you keep throwing out. I'm beginning to question your intelligence here.
Golly gosh. You really think I would waste my time doing that when you have already rejected science all as "just a theory,"?
Your religion and beliefs are nonsense and the Christian religion has a long history of causing conflicts. Whether or not I can satisfactorily educate you about science (unlikely) does not change that.
What difference does it make that you do not understand what a scientific theory means? None.
What difference does it make that you could not understand the general theory of relativity? None at all.
What difference does it make that I cannot explain how life first formed on earth? None at all.
What difference does it make that you reject all science as nonsense? None.
Why would I bother trying to explain geology to you? You already rejected it.
None of this changes the fact that your beliefs are nonsense with 100% no evidence and cause constant conflicts. Nor does it make your majik super daddy the default position - does it?
Why attack science as a defense of your irrational, nonsensical beliefs? This is what religionists have done throughout history. Why not learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes as previous generations of religious zealots?
I feel sorry for you because you obviously have no education and are relying on things you've heard other people say because your knowledge of history, geology, and science in general is certainly not based on education. You refuse to make an intelligent argument, but keep referring to religion as irrational, nonsensical beliefs but have NO PROOF, NO BASIS for that argument. Just saying it does not make it so. Im going to ask you one more time to give us proof and specific arguments that back up what you are saying, not some diatribe about what you believe. I don't need you to explain geology or science to me, I'm well grounded in those subjects and can discuss any issue intelligently with anyone. I can see that you have NOT studied the bible or have any understanding of Christianity and most likely are afraid to delve into that realm out of fear you may be wrong.
"What difference does it make that you cannot explain how life first formed on earth?" Because that is the basis, the essense of all your belief system in evolution. If you can't give an explanation of what you believe, you are basing your belief on a fantasy, not reality or truth. You are assuming something just happened with no facts, no substance to your belief. That is foolish and very childish and how children look at fairy tales.
Maybe, just maybe you need to re-evaluate your beliefs and look deep into yourself and consider that you do not know everything and in that of which you know nothing, GOD may be there looking for you.
Nonsense. How life formed in the first instance has utterly nothing to do with the FACTS that we have that show life evolved and is not the basis for the theory of evolution.
Please stop calling me names. I know that your bible says to attack anyone who does not believe the rubbish you believe, but still...
Still waiting for some proof that god did majik a few thousand years ago.
I can accept that I do not know how life first formed. You cannot so you lie and say you know in order to claim some authority. This is the reason your religion causes so many conflicts.
Gee I wonder who I should listen to.... Steven Hawkins or a poster on a religious thread with no profile. mmmmmmmmmm let me consider this for a milli-second.
He is fantastic a re-wording the nonsense from answers in genesis though. He doesn't even understand basic geology or biology and claims two bible-science degrees. Wonder where he got them?
There is a bible science degree?
That is a fascinating combination.
He has some friends here then.
Two other religious followers on the forums believe that science and religion are the same thing.
http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/06/23/a-b … -bullshit/
There is a "college" in California that does them. $25k a pop.
Liars for Jesus (TM)
We are seeing a lot of qualifications here of late. We have a Doctor or two now I see.
I know you have a sound education Mark, but aren't we both a bit under-qualified to be commenting on religion when there are so many degrees on the opposition team?
One of them is a Doctor of naturopathy I believe.
Do you have any degrees or doctorates you can brag on? I'm a bit light on myself.
I was awarded a degree in Evolution in Las Vegas by the REAL Elvis some years ago. It is on my profile.
Hard to argue with those sort of qualifications - yet still they cast aspersions on my intelligence and education.
Alright guy, I'm tired of listening to your empty rhetoric, let's get down to some specific facts here. You say you believe in evolution and I understand that you actually may be delusional enough to believe that, but I truly don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. So to clear things up here, please tell me what part of evolution you believe. There are about 6 different levels of evolution that are required for you to tell us what you actually believe. You have said you have NO CLUE how life started on earth and do NOT have any ability to give us any facts that show you have ANY ideas of how that could have happened. This only shows more of your ignorance on the subject, but so be it. Please choose (by number if you wish) which of the following parts of evolution you believe:
1 Cosmic evolution is the origin of time, space, and matter, i.e. the big bang
2 Chemical evolution is the origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3 Stellar and Planetary evolution origin of stars and planets.
4 Organic evolution is the origin of life
5 Macro evolution is the changing from one kind into another
6 Micro Evolution are the variations within kinds.
I suggest Earnest Shub do the same exercise since he seems to want to jump in on your train heading for the TERMINAL almost as fast as you.
Make a commitment here instead of the very childish diatribes of generalizations that just shows your ignorance.
Please stop attacking me personally. I know this is what your faith teaches you to do, but still - it does not seem a very "Christian" thing to do.
I am not interested in educating you - you have made it clear that you reject all scientific knowledge. Except the knowledge that allows us to use a computer.
I know you do not understand evolution, and this is hardly the place to teach you basic biology and geology. So what if you don't believe a scientific theory that explains all the FACTS and EVIDENCE we have that show a gradual evolution of all life on earth? Why is your majikal being the default position?
Please stop lying at me as well. I know this is what Jesus teaches you to do but Organic evolution is not the origin of life. Biological evolution explains the diversity of life and how humans came to exist. It does not explain the origin of life.
Which church did you get your science degrees from?
Where is your proof for your Invisible God?
What church degrees are you talking about? That is not only bizzare question, but completely out of left field! I do NOT have any church degrees, but i do have a college degree in Biology & Chemistry and extensive studies in nutrition and the field of energetics as they relate to building structures and living organisms. You seem to have some belief in the evolution fantasy that defies the 2nd law of thermodynamics where everything deteriorates (paraphrased).
So you won't answer my direct question to you about what part of evolution do you believe, only that you have no clue how life started on earth and are waiting for that magic to appear in some experiment using a good scientific method to show how it happened. Well, guess what "GUY," every experiment to date has failed miserably and so bad, in fact, it showed it can't have happened by accident the way some are trying to defend where a single cell magically appeared out of water running over a rock with sunlight shinning on it and 20 proteins magically got together and created that cell that somehow magically divided and created another cell and then all the life on earth, including you, came from that rock. If that isn't a bunch of nonsense far exceeding any belief in GOD as our creator, I can't even imagine what would be more ridiculous.
Can you explain with your pea brain intelligence why Chemical evolution that is attempting to be promoted by evolutionists where the origin of higher elements from hydrogen cannot ever get beyond lead forming? Could this be why gold cannot be created using our most advanced chemical manipulation? With Trillions of stars, do you actually believe that all of them have the same chemicals & structures as we have on earth? How could that happen if it weren't the same creator that made it all?
Come on "GUY," you claim to be this great evolutionist, explain these things or is it just a belief you have that is nothing more than a religious belief, NOT REAL SCIENCE maybe?
You never answered my question regarding the 6 evolutionist's basic beliefs. Don't you want to at least sound intelligent and well studied. It's easy to say you do NOT believe in GOD and it's easy to say you believe in evolution, but when I asked specific questions, you ignore them. That is a sign of complete ignorance.
I am not calling you names, by the way, it is called pointing out inconsistencies in your arguments. The term "Ignorance" for example is the lack of knowledge, not a name calling exercise. If you are ignorant, that is a fact. If you have some intelligent arguments on a subject, then I will respect that, but to just say Christians believe in nonsense is a complete nonsequitor and just a stupid remark with no substance.
On one hand you claim your beliefs are scientifically based and then you say you do not know how life was first formed, but believe evolution is fact. What a pile of foolishness that is. Because you do not believe in GOD and do not accept that he could have created all this or even exists, you accept some foolish theory that life came into being and with NO scientific basis whatsoever to back up your belief? Then you criticize Christians for believing there is a GOD and he created all this. At least Christians have the biblical account of creation that is backed by all kinds of SCIENTIFIC evidence. I believe there was a flood about 4,500 years ago. Do YOU? We know that there are NO deserts older than about 4,000 years. NO trees older than about 4,000 years. The amount of erosion from mountains only indicates a few thousand years of erosion deposits on the ocean floor. Noah's ark was discovered and you can even go visit it right where the bible said it stopped. The size of the ark is about 3 times the size of what it needed to be to house all the animals. We know that before the flood by way of examining amber bubbles from early site digs that the earth had about 35% oxygen levels and after the flood, it reduced to about 21% now. We know that dinosaurs nostrils were the size of modern day horses and in 21% oxygen levels, there is no way those large animals could live. We know that the earth has lost about 40% of it's magnetic field in the last several thousand years. We do NOT have ANY evidence of any reversal of this field, only reduction. Please show me where anything I have said is not true. Now, let's see your evidence!
This is why I started following you. Would you mind if I copied and pasted that reply onto another online arguement I've been having with an atheist who seems to be Evolution Guy's twin (but who can also spell correctly)?
No problem. You need to have any person that believes in evolution to fully explain what they actually believe. Christians and most scientists have NO problem believing in SPECIATION or a variation within any given species. It is typical for evolutionist to use examples of speciation as evidence for the more impossible thing such as humans and apes came from one animal, but there is absolutely NO PROOF of this; none whatsoever. In fact, humans have 46 chromosomes and one species of apes have 48. For that to happen, it would take something far more miraculous than a mutation. Look what happened to Dolly, the cloned sheep. She developed all kinds of illnesses and problems and lived a veyr short life and that was using the SAME chromosome set. These guys are living in a fantasy world that believe this garbage. They are bent on proving there is NO GOD and will use anything they can muster up to create more fantasy. Where's the proof? Even if one of these guys could come up with a fossil that appeared to be an intermediary of some kind, how does anyone know it reproduced and reproduced with what, a mutant with the same changed characteristics? The logic of these guys is really amazing.
These atheists are all guilty of what they consider christians do.. and thats just speaking things they have heard without really knowing. I do hope evo guy didnt stab his bum, backing out the door like he did.
Ya ask these guys for proof but clearly i see that they have none. They don't even frantically run around on the web trying to get evidence.
I liked the point you said when they fear to delve into areas of their own belief because they might find out they are believing the lie. Sometimes i believe they are all just tossers.
Ah - atheists are tossers? Is that in the bible? Is that why you attack them?
You are right that both sides tend to do this.
I am guessing you have read nothing by Bart Ehrmann. He is the head of the Dept. of Religion at UNC, and has written great books regarding biblical origins, errors and contradictions that are important reading for anyone that wants to claim the inerrancy of scripture. Do you avoid this kind of reading? How would it threaten you if you pursue only the truth?
Atheism also comes to a dead end when it comes to origins, but this dead end does nothing to lead to a specific acknowledgement of the nature of God.
Proofs are unavailable to either side, and leads us back to the Hebrews verse regarding faith being the only proof available. For you it is enough, including your faith in your "personal relationship". For others it is woefully lacking.
By the way, the word is "losers".
Atheism does no such thing. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god. Nothing else. Most atheists are far more honest and will say "I don't know how life started on earth," but science is pretty certain a god is not necessary. Once it can be replicated in a laboratory, we will know one possible start to life. For all we know, there may be several possibilities that work.
Catholic church is the only institution in the civilized world that discriminate women. The church heads say that women can only be priets if God wants... Really?! Does anyone buys this?!!
God is good, he is all knowing and in control of everything.
I was thinking the other day about PRIDE it is funny you mentioned it but I know I have been guilty of the son of PRIDE, anyway say a prayer for me and my family tonight Thanks for the question
Yes, pride is one of the things I actually MOST worry about. It's what brought down Lucifer, Thutmosis III (the Pharaoh from Moses' time), many Biblical characters and many historical ones. It's definitely a VERY bad sin (not that there's any good sin ) and is very powerful, so it's something I believe everyone with common sense should be afraid of. Ur in my prayers, God bless.
I have noticed that at least some people who ostensibly base their morality on the Bible know surprisingly little about is, any version of it.
I was thinking about this when I saw some recent data that the more people eat meat the less they care about how safely or humanely it is produced.
Maybe if you just assume something is good, you are less curious about it?
? Can u repeat that first sentence? I think u mighta left a few words out or something...
I fixed it.
As a person who read the Bible a couple of times and is alive and conscious in a Judeo-Christian culture I know the gist of a lot of what the Bible says (since moving to the US, a lot lore about the King James specifically).
No, I couldn't quote it at length without looking it up, nor a lot of books. But I have a working knowledge of the lot of the sections used most often to explain political and personal ethical behavior.
But many times (and I mean *many* times) I have got into a discussion to try and work out where someone I am trying to influence is coming from (I am a professional advocate for several social issues) and discovered the don't even know where it is coming from and can't find in their bible what they thought was there--or have a really weird interpretation.
Now this is obviously not always the case, or even most of the time. But surprisingly often.
This is not about being a parrot, it is about getting the basic Cliff Notes ideas and having some idea where the document literally came from and was written and standardized into the current received text.
I agree. Some Christians just hardly ever read their Bible, and that's very disturbing as it keeps them from knowing at least some of the most basic things about the Holy Book! To Christians reading this, the Bible is a book to be read (that's why God gave it), not a desk ornament that comes along with your religion.
Nobody knows the entire bible front to back without assuming some things. I believe religion has more to do with the heart and not so much quoting every scripture perfectly. God knows our hearts, our thoughts and what we are really up to. Some people just quote scriptures for the wrong reasons, for self image instead of helping and doing it for the right reasons. As long as your heart has the right intentions you can do no wrong, God will help you
I don't think this thread was mean to be yet another god exists/no he doesn't thing. We kind of already have plenty of those.
More about those who believe, or are just interested in this belief system, expanding what they know...?
Whether you have faith or not, I think understanding the tenants of a faith is a useful thing.
Aww. So no one should Kwestion it ?
How sad that people Kwestion it.
1) As I have clearly stated on many occasions including in this thread, I am an atheist. If we whipped out out respective atheisms I suspect mine would be bigger than yours.
2) As I have clearly stated, it would be nice of threads were allowed to remain on topic at least for the first 5 pages or so. I find that no matter what a thread is about after 3 pages it is about opposing zealots insulting each other and anyone else who wanders by. These threads might be more productive if you read them before jumping in and stomping on anyone expressing a faith-based position.
OP offered to talk about the Bible and Christianity. I would like to do that. Please.
I did. I pointed out that it causes wars and conflicts.
I don't understand how that is in response to me at all?
You "did" what? Did I ask you to? Context?
You think this thread is about... um, what is bad about religion?
OP offered to answer questions. That doesn't even look like a question, let alone a relevant one.
And the question was? And then he said evolution was garbage, therefore there is a god because he had eliminated all other possibilities.
LOLOLOL Didn't bother reading the thread huh? OK
Process of elimanashun?
Boy 1: Mo-ooom! He punched me,
Boy 2: Mo-ooooom!! He punched me first.
Boy 1: Mo-ooooooooom!! He punched me harder.
Wow - you got the moral high ground then. Sure you int a beleeber?
Personally I find proselytizing atheists to be sad. As with Evangelizing Christians it suggests an active hostility to natural human diversity. But at least the Christians think they are saving you from hell or some such, not just being contrary as a hobby.
Sure. Well done. How good of you.
U sure u int a beleeber? Maybe if we left them alone the world would be a perfect place? LOLOLOLOLO
No Konflikt. As long as we all get with the program? LOLOLOLOLOL
Yes I'm sure. I see you can't even be rational enough to consider I have a non-faith based objection to how are behaving. So I give up. If I want to talk to someone incapable or rational discourse, well, my dog is better company.
