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Will homosexuals go to heaven or hell when they die?

  1. cooldad profile image60
    cooldadposted 5 years ago

    I'm an atheist, but I've always thought that the Bible adamantly condemns homosexuality. Do homosexuals have any chance of getting into heaven? This has always confused me.

    In God's eyes, is being homosexual any more different than being an adulterer or killing someone? Can homosexuals also be forgiven?

    1. livelonger profile image89
      livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I assume you're asking Christians. Believe it or not, people who are neither Christian or atheist exist, and have opinions about such things.

      That said, even among Christians you're going to see a wide degree of opinion, mostly because no one really knows the answer to that question.

      1. cooldad profile image60
        cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm asking anyone who can help answer the question.  Any person from any religious or non-religious group.  How can there not be an answer?

        1. Mark Ewbie profile image83
          Mark Ewbieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I can't claim to have the exact answer of who goes to Heaven but I believe some Christians are gay, or indeed some gays are Christian.  So I bow to their knowledge on the subject.  If they think they are going then that's fine by me.

          If I believed in Heaven or God or that kind of thing then I'd personally prefer one where we were all free and equal kind of thing.  Rather than end up with a load of people who probably wouldn't like me being in 'their' Heaven.

          1. 0
            Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, of course some Christians are gay.  I mean have you seen some of those vestments with that fabulous embroidery that some of the bishops wear?  You can't tell me there isn't something going on there.

        2. livelonger profile image89
          livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The answer is still we don't know if there is a heaven or afterlife, which precludes really knowing if anyone "gets in."

          According to the most commonly-held Jewish belief, everyone except the most irredeemably evil people enter the World to Come.

          According to Christian doctrine, Paul said there are a large number of people that don't get into heaven, including non-Christians, thieves, drunkards, (what some would interpret to mean) gays, etc.

          The Jehovah's Witnesses go a bit further and restrict it to 144,000 total people (of which I'm sure none are gay).

          1. Mark Ewbie profile image83
            Mark Ewbieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I love that number!  Where does it come from?  There's a lot more than 144,000 Jehovahs.  Someone's being mugged.

            1. livelonger profile image89
              livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Haha, that's true. I guess whoever did the most door-to-door converting, or whoever gave out the most copies of Watchtower.

              1. Mark Ewbie profile image83
                Mark Ewbieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Got it.  MLM but with added Christ.

            2. Editor and Chief profile image59
              Editor and Chiefposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The number comes from Revalations in the Bible

            3. Jakob Dailes profile image60
              Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The Jehovah's Witnesses (btw, Jehovah isn't a word in any language, especially Hebrew. Look it up) got that number from Revelation, which states that right before the total end of the world, 144,000 Non-Christians will become Christian. How in all the world the JW's interpreted that as "Only 144,000 people in the history of the world are ever going to get into Heaven" I have no idea.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Wrong. The 144, 000 are the faithful and discreet servants. They'll rule with Christ according to the JW. The rest are the great crowd.

                You  are right about the word Jehovah. I pointed that out to two once. They consulted their elders and came back with a statement that; although true, it didn't matter. God knew what they meant. I told them they might as well call him Bob, since that wasn't the name either. They were not amused.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yea ,but apparently the J'W'S had to change this creed,since they found the departed saints were going to exceed those numbers.

                  Hmm..

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I hadn't heard that. That's funny, but new revelations will be given to them and it'll clarify the prophesy. They are never wrong. roll

            4. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              ____________________

              It is 12,000 Hebrews from the 12 Tribes of Israel

              1. kellyteam profile image61
                kellyteamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Absolutely!!

            5. thebrucebeat profile image61
              thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              144,000 is a multiple of 12, which is the number that signifies all of a set in apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Revelation).  It signifies all believers, but the JW sect didn't understand the meaning of 12 and that 144,000 was an extension of it and interpreted the number in Revelation literally, thus the doctrine of only 144,000 gettin' to the gates.

          2. 0
            Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            As a former Jehovah's Witness, I can confirm that you are correct, none of the 144,000 are gay.

            1. Mark Ewbie profile image83
              Mark Ewbieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I bet you at least one is.

              1. Greek One profile image80
                Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                that would be a real pain.. having to disturb people early Sunday morning by knocking on their backdoor

            2. 0
              Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Originally, the 144,000 represented 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  Jehovah's Witnesses believe the 144,000 are the ones who will go to heaven, but the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses will, they believe be resurrected to a paradise Earth after the battle of Armageddon.

        3. Seafarer Mama profile image86
          Seafarer Mamaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Many organized religions are not known for encouraging people to think for themselves. They'd rather have everyone think that they have all the answers. But life is messier than that.  I was raised Catholic...but now belong to a Unitarian church...which does encourage its members to think out their with spiritual development.

          Even the Holy Spirit of the Trinity is the one who supposedly "whispers" our individual purpose in our ear...and that takes reflection, self-trust and trust in God....and a willingness to be different from those around you.  If you have that trust...you've got true faith.

          "These things only remain, Faith,  Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love." - St. Paul

          Such love  includes tolerance and acceptance...though one wouldn't know this by the way the conservatives who call themselves Christians carry on!

        4. elk-123 profile image60
          elk-123posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Being an homosexual lets leave God out of this, is going  in a different direction to the fundamental law of universe and law of magnetism  because everything created as it own specific male and female partner (yin and yang) even God himself as a female partner which is our mind. Homosexuality to me, i can say is wrong because -ve and -ve or +ve and +ve don't have true attraction they only repel. Going to hell or heaven, I don't really believe in that because right here on earth you can choose to live in heaven or hell. What is heaven? to theist is believe to be the abode of God and it was said that God is every where, so therefore heaven is everywhere, around you, inside you so as hell. I don't believe going to heaven or hell as i don't believe in death.

          1. recommend1 profile image70
            recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Good luck with the not believing in death, I think you may be persuaded of the reality of it in time big_smile

            Fundamental laws of the Universe do not dictate human life - the rules of life are dictated by society - and speaking out against homophobia as many of your unknown friends do in these threads is about changing the views of the mass of society in the face of aggressive religious weirdism.

            1. elk-123 profile image60
              elk-123posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              good luck to you too, i don't follow any religion but if you want to follow the masses, you can. Hiding from the truth can't change the truth

              1. recommend1 profile image70
                recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Maybe I did not make my post clear.

                It was about many people, including myself, who speak against homophobia.

                Society has a general opinion on these things and especially those who claim to be christians seem bent on turning people against homosexuals and other gender differences.

                The masses follow whichever opinion suits them - it is our job in these threads to try and push or pull the masses away from homophobia, hate and bigoted morals.

                1. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It's your job, you say?  Who is "our"?
                  How much money has your employer shelled-out to you on y'all's wild goose chase, lookin' for needles in haystacks, snipe-hunting, all that?  Because the only "phobias" in evidence around here have been hatred for conservatives, Christians, Israel, and morality.

                  You could hone your craft.  You know, take your focus to a valid level in your line of work.  Hint---there are MANY examples of hatred against conservatives and other straights in these threads, even against God Himself.  No one expects you to defend God of course!  But you could at least defend your fellow hubbers from being verbally personally assaulted.  But wait---you're all about "pushing" and "pulling" your agenda as you said......so I guess we can't expect anything good from there either...

                  1. recommend1 profile image70
                    recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The only reason I bother to stay in the forums and comment is mostly due to the small handful of slobbering bigots who spread their hatred and misery around.  Some balance has to be maintained.  That the bigots are generally christian, right wing homophobes who have no decency, morality or much humanity is quite apparent to the normal people who read this stuff.

        5. nightwork4 profile image59
          nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          no they won't go to heaven. but the good news is either will anyone else so it's all good.

    2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      cooldad, Good question. The bible does condemns homosexuality as an immoral and unnatural sin. (Leviticus 18:22). God loves everyone including homosexuals. He simply hates sin. Yes homosexuals can also be forgiven, but one has to repent and sincerely desire to change. This applies to adulterers and murderers also. It's not good for anyone to ask God for forgiveness and keep committing the same sins over and over.

      1. TMMason profile image74
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's way too much logic, WOC.

        Many here seem to have a problem understanding that faith and repentance also require action... physical work.

        But most today are adverse to real work.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          TM, Agreed.

      2. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        nice answer WOC

        Some people are deep in sin and its hard to come out of that sin. I don't envy that situation. Jesus said "go and sin no more". We know that God set up a "natural' way of doing things. Male and female. We understand that God dislikes when people do their own thing and go against the grain of Gods ways. It's quite obvious to me that there is a need for change in that sort of lifestyle and that God loves all people and is willing to help make change, reality.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Some seem to think it's not a lifestyle. Lifestyle means the way in which a person or group lives. I'm not trying to open up a can of worms or anything. God bless you brother.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            i hear that. GBU2

            if not a lifestyle then what.. just a random thing that occurs once in a while?
            I see the can of worms. Even random things that occur infrequently leaven the whole lump, do they not?
            This is i suppose why the rabbis spent so much time dissecting Gods laws. Do not work on the sabbath was a big debate. What is meant by work.. carrying 70lbs would not be work to a man but to a woman it would be, pushing the car, winnowing wheat is work and when one walks through a wheat field do they not winnow. lol.

            Paul said "let everyman be convinced in his own mind" (as to what is right and wrong) and this is the personal relationship we each have with God our maker. One may esteem one thing clean and another unclean.
            I see another can of worms now. smile

        2. noenhulk profile image55
          noenhulkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree too WoC.  Action speaks louder than words...

      3. Seafarer Mama profile image86
        Seafarer Mamaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think that homosexuality was the sin they were talking about. They were referring to the raping of young boys by older ones, or by grown men. That was the sin, since there is not consent...only control.....alot like the priest scandals. It's the betrayal of trust and misuse of power that's the real issue.

        Perhaps if those same people were not taught that they were shameful, they could express their sexuality openly and the raping wouldn't happen.

        1. livelonger profile image89
          livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The growing consensus among Jews is that Lev 18:22 refers rather to male temple prostitution, a common cult of Molech (and fertility goddess Ashteroth) practice at the time, as was bestiality. This was made clear in 2 Kings 23:5-10; the word Christians have translated to sodomites is the Hebrew word "kadesh", which is the male form of "kedesha", a female cult prostitute.

          That entire section of Leviticus, 18, along with 20, is devoted to ways that Hebrews are to set themselves apart from their pagan neighbors. This is more easily illustrated in such practices as not mixing fibers in clothing, something that has no ethical value but set the Hebrews apart from their neighbors who had such a practice.

      4. VOICE CIW profile image81
        VOICE CIWposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        VOICE CIW
        woman of courage I could not have commented any better than you just commented on whether homosexuals will go to Heaven, or whether they can be forgiven. Stay blessed.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Voice, God bless you!

    3. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I haven't read anything that says Gays do not get to go to heaven.  There are a number of abominations unto the Lord that it is said that they shall be put to death (taken out of this world)  But where does it say that they are to go to hell?

        I do not know of a place which says that.

      1. preacherdon profile image79
        preacherdonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Romans 1:26-32, Revelations 21:8, 22: 15. The New King James says sexually immoral but the King James says sodomites.

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Just got a minute  then gotta go again.

            In Romans 1,  it dos not say anything about going to hell. 

            Rev 21  says the fearful etc shall have their part in the lake,  don't know what that means,  "A Part?"  especially when AFTER the new City comes down, After Satan and the False prophet are thrown INTO the lake  and yet it seems that having their share (?) doesn't seem to be the same thing as being thrown into it.  After all is said and done,  there they still are, outside the gates (Rev 22:15) ?  I think there is more to be considered concerning this issue than what has yet been discovered?

             But that is just ME

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            have their part means explicitly "shall not avoid being included in"

            its not real estate smile

    4. cindi h profile image61
      cindi hposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This, along with many other inconsistencies within the 'church', is what led me to leave it! I learned early on that my church was hypocritical in its teachings. It portrayed 'God' as all knowing and all loving, yet he was unforgiving of 'divorce'  and homosexuality?  I was almost suspended from catholic school when I asked 'unconscionable' questions of the nuns. If we all originated from Adam and Eve then weren't we in fact the product of incest? If God created us and was 'all knowing' didn't he then know in advance what and who we would become? In essence, he created the mass murderer, the sociopath, the homosexuals etc. Or at the very least, he allowed their existence.
      some will say he gave us free will, but that still does exonerate him for allowing these deviations in his model (humans).
      Sorry for the rant- to answer your question, I personally believe that all but the most depraved among us will go to heaven or at least a better place.

      1. amymarie_5 profile image89
        amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Cindi-That sounds a lot like me when i was a kid.  I also had questions like yours.  just a lot of lame replies like have faith or I'm not supposed to question God.  Even worse when they'd smile at me like i was some silly kid with silly questions.    (sigh)

        1. cindi h profile image61
          cindi hposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          oh yeah and what about the answer, "It's a mystery"?  One nun even told me that if we had the answers to all our questions, we'd be God!

          1. amymarie_5 profile image89
            amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It's a mystery, I still hear that one from relatives. Gotta love how they dodge that question! I also have a hard time believing an all loving, powerful and fair god would forgive a child molester for accepting God but send a starving child in a third world country to hell because nobody told the kid about Jesus.

    5. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I would think a homosexual would be as welcome as anyone else in the christian heaven.

      Oh, that's right no one's welcome, other than right wing bigoted zealots. Most gays and lesbians that I know are nicer than that.

      So, if they had some reason to want to hang with a bunch of people who spent their holier than thou lives thinking they were better than the rest of us; sure, why couldn't they get in? Wanting to be there would show they are truly forgiving.

    6. tamaracreese profile image61
      tamaracreeseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      omnly god knows where they gonna go

      1. tamaracreese profile image61
        tamaracreeseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        only*

    7. UnnamedHarald profile image95
      UnnamedHaraldposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I presume dead homosexuals will end up in the same place as dead cats, dead dogs and dead heterosexuals.

    8. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Doesn't seem to be any particular law in Judaism and Christianity that condemns homosexuals or homoeroticism.   The two religions does condemn spilling your seed clearly as well as incest.

    9. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hay cooldad  ....   Interesting arguements in this thread.

          Yep!  bible says one "SIN" is no greater than another.

         There are however, some sins which I find more distastfull than those that "I" happen to maintain.
         I am also pretty sure that "IF" I were to rid the world of all those that enjoy different sins that those which I keep, the world would be one borring place. And it might even stop turning.
         Your question would seem to be quite complicated at first glance, but I don't think it is really.
         Do Homosexuals get to go to heaven?
         Sexuality does not have a place in heaven, according to scripture.  I think that there are many things which are allowed into heaven that does not enter through the gates of the kingdom.
         I do believe in God the creator. I have no clue as to the method in which all of this was created. It did come about in one fashion or another This I do not believe was just an accident.

        I believe Jesus was the Messiah that OT prophesy was talking about.  And I believe those things written in the bible which are written in "red".  Including those verses which warned about decievers coming and professing to be speaking in his name.

         Who are these decievers?    I haven't a clue!             Not going to point any fingers cause I have no way of knowing.
      I might even be one, who knows?     

      I'm pretty sure that I should be certain that my back porch is swept perfectly clean before I am to tell you that you should take out your trash.


          I could go on and on, but I guess this is enough or now.

      1. cooldad profile image60
        cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, there are very interesting arguments and opinions in this thread.  People truly fascinate me.  I'm always amazed how one simple question can evoke so many types of emotions when concerning religion or politics.  People become very passionate about their beliefs, especially when their beliefs are put into question.
        I enjoy all the comments and enjoy observing how people react.  Thanks so much for contributing.

        1. ipodcaster profile image60
          ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'd like to point out something to you: the more passionate people are about their posts, the less truth they have backing them up. It's really true -- oddly enough.

      2. 60
        Rosa Harrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I totally agree with you!!

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks or the reinorcement.

             I honestly believe that statement to have been the truth.   

                Unfortunately   ....    here on hub pages forums ....   Folks ; don't apear to pay No Attention unless they read something to argue about and think themselves to apear inteligent.

             Skip right over everything unless there is an insult to throw.   This is called exersing 7 days a week.

    10. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Regardless of where somebody else is going...   If we are fixated on where "They" are going ;  we will end up right there with then  ...  wherever that is!


        edit    I'm going to bed now.   just wanted to give somebody ??   something to think about.

      1. Paraglider profile image90
        Paragliderposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's a good observation smile

      2. ipodcaster profile image60
        ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think you're right.

    11. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, I would have to say, that since most christians believe that they are now saved by faith and that no christian is perfect, that anyone who believes and accepts jesus as thier personal savior is going to heaven. Homosexual or not.

    12. amymarie_5 profile image89
      amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      A lot of people think homosexalty is a sin because of the bible.  If they are going to hell, then so are runaway slaves, women who do not obey their husbands, peole who don't rest on the sabbath and people who take the lords name in vain.  Oh yeah and everyone that covets another persons posessions.  Yeah, I have a feeling Hell is going to be a mighty crowded place when we all get there but a lot more fun then hanging out with all the fundies in heaven.   lol

    13. 59
      passingthewordposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Homosexuality is a sin. just like premarital sex, lying & etc... A sin is a sin what ever it is. There is only one unforgivable sin and homosexuality is not it.
      God did not create sin. it came from Satan and his angles. You could read in the Gospels about demons that are specialist in a certain sins and they go out and try to influence people to try and fall for their tricks.  if you read matt 12:43-45 you can see that demons try and double, triple team you to try and make you fall to whatever you are weak in. (sex, gambling, porn, addiction, etc.....) There is even a story were a man was attacked by a legion of demons. but in eph 6:10-20 God teaches us how to fight these spirits. Jesus scared the legion by using the Word of God. there is so much to share but i wont overload my reply. Cooldad you my not believe this, which is OK. I have no right to Judge (i am a sinner like everyone else)  but i rather you understand what the bible saids (what God saids) instead of some fake preacher making up their on doctrine. Good luck to you.

    14. 0
      kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you ask me it is the most ignorant question I have ever heard which I say with no apologies

      1. cooldad profile image60
        cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm confused, what is the most ignorant question you have ever heard?

        1. ipodcaster profile image60
          ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Are we there yet? Oh, no... not that one.  That's the most annoying.
          Ignorant? Hum... "Am I worthy?" That's an ignorant question. All things and people have tremendous worth. We just don't know it because ignorant people/religions raised and trained us to believe that somehow we were not acceptable beings. Now, ignorant doesn't mean bad or unworthy. It just means not knowing.

    15. kellyteam profile image61
      kellyteamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The Bible (God's Word) states that "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23). God loves all of us. We are all sinners. It is the sin that he condemns and hates not the sinner. He gives us an opportunity to repent from our sins, turn away from them and live for Him. We war against the flesh. Romans 8 speaks a lot about this. The book of romans would probably be a good book to read and try to get an understanding about repenting and turning your life over to God. Salvation is about pleasing God, not man. We want to do what feels good to us, thats just the way it is. If it feels good do it. God wants to know will we sacrifice what we want for what he wants. read Luke 18:18 to 18:25. What will you give up for Christ?

      1. ipodcaster profile image60
        ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "Salvation is about pleasing God, not man." To me, this means "being in the world, but not of it." Jesus said that we were with him before the foundations of the world. In other words, we were all together... and, at that time, we were not humans -- we had no bodies. On the deepest level, we are spiritual beings that chose to inhabit a human body and live the experience. Our true self lives forever.

