Can you be spiritual or be a believer of God apart from religion or the Church?
You cannot know the true God which is being spiritual except apart from religion or the church..
Unless the church is wrong to some degree.
You do not need a man( any Church) to tell you who the true God is
Just ask Him
..Not just a man ,shame on you
Son of Man and Son of God
He was neither of those two you mentioned. But, I'm sure you'd love to use some sort of scripture to back up your mentioning of it, however, just like in Court, religion is useless.
He is both of those, and no I wont type words that you will deny.
Choice is a good thing, wouldn't you agree?
Or are you someone who says its a good thing ,but only if I agree with you
BOTH your statements are incorrect.
Jesus was a man. He was the son(bastardized) of a man.
"Son of Man" claims he was the son of all humankind. That would be wrong.
"Son of God" claims there is a god. That would also be wrong, because it's based on a pure assumption that a god actually exists.
Yes, choice exists and yes it's a good thing. Just your statements are meaningless.
You are incorrect to say my statements are meaningless ,when what you really mean is they are meaningless to you ,much like your opinion are to me
Bothers you Cags that I chose Christ over humanism.
Get over it
Opinions? Beliefs? You're no different than any other believer- irrationally funny.
No. It bothers me you lack any real sort of self respect.
I don't need to get over it. You need to learn to see past yourself. Apparently, you cannot.
Unless you were there 2000 years ago and heard from Jesus lips. You don't know even first hand, maybe third or fourth or 100th time handed down translation.
Jesus is the Sun of God, like we are all under the sun of God, like all God's children, in which the Sun of God make sense.
Not sure why you said that?
You needed to scroll back to see what all was said.
Just because someone disagrees with someone ,I do no think its right to be rude or overly critical
I do understand things change slightly over years -even 2,000,but the main message has not changed.
Cagsil YOU have a problem!! Good luck!
Absolutely yes. Most churches are earthbound creations, socially, culturally and even politically motivated. That's why there's so many of them. True spirituality comes from something within yourself connecting with some other unknown force.
That is the best way to be Spiritual
Jesus is not seeking a church but rather people who are humbly seeking Him.
Amen to that!! I left the church when I was in my 20's and have found I'm actually a better person since leaving.
..Good for you
Its often difficult to find a group of people (Christians) who will stand alongside you, in worship,learnng and simply to be encouraging and friendly.
That to me is what Jesus meant by loving and helping one another most of all.
I don't think one can believe in spirit or soul without religion; one who believes in spirits presupposes that one is following a religion.
You wouldn't know about any gods without having first heard about them from some religion or church. Most probably believe in the god of which their families were raised.
What is being spiritual? How's that defined?
Spiritual is a belief that there's a grain of truth at the bottom of it all. Trying to connect and find it. No god required, but an assumption that consciousness is connected and eternal, at some level. Or, at least, that's the way I see it.
I'm sorry, but that didn't help me understand it one bit.
I didn't think it would. I thought it was an odd question since I assumed everyone had a definition for spiritual.
I decided I'd answer to see what type of response I got.
If everyone had their own definition of spiritual, or any word for that matter, the term would be redundant.
If the term was redundant, then we are back at square one dealing with gods and religions, again.
Now, I would have to disagree with you on that one. Almost any word that doesn’t define something concrete has its nuances. And even if it does define something concrete, the images that come to each mind when the word is spoken vary. So, on that count you are wrong.
As far as comparing spirituality with religion, that would be akin to saying that atheism is a religion. Spirituality is an individual philosophy and an individual experience. Not something one is looking to share with others, build a following around, or collect donations for.
Hey Emile, you at it again.
Atheism IS a religion, it's just a disorganized religion. There are certain countries around the globe that recognize Atheism as a religion.
So, on that account. You are wrong.
I stand corrected. Atheism is a religion. I'll try to remember that.
If atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby. Or perhaps I missed the sarcasm on that one.
Ok. Now I'm getting dizzy. Cagsil said it is. You say it isn't. I didn't think it was, but I'm not an atheist so it isn't my call.
But, to answer your question. I was being flippant, not sarcastic. I don't care one way or the other.
Not collecting stamps is a hobby? That's just plain stupid.
Atheism, if you look at any consensus for what types of religions exist, YOU WILL FIND Atheism listed.
Since a religion is marked by beliefs and practices in commonality, as a fellow atheist, that would mean we share the same beliefs in the fundamental nature of how everything came to be. Somehow I doubt that.
Guess what? Atheists are united in disbelief, believing in no gods does not mean we therefore believe in anything. There is no philosophy that binds us together. There is no commonality.
Secondly, religions are demarked by their practices and rituals, as a practicing atheist, I'm curious to know what that involves exactly? Given the non-position atheism actually is, what exactly are you worshipping or communing with?
Saying something is "plain stupid" just because it is listed somewhere does NOT mean it is true. I suggest you look up what the word itself means and refute my logic and not just slander and throw peanuts without formulating a thought of your own.
As far as I'm concerned the analogy stands.
I'm not an Atheist.
The philosophy that binds the Atheism religion is the "disbelief". It's just not organized like other religions.
It's ritualistic in the actions of spouting it's disbelief.
It's stupid to say "not collecting stamps is a hobby". It's relation or correlation with religion is stupid.
Irrational as it is, I guess it would. But, good show for you.
While trying to search for some examples of those countries that recognize atheism as a religion (found none), I ran across this article that says it's a myth. Would you disagree with the authors arguments? If so, what would be your response?
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/a … ligion.htm
I would tell them to look at the U.S. for listed religions of citizens.
Under Religion in the latest Census ,I know my neigbour put Athiesm under 'Other'.