EG is recovering from a mortal wound
his faith in atheism was completely owned by a beleeber.
when he gets flustered he forgets how to spell too
Sir, do u have meds ur supposed to be taking (but rnt)? psycheskinner's right. Being contradictive is ur hobby, and it just shows how good a person u r.
This is fun. We should hang out and do this everyday ...
oh yeah, we do
Alright Jakob. I'll ask you, although I doubt you can answer the question. What is it with christians? You all read the Bible and decide what you are going to get out of it, and than go out to preach your own interpretation.
How come you guys can't see that you aren't preaching 'truth' but simply interpretation?
Also. I get the distinct impression that part of the argument is grounded in the belief that you are defending your god. How come you guys claim he's all powerful, but apparently not powerful enough to put his two cents worth into the debate on his own?
How come you guys are so quick to complain that other christians don't get it? How do you, or any christian, know you've found an answer and everyone else is wrong?
In answer to your first question, Christians don't each have their own interpretation. Then every single Christian in the world would have there own church. I only preach what my Bible says: if it isn't in there, I'm not gonna tell someone it is. I understand many of the basic principles of the Bible, and these are principles all church denominations share (i.e. salvation, Trinity, Faith, Forgiveness, etc.). I have read the entire Bible, but while I won't quote the entire book of Leviticus of the top of my head (as surprisingly some think you should be able to do if you're a Christian) I know all the basic principles, as I said above. (I said all that to also clear it up for some of the other atheists on here).
If God debated and did all his battles, it would be much too easy for everyone to know he's real, since he wouldn't be testing everyone's faith. Jesus said, "Great are you who see and believe, but greater are those who don't see but still believe." (That's not a direct quote, I might've gotten two or three words wrong, however, that's basically what he said) So basically, God's having us fight the battle so that the ones that don't actually believe in him will crumble. "The sheep will be scattered," said Isaiah.
I try not to complain unless it's justified. "Judge not lest you be judged."
Bravo, Emile! Excellent questions.
As a Christian, I know that I know very little, even though my maternal grandfather was a Southern Baptist minister, my father a non-denominational minister, and I've been at it for something like 55+ years, studying the Bible, Bhagavad Gita, Buddhism, Taoism and a lot more.
God is all-powerful, but it would defeat the purpose for Him to intervene in every little philosophical debate. The goal is for us to awaken. Having Him step in only plays to our egos which only closes the door more tightly.
Brilliant point on interpretation. All of it is interpretation and likely none of it is right, not even mine. But I'm trying -- applying the tools of science (restraint, not skepticism) -- logic and reason. I've made some small progress, I think. It has borne fruit, so to speak, but still it's biased interpretation.
I'm far from walking on water, but I've done a few minor miracles. And yes, knowing as much as I do about logic, mathematics and science, these are statistical anomalies of the major kind. But ego loves it so much for me to talk about it. For that reason, it was hard to start talking about these things. But value is to be had from discussing these things. For one, others who are looking for inspiration can know that true faith and miracles do exist. For myself, I'm actually getting a better look at my own ego as I discuss these things with skeptics and believers, alike. Some skeptics probably stroke their egos on this, and that I regret, for their sakes, but ego is their choice.
There's a whole lot more under the hood (in the Bible) than most Jews or Christians appreciate, including myself. Interpretation is crucial, and most, if not all, get it wrong. That's why the great teacher admonished us to have humility, just the same kind that good scientists use when exploring the other side of the universe -- the realm of continuity (space-time, energy-matter).
What miracles have you done? (And also, you should probly give more glory to God, since he's the one actually doing it)
Hi lone star. I am continually impressed with your even tempered and intelligent approach to your religion. Thanks for addressing my questions without immediately taking offense. This doesn't happen often with the religious. Which I find increasingly strange. I always thought the first business of religion was meant to teach inner peace and tolerance.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I always get a kick out of it when people of faith try to "prove" that their God is the solemn truth, and believe it can be proved somehow, when their own scriptures say that the only proof available is faith itself. God can not be proven, nor can God be disproven by rational inquiry, as God stands outside the temporal world, if He stands at all. The militants on both sides are facing a hopeless task in trying to "prove" the existence or lack thereof in regards to a deity. Both sides will feel the undeserved swelling of the most determined of sins.
You are right, God cannot be proven logically or empirically. When Adam and Eve walked with God, it was assumed that they knew He existed. So why would they need to prove Him. Just because you can't prove Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist. To those who have faith, His works prove HIs existence. His Spirit working in the lives of those who have been change prove His existence. His Word, written long ago of things happening now, prove His existence. The only ones who don't see that are those that choose not to.
I have only one question, Why don't you have faith in Zeus or krishna or Abrakadabra?[The words that prophesied the coming of Krishna was written long before any of the biblical gods!!]
The world might be "created" by any one of these.........
The only ones who don't see do not choose not to see something that is there. You just finished telling us there is nothing logical or empirical, which means there is nothing to see. Then you start spouting that you see something that we choose not to see?
You do realize this makes no sense - right?
No, He don't. You will understand(how he feels), if you have ever seen a psychotic(delusional) patient.
Yes - I know. I don't really get why these people are not locked up for their own (and our) safety. If I went about "witnessing," that I saw aliens standing next to him and if he did not believe me, they would punish him - pretty sure I would be.
Hmmmm. So Adam and Eve personally conversed with the all powerful deity and still disobeyed him. They knew god existed but still had the nerve to go against his word.
And you expect those who've never met the deity to do differently? Even Moses got snippy with god and was prohibited from entering the promised land.
The point is, it seems those who have actually conversed with your god had a certain amount of disrespect for the deity. Can you explain why this was so?
Certainly, the same reason people get snippy with their parents or their bosses. They are human. People get angry. People sass. People disobey. Don't you see people back talking police and judges? Adam and Eve were deceived and they disobeyed. Because of their sin, which we inherited, we can lack respect for those in authority, regardless of who they are.
Being sassy to humans is one thing. Being sassy to an all powerful being is something else. How often do you sass god?
Sorry, like other parts of the novel, this makes no sense whatsoever. You act as if your god didn't know Eve would succumb to the serpents temptation. Either he did already know it would happen and it was a set up, or he isn't as all-knowing as the novel claims. Which is it, PD?
But, still you go right on spouting all this activity about what you, yourself, have deemed unprovable.
To prove that they were not in a chemically unbalanced state...just for starters.
Of course, you will have to give the same license to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Pink Unicorn, and all other gods, and imaginary creatures and places and things into infinity.
Or are you going to be practical, and use your common sense to discern what is actually real, and what is imaginary nonsense?
Instead of "faith" you should use the word "delusion...then it reads so much more accurately: "To those who have delusion, His works prove His existence."
That is conjecture, and complete nonsense.
You mean those of us who no longer believe in childish fairytales...or who are not delusional. It seems that the ones who believe in this nonsense are the ones making the choice.
Sorry, I used a Christian term. I should have said, "The only ones who don't believe after all that evidence are those that choose not to".
Of course I have. You are asked to go out and share the Good News as it has been revealed to you. What you can't do is share it as proven fact. You can share your faith and hope to be persuasive and convicting, no more and no less.
Who says you can't? So far you have one verse in Hebrews that doesn't even say faith is the ONLY evidence. Ever think of that?
Again, you are correct. We are to share our faith. The persuading and convincing is God's job. 2 Corinthians 5:20 says, "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." No one can come to God unless He draws them (John 6:44).
Oh! So its ultimately the fault of jesus himself?
He choose to call someone and ignore others.
Can you explain, why you are chosen, but not the millions of people before him, nor the millions who has never heard of him?
God calls all. Some respond but most do not. You might ask how does He call? He calls through nature. Creation declares that there is a Creator and if people would respond to that, then He would reveal more. That's what we call the general call. Specific calls, calls for people to ministry, are given to those who have acknowledged that they have not lived up to His standards, ask for forgiveness, and receives His pardon based on Christ's sacrifice.
You are correct. We are only to give witness, the persuading and convincing is God's part, according to 2 Corinthians 5:20. I think too many Christians put too much upon themselves when they think it is their responsibility to convert someone. Only God can convert (John 6:44).
Well, that would make our score 1-0! You have provided no proof, nor are you likely to. If proof was possible, faith would be unnecessary.
I kno this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I'm the author, so I guess it's okay... I scrolled up and down on here really fast and it looks like a snake. Just saying...
The problem with the atheists is, besides their great commission to unceasingly mock everything told to them, is, that they never say:
"oh that is a good point" or "that makes sense" or "hmmm. I'll have to check that out".
They are in the business of misinformation. Even if something does appeal to them they quickly have to shun it because they might have to face something they arrogantly cannot face - the position of them being wrong - and if they ever encounter that position they might have to back down and start believing.
That is because the things you say do not make sense and many of us have checked them out.
But it does make sense for atoms to generate out of no where and then reproduce more and more atoms until you have a solar system, life to just "appear" in a cell, said "cell" to all of a sudden have another cell that joins it, have all that happen a billion times until you have a bug, have that bug grow scales and flippers and be a fish, have that fish turn its flippers into claws and become (after a while, of course) a gigantic rampaging Tyrannosaurus Rex, which then grows feathers and turns into the world's biggest pigeon as its dino-children die out due to the asteroid that hit Earth and caused dust to block out the Sun (which of course caused all plants on Earth to die, but don't worry, even tho u say it's impossible, they got better! The dinos, however, didn't get better. :*( ). Said "chicken" then proceeds to give birth to three rats. Only two of them grow hands on their feet and become monkeys (sorry little rat who doesn't get to be a monkey for some reason), and these monkeys get REALLY BIG. Then one monkey decides he's going to shave off his fur and be a Neanderthal, who of course has a Modern Man who's the same age for his best friend (even tho according to you, Modern Man is Neanderthal's son). The Ice Age comes and, look at that, the Neanderthal dies. But not his best friend Modern Man, because he missed the Ice Age to go to his son Technological Man's 3rd grade science fair (of course the kid's project, a bunch of popsickle sticks glued to a ball, becomes the head exibit in an art gallery before being promoted as a new species). None of that's impossible or nonsense, right? You say it isn't.
This type of post does you a great deal of damage. It shows you have no real idea of the concepts that are the building blocks of evolutionary theory. They make you look silly.
Yes, I've read them. You have proved nothing. If you think you have, your burden of proof is far lower than most people's.
So you don't think any of my process of elimination proves God? Did you miss me talking about narrowing down religions and beliefs to make it clear?Atheism makes no sense, hence why there must be a God because of the incredible proofs atheism is wrong. Polytheism is proved false many times, so that narrows the list of possibly true religions down to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Islam comes from Christianity which comes from Judaism, so Judaism must be true, at least in part. Christ fulfilled all the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah, so Christianity is true now. Islam is, however, proved false by its differences from even basic Christianity, its additions (made to fit typical standards that already existed in the Mesopotamic region), and by Bible verses that DICTATE the falsehood of any addition or change to the Bible. Christianity alone remains as ure truth, so basically, as long as you keep all this in mind, all I have to do is disprove Atheism to show someone Christianity is true.
If you think this post of yours actually proves something, your ability to parse an argument logically is severely flawed.
The moment you use the Bible dictating what is true, you have caught yourself on a hamster wheel.
If your proof of God is based on what the Bible says, you have to prove why you feel the Bible is to be trusted as a source of accurate information. Your argument will of course be that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and now you have started on your never ending spin around the rodent's vision of reason. God is proven because the Bible tells us so, and you can believe the Bible because God breathed it into existence.
"Round and round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows!"
You forget about personal relationship and that is the kicker. Because of personal relationship with God the bible automatically becomes amazing and through that relationship and amazement the bible becomes the christians number one source of information, faith and success in spiritual matters - its a terrific help.
You cannot deny what you haven't experienced. Fools do that. And if you haven't got a personal relationship with God then the track you are on is the wrong one.
Good luck with this.
And where do "personal relationships," with Invisible Beings belong?
Exactly - in your head.
I think I'm wasting my time attempting to educate you at all..
You seem not to have any input except to tell others "your wrong!"...
Sarcastic responses do not make you look smart. Nor do they make the previous poster look wrong.
They simply show you lack anything of value to add to the discussion.
Vector 7, you are very correct in your evaluation of guys, especially this "Evolution Guy" that is obviously illiterate; just look at his spelling and English he uses in his answers and also his non-descript, non committal double talk he constantly uses by insulting the messenger and never states any facts that have any credibility, only criticism with no substance or facts to back them up.
He claims to be an Atheist, but does not acknowledge to be an Atheist he has to be very ARROGANT as ALL Atheists do to have the NON-BELIEF they do. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove a NON-BELIEF, so they dance around the idea that Christians believe in GOD as a person that believes in spaghetti monsters, etc. Yet, for an Atheist to be truly an Atheist, they have to believe they know everything, otherwise, GOD just may be in a part of the universe they know nothing about. So to believe GOD does not exist, they have to believe they know everything and that is complete, total ARROGANCE. To believe there is NO GOD, is far more difficult than accepting the many things Christians have in front of us that allows us to believe there is a GOD. Atheist say they use SCIENCE as their basis for the NON-BELIEFS, but when you get down to the facts of science they claim as their proof, it all falls apart.
What really is amazing is that most of the scientists that provided us with some very basic scientific discoveries were a majority of believers in GOD, not the other way around. Even Stephen Hawkins that does not believe in GOD in what appears to be his last gasp of air on earth seems and last desperate attempt at proving GOD has nothing to do with creation is telling us that EVERYTHING came from NOTHING and that gravity, that he cannot explain, overcame things like Boyles gas law to create trillions of stars from all this nothing. If that is not some kind of quirky religious belief, I don't know what is. It certainly is NOT science, just because he says it, does not make it so. It is far easier to believe GOD spoke all this into existence and that GOD is not limited as man is in only being able to understand 3 dimensions. We still don't know what light is, but we know now that light is created in every cell of the human body and all living things, all living things use light to communicate with every cell in the organism and the outside world, and stores light. In all the bible, light is associated with GOD and darkness with evil. When GOD appeared to Moses, he did so in a burning bush that was not consumed and the light was so intense, Moses could not look upon it. We know that light is NOT a constant as Einstein believed and created his theories based on it being a constant. So was Einstein wrong? What does science say about that?
For Atheists to say Christians do not believe in science or like science is ludicrous and just a very stupid statement. I love science, but pure science that uses a good scientific method of proofs and repeatability of experiments, etc., but this pseudoscience being used by evolutionists is just stupid assumptions and deceit, and a sham. Atheists like to hang onto the idea of evolution, but when you ask them as I have here constantly, to define what they mean, they fall apart like a bad domino game. Most of them, especially this "Evolution Guy" have no clue what they believe, only that they "Don't believe" and that Christians are not intelligent. What a bunch of nonsense. I wonder, does he believe all the scientists that have created many of the scientific achievements that are believer's in GOD are not intelligent?
I have asked that guy to give us facts and all we get is ridiculous diatribes about how he "Believes" Christians to not be credible somehow.
Keep posting here, we need intelligent people contributing.
The discussion was about proof, not whether I shall be saved or not. I am a former ordained minister and you will not bring alot to the table with me that I have not either read, written or preached.
The "personal relationship" can not be proved nor can it be used to prove the existence of the other party to your intimate relationship. Your comment was not particularly relevant to the discussion that we were having about being able to prove either side of the great divide, meaning the existence or lack of same of God.