        And so, pleasing God may be that which is pleasing to our own spiritual natures. Living a life in which we overcome the ego mind of fear, arrogance, judgment, self-righteousness, and separation from God and others. We know we have left ego-mind behind when we no longer hear incessant inner chatter. Judgments, assessments, excuses....

        "What would you give up for Christ?" Strange question. I suppose the ego -- or, living a life in which we live in the world and then insist that it is the only existence that is real. Things are never as they appear to be... and so we know very little, except that which we experience. How can you really know any thing else for sure?

        My world view isn't as bible-centric as yours. They bible was compiled by the Catholic Church. Books (scrolls) were left out, edits made. If you don't experience God (or Spirit), all you're doing is memorizing words from a book. I'm weary of people quoting scripture. I do it to make a point, and I usually quote it to bible-centric people.

        I've been speaking in tongues (biblical) for forty years. All it is is channeling the Spirit. The other side. The unseen realm. Maybe even my own Spirit-self that is one with God.

        Back to homosexuals and heaven... don't worry about it, original poser of the question. Others will always judge and throw scripture at you. Heck, in the bible it says that beings came from the sky and coupled with the human female. Bet ya don't hear that one in bible school!

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why is that the spiritual being channeled sounds very much like gobbledegook being spewed from a drunken sailor?

    16. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Don't fret. There is always forgiveness. Only humans don't forgive. That said, I have found that Christians believe all kinds of stuff based on someone's interpretation of the Bible -- a book that was compiled by a bunch of old Catholic men sitting around together, including one scroll here and deleting another scroll there. These were men living in a time when it was okay to stone women, so they weren't too fond of including scrolls where women were the heroines. The Catholic Church was infiltrated by men who commonly molested young boys and men. This is fact, not fiction, and the remnants of that sexual preference are still seen today in the church's scandals. Yes, all have sinned. If only non-sinners went back to God, "heaven" would be a lonely place. I say to all of you, give up the childish view of God. Quit putting the Infinite, the All-That-Is in a tiny box. The bible has been interpreted and re-interpreted ad nauseam -- even as the bible itself says it must be above private interpretation. Figure that? How can anyone read something and not try to figure it out and then talk and write about it? Maybe, by some chance, it was meant to be read and reflected upon -- not made into religions whose main purpose is to control people.

    17. 59
      Mohammad Wasimposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      One thing is very important to know that the homosexuals are not manufactured by human being. The man born as a homosexual.It is the creation of God..If the religion accept or not accept. It does not matter.
      Religions are a part of politics. Lot of things are added by the religious scholars. God never says any things. God do not do any mistake.. So. it will be the great honour for the Scholars of all religions to accept the homosexual and use the respectable word to please them as well as God.
      It is the universal truth.
      .

    18. The Optimizers profile image61
      The Optimizersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wonder if there are gaybars or gay nightclubs in "heaven"? or maybe an annual gay parade!

      Wouldnt make heaven much of a paradise for homophobics would it.. lol

      1. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image82
        Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by the wrath of God because of people's sinfulness devoid of remorse or repentance, theirs became an evil habit and it has been like living in hell, with the absence of God in their filthy minds.  Hence, their guilt remained in them, deserving of God's wrath.  It was hell they were living in, it's hell they deserve. But we have a forgiving God who is slow to anger, as he allows us to commit mistakes and gives us a chance to correct these mistakes or faults.  Whatever  we may do against our neighbors, with malice in our hearts, we will be answerable to God, and God will repay, in his wrath out of our disobedience, as in Numbers 14:18, and in Romans 12:14-21.  Even in this lifetime we may experience how he manifest his anger upon us in a lot of ways we may not even notice. He does not tolerate evil as it is an insult to his goodness. We just see ourselves into trouble when we sin, or see things happen not in our favor, or against our expectations.  Remember, we cannot hide anything from God as he is all knowing.  You may not notice it but in many ways, he usually makes his presence felt, especially for believers, and often times, he uses other people in your life to make you feel that he is watching you and whatever happens, it is God's will and God's plan for you based on your actions or reactions. And when you do good for others as you show your love and concern for people around you, you feel happy and blessed.  When you are in Christ, you know that it is God's plan for you.  Counting your blessings than your hurts make you grow spiritually mature, as you see the goodness in thanking and praising him in all circumstances. Gay, lesbian or not, if you sin with malice and in lust, God will repay, until you learn to renew your life and follow the light of Christ, whence, you may see true peace and happiness in your life.

    19. carolejosart profile image60
      carolejosartposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      please tell me cooldad, why would that affect you in any way? You are not a gay person & you don't believe in God.  I do not understand the questions you posed, It seems that your question is based on inaccurate data from the Bible(quoted text defines the translated consequence as an abomination, not mortal,no return, no forgiveness sin). This was also in the Old Testaments time period. If we had been there,we would remember that it was not a stable & secure era with very few rules to live by.
      All the time used by so many to promote negativity,condeming groups of people & preaching against friend or family member spawning hatred & grief.  These people say they are Christians??  The Christians I know spend their time motivating people to have more positive thoughts about themselves and others. So they can help each other and put unconditional love back in their own relationships.
      I find it is very sad to spend time supporting discrimination based on incorrect definitions, spite, & misunderstanding. If this is important to you, and you really need to know...pray about it:)

    20. 59
      Mohammad Wasimposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This time I appear as a massanger of love and to remove your doubt of going to heaven or not. The great Creator is your master. He gives you feeling. It is your body and you can use according to your satisfaction. The master never enterfare in your decision. Enjoy your life without asking or to know , what will be after the death.
      Do not go in mystical stories. Once we are on this earth and let us see what happen after death. Do not worry. love is the main destination and satisfaction of life.

    21. Awkward Turtle profile image59
      Awkward Turtleposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The question IS... if heaven is full of extremely conservative, fascists Christians, do homosexuals even want to be there?

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ...or any other rational being for that matter! smile

    22. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
      tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      GOD makes it very clear how HE sees Homosexuality. i know there are many homosexuals that attend churches just for them...i often wonder how they get around that, perhaps they simply cut it out of their bibles altogether or translate it to mean something else. they do not worship GOD in their churches...they worship a self made image of HIM...on that allows them to live the lifestyle the desire without consequences.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No, you make it clear what you believe about homosexuals and hide behind a myth to support homophobia  "nicely" is the truth of the matter.

        1. livelonger profile image89
          livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This.

      2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this



        God also make it very clear how he sees adultery, divorce, working on the sabbath, fornication, obedience to your parents, respect of the elderly, assisantance to the widowed or poor, making any type of graven image, and a variety of other things, that christians disregard every single day and still claim to be "going to heaven".

        So how is this any different?

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I prognosticate the world will end before you get an honest answer to those excellent points. lol

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            To be honest...I really don't expect an honest answer. I expect to see excuses and attempts to justify. Or to be told that I am taking things out of context and need to be a believer to understand "God's will".

            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              We may need to pray for an honest religionist to stand up and be counted. lol

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this



                Isn't this an oxymoron? smile)

                1. earnestshub profile image87
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I must say I have seen a lot of dishonesty in these religious threads, and almost no answers to legitimate questions, just excuses and side steps to avoid. smile
                  Need sleep. Now missing for 8 hours or so. Goodnight, and may the gods be with you all. smile

        2. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
          tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          you are so very right. this is what i mean when i say people worship a self made image of GOD...if they worshiped the true GOD, they would live in obedience to HIM...instead, they live as they please and make justifications that allow them to do so without guilt. or as my dad once told me..."God never expected us to obey the ten commandments, they were just supposed to be a guideline". well, i dont believe GOD is a waster of HIS time...besides, how many times does HE or CHRIST say "If you love ME, keep MY commandments." CHRIST also said "If a man say I love GOD, yet hates his neighbor (fellow man) then he is a liar, and the truth is not in him...if you cant love your neighbor whom you can see...how can you love GOD...whom you cannot see? what is "loving your neighbor, or fellow man"? it means to love them as GOD loves us...unconditionally, if one does that they wont be committing crimes against them. we may not love/approve/condone the sin people commit...but we must love the people.

    23. Seafarer Mama profile image86
      Seafarer Mamaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I was brought up with the faith that God loves the "sinner" but not the "sin." Given that, I also believe that throughout history the natural world controls population growth by arranging that a certain percentage of the population is "homosexual."  This happens in the animal kingdom as much as in humans. To an extent, I suppose it could be a choice, but most of the time it seems that those who "come out" believe that they have always known the nature of their emerging sexuality.

      In my faith development, God is the creator of all nature, and if God has determined that a certain percentage of the population will be homosexual, then why would"she condemn what s/he has created that way s/he has created "it."

      No, I do not believe that anyone that has determined their sexuality to be in the least bit homosexual (inc. bi, trans...etc.) is condemned by nature of what they are. I believe that the nature of our hearts and the choices that we consciously make either redeem us or condemn us as people.

    24. James A Watkins profile image92
      James A Watkinsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Homosexual behaviors are no more sinful than other sins. The key is in the heart. If a person who has been engaging in homosexual behaviors prays to God with a heart that admits these behaviors were wrong, that he is sorry for doing them, that he asks God to tranform his heart to take these desires away from him, he will certainly be forgiven and have a clean slate.
      God loves the humble but He is hard against the proud and rebellious.  Therefore, if the attitude is "I have done nothing wrong" "The Bible is wrong" "I am proud of these behaviors and plan to keep on doing them" then no. But that is the same for other habitual sins, such as adultery. People who habitually sin and are unrepentant about it—or worse, actually proud of it—are separated from God.

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly. You summed it up nicely James.

      2. Forrest Decker profile image61
        Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Amen, James you are right.   If one is judge by one own heart then is he/she going to heaven?  Sin is sin.  No men is without sin.  The only difference between Christrain and nonchristian is that we Christian made Christ Lord of our life.  We try to obey God as best as we know how to but we can fail at times.  So a homosexual can be a proclaim Christain but sooner or later will have to ask God to forgive him/her to get into heaven.  Cooldad I do not really think you will like this answer but it is what it is.

    25. CARIBQUEEN profile image75
      CARIBQUEENposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I think we just have to wait and see if we actually get there ourselves.

    26. Forrest Decker profile image61
      Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      First I will thank you.  I wrote my six hubs after I reading your question.  Sin is sin in Gods eyes that why he had to provide a way for us to come to him.  Jesus, God only begotten son died on the cross to cover our sin with his blood.  No men is without sin but God do not want any men to go to hell.  See God do not judge men sin by the law but by our heart.  It will be our heart that will get us into heaven or hell.  The law is there to guide us along the road to heaven.  In fact Christ said that love is the greatest commandent.  So those of us who call ourself Christain need to dish out compassion to all sinners even those who hate us.  The only thing that make me a Christian is Jesus is my lord, I am a sinner too.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Sure!
        And then the three little pigs went whee whee whee whee all the way home. lol

    27. mepperly profile image60
      mepperlyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I do not believe in Hell other than what we put ourselves through here in the physical world. I believe we all have a right to be here and enjoy and experience what there is here and if that is another person of the same sex then so be it. I have many gay and lesbian friends and family members and full support their healthy relationships the same as non-gay people. They are all the same to me.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. We all have friends. Their sexuality is their business. Apart from family and friends who are homosexual, I probably have many associates who are homosexual as well.

        I wouldn't know, it's not the sort of thing that comes up amongst associates and others. Not important.

        Decency, is important, good moral and business practices all matter, so this focus on someone's sexuality seldom takes place in my world at least.
        No one cares..

    28. chamilj profile image61
      chamiljposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      May be homosexuals will go to homosexual's Heaven. Ha Ha! what a question? smile

    29. pennyofheaven profile image82
      pennyofheavenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That would depend on ones concept of God and Heaven.

      Concepts can often create a belief that becomes very powerful, in that, what one believes one can conceive eventually.

      The Bible was written and rewritten by man. Who is to say it was not a personal prejudice of the writer. We will never know.

      Sexual preference in my view is irrelevant except to those who have either a curious mind or mindset that has been conditioned to accept people only like themselves.

      There are hetro sexuals that prefer sex in a certain way and are not condemned for their preferences. More importantly though their sexual practices are rarely if ever scrutinized as much as gay people.

    30. FighterforJC profile image60
      FighterforJCposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you want a Biblical answer, the short answer to your question is yes.  Homosexuals can go to heaven just like murderers and rapists and good people can go to heaven.  We are all saved by God's grace.  It is a free gift from God.  By definition, grace is something you can't earn or work for.  The only "work" involved is reaching out your hand to accept it.  Jesus died on the cross for all our sins, and it's like getting a check in your mailbox for a billion dollars.  But in order for that check to be worth anything, you'd have to cash it. 

      Now here's the thing.  The Bible says that if we break one commandment, we are guilty of breaking them all.  It's like hanging by a chain over a cliff.  It doesn't matter which link breaks, you're going to plummet to your death.  The issue is not a matter of being a homosexual or not, it is a matter of being a sinner who has fallen short of God's perfect standards.  While the Bible definitely condemns homosexuality, it is just like all other sins.  It's a manifestation of our fallen, imperfect nature.  We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.  It is our sin nature that disqualifies us from heaven, not the expression of that nature, may it be in the form of homosexuality, murder, fornication, or whatever else you can think of.  Look at it this way.  When you see that "check engine" light go on, turning off the little bulb behind it won't fix the problem.  Just like "quitting" homosexuality won't get you to heaven.

      But when you truly accept Christ for who He truly is and what the Bible says He is, everything will fall into place.  That check engine light will disappear.  Will you be sinless?  Absolutely not.  The difference is that whereas before you had a blast being a sinner, you will now struggle with it.  For a homosexual or any other sinner to accept God's forgiveness, it begins with accepting that what they are doing is in fact sin and is against God. 

      In the end, it is not lack of scientific evidence or anything of the sort that prevents people from believing the Bible, but it is their unwillingness to bow down to a God who is above them and has the power to judge and condemn.

    31. billabongbob profile image80
      billabongbobposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The bible is written my man, a long time ago.  It's a set of made up rules that have the intent of control of people.  Some of it's content is good, sensible advice.  Rules that make a community a good place to be. 

      However, a very large portion is outdated and inapplicable in modern life. It's also all very open to interpretation and people view homosexuality in different ways.

      I'm not suggesting that the good book be rewritten, but in today's society sexuality, amongst other things, need to be treated in a different light to what is portrayed in the bible.

      1. OutWest profile image60
        OutWestposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I wonder if you've ever even read the bible.  It is not there to control anyone but offers experiences so that a person might come to know who God is.  It often states natural consequences of peoples actions, that's all.

    32. caronsheart profile image60
      caronsheartposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am a Christian and I believe that many misunderstand who is and who isn't going to go or not go to heaven. Christianity is not about do's and don'ts! That's the law, and Christ removed the law by fulfilling it in Himself. Now we are under grace and going to heaven isn't about tasks, it's about "relationship" with Him. If you receive the gift of Christ and what He did for all mankind...you become His child. The rest of your life consists on building that relationship with communication, and being Fathered by the Lord. Just as our children are imperfect and don't listen to their parents....they don't get kicked out of being our kids when they do...they add sufferings that parents don't want for their children...but they never lose their place as being our children. I believe the same for this situation....many confused, rebellion, and imperfect children of God will all go to heaven. Our perfection is not in ourselves but the accomplished work of Christ that gets us in and keeps us in. Our job here on earth is to learn of His love, and live in it mistakes and all. It's not about do's and don'ts...it's about life and death. In Him is life! :>)

    33. AEvans profile image71
      AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As a Christian here is my opinion based on reading the Bible. Which means not just reading what the church teaches, but reading the book itself.

      Do homosexuals have any chance of getting into heaven?  First and foremost nobody has actually gone to heaven, except for Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go to heaven when we die.The only person that is immortal is God himself. 1 Timothy 6:16. 36 times the Bible talks about us going into a deep sleep, but again nowhere does it say we go to heaven, but of course we are taught this in church. I believe it is a way to gave us peace when our loved ones are gone.


      In God's eyes, is being homosexual any more different than being an adulterer or killing someone? This question has many questions in it. A person cannot compare homosexuality to an adulterer or murder, they are all completely different entities. In God's eyes however a sin is a sin, but all of us fall short of the Glory of God. So all of us are sinners in some form. Judging is a sin, blasphemy is a sin and the list goes on.

      Can homosexuals also be forgiven? Of course they can be forgiven, all of us are created in God's image. All of us are God's children. smile

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It is interesting to hear Christians talk about sin, judging and what their God thinks. I would suspect they're wrong anyways.

        God might get a serial killer placed in front of him for judgment and find that the killer had a physical disability in his brain and couldn't help himself, something only God would know, so He would just remove the disability and allow the killer into heaven.

        If He's a loving God, He would also look upon the homosexual with love knowing that person did no wrong in their lives and never tried to intentionally hurt anyone.

        A hateful God would treat each sin equally no matter what the circumstance and dole out his wrath upon them all.

        See how easy it is to think for God? smile

        1. AEvans profile image71
          AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Very simple. smile To me God is love and he is also a forgiven God. smile

          All of us as I said are God's children. smile I went back and read what I wrote. God loves all of us no matter what choices we make and who we love, that is what I meant. smile

    34. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      They won't go to heaven or hell. There is no such thing. wink

    35. Todd Psick profile image59
      Todd Psickposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good people will go to hell. Good people do bad things too. Choosing a lifestyle that goes against God's word can certainly end in Death. The thing about sexual sin that differs from all others is that it is within our bodies, not outside. If you decide to read God's word, which I strongly suggest, you will find He forgives anyone who accepts His free gift, no matter what they have done; That gift is eternal life through placing your faith in the work of Jesus. You can't earn it, it's free. It is worth the time to re visit the Bible for many of us received bad information as children, or somewhere in life. The truth of God's word will pierce the hardest of hearts. It is powerful. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain. Don't believe me check it out for yourself. Have you ever thought,"why would the disciples be horrifically murdered, all but one, just for saying what they believed in"? They caused physical harm to no one, yet died for their faith. Why, was someone scared they were right?

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It seems like your god is the one that is scared, and insecure to the point of insanity.

        From the book of "love":

           "I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD.  "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die.  I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD.  "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship.  I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear.  For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars.  They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too.  So now I will destroy them!  And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do.  They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings."   (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

        Nasty psychotic little god!

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No one was scared they were right. Some factions of early Christianity were like Muslims are today, fanatics and terrorists as far as the Roman Empire was concerned,. and they denied all the Roman gods which was a problem.

        They were subversive. By denying the other gods they were thought to make the other gods angry and thereby threatened Rome.

        They were heretics. Later Rome would take it over and start calling everyone else heretics and murdering them.

        Religion is politics. Nothing good can ever come of it.

    36. avidix profile image60
      avidixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Has anybody seen sexual contact of Male+Male or Female+Female among Animals ? -NEVER.
      It is Not Natural. Humans despite being most intelligent searched/invented/discovered This anti natural process.The thing which is against the nature would be Punished,Not rewarded certainly.
      On the Other hand I think that homos are already experiencing the hell,Probably they can fill requisition farm for Heaven.....

      1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
        Hollie Thomasposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, the male+male, female+female is fairly common among animal species. Particularly some species of monkeys. Natural selection mate.