Perhaps searching Census stats might be helpful or something more specific ,then look for breakdowns etc.
Can you give me any examples of words that don't define something? I can't just take your word for it.
What philosophy and what individual experience?
You still have not explained anything.
Let's use snow as an example. Many people have experienced snow, yet those who may have lived their lives in the tropics have not. We would then advise them to travel to a country where it snows all the time so they can experience it.
So, if I ask you to help me experience spirituality, you would advise me to ... ?
I would never expect you to take my word for anything. But, I’ll have to elaborate on the answer I gave, not your question. I can’t imagine a word that doesn’t define anything. I think the exact statement was something concrete.
Words that define something concrete. One as simple as horse. Yes, we both know it is a four legged creature. We both would agree on many things that have to do with the animal. But my perception of the horse can be radically different from yours. You say horse and. you might see a Selle Francais and I might envision an Appaloosa. You could be thinking dressage whereas endurance riding comes to my mind. We both said horse, but there’d be a drastic contrast in the images our minds brought up. So, if you were talking about how relaxing it was to ride, I’d be thinking you were either bragging, or lying.
Words that don’t define concrete things are even harder. Words that describe emotions, feelings or concepts. We would use the same words to describe them, but the way we perceive the definitions could be completely different. If you said you are starving because you haven’t had anything to eat in two hours and I am so poor that I frequently go days without eating, my definition of the word and yours would be radically different. Wouldn’t you agree?
As far as your questions on spirituality. If I were to share my thoughts on an individual experience it ceases to be mine. It becomes ours, in a way. But your example of snow is a good one. I can tell you everything I know about snow. How it feels, the shape of a snowflake, what it looks like on the forest after a storm and how it tastes. But that doesn’t give you the experience of snow. You are right. You’d have to be there.
So, if you ask me to help you experience spirituality, I have to respond; If it’s something you are interested in, you go it alone. But, that’s just me. There are a lot of people here wiser than I am so I’m sure if you hang out long enough you’ll get a lot of more helpful advice.
The word horse defines a genus of Equus, being different to defining a donkey or a zebra. If you say Selle Francais or Appaloosa, that defines a breed of horse. We would agree on the defined term horse over that of donkey or zebra and not Selle Francais or Appaloosa.
You aren't using the term starving correctly when you are just hungry. If you were starving, I would assume you had nothing to eat at all. Period.
Going it alone without any explanation doesn't mean anything.
Excellent points all round, I'm adoring the reasoning on all sides. I have an example I'd like to throw you way ATM.
Ironically enough, what does Atheism define? Given that in-of-itself it is a definition based on a false presumption.
That is, that believing in God is our natural and default state of being. If, we accept, as I postulate, that we are not born with an inherent spiritual belief (but are probably predisposed to it instead), isn't Atheism something of a non-position and therefore devoid of meaning? Wouldn't it be both redundant and meaningless therefore to profess a non-belief?
To summarize, wouldn't the term atheist be utterly meaningless to a toddler (thats, a long shot, but I hope you see what I'm getting at).
Putting an "a" in front of theism should be the same as putting an "a" in front of typical; atypical, which means "not typical"
Atheism = not theism, or maybe more grammatically correct; no theism. Looks pretty straight forward from that perspective.
I don't agree with the analogy. Atypical still creates meaning. For example:
"He was dressed atypically for work today." Which conveys the suggestion that his dress-code is different than it usually is. The difference here is that atypical is still inextricably linked to a very real (in this case tangible) manifestation. Furthermore it also evokes something of his character, and possibly even mindset.
Claiming to be an atheist is only a position that carries meaning IF we accept that that person claiming to be an atheism is choosing not to believe. The point I was trying to make is that while a religious person may find meaning in the definition, someone who has been an atheist his entire life does not need to state that he is one in the first place. It is up to those with a belief to define what it is that makes them believe in the first place.
It's about perspective. In the same way a child cannot be born a Christian, he cannot claim to be an atheist because it would be a meaningless and redundant position to hold.
Dressing atypical means dressing not typical, or is there some other definition I'm not aware?
If this is all about perspective or claiming this or that about belief, why did you ask for a definition?
Whether a child claims atheism or not, it doesn't detract from the definition.
I'm unable to answer your last post, so I'll continue here.
Dressing not typically is a relative term. The definition lacks meaning without interpretation. You cannot possibly be satisfied with that definition of it, since it begs the question, "atypical of what?". It does not survive as a stand alone entity.
I did not ask for a definition, quite the reverse. I'm saying that the term atheist is redundant and meaningless (not to everyone, but to a person who has never contemplated the existence of a supreme being, it is redundant --which is what I mean by perspective).
If anything, I'm calling the definition into question. Which also addresses your third concern.
Yes, I would agree that dressing atypical is relevant to a persons typical dress code, so is the term typical. That's probably where and when the term gets used. It still means the same thing, though, to not dress typically.
If the term atheist is redundant and meaningless for some but not for others, it still doesn't detract from the definition one way or the other.
The term 'snow' is meaningless and redundant for those who live their lives in the tropics.
By all means, call the definition into question. I would wonder for what purpose, though?
You missed the point. The point is that words have broad and varied definitions. Pinpointing the exact intent of the speaker goes beyond simple definitions. You have to understand where their starting point is. And the angle they are headed. You cannot say (well you could, but it might be for simple argument's sake) that there is a meeting of the minds during every conversation. Words used by you will not always be interpreted as you intended.
As to the definition of starving. You and I would agree. But, the word is certainly used to describe a multiple number of stages of hunger.
As to spirituality. You are obviously looking for my take on it? Why? I feel as if I'm being set up here. Going it alone doesn't mean grabbing a candle and chanting in a quiet room. It means it is an individual philosophy brought about by study in the directions you choose. You follow your own heart and your own thoughts on the subject.