You have gotten onto a rant and are applying it randomly to posts that aren't related to your push back against atheism.
What makes you call it a "push back" against atheism. The bible is pretty clear on atheists and for many years - non believing was - if not illegal and carrying a death penalty - frowned upon. I was thrashed at school for refusing to say it was anything but nonsense.
Cousin yochanan rants all the time. You will not get any sense from him.
There's an old story about a preacher who, as the people were running from the fires of Soddom and Gommorah, continued to preach as they ran by. One stopped and cried to the holy man, "What are you doing? Don't you know you can't change the people of Soddom and Gommorah?" The preacher calmly replied "I'm preaching so the people of Soddom and Gommorah don't change me."
This is why I respond to people like this brother.
Evolution guy & earnest shub,
You both have such a distorted view of the bible and what it says, it is obvious you have NOT studied it, but taken clips from portions of it and fit it to your beliefs instead of understanding the BIG picture. There are plenty of ignorant sites on the web that contain lots of issues with the bible, but those are obviously people who have not studied it because the arguments and diatribes on them just show their ignorance. Are you aware that hundreds of people contributed to the bible. That is unheard of in any literature I know of except the bible. Try and get just two people that agree on anything let alone hundreds to put together any text that has hundreds of prophecies that have come true and a consistency of story, etc. A great example of this is when they found Noah's ark, it was where the bible described it would be, the size matches, and they found lots of artifacts such as cross beams, antler & animal dung that could not have ever been in that region of the world. You, personally, could go there and examine the artifacts, look at the site and make your own determination as to whether you accept it or not.
I'd like for you to tell us how you, as an evolutionist, know they date the fossils? How do they date the layers of the earth? Let's hear some facts instead of your continuous diatribes about how you view Christians. You continually keep from giving us ANY facts, just rhetoric and meaningless, childish logic that defies all reason and intelligence. Let's see your SCIENTIFIC PROOF of what you are saying you believe. Stop with the very silly statements about how you are so scientific and only believe what is scientific. That is total nonsense.
So... r u trying to convert me to Atheism? Thought u were Christian.
Not trying to convert you to anything. Just pointing out the problem with your "proof". It is circular reasoning, and shows your lack of skill in the realm of logic.
Don't think I claimed to be a Christian or an atheist or anything else. You have made assumptions that also show a lack of intellectual discipline.
Didn't u say u were Christian somewhere. I remember it.
I'd love to know what proof would be needed for not believing in the flying pink elephant god?
Would I need to study more?
Because no one actually believes he exists, he has no religious text, and he has not revealed himself to us in any way.
So the same as the quoran or the bible then. No proof except the "proof" it provides about itself.
That is a helluva lot less proof than any theory I have ever seen that was sans religious myth.
I have a religious text that says the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists and many people believe this because they have been touched by his Noodly Appendage.
Please prove this wrong.
I accept that many people may have seen or been touched by such a monster, but I do not see evidence of this other than someone telling us they have done so. So far, evolution has not been proven to be true under any good scientific analysis. Speciation has been proven to happen and we all can see that, scientifically prove that it happens, and show experiments with good scientific methods to repeat it. There are over 400 species of dogs. The reality is that all the dogs came from dogs. So if you want to call that evolution, then I think you will see most of the world, including Christians will believe it is true, as I do. But, when you expand that truth to humans coming from one animal that gave rise to apes, etc., then you have NO proof, NO scientific evidence, NO basis for saying that is true and if you believe that, you have a religious belief, NOT a scientific basis for believing it. When you examine the evidence, you will see what i and so many others are seeing, evolution beyond speciation is bunk. The way genetics work and your DNA is structured, it is impossible to have anything beyond speciation, or as I and many others prefer to call it, variations within a species.
Everything is deteriorating and breaking down. Arrogance of man believing he can change the way GOD made things and make them better has proven disastrous. Look at genetic engineering to see how bad science is destroying our biodiversity and failing everywhere in the world. A bug that has not been a problem has turned into a super bug that is destroying GMO crops and threatening to destroy plants and animals now on soy & corn. Here is a great video for you to watch to get an education on how BAD SCIENCE has created this:
I know Jeffrey Smith personally and am working with his organization to educate people on this lunacy.
GOD created a perfect earth and to think or even imagine that evolution that uses death as it's justification for survival of the fittest is such a farce. GOD created this earth out of love and gave man the ability to choose his own way. You, like anyone has the right to choose a flying spaghetti monster as your GOD if you choose, but personally, even though it is possible, I see no evidence whatsoever and choose not to believe it is true, even though it is possible.
The flying pink elephant came to me earnest. It said it doesnt want us to think of it as a god, it just wants to be our friend.
Proving a negative is not possible as you most likely have discovered about proving atheism. To prove a negative about anything, you first have to know everything and I think even you will admit you don't know everything. Atheist are very ARROGANT to even claim there is NO GOD because to do that, you have to assume you know everything, otherwise GOD could be in or part of everything you do not know anything about. So a flying pink elephant could exist, but I see no evidence anywhere, including foot prints, photos, prophecies the elephant made that came true, writings from several hundred people that saw the elephant or knew anything about it. Don't see ANY evidence whatsoever, but I'm not so arrogant as to not believe it is possible.
Can you explain how several hundred people were able to create writings over a few hundred years that all created a coherent piece of literature that describes many views from different angles. I know of NO piece of literature that does that other than the bible. In fact, if you will notice, cults and all other religions have one author like Joseph Smith (Mormons), Mohammad (Islam), etc. I think you really need to study the bible with true scholars and learn what it's all about before believing in NON-BELIEFS and bad science.
Actually, the above statement is untrue.
Actually, another untrue statement.
There is not evidence of your god either. And, the ramblings from the bible have already been debunked.
Corrupt manipulation by consciously active, thinking people who wanted to ensure that humankind was made to answer to a higher authority, other than self.
I don't any other piece of literature that has been manipulated by others than the bible.
And, it might be good if YOU learned more about your bible than just reading it.
An interesting post, but with no substance as usual. Yes, I accept GOD as real based on a belief, but the bible has NOT be debunked as you indicated, only by people that have very shallow understandings of what they are reading. To truly understand the bible, you need to be able to keep the word in context of who wrote it. Something as simple as language change in the meaning of a word can change the essence of what is being read and many misunderstandings have happened because of this. Look at the bible the Catholics use for example. They use what is called the Alexander bible. If you know anything about the origins and how the bible was copied in primitive times, you can trace the problems with the Alexander bible. It is a BAD copy of the original and has many problems that have caused huge arguments between scholars. To simply say the "Bible" has been debunked, you need to clearly define which bible, where did it originate, etc. There are many versions and revisions of the bible that are corrupt in many ways. A very good example of this as it relates to evolution issues is the original bible contained a phrase in Genesis that states, On "THE" first day . . . . , but the revised version states, On "One" day . . . . The word "The" is very important to understanding of what actually happened. If you use "One" day to get the meaning, you could be saying one day could mean a million years. Many do believe that, however, if you state the word "The" first day, the word "THE" means one day, not millions of years. It is clear that 12 hours is a day and the next 12 hours is night.
This is the kind of thing scholars look at and study. Writings separate of the bible are scarce but do exist and anyone can go to the ancient sites described in the bible and find evidence of the things written. I've seen many of the sites talking about discrepencies in the bible, but these are ignorant people that have not studied or understand the importance of looking at the facts relating to the context in which these things were written. When I was a boy, GAY meant "Happy." I really don't think if you want to keep your teeth, you will call Koby Briant a GAY guy in today's world. He may be happy, but I'm sure he wouldn't take it the way you intended if you said that to him.
"There is no evidence of GOD?" Where have you looked? In a biology book, the T.V., your backyard? Hmmm.
If we lived in a 2 dimensional world, how would you perceive a 3 dimensional item? A flat piece of paper most likely. Since you obviously have swallowed a lot of the evolutionists ideas of things, you most likely have also swallowed Stephen Hawkins "String theory of everything." In that, he describes 11 dimensions. Are you saying you have looked at all 11 dimensions and didn't find GOD there? How about looking at some of the things described in the bible and go there and examine the artifacts and make a determination then. Are you aware they found Noah's ARK? You could actually get on a plane, go there, and look for yourself and make your own mind up rather than taking some so called "Scientist" that has bought into the idea we evolved from some primordial soup.
There are way too many things in this world that point to the creation by GOD that are far easier to believe than some HACK scientist group that is trying very hard to convince all of us that NO GOD exists and that we came from 20 proteins magically gathering together in some primordial soup (basically salt water) flowing over a rock and using the sun as the energy to give it the energy so it won't be called a "Closed system."
The bible says, God spoke all this into existence. This makes GOD very powerful with abilities you and many do NOT want to accept because you and the others would have to say he is in control.
And only ignorant people base things to be truth by a simple belief.
Actually, you would have to rip it apart, so as to figure out the "metaphors", so you can truly understand the "parable" context.
Yes, many people take it literal, when metaphors were actually used. It goes to show the direct stupidity of those who read it without researching it.
Correct, there have been huge arguments. Which should tell you something about it.
The Christianity Bible and every other version derived from it.
I think I already said this. You repeating it, just verifies it.
It's all speculation and nothing more.
And many things that were claimed to be seen has been debunked, because of the established timeline of consciousness within humankind. Meaning, full human consciousness and it's stages of development, and at what stage human consciousness was at, at the time of the written scriptures.
You're probably right about "those" people. However, there are much more intelligent people who have no agenda toward religion, which have objectively ripped apart scripture to gain true understanding of history and humankind.
I've looked IN myself, which is what Jesus originally taught his disciples. I introspective search my self, consciously everyday. Sorry to say, NO GOD found. I make all decisions. I create all thoughts.
I don't prescribe to anything you mentioned above. It's all speculation.
Only ignorance would do so, because Jesus' teachings were never about an external "god", but internal. What part did you miss about his teachings?
Try to learn something would you. You picking and choosing select pieces to support your position isn't objective, but proves you cannot get by your own ego and subjective view.
Yes it does. Too bad you still don't understand "WHY" religion exists to begin with. The "god" concept was ADDED to religion, so as to give mysteries answers.
Actually, I don't say anything of it. YOU are in control of your own actions. YOU create whatever you CHOOSE in your life.
No god required.
Sorry guy, your diatribe still contains NO FACTS and you have NOT addressed the things I brought and in a bunch of meaningless statements have distorted what I said. You don't like that I bring up some specific issues because you have none to offer. You say in so many words that we Christians need to not get into the details but look at the big picture. I understand why you don't want to, because that's where your arguments fall apart.
If you understood linguistics, you would know that words have changed meanings over the years and you need to put those words used in the context in which they were written. Interpretation of the bible requires this kind of study.
Are you saying that scientists don't argue about evolution issues? Are you saying they don't look at details, but only the big picture when they are professing some kind of find? We all should look at those details very carefully, don't you think before drawing erroneous conclusions that many people do.
A simple question for you: The heart beats 24/7 for 100 years in some cases if you are lucky. How could that heart evolved where 5 things have to happen mechanically and 5 things chemically in the body all at the same time? Did all 10 things happen simultaneously? Even given millions of years to evolve, did each thing happen and then all of a sudden happen at the same time? Did this happen to both male and female simultaneously?
Please answer that question.
I say GOD required.
Distorted what you said. Isn't that the "kettle?"
All you did was bring up specific situations without ever addressing what I said to begin with. So, you're guilt comes first, before your implication of mine. But, nice try though.
Actually, that's NOT what I said. I said, YOU need to get more information through research of the words you claim are TRUTH based on your belief. Do try to get it right.
My argument cannot fall apart, except with your inability to see beyond yourself.
Actually, as I said- you need to figure out what words are metaphors of the parables written in the primitive religious language available. Apparently, you've not done your research. Nothing new for a believer.
The only ones who claim evolution isn't true are those who support the original "god" concept. But, nice try.
I am saying increase your individual knowledge and do the research required, instead of faithfully believing something you didn't research. DUH!
I have for over 10+ years and found that the "BIBLE" itself has been completely explained, using proper metaphor context of the parables written. Something YOU haven't obviously done.
Actually, this is untrue. It would beat a lot longer, but doesn't due to other circumstances, such as environment.
This only points out that you are willing to attribute the human body's amazing qualities, to something else, instead of learning more about it. As for answering your question- I don't have the knowledge to answer it, considering my knowledge in human anatomy is quite limited. It also wasn't/isn't a concern. I am alive, living and understand my own life. So, there isn't an actually NEED to know it. Something you apparently don't grasp, and that's understanding your own life.
As I already stated, my knowledge is limited with regards to human anatomy.
I'm sure you do. You NEED it. I don't. I understand my life. I understand I am the only authority IN my life.
YOU require a god to make your choices for you. You require a god to tell you how to live, because you don't know any better.
That must make you proud. What a shame.
What a pile of non-descript, non-committal, double talk. Your logic is quite the treat. At least you are man enough to admit that you know little about the human anatomy. You believe I have some primal need to "Require a god to tell you how to live?" Where did you get that idea? I simply believe GOD created us, gave us the power to make decisions as we choose, and allow us to believe we are "The only authority IN" your life. I choose to allow GOD to be in my life, believe he has my best interest at heart and makes my life more enriched because of it. There is NO fear here, NO demands, and a lot of peace of mind. I do NOT require GOD to make choices for me. There is NO requirement here. You've got it all wrong guy.
In regard to the anatomy, yes I'm schooled in many ways on that and have a good knowledge of how the body works. We are connected in so many ways to our environment through biophotons like all living matter and even non living matter. The very transcription of DNA is intiated by light energy in us all that each cell makes, stores, and communicates with all the other cells in the body and everything around us. There is absolutely NO WAY this could be attributed to evolution and in fact, destroys all the aspects of evolution. You need to expand your knowledge beyond the idea you are some kind of separate entity that has no connection to GOD, but that my friend is your choice, not his.
There are many problems with modern understandings of the Bible. Like, for instance, almost every time in the Bible where it says "snake" or "serpent", it's not a snake or serpent. It's actually a metaphor used back then for someone evil (i.e. Satan). Sorry, no snake in the garden. Just an angel with ego-problems.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … n-culture/
Here's what the scientific community thinks about your claim of the discovery of the Ark on Mt. Arrarat.
What bible do you use as your trustworthy source? Why do you choose that one?
Do you understand that when you talk about the "original" bible, you display an ignorance of the history of scripture. No original texts exist. None. All that is available are scribal copies of scripture. No originals. Not one.
You are another poster that starts with the assumption that the Bible is true and inerrant, the inspired word of God. When you start your investigations with an assumption, you can be sure what the results of your investigation will be. You determined the results before you began your research.
He's talking about the Masaortic Texts, the Septuagint, and the Novum Testamentum Graece. As far as anyone knows, (and I've done my research) these r some of the very original Scriptures, and they're what most Bibles are translated from.
They are not originals, though. They are scribal copies, like all scriptural texts we have available, which are subject to all the same possibilities of alteration, both accidental and intentional, as all other remnants that have been used to cobble together the accepted canon.
The Dead Sea scrolls supplied the oldest scriptural artifacts we had ever seen. They, too, were not originals. There has never been any scriptural text that was not subject to the possibility of alteration and editorializing by the scribe who left it behind.
Would God let his Word, the building block of Christianity, be changed so we would be decieved. No.