        1. avidix profile image60
          avidixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Hollie, Those monkeys might have seen Humans and monkeys are famous to copy...................... !!!!!

          1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
            Hollie Thomasposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I think you might find that humans are indeed of the primates. Therefore, it is unlikely that same sex relationships between certain species are a result of copying. Rather, natural selection. Perhaps then we need to open our minds and consider the fact that homosexuality is not unnatural, not at all. Mother nature has demonstrated this to us.

      2. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes it is as common as mud. smile


        Almost as common as ignorance and stupid homophobes. smile

      3. Hollie Thomas profile image59
        Hollie Thomasposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, unfortunately, gay men and women do experience, and often live in hell, ignorant and stupid people inflict this on them. It's commonly known as homophobia, gay bashing and denial of equal rights.

    37. 61
      anonymous personposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ive got the answer to your question .........they willl sadly go to hell BUT , there is this guy name jesus christ who died for our sins ...that means yes he will forgive you no matter what you did  or who you are .No you cant go to heaven as a homosexual but he will help you change that .and no in gods eyes being a homosexual is no different than being an adulterer or a murderer.there is no degree in sin in his eyes..even the thought of adultery is the same as commiting audletry.this is no opinion but a fact in christian belief. smile

    38. val777 profile image60
      val777posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The nature of God is pure Holiness. In God's presence NO sin can be tolerated. Giving in to homosexual urges is a sin and no different than committing adultery, or the other sexual sins. Only those whose sins have been forgiven will enter God's heaven. For those who desire to continue in lifestyles against God's plan and refuse to accept his forgiveness for those sins, they have indirectly chosen hell!

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "The Kingdom of Heaven" ... heaven ..  paradise ???

           I don't think that these are (all three) the same place!

          according to what scripture says ....  there are only 144,000 who have not sinned; "These" are the only people that are raptured and follow Jesus wherever he goes.

          All of the rest that have repented of their sins are allowed into heaven, but not allowed into the the  KINGDOM  of heaven.

          And then there is Paradise.

           I must admitt, I can not argue, this can be said to be ...            "just my intrpretation"

        1. val777 profile image60
          val777posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This particular viewpoint of yours, sounds like it is coming from a Jehovah Witness standpoint. When I wrote about going to heaven, I was giving the biblical version of heaven. God has clearly opened heaven to all forgiven and redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Actually, the bible says that a new heaven and earth will be created for his saints and the new heaven will be called "New Jerusalem".

  2. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    If God made men he or she made gay people.
    Should God go to hell when dies?

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hmmmm, two philosophical points in your reply.  God could be a woman?  And, should God go to hell when he dies?  Very interesting.  I always thought God was exempt from Hell.

      1. 0
        Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No God isn't exempt from hell, because Jesus is said to have descended into hell for three days after the crucifixion.

      2. ipodcaster profile image60
        ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God is our Mother and Father. The religions tried to obliterate the feminine principle of God. Jesus spoke of God as father -- and not mother -- because in his time everyone would have laughed at him and rejected his ideas. In his time, women were non-persons, they were stoned, left to die, they had no rights. Men had all the power, and so God had to be seen as male. Jesus spoke so that they might understand -- he even said this.

      3. kellyteam profile image61
        kellyteamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus died once for all, never to die again. That would make him human.

        1. val777 profile image60
          val777posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sure, his dying meant that Jesus was human, but he rose from that death and was seen alive after his death, that is the part that amazes us and sets him apart from other humans. That is also the part that makes him God....

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry, and you don't see anything wrong with someone who was claimed to have risen from the dead? You swallow it hook, line and sinker?

            It shouldn't amaze you, it should raise a lot of red flags.

            1. val777 profile image60
              val777posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Jesus was seen by over 300 people after his death. His disciples wrote about this, as they were all eyewitnesses... I'm sure, not all 300 were delusional ! Besides, Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection.  Jesus came to our world knowing that he would die for us, all so we could be forgiven and live eternally, instead of be lost eternally.

              1. livelonger profile image89
                livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How many people are absolutely sure they've seen Elvis or Tupac after their deaths?

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                That is an obvious lie.



                Maybe, but most likely they were lying, just like many Christians do here.



                So, a fairy tale man predicted his own fairy tale ending? lol



                I don't want anyone dying for me, that is just so horribly wrong. I am not lost eternally so I don't need to be forgiven.

          2. 60
            Rabgixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            People don't come back from the dead...

      4. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
        tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        GOD is Master of all...in the end all must answer to HIM...including hell...

        Revelation 20:12-14
        King James Version (KJV)
        12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

        13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

        14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    2. Forrest Decker profile image61
      Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      God made all men but  he did not made our choices.  He gave us free will we make our choices to sin or not to sin.  Our brain is not prewire to be homosexual but we can wire our brain to be homosexual by our choices.  Look at the research in brain when someone injured the brain it can rewire itself.  There are also research that show that the brain can rewire itself to take on task that it was not wire to do.  God have made men to be able to do any task he/she choices.  It is up to us to make the right choice not God.

      1. avidix profile image60
        avidixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God has given us the Ears to Listen and Nose to smell.We can not listen from nose and can not smell from ears, where as in the homo case the are misusing their organs...

        1. livelonger profile image89
          livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, and most of the female ants and bees in a colony have organs they will never use either. Stupid ants and bees - shouldn't all of them be procreating all the time?!

  3. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    They will be in a different heaven then the fundies.  There will be fruity drinks, techno music, and decent decorating.  The fundies will have Newt Gingrich, Lawrence Welk, and 24 hours a day of "It's a Wonderful Life" Orange shag carpet and twin beds for everyone!!!

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I wish I was a believer, that sounds like a blast.

    2. 0
      Marie-AnneLeClercposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Love the sound of it - 'hell be it!' I guess God will be very dissapointed in me...

    3. amymarie_5 profile image89
      amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's awesome!

      1. avidix profile image60
        avidixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What !!!

    4. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Great sense of humor. Keep it up. smile

    5. Forrest Decker profile image61
      Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Heaven will be great.  No more sorrow and surffering.   The lame will walk, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the mute will talk.  No pain, no sickness, no hatred.  Heaven will be all we think of and more.  Heaven is when we humen will have the relationship that was ment for us to have before men fail.  No men will not be angel in heaven but humen in a new body.  That why Christains want to go to heaven.

  4. Greek One profile image80
    Greek Oneposted 5 years ago

    of course they will get to Heaven...

    they will just chose to enter through the back gates

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Now that was witty.

      1. Mark Ewbie profile image83
        Mark Ewbieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It was very good.  Annoying really because I trolled up thinking what can I put that's funny and.. yep.. too late as usual.

      2. livelonger profile image89
        livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        He always is - one of the most consistently funny guys here. smile

    2. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      wow, that was witty.

    3. cindi h profile image61
      cindi hposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      As usual, you are too funny Greek one smile

    4. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yuk yuk Cute smile

    5. Darknlovely3436 profile image35
      Darknlovely3436posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lolo lol lol

    6. avidix profile image60
      avidixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Great !!! Greek.......

  5. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Honestly, I'm sure there is an answer and only God knows it.  My personal belief is that if you are saved and doing your best to live a good life you are in the door.  If I was God, I'd be pretty damn tired of the whole debate by now.

    1. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
      tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      works, or good deeds alone is not what saves. there is only one way to obtain salvation...by accepting JESUS CHRIST as the Son of GOD. by accepting HIS gift of redemption. even then it is possible to lose salvation...it is as easy for your name to be erased from the book of life as it was to be placed there in the first place. if you dont take GOD at HIS word and obey HIM...then you dont love HIM nor worship HIM...you worship a self made image of HIM that allows you to live and think as you please, regardless of what GOD may have said about it.

      1. Seafarer Mama profile image86
        Seafarer Mamaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, please. King David committed so many atrocities, but God loved him and chastised him...and he did not lose his salvation.

        To an extent, accepting God's gift of salvation is at least somewhat connected to our deeds. We cannot have faith that we are saved and not show compassion to at least one other human in our lives.  So, I think it is both our acceptance of God's salvation and our deeds that determines where our souls go in the afterlife.

        Why is it that so many people use the salvation thing to try to control what others think? They act like if someone doesn't think or act like them, they are doomed. I believe in a creator who loves us the way we are.

        1. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
          tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Revelation 22:19
          And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


          this proves one can lose their salvation.

  6. wilderness profile image98
    wildernessposted 5 years ago

    According to Jesus all that is needed to gain access to heaven is a belief in Him.

    Actions don't matter, asking forgiveness doesn't matter.  Only belief and a homosexual can certainly believe.

    1. Randy Godwin profile image94
      Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, what Jesus supposedly said was according to the guy, who heard it from another guy, who interpreted it from something written by another guy, who didn't like the way it was made up, and therefore......smile

      1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
        Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, 2 of the Gospels were eyewitness accounts, and the other two were directly from Peter(an eyewitness)'s information about Jesus.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image94
          Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, you are wrong again, Jacob. Geesh, where did you learn the origin of your favorite guidebook, in church?  It's the absolute worst place to learn about the origin of your bible, you know.

          The actual writers of the gospels are unknown and are considered to be anonymously written at least 30 years to several centuries after the death of the supposed Jesus person.  Why do you think the Gospels are prefaced with "according to"?  Or perhaps you think the eyewitnesses waited for a couple of hundred years before writing down the "miracles" they witnessed?  smile

          1. kellyteam profile image61
            kellyteamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually the bible was written within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. Besides that are you aware that there are over 25,000 documented archeological finds that substantiate the people, places and things referred to in the Bible. Sure, I originally learned about the bible in church, but further study outside the church, as you would do for anything else sheds more light on the truth.

            1. thebrucebeat profile image61
              thebrucebeatposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Most scholars agree that Mark was written in the '60's, Matthew and Luke in the '70's and John in the '90's, and all of the authors remain anonymous.  There is very little disagreement on these points.

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yahshua (Jesus to you) never taught it took belief in him, and nothing else to do. That's what Paul taught

      People are born gay and have no control over it

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        John 14:6  and John 6:40

        Simple google search. Apparently, he did make that claim.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ______

          Yahshua never spoke of himself, he spoke of God

          John 12:49
          For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

          And

          John 14:10
          Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I wouldn't get into an argument with you as to who, and what, Yeshua  was. I was simply pointing out that he did, indeed, make the statements you said he didn't. The statements you quote do not negate them.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              __________

              I know, he is God to you, and I won't argue that rubbish

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm agnostic. I think all religion is rubbish. Doesn't mean I haven't read your texts. I know you will all bicker amongst yourselves, I just like to see it kept honest.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol Guess we all think we are being honest.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes. To an extent. The conversation with Deborah began because she stated that Yeshua never made a statement that is easily found in the text. Her claim was made either from a stand of ignorance, or dishonesty. I was simply pointing out to her that the statement had been made. She attempted to refute the proof and failed.

    3. Jesus-Saves profile image60
      Jesus-Savesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes we are justified before God by the grace of Christ, and we receive that grace through faith. But that faith, if it does not produce good works, then it is not a genuine faith.
      "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
      If you genuinely accept Jesus as your LORD and Saviour, then you will (out of love) delight to obey his Law, because you know this makes Him happy.
      "If ye love Me, keep My commandments" John 14:15
      This obedience has no merits, but, it is evidence that you have accepted Christ (faith in Christ).
      And since the judgement nessesitates evidence, then the evidence that Christ will show to the universe that indeed you have faith in Him, is your obedience to His Law.
      "So speak ye and so do as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty" James 2:12
      "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclessiastes 12:13-14

      "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

      So, we are justified by faith (tree), but judged by our works (fruits). A good tree will always produce good fruits. In the judgement, Christ will reveal your works before the universe to show them whether your faith in Him is genuine or not.

      1. Forrest Decker profile image61
        Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So true. You have stated it right.  The Truth will not be love by all. Sin is Sin.  God love all but he cannot allow sin to go unpunish.  No good parent would allow his/her child to run out into a busy street.  God like all parent do not want any harm to come to use but we have free will.  If we have no free will we would be no better then angels when they fail they are doom to hell.  God loves all and we should love all as well.  Love will bring more to heaven. Is not love what we all want?

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          This is absolute bunk in my view. No harm? What planet do you live on? A billion prayers a day and half the world starving. I guess they are all the "sinners"

          This sort of intellectual imbecility should have disappeared a thousand years ago.

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree.  But furthering the analogy, I only try to raise my own children.  I do not (usually) tell other peoples children what to do.  I certainly don't tell other people's children who to love (since I don't tell my own children who they should love, this is a given)

          Who are you to judge another master's servant?  If that master is Allah, Budda, or even just ones own intellect, then it is beyond the scope of Christian judgement, rules, or opinion.

          Christ made that exceedingly clear, I believe.

        3. Forrest Decker profile image61
          Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I am not telling you should love one person then hate another person.  But if we love each other like Jesus did we would love all.  Christian faith is base on the Bible.  Christian mean Christ likeness.  Christ help all who came to him.  He also was teaching that the way of the world was wrong.

          1. 60
            Rabgixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Really? Because my first cousin died of lung cancer last year (not a smoker) and lost his first two kids in a car accident.

            He was extremely Christian.

    4. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not sure I believe that. I think that Christ meant that we are to believe in him to the point where we do as he did: Believing as doing. He was/is our teacher. And he told us to heal the sick with our hands and raise the dead, to love, and to direct our thoughts, etc. When asked about his miracles, he said: Greater things ye shall do. WOW! That's a tall order -- so, most people just worship him and forget the part about "putting on the new man" and reaching levels of great spiritual power. This is where religions have failed us. They make us powerless by not knowing what "putting on the new man" means. It is a HUGE leap in consciousness! If we were spiritually powerful, if we truly had dominion over the Earth, we would become like him. This is what is meant to happen. People play Jesus small, and God too. We were with Jesus before the foundation of the world, or so says the bible. We are so much more than our human minds can comprehend. We've played everything too small -- except the pain of living on Earth. We've made that our main occupation. Truly, we are mysterious creatures to ourselves. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within. Inside yourself, in that quiet, calm place where our minds stop chattering about all the trials and tribulations of living on Earth. Stop the chatter and you'll eventually hear your spirit speak. The spirit is our eternal self, the child of God. The true offspring. Jesus said: "Be IN the world, but don't be of it." We are spiritual beings having an Earthy experience in a body.

      1. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
        tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        loving GOD is not about how powerful WE can become...we are nothing. we didnt and cant earn GODs love or HIS salvation...it is a gift. putting on the new man is not about becoming some supernatural powerful being...it is about overcoming your sinful nature, becoming CHRIST like...by CHRIST like i mean treating others with love and respect, loving GOD and obeying HIM...to the letter. if GOD sees fit to bless us with other gifts...that is HIS business. as paul said...not everyone has all gifts. for some their only gift is having empathy and compassion for their fellow man, for others it might be healing with a touch...but only GOD can say who has what gift and why.


        @Jesus Saves....wonderful post...right on the mark.

    5. tlmcgaa70 profile image70
      tlmcgaa70posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      if all it took was belief in CHRIST to obtain salvation, and if homosexuals only had to believe...then your statement would be true...however you are wrong...once we accept salvation, we must change from the old man to the new...put off the ways of the world, the sinful life we once lived...we dont accept salvation and then keep on living in sin, expecting GOD to just forgive us and save us...it doesnt work that way.

    6. A Thousand Words profile image80
      A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, I am not a christian myself, but how do you define belief? Belief and actions are tied. If you truly believe something, your actions will follow that belief. As a former christian, I know that a scripture that many reference is that the demons believe that Jesus is real and tremble also, so the "belief" they talk about isn't just intellectual, but applied. I believe in that principle, because it makes sense. I just don't believe the other stuff, anymore.

  7. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    I don't think it's so much morality as stupidity. Good people killing bad people
    where all the killers on either side, think they are the good ones. Can there be blame? Hell is reserved for morons.

  8. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    --"According to Christian doctrine, Paul said there are a large number of people that don't get into heaven, including non-Christians, thieves, drunkards, (what some would interpret to mean) gays, etc."--

    Maybe if, "gay", was used to mean happy.

    How do you come up with these interpretations?

    Seriously?

    How do you get that, "drunkards", equals, gays as in homosexuals?

    That is rich... bettter than the, "Eunich means homosexual", line.

    You are a perfect example of Secular Humanist Biblical Scholarship, do you dismiss the super-natural aspects of the Bible out of hand? Ohh you just do not believe. Never mind then... you're simply biased from the go.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I could be wrong, but, I think that there is a big difference between heaven and, The Kingdom of heaven.

      1. ipodcaster profile image60
        ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The kingdom is within. Learn to stop the chatter of your mind and be still, and you'll find the door. It takes time and loving discipline.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It also takes understanding which does not see personal growth as having anything to do with any god/s

          Anyone getting their education about life from one book excluding other books and beliefs is learning nothing about themselves.

        2. Seafarer Mama profile image86
          Seafarer Mamaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          here here. This is so true!

  9. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Why does anyone even make threads anymore, why not just immediately start calling each other stupid and telling everyone they are burning in hell?

    How do I clean my floors?

    Burn in hell you non-believer...If you believed in God they would clean themselves.

    Review my hub?

    Your hub sucks! Die you leftest pig!

    Anyone from the San Diego Area?

    Stop asking questions you ignorant fundy!

  10. getitrite profile image78
    getitriteposted 5 years ago

    Leviticus 20:13~~If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    (KJV)

    With verses like this, I really doubt that gays are welcomed in heaven!

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      ____________

      He was speaking to the Levitical Priests, they were Temple conduct rules. A Priest couldn't do a lot of things a regular person could.

      1. calpol25 profile image75
        calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you Deborah for pointing that out, honestly these passages that people quote are sometimes blown right out of proportion.

      2. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's false in light of the surrounding passages that clearly show the rules are for everyone.   The Bible makes note of the specific rules that are specifically for priests because of the duties of their particular vocation,  as in Leviticus 21: 10:  ".....he that is the high priest among his brethren........shall not....."  etc.

        Chapter 20 begins with the Lord tells Moses to "...say to the children of Israel..." and even "....of the strangers that sojoun in Israel,....."  etc.,  following which He lays down all those rules including the one in verse 13.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          yes that's right
          smile

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ____________________________

          I'm afraid not Brenda. There are Priests and High Priests. Two different positions that's why they are differentiated. These are all Temple Laws.

          If we see the truth we see this is not a ticket to hate homosexuals.
          SORRY

          It is how they are born and they can not change their nature.
          It has been proven that certain areas in the brain of homosexual males are the exact same size of those in women and much smaller than a straight males

          1. 0
            Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You must never let evidence get in the way of a good belief.  Just because scientists, doctors and psychologists know that sexuality isn't a choice, will make little difference to the believer, because they have Jesus or Allah or Wotan of Zeus on their side.  So, game, set and match, the religious win.

          2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Nobody hates homosexuals!
            Nobody hates..period (least its not posted here)

            Ok I admitt it gets attention to post such untruth,causes a sensation, blah blah blah...but it just isnt so ,so there tongue

            As for the rest of your statement ,put up or ...shhh up lol

            On a side note maybe my DNA says I should be slim and beautiful...boy am I mad at God wink

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Deborah is right. Plenty of studies give evidence that people are born homosexual. I don't understand why this is such an issue with some christians.