Whatever broad and varied definitions you've said exist of a defined word, you haven't shown any examples that adequately support what you said.
Starving means without food. It is not defined as a stage of hunger.
I still get nothing from your explanation of spirituality. Follow my own heart? Individual philosophy? What does that have to do with spirituality?
I think it only fair to point out that whether I have, or have not, adequately supported my assertion is a matter of perception.
On the discussion of spirituality, you are an interesting fellow. An atheist wanting to be spiritual. Where would he start??????....... Oh, I know. I began with the assumption that consciousness might be connected and eternal. You could begin with exploring the possibility of that.
Perception, maybe, but by definition, not.
How do I go about exploring that consciousness might be connected and eternal?
Or, are you going to say I need to follow my heart and go it alone, again?
No, now that you've dragged me onto this path I'm afraid I'll have to continue.
Once you've decided on what you think it all boils down to, then you set out to prove, or disprove it to yourself. You reached for it, body and mind. You read, listen, meditate and learn. And, adjust your course as the facts roll in. I don't think it's possible to be truly spiritual if you ignore facts that are contradictory to your assumption, but I may be the minority opinion on that one.
I've decided WHAT boils down to WHAT? I've reached for WHAT? I've read, listened, meditated and learned WHAT?
Have you got anything else to go on?
Hey. We already agreed that you were going to work on the eternal existence of consciousness concept. You might have to do some memory exercises first.
Actually, religion might be a good start for you. Learn to focus, then you can move on to spirituality. Baby steps. Baby steps.
How do I work on the eternal existence of consciousness concept?
You're going in circles, we're back to religions and gods, again.
We are not. This has nothing to do with the concept of god. This has to do with our connection to each other, and everything else in the universe. A collective consciousness.
Did you just ask me questions so we could argue the points? I'm starting to have some suspicions.
Round and round in circles we go. You work on that for a while and when you got something, let me know. So far, you're explanations are meaningless word salads.
You are the one going round and round. Had you simply told me you were going to argue even the simplest points we could have stopped this before it started.
Had you just provided an explanation rather than word salads, there would be no point in arguing.
It was a necessary defense mechanism. There was no doubt where the conversation was headed.
What is spirituality? What kind of a question is that? If not simply an attempt to create an attack opening. I thought I was doing well, by keeping you at arm's length. You were left to nothing but your own word salads also.
It is a question begging an answer from those who say spirituality is something. Duh.
Keeping me at arms length? Are you a child?
Do you always blame others for your own shortcomings?
Again. All a matter of perception.
Why ask a question when you are not interested in the response? That was why I pinged you in the first place.
I kept you at arm's length as I gauged exactly what your purpose was. I'm not anyone's sensei. I made that clear from the start.
And if you are going to use terms like duh. It would be better not to bring up the subject of children. That'll get the attack turned back on you fairly quickly with some that are grasping for ammunition.
Actually, I wasn't blaming you for anything; I was simply pointing out that I had known your game from the beginning.
It just would have been much easier if you have told me from the start you were paranoid delusional rather than acting that way throughout the discussion.
Hey dude... you are out of line!!! No personal name calling or attacks are allowed at hubpages. You've been reported.
yes Mr Troubled man, you are a very naughty boy !
You would condone his behavior. I am not so sure that the two of you are one and the same.
By the way, your posts are getting to be predictable.
Nothing he has done is bad behaviour except in your imaginary primary school. and predictablity comes with knowing what I am talking about, I may not be right but I do know what it is about before I comment, an apparent failing that you might consider taking up.
After going back through just a few pages of your posts, it's obvious your behavior is not exactly stellar, I easily found several posts in which you call others names and attack them.
Might be best to just mind your own business. Thanks.
Hey why insult one person ,when you can insult two huh
I think this started when she thought he insulted me, which he didn't. So, he's probably only insulted one person, assuming his post to intimate evolution was meant as an insult.
I have read many of troubled mans posts,in particular absorbed the last page or so, and find his manner arrogant and condescending.
Could be why he is troubled
Of course I relise that is just my opinion.
Exactly, I did not insult anyone as it's obvious that IntimatEvolution does not know what an insult looks like considering she does it herself but winds up reporting others anyways.
So, you find me arrogant and condescending and you decided to toss in an insult as well?
What is with you people? Do you act this way in real life or just on these forums?
Excuse me? I don't call people names. But your response tells me that you have other accounts here. Apparently you have been banned before. Interesting indeed.
My response is based on reading your past posts and seeing for myself your behavior which is contrary to your post here:
"Hey dude... you are out of line!!! No personal name calling or attacks are allowed at hubpages."
Rather than being a hypocrite, just mind your own business. Thanks.
You seem a bit slow. Is there something we all should know? Are you enough to be on here? Are you 18? Lie about age perhaps? Oh no.... I hear you're a banned hubber who has snuck back in here. So whose being a hypocrite? My response was in no way an insult or personal attack. No way. By all means report me if you believe I have called you an insulting name or made an insulting reference to your personal character.
Not only do you attack people and call them names, you lie, too.
As I sit here watching your exchange with Emile and IntimatEvolution, I must say that your actions are less than honorable.
Not to mention, you've managed to hi-jack this thread for your own selfish troubled reasons.
Apparently, you're an angry person and deeply troubled. Not to mention, you also apparently haven't read the rules to the forums.
On top of all you've managed to do so far with your time on HP, I am curious to wonder WHY you are here to begin with?
You've written no hubs and posted more often than I did when I first started. And, it also seems that you've come to HP with the intent of mocking those who are in the religious thread and nowhere else.