@"thebrucebeat": In regard to your remark about the dead sea scrolls, yes they were "copies" as such, but were a result of the Essenes memorizing the originals to preserve the integrity of the works so they could not be destroyed for future reference. The Essenes wrote the scrolls from memory they painstakenly memorized and in order to understand their writings, you also need to know the various dialects. I know personally a scholar that was on the team that interpreted them and he was extremely knowledgeable and an expert on the various dialects. So, even though you are correct, the credibility is extremely high in regard to the accuracy of those scrolls.
Exactly! The only reasoning religion has access to is circular.
If you are describing evolution beyond speciation as a religion, then I accept your premise that evolution is based on circular reasoning in many ways. Unlike you, here's an example:
The geometric column is a made up thing pulled completely out of thin air and what determines the age of the layers? Fossils. Then to determine the age of the fossils you find in the layers of the earth they use the particular layer to determine that. Now THAT is CIRCULAR REASONING. Now what "Circular reasoning" are you referring to as "religion has access to is circular?"
Typical! You twisted what I said.
The circular reasoning of religion is obvious and has been mentioned and explained many times here already.
Why pretend you don't know about it and twist what I said?
I should not even bother to ask, an honest reply would be a miracle!
There is no twisting here or deceit on my part. I simply want an explanation of how you view "circular reasoning of religion." No tricks. You could have given that explanation easily in the space you took up with this ridiculous assumption and answer.
How is asking you to explain your statement that religion uses circular reasoning "Twisting your words?" That is not only bad logic, but you twisting and turning to get out of explaining yourself. To say it is all over this post, is a weasle's way of getting out of explaining yourself. If you can't explain what you mean by circular reasoning in religious context as used here, then why make such a statement?
It's simpler than all of that science stuff.
I don't belief in myths as reality.
To come to that conclusion all that is required is logic and common sense.
No other belief system needs to replace a belief in the tooth fairy either for most thinking adults.
Not sure about some here though, they may have to learn science to get away from the tooth fairy myth.
yah its simpler than 20 proteins in a primordial pool receiving sunshine all joining to produce a simple (complex actually) cell.
Show me a lab result where this was accomplished
Man has never created something from nothing, show me where this has been replicated.
So you don't believe in "Myths as reality?" Alright then. Do you believe man and apes came from the same being? If so, where is your proof? If there is no proof, can we agree that it is a myth? Or maybe a religious belief at least?
Not something worthy of discussion and done to death.
I don't believe in fairies, goblins, invisible entities, or that psychotic scriptures were dictated or written by anything but a psychotic.
I need not argue past that or about evolution.
Evolution is not a theory, it is reality with millions of peer reviewed articles and a mass of empirical evidence to support it.
More info comes in daily.
You have a mythical yarn that claims a god that made itself, made mankind then wiped out all but 8 of them in one fit of psychotic rage, then became his own son, then killed himself to atone for the screw up job he made of it!
The carpenter who blames the chair he made for being faulty syndrome.
You make these statements like evolution is a fact not a theory, but when you look for facts to back up evolution beyond speciation, there is NONE. Please give us one fact that is irrefutable since you claim there are millions of peer reviewed articles, name one that is not related to speciation. Peers are easy to find that agree on evolution, but where are the credible peers that do not have an agenda to maintain? We can wait on the other 999,999 facts you say there are.
Facts man, not rhetoric is what is required to justify your "Beliefs."
I believe your mythical yarn about evolution is far more difficult to believe. If you want money for some project, I understand the logic of wanting to believe the evolution fantasy, but let's see the facts. You keep saying there are millions of them. Show us one.
Been there done that with religionists.... they just lie about the evidence, quote from scientists that have a religious background and agenda, and are considered nutters by other scientists.
Then they make ridiculous claims about sky fairies.
If ur not gonna support ur arguement at all, then u might as well get off here, dude. Otherwise, ur just insulting a straw man.
No strawman! If you had been here long enough you would have seen the information I have posted (with links) to the background of these scientists.
Every one of then had an axe to grind. Science doesn't generally concern itself with proving or disproving religious myth.
What is a "Sky fairy" you keep talking about? Is that your made up term or did you hear it from some other source? Do you actually believe Christians are not intelligent? I actually am finding rather boring now and like an empty shell with no substance.
Lie about evidence? Really? Where is your evidence? You have NONE and have presented NONE. Is it a lie that you keep saying you have evidence? Where is your evidence that Christians lie? You keep making these ridiculous statements and calling Christians "Nutters" but you have NO EVIDENCE! You sir, are full of yourself and beliefs that have NO EVIDENCE, only diatribes that you keep saying things you cannot back up. When are you going to show us ANYTHING with proof? Are we to believe you are just an ignorant ranter that has no substance and only name calling, words that are just your opinions, nothing more?
"Not worthy of discussion?" Do you acknowledge that there is NO PROOF of an ancestor giving rise to both humans and apes? If there is no proof, especially scientific proof, doesn't that beg the position that it is NOT a fact and only a "Religious belief," certainly it cannot be scientific since no proof is available, only a belief?
What in the world does all that jibberish mean? IGNORANCE personified. lol
Just demonstrating what your gibberish sounds like to thinking people.
But you are not a thinking person, so how do you know what thinking people like and don't like?
So far in all the posts you've made on this forum, you have demonstrated your ignorance and have NOT given any facts, just diatribes about how you believe this and that. I ask you for the 5th time, what part of evolution do you believe and what don't you believe MR. EVOLUTION GUY? Let's hear your intellect shine here instead of your ignorance of the subject.
I have given plenty of facts. I also pointed out that the bible does NOT say the earth is round. Yet you ignored that completely. Odd - seeing as you had based your argument that the bible was full of science on that.
You are not interested in hearing any facts. You just want to fight with peopel like Jesus taught you to do.
You keep saying you've given facts, but your statement about the bible not say the earth is round is just another mis-step in your logic and understanding of the bible. This just demonstrates more of your ignorance of the subject and shows why your belief in evolution is just more of the same ignorance.
I will state it one more time in a little more detail so you can learn something here:
The bible says "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isiah 40:22). The word translated "circle" here is the Hebrew word "CHUWG" that is also translated "circuit" or "compass" (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched -- not something that is flat or square. The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 B.C. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested, in his book On the Heavens, that the earth might be a sphere. It was another 2,000 years later at the time science believed that the earth was flat that the bible inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world. You see Christopher Columbus was an avid bible reader.
Please get your facts straight before writing things you know nothing about.
Your TROLLING statement about how Jesus taught me to fight with people and I'm not interested in facts is not only ridiculous, but just further showing your ignorance about what facts are!
How many dimensions does a circle possess?
Gosh - your history is as good as your bible reading.
Keep fighting for Jesus. And lying about translations - that was good. It is widely accepted that that word means "circle" - LOLOLOLO
And - for certain - the bible says "circle," not "round," as you lied that it said. Have you actually read this book?
I gave some facts that back up my understanding, all you give us is your opinion with no facts to back it up. Where is your history? What is your understanding of the translations? Your ignorance is showing again! Let's see your proof of your statement about the translations. Do you even know what the word translation means? You say it is widely accepted that the word means circle, but where is your "Widely accepted proof of that?" Put up or shut up as they say guy! Time to buck up and be the big guy here. Show us your proof of that statement. lol
LOL You said that the bible said the earth was round. You lied. What you actually meant was - you are prepared to lie that the original Jewish word can be loosely translated to mean "round" which can be further loosely translated to mean "sphere." Liars for Jesus (TM) will lie and say the bible says "round" when it says "circle."
Certainly the translators - who were inspired by god according to you science-hating religious nuts - thought it meant "circle," and in all other contexts where the word is used in the original - it was translated as "circle."
So - there is my proof. The bible says "circle" - therefore the translators took the word to mean "circle," - Which is indeed the reason the medieval world thought the earth was flat.
The Earth is an oblate spheroid in any case. This does not change the fact that all bibles say "circle."
Again, you just don't get it do you. To explain "Context" and language useage during the period in which things were written is just too much for your brain to absorb, obviously. What education do you claim to have?
The facts are what they are and no diatribe you present has any facts to back up the fact that "Circle" during the time this was written included round, spheres, etc. You believe what you want to believe, but the truth will set you free.
"When a man is honest and he hears the truth, he embraces the truth or he ceases to be honest.”
Here is a "truth for you to deal with.
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings."
(Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
Psychosis pure and simple. You worship a vehicle of hate.
War is like that
Seriously I am glad the USA had our backs WW2 or we would all be walkng around speaking Japanese today.
Which I know raises another topic ,but then again ,not really.
So much love!
America only entered the war for itself when the Japanese hit Pearl Harbour, otherwise they would have just stayed out of it.
But doesnt change the point I was tryin to make.
The Old Testamant as you know deals with history and law.
There were no commandments.(yet)
In fact lawlessness ruled the land.
They fought for dominance and power and against Gods leaders.
Lose /lose scenerio in the end.
Makes more sense to be on the winning team
(I read the end of the book)
Psychosis pure and simple. You worship a vehicle of hate.
Yet,if we hail from a Western Country ,we would probably all agree that we hail from democratic country with good leaders. These leaders go to war too?
Do you tar them all with the same brush?..
Are they not protecting their own people?
The war in Iraq is a fine example of what I am on about.
America destroyed one of the worlds truly great cities, and killed thousands of intelligent non combative women and children all to capture one man, who was their stooge in the first place.
If they did that to my country I would hate their guts just as much as the Iraq people do.
Yeah, just like the indigenous people of America are walking around speaking ENGLISH today. Would have been nice if someone had their backs.
So what you are saying is - you did lie that the bible says the earth is round, but it doesn't matter because the language usage in 1611 means when people said "circle" they meant "sphere" and the fact that everyone thought the earth was flat during this time has nothing to do with a circle being 2 dimensional so it does not matter that you lied about what the bible says because Jesus says lying is OK if it is in defense of your silly beliefs. Gotcha.
The truth is - you are lying and now defending the lie.
I'd love to find out what you believe about the "Myth" that is promoted by some so called scientists that believe we came from a primordial soup where 20 proteins simultaneously appeared and came together to create a single cell as a result of water running over a rock and sunlight was the energy source to allow this to happen. If that is not a "Myth," what is it? It certainly is NOT SCIENCE in it's pure form. There has NEVER been an experiment that shows this could happen. The only experiment ever created to show this failed so miserably, it showed the exact opposite that it could NOT happen. So now, where do you go for that answer?
The "Other scientists" that are religious and have different views are thought of as "Nutters?" Alright, then what do you call scientists that believe in the primordial soup where life sprang up out of nothing? Since we don't have ANY scientific proof of that, are they the real "Nutters," or just some guys that have this "Religious belief" in something that has never been proven by science? It certainly is NOT GOOD SCIENCE to believe that now is it? Or do you CHOOSE to believe that nonsense over GOOD SCIENCE or CREATION that has lots of evidence pointing toward creation as being far more plausible?
Alright, you say you don't believe in the tooth fairy, well guess what, I don't believe anyone here believes in the tooth fairy either, so now we seem to have a point of agreement universally here. Bravo.
Speaking of tooth fairies, I think it would be apropos to mention what could be construed as "Tooth fairies" making claims of finding the so called "Missing link" allegedly proving humans came from some distant creature that gave birth to a higher form that became man and then ape also. I'm speaking of the Nebraska Man. Ever hear of that farce and deceit that was touted as the "Missing link?" That single tooth was used to create this fantastic story and that it was THE missing link, but oops, it was found out later that it was nothing more than an extinct pig tooth. Yet these so called scientists created this huge story about how the "Missing link" had been discovered and they even created a female as part of the story. Where was REAL science in all this? Look at all the funding it generated. Now that is a REAL TOOTH FAIRY STORY don't you think or are you not man enough to admit the farce and admit that at least that evolutionist's creation was BAD SCIENCE at work?
And what about the "Piltdown Man" that was estimated to be 300,000 to one million years old that Dawson promoted as THE "Missing link?" in 1953, it was found that after 40 years of scientists believing this garbage that it was a hoax. The skull elonged to a 600 year old woman (she was dead of course), and the jaw to a 500 year old orangutan from the East Indies! Now how do you suppose those two items were put together, eh? Deceit, lies, and more lies are what makes up this ridiculous evolution theory. Tooth fairies you say? What would you call those discoveries, "Bone fairies?"
Are you lying for Jesus or God? Like wot Jesus sed ter do?
There you go again with the "Liar" word! ROFLAO. And specifically big "GUY" where is your proof or even what supposed lie you are referring to would help greatly to evaluate your ignorance more closely.
And all of us would like to hear where you get that information that "Jesus sed ter do?" Used your exact spelling so you can understand the question better.
There have been many biblical fakes too, if this really makes a difference to you. You seem to suggest because some scientific claims are fake all of them are. Do you feel the same concerning religious fakes? You know, like the link you posted suggesting several of us visit Turkey to find the truth about Noah's ark.
Get real dude, you can't have it both ways. If you have a degree in biology, you will know the timeline for the flood is wrong because the genetic diversity among some species of animals could not have reached its present point in such a short time. Two animals and their offspring would not be able to account for such diversity in the genetic markers.
Check out the cheetah and how their genetic markers have developed for an example of my point. But since you have a degree in biology, you either already know this or else think scientists are lying intentionally just to fool the fundies.
You keep bringing up the ark as if that is a coup de grace and you think because you presented a site that appears on the surface to be credible, I should bow down and accept anything you say as credible? Because evolutionist cannot present ANY evidence for their theory that evolution extends beyond speciation, any evidence presented thus far has been debunked and in most cases shown to be accompanied by fraud, deception, and out and out lies.
In regard to the diversity of species and genetics, you are so wrong on that count. Are you saying in 4,400 years, 400 species of dog could not have happened? If evolution were true and no flood happened, have you done the calculations on how many humans there would be on earth? The number we are at now and looking at the population rate, the genetics, etc., we are right there. Also, genetic data shows we all came from one man and one woman. In regard to race, there is only one race and that is the human race. Black, Brown, Asian, Caucasian are all one race with some variations. If you trace the lineage of the bible starting with Noah & his 6 children and wife, and realize their ages when they died the whole story gets very interesting as to where they went on the earth and how it got populated.
If you just stop and look at what the calculations are in regard to the rate at which the moon is moving away from the earth, it is obvious that the moon would have collided with the earth just a few million years ago, not 4.6 billion years. Why do we not see but only about 300 super nova remnants in the universe when we look for them. About every 25 to 30 years a star super novas somewhere in the universe. If the universe is billions of years old, where did those super nova remnants go? Has anyone see that supposed ORT cloud that holds all those comets? NOT. We know comets life span is a maximum of about 10,000 years. Why do we still see comets if everything was as old as some imagine? The ORT cloud that no one has seen, only imagined is making them?
How do you explain the presence of a biofield of biophotons in the body where each cell of the body makes light, stores light, and uses light to communicate with all of the other cells in the body and initiates transcription of DNA? How did that evolve or how was it first created? I choose NOT to limit GOD. The bible says he "Spoke" everything into existence and that we are made in the image of GOD. Without light there would be no life on earth, do you agree?
We have lost over 40% to 50% of the electromagnetism in our earth in the last several thousand years. Scientist to save their idea of the earth being billions of years old are telling us all that there was some kind of "REVERSAL" of this energy and that it cycles. Alright, if you believe that, then there must be proof right? The only proof I've seen anyone present is that since the earth is losing it's energy at the rate at which it is reducing, this reversal is the only way it could be as old as it is, but there is NO PROOF OF ANY REVERSAL OF HAPPENING, just a few areas on earth where a deviation that is speculated to show reversal.