              You guys say it isn't hate, and I'm sure you believe that. But, it certainly does come off that way, to the casual observer. Why is that? Do you think?

              It isn't that we're anti God as many of you have implied. There are plenty of people who believe in God posting here that don't agree with the anti homosexual stance. smile

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It is an issue Emile because we have seen ,ok I have seen some information and it is not conclusive at all.

                If you know something I dont ,Im open to seeing it smile

                1. earnestshub profile image87
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Why would you even question it Kiwi?

                  Proven or not, it is obvious that some people impose their religious beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, that is the real problem here.

                  For starters it is none of their damn business is it?
                  And by what authority do they condemn?

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I have never questioned anyones right to do whatever they want ..but when they feel compelled to use medical authority,then why not post it..

                    God knows I have to post why I believe what I do lol


                    I guess I am adressing the people in question and not any individual homosexual smile

                2. 0
                  Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this
                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks-will check a couple of them out.

                3. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  We can never see what we don't want to.  If you are not open to the possibility that you aren't looking at this from an unbiased angle, nothing will change your mind.  But, here.  This article is from the Boston Globe and isn't pushing an agenda, imo.  They just tell you the studies that were done and what the results were, and also what is still considered up in the air; in pretty plain english. 

                  http://web.mac.com/ddjudge/ddjudge/Inte … %20Gay.pdf

              2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                There is also plenty of evidence that says Deborah is not right.
                Several Universities all over the world present papers and a big number of them highlight the fact that genetics and environment also play a role,in predisposing one to homosexuality.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I wouldn't argue with you that different studies have come to different conclusions.  This does not mean that some studies are wrong.  It means that different questions were asked and different groups of people were studied.  We are all unique.  Anyone that says that there is one simple answer that can be applied across the board to everyone is ignoring this fact. There is concrete proof of biological differences for some.  There are valid studies that show environment can play a role in some.

                  I grew up with two guys that are homosexual. They came out in college.  I actually dated one of them in high school.  I knew them throughout their early and late teens. I knew their families.  I can see the environmental argument for one, and the biological argument for the other.  But, whatever their reasons for being who they are; it is who they are.  It is who they know themselves to be and it is how they found happiness. I was mad at them for years for not trusting me enough as a friend to be honest; but I have to be honest with myself and accept the fact that I may have somehow been a contributing factor in their fear of sharing.

                  Nothing in life is black and white. Insisting that there is one answer across the board and that answer is, in some ways, (whether you choose to see it or not) a condemnation of others because they don't 'believe' the same things we do is an affront to the sensibilities of those who fall into the category of what some percieve to be different. It is emotional persecution.  Sure, no one is throwing real stones; but they are stones, nonetheless.

                  If you've ever been excluded, made to feel as if you don't fit in, treated as lower class for any reason that you felt was unfair; that is persecution. Multiply that 7x70 and that is how someone who is forced to live with a stigma of being percieved as different feels from the time they wake up, until they go to bed. Multiply it 70x700 and that is how they feel when someone with religion says God did not make them who they are, can't love them for what they are; when they are being honest with themselves and living in line with you they know themselves to be.

                  God is a powerful concept.  When those who claim a relationship and share their idea of knowledge; if it isn't wrapped in complete and unadulterated love and acceptance it is not a word. It is turned into a weapon. I don't understand why those that claim faith can't see this. They claim God made them and accepts them in all of their imperfections; but find 'valid' reasons why others can't make the same claim.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I have often said the same thing ,just in fewer words wink

                    I also think its a personal decision accepting or rejecting Christ.I agree totally with you that life is not black and white,however Gods word does seem to be quite clear on certain issues. (Not just homosexuality)

                    How that is percieved ,once again is up to the individual.

                    I guess if we wanted to ,we could all find evidence to back up our opinions/thoughts etc,such is the jungle of information online and perhaps personal experiences etc.

                  2. livelonger profile image89
                    livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Very nicely put.

                    I think the answer to your last question is that they're too old to change their thinking on it. Some might even agree with you - they'd never admit it - but after 50-60 years of believing one thing, they've decided they're going to die with their myth.

                    Fortunately their children and grandchildren tend to think differently about it.

            2. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well said, Eaglekiwi. 

              lol @ the "mad at God" joke!   He short-changed me too! I thought I should look like Michelle Pfeifer or Sharon Stone.....  I can't figger out why I don't!!  tongue wink

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                lol well its noted Im sure, and Brenda , we will be saying

                Move over Michelle and Sharon ,the Glory Girls are in the house!

                p.s Thank-you.

                1. 0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Glory girls...hahaha

                  You're welcome.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    To blessed to be stressed.

                    To annointed to be disappointed.

                    Cheesy ,I know ,but hey anyone offering anything better smile

            3. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              __________________________
              I have my masters in nursing and work for a research and training hospital. Email me and I'll give you the number so you can call them and request a copy pf their studies.

              A certain person in this thread has expressed hate many times in other threads

              Put up or shhup??..you do sound like a christian smile

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have goggled other Universities and teaching hospitals ,but thanks for the email offer all the same.

                Doctors,Scientists, then all the specialists in their field constantly research and research,updating information etc etc,but its called research for a reason-checking to find a system of facts.

                It seems that even Scientists can not agree. wink

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sure, it's easy to agree on something if a holy book commands you to agree.

                  But, if we're trying to find real answers to hard questions, then it may actually take time, effort and resources to do so, in which the results and evidence may not be so easy to decipher and there may be disagreement. After some time though, the disagreement will become agreement as more evidence is brought forth.

                  The easy way out is to just open a holy book and bleat like sheep.

                2. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  _________
                  So why didn't you read this when I posted it?
                  Like our hospital, they used MRIs and Cat Scans to SEE the brain.

                  I found something on the internet about the size of brain parts in gay people


                  http://www.time.com/time/health/article … 38,00.html
                  Posted 19 hours ago

                   


                  Here are two more about the size of brain parts


                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

                  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01038.html


                  A Quote by Dr. Rahman

                  "As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay"
                  Dr Qazi Rahman
                  Queen Mary, University of London

                3. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ____________
                  Isn't it funny I found dozens (see below). Scientists don't use MRIs or Cat Scans either.  Yes research is about finding facts and our hospital and many others found the facts about homosexuals.
                  It is about FINDING Facts

                  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en& … gle+Search

                  Sorry this does not support bias against gay people

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    A cat scan shows how likely a person is to becoming an athelete too-likely,if they choose it.

                    It is not very scientific to think they can tell who is a homosexual from a cat scan lol

                4. Forrest Decker profile image61
                  Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You are right not all scientist agree.  Look at global warming.  So anyone can take some research and say that homosexual is a choice other can take another research and say it is not a choice.  I beleave that the Holy Bible is the Truth.  There is many facts in the Bible that the writers of the Bible could not have know of. How would they know that the Earth is round or air have weight.  We try to put God in a box but he does not fit.  We Christian do not have all the answer.  If you really have all the answer then let hear it.  Can anyone with 100% say that Bible is just no more then a book of false information.  Can you really say that we Christian follow a man that die becouse he only think he was God in humen form.  I have was save when I was teenager and I am now 43 year old.  I am still learning about God, Christ, and the Bible.  How can a Christian or nonchristian put the God of this universe into a box.  I can not even travel to the nearest star in my lifetime.  So how can one man say he got the answer to God or the universe.  All men knowledge from the first man until the end of time would not be enough to put men wits up against God wits.  For those who say there no God or gods then what will happen to all when universe come to the end.  I beleave we are souls that will be forever either in heaven or the great lake of fire (hell).  The question is the Bible True or False?  Not will a homosexual go to heaven or hell.  Is God the beginning and the ending?  Who is God?  Can the universe begin with out the help of God?  Can life on Earth begin without the helping hand of God.  Please tell me how universe is place of order (Einstern pointed it out) if it came out of nothing.  I know that one man cannot it all but then there is a truth somewhere. Why can it not be the Bible?  So what is the TRUTH?  I say it is the Bible.  What do you say?

      3. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        He wasn't actually speaking to the levitical priests exclusively.
        verse 2 clears this up:

        Again you shall say to the Children of Israel, whoseover he be of the children of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn.

        God was talking to His children.. all 12 tribes of Israel and of course this means us today.
        God does not change, he disliked homosexuality then and He still does today, the difference is, today he is more willing to forgive
        IF
        they desire to change their ways; sincerely desire.

    2. amymarie_5 profile image89
      amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      the scary thing is that the fundies take this crap literally!

      1. odonnelb profile image60
        odonnelbposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I would rather live as if there WAS a God and die to find out that there WASN'T, then to live as if there WASN'T a God and die to find out that there WAS.

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Amen smile

          How intelligent.

        2. Randy Godwin profile image94
          Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But if you worship the wrong god you may end up in hell anyway.  You really haven't given this much thought have you?  The different possibilities, I mean.  There aren't merely two, you know. 

          Fundies!  They never could figure probabilities.  lol

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Faith Randy-Faith smile

            Faith to believe when God said..

            “I have loved you with an everlasting love;
               I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

            I stand for something ,so I dont fall for anything tongue

            1. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Perhaps EK. but some gamblers have full faith in a horse, before it loses the race to another horse.  smile  Just pointing the lack of logic some use to proclaim their faith is only one of two possible options.  smile

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                True enough Randy:)

                And I have faith every time I step onto a plane that the pilot will get me to where he says he will. ( And I dont even know the guy ,or have seen his creditials). Same with the surgeon,as I fall under a deep sleep.


                Faith is described as things hoped for unseen and that about sums it all up smile

                How are you by the way? its finally cooling down here ,Kiwigirl likes that smile alot.

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Faith is powerful Kiwi. smile

        3. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That's not very intelligent.

          If you lived your life in denial of all the other gods, what would you do if you found out one of them was real and your god was not?

          That would be even worse than living a life believing in a god when no gods exist.

          1. Forrest Decker profile image61
            Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Really then that could mean that we all is doom.  But then tell me how you know who you should worship?  Why not the God of the Bible to worship?  See if that is correct then we have no way to know who is God of this universe.  That also mean we Christain are following a crazy man who said he was God in humen form.  Do you not beleave that there is truth out there somewhere?

            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Do you have any idea how many crazy people as you called them followed a "christ" in biblical times? or how many "christs" there were?
              I bet you would have trouble naming one, yet you claim the one that is biblical is the one.
              The others were wrong too. It was a good way to keep yourself at the time. Get a bunch of followers to feed you.

              1. Forrest Decker profile image61
                Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You are right there were many who call themself Messiah.  Even today you can find those who proclaim to be Messiah.  Then the question is is there a son of God (Christ) that came to Earth to set menkind free.  Therefore many proclaiming to be Messiah do not make the biblical Messiah to be false.  Is this not about what is Truth?  Let put it this way for those seeking the truth the Bible is a good book to study as well as other holy writting.  Then let them decide what is the Truth.  What you and I say really is two men with two views.  For those who read this seek with an open mind.  The truth is out there for those who seek it.  I am a proclaim Chistain saying that God will let any who seek the truth know it.

                1. earnestshub profile image87
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you for the polite and reasoned response Forrest.
                  The biblical Messiah I would suggest was a fateful set of circumstances. Perhaps several others had as much tenure. It would seem difficult to select a particular evangelical from the period who would be the one true son of god, as these messianic figures were all singing from the same song that had been sung by others many years before and recycled.
                  The current documentaries clear this up pretty well in my opinion. smile

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              We are either all doomed or not doomed at all. If there are many religions vying for your obedience and worship, then they are probably all false and none of their gods exist, including yours.

              The only truth we can be sure of is the truth we find in ourselves and the world around us.

    3. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The old testament is invalid. Christ set us free from that. We are no longer in the age of law, but in the age of grace. To believe otherwise is to invalidate what Christ did.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The old testament is the source of your christian religion, and it's totally psychotic god is jesus's father according to all those who follow it.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          OT is not the source of christianity... CHRIST likeness... there was no christ in the OT earnest or did you not thoroughly study it enough to notice that Christ is NT. So the source of CHRISTianity is NT .. NOT the OT.. because:
          1 Corinthians 10:11   Now all these things happened unto them (OT) for samples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

          I gotta be careful when correcting those that have studied bible for 30 years when i've been at this for 2 yrs. lol

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I know, I know! You are a genius and a legend in your own lunchtime who eats Hawking and Einstein for breakfast because you can make word soup from a bunch of recycled stories that have been told since ra.

            You won't be needing my adoration after all. lol

            1. Jonathan Janco profile image82
              Jonathan Jancoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually earnest, the stories have been told since Anu. Ra came much later.
              smile

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And they have not changes much .....   Maybe God has worn many names trying to get our attention?

                1. Jonathan Janco profile image82
                  Jonathan Jancoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  True, same story different language.

                  From Anu to Enki to Marduk to Ra to Zeus to Jupiter to Yahweh

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Is it a copy cat thingie or just a sequal   pt 1,  pt 2,  pt3 ,  pt 4  etc.?

              2. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I stand corrected. smile The Sumerians may have invented the first trinity. smile

      2. getitrite profile image78
        getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So I guess Christ had to clean up the insane blunders of His foolish Father...who, by the way, created the universe!

        Just how absurd can this BS get?

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It wasn't a clean up it was a fulfillment and an ending to usher in something more effective. Still the judiac believers did not want to part from the law even after this drastic event.

          1. Forrest Decker profile image61
            Forrest Deckerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            We men got off track Jesus was here to correct men not God.  No man can obey all the law we are only humen.  So God have made it where we can be save through grace not through the law. Brotheryochanan you are doing well among by the worves of the untruth.  It show me that you really love God.  Yes 2 years as a Christian not a lot of time but your heart is in the right place.  May God Bless you.

      3. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        __________________

        You have never been under the Levitical Law, but you are still under God's law..which will never pass away.

  11. bethparker profile image89
    bethparkerposted 5 years ago

    According to my Bible, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and ask Him to forgive your sins and be Lord of your life, you are going to heaven. 

    Homosexuality is a sin, but it is no more or less than any other sin.  None of us are perfect.  We all have something we struggle with, and becoming a Christian doesn't change that.  There are times that I snap at my husband or whatever.  I try to do what is right, but sometimes I fail. When that happens, you ask forgiveness and try to do better in the future.

    By the way, once you are saved, you are saved.  You don't lose your ticket to heaven every time you screw up.  And we all screw up now and then!

    I hope that helps.

    Beth Parker

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, it's so much easier just to be an atheist.  There is no arguing, no interpreting, no fighting.  Just peace.

      1. livelonger profile image89
        livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Atheists don't argue or fight with each other?

        1. 0
          Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Of course atheists argue with each other, as arguing is so much a part of what makes us human.  However, I have never heard of an atheist fly a plane into a building in the name of their lack of belief in God.  Yet, throughout the centuries Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs have all killed each other in the name of their gods.  Atheists are repeatedly criticised for not having a basis for morality, because it is suggested, that a lack of belief in a deity will turn us all into murderers.  Yet, as the  peace of religion has been the cause of so much hatred and death, I fail to see that the religious dare think they have the right to claim the moral high- ground.  If hating in the name of Jesus or Allah is to be recommended as a sign of virtue, then give me immorality any day.

          The religious will always say, don't judge religion by its followers.  Yet what is a religion, if not a body of followers?  A tree can only be judged by the fruit it produces.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Even the best tree, however, has stinking rotten fruit that falls from it and pollutes the ground below it.  The worth of a faith shouldn't be judged by the worst fruit but the best.

          2. livelonger profile image89
            livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That's really simplistic. You're arguing that people become bad because of religion, and because atheists don't have religion, they can't be bad. (Are you?)

            The truth is that people can be bad. Religious people can ascribe their bad behavior to a religion, while atheists do not (they might ascribe it to another non-religious ideology, or none at all).

            I agree religion doesn't automatically translate into virtue, but it doesn't translate into evil, either.

            1. 0
              Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hardly simplistic at all.  Name me one war currently being fought in the name of atheism.  Name me one terrorist who has blown up a packed bus in the name of atheism. Name me one plane flown into a building in the name of atheism.   Name me one atheist who is prepared to die or kill in the name of their atheism.  I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, but you are an apologist for religion, and I think it is necessary for people who aren't religious to point out the fact that the hatred we see on the news is at least 90% of the time in the name of religion.  In fact, I see the need to point this out as a moral duty. Not to do so, would be ignoring the elephant in the room.  Of course atheists can be the cause of great evil.  Stalin for example caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people.  Yet, he never did this in the name of atheism.  Not once, did he say 'I shall kill people because I don't believe in God.'  When the religious do evil, it is always in the name of their God and their faith, it is their religious ideology which is the direct cause of their decision to fly planes into buildings.

              I am not saying for one moment, that all religious believers are evil, in fact the most aren't.  What I am saying, is that the majority of the wars, violence, acts of terrorism happening in the world are in the name of religion.  So, you can defend religion all you want, but you should recognise the damage that has been done over thousands of years, and which is still being done in the name of religion. 

              You say that the religious people who do bad, only ascribe their badness to religion, so you are therefore saying it cannot be blamed on their religion.  I beg to differ.  When sincere believing Muslims plant a bomb, they are doing it in the name of Allah.  When Christian fundamentalists protest at the funerals of servicemen in the US, they are doing it in the name of Jesus.  It is actually their religious belief which is the cause of their wicked actions.  To pretend otherwise is not only simplistic, by obviously untrue.

              So, to answer your question, yes I am saying that some people become bad because of religion.  The Muslim converts, who are filled with hatred in the name of Allah, would not be filled with that hatred, if they hadn't converted.  The Evangelical Christian who wants the death penalty introduced in the US for homosexuals, or who holds up signs at funerals, stating 'God hates fags' is doing so because of his/her religious beliefs.  You can deny this all you want, but the evidence would suggest otherwise.

              1. livelonger profile image89
                livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Nothing is done "in the name of atheism." The atheists who frequent this forum take pains to explain that atheism is not a movement or a formalized grouping, but rather a collection of people who simply don't believe. There is nothing binding atheists other than the fact that they don't believe. It would be just as silly to say nationalism is the cause of all wars, since no one has fought in a war in the name of non-nationalism.

                As your Stalin example makes clear, atheists can still hold dogmas and dangerous ideologies without mention of a god. It would seem the problem are absolutist ideologies of all sorts, of which radical religions are just a part. Did Ted Kaczynski plant bombs in the name of a religion?

                If religion impels people to do bad things, then why do a majority of coreligionists not feel impelled to do those same bad things? Why do the latter very often say their religion tells them to *not* do those things?

                Besides, a lot of those things are stereotypes. Take a look at page 31 in this survey:
                http://www.abudhabigallupcenter.com/Fil … LR_web.pdf
                Muslim Americans are considerably more likely to believe that terrorist attacks against civilians are never justified than atheists. Higher levels of mosque attendance did not affect the likelihood of supporting terrorism.

                There are many, many religious people (some here, in fact) that say that their religion makes them more likely to be better people: less likely to be violent, more likely to give to charity, more kind to their neighbor, etc.

                As a gay man, believe me, I understand the resentment towards people who are most homophobic always using Biblical verses to justify their hatred. What I'm saying is that religion can be used to justify just about anything bad if you want it to.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Actually I love all people because God commanded it. wink

                  Christians dont make the rules ,but ought to be doing their best every hour of every day to follow Christs example,which is an ongoing daily walk.
                  Is it a cake walk ,of of course not
                  Are they perfect ,no,again

                  Humilty however doesnt mean lack of confidence and meekness is not weakness.