Why don't you either get back on topic or go write some hubs.
Why don't you just mind your own business. I have read the rules and you have broken them many times yourself, and you sit there mocking and insulting people in religious threads, too. Another hypocrite.
Because, I don't have to mind my own business, considering this is a public forum.
The point was made for you to either go write some hubs or GET BACK on topic.
Mocking and insults are part of life dude. Both are subjective to a person's individual perception.
As for my being a hypocrite, not exactly. Yes, I have been banned for breaking the rules, which apparently YOU didn't comprehend when you read them.
Seriously Troubled, you need help.
Just as the point was made for you to mind your own business. Amazing how that works.
If mocking and insults are part of life, then you are indeed a hypocrite for berating me.
I comprehend the rules just fine. You might have comprehended too when you broke them and were banned, several times according to the thread in which you and the moderator were engaged.
I see you ended with another insult, you never learn, do you?
Yo DUDE, what part of "It's a public forum" did you NOT understand?
DUDE, I am not berating you. I am simply trying to get YOU BACK ON TOPIC. Or are you learning impaired? Or maybe you have a comprehension problem?
Your actions say otherwise. But, apparently you're blinded by ego....which is the case for many people like yourself.
And, you're point? Oh yeah, that's right, you make no point...just berate others.....or you do it to listen to yourself. Which would bring us back around to your ego again.
Tell you that you need help IS NOT an insult. But, then again you apparently have a comprehension problem.
Yo DUDE, what part of mind your own business did you NOT understand?
No, you're not, you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing.
More petty insults. You never learn.
The point is that you're a hypocrite which is why you should mind your own business rather than parading around these forums flexing your muscles.
I can see why you were banned so often.
You sound as if you are very intuitive.
But, he did name himself A Troubled Man. He is an open atheist, so he isn't troubled spiritually. If he was physically ill, he would have called himself something else. So he must be psychologically troubled. I have no problem giving the psychologically handicapped some latitude. I do try to be nice. I may be agnostic, but I'm not an athiest, for heaven's sake.
I am stunned by the behavior of you people. Where do you get off saying such things? What is your problem?
I demand an apology immediately.
An apology? I'm not very good at those. How about a truce.
No. Not a truce. I can't imagine that would hold for any length of time.
I'm stumped. And a little confused. Why demand an apology from me? I think it might be argued that I'm the victim here.
You do realize I'm not a christian. I don't have to turn the other cheek. Ask the other two for an apology. You might get it faster.
Okay, so you insult people and aren't very good at apologizing to them. That figures.
Still trying to reflect back at you here ATM. But, you're making it hard. You're all over the place. I'm getting dizzy already.
I tell you what. You point out where you think I actually insulted you, not where you pasted sentences together to make it look like I insulted you and we'll talk about it.
Emily you have nothing to call a "truce" for. And, you certainly are the victim of his slanderous remarks.
I must say you have a new fan. I certainly enjoy your commentary.
I was just kidding with him, as I assume he was with us. There won't be a truce.
And thanks for the compliment.
I have been the victim of your insults and lies. But, it's okay if you do it, right?
What a hypocritical thing to post.
I am truely concerned for you. Something is not right with your dictionary, maturity level or something.... It is quite clear you are being deceptive.
How nice of you to do so, I will definitely remember to return the favor when it is appropriate.
Now now. That's short sighted. I'm not paranoid delusional. I was achieving my long term goal with you in this conversation.
As I stated in the beginning, one of the difficulties with words is how differently each person interprets their meanings.
I stated that I was gauging your intent. You defined the word gauge as paranoid dillusional. How far apart is that?
The only long term goal you've achieved as I see in your posts is not being able to explain yourself or understand what a dictionary is used for.
Since you've not being able to explain spirituality in the least, I think our discussion is done because you are doing nothing more than wasting my time with nonsense.
How does one go about being spiritual?
I wake up and think Hi God,looks like a beautiful day ,thankyou that I am here to enjoy it.
I look at a new creature (new to me) and am simply amazed that God made such vigrant colours! Wow
I had never seen lightening bugs (Fireflys) until I came to The United States.
I stretched out my hand ,crooked my little finger and as he blinked his bright light on and off ,I whispered 'C'mere ,Oh C'mere' and he came!!
I felt like E.T as half an inch from my finger this amazing glow beamed for a second.
Wow moments are Spiritual moments (to me) and I have heaps and heaps everyday.
So maybe being Spiritual is a state of mind ,which takes its direction from a grateful heart
An y'know something...God looks at each one of us and thinks Wow everyday too!
From your description, spiritual is living in an over-rated, Spielberg fantasy movie.
Is there anything you can add that isn't based on fantasy?
You have a closed mind. The world is better than S[pielberg fantasy, just have to open your eyes. Try believing, meditating, and being thankful for the life you have and you will find your own spirituism. "Ask and you shall receive" is no mythe.
Good Luck,. and may God be with you.
spiritual is being awed by the beautiful orange embers of the setting sun across the shimmering expanse of crystal blue ocean or being inspired by the sparkling flickers of starlight against a black velvet night sky or delighting in the soothing fragrance of a lilac or rose or being appreciative for every breadth, sight, taste and feel you experience or the unwavering belief in the goodness of mankind when it is not seen often enough.
Eagle, I often feel the same way. The world fascinates me, and I just have to believe that all of it was created by intelligent design. I'm in awe every day because of something I witness, even though it might be something as simple as my grandchild learning to walk or a cardinal eating at our bird feeder. Can one be spiritual without being religious? Certainly! I don't care much for the trappings of religion, in general, but I do believe in God and in Jesus.