I'm interested in your source of information on the Cheetah because it is well known that Cheetahs have little genetic variation to the point where you can take skin from one and graft it to another with no problem. This has been the case according to some studies from the last ice age that I believe coincided with the flood when the earth started having seasons and rain fall.
If you used just one tenth of one percent of the effort you use to debunk scientific theories...to scrutinize your own nonsensical beliefs...you would see just how foolish it is to believe that a wretched 2000 year old book...written by ignorant goat herders...has the source of the truth for all this vast existence.
To say that you use a double standard, is a uber understatement.
And it is transparently clear that you are, in no way, searching for the truth.
Precisely why I mentioned the cheetah, Nutex. Read the National Geographic issued a few months ago using the Cheetah to show how it is impossible for the ark story to be true.
Dog breeds do not take millions of years to produce. Some are not very old breeds at all. The moon, or any other satellite, has an orbit which degrades faster the further it gets from the heavenly body it is attracted to. The rate of escape does not always remain the same. You should know that.
But I am through wasting my time talking to you. Write something which impresses me as being accurate and not full of hyperbole and we might talk again.
I'm actually going to agree with Randy here. The dog is an animal that can breed within 6 months to a year from being born, has a relatively short gestation and is being breed for specific traits. That is quite different than naturally occurring biodiversity. Humans made poodles. But, from a creationism vs. evolution standpoint, I'd say that their existence probably is an argument for evolution. They prove that evolution is possible which, honestly, is more scientific proof than creationism has produced.
I hate arguing for the other team demmit.
Speciation or variation within a species like a dog is very provable, scientifically sound, repeatable, and can be observed. This NOT evolution, unless you want to define it that way. It is when these guys start telling us that science has proven evolution beyond speciation exists. There is NO PROOF of that and further it is a ridiculous theory that cannot be proven. It is a belief, nothing more. ALL of the so called "Missing links" have been debunked and shown to be lies and deceit created to make them look credible, primarily to raise money. Piltdown man, what a joke that was, but not quite as incredible as Nebraska man that was just an ancient pig tooth, or Lucy that they put human feet on to make her look human! She was just a tree climbing monkey, nothing more. It's all a big joke and BAD SCIENCE all the way around.
There are about 400 species of dogs, but they all are dogs and came from a dog. Why don't we see this happening today, or in the last several thousand years? What a fairy tale.
Everybody likes hearing questions, gives us power!
No body wants to hear "THE" answer ....
i know this cause I been listening.
Reminds me of the old baptist joke.
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
Jakob, you say you believe in God, because evolution is stupid. However, the vast majority of Christians in the world do actually believe in evolution. It is official teaching of the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches, and in most other Christian denominations, and has been for a very long time. The Anglican Church recognised evolution to be fact in the nineteenth century, as did the Roman Catholic Church, although there have been members of these churches who have questioned it, they have been in a minority. Even the Pope has criticised priests who believe in the literal creation story of the Bible, and has declared that evolution is to be considered fact for Roman Catholics.
It was only in the early 20th century, that a few American Evangelical Christians began to question evolution, not because of a lack of evidence, but simply on religious grounds. In recent times, the idea of Intelligent Design has been invented by these religious groups, and they have tried to have this theory taught in American schools, although they have been defeated in their challenges.
As the majority of Christians in the world accept evolution, it would suggest that being a Christian and being an evolutionist are not incompatible.
I never said I don't believe in evolution, just I don't believe in mass evolution ("birds come from dinos, who come from fish, who come from bugs..."). btw, I'm a huge Sherlock Holmes fan.
I have to confess to not being the real Sherlock Holmes. This is just a persona I use on here.
Your NOT the real Sherlock Holmes????
That is scary. Who is the real Holmes then?
I was just mentioning it because of your screen name. I kno ur not really him.
The Roman Catholic church in my opinion is nothing more than a well organized, large cult. Their basis of belief is from the Alexander bible translation that is a BAD copy of the original works and contains lots of problems, including the omitting of the commandment that talks about idols. This was done for convenience sake to allow them to make idols (statues, etc.) and sell them for money.
To say the majority of Christians accept evolution is very problematic because you first have to define what you mean by evolution. I find that most evolutionist really don't know what they believe, but have accepted it as fact because it frees them of having to believe GOD is in charge and created all this. There are 6 sections or categories of evolution that one must address to clearly define what is meant. They are:
1 Cosmic evolution is the origin of time, space, and matter, i.e. the big bang
2 Chemical evolution is the origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3 Stellar and Planetary evolution origin of stars and planets.
4 Organic evolution is the origin of life
5 Macro evolution is the changing from one kind into another
6 Micro Evolution are the variations within kinds.
I think when you clearly define what you mean by evolution, you will see that Christians believe in #6 and none of the others. #6 can be proven with good science and does happen. It is hard to disagree with the variations within species of animals. There are about 400 varieties of dogs, but they all are dogs and most likely came from 2 dogs. Mutations, etc. clearly happen within a give species. There is absolutely NO PROOF of any kind of animal that became another kind. That has not happened, there is no proof of that, and for anyone to think it has happened is NOT GOOD SCIENCE. So if you can define what you mean by evolution, then it will be far easier for anyone here to understand what you are saying and meaning. Then we will have something to argue or agree on.
I understand that I may have strayed from this myself, and I'm gonna try not to, but please: if ur gonna say ur a Christian "Judge not lest you be judged." - Matt.7:1
I'm not sure of the origins of sky fairy, but mythical invisible entities are called many things including gods.
I believe that many christians are intelligent. As a christian myself, I was not.
I was, young ignorant and unworldly.
The belief itself I find to be very stupid and have explained why many times.
Indoctrination is essential to come to the conclusion that a god has any say in humanity other than as a subconscious response to the fear of death.
The psychotic language of the OT god is proof positive that there is nothing "godly" about making threats of torture to non followers either.
Religious belief requires a suspension of logic, and a denial of the proof we see every day that it is a nonsense.
Finally you put some teeth into your explanation that has some reasonable logic to it. I don't agree with you about how you view GOD, but feel badly you have mixed emotions with logic and come to the conclusions you have about the non-existence of GOD. I believe if you are truly searching, still, there may be hope for you yet. To discount GOD because you could not reconcile what you perceive to be foolishness, may indeed be simply lack of understanding and the lack of information.
Let me ask, do you believe there was a flood 4,400 years ago that destroyed all man-kind except for 8 people and all the animals, except for fish? If you do, do you believe it was due to GOD causing it? If you don't, how can you explain all the evidence of this flood, 270 accounts world wide in all corners of the earth in almost every culture that describe 8 people on a boat carrying all the animals?
Of course I don't believe the biblical account of the flood!
It is one of the many demonstrations of "gods power" that took a local flood and turned it in to a worldwide one.
The know world would have had floods, just like every other part of the world has floods.
Unless you are claiming that the Japanese disaster was gods work, why would a god have anything to do with a natural disaster?
I thought that would be your answer.
Are you aware they found Noah's ark near mount Ararat in Turkey? You can actually go there and see it and look at the artifacts. Surprise, surprise, the dimensions of the ark are as what is indicated in the bible. The scientists that went to the site verified it and the country of Turkey declared it a national monument.
You probably believe the mountains have been here for millions of years too. If we just look at the simple erosion facts, all of the mountains in the world would be flat within 15 million years. So how do you explain that?
Isn't it interesting that in the Tundra above Canada, oil drillers are finding 300 foot trees upside down 1,000 feet below the permafrost. How did that happen? The way fossils have been laid down is very explainable with a flood. The birds are on top, the large dinosaurs are on the bottom. The carcassas could have floated for long distances before dropping and then being covered as the flood waters receded. Why all of a sudden did 5 million mammoths die suddenly, many with food still in their mouths and quick frozen?
Why would GOD have anything to do with a "Natural" disaster? GOD was not happy with how man had turned away from him and he wanted to start over to give man a second chance. Noah and his 7 relatives were pure of heart and worthy of the new start. We lost a lot of the wonderful creation that was made.
Why are there NO deserts older than about 4,000 years old? No trees older than about 4,200 years old? The oceans have very little erosion debris that indicates a few thousand years, why?
I would expect you believe that the whale used to walk on land because of the bony appendage on it's belly too. Things like that are used to prove evolution and are so ridiculous. If you understand the anatomy of a whale, you would know that it is just a reproductive function, not some primal leg like those scientists that you obviously support are saying. You probably also believe that garbage about the appendix being a vestigal organ don't you. lol. It is an integral part of the immune function to turn on killer "B" cells and helps protect the body from several diseases. Do you also believe the gill slits in embryos says humans have remnants of fish gills? lol. Those have no function in the human body that ever relates to respiration. They are just folds that become other parts of the body.
To say the flood was a local one is simply showing your ignorance of the evidence that is very clear it was a worldwide one. 270 cultures around the world have the same flood story talking about 8 people that were on a boat and gathered all the animals of the world on it.
Let's see your evidence that evolution other than #6 of the various evolutionary categories listed previously. Why don't you answer that question? Afraid or maybe you just don't know what you believe or have a clue about evolution and are just a troll making statements to just raise eyebrows here.
Let's see some PROOF guy.
For your information, Christians never said the world was flat, in fact they supported the idea it was round. Where in the world do you get the idea that Christians thought the world was flat? That is ridiculous and further shows your ignorance of the facts.
Where is your proof of anything you are alleging? You keep making these ridiculous statements and providing NO EVIDENCE or PROOF. You say you believe science, but you don't even know what the scientific method is. REAL SCIENCE is wonderful and I totally support it, but this pseudoscience that supports evolution is beyond ridiculous and NOT science at all. It is beliefs and suppositions mixed in with the desire to prove a theory that is only kept alive by funding. Take away the funding for all this and you will see it dry up and blow away where it belongs.
Round? What a lie. Where does the bible say the earth is ROUND? Have you even read this book? Christians believed the earth was flat for many years.
Please stop lying at me. I know this is what your religion teaches is the right thing to do, but still.
You are pathetic..
Throwing accusations and lies at people..
Calling other people liars when you are the liar yourself.
Please consider looking into things before speaking as if you know something about the subject....
So did the rest of the world. That doesn't mean they got it from the Bible.
But it does mean the bible is wrong, and your God allowed you to be deceived.
We know that the scriptures have been altered through the scribal process, as the earliest samples we have are different in some significant ways from the later samples of scripture we have.
Your position assumes that scripture is God breathed, so the only conclusion you could possibly come to is that it is inerrant, when a more disinterested investigation shows that not to be the case at all.
The history of the origin of scripture is fascinating, but is often unknown by those who have chosen to accept the inerrancy fallacy. They refuse to expose themselves to anything that would clearly show them to be in error.
If you want to prove me wrong, start by reading Bart Ehrmann's books. It will open your eyes.
How does that prove the Bible wrong? I just said the Bible doesn't tell us the Earth is flat. That would kinda mean IT'S RIGHT wouldn't it? Or are you someone who still believes the Earth is flat? I have studied the origin of Scripture, and I could probly answer any of your questions about Scriptural history off the top of my head. Would the atheists on here please stop assuming everyone else is dumber than them?
The bible does assume the earth to be flat.
Is heaven above us if we are in the U.S. or in China? If we bore down far enough into the earth's crust, will we find hell? It is below us, isn't it?
If you are so expert on the biblical origins, can you explain why the scriptures vary so much? Why did they change so much over time? If the earlier ones are to be assumed to be closer to the originals, why is the evangelical favorite, the KJV, based on later corrupted versions, primarily the Latin Vulgate? How can you be secure in the hundreds of years of verbal translation before much of it was written down, or decades in the case of the New Testament? Tell a simple story around a campfire with twenty Girl Scouts and see what comes out at the end once it is whispered, one to the next. Why do some of the most favorite stories in the New Testament, like the Good Samaritan, not appear in the oldest texts we have available? When were they added, and why?
Where does the Bible say hell is inside Earth and Heaven is right above it? Change can be good, and God-inspired. How do pieces added in mean those pieces are wrong? If you wrote a history book and forgot something, and your best friend knew what you'd forgotten and wrote it in there before the book was sent to the publisher, does that automatically mean your friend is wrong? No, it doesn't.
Yes, scripture tells us Heaven is above us and Hell below. I'm sure you know this and don't really need it pointed out to you. Genesis also describes how all was water and then was divided and set up in layers. It is quite explicit as to the horizontal nature of the world.
So if I decide something has been forgotten, can I add to scripture now? If older and newer texts don't match, how do you choose which has veracity?
WHERE does Scripture say that? If you don't tell me I'll have to assume you're lying.How does the water-thing prove the world is flat? If what you're saying is true, than the fact that there is an atmosphere or layers to that atmosphere would mean the world is flat (which it doesn't). You have to KNOW something's been forgotten and KNOW it's God-inspired to be in Scripture. What doesn't match?
Read Bart Ehrmann and then message me and we'll discuss it. You are not exposed to any critical scholarship, only that which is in defense of what you believe. Have the courage to do this and come back. I'm not going to take you by the hand and try to do Ehrmann's work in sound bite fashion on here. Read about it. I dare you. I've done all the reading on your side. I got ordained as a minister, have read extensively and written and preached as well. Have the courage to read the other position, and when you have we'll have a serious discussion.
I'll take odds that you don't do it, though.
In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”
I can go on with examples of the Bible as a flat earth testimony. Let me know when you want me to stop. There's plenty to choose from.
In Daniel, it is obviously speaking of the known world, i.e. Europe, North Africa, and West Asia. Or do you really think the ancients knew there were the Americas on the other side of the world? Even the ancients knew there was no mountain high enough for you to see the entire world from it. The mountain is a metaphor for a very high place. Perhaps Heaven (or do you take so much from secular opinion that you think Satan is stuck in Hell/Earth, unlike the Bible says, just like "Hell is below us and Heaven's in the sky"). If you were an ordained minister, how come you seem to be unfamiliar with the facts that JESUS IS GOD AND GOD CAN DO ANYTHING AND CAN BE EVERYWHERE. If God wants everyone to see him, they will, because he can physically manifest himself in every block in every city in ever country in the entire Earth.
If you just want to rely on "goddunnit" for your excuses, then there is no use for you to attempt to use logic or reality at all.
So every time you get a question you have no reasonable answer for, just say goddunnit and leave it at that. We understand!
If the bible was the inspired word of God, the ancients would have known everything he would have revealed to them. Unless you are suggesting that God revealed things that were not true to his constituency, then the other option is it is not the inspired word of God.
You have drunk the Koolaid, and that's great. But as Randy said, if your only defense is going to be God can do anything, and that is the "fact" you are going to base your arguments on, then just leave it there. We have nowhere to go.
Randy, that was the answer to the question. We were talking about the Bible, he mentioned a verse, and I explained what it meant. Just like if you said a cat was a type of canine, I'd correct you that it was a type of feline.
Mr. thebrucebeat, since you seem so infatuated with the Bart Ehrmann books, I'd like to suggest you read and/or watch-the-movies-for Case for Faith and Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. He was atheist, like you, but became open-minded to the Bible and did a lot of research that at last actually PROVED God and Christ's reality rather than disproving them as he expected (because of this evidence he finally became Christian). They're very good books, and I highly recommend them.