                  1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
                    Hollie Thomasposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Sincere love is  involuntary, an emotion you cannot control. It can't be switched on or off. Therefore, you cannot be commanded to love.

              2. cr8iv1 profile image61
                cr8iv1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                My friend you keep coming in a circle about planes flown into building, acts of terror committed against innocents are all religious acts. Do you go to work daily, brush your hair, make your bed, all these things you do religously. A true follower of God and the only God are in a relationship not a religion. I am sick of being painted with the same brush that the unenlightened use when they try to explain why there is evil in the word. Truth be told and you admit this yourself. The perpitrators of the worlds great wars and war crime did it without a belief that they would be answerable to God, Atheists.

                Most of the Liberal laws that are being past in the western world that are decaying the moral worth of society are being past by atheists. It is their lack of true belief, is the reason that we have absolute caos is the lack of a moral compass and their belief that there is no recompance to be answered to when Jesus comes again.

                Keep bashing religion as long as you want, but don't keep pulling true believers into your argument, I relate to God because He is Love, not because He is a book of rules that have to followed reliously.

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Very well-stated cr8iv1.

          3. ipodcaster profile image60
            ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Humans screw everything up. We can't see reality for what it is. We interpret all we see through faulty eyes.

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then you pretended to ask a question ,you really had no interest in seeing it being  answered..roll

      3. bethparker profile image89
        bethparkerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No offense, but if you were truly at peace with your decision to be an atheist, you would not feel compelled to ask religious questions.

        1. cooldad profile image60
          cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, I enjoy listening to hypocrisy.  I enjoy listening to religious people try to justify why another human being should or shouldn't be allowed into heaven just because of sexual orientation.  Some say they are an abomination and can't get into the exclusive heaven club.  Some say it's just a sin like any other and Jesus died for gays too and they can go to heaven.
          Which is it?  I thought the bible was your guideline, from the passages I've seen, gays should burn in hell.  But remember, I don't believe any of that.  It fascinates me that people do, it fascinates me how religious people judge one another.  I ask religious questions, because the whole process is intriguing to me.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Puzzles me why a homosexual man or woman would even contemplate being in heaven in the first place?

            Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman  to mean something other than that?

            Why blame other Christians for what Gods word says?

            Accept it ,Reject it.

            But don't complain about it.

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Kiwi, They feel convicted with the word of God, and take it out on the christians. Odd when we are falsely accused of being hateful.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Another "judgement" by those Jesus is said to have told "not to judge".  lol  How do you feel about the sin of gluttony?  One  almost never hears a sermon concerning this from the pulpit.  I wonder if it's because many preachers and religious advocates are obese? roll

                1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
                  Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It's not unlawful judgement if it's true, Randy! lol

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Who decides if it is true, Jakob?  Only christians, or do others have a say so too? smile

                2. Jakob Dailes profile image60
                  Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The Bible DOES say to be honest.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It also says to kill those who labor on the Sabbath. Have you ever witnessed people working on the Sabbath?  If so, how did you smite them?  The bible says to be honest, so let's see how literally you take it.  smile

                3. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Discernment is not judgement my friend.

                  We discern every day about "Is this street safe at night'?
                  "Do I trust this company with my money" "Is that 7 day crusise really free"?..."Should I loan my new car to someone Ive only known for a few weeks"? -Discernment.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So if you state "I judge this street to be unsafe at night" it would mean something different?  Without judging those frequenting the particular street, how do you discern the street is unsafe?

                  2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                    Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Perhaps we can have all have a descent discussion if everyone can learn the true definition of judgement. smile  You are absolutely correct Kiwi.

            2. Jakob Dailes profile image60
              Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It's been proven statistically that Christianity is more persecuted than any other religion. Why? So the meat-eating Jews and terrorist-Iraqis are better than Christians (whose holy book says to never harm anyone and to love your neighbour)? Oh yeah. We're worse.
              P.S. Jesus told us we'd be persecuted! Another prophecy to be added to the 100's in the Bible that have come true.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So there are no scriptures where god tells his followers to kill others?  Which bible are you reading? smile

                1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
                  Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay, so I messed up by not adding in "needlessly" at the end of that. Still, it's true.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So who determines if the killing is needed?  You didn't answer my former question regarding god's words concerning one who labors on the Sabbath.  How did you obey this scripture when you witnessed it happening?  did you obey the literal scripture written by the men "inspired by god"?  smile

              2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Jakob, I thank God for the value of persecution and rejoice in it. The bible prophecies is being fulfilled.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Easy to say when you aren't being fed to the lions. lol

                  1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
                    Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'd go to the lions for my faith anyday. How bout you, Randy? Would u die to prove ur atheism?

                2. A Thousand Words profile image80
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Talk to me about persecution when you're a former-Christian and the family you love very much thinks non-Christians are idiots and worthy of burning in hell. I'd much rather be decapitated, thanks.

                3. Uninvited Writer profile image84
                  Uninvited Writerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, I have heard that people debating with you on an online forum is persecution and will help you to achieve sainthood.

              3. odonnelb profile image60
                odonnelbposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                John 7:7 (AMP) - (Jesus speaking) "The world cannot [be expected to] hate you, but it does hate Me because I denounce it for it wicked works and reveal that its doings are evil."

                1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Nope. Actually, an unknown person, church tradition identified as John, although there is nothing to support the theory, supposedly told another unknown person what the supposed Jesus was supposed to have said and this unknown writer wrote it down over 50 years later.   

                  It doesn't sound so authoritative when the truth is really told about what "Jesus said," does it?  Merely hearsay at best.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Its Chapter 21 states it derives from the testimony of the 'disciple whom Jesus loved.' Jewish custom is that the author not mention their name in any texts. We can see this is OT practices.
                    Throughout the other gospels we can see that Jesus took with him often, peter, james and john.
                    John deals with aspects through a jewish perspective as does the other epistles of john. The books are very much identical.
                    I am fine with john writing all of these and i have no worries about the content of the gospel of john at all.

          2. cindi h profile image61
            cindi hposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            believe me, as a 'christian' I am just as amazed as you, if not more . There are as many different views and opinions within the Christian community as there are people in the world or stars in the sky. Think about it my fellow christians, God's WORDS according to the bible were not only translated from another language, they were transcribed  hundreds of years after the fact. How do we know that they were translated accurately? This was probably the first instance of the childhood game of telephone!  Some people take the bible literally, some take it metaphorically.  I tend to believe Father  Guido Sarducci ( catholic comic of the 70's) more than I believe the written 'WORD OF GOD'.  Father Sarducci thinks that Moses being an old frail man may have dropped the ten commandments on his way down the mountain and only remembered the bad ones like don't do this and don't do that. He thinks God was more instructional and helpful and the commandments for "wash your hands after using the toilet" and "wait 1 hour after eating to go swimming" were lost!! smilesmile

            1. 0
              Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Eaglekiwi, your obvious hatred of gay people does your religion credit, may God bless you for it.

              I agree with Cindi, that even Christians can't agree amongst themselves about which laws to follow and which not to.  I have previously listed many biblical laws, which Christians do not follow today, but Eaglekiwi has never been able to offer an explanation for this.  The only agreement such Christians seem to reach, is that the Old Testament laws are only to be followed by homosexuals, and that they don't apply to heterosexuals.

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Sherlock 21b your statement that I hate gay people is a lie and slandorous!

                Put up or shut up wink but dont lie.

                1. 0
                  Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I quote  - "Puzzles me why a homosexual man or woman would even contemplate being in heaven in the first place?

                  Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman  to mean something other than that?"

                  Doesn't seem much love in your own words to me.  If I have interpreted it incorrectly, then please explain what you meant.  And why do you assume that all gay men lie down with a man as if they were a woman?  Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not an act.

                  You cannot question the right of gay people to even contemplate being in heaven, yet suggest that this could be said in love.  It's like saying 'You disgust me, but I mean this in a loving way.  You should consider first how much your words have the power to hurt people.  If you cannot consider this, then expect criticism in response.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't write the Bible, but I have no shame in believingin it.

                    That doesn't mean I say or even think hateful things,because God is a God of love.

                    On the contrary I think your being very selfish to suppose you can dictate to God how love (and its actions) can be defined,when He has already put in place moral standards for everyone -not just homosexuals!

                    Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman  to mean something other than that?"

                    What is the problem,understanding that scripture?

                    I do no assume all gay people have sex with their own kind,but are you not splitting hairs there.

                    No matter ,I am not your judge.
                    I would eat with you.
                    I would work with you.
                    I would walk a hundred miles with you.

                    But based on the Bible, we would not be together in Heaven.

        2. ipodcaster profile image60
          ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Everyone should question their beliefs. There are no absolute truths for us. This is what frightens people. We desperately want truth --when, if it were in front of our noses, we wouldn't see it. Why? We can only accept that which we are ready to accept because we are all spiritually evolved at varying levels.

          Another thought: Atheists may not believe in the god that society has proclaimed as god. And I don't blame them. Once you experience the great mystery that life truly is, you know there's a God. Otherwise, you're just taking someone's word for it. The bible doesn't prove anything until something within it's pages leads one to greater spiritual heights and mystical experiences. To use the bible as a guidebook or as some kind of proof is weird, only because it can be interpreted in many different ways -- and, because some of the scrolls were left out by the Catholic Church. Spirit is to be experienced. If there are no experiences, God becomes a nothing -- unless, of course, you were brain-washed into believing in a god by your familial or social tribes.

          Start asking your questions to the Great Spirit, Allah, God, All-That-Is, The Divine, Jesus, the Great Light, Highest Light, Divine Love. You'll get answers. Be persistent. It's a two-way relationship and life-long journey. Stop looking outside of yourself at the world for answers. Most don't know a thing.

      4. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        cooldad, Arguing is all many of the atheist do in the religious forums. They appear to be pretty miserable attacking the believer's faith.

        1. ipodcaster profile image60
          ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It's wonderful that an atheist would start such a post. Maybe he was lead by the Spirit within to do so. smile

    2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I love your post Beth. smile

      1. cooldad profile image60
        cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Beth, I appreciate it.  You may be right about atheists arguing, but I'm not like that.  I always try to question, question everything instead of arguing.  I think a lot of times, religious people are put off when atheists question their beliefs, especially beliefs that are based on faith and not facts.  I try to be as open minded as possible about all aspects of life.  Unfortunately, in my personal experiences, most religious people are not open minded in any sense of the term.  That frustrates me.  I always like to ask religious people one question, "What if you are wrong?"

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I ask myself that too cooldad.

          Because I accept that I dont know everything ,but I stand firm on the things I do understand about Gods word.

          1. cooldad profile image60
            cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm guessing you rely on faith to make up for the unknown and for what can't be explained?  That's another concept I have trouble understanding.

            1. Ladybird33 profile image72
              Ladybird33posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What do you believe in?

              1. cooldad profile image60
                cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm an atheist and don't believe in any god or gods.  I struggled for many years and for me, atheism fits.  While I'm a non-believer, I'm always intrigued with its concepts and how people follow it.

            2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well if you have a friend who knows you by name, is loyal ,stands by you ,loves you unconditionally,answered your questions ,been unfaithful ,when you have been faithful,slow to anger-then its easy to feel accepted ,worthy, unique and most of all trust them tell them to lead me in truth.

              I know everyone doesnt agree with me ,Im just sharing my realationship with Christ and why I can trust him with my life.

        2. ipodcaster profile image60
          ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          They ARE wrong to judge you and argue. It points to the fact that they do not understand what it means to seek and embrace God. It seems that many are brainwashed because of early training. They have little to stand on. If they truly sought God, they would love your inquiry and contribute appropriately. I thank you. It helps me to clarify within my own mind where I am in my relationship with Spirit. I have peppered this post with replies. I invite you to read them. Many blessings to you!

    3. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      __________

      It is not a sin

  12. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    livelonger ;    The Jehovah's Witnesses go a bit further and restrict it to 144,000 total people (of which I'm sure none are gay).

       Scripture says that there are 144,000 who are redeamed from among the living, being the  FIRST  fruits unto the Lord.
    They are said to have lived sinless lives and are worthy to be given authority over all others who receives redemption or salvation.

  13. TMMason profile image74
    TMMasonposted 5 years ago

    There will be no, homosexuality, in heaven.

    I would believe each individual man and women will have to stand and account for their choices. But in the end... there will be no homosexuality in heaven.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree ...  There will be no homosexual actavity in heaven.

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That reminds me of a philosophical debate that I once had regarding Utopian societies.  They are, technically impossible.

      I have the same question about heaven... who's heaven?  Mine or yours?  Since my idea of heaven and your idea of heaven are certainly not going to be the same, how does God reconcile that?  Are there different "neighborhoods" in heaven?  Because honestly, I don't think of eternal bliss as being cooped up on a cloud with preachy overbearing zealots.  Half of the fundamentalists that I have met I wouldn't want to have a meal with... let alone spend eternity with...

      Now I've never met a Gay man without a hell of a sense of humor, good taste in music, and great conversation skills.  I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never met one. 


      So if heaven is YOUR heaven... why the hell would I want to go to it?  What's my motivation?

      1. TMMason profile image74
        TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well for one none of us are going to "Heaven". Simply isn't going to happen like that. Who will be allowed to live life eternal with God on earth? Those who sincerely try and are repentant for any sins they may have committed, those who have tried live a good life etc...

        As I said the individual will be judged on his or her own choices. but you have to try... try...try... get it? Try.

        So agian... that behaviour will not be tolerated where you I and many who do believe want to go. It simply isn't.

        Sorry. But God over-rules you and all the others.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wow, thank you for not answering my question at all.

          Seriously, I LOVE horses... will there be horses in the "afterlife?"  What about those who are allergic to horses or have a general dislike for the animals?

          Do I have to spend eternity without them or do the other christians have to tolerate them?  And I LOVES me some Elton John.  I listen to him almost everyday.  I don't want to spend eternity without ever hearing "Daniel"... So you think God will let him in for a concert every now and then?  If he promises not to be gay while he sings?  Or do I have to listen to harp music... cause I'm here to tell you I can't stand harp music...

          The point is, If I love something... like say a gay relative or artist... how is it going to be heaven if I am forced to spend eternity with that love being denied... Or is God going to take that love away so I'll be okay with it?  Cause honestly that's some pretty serious fine print...  I didn't think the big guy was the kind to destroy love...

          If "eternity" is what you think it will be... Once again, what does it hold for me.  I'd be miserable having to be held to your standards.

          1. TMMason profile image74
            TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It's all a joike to you, not to God.

            And to answer your question, I simply do not know what he will do about that sorrow you feel for your loved ones or friends who lost themselves to this world and could not do as required.

            I would think maybe another chance to see if they could do it without being a homosexual? Maybe during the Milennial, while all the others, people who never had the chance to know Christ and such, are trying their turn at it? Maybe on another world in another life?  Maybe? I dunno. Anything is possible for God, you read that part, right?

            But. I feel your pain. I have good friends and family members who will not be there either.

            But that is the way it is.

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, the joke is on ALL believers. They have fooled themselves or deceived themselves, into believing that the book that they read is completely and utterly, unmanipulated.

              ALL religious text was manipulated by the authors and/or others, long before the text was ever translated.

              Thus, making this entire thread absurd.

              1. cooldad profile image60
                cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I enjoy listening to people who believe in the same thing, but come up with several different interpretations of a simple question.  Yet another reason why religion is comical to me.  People squirm in their seats, because most christians are terrified of gay people.  Amazing

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I guess that is your perspective.

                  Gay people dont terrify me,lol.

                  1. cooldad profile image60
                    cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm happy you don't feel that way, but many of them do.  I don't think that point is even arguable.   But then again, there are a lot of christians who don't like black people too, go figure.

            2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No really, my faith is very serious to me, I just seem to get different things from my belief in Christ than you do. 

              My God is a kind benevolent figure that values love above all else.  My Savior is the one that died on a cross loving the thief beside him.  My Jesus would be far more concerned about kindness and  charity than who someone chose to spend their life with.

              My God would rather let a gay man with a kind heart through the gates than someone who followed the rules exactly but had a cold heart full of hatred.

              I'm not sure who your God is sometimes, but he's not the one I've dedicated my life to.  If you are right about a lot of things that you and the others think, then I fear he's not the kind of God that I wish to worship.

              I am harder on you than the non-believers because YOU are saying things about my religion that I don't believe are true.  And you are supposedly doing it from a position of knowledge.  You are representing MY faith in a way that would make me ashamed of it if I thought you were right. 

              I have to accept you as a brother in faith, much like I have to accept the millions of others that I don't agree with because we share a belief in the same savior.  I don't, however, have to let you speak for me-or even a majority-of Christians.

              And, according to my "liberal socialist" version of Christianity, I'm not scared to say that there will most likely be a great more homosexuals in heaven than fundamentalists.

              1. TMMason profile image74
                TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You know, Mellissa, you just do not seem to get it. You're an extremist.

                I have stated clearly that there may indeeed be a homosexual who gains a pass, there may be some who have earned their way, but it won't be the ones who think they can just continue on in that sin, and not correct themselves. And there will not be Homosexuality in that place, that is just wrong for you to even propagate. Shame on you.

                Christ did not die on the cross, so that you, I, or anyone else, could just get a free pass. It still requires actions to be put to faith and repentance. To think you can live in a state of continuous sin, and not worry about it, is against all the Bible teaches.

                And yes, God is Benovelance, Mercy, Love and Redemption.

                He is not about ignoring your sins and carrying on though... living as though it does not matter... -oh well Christ died for us, I get a pass-.

                Not at all, Mellissa.

                And you do anyone you express that sentiment to a great dis-service.

                As to you being hard on me, harder than the Atheists?

                You all are too funny. Most of you have no clue... and the rest babble talking points as though they are facts. You all give yourselves way too much credit.

                And no, I do not speak for you as a Christian. I speak for no Man or Woman, that is not my job.

                I will though, speak up firmly when you think you can water the truth down, distort it so you, or your friends, won't think so bad about it, or yourselves. Or so you can be loved by this world for your PC Liberal BS interrpretations.

                You do not get to do that.

                Christ said over and over... "Your sins are forgiven you, now go your way and sin no more. That is pretty self explainatory. And it doesn't mean go on your way and have it... I got it for you... here is your free pass.

                Not in the least.

              2. 0
                Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have to agree with Melissa's interpretation of the character of Jesus.  When I was a Christian, I read the New Testament much more than the Old, because the ideology was so different.  The Old Testament told of an angry hating God, who ordered the smashing out of babies brains onto rocks.  I could never be attracted to such a God.  Jesus, on-the-other-hand came across to me as loving and peaceful.  However, as I have said before, based on what Christians have told me, both online, and in real life, that this view of Christ is not widely shared.  It is for this reason, that so many Christians are angry in the name of Christ.  Personally, I would recommend the peaceful loving Christ, rather than the angry one.

  14. Editor and Chief profile image59
    Editor and Chiefposted 5 years ago

    I died and came back to life, so I have the first hand experience. There is actually a gay heaven and a straight heaven.