The other day a young person said something interesting to me: "Jesus was cool. He was like the first hippie." Perhaps this teenager was inspired by the Doobie Brothers? (their Jesus is Just Alright with Me song) lol
I know the song ,back in the day lol ,loved it too.
Thanks for the share time, seems like the older we get ,or the less years we may have less ,the more grateful and precious the memories too.
By the way visited one of your blogs ,cuz I just had to have some Southern recipes :p Awessome!
I bet that fish in ya avatar is history now too! yum, lol
I reached out to seek God first and became spiritual connected.
Is it not written that ? .... that God gives faith to those that he gives it too ? ..... Ssooo
everybody is exactly where they are supposed to be ??????
So what is this about US supposed to be out there saving souls; If God already gave it to those that he wanted to have it?
A religion is a structure or system by which one has a relationship with divinity.
Obviously, it is possible to have that relationship--be spiritual--without the structure. Millions of people do it.
Yes surely can be a believer of god bt hardly didnt come across any1 who dsnt have a religion
Yes, yes and yes! Jesus is in the church, of course, but He is also in your heart. Don't let anyone tell you can't love Him if you're not in the church. Pulease!!!!
I believe that there are various answers here depending on how you interpret the word itself.
Personally, I find that Deism (as opposed to Theism) offers a deeply personal, but no less potent spiritual life (I am neither a deist, or a theist, but it makes sense to me). IF, we understand spirituality to be a personal experience, and not a social one. After all, being a "believer" or a spiritual person does actually necessitate a God at all (I'm aware that technically it does, but this is my opinion).
The rise of Axial "religions" such as Buddhism and Confucianism do not necessitate a God at all, although there is a religious establishment of sorts. I doubt many would say that these followers are barred a spiritual existence.
You could also add animism, ancestor worship or totem pole (self-worship) worship to the list of more examples of spiritual routines that do not explicitly require Gods.
I find "true God" to be a little redundant and a little condescending. I have many friends who are deists and are more than happy to admit they do not know "absolute truth", but juggle experience and life in order to shape their own spirituality. And they believe in God, or a God, as strongly as anyone else.
I don't get you. How could one believe in spirit or soul without a religion?
Do such Axial religions receive Revelation from the Creator God.
To illustrate the point, let's look at ancestor worship. Many people around the globe worship their dead ancestors and believe they, like theists proclaim, manipulate the world around them through a spiritual plane.
They pray to the souls of their dead ancestors.
They believe in an intangible spiritual realm that surrounds them.
The souls of the deceased are no more a God than than the person praying is.
In a sense it IS a religion. I do not doub that, which is why I said, "there is a religious establishment of sorts". But because of how personal the relationship is and how each "spirit" is different from the next, there is no formal structure. There are of course social traditions and practices.
Thank for your response.
Religion is based on the Word of Revelation from the Creator God
else it is no religion; it could be termed as is a social group though.
And I think he directly gave you that revelation?
No; the Word of Revelation was received by the prophets messengers like Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad from the Creator God for our benefit.
The Bible says:
God reveals himself to ALL who seek him with a diligent and sincere heart
Except muhammed all are mythology, and what muhammed did was copy the previous books. Now, even if they are live beings, how do you make out that they are THE prophets? Why didn't you include the ones like Sankara, Sai baba of india, Joseph Smith, Bahá'u'lláh, Hosain Mansoor al Halaj, ....
It doesn't matter where or how the word is revealed. As long as there are a set of beliefs and practices then it IS a religion.
Or this perspective:
Religion is man made.
Spirituality is relationship between Gods Spirit and Mans spirit.
I certainly "dig" the second part, although I'm a little lost on the third
You dont need a church to have a relationship with Jesus Christ,hence one can be very spiritual /spirit filled without being religious which often includes man made traditions (uniforms, laws and creeds),heirachy, and ornate buildings.
Christian are encouaged to be born again ,meaning to be baptised (as Jesus was)..symbolicly was to show an outward sign of what God was doing on the inside- Spiritual birth
Yes, you are spot on. I remember having that particular debate before, regarding the establishment of religion in the new testament. Jesus' life seems to be strangely at odds with his supposed command to Paul to erect the foundations of the "modern" church.
I think too some people confuse the meaning that Christ conveyed when he used the word 'Church'.
Man- thinks building...( and fills it up with pretty sparkly, or historic important objects ,then allocates 'Mr Important' to run the building. Mr Important needs help for his important tasks and appoints Mr Important assistants sometimes ,who hope to someday fill Mr Important Number Ones shoes
Christ -thinks Christ like people, who will fufil the law of Christ.
- Above all else ,have love one for another ,as I (Christ) have loved you.
The body of Christ is made up of people all with different strengths and abilities . Some are educated in the highest schools ,some received little, some are rich ,some are poor.
The body of Christ works together ( like arms and legs etc) to strengthen the WHOLE body and not just a few chosen ones!
I'm doing great. How have you been Kiwi?
I know that's right. I'm trying to stay cool as much as possible.
In my belief, one is not a true christain until he/she has been born again. While yes we are encouraged to be baptized, it is not what makes us "born again" (that is done through prayer - admittance of our sins, asking forgiveness, and admittance that God/Christ is the only Savior) it is simply a form of public profession meant to symbolize the dieing of ourselves and the rebirth of a new creature in God. Baptism is just another thing that we are encouraged to do as we follow Christ's examples on how we should live ur lives.
Then they will have no concept of spirit and the spiritual. They will form a bad-religion or a myth.
I hate to be a stickler here ibneahmad, but religion is an attempt to relate to and symbolize spirituality. It is NOT spirituality. It is a collection of views provided by a group of people that wish to define a specific moral direction to life. Unfortunately, it is usually based on someones fears rather than love. I believe that this is one of the greatest causes of misinterpretation of scripture.