Just so you know, Ehrman went the other way. He spent his life in the pursuit of God, from his upbringing in a religious household, to the Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton College and Princeton Seminary. He became one of the most respected experts on the bible and its origins, learning all of the original languages and becoming internationally known. He was not a journalist that caught the fever and wrote a bestseller. He has spent his entire life in the dedicated study of scripture. His knowledge is deep, wide and complex.
What have you read that challenges your preconceived ideas about the inerrancy of scripture? Have you had the courage to challenge those ideas, or has your learning been strictly through evangelical popcorn bestsellers? If Strobel is your version of in depth study, it is clear you will stay indoctrinated.
U no wot the rest of the world beleebeed? U iz clever innit? LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOL
What kind of answer is that EVOLUTION GUY? The rest of the world is not you and in many cases the majority has been wrong. The allopathic doctors killed George Washington because they believed, like the "Rest of the World" at that time that bleeding was the right thing to do to treat his sore throat. When that didn't work, they gave him pure mercury. That cured him of his sore throat alright, he died from mercury poisoning.
You need to look beyond what you have been told and look at the real facts. You may find the truth if you look instead of swallowing the indoctrination of so called scientists that have all these beliefs that are definitely NOT REAL SCIENCE at all. It's time to do your homework.
A lie? Now tell me where did you get your information that Christians believed the world to be flat? Are you also saying that NON-Christians did not believe the world to be flat? What a joke you are. On one hand you tell me I'm lying, but you show NO PROOF whatsoever of your statement. Does that make you a liar or just ignorant making statements with no proof? It is you that originally made the statement that Christians thought the world was flat. Again, are you the liar or ignorant? You choose. lol
LOLOLOLO where does it sez the earth is round?
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;"
You made the claim that I, as a Christian supposedly believe the world to be flat sir. It is you who needs to PROVE your statement that Christians believed the world to be flat. You still didn't choose: IGNORANT or LIAR; your choice.
Ah. It sez CIRCLE Innit?
LOLOLO Not ROUND innit?
How many dimensions in a circle? Would a CIRCLE be 2 dimensional?
FLAT perhaps? LOLOLOOLOLOL
Didit sez ROUND? No. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Therefor UR the liar. U dint red this book innit?
Sir, are you a toddler? You spell like one. The Hebrew word for circle is the same used for ball and, in some cases, sphere. And by the way, circles are round. Get a dictionary.
Thank you Jakob, if you will notice these guys promoting evolution always have some lame answer when confronted with the truth. One of my favorite sayings is: "When a man is honest and he hears the truth, he embraces the truth or he ceases to be honest.”
He keeps calling people liars, but I don't think he even knows what it means.
Did you overlook my response to your post concerning your explanation of the mythical flood?
Sorry - I missed where you told me where the bible says the earth is ROUND. Where was that again?
It is very common knowledge that anyone studying the scriptures knows that the Hebrew word for circle is the same used for ball and, in some cases, sphere. You can do yourself a huge favor and go to the library and look at old dictionaries and see the different meanings of many words and how they have changed based on the years they were used. A very good example of this is the word butterfly. If you look in old English writings, you will see this word was "Flutterby," and only at a point in time, it became "Butterfly." Both words referred to that flying object that flutters as it flies. The word GAY used to mean happy when I was a boy, but today, just call a guy that is very macho gay when you want to say he's happy, and if you don't get a black eye, I'd be surprised. Circle, ball, sphere, are words you need to look at them in the context of the time it was written and in the language it was written, then make some intelligent comments, not the same remarks you make up based on ignorance of the facts.
Another question, but no answer to my questions. Do you NOT have any explanations of the things I brought up? You really need to get a life guy and go do your homework, then come back and let's have a meaningful discussion about what you found.
Evolution is a VERY STUPID theory that has no proof. You still haven't answered my question of the 6 categories of evolution that you believe and the ones you don't.
Are you afraid to commit yourself to an answer or are you confused about what you actually believe when confronted with some specifics?
Where did the water go after the flood? Or come from before the flood, for that matter. No reputable scientist will verify your report of the ark being found anywhere. Feel free to post a link from a non-religious site.
This question has been answered by several. The water for the flood came for caverns deep under the earth where water was stored. Before the flood there was no rain. This is why the first rainbow was a sign from GOD that he would never destroy the earth again with water. The bible talks about this in some detail. The violence that caused the water to shoot up from the caverns also caused the mountains to form and end up with low spots and high mountains. So the water filled in the low spots. There is lots of evidence of all of this if you just look.
As to your statement about a reputable scientist verifying the ark's existence, all you have to do is go to Turkey and see the evidence for yourself. Here is a website you can look at for yourself:
You don't have to take anyone's word for it; just go there and see for yourself and then you decide. And because a site is religious, you don't feel that is credible? I expect you believe vaccinations are a good thing if our government's organization the CDC says it's true also. lol.
This is PROOF?
N u INHnt alike wo t ebolshun sez be coz there int any wot sez in the BIBLE innit?
I am still waiting for you to answer a question instead of making very stupid remarks that are barely discernible to any reasonably educated person here on this forum. You should be ashamed of your answers and embarrassed to be here.
The third time I've asked the same question that you refuse to answer:
Please tell us all here what of the 6 categories of evolution do you believe:
1 Cosmic evolution is the origin of time, space, and matter, i.e. the big bang
2 Chemical evolution is the origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3 Stellar and Planetary evolution origin of stars and planets.
4 Organic evolution is the origin of life
5 Macro evolution is the changing from one kind into another
6 Micro Evolution are the variations within kinds.
The question is a simple one. Can you even define what you believe or are you simply so ignorant you cannot?
You might as well give up. Evolutionists are about providing arguments but no proof and they are not about to answer your questions with logic but insults. I've determined it is a waste of time. Read my post, "He Who Has Ears to Hear, Let Him Hear!"
Where is your proof of ANYTHING you talk about here? Hello! Anybody home?
Thanks so much for at least addressing my questions. Your answers, although entertaining, indicate your lack of understanding of how the planet is formed.
The amount of water it would have taken to cover the entire earth could not have existed below the surface of the earth. Because the solid material of the earth's plates sit atop molten rock, or magma if you prefer, the resulting steam which would have resulted from such a great amount of water would have caused the surface to be constantly exploding. Look up Thera for just such an event.
And please point out the "water shooting out of the caverns" bit in the bible. I guess I missed the "great detail" you spoke of.
I think there is a place in the US where you can go see a giant statue of Paul Bunyan. I don't believe it represents a real live giant, though.
A group of religious "scientists" was recent caught trying to smuggle in fake ark artifacts to Turkey not long ago. Why would they do this? Any ideas?
Here is an interesting website for you to look at. This is just one theory that is very credible that could explain this for you. There are several references to how the water below the earth ("caverns of the deep") was stored and no reference to rain until the time of the flood. I personally believe an object must have struck the earth and put it off axis and created a wobble as is typical of an object striking a rotating object and this is when seasons began.
http://www.yuricareport.com/Science/Hyd … lbrede.pdf
It certainly is a far better theory than evolution idea that life started on earth from 20 proteins magically gathering together from water running over a rock and sunlight giving the energy to make it happen, wouldn't you agree?
In regard to your "Religious scientists" caught trying to smuggle fake ark artifacts, I can believe that. Just as many evolutionists have been caught creating many fake artifacts to get funding. Look at Lucy that human feet were attached, the pig tooth that was used to prove the Nebraska man, etc., etc. I think if you can find all kinds of these things happening, but it does NOT take away from what is real. So far, evolution has NO PROOF that can be shown. Or maybe you have some proof you want to share?
I do not waste my time with these types of sites, as I told you earlier. You stated the cavern theory was described in great detail and I asked for a biblical reference, not a link to another crackpot creationists site.
Maybe, perhaps, what if,-none of this cuts it when trying to prove a point. If you depend on these types of sites for your information then you are wasting my time and yours. You may use the novel, but not the nincompoops.
ETA-The author of the link you provided is neither a geologist nor a theologian and has a habit of avoiding debates with anyone with a scientific background. This includes other creationists as well. It does you no good to use quacks as references to back your arguments. Sorry!
Your answer is so typical and expected. Instead of addressing the information in an intelligent way, you criticize the messenger. You obviously did not read the information because it gives biblical references. I believe your understanding of the way the earth is constructed is obviously rudimentary and to not consider what the article says based on your bias against what is obvioulsy the kind of thing an arrogant, semi-educated person does, to call the information worthless, is just a way to avoid dealing with it on a truly intellectual level.
Are you saying that only highly educated so called Scientists from well respected universities can come up with ideas of any substance and meaning?
Sorry, but I did indeed read the creationist's essay. Even other creationists disagree with his harebrained theory.
And I gave up having a "truly intellectual" discussion with you when you posted the link of the so-called flood expert who is not even a geologist to begin with.
Google the dude, as you apparently do not care where you get your information as long as it suits your argument. Then come back here and tell me what you found out.
Sure, there are those without a high level of education who can "come up with ideas of substance and meaning" but not the dude you linked to.
Alright, at least you made an attempt to give some kind of argument for your belief. I think we can agree to disagree. I choose to hold the theory as a great possibility. I'd like to know your reasons for believing there was no flood.
What flood is this? There is no evidence of a world wide flood, only fairy tales.
For one thing, how did the kangaroos get to the ark? And for another, there isn't enough water to cover the earth in the first place. And last for now, It's difficult to believe an ark would float aimlessly for 40 day and nights, with the deluge described in your link, and end up basically in the same place.
And how did the kangaroos and koalas get back to Australia after the cruise?
Pangea, the earth was one land at one time but broke up over time. Look at a map and you can see that Africa fits well into SA. This was likely done via earthquake but I'm not sure because I wasn't there.
You are avoiding my direct question, why? Do you believe in the myth that life began on earth from some primordial soup where 20 proteins all gathered together in the soup to form a single cell using the sunlight for energy as water flowed over a rock? Or could it be, you are one of those that believe that life started from some visit from aliens somewhere in the universe that have this incredibly high intelligence?
Did you mean to use the word "theory" instead of "myth" in your question? Do you know the difference between the two? I wonder, because you do not see the ancient hearsay accounts of your religion as myth, but you do regard scientific theories as such.
You apparently trust science enough to use it at your convenience, such as the internet and computers you are using to disparage scientific endeavors you do not like. I would also wager you would like an intelligent doctor to treat you rather than an uneducated self taught wannabe. But you entrust your soul to those with no education in the field they are attempting to expound on.
And to answer your "direct question," I do not know how we came to be here. But this doesn't mean some god or another-unless you have some proof there are not many gods-made us. Would you believe me if I said Moe created us?
I do know the difference between myth and theory. Your statement about me not somehow liking science is complete, utterly wrong. I have two science degrees and fully appreciate the value of science. In regard to doctors, I work with several of them and appreciate the knowledge and where doctors do some good, but I also see huge problems where doctors are way out of their knowledge base and create huge problems. in fact, 738,000 + iatrogenic problems killed people in one year. That is doctor induced illnesses using FDA approved drugs for the condition they were admitted to a hospital for. In 10 years of the Vietnam war we lost about 250,000 men, yet in 1 year over 738,000 people were killed by our medical system! And those were only the ones reported and it is known that far more were victims of that system. I really have not seen or heard of very many people being killed by vitamin sales or nutritional therapists. In fact, I have patient after patient becoming healthy as a result of nutritional therapy and getting off drugs of all kinds. Degenerative diseases are NOT a result of a drug deficiency. To think you can cure those types of diseases with drugs is just stupid. Yes, you can treat the symptoms or manage the disease, but that is NOT CURING anything.
I do NOT disparage scientific endeavors that better man-kind or improve our lives. Many of the diagnostic tools being used in medicine has been a great help, but to use those accomplishments and equate them to the devastation of drug developments that have killed close to or more than 1 million people a year is NOT something to be proud of or tout as an accomplishment.
Just like evolutionists who use speciation as proof of evolution beyond speciation, it is ridiculous and falls into the same trap as doctors believing that the improved diagnostic tools or drugs will CURE a person of degenerative disease like diabetes is absurd.
Science degrees from where and for what? I can bet one of the degrees isn't evolution or geology!
Still think you've found the ark? Post us some more of those hilarious links to "real biblical facts".
@Randy Godwin: I remain annonymous, but will tell you I have a degree in Biology & Chemistry with 276 units of college credit and am a certified nutritional therapist with years of study in energetics as they relate to building structures and living organisms and work with several doctors that refer very sick people to me that I get wonderful results.
I studied evolution extensively in getting my biology degree and have looked at the evidence in many textbooks and many other sources and have found them to be incredibly suspect with NO proof, just assumptions and religious beliefs that something happened. I ask you for just ONE proof that any of the 5 categories of evolution I have listed has ANY REAL scientific proof it happened. We all agree, or at least any good scientist will agree that speciation happens. This variation within species can and is backed by good scientific methods and is repeatable and credible. I don't believe anyone can refute that information or facts. There are several things in the bible that verify many real scientific facts we see today. I love science, but not this psueudscience that evolutionists are promoting that is simply ridiculous.
In regard to the ark issue, I still want to investigate that further because what I've found in researching many of the industries that are promoting agenda's, that you have to follow the money to get to the root of what the truth actually is. That site makes lots of claims, but without investigating it further, I hold my opinion. Whatever is the truth is what it is. It does not eliminate any possibility that the ARK existed and it may never be found, but that does not mean it did not exist.
EG, you really can't bust him on anonymous since you are a sock puppet Just saying.
@ PRanj... Here's a hint, if you want him to stop being an a$$ then stop trying to convert him. He actually plays nice during adult-level conversation (I didn't say rational). When he makes a point, accept it instead of becoming defensive. Thus is meaningful discourse accomplished.
Anybody thinking that God didn't drown the whole world, years ago, is clearly delusional!
And He has other things waiting that He's gonna do to those who don't believe.
Thank goodness I am saved.
Your type always remains anonymous, NutEx. I hope you do research better than you did previously with the links you proposed to back your claims. Both were laughable and well known frauds which have been debunked on here before.
But tell me, if you please, why should anyone here believe anything you say, especially since you have looked so foolish with the links you posted and the claims you've made thus far?
We don't know you from Adam's house cat. So why should we listen to you at all?
Wow you are one man against how many atheists here!
You sure have done your homework and dont have to resort to childish babble to get your point across.
David and Goliath comes to mind
God is still on the throne
I'm not an atheist darn it! But his science is flawed.
Um -didnt say everyone
But I do think he's at least offering up a helluva lot more for discussion ,rather than the usual crap IMO
I agree completely. Unfortunately it is unsound evidence that is going to be ripped apart easily. Then the non-believers are gonna get all smug.
The "usual crap," being actual science presumably.
All information is not fact. Including Science.
In fact, isnt a theory something that is unproven?
A lot of them out there,isnt there?
Have you seen, let alone read, any books pertaining to science?
She's correct. A theory is, by definition, both unproven and fallible. As a matter of fact, science doesn't deal in any matters that are not fallible. There would be no need to study the matter. Many theories have been accepted as fact in their time and later disproved.
Heres the thing though.I have never been opposed to Science ,how could someone who beleives in a Creator ever be opposed to learning about defination ,dicoveries etc.
Actually science is an amazing topic ,but like anything in life ,we accept or reject in the end.
One thing I am certain of too is that I dont know everthing, that there is to know ,who does? With that understanding its helpful to remain open to other theories,but accepting a theory does not mean necessarily rejecting Gods reality.