  15. Annie67 profile image60
    Annie67posted 5 years ago

    I myself, believe that who you are not what you are is the true answer.  I believe in God and he is my creator.  That being said, I am gay and know in my heart and soul that I was created and put here for more than just being gay.  I will meet my maker and smile proudly for who I am.

  16. must65gt profile image78
    must65gtposted 5 years ago

    God refers to Homosexuality as "An abomination" and something he can not condone. But the bible also speaks of compassion, love, acceptance and non judge-mentality. If It is an abomination as the bible states, then turning from it (even if it means abstinence from having any sort of relationship) would be a conviction that would require life changing decisions. The alternative would be separation from God for all eternity. That would be hell to suffer eternal solitude and darkness as depicted in God's word.

  17. W. Joe B. profile image83
    W. Joe B.posted 5 years ago

    Cooldad:  one thing that Christianity teaches (tho it seems a majority of those proclaiming themselves Christians don't seem to get it) is that God loves all of His children.  He teaches us that, although we might not condone an activity in our convictions, we must not transfer that to the individual.

    I'm an Ordained Minister who has several homosexual friends.  They all know I don't agree with the lifestyle, but also know i will not judge them for it.  That's not my job.  My job is to love them and live a life before them based on my convictions.  One of my primary convictions is to follow the "second greatest commandment" according to the Christ, ergo: Love thy neighbor as thyself.

    God is a loving God who offers grace to all His children.  Contrary to popular belief, neither does He send anyone to hell.  The Bible tells us that He wishes "none to perish."  But, we send ourselves to hell by refusing His grace and forgiveness.  That same Bible tells us we cannot be forgiven if we do not forgive.  Sure are a lot of "Christians" gonna bust the gates wide open over that one....

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks W.JoeB., I was wondering how long it would take to hear, "love thy neighbor."  Unfortunately, I think you may be in the minority with your view on homosexuality.  There are many, many churches and ministers who condemn them.  Amazing how twisted a religion has become that was supposed to love everyone.  I'm glad you take the position you do, because it makes more sense from a human compassion standpoint.  If your interpretation is correct, you are right, there will be a lot of surprised Christians who wake up in hell one day.  Thanks for stopping by and contributing.

      1. odonnelb profile image60
        odonnelbposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          @cooldad.

          God said to love everyone ,so thats what I try to do.
          I leave the judging up to Him.

          If anyone asks on this forum ,what or why does God etc etc, I offer up my understanding on it.

    2. RavenBiker profile image60
      RavenBikerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      W.JoeB, you just have judged "homosexuals" by saying its a "lifestyle." 

      Lifestyle means how you live and where you live.  Is it a house or an apartment.  Is it filet mignon or hamburger.  Kardashians or the family on "Married With Children." 

      "Homosexuality" is an innate characteristic such as an ability to play the piano or have a "green thumb or a nack for numbers.  Not everyone is the same nor should they be.  I know some gays to be sluts as well as virtuous just the same as I've seen Christians. 

      Please, PLEASE don't call it a lifestyle. Being a minister is a LIFESTYLE and not where you place or don't place your penis.

  18. W. Joe B. profile image83
    W. Joe B.posted 5 years ago

    BTW...all of you haggling over the number 144,00 need to peek at my hub on the subject.

  19. Editor and Chief profile image59
    Editor and Chiefposted 5 years ago

    I was raised as a Catholic and have read the entire Bible, but I am not a Christian. When I hear these folks talking about Gays going to hell, and God said this, or God said that. And you have to pick up poisonous serpents...It seems pretty crazy to me. If two people do something together in the house down the street, and come out the next day happy and contented. What business is it of mine, or yours. They both agreed. They did no harm to themselves or to anybody else. I may not like what you do in the privacy of your home, but I have enough decency to keep my nose out of other people's business. Liberty is still a radical concept with some people.

  20. vtwilli profile image80
    vtwilliposted 5 years ago

    144,000 isnt that a jehovah's witnessness' credo?
    Homosexuals just like any other sinner will burn in the lake of fire. I actually just posted Part One of my "Faith and Homosexuality" article on my page. I believe that any homosexual that wants salvation can have it if they are willing to change the lifestyle. I do not believe that a homosexual will enter heaven if they hold on to their lifestyle. It doesnt matter how active they are in church or community. We are not judged by our deeds.

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      A believing non sinner are we?

      Or are you getting your asbestos suit on? lol

    2. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      @ Vtwilli -Jesus died for our sins, what gives you the right to judge? and to say who can go into heaven and who can not? are you better than Jesus?

      He died for my right to be homosexual, just as yours to be heterosexual if you believe that my way is a sin. and also this business with salvation, I would sooner go to hell than sit in realm of hypocritical extremists.

      Jesus was a Jew not a Christian so how do you work that one out?

  21. theirishobserver. profile image60
    theirishobserver.posted 5 years ago

    I would imagine they would have a better chance of heaven than all then good Christian Churchs who have facilitated the rape of Children.

    Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs is facing a possible life sentence after being convicted of child sexual assault.

    The case stemmed from two young followers he took as brides in what his church calls “spiritual marriages”.

    The head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stood stone-faced as the verdict was read out in the San Angelo, Texas, court.

    Jeffs, who acted as his own lawyer, stood mostly mute for his closing argument, staring at the floor, for all but a few seconds of the half hour he was allotted. At one point he mumbled “I am at peace” and said no more.

    Jeffs, 55, had claimed his religious rights were being trampled on and that God would seek revenge if the trial continued. He now faces up to life in prison.

    The sentencing phase of the trial began after the verdict was announced, and Texas’ attorney general said it could take three days.

    Prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year-old girl and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old. They also played audio recordings in which Jeffs was heard instructing young women on how to please him sexually.

    The cult, which has at least 10,000 members, is a radical offshoot of mainstream Mormonism and believes polygamy brings exaltation in heaven. They see Jeffs as God’s spokesman on earth.

    Police raided the group’s remote West Texas ranch in April 2008, finding women dressed in frontier-style dresses and hairdos from the 19th century as well as seeing underage girls who were clearly pregnant.

    The call to an abuse hotline that sparked the raid turned out to be a hoax and more than 400 children who had been placed in protective custody were eventually returned to their families.

    But authorities brought charges against several men from the group, with Jeffs by far the highest-profile defendant.

    As the sentencing began, prosecutors told jurors they would present evidence that Jeffs had 78 wives, in addition to his legal spouse, and that 24 of them were under 17.

    Lead prosecutor Eric Nichols also said he would show that Jeffs either witnessed or performed hundreds of polygamist marriages, including 67 marriages involving underage girls.

    Jeffs stood up and made several incoherent objections to what was being said.

    “I object to anything pertaining to a religious manner,” he said at one point. “A constitutional guarantee involving things sacred must be invoked.”

    Prosecutors have relied heavily on information seized from the compound, which is in the town of Eldorado, 45 miles south of San Angelo, and features a four-storey temple of white limestone. Much of the material was discovered in a vault at the end of a secret passageway in the temple and another vault in an annexe building.

    “You might have asked yourselves,” Mr Nichols told jurors during closing arguments, “a lot of people may ask, why would someone record sex? ... This individual considers himself to be the prophet. Everything he did, hour after hour, he was required to keep a record of that.”

    On one of the tapes played at the trial, Jeffs made a reference to “drawing close” or “being close”, which authorities said was how church members referred to sex. Two female voices said: “OK.”

    “A good wife is trained for her husband and follows the spirit of peace,” Jeffs was heard saying.

    Another audio tape included Jeffs and the younger girl from a recording made in August 2006 at the Texas compound, according to evidence from Nick Hanna, a Texas Ranger involved in the 2008 raid.

    Played in court, it was difficult to decipher, but Jeffs and a female voice are heard. He says: “I perform this service in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen” then mentions the alleged victim by name. When she says something, he responds: “Don’t talk while praying.” Several minutes of heavy breathing followed.

    Jeffs represented himself after sacking seven lawyers in the six months leading to the trial. He broke his courtroom silence with an objection marked by a nearly hour-long speech defending polygamy and twice threatened the judge and the court with warnings of punishment from God.

    He refused to cross-examine the state’s witnesses and delayed giving an opening statement until he began presenting his own defence.

    Eleven other FLDS men were charged with crimes including sexual assault and bigamy. All seven of those who have been prosecuted were convicted, receiving prison sentences of between six and 75 years.

  22. estherluzfranco profile image79
    estherluzfrancoposted 5 years ago

    If homosexuals do what an adulterer would do, then they are no different with those adulterers. I see nothing is wrong with the homosexuals. It is a fact nowadays that because of the rise of estrogen and progesterone in a person's body, they tend to feel like another type of gender. This is due to the food that a lot of people are now eating these days. there is nothing really wrong with being homosexual. But just try to remember never to get loose of yourself. it is with the actions of a certain person where he/she makes sinful ways. but if these people would try to watch out what they are doing and not engage into such sins like adultery, murder or others, then, there is no big deal of being a homosexual.

    if you would ask if they can be forgiven, as for me, of course they can be forgiven. I believe in God myself and I do not judge people because they are different. and true Christian believers would also do the same.
    for me, we don't have the rights to condemn or even to judge other people because of how they act. instead, we guide them in doing what is right and help them in correcting their wrong doings.

    1. RavenBiker profile image60
      RavenBikerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There's a HUGE difference between sexuality and gender.

  23. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    After reading this thread ...   A thought jumped into my head and I'm going to write it down before giving it any thought (As Usual)

      What IF  ...   We as spirits, didn't choose to be born into this physical world at all. What IF we were misbehaving in heaven and as punishment and for rehabilitation we were sent here.

       Many people have said that we are here cause ...  We have a lesson to learn.
       I don't want to learn  "NO STINKING"  lessons through hardship !!!

       Does anyone ????    Maybe there is only one lesson we must all learn …  What hypocrisy looks like from the recieving end!

         Like I said,  just a thought,  I’m still half asleep,” haddn’t” had my coffee, or given this any thought. And I don’t believe it!       Maybe.

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's a good thought.  "What if's" make the world go around.  That would be interesting.  We could be in the Matrix too, who knows.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        In some sense of the word? 


            I'd bet on it!

  24. Jakob Dailes profile image60
    Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago

    The Bible says that no sin is any worse than another. So, of course, homosexuals will be forgiven (but they'll have to stop being homosexual, they can't just ask for forgiveness and think that that's their free-card to go on sinning but still go to Heaven).

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So are you saying that as long as they "pray the gay away", they can get into heaven?  Hypothetically, say a homosexual denounces his/her gaydom and makes it into heaven.  Then after a few boring weeks up there, they decide to pull out the disco clothes, re-decorate and start gaying it up again.  How would God handle that?  Can you get kicked out of heaven?

      1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
        Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You don't get kicked out of Heaven since there's no sin, and thus no sinners. Homosexuality is a sin. Do the math. Sure, a non-dead Christian can become gay, but that means sinning, so they'd need to stop and ask forgiveness.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image94
          Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ask Satan if it's possible to get kicked out of heaven.  and if there is no sin there, who tempted Satan?

          1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
            Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So we're talking about angels when we're talking about humans, Randy? Satan was an angel, not a human, and we're talking about humans, so please don't change the subject.

            1. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So you contend god doesn't kick out human souls, but he does boot angels created perfect from heaven?  Strange how a perfect creation of god was flawed enough to be tempted by sin god also created.  Who tempted and broke through god's perfect creation, if not god himself?  Otherwise it seems something more powerful than your god managed to corrupt Satan's perfection.

              Glad to hear your explanation.  smile

              1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
                Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Angels were perfect as in sin-less. They could still want to do wrong. Satan decided himself. Satan doesn't possess you to make you do evil, some of it is your fault. Thus, Satan could have become evil all on his own.

                1. getitrite profile image78
                  getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this



                  So could you explain how this could have happened, in detail?

                2. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It say in your bible Satan was made perfect by your god.  Perfect means, without flaws.  Unless you can explain how your god created a flawless entity but the being was corrupted by_____(fill in the blank) then perfection means something entirely different than it seems. 

                  Where did Satan's temptation to rebel against the creator originate?  This seems to mean god cannot create lasting perfection unless he himself did the tempting. But are free to give your take on your god's ability.

                3. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Makes absolutely no sense at all, Jakob.  What part of perfection do you not understand?  Is god's perfection faulty or not?

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    the satan doctrine has so many holes in it one would have to think it catholic

              2. odonnelb profile image60
                odonnelbposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The difference between angels and humans (as far as this line of thought goes), is that we both have free will, but ONLY humans have salvation.  In otherwords, when Lucifer fell and took 1/3 of Heavens angels with him, he can't repent and be saved.  We on the other hand can.  That is why when we get to Heaven we will be singing a song that the angels can't sing, because they don't know salvation.

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes,I remember hearing about that !! smile

                  How cool is that.

  25. ershruti304 profile image61
    ershruti304posted 5 years ago

    I don't feel that being a homosexual is any barrier or pass to heaven. No one wants to be bad so is with homosexual. It is just some problem in hormones that forces them to be so. I guess if they haven't committed any sin in their life they have full right to be in heaven. Things written in bible are usually misinterpreted.

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      So homosexuality is a hormone problem of some sort?  Wow, I've never heard that one before.

      1. 0
        Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There once was the belief that gay men had more female hormones than straight men do, however this had been shown not to be the case.  Where hormones do seem to play a part, is during pregnancy, where the developing boy receives too many female hormones, which changes the development of the brain.  Scientists have examined the brain of gay men and straight ones, and can easily identify which is which, without knowing beforehand.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd7oaaY … re=related

      2. ershruti304 profile image61
        ershruti304posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes it is and science has proved the fact

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Can you provide a link to that proof? because there are other websites who say there is no scientific evidence.

        2. 0
          Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It is an old belief that being gay is a hormone problem, however, repeated tests have shown that gay men's hormone levels are no different to those of straight men.  However, where hormones do seem to play a part, is whilst the male child is developing in the womb.  It is a statistical fact that the more boys a woman has, the chance increases with each boy born that he will be gay.  If therefore a woman has five boys, the second boy has a higher chance of being gay than the first, and the third more of a chance than the second etc.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd7oaaY … re=related

        3. RavenBiker profile image60
          RavenBikerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I want citations.  I just hate when people spout "facts" and never cite. IRKS me!  Anyhow, hormone problems cause acne, it doesn't "create" a homosexual.  There are things about human being s that is inate in their character like talents, abilities and understanding that is not common.

    2. RavenBiker profile image60
      RavenBikerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      HORMONES! oh, dear.  First a choice, then a lifestyle now hormones? 

      Wow.  We're really stretching this forum!!  LOL

  26. Rafini profile image82
    Rafiniposted 5 years ago

    I don't know - have they broken any of the Ten Commandments?  (since, technically, homosexuality isn't going against the Ten Commandments)  Will homosexuals ask for forgiveness of any Commandment they broke? 

    Then again, there are some people who believe ALL people will go to Heaven...

  27. Randy Godwin profile image94
    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago

    Hmmmm. I see not many posters want to weigh in on the gluttony sin.  If a christian continues to eat more food than their body requires they, are ignoring their own sins as being trivial while focusing on the shortcomings of others as being worse.  What's the excuse believers?  smile

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Lol, I hope you are not assuming I am obese. smile I agree gluttony is a sin. I don't glut down more food than the body requires.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You also don't weigh in on my question. I assume nothing about you other than your disillusion concerning the veracity of the novel.  So, how many sermons have you heard where the pastor really gets on the gluttons in the congregation for eating too much?

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The word of God states gluttony is a sin. It doesn't matter how many sermons I have heard about it. Disillusion is your opinion. I will not type back and forth answering your ridiculous questions.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image94
            Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It doesn't matter to whom?  I actually didn't expect you answer my question truthfully.  You're a christian.  Why do you resist answering this particular question which YOU judge (or perhaps you prefer the word discern) ridiculous?  Unless of course, it hits too close to home.  Ever hit the all-you-can-eat buffet on Sunday after church, Woc?  lollollol

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Lol, you sure are having a lot of fun ridiculing me. How very childish and immature. Don't get irritated with me because I choose not to answer your questions. It's more fun to me to allow you to wonder. smile Have a good day Randy.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How is asking questions ridicule, WOC?  I've not accused you of anything.  But your refusal to answer my questions tells me all I need to know.  You would not be afraid to answer unless you didn't like the answer you would truthfully have to give, is the only reason I can see for your response.

                But feel free to enlighten me if I'm mistaken.  Unlike you, I will not judge/discern your questions as ridiculous simply because I dislike them.  But then, I'm not a believer.  smile

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You know exactly what I am referring to . Please don't play dumb. "Ever hit the all-you-can-eat buffet after church on Sunday, WOC?'  I am aware of sneaky mockery games when I see them. Why ask this question when I have previously told you I don't overeat? I have no reason to lie. It's not polite to stereotype. You say that christians do not speak the truth on the sly. I think you now know my reason for not answering all your questions. Fear is not the reason. Thanks for twisting things as usual. I'm not mad at you. smile

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't accuse you of overeating, WOC.  I simply asked if you've ever been to a buffet after Sunday service.  This was merely a lead up to asking if you'd ever witnessed any obese brothers and sisters in Jesus ignoring the sin of gluttony.

                    And no, I have no idea why you refuse to answer my questions, especially if you've nothing to be afraid of.  I have no need to twist anything.  The truth is sufficient for me.

                    I'm not angry either.  I've grown up around fundamentalists and learned to not take them very seriously.  smile

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There is no excuse for hypocrisy,by the way its annoying to Christians too lol oops I will own that statement ,its annoying to me tongue

      Like: Take thine own doughnut out of thine own hand buddy,before you attempt to take the shortcomings out of mine lol

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Kiwi, Agreed. smile

      2. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hypocrisy is okay as long as no one mentions it to the hypocrite. smile

        "Go forth and attend the buffets no more".  Yeah right, attend any local Sunday buffet and see how many of "god's chosen" are keeping the day holy.  What a joke.  lol

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Mention, challenge it,just dont call me chubby lol

          (Im not)

          1. Randy Godwin profile image94
            Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            In today's world, being referred to as "chubby" is often preferable to the real description of some folk.  smile

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              In y family ,they used a quaint phrase of "Youre looking well" loosely translated" Hmm..Aunt Celia is packing on the pounds"..

              Randy in all seriousness,over eating is a sin,a sin to the body,and Churches have an obligation to discourage it just as much as other sins...that potentially harm individuals or hurt families..

              But all things to be done in the spirit of truth and love for the edification of each other.

              I have no problem obeying any law if its to protect and help me.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, but do the churches actually actively discourage gluttony?  apparently not as we have more "chubby folks here than ever before.  Even young children are not prohibited from overeating by many churches, or at least from the pulpit.  Especially if the pastor is obviously guilty of the sin himself.  smile

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Really couldnt guess the stats on that one.To be honest obesity is across the board though irrespective of nationality ,status or religion.

                  To be fair though ,accepting Christ as your saviour doesnt mean 'instant transformation' a changed heart is just that -changing day by day (hopefully). Every individual is unique and so too is their growth.

                  That doesnt mean I am naive and accept every preacher as being God in the flesh ,nope,no sir...If the apple tree aint growing apples, I move on wink

                  On a serious note:

                  My heart longs for many more older women to show and teach younger women how to be better mothers-for men to be shown how to be good husbands
                  For children to serve their elders etc..

                  People care I know ,but collectively Im not so sure anymore.