I'm a NA and don't bother too much with religions outside my own beliefs - but I do follow 'teachings' which consists of common sense and could be considered 'steps' to be a better human being - which is like the commandments I'd guess - to us the 'Creator' is everywhere and resides in our heart and soul, if that makes sense.
Of course you can. The spiritual connection with God should be easily made anywhere and at any time if you are a true believer.
I absolutely agree. I am my own best example. I consider myself very spiritual, but I have lost faith in my religion along the way for many different reasons. I'm comforable in reading my bible alone, and over the years I've learned many scriptures that I can recite without reading from the bible.
Yes and no. It is possible to be spiritual without belonging to a religion, but I think most spiritual people who fall into that category do draw many of their ideas from reading a broad range of religious texts, or the thoughts of others on the topic. I think spiritual people attempt to glean the good they can find within each philosophy.
Conversely, I'm not sure I think it is possible to be truly spiritual within the confines of a particular religion. There appears to be no freedom of thought on the subject. You are almost required to accept certain tenets of faith without question.
Yes it is perfectly possible to be spiritual without being part of an organised religion, or even without a belief in God. In fact the people, who I have found to be most "spiritual" in my own life have been atheists, and some of the most materialistic have been religious. The term "spiritual" may in fact not be the correct one to describe atheists, who are also humanists and believe in giving back to their community, because such people do not believe in the existence of a spirit. However, if "spiritual" is taken to describe someone who is at one with other people and with themselves, and who views life in a philosophically caring way, then religion need have nothing to do with it, in fact it has been my experience that religion often gets in the way of spirituality.
Religion is man made, where you can read the bible, and any other spiritual literature and have a relationship with God. Religion is traditions made by man and tells man how to worship, pray, and kneel, stand, what version of the bible, books to read etc. That is a religious spirit, not God.
What a GREAT answer, Sherlock. Well said.
I think it is a good joke that the Atheists are called spiritual while they don't believe in spirit.
For instance, the Catholic church used to have control over people reading the bible, wouldn't encourage it, and you were a heretic and killed for publishing it in english or other languages for allowing others to read it if you were not a priest.
For me, religious dogma & all the junk that comes with it muddies up a pure relationship between (wo)man and creator! Haven't we learned from history that religion is a tool of manipulation?
amen roobee you got it right but Ill take it further, religion and God are contrary and in fact I will say it that religion is the devils greatest tool. More people "got o hell" 'as they say', because of religion than any other reason, Jesus for example was killed by the religious because he threatened to strip them of their power by exposing their hypocrisy. Jesus rocks I'll follow him every day, Love God Love your neighbor is the sum of all he said, what's not to agree with?
Yes, it seems a pure and simple message. I figure Jesus would make a terrible Christian.
I have a few hiccups regarding Jesus, but in the main, I'm satisfied.
Hiccup 1) I'm not sure how morally feasible or responsible I find the "take no care for the morrow" doctrine is.
2) Placing God before anything else leads to scenarios such as the sacrifice of Isaac which I find deeply abhorrent.
I have always felt that the "take no care for the morrow" doctrine applies to the fact that we are not promised tomorrow and everything we build here on earth will be left behind-it cannot go with us into eternity.
As far as placing God before all else- it's just that. God loved us enough to send His only son to die for us so that we may all be saved from hell (if we so choose) so why should we not be willing to sacrifice our children back to Him, after all they are only ours to borrow- a blessing from the God who gies and takes away to care for while we have them. Not to say that all who have claimed "God told me to do it" are correct but in the case of Abraham and Issac, it was a test of faith. God told Abraham to show him how much he loved him by sacrificing Isaac, and when God realized the Abraham did love Him enough to truely do it- there appeared a lamb to be sacrificed and Isaac was spared. Through the whole walk to the alter Abraham kept telling Isaac that the sacrifice would be there for them and it was. Abraham had the kind of faith and love that we all should have. But of course with the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus' life on the cross, there is no need for anyone to make sacrifices like in the Old Testament anymore (notice there are none in the Bible after Jesus' death and resurrection).
Well for starters loving an OT psychopathic god who is supposed to be loving and is in truth a neurotic insecure little god who when not worshipped by his creation, wipes them out.
why is it psychopathic or neurotic to destroy what you made if it doesn't work? If you make something and it is broken and you send your own son to fix it and it rebels from you anyway, you would do the same so you have judged yourself. God the creator has does everything to save you except force you and he has every right to destroy what he made, but don't worry the antichrist will force you soon enough and you can serve him, and probably will gladly. take implants and serve the one who lives to destroy you, that's not psychotic or neurotic is it?
The answer is in the text itself.
The only people who write psychotic scripture are psychopaths.
An all powerful god would not build humans with such a mangled DNA with faults you could drive a truck through. Hardly omniscient, when man has to repair obvious stuff ups.
The rest of your post is just bizzare conspiracy theory that is about as far from reality as the rest of your beliefs.
First of all, God did not create man, just so we could mess up. But He did create us with the freedom of choice- Do we love Him like he wants or do we turn our back on Him? It is my belief that if we turn our back on him, then in the end He will turn His back on us, just like He says. We have our entire lifetime, however long or short it may be, to make that choice-right up to our last minutes. The proof is in the crucifixtion. One man refused to acknowledge Jesus for who he is but the other asked Jesus to remember him- Jesus' reply was Today you will be with me in Heaven.
An all powerful God can do as He sees fit to do, that's what makes Him all powerful.
The more actual power one has, the less one needs to exert it or threaten.