How I see it.
A theory is a rational explanation. A theory fails for two reason, first and foremost that it is not rational. Second a rational explanation doesn't mean that, that should always happen, but only that is one way that can happen, but irrational is that it will never happen. Science does not attempt to prove anything. Its done in a court of law.
Theories do not fail because they are not rational. They fail because they are disproved. All theories are fallible (able to be disproved) because if they weren't they would be fact. Science doesn't study facts and that is quite logical, after all-- what would be the point?
Science also doesn't (shouldn't) study religion because it is at the opposite end of the spectrum. It can't be proven. A scientific study of the existence of God is irrational from the get-go as it is impossible to prove non-existence.
And for the record, science DOES attempt to prove things. That is its purpose. If it didn't, it would be called philosophy. Don't take away from the validity of science in an attempt to defend it.
How do you disprove or prove??? Science study objects and how they interact.
You got that right. Existence cannot be proven, in fact trying to prove existence is irrational, it can only be explained.
Philosophy is the study of concepts, while that of science is objects. Science see nature and attempt to explain in a rational manner. What ever experiment you run, after the experiment you are trying to explain why you got the result, you got. Where does the proof comes in? On the other hand, in a court of law, you need all the proofs to persuade the jury why your version is correct. And you only need to have proven beyond reasonable doubt. In science there is no jury. You are not persuading any one, but explain how that happened, happened, without any contradictions.
Seriously? Um... okay. Lets take medicine for example... Researchers hypothesize that a certain chemical can kill bacteria in the bloodstream. Then they test this hypothesis and form a theory based on the results. Then they give it to a group of patients-usually in a double blind study- If the medicine kills bacteria, they test it again to see if they have the same results. After sufficient clinical trials it is proved that that medicine works. They no longer have to study that drug for that particular reason.
No, existence can be proven. I have a table in my kitchen. I can prove it exists. I'm not sure how I would explain it though.
Wow, not sure how we got into law but okay. Yeah, science needs proof in order to build on knowledge. But you either have enough proof to establish fact (which is the purpose of science), you have a viable theory, or you have a disproved theory. If you are a scientist discussing an idea that can never be proven- you are discussing philosophy (concepts) If you are discussing that which cannot be disproved you are discussing a fact. Anywhere in between is science. Science's job is to eventually reach a definitive answer.
The court analogy is unrelated. Have YOU ever read a science book?
You got it all upside down. Tell me what a "theory" is!
Medicine and technology works by trial and error, not hypothesis and theory. A drug may kill a bacteria based on the particular physiology of the bacteria, which may be known earlier or only after the drug is discovered. Remember how Fleming discovered Penicillin?(Being a medical man myself, I should know more about it, right, how this drugs are tested and all, double-blind, triple-blind....)
Good, Prove your table exists.
Also please tell me what experiment you are doing, to prove its existence.
That was not an analogy. I was telling you were proof is needed, to persuade the jury. In Science we don't persuade, nor we vote, science is all or none, either it is rational or it is not. What one believe after the show is over, is ones own business.
Once more I tell you Science is objective, while proofs are subjective. Its dependent on the observer whether the proof is for or against.
Facts are not assumptions(facts are different from assumptions of fact), they are facts - objective. Earth exist, is a fact(and it exist by definition). There is no proof or disproof over that. Science needs facts, not proof. What is knowledge?
Say objects fall to ground, Science explain why/how it fall, why it didn't go up. There is an explanation. What are you going to disprove there?
What is a concept? You think that which cannot be proven are concepts?
Please read it like this:
Facts are not assumptions(facts are different from assumption/statement of facts), they are facts - objective. Earth exist, is a fact(and it exist by definition). There is no proof or disproof over that. Science needs facts, not proof. What is knowledge?
Objects you describe, describe their properties, give an explanation regarding its relation to other objects, but never prove.
Yes of course.
Have you read any books by Christian authors by any chance?
Jesus and the Intellectual springs to mind. There are of course many other titles to choose from.
You mean other than the bible and explanations of the bible as scientific truth and 10years of catechism classes(I even got a scholarship)?
I stopped considering god as an explanation 10 years before, but have read only 2 atheist books, that to only 6 months before, to know what they says!
Ok then you are about as well read as I am ,possibly less
10 years of what?...ok well that may have pleased your parents ,you and your church leaders ,but I didn't see that as requirement for salvation my friend
oh! I didn't study it to please anybody, in fact I study only to please myself.
What is this salvation, you seem to care too much about?
I wouldn't bother asking this one any questions. You will get nothing but gibberish, attacks on science and an insistence that it loves science - just rejects everything science has to say. Worse than this morning's example.
Famous Scientists (who believed in God)
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic … faith.html
One of the differences between scientific theory and philosophy or religion is that scientific theories are based on the best model that fits a set of experimental details that are repeatable. They are not concocted out of whole cloth with no supporting evidence.
Nothing in the Bible is repeatable and verifiable. That is why it requires faith to accept it. No one is going to change water to wine, or raise a buddy from the dead.
LOLOLOL. Theory is unproven? LOLOLOLOL
Does that make it the equal of religious garbage? Keep fighting for Jesus like wot the bible says.
Sorry you do not understand the difference between scientific theories and religious nonsense - probably the same huh? No actual evidence for either of them, therefore they are the same. No proof for eburlooshun, therefore goddunnit.
Genesis 7:11: In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12 says, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights."
I still want to know abt the spaghetti monster. You know what I think? I think during the flood a tuft of hair fell off of an angel and developed a consciousness of its own. Then when it encountered people they mistook it for a spaghetti monster.
Get it? Angel Hair . . . Spaghetti monster.
Don't you see how the misconception couldve occured?
What I get is that you shouldn't have explained the joke! I was fine with it!
The FSM is an interesting response to the other less visible gods.
Only in America
Oh and theres Angel cake and Devils cake
And they both make you fat, you'd think angelfood would be like carrots and peas or something like that.
Its raining peas and carrots (great title for a childrens book)
Great balls of ....broccouli?.......
Manna from Heaven.
I don't understand evolution but I see the evidence all around; everywhere that I am.
i do not fully understand how my grandma made her yeast bisquets?, Did she understand everything that was going on everytime she took 1/2 of it out of the bowl, she added some of the ingreediences back into the bowl and it kept breatheing, the bowl was full every morning?
My grand MA created bisquits by starting the process.
Fire can be said to be a bad thing ... but necessary in the evolutionary process IF Ya want to eat bisquits.
Sorry guys ... whatever or who ever started the process of evolution ..IS/can be said to be God. Cause a rose by any other name is stil what it is.
Give the strawman a rest, or give him the darned heart already, Earnest!
Actually, it was a brain. And the way he's acting, I don't think he has many to spare.
Oh yeah... that was the lion, right? I could never remember!
Yeh I read all that.
What a gutless way to attack a subject!
You make inane personal comments about me amongst yourselves?
No answers eh?
I was not referring to this thread, I was referring to the religious forums in general which you all follow, where there are plenty of references to scientists exposed for their religious connections and indoctrination, usually at an early age.
He's my hero Earnest... He wants to be a real boy while everyone else is trying to be fake!
"Which you all follow". Uh, no, not all. How do you "know" we do. (I don't)
I know, because I see the other forums and can read.
This is the crux of the problem.
I suggest you do some more research on the ark near Mount Ararat, and while you are at it check out all the other places the ark has been found, all the photos and forgeries.
Mount Ararat has been debunked for about 30 years as I recall!
Much less than science, this is not even good heresay!
But - he accepts it as proof. Should be easy to prove evolution with a fossil or two.
You wish. Fossils don't prove anything genius.
Please study slighty deeper into the field. Then maybe you'll recognize the flaw in your argument..
Alright then Evolution guy, sticking your neck out I see with this one. Let's see just one FOSSIL that proves evolution beyond speciation. Just one. You say it should be easy, then where's your proof.
I keep asking for PROOF and you have NEVER PROVIDED ANY, not one piece of proof for anything you've said. NOT ONE.
Please show us just one or stop posting here with your very stupid remarks that have absolutely no substance or mark of any intelligence whatsoever.
What does that have to do with you never having read the bible. You reject millions of pieces of evidence for evolution and then believe biblical nonsense? This is a theological discussion. Science proves you are full of nonsense. I can see why you are so angry. I would if my dearest beliefs were show to be nonsense.
Tell me where the bible says the earth is ROUND
Here we go again! Millions of pieces of evidence for evolution? Are you aware there is a $250,000 prize for ANYONE that can prove evolution beyond speciation? Just one piece of evidence. No one in 12 years has been able to successfully show that, not one. And you say, for whatever that counts for, that there are "Millions of pieces of evidence for evolution?" Give us one here and I will see that you win the $250,000! How's that for being a winner and showing how intelligent you are?
Come on, let's see the ONE piece of evidence. As I told you prior, we can forget about the 999,999 other ones you claim are there. Just one. Only one. Not two, just one piece of the 1 million pieces you claim or please remove yourself from this forum so we can spend time with intelligent people that have something meaningful to say. You are pitiful.
Where is your explanation of how the age of fossils are done? Where is your explanation of how the ages of the layers of the earth are done? Please show us you at least have some form of intelligence.
Why is it so hard for everyone to see that .... as it has been written....
the lie will walk the earth. unill the end of days.
You are right in that many stories have claimed finding the ark, but the one that has stuck and the country of Turkey has acknowledged as a real find has been made into a national monument. You can make all the claims you want about who the people are that credible or not, the good thing is that anyone, scientist, average Joe, or man on the street can go there, look at the evidence and make up their own mind. Even you could do that.
I will happily put up a million dollars if you can introduce me to your god, how bout that?
Evolution is no longer in question.
I think GOD himself will do that in time. Since "evolution is no longer in question," you should have no problem presenting ONE piece of evidence it is real should you? The $250,000 deal is real and out there for anyone to collect on it. Your $1 million dollar deal is a ridiculous offer. My BELIEF in God is just that, a belief based on my personal relationship with him. What I have learned about things like the flood, that I choose to believe, the way the human body is put together and looking at things evolution simply cannot resolve, the many problems science has in regard to questions about the universe that are just too hard to ignore and evolution just cannot demonstrate those answers, makes me a strong believer in a GOD that created all this. Show me one religion other than Christianity that has 100's of people putting a book together with such consistency. All the other religion in the world that more than one author of the book they use. Mormon was Joeseph Smith, Islam was Mohammad, etc. I choose to study the bible and am always amazed to find how it all fits together with one story.
Evolution is ridiculous on so many levels and yet, you say it is scientific. Alright, let's see the proof using the scientific method that evolution beyond speciation happened. Your statement that evolution is no longer in question is a ridiculous statement on many levels.
Well the million dollars is a real offer, your god is a bronze aged nonsense in my view, and I can't even imagine how you could not conclude that evolution is not supported by a mass of empirical evidence and theories that have put it out of the zone of the impossible invisible hate filled psychotic bronze aged pretend entity.
Please identify what you, specifically YOU, think evolution is. Without clearly defining what you mean, it is impossible for anyone, including you to say what you are saying about a "mass of impirical evidence" relates too. I have taken the time to spell out the 6 categories of evolution for you to choose from:
1 Cosmic evolution is the origin of time, space, and matter, i.e. the big bang
2 Chemical evolution is the origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3 Stellar and Planetary evolution origin of stars and planets.
4 Organic evolution is the origin of life
5 Macro evolution is the changing from one kind into another
6 Micro Evolution are the variations within kinds.
After choosing which ones you believe happened through evolution, then we may be able to start having a reasonable debate here. Until you do that, it is impossible to know what you are talking about.
@Ernest Shub: The problem we have with your $1 million dollar offer is that our belief in GOD is just that, a belief based on many things that we see and here each day. The bible was written by many, many people over several years and has a consistency of message throughout. I know of no other book written like that by so many people that can do that. In fact, ALL other religions of the world typically have a book written by one man for that religion. Those are cults in my view. So my beliefs are based on many things, including science.
Your belief in evolution is NOT BASED ON REAL SCIENCE, only pseudo science of beliefs and assumptions. The only real science you can point to with what you have refered to as "Millions of evidence" is speciation or variation within species. I, as most others accept that concept and embrace it's good science backing up those facts. But your premise that you believe all the other parts of what you call evolution is just a belief and should be called your "Religion," not science because there is NO GOOD SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for it.
So the $250,000 reward that has been posted is real and in 12 years not collected by anyone.
You may like to read this.
http://www.noahs-ark.tv/NAMI-noahs-ark- … -fraud.htm
Not the same discovery at all. The one you are referring to says there is a wooden structure. 4,400 years of sitting up there is NOT going to give you a wooden structure of anything. The oldest tree on earth is 4,200 years old and it is still living or it would be gone long ago. The discovery I'm talking about is NOT ON Mt. Ararat, but way down the mountain from it in Turkey. There are many claims that are not true and I agree with those bogus claims.
So why not post a link to the REAL ark, dude? If it is indeed authentic there should be plenty of links we can examine. And by the way, if you write a few hubs you may even gain a bit of credibility on these forums. You now sound and act like a troll, something we try to discourage here.
Perhaps you are sincere, but don't expect others to take you seriously since you are new here and have done nothing but try to prove biblical myths. Write a profile, write a hub, do something other than attempting to be taken seriously when we have no reason to do so.
At least post a link about the ark so we can debunk it and get it over with. I certainly hope you've visited it personally since you keep telling others they will believe if they go there. Certainly you took a few photos? Or is it the old "I wanted to take some pictures but the Turkish authorities wouldn't allow it" excuse?
I am certainly NOT a troll and the lack of intelligence here is beginning to wear on me. Your statement about biblical myths is cute, but it is just just showing your lack of understanding of biblical facts. More and more digs are unearthing things the bible has in it that just verifies what it talks about. I have not visited the ARK and don't need to because there are plenty of other things in my life that have more than proven that evolution is a ridiculous study. I have two degrees and was indoctrinated into the evolution myth for years. Too many things just didn't make sense and then looking at the specifics has showed me the deceit, lies, and out and out stupid theories about how life began in some primordial soup. I am currently questioning seriously the age of the universe and earth. Things are just not adding up. If the universe is billions of years old, why do we only see 300 supernova rings? We know they happen about every 25 to 30 years. The ORT ring is a myth created to justify why we still see comets that only have about a maximum of 10,000 years. No one has seen this ORT cloud and yet it is an explanation of convenience. Why are there no deserts on earth older than 4,000 years? Why is the oldest tree less than 4,200 years old? Why are oil drillers in the Tundra finding 300 ft. tall trees, upside down under 1,000 feet of permafrost? The questions go on and on, with no answers from science. lol. The biggest farce I've seen lately is this magnetic reversal. The only thing we know for sure is that the electromagnetism is reduced about 40% in the last 1,000 years or so. To explain this, we are being told there is some kind of reversal that is going to happen, but that has never been seen or shown to have happened, only someone theorizing that it did or if not, my goodness, the age of the earth may not be what they think it is. GOOD SCIENCE is not being practiced there, just some "Religious belief" that reversal happens. That my friend is a myth!
Oh, by the way, here is a website for you to view the information on the ark: http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah%27s_ark.htm
Cripes! That is the funniest post I have seen. You still didn't tell me where it says the earth is ROUND in the bible. I looked and I just can't find it in amongst all the other SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
You are either truly ignorant or just a troll. I haven't been able to figure out which you are, but either way, you are just worth my time.