                  1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                    Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well stated Kiwi. big_smile

    3. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      age and metabolism
      or are you judging obese people to be gluttonous?

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Are you suggesting obesity comes from thin air, BO?  Or overeating?

        Is gluttony a sin in the KJV, or not? lol

  28. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    Hey Randy

    A fat ,dope smoking ,cheating whoremonger calling himself/herself a Christian,doesnt mean God doesnt exist wink anymore than a person wearing a white coat calls himself a Doctor. Do we quit going to reputable Doctors because quacks claim to cure cancer? smile

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes  exactly ... kinda like someone burning the BBQ  doesn't mean that cows don't eat corn.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Huh?
        Psst Im a Kiwi, you will have to give me the Pacific version lol

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ops   
          Think I was trying to be funny


             Was just agreeing with YA ..   Some people take a point of fact and attempt to apply it to something that it does not apply

    2. Randy Godwin profile image94
      Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      But how does one tell if a preacher is reputable?  There is no way to question the souls he helped save after they're dead?  Not so for doctors who lose many patients or have been convicted of malpractice.

      Some even still believe Jimmy Swaggart is a man of god.  smile

  29. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Eaglekiwi wrote:
    Yea ,but apparently the J'W'S had to change this creed,since they found the departed saints were going to exceed those numbers.

    Emile R     Hmm..

    I hadn't heard that. That's funny, but new revelations will be given to them and it'll clarify the prophesy. They are never wrong.


    =  === - = -

    Me

        what is written is that the 144,000  will be the first, Not the only.  They will have been "Perfect"  therefore being judges and such.

        BUT   everybody wants to be Chiefs and no body wants to be little indians.

        Who are the judges going to judge if everybody is judges?

  30. Emveme7 profile image59
    Emveme7posted 5 years ago

    Although I won't gain many friends by this but God does not make mistakes. You are who you are, it's not a choice. God already knows the path of each of us and I believe the Bible is so homophobic because of the scribes of that time. An adulterer is also different than a gay person. It's not about sexual preference but  breaking trust and vows that causes another innocent person pain of betrayal.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Welcome to Hubpages, and I think its cool to express different views.

      I dont hate ya ,I love ya !

  31. Kimberly Tyon profile image61
    Kimberly Tyonposted 5 years ago

    It doesn't matter if your gay God still loves you no matter what the only way to get to heaven is believing in God

    1. Jakob Dailes profile image60
      Jakob Dailesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Don't you think he wants you to obey his laws, though... that's kinda why the Bible keeps talkin about "we deserve to die because of our sins" and "we need God's forgiveness", etc. God loves everyone in Hell, but he has to punish them for their crimes (which is why he sends them to Hell).

  32. itsameanoldscene profile image59
    itsameanoldsceneposted 5 years ago

    When we all die..that is it, we cease to exist - its over

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Right on, that's exactly what I think.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ..But what if your'e wrong.?..

        See,if I'm wrong about there being an afterlife,then Ive still had a good life.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image94
          Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Only if you haven't been worshiping the wrong god.  smile

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            But my odds are still going to be better than if I had accepted 'No-one" wink


            http://s4.hubimg.com/u/5354563_f248.jpg



            Isnt this pic so cool!!!

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              *smiles* I think I have had this argument before smile Now he's going to say "unless you angered the real god more by worshiping a fake god than by not worshiping any god.

              Hi Kiwi, how you doing?

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Doin great thanks Melissa smile

                I enjoy the rappore of certain hubbers when they are courteous,Randy is indeed one of them.

                If he gets outta line,I know how to side step hisssss lil buddy too lol

            2. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You have to know how many millions of gods there are first.  Ah, so using your logic, it's safer to worship dozens of gods to increase the odds, EK. smile

              Thanks for the tip!  lol


              Oh the pic.  Let me guess...Eagle Knievel?

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No you dont have to know every god,just your own heart wink

                (Actually God is the one who calls you...) but thats probably another topic.


                Oh you know the pic?...I just came across it some place.

                Love the eagle and the colours are so vibrant.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                  Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  But you were talkin' odds and.....well, never mind.  I forget you guys are hanging upside down all of the time.  smile



                  No, I don't know the picture.  I was making a joke about Evel Knievel.  You know, the motorcycle stuntman who wore the American flag leather suit similar to the eagle in your pic.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    How is the air up there ?

                    Hey upside down and STILL in your future ...wink lol

                    http://s4.hubimg.com/u/5356023_f248.jpg

  33. 0
    Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago

    I think maybe gay people go to a different heaven than the straights.  In gay heaven, it is even more fabulous and colourful, with diamante-covered wings, and fit angels, who work out, and where there is a selection of Cher, Doris Day and Judy Garland records played on God's gramophone. I think the straights go to a heaven where they listen to George Bush or Margaret Thatcher speeches, and everyone wears sensible shoes and has a side parting, and where the grass has "no walking" signs.  The lesbians probably go to a heaven where they wear chunky shoes and gingham, and where there is an endless supply of shelves to put up, with everyone having their own tool kit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-ZBwngC … 5958FC8C5A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnLf7ghM-6E

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      George Bush??? Ohhhhhh I thought it was George Clooney

      And I think ya put the Iron lady in the wrong heaven.

      p.s Please swap the Georges,before I get there smile

      1. 0
        Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh that would be a shame, because I had hoped George Clooney might have considered coming to the gay heaven, or at least divided his time between the two.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Are women allowed at all in the gay man's heaven?  I'm a bit of a f**hag myself and i have no idea who I would take with me when clubbing to keep the sleezy 60 year old men with failing eyesight away from me...

          1. 0
            Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The advantage of the 60 year old men with failing eyesight, is that you can make off with their wallet before they even notice.  Faghags would be welcome, as long as they are fabulous, but not in a way that outshines the queens.

          2. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So who would Ya be looking for ?  30 year old men with ailing eye sight?   

               Just kidding.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'd be looking to drink my drink in peace... As I am so happily married that I'm damn near giddy about it smile  And I am fabulous smile

  34. naararocks profile image60
    naararocksposted 5 years ago

    Most people think that God hates homosexual people. But why would a creator hate His creation

    God DOES hate the SIN though. Because sin in turn leads to death

    Romans 6:23"
    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    Jesus died and went to hell for three days, so we wouldnt have to! So God doesnt want us going to hell for something Jesus already went for. GOD LOVES GAY PEOPLE. He HATES the sin, because sin is evil and has destroyed what the original plan of God for marriage which is in between ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN.

    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."-1 John 1:9


    God will forgive you and deliver you if you ask for it! Youre not "born" gay. Thats a lie from hell. Its a demon that you need to be delivered from. Pray and repent and ask for deliverence. Gods love is big enough to change you and put you on the one and right. Jesus is the right path!
    John 14:6:"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

    His love is bigger! John 3:16! =]

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi naararocks, Amen. smile

    2. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Life too oddly leads to death.

  35. 60
    MaitresseMadposted 5 years ago

    I would consider myself a Christian, and was quite active in the church for most of my life, I have since chosen to step away because I beleive that each of us has our own individual relationship with God. I will say that from what I have read in the bible all sin is seen the same in God's eyes, this is a strict break from the philosophy that each sinner is accorded a place in "hell" with regards to his/her sins. Do I think that homosexuals are more damned than an adulterer? No, biblically all sinners receive the same punishment.

    Just to clarify, I do not think homosexuality is a sin, it is often lumped together with sodomy (which is traditionally defined as homosexual or unnatural sexual behavior) but you need to investigate the institutions which have defined them as such before you can accept such crude logic. In the book of Leviticus it is sinful for a woman to enter the house of God without covering her head - how many people still follow this law? Aren't they sinning as well?

    If you want to argue New Testament "Blood of Christ" then I would challenge anyone to quote me specifically where in the new testament men who lay with men or women who lay with women are condemned to be damned. Im pretty certain any individual who participates in sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage is considered a sinner, and all sinners are washed clean by the blood of christ - regardless of our sins.

  36. liftandsoar profile image80
    liftandsoarposted 5 years ago

    That's like asking "will sinners go to heaven or hell when they die?"   We are not condemned or saved by our brand of sin but by the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

  37. R W Harrington profile image60
    R W Harringtonposted 5 years ago

    This question and many of the answers are interesting to me because the presumption is that someone somewhere knows what God thinks.  We don't.  All we have is our own individual philosophies based on either our own or someone else's interpretation of the Bible.

    There are so many factors to consider when reading the Bible:  What period in history was any particular Book written, and what was going on in society at the time are just two of the considerations.  I am by no means a Bible scholar, but it is entirely conceivable to me that IF homosexual sex practices were condemned in the Bible, and I know there is some debate about that, it was sex for pleasure, not sex as an expression of love that could have been the target of the condemnation.  And yes, there is a difference. 

    I don't know God's mind, and I wouldn't presume to guess.  I WILL however share my personal opinion on this.

    I believe that we are all children of God, and as such we are each loved completely and individually by Her/Him.  How could I as a parent condemn my child to eternal torment because that child behaved consistent with their inborn sexual orientation?  I couldn't.  I would love my child regardless.  I would never take the attitude that this child is evil, or flawed or in some way responsible for their God-given orientation to love someone of the same sex.

    Now...If my child were to engage in sexual activity - homo or hetero purely to satisfy their own lust for pleasure and not as an expression of Love, I would be very disappointed in him/her, but I would not stop loving my child. 

    So to me then, the sin is pursuing sexual gratification for it's own sake.  Hell?   I don't believe in Hell.  I believe that if anything our spirit will make its own hell after death by forever regretting and feeling sorry for the "sins" we committed during life.

    Here's an interesting question:  What is sin?

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sin as defined by God ...or as defined by man?

      In reference to your above post ,you make some good points ,however you have also implied that God may have accidently or purposely created 'homosexuals as well as straight people'

      Did I understand you meant to say that in this paragrah,

      I believe that we are all children of God, and as such we are each loved completely and individually by Her/Him.  How could I as a parent condemn my child to eternal torment because that child behaved consistent with their inborn sexual orientation?

      Since the bible says .He knit us together in our mothers womb etc..

  38. cooldad profile image60
    cooldadposted 5 years ago

    RW-great comment and thanks for sharing that.  You bring up a very important argument with this topic, "God-given orientation".  A lot of religious people don't believe that.  Instead they believe being gay is a choice and they should change from being gay.  You bring a very interesting perspective to the discussion.  thanks

  39. calpol25 profile image75
    calpol25posted 5 years ago

    I am not familiar with American History as a rule but I know that Abraham Lincoln made a very famous quote that many of us in England and the world are united over....

    Those who deny freedom to others, shall deserve it not for themselves..

    He made that quote when he went to war against the south and wanted to abolish slavery. He believed that it was for the greater good, I think he was a religious man and would have probably condemned the persecution that homosexuals face today...

    And as a gay man I do not believe that god sees my lifestyle as a sin and that its fanatics, zealots and bigots who will be judged as sinful because they do not preach the word of god, only the word hatred and distorted views of the truth.

  40. NatalieD profile image60
    NatalieDposted 5 years ago

    Hi cooldad,

    You've gotten a lot of comments and I haven't read them all so hopefully I won't be repeating what someone else has already said.  But here's my take on your question.

    Seeing as your an atheist and I'm a Christian, we're obviously going to have different view points. So off the bat just know I'll be answering you in the most biblically accurate way that I can.

    First off, being a hetero or a homo is not the qualification for 'getting into Heaven.'  Faith in Jesus Christ alone is.  The bible says when you trust in Christ for salvation and become HIS, nothing and no one can snatch you from His hand (John 10:28 & Romans 8:38-39)---and that includes any sin or bent toward a certain sin.

    I do not have homosexual tendencies but I struggle with other sins. Regardless, those sins do not CANCEL Christ's love for me or the fact that I belong to Him.

    However, I think the tricky part of this subject is the fact that a homosexual LIFESTYLE is not only a sin but is (as the bible says) and abomination to the Lord (Leviticus 20:13 & Romans 1:26-27).

    So, when people question: Can a gay person get into Heaven?  The question isn't in reference to the fact that being gay is THE unpardonable sin, no, the question begs to be answered because a homosexual lifestyle is so opposed to the way God created people to be, how could someone possibly be accepted into Heaven?  And, therefore, the REAL QUESTION to be asked is: How can someone who claims to be saved (a Christian) lead a homosexual lifestyle (which is an abomination in God's eyes) and subsequently, get into heaven?

    Whether someone's a raging homosexual or a raging murderer or a raging adulterer, I, personally, do not believe that someone who has a personal relationship with Christ could CONTINUALLY lead a LIFESTYLE of sin---whatever sin that might be---without eventually being convicted of that sin (by the Holy Spirit) and then repenting and turning to God for forgiveness and restoration.  Proverbs 3:12 says that God disciplines those He loves.  If you're a child of God (a Christian by faith in Christ), you can stray off into sinful things but God will ALWAYS discipline you to get you back on track. 

    So, someone who is leading a sinful lifestyle and has no problem with it and no desire or intent to change, most likely does not know the Lord Jesus.  Because Jesus, like any good parent, corrects His kids when they get off track and gets them back on the path where they are living (and seeking to live) holy, righteous lives that line up with His Word.

    I am not the judge of men's hearts---that is God's job---but His Word does say that a tree is judged by it's fruit (Matthew 12:33-34)...what's inside your heart will overflow onto the outside.  If there's no Jesus on the outside of your life, is there Jesus on the inside of your life???

    I hope this sheds some light on things from a biblical perspective. God is all about the heart. Our sins don't define us but whether or not we know Christ DOES. And if you KNOW Christ, that will inevitably change you. So if you are an adulterer, a murderer, a homosexual, a thief, a liar, WHATEVER, if you know the love and mercy of Jesus Christ who died on the cross as a payment for sins, you won't stay that way long!!! He has a way of changing people:)  Hope this helps cooldad!

    Blessings to you!

    Natalie Mafima

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Natalie, I absolutely agree with your insightful post. God can see the heart of anyone who desire to change .

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I noticed you have a tendency to lump homosexual sin together with the sin of murder and theft. If you are also struggling with sin, but not homosexual sin, which of those other sins are you struggling with?

    3. Jesus-Saves profile image60
      Jesus-Savesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Amen Natalie. I agree with everything you said. It is 100% Biblical. Its nice to meet people who know the Bible. Keep on sharing the word.

  41. calpol25 profile image75
    calpol25posted 5 years ago

    Gay people can not change their lifestyle just as heterosexuals cant change theirs. Is it not also a sin to live a lie? because if every gay person was to change their lifestyle they would be lying and commiting a far greater sin.

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
      Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      calpol, I agree gay people and heterosexuals can't change their lifestyles, but God can. God can only do it if the person desire to change. One has to have a repentant heart and ask God to forgive them.

      1. getitrite profile image78
        getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And just why would gay people WANT to cahnge?

        Maybe they are perfectly happy with their lifestyles, and it is us good religious people who WANT them to change.

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
          Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Some of them want to change because they don't like being gay, and they don't  enjoy a lifestyle of sinning. I will disregard your last sentence.

          1. getitrite profile image78
            getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            My older brother is gay, and I don't perceive what he does as sinning, at all.

            If it is a sin, then why did GOD make my brother that way?

            Instead of punishing people, like my brother, your God should be explaining his nonsense.

            BTW, I knew you would disregard my last sentence, because it speaks the truth about religion. lol

            Imagine that.  A religion that hates the truth! yikes

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image60
              Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Nope, you got me wrong. hmm I'm not pulling my hair out for no one to change. How one chooses to live is their decision. I love the truth. You're the one who is afraid of it, so don't twist it around on me. God did not make your brother that way. Blaming God again? God also did not make anyone a thief, murderer, adulterer, etc. It's all about taking responsibility for one's own action.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I suppose it would follow that God doesn't make people bigoted and hard hearted. I guess we have Christianity to thank for that.

              2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Amen.


                On the flip side imagine a world where everyone did exactly what they wanted to too, anything , lets all be free,hell so long as it feels good and we are not hurting anyone ( so you think)...its my body ,its my partenar, its my kid, its my country ,its my world.

                Is it?



                Then one day we grew up and had kids of our own, and we began to ask some searching questions.....

              3. getitrite profile image78
                getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Drivel!



                No you don't.  If you did, you would not state the fraudulent and evasive comments that you post here.



                Yet I'm not the one speaking about an imaginary being that is unknowable.  Go figure that one out, will ya?



                This is the only true sentence that you have stated.  It is true that your God did not make my brother that way, simply, because your God is imaginary...and has made NOTHING!



                What God?



                Again, TRUE! Because God is imaginary, therefore incapable of making anything.  You do speak the truth, although not frequently.



                You really think I need YOU to tell me something as simple as that?  That's absurd.

                1. calpol25 profile image75
                  calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree with you here getitrite :-)

                2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You definately need someone to remind you how to be respectful and courteous wink

                  Good debating skills attack the topic ,not the person.

                  1. getitrite profile image78
                    getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Why did you feel the need to tell me this, and not Woman of Courage?

                    Did you not read her comment...ATTACKING my integrity, just for the sake of her false religious beliefs?

                    Of course, you only want to attack and subdue non-believers, while pretending that believers are being persecuted.

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I changed my lifestyle, because I wanted to please God, and because it was hurting me...

      But it was a choice thing,different habits, some new friends etc.

      And I had help ,I could not have done it on my own.

      Did it make me rich and famous -No

      Did it make me smarter -No

      Did it make me happier and stronger-Yes

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Could you change your sexual preference? It isn't the same as giving up beer, or quitting smoking. Imagine how it would feel to be young and told you could only sleep with women for the rest of your life. Could you work that through and be happy? I couldn't. It isn't natural for me.

        Gays can't help who they are naturally attracted to either.

        1. DzyMsLizzy profile image91
          DzyMsLizzyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly right!  Telling a "gay" to change who they are is akin to commanding a cat to become a dog or an elephant.  It simply cannot be done.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            But it has been done -and successfully.

            1. livelonger profile image89
              livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Those people who've "changed" are living a lie; there are more people who are ex-ex-gay than there are ex-gay for a reason.

              But if they want to suppress their natural orientation in order to appease homophobes, then that's their cross to bear. People pretending to be what they're not has been the norm for the last few centuries.

              1. calpol25 profile image75
                calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I certainly agree livelonger, :-) I would sooner burn in hell for damnation rather than deny who I am......Because you can not cheat yourself.

                1. livelonger profile image89
                  livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Fortunately for the both of us, hell and damnation don't really exist. smile

                  1. calpol25 profile image75
                    calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    True but still would love to go and visit for the day just so I could buy a tee shirt and rub it in at the extremists how great it is, and how boring heaven would be. lol lol

          2. billabongbob profile image80
            billabongbobposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I'm female but my best friend is a gay guy, and him Mother wants him to 'change'.  That would be like telling me I can't be a woman any more.  He is who he is and that is fixed not interchangeable if he 'feels like it'.
            He likes men, always has and always will, doesn't make him less of a man.  He still thinks and behaves like any other guy I know, but his partners are other men.  Both of us liking men gives us something else in common anyway lol.

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Lifestyle is a choice ...and yep I could.

          All depends on what you think natural is ,dont you think?

          If I believed I was 'born that way' ,then I assume  the choice would probably be more acceptable in society.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You say life style. Are you reading any posts by the people here who tell you they are homosexual? Are you calling all of them liers?