Psychotic text clearly shows the low mentality of the author, and it is hard to get lower down the chain than the bible or quoran.
No god is likely to be a covertly hostile moron like the god depicted in religious tomes!
Spirituality is universal thing. However, there are many religions and thus many Gods.
The words have very different meanings depending on what one considers spirit or soul as well.
Spirit to me is the size of the fight for survival in the man or woman, good or bad.
The closest thing to soul I consider to be the essential essence of the persona, and would only be made available for me to see if I can embrace and accept the good and bad of the whole person.
I think religion is still important to help us for being more spiritual. IMHO
Sounds like you have some serious issues to be getting so worked up over a God that doesnt exist ,who obviously has an effect on someone you dont really know??...
Now who do you think is acting irrational here?
And you apparently have a skewed view about me getting upset. But, what else is new.
That's rather arrogant and condescending. Hoisted by your own petard?
Being spiritual without religion?
Unless one believes in spirit; one cannot be spiritual.
why do people who are spiritual need to belong to an organized religion?
they can be two different entities;not related at all.
there is a growing Pagen movement here and in the UK that predates the Jesus's Christianity and other organized religions of the world.
Absolutely, some would say that for them, that is the only way.
I love your title
Why not since when was there only one way to see the world
It is religion which introduced the concept of spirit and spirituality; without religion one cannot be spiritual to the fullest extent of the concept.
No, it is the Holy Spirit who introduce Spirit...Christ
And man who introduces Religion.
Many thousand of people have worshipped God without ever needing Religion.
Yes indeed. I worship God through spirit and truth.
Inpirational stuff W.O.C !
Obediant under fire..oooo....
To blessed to be stressed.
Gee that is a well reasoned response! Loads of logical thought behind that.
I thought so too, very very nice, most obedient to salvation and to it’s core. People would kill to have that grand of knowledge, in fact they already do.
Hey Earnest, You can't determine what is spiritual with logic.
Too often Religion wants to separate too many things rather than connected them together
You certainly don't use logic or reason. You do realize that this is why you cause so much ill will and hatred. Did Jesus tell you to fight and argue this much because I am having trouble finding that in the bible. Is that the 11th commandment?
11. Go forth and cause as much ill will and hatred as possible.
Even if that were true, one can still determine what is bulldust with logic.
It's a Miracles that a lighting bolt has not struck us three down yet
My dear mum used to worry that god was gonna get me for being what she called blasphemous.
Indeed the glory does belong to God.
He does all the work
He did all the work
its all a gift
a great giftology from God to His.
an amazing parent
Nope. The concept of the spirit was around before religion. Religions are little more than group acceptance of different definitions of the concept. Their existence without proof to back up their beliefs is evidence that the things they follow are not the truth they seek.
Religion was there as soon as man got evolved that he could be distinctively distinguised from the animals; man was taught how to speak and could expressed his inner thoughts in clear words to communicate with others; he was mature enough to receive Word of Revelation from the Creator God; an epoch making event in the life of humanity.
I am a Christian, which mean I beleive in God, but I am not affiliated with the man made relegions which sometimes feel more like clubs than a place of worship. I am also spiritual which a state of mind not something dictated by another person or group of people. Stick with you beliefs.
Hi Habee! I don't often see you here these days. I hope you are well, I know you're happy so I won't ask, you always are.
Hi, Earnest! I've been in Florida on vaca, and it was awesome! My granddaughter took her first steps while we were on Anna Maria Island.
People often fail to realize the difference between spirituality and religion. You can be religious and have no spirituality what so ever just doing it out of habit or for the sake of saying you did it (for other people), but that doesn't make you a spiritual person in heart. Some of the biggest hypocrite's are religious people who attend church every sunday hollering and hooting about GOD, judging other people, not even really knowing what a relationship with GOD truly means. People also fail to realize that a church here on earth is just a building, the "church" god refers to in the bible are mostly the body of christ...the people. If you follow him in heart you follow him in spirit, then you are spiritual and don't need to attend a building (church), and if you do it's just for your own personal want of fellowship. Your religion should not be in the church, it should be in your heart.
Each of us inevitable
Each of us limitless . . .
Each of us here as divinely as any is here. -- Walt Whitman
Being religious without religion is not possible, although there are many who are relgious without being spiritual. Religion can be very materialisitc, and there is a lot of money to be made from it. The Church did not become as rich as it is by giving everything away to the needy.
Being spiritual without religion is not possible.
Do you ever stop and think for a moment, that ancient spirituality religion maybe just getting in the way of true spirituality which is just the 99% unknowns?
the question posed was "can you be spiritual or a believer of God apart from religion or the church."
I took that to mean do you need to go to church in order to be spiritual? the answer is NO.
Spirituality is based on a religious foundation. Had I not been introduced to any form of religion when I was a child, I do not know what kind of person I would be today. But--some of the most devoted church-going people I know are also some of the biggest hypocrites!! They think that all week long they can do what they want and all is forgiven in the church pew on Sunday!!
Being spiritual without religion?
Almost everything is possible with imagination wail ancient Religion can only shrink in time
We Human have not even 1% knowledge about our own mass of the earth which is the surface of the earth, we do not know about 99 % about the mass beneath the earth. Wail just one bible Book claims it knows the whole of the Universe. I cannot express how limited minded that is. It only contributes to our over ego world of limited thinking and thinkers as you are what you think.
Spirituality is the 99% unknowns which did evolve from the med evil ancient spirituality time of religion/, Some that knowledge is part of our history, let’s not keep regretting the hardship of the pass, it’s better to work on not regretting things in our future, Love is work made visual and I am working on solving many of the grand conspiracy that face us today starting with many of the things that I have been brainwashed by and with the people within my circle.