So - you don't know where the bible says the earth is round then. Because you seemed certain this is what it said and this was a scientific fact.
How odd. I will help you out in that case - as you have obviously never read the bible. The bible does not say the earth is round. It says the earth is a circle. A circle is two dimensional.
And as your scientific knowledge seems to be on a par with your biblical knowledge - the earth is actually an oblate spheroid.
Hey Evolution Guy, you'll get a good laugh on this one if you havent seen it already. Purely for amusement I assure you.
http://luciferianliberationfront.org/st … l#creation
So is it the one at Durupinar?
It's at the village of Uzengili within the township of Dogubeyazit.
Uzen Gili was properly debunked way back in 1992
Glanced at the site and looks credible, but I want to review it in more detail. If the report is true and the site has been debunked it only means that the site is not Noah's ark. If doesn't mean the ark did not exist, just that site is not it. Thanks for the information and I will check it out further. Wyatt is not the most credible guy, but and is controversial amongst many Christians as well, but until these things are fully understood and checked out, I want to hold my opinions.
See, if you had posted a link to the site in the beginning we could have dismissed it immediately as this site has been debunked by many different scholars, both christian and scientific.
And you were encouraging others to go visit an obvious scam which you BELIEVED was really the ark. And you are suggesting WE are the unintelligent posters on this forum?
The lack of knowing about a site is not a sign of not being intelligent. Believing in myths such as evolution and saying it is backed up by science that has no proof, no ability to apply good scientific method is a lack of intelligence. If I am wrong, I admit it and am a truth seeker. Because the site apparently debunked the other site does not mean the ark did not exist, only that that particular site may not be credible, nothing more.
If the universe is as old as some believe to be 14 billion or more years old, why have we not seen more Super Nova remnants than about 300? We see them form about every 25 to 30 years.
So we saved you from getting your butt kicked if someone on here were actually stupid enough to have believed your assertions and made the sojourn you asserted would make them believers in the ark.
Perhaps that is why you hide behind an alias when you make these moronic claims on these forums. You and Jack are only the latest of many, many, such claimants of "gods proof" who have posted these same stupid scammy sites which have been debunked numerous times.
For someone who doubts the intelligence of others you sure don't research your beliefs well at all. So far you have submitted two known frauds to back up your certainty. Got anything dealing with reality you can point to?
I have done some preliminary investigation of the ANCHOR STONE issue from the site that is supposed to debunk the ark site. The site I went to and looked at that was referenced and find it to be highly questionable as to the conclusions it drew. The debunking site claims that the so called anchor stones were some kind of celestial observation stones, but they carefully word their conclusion by saying it "Could be" those types of stones. Interestingly enough, the stone shape is the same as those anchor stones used in the Red Sea area and there is NO KNOWN ORIGIN for them. The idea that they could not be anchor stones because a rope would have broken due to the weight is just an assumption with no testing of that idea.
This is the kind of thing that I would wonder if you are looking at this would put doubt in your mind about those conclusions. It certainly did mine, no matter what side of the argument I was on. Do you concur?
Why would there be an anchor stone for a natural formation of rocks, Nutex? The outline has been proven to be stone, not petrified wood.
Face it, you posted a bogus claim and refuse to admit it. Why not give us a rough estimate of how many scholars, both religious and not, have debunked this site.
Are you disturbed by the fact that I am questioning the site you claim debunks the other site? Don't you think we should all question both sites to see where the truth lies? The question about the anchor stones is because of some research I'm doing on anchor stones.
The debunking site indicates the stones "May be" celestial observation stones, not anchor stones and the primary argument is that ropes would break if used on the stones because the holes are made such that the rope would not hold them. But there is NO tests that were done apparently, to prove that statement. It's typical of many of the so called scientific sites where assumptions are made and then claimed as fact.
The specific anchor stones used in ancient times greatly resemble the stones found at that site and were used near the RED SEA, but history does not show the origin of those stones. This brings to question the credibility of your site being used to discredit the other site.
Yes, there are many other things that need to be investigated more closely to see about credibility. Don't you agree that your site you used to debunk the other one needs just as much scrutiny? Or do you just believe it because it says its so?
Since there seem to be no actual QUESTIONS on here, I guess I'm off, guys. See ya.
Dude, I'm on here to convert people so they don't go to Hell/to help out fellow Christians if they have questions. You're not.
Jakob, you seemed like a nice guy, up until that post. You're here to convert? To save us from hell? And you want to be left to do it in peace? Are you serious?
The best thing I can say is give up while you're behind. You are only going to lose ground now that you've stated your purpose. You can look everywhere on this site and I doubt you'll find a non believer that doesn't know as much, or more, about your good book as you do.
The reasons for non belief are a little more complicated than not being afraid of your nonsensical threats of hell.
Sorry that I want to save you from eternal torment. Gosh. If I ever go on a walk with you guys in the woods, I won't tell you if a poisonous snake's about to bite you. I know nonbelief doesn't hinge on fear of Hell, but it's one of the things that tips it.
Ah the passive aggressive threats of eternal torment come out at last. LOLOL Your religion is based on fear. I can almost smell your fear sweat through my computer screen.
Snakes are real. I have seen and touched those personally. And the poisonious ones are a real danger. God and Hell, on the other hand, have not ever been seen.
You are comparing something physically real to something, that at best, can only be claimed as spiritually real.
They've been seen before. In fact, all the people who after Christ who were non-Christian and have died have seen Hell. The Bible speaks of people seeing God many times.
Bible is a book written many years ago and can't be proved. And for all those who have died after christ going to hell...prove that...what about all of those before christ who died? where did they go? You cannot prove any of that. It is purely a spiritual thing...it can only be assumed or "felt". It can not be proven. Which is why I don't publicly claim what I believe, I can't prove any of it, I only know how I believe things. And I don't claim anything that I believe to be "truth or fact" because if it was then everyone would be able to see and feel the exact same things as I do and they don't.
The Bible isn't clear about what happened to the souls before Christ. Most believe they went to Heaven or Hell based on righteousness. R u Jewish? If u don't believe something is fact, you don't believe it at all. You can't know what someone thinks or feels unless they tell you, and even then they can lie.
Great! Then you must have accomplished great things in your life if you expect others to accept your opinion of the afterlife or interpretation of your god's message. How about telling us why we-or anyone else for that matter- should believe anything you opine about your beliefs.
Are you a biblical scholar, scientist, physicist, geologist, etc. or merely a fundie hoping someone will actually believe your nonsense? I would bet on the latter!
Why am I wrong just because I don't have a degree? I believe the same things as nutritionexpert (he's got science credentials) and Martin Luther (in case you don't know he's the FOUNDER OF THE PROTESTANT CHURCH, and one of the best theologians of all time), so if at least one of them are right, I'm right.
I think that most Christians who say they are Christians who don't seem to know much about it is because they may be new Christians and haven't had a lot of time to study and learn.
I see a lot of different opinions here...what do all of you think of ecumenism? And do you know what is behind it?
Honestly, in theory it would be peachy. In practice, it would be a nightmare. The first problem would be "Who's church?" With the pull of conservative Christians vs. the catholic church one of them would surely come out on top. Neither is a particularly progressive group.
Secondly, it would give the church too much power. Large groups of unified Christians throughout history have tended to want to go "converting" when they weren't fighting with themselves.
Thirdly, a unified church would leave very little room for cooperation with other religions and would likely be horrifically intolerant of cultural differences.
And don't even get me started on the amount of political pull the church would have.
Bad, Bad, Bad idea.
Most of the people become believers not by choice but by compulsion. You are born to the Catholic parents, you are a Catholic. You are born to a Protestant family, you are a Protestant. So it is obvious many people do not know properly about the faith they belong, not only the Christians.
So If I was born in a garage ,would that make me a car ?
That is the difference between Religion and Christianity.
If I was indoctrinated as some people like to toot about, then I would be a Presbyterian or a Mormon ,since that is how my parents were influenced.
But I chose Christianity,and I have friends in a few different churches and a good many who don't go to church.
One of my neighbours is an atheist, and we chat about things,comfortable enough to respect each others points of view on God/no god etc. We are courteous and help each other out from time to time.
I'm wondering about all of the supression and opression in the world, about all of the innocent lives being taken everyday, about the floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and fires....what do christains have to say that a loving god would allow such things to happen to people he profess to love?
That same loving God loves his people so much he gave them the 10 Commandments !
We as a society have trouble even obeying one or two of them these days!..let alone 10.
When the world and its problems of this world (crime ,etc) turn to S h i t...the World like a spoiled 2 yr old turns ,looks for someone to blame (seldom themselves) and whine to God....Look what happened wahhh... why did you let it happen?
"Told ya" what," GUY? You haven't told us anything of substance here. You still can't tell us what you do believe, only what you say you don't believe! lol. You are like an empty shell waiting to be put in the ground and so arrogant that you believe you know everything. If you say you don't know everything, how much of everything do you know? Would you ever step down from your high horse and say you might not know everything? And now, if you do admit that, don't you think GOD just may be in that part of everything you don't know?
I remember you saying you don't know how life began on earth. Is that the only thing you don't know? Let's assume you are ignorant of biology for a moment. When the first human cells start dividing, what starts that division? You know, when the groove forms in those cells and the beginning of the spinal cord appears and the light energy that initiates transcription where DNA, the cyrstaline salt sends an electromagnetic energy to the messenger RNA. How did evolution cause that biofield of biophotons to appear? And how did that messenger RNA create the enzymes to send to the Ribosomes to create that first action? Magic? Survival of the fittest? And did woman evolve at the exact same time as man so they could reproduce? Magic?
What say you? How did that happen? I would think all that should put DOUBT in your mind about your NON-BELIEF, but clinging to that ridiculous belief in evolution that has NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF whatsoever seems like believing in the spaghetti monster that somehow just showed up on earth that you do some how believe.
GOD spoke all this into existence and to limit his power is to somehow reduce your NON BELIEF and your belief in something that is far more difficult to believe in the the world of the bizzare. You cannot give us a single proof that ANYTHING evolved beyond the variation of species where a dog becomes a dog that looks different. You cannot even pick any of the categories of evolution I've posed to you and say you believe those.
We all agree that speciation happens. Look at the different people, black, white, yellow, but they are all the same race. The human race. All of the so called evidence for evolution has been debunked so many times it's pitiful. Look at the human feet they put on Lucy! lol. What a joke that find was. Piltdown man, Nebraska man, all deceit and lies. Neanderthals were human they have now found. Giants, with massive strength. Why didn't evolution keep going with that one? Survival of the fittest didn't work out so well there did it.
"Told ya." What kind of answer is that?
You can't explain where we came from, you can't explain why even with fusion you cannot make hydrogen progression beyond lead, how genetics could somehow increase or reduce the number of chromosomes to create a higher form of animal, so how can you sit there in your arrogance and say you believe in evolution? What do you actually believe? Something made up to show GOD didn't do it? Is that what you really believe?
It seems you believe there is NO GOD because you can't prove it, but there is NO EVOLUTION because you can't prove it either, so where does that leave you? EMPTY SHELL, with no hope of everlasting life, no reason to be moral, and DARKNESS when you die. Pitiful.
So the existence of a god is merely theory also? Unless of course, you have proof there is a god. I would enjoy seeing proof of any god or gods. Can you prove there aren't hundreds of gods? Many from the time period of the biblical stories believed there was more than one god.
My premise is a belief based on various information. Because there are so many authors of the bible and it has a consistency of story throughout makes me believe it is far more credible than a story about a bunch of gods. The bible story begins with creation. ALL of the other religions I know of have one author of a book and one man that heads the cult.
Your science you use to prove evolution is ridiculous if you are a true scientist. You cannot use the scientific method to prove any of that evidence. In fact, when you do use good scientific methods, it debunks it all. The only real science being used is that used on speciation or variations of the species.
$250,000 is waiting for you to show that evidence. I am NOT saying science proves GOD, but you are saying science proves evolution, so PROVE IT.
As far as I know, I've never stated "science proves evolution." Nutex. Perhaps you might point out one of my posts saying so. I think you've gotten me confused with another of your knowledgeable forum antagonists.
And you are once more mistaken in your assertion the bible has so many authors. Many biblical scholars feel several of the so-called "Gospels according to" were written by the same person.
And this was long after the whole Jesus thing the Old Testement is merely plagiarized stories taken from other religions and cults. The whole "Jesus son of God and a virgin" was taken from a much older Egyptian religious cult.
For snakes sake, do a little research will ya?
I know about those other stories, etc., but your assumption that one person wrote many of the gospels is bizzare, based on extensive understanding of many scholars I've actually spoken to about early translations etc. I believe you need to do more research. "The old testament is merely plagiarized stories?" If you take the time to research the various ways the bible was copied etc. and put together, i think you will find your belief is highly questionable at best.
People are funny...or is it fickle. If God don't stop things like floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and tornadoes, He is bad. Yet, when He involves Himself in our lives, He's meddlesome. Make up your mind.
So why can't He meddle into the lives of the poor, starving, dying children?
Yet, I guess He meddles in your life. How special!
Your worldview is COMPLETELY insane!
When MEGALOMANIA is on display in high definition while the capacity to see it is entirely missing, you have a fundie.
Fundies of all persuasions need to be put on an Island somewhere with lots of volcanoes so they can exercise their omnipotence trying to pray the volcanoes in to submission and leave the sane to get on with straightening out the mess they made.
you want proof of God? ok but your not going to like it... I cold take you on a journey of people who have witnessed miracles and healing but of course you would have a counter, you know all the lines I'm sure... belief... or circumstances... or whatever, of course you could look at your hand the next time it gets cut and reason the hundreds of chemical processes that are required to allow blood to coagulate. but you'd probably say this was evolution never mind that scientist disproved evolution 40+ years ago please see http://www.thetruthproject.org/ and the only people pushing it are Hitler minded power control religious fanatics above the the 'new world order' leadership. I can tell you of how my Daddy answers prayers for me contrary to circumstances, for example I had a lob watering the grass and my boss was out and it was hot so the grass was dying so I asked God to water it, I went home and checked the whether report and it said hot dry (no rain) for the next 7-10 days, and then that night it rained and it rained for ten days every day until my boss got back. or I could tell you of the little boy in Co Springs who was healed of an incurable disease and went to school & was telling his friend of God and his friend said "you cant prove God" then he said "yes I can" and he told him of how elijah the profit built an alter and poured water on it and called fire down from heaven and the boy said I can't do that at school but I'll build a pile of rocks and put a stick under it and ask God to send a bird to pick the stick out and he did and a bird flew down and picked the stick out but you don't really want to know do you ? it is too easy to ignore all the evidence of God isn't it? see Andrew Wommack Ministries for verification of the story of the little boy, or I could tell you of Andrew Wommack himself who was called one night and told his son was dead and he said, "no he is not"! and drove to the hospital only to find as he spoke the words that his son sat up alive... or I could tell you of how I died in 1969 and the church got together and prayed and I came back from dead. Do you really want to know the truth or are you just being sarcastic because I'd be glad to share all the truth with you! there is more do you really want to know?
There has been plenty of evidence supplied, in the form of religious belief as it relates to psychology, anthropology, history, language use, context, theology, feasibility, likelihood, peer reviewed scientific theories and more, but none of them have been debated, they are written off as wrong cos goddunnit.
Here is a bit of light reading, but as I have said before, if you wish to understand the subject well enough to argue it, simply view some of Lawrence Krauss.
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