The Atheists don't believe that there is anything like Spirit in the human body; they cannot prove it scientifically. If they don't believe in the spirit; how could they be spiritual?
That doesn't answer the question, why can't someone be spiritual without religion? I wasn't asking about atheists.
That is partly true Atheist are lame when it come to confronting spiritual conversation yet they are only 3% of the world population.
Although I would be within the 11% non religious spiritual groups
Hey Paarsurrey, you continue to toss sweeping statements onto the forums but can't seem to explain them. Are you trolling?
Why is it impossible to be spiritual without religion?
Science is one of the best ways to develop a wonder of the universe, which can be so moving as to be described as "spiritual." Religion is such a small-minded way of viewing the beauty of the universe. It is religion that has taught that the Earth is flat, that the universe consisted of a dome, which covered the flat earth, and which was only a few miles high. It is religion that taught that the Sun orbits the Earth. Compare this to the discoveries of science, that our solar system is only one of billions within our galaxy, and that our galaxy is only one of billions or even trillions in our universe. Recent developments in cosmological understanding suggest, that everything we call the universe, may be only one universe among any number, making up a multiverse. Christians now for the most part accept that the universe is bigger than a small dome, and that the Earth orbits the Sun, yet, it is science which made these discoveries, not religion. Religion tried everthing it could to prevent the understanding of the universe, even at pain of death. How anyone would choose this narrow view of existence, instead of the wonder created by the discoveries of science makes little sense to me.
To quote Richard Dawkins, 'Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings.'
I thins that God lives in hearts, you don't need churches to be be spiritual.
We all are spiritual as we are spirits who have a body and mind. But when we are too engrossed in the body and mind, we forget this. When we are aware, awake, we are connected with who you are, that is the spirit that weare. If your religion helps you to feel this, then you are spiritual. But religion is not necessary for experiencing spirituality. I have known people who pray, visit temples or churches, but who have no connect with their spirituality. I also know others who do not follow any rituals or talk of god, but who are in rhythm with the universe, with their own selves.
So, you can be religious, yet not spiritual . You can be spiritual and yet not religious. Or you can be both . The bottom line is you are vibrating to the rhythm of the universe, you know that each of us is like waves from the ocean, each wave carries the ocean in it. Some waves are slow, some fast, some rise high, some not so high, but ultimately each dissolves into the ocean.
Isn't that just being conscious and aware? Why bother calling it something else that has never been discovered in the human body? If we are spirits, where are these spirits? How do they work? What parts of the human body are they connected to?
The little fish asked the big fish? Where is the Ocean
The big fish replied your in the ocean, it totally surround you
The little fish was not please with big fish anwser, so he kept on serching
Provide that the little fish was not on the big fish menue that day
I can see fish and I can see the ocean, what is your point?
Swim 200 feet pass the land sharks on your left, there is a killer whale cave, Entrée there and you will find your answer to utopia in there
In the beginning, the gods were young and foolish. They blindfolded one another and played the game of pin the soul on the humans. Now, where your soul is pinned reflects your personality type reflects to the world. Those who are perceived as having a big heart have their soul near their heart. Those who are perceived as generous have their souls pinned to their hands. You need only imagine what body part closely resembles how your personality style is perceived.
What's a soul? Where is it? Does it sit next to the spirit? Do they get along, play cards or just sit and act dopey all day?
Having climbed the mountain and touched the sky, so to speak: I can only reply for my soul and spirit. I'm sorry to say the answer is dopey. You must embark on your own spirit quest to find the answer for yours.
Here we go again, chasing tails that have no body. Seriously, shuffling people off like little children when you can't explain why the sky is blue doesn't work very well on an adult forum.
Asking foolish questions doesn't either. There is no proof of a soul or spirit. No one can answer that question with any authority and you full well know that. Why would you ask it?
LOL! The question is foolish? You talk about souls and spirits as if they were piled knee high on the ground all around us but can't even describe or define them in the least.
If no one can answer the question, why do people insist they exist?
Other than my post sniggering at your question, where have I piled souls up knee high? If I have ever said soul, I'd be interested in being pointed in that direction. I would certainly be more than willing to clear up the miscommunication.
A Troubled Man
A soul for me, is made up of millions of things related or connected to you
A Christian soul is a salvation through Jesus
Kinda like a cross between a Funny farm and a Hot night club
I like the sound of generous souls have it pinned on their hands.
Can I used that if I write a book Titled: The Heavenly Sins of Masturbation
A fresh copy, hot off the press, signed by hand
Millions, but you can't describe or define one single thing or how it's connected out of those millions. Gee, that's helpful.
You say a Christian soul is something different, too? Is it different in a way you can't explain compared to the other millions of connected things you also can't explain.
This is so helpful. I feel like I'm standing in a scene from the Wizard of Oz talking with munchkins.
Don't knock Wizard of OZ, I perfer it over the Bible, I just won't kill for it.
Use your imagination and serch your record then find out all those million things that made up your ego self, that was once manifest from your spiritual connections.
Jesus is the world's Champion in history for taking whole souls, I just want to connect to the spiritual side of your soul.
Soul parts like your country, name, history, love ones, house and the list keeps going on and on..........
Country is country, name is name, history is history, etc. etc.
Spraying those definitions with magic and gobbledegook doesn't change them one bit.
All the things that are all closely connected to you, make up your soul.
The, Universe and everything is connected in high or low degrees of energy, The world and Universe is under 99% spiritual until spiritual is manifested into one's eco self.
I'm sure you will find me crazy for saying; my being is 99% spiritual and 1% material.
ps Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Yes yes yes!!!! Right On Susie..morning Have a great day ..love in Jesus Mike ;0)
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