            I know you mean no harm, but you are doing it. I think you might believe you are showing your god that you love him by this constant refusal to live and let live. But it is coming across as something totally different. smile

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              On the contrary, Ive always said its a matter of choice.

              I too ,am free to make choices.

              @ Emile

              You do me a great disservice by speaking for other people!

              If I am going to call someone a liar, I will.

              But I havent

              So dont cause dissension by insinuating that I might be Emile
              There have been many times I have explained that I prefer to obey the commandment ..the greatest one actually ...to love
              everyone.

              Perhaps it would be more constructive to quote those things.


              I guess my biggest mistake is answering questions that some people ask ,when they obviously have their minds made up and just need a scapegoat to vent.

              Head games. roll

              And Emile now that you have expressed your opinion ,dont run away and hide.

              I dont bite lol

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm not trying to play head games. I'm simply reading your posts and taking them at face value.

                Edit, not sure what the don't run and hide comment means. Could you elaborate?

                1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sure.
                  You have assumed something about me to be incorrect. I haven't called anyone a liar.

                  And you speak for homosexuals? like how do you know what anyone else gets from my posts.

                  Many people appear to respond quite adequately where appropriate.

                  Glad you dont play head games,just that a couple of people do/have , then disappear until the dust settles.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No, I don't speak for homosexuals. But I read the posts of those who say they are. I would assume they know more about the issue than I do. You too, for that matter. They have repeatedly said it is not a choice. It is not a lifestyle. Anymore than being heterosexual is. To argue the point implies that you either don't believe them, or haven't read their posts.

                    Since you aren't homosexual, yet feel compelled to voice an opinion, I wonder why you would prefer that I not.

                    And as to head games and dust settling; I find your explanation less than honest. That appeared to be leveled directly at me, so I'm asking again for clarification.

        3. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          but we all seem to be forgetting

          with god all things are possible
          matt 19:26

      2. Woman Of Courage profile image60
        Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Same here Kiwi. smile I love to please God also. God will deliver and set people free.

  42. calpol25 profile image75
    calpol25posted 5 years ago

    The thing is though, how do we know that in gods eyes we are creating a sin? has anyone actually met the spirit? and asked him? please do not say its in the bible because the bible was written by man not god, and has been changed thousands of times....

  43. legitimo profile image61
    legitimoposted 5 years ago

    I am sitting here trying to figure what to say but you hit it right on the nose carpol25,Thanks You

    1. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you too legitimo :-)

  44. TJBaruch profile image84
    TJBaruchposted 5 years ago

    Sure homosexuals have a chance of going to heaven....just like anyone of us.  God doesn't like homosexual behavior just like he doesn't like murder, rape, theft, lies or any of man's sins.  But when his son, Jesus, hung on that tree he took the blame for every sin you have done, are doing or will ever do.  He willingly came under God's wrath for your sin and my sin and allowed himself to be brutally slain so that you and I could escape the death that he suffered for us.  All you and I or any homosexual has to do is accept his gift and believe in faith that he really did save us.  God, your Father, loves you.  He made a way for you to enjoy his company forever by asking his Son, Jesus to die in your place.  How do I know this to be true???   I kept asking God to show me who he was until he did.  Before, I didn't know the truth.  Now I do.  I've experienced it.

  45. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    Just a question ?

       Is it not written that it is AFTER our physical death that we are to be cleansed and given our white robes.

        And all of us are as filthy rags in comparison.

        So how is it that one filthy rag can say to another; " You are more filthy than I, so you are going to be thrown away while I will be cleansed"

        Saul was chosen (according to scripture) and cleansed while he was yet a murderer

  46. TJBaruch profile image84
    TJBaruchposted 5 years ago

    Father God loves you; he was thinking of you before you were even born...he "knit you together" in your mother's womb; he "has plans to give you hope and a future."  There is a destiny on your life if you choose to accept it.  He wants you to welcome you into his family and give you riches beyond price....   Peace beyond understanding.  ....  Well, I had my say.  May the God that you don't know show himself to you.  May he bless you and protect you, may he smile on you and be gracious to you.  May the he show you his favor and give you his peace.

  47. Khairul Alam07 profile image61
    Khairul Alam07posted 5 years ago

    Homosexuals can not be forgiven because if homosexuals is really need then why creator create man and woman.If u r wise person then u will easily understand that man and woman are created for each other.So i am sure that  homosexuals will  must  go to hell.

    1. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I would sooner go to hell for my beliefs than to live in an intolerant realm of hypocrites and judgemental extremists.

  48. Stump Parrish profile image61
    Stump Parrishposted 5 years ago

    I just love watching straight people explain everything about what it's like to be gay. Do they base this knowledge on talking with gays, or studying the history of homosexuality. No they base it on a book they may or may not have read. Even if they have read it, they figure a couple of passages written 2000 years ago contain more knowledge than all the research done thru out history. Of course they only pay attention to the parts that suit them . Treating others as they wish to be treated and not casting stone if they are sinners are ignored. Some of these people raren't happy uless they are looking down their noses at the rest of humanity, They use the bible as a guide book for selecting targets. Do you ever hear them stating anything positive about those who differ? hell no they need the feeling of superiority their religion gives them. Amen

    1. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I certainly agree with you there Stump.. They do not spread the word of god only that of snobbery and hatred... They then go onto to break a commandment by using their bible as a craven image...
      It IS RELIGIOUS HYPOCRACY..........

  49. Stump Parrish profile image61
    Stump Parrishposted 5 years ago

    Here's a question for the religious folks out there. If your jesus met a homosexual on the street, do you actually believe he would act like you and talk about them the way you do? I doubt it, this assine fear and hatred has nothing to do with your religion. It's a personal problem and I wish you all would stop blaming it on your god and jesus. At least take responsibility for your personal bigotry.

    1. calpol25 profile image75
      calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Fascism and Religion What is the difference? each one causes wars and each one seeks out weaker groups to persecute....

      1. DzyMsLizzy profile image91
        DzyMsLizzyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Amen, calpol25!

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well since Im trying to follow Gods word (as Jesus did) I would hope we would be both on the same page:)

      Love the sinner-hate the sin...wink

    3. habee profile image91
      habeeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. If more Christians tried to act like Jesus did, we'd all be a lot better off. Jesus said we should "Love one another." He didn't mean that we should love only those who are like us. He clarified this with the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

      I'm sorry if this offends some Christians, but too many times too many Christians are too busy hating and judging to have any time left for love and compassion. And yes, I'm a Christian. I'm also a human, so I sin. My sins are no less than the sins of others. I smoke, I overeat, I lust - so how can I judge others?

    4. cindi h profile image61
      cindi hposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You got that right Stump!! According to the bible is not incest a sin? Then how do my fellow Christians believe that we all came from Adam and Eve? Their children must have had incestuous relations in order for the population to grow.

      There is so much bigotry and hypocrisy within the Christian Churches. that is why I left many years ago. Some of the nastiest people I know purport to be 'Christians" and some of the nicest people I know are homosexuals.

    5. sonfollowers profile image94
      sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It's a little spooky but I actually agree with you, Stump.  Many of us in the Christian church spend way too much time attacking those who are not in the church.  We dog homosexuals in particular.  Many Christians do believe that no homosexual could go to heaven.  I don't believe that this is what the Bible teaches (see my related hub "How should the Christian church respond to homosexuality" for details).

  50. DzyMsLizzy profile image91
    DzyMsLizzyposted 5 years ago

    As a fellow atheist, I see no logic or truth whatsoever in the bible.  It is a book written centuries after the stories presented therein.  It is no more than a historical snapshot of those times, and the attitudes and opinions then exisiting.

    Furthermore, in 300-something A.D., the Council of Nicea convened and decided what "books" of the bible should be allowed for public view, and which should be banned. The bible as it currently exists, is abridged to the point that there are more "books" that were removed at that meeting than currently appear, so the 'whole story' such as it may have been, is not even told.

    Taking things a step further, there are so many contradictions in its pages as to make the entire manuscript laughable.  However, one thing stands out in my mind:  the Christians claim that their god made all of us.  That includes homosexuals.  Homosexuality is a physical property in the brain that can be seen on a CAT scan.  It is not a "lifestyle choice."  Ergo, if these judgemental extremists want to condemn homosexuals, they are then also claiming or admitting that thier god made "junk."  But they claim god is perfect and so are his creations.  That does not compute.  It is more likely they will be the ones not going to the 'heaven' in which they believe, as punishement for being judgemental and bigoted.
    According to their beliefs, only their god can pass judgement!

    As for heaven and hell?  I don't believe either place exists.  They are simply scare-and-reward tactics dreamed up by these same authors and perpetrated by religions for one purpose:  control.  Keep people scared, and they will obey and consent to all kinds of distasteful practices.
    This is no different than the fear-mongering tossed about by politicians.  Did you ever notice the increase in stories about sex scandals and supposed molestations as an election year approaches?  Yep--it's an attempt to make ever more laws to remove our freedoms under the guise of 'keeping us safe,' and to exert control over the populace by the wealthy elite in the government who exist only to serve their own ends and not 'we the people' as we are taught in school.

    So, no, homosexuals are not going to "heaven," but neither is anyone else...and the same goes for hell.  The life force within us can be measured as electrical energy, and energy can be neither created nor destroyed.  It may change form, but still exists. Therefore, the theory of reincarnation makes somewhat more sense than heaven or hell.  There is more evidence and proof of ghosts than of any god.

    1. cooldad profile image60
      cooldadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wonderful comment, I totally agree.  Thanks for stopping by.

      1. must65gt profile image78
        must65gtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        if you are right then I live a better life becasue of the choices I made with in my moral fiber. If I am right....

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          By your statement, in this thread, you are saying your morals include being bigoted and judgmental. If you're right (I assume you are refering to heaven and hell), wouldn't being bigoted and judgmental get you the down elevator?

          1. must65gt profile image78
            must65gtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I never said I was either. That was your assumption. I simply stated that I know what I believe, and I stand by my beliefs. I do not judge; that’s your area obviously. My comments simply stated that if there is no God, then I lived a life that offered me more inner peace because of the choices I made with in my moral fibre. if I am right then the choice some make to dis-believe and live among others who condone that alternative lifestyle, according to God’s word, will have hell to pay.

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It wasn't that simple now, was it?  You come into a thread that poses the question will homosexuals go to heaven or hell.  You said

              if you are right then I live a better life becasue of the choices I made with in my moral fiber. If I am right....

              This implies that your moral fiber is better, whether or not there is a heaven or hell.  It also implies that if there is a heaven you get to go, others entry is doubtful.

              Exactly where were you not sitting in judgment?

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Good job of not judging others.

            3. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sounds pretty judgmental to me, but that's just from reading your post.

              1. must65gt profile image78
                must65gtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I see Emile, you are looking to add prominence to yourself by the statements and judging me as being judgemental. I never judged anyone. I simply stated what is written in the Bible, and what I believe. If you wish to call me judgemental, then so be it. My shoulders can bear what ever you wish to throw at me. However, sooner or later, one of us will be right and one will be wrong. I will still pray for you, but the question is where does your heart lie? Would you offer the same concern for another's soul? Even in the Bible, Jesus said, "Many will come saying Lord Lord, but few will enter the Kingdom of heaven" You find pleasure in crowding "Christians" into a large group as one type of people. I did not simplify you as the same as everyone else.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this



                  Your first post. You judged yourself to be righteous. You judged that others would be deemed unrighteous if there is a heaven.  You subsequently commented on alternative lifestyles being wrong.  If you would like to pretend that this is not being judgmental. That’s OK.  But, I have enough respect for the intellect of others to believe you can understand what the definition of being judgmental is.



                  No one has thrown anything at you.  Simple question. Simple statement.  Why are you now pretending that you are being persecuted?




                  Are you serious?  Where does your heart lie?




                  That will probably apply equally to those who sit in judgment and quote things like that to prove their perceived higher ground.



                  Is there a mouse in your pocket?  How did I crowd you into a large group?

    2. sonfollowers profile image94
      sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Can you list references for the claims below?  You seem sure of these so hopefully you have reliable sources you can share.

      "It is a book written centuries after the stories presented therein." 

      "Taking things a step further, there are so many contradictions in its pages as to make the entire manuscript laughable."

      "Homosexuality is a physical property in the brain that can be seen on a CAT scan."

      Also...

      "The life force within us can be measured as electrical energy, and energy can be neither created nor destroyed.   It may change form, but still exists." 
      I'm not sure how this statement is supposed to refute the existence of heaven or hell.  If heaven/hell do exist then our "life force" would simply transfer to those locations.  I'm pretty sure that most Christians who believe in heaven and hell would actually agree with you on this point.  About energy not being able to be created, I'm comfortable with saying that this energy has always existed.  Seems reasonable to me.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Good. Then it should seem reasonable that no god is required.

        1. sonfollowers profile image94
          sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Interesting deduction.  How?  You';re saying that the belief that the energy inside us can neither be created or destroyed somehow means that God is excluded from the equation?  From my perspective, God (who has always been here and "can neither be created or destroyed") is the source of our energy.  That energy has always existed because God has always existed.  So simply saying that "energy can be neither created nor destroyed" can not logically be considered to say anything at all about Christianity or God Himself.

    3. sonfollowers profile image94
      sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      DzyMsLizzy,

      "Homosexuality is a physical property in the brain that can be seen on a CAT scan.  It is not a "lifestyle choice."

      You seem to be implying that the presence of "homosexuality" on a CAT scan (a claim that does need to be verified) is proof that people are born homosexual.  I'm not sure that this makes sense.  I do understand that a tumor will also show up on a CAT scan.  Are you saying then that people who have tumors were actually born with them as well?  Just wondering.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Ive seen a couple of sites where researchers looked into the brain etc and came to the conclusion,that just something may?..or it could possibly...but sadly nothing conclusive.

        If you have evidence do share it through.

        1. 0
          Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Evidence is never good enough for Christians.  I have had so many discussions with Christians who tell  me that the universe was created in September 4004 BC, and took six days to complete.  They deny evolution, and say 'show me the evidence.'  I then spend my time finding science websites which include real evidence that evolution is a fact.  The Christians then respond by saying 'show me the evidence.'  I then realsie that I have wasted my time, because Christians have a mental block and any attempt to show them the evidence is bound to end in failure.  Christians believe what they want to believe and no amount of evidence will ever be able to influence their world view.  This is why arguing with someone who has the "Truth" is like trying to stop the sea or demanding the sun to stop shining.  Science is held to be the devil's child by many Christians, and any evidence is therefore not worthy of their consideration.  I think it is better for those who do believe in the evidence of science to admit failure and to accept that there are people for whom no amount of evidence will ever be enough.  I have copied a very simple video, which explains the latest scientific understanding of the biological causes of homosexuality, that even Christians can understand and pasted it on here several times.  Yet no Christian has ever commented upon it, so I will not bother to copy and paste it again, because I don't want to waste my time.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Which is precisely why I never pasted a site who refuted claims that there was some different brain activity that may or may not predict homosexuality.
            Perhaps we are both right ,or both wrong.Never the less,always at the bottom of what 'we' think is the truth is the fact that we all must exist and do the very best with the knowledge that is available to us all.
            And then whether we progress to enquiring spiritual matters (which Im sure we  all do ,at sometimes) it will ultimately between individuals and their God.

            Life is to short to be mean and unloving.
            And for me that includes loving the one who loves me best. smile

            1. ipodcaster profile image60
              ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You're right, spiritual matters are between individuals and God. And, everyone has different relationships with God based on their ability to allow greater understanding. This spiritual stuff isn't for the faint of heart or for those who are stubborn and resistant to change. One's ego mind needs to take a back seat to their Spirit-self, which is the "image and likeness of God," the great Spirit. When the ego quiets down and we truly yearn for connection, Spirit is there loving us. Memorizing scripture and pretending we know truth is the ego mind. When someone can SHOW others how to experience God, they are worth listening to because they become our teachers, not judges and arguers.

              You say: Life is to short to be mean and unloving.  Yes! Loving is essential. Accepting that not everyone can understand your experiences is wisdom. Love your "enemies," or those who argue with you. Forgive and love. If people could do that, they're on their way!

          2. ipodcaster profile image60
            ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God created the Earth in 6 days? LOL The only reason we have "days" is because we are on a planet that is close to a light source and it spins. God wasn't living on Earth as he created all of life, so perhaps God's days are eons long. It's like this thought: "In my great grandfather's day, there were no cars." Now, did my great grandfather live just one day. No. The word day is meant as an interval of time. The ancient languages (of which were used to write the bible) had limited vocabularies. And in time, words shifted in their meanings. People who project their limited understanding into the meaning of the bible are not worth getting upset over. Really, don't bother. They are brainwashed to believe absurd things. Would you let the babblings of a baby upset you? It's like that. Just smile and say: "Lord, they know not what they are talking about."

            I love what my mother said years ago. It was: "Maybe God created the world and it evolved." I love that! How open-minded and unpretentious.

          3. sonfollowers profile image94
            sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hey, Sherlock.

            First of all, my perspective is that I don't really care if the 6 days is literal or figurative.  It's simply not an important part of Christian theology from my perspective.  I understand it's deeply important to some people but I don't really get it.

            I understand that Christians can be a little on the stubborn side.  This is equally true of non-Christians.  About evidence, it sounds like your perspective is that evidence is proof.  That's simply not the case.  Evidence is one or more reasons to believe something is true but it is not the same thing as proof.  Evidence is not necessarily conclusive.  Each person has to weigh the evidence and decide what they believe is true.  I think this is certainly the case for macroevolution, which is really more of a hypothesis with inconclusive evidence.  The funny thing is that there's plenty of evidence that Jesus is who He said He is but non-Christians never want to hear about it.  So I feel your pain. smile  While some Christians may be biased against even discussing the evidence for evolution, many non-Christians are every bit as biased about discussing the evidence for Jesus as the Messiah.  We're very polarized around these issues in much the same way that we are polarized around political issues in this country. 

            At the end of the day, each person just has to decide for themselves.  It's as simple as that.

            1. 60
              Rabgixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You're psychotic. Yes, Jesus of Nazareth probably did exist but he mostly likely was seen as a threat to the Roman powers and that's why he was executed.

              Men cannot do magic.

              1. wilderness profile image98
                wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No, Jesus was seen as a threat by Jewish leaders - the Roman in charge tried his best not to allow the execution to take place.  That Jesus was crucified was a direct result of the Jewish rabble demanding it.

                Or so goes the Christian recording.  Who really knows?

                1. 60
                  Rabgixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No one really knows and can't know. I can't wait for the day Christians are seen as the fools they really are and no longer have no bearing on government or society.

                2. amymarie_5 profile image89
                  amymarie_5posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The romans rewrote the bible after Christianity was declared the new religion of Rome and forced on people. During the time of Christ the Romans controled Jewish territories. It doesn't make sense that the Jews, who were powerless, could force the Romans to do anything let alone crucify someone who did nothing other than help the jewish people ( his people). Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. It doesn't surprise me that the barbaric Romans who invented crucifixion would throw the Jewish people under the bus.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hear hear!

                  2. wilderness profile image98
                    wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So the holy book of Christianity, inspired and guided by God, is false to fact?  I doubt you will find very many believers that will agree with you.  Mind you, I do - I find then whole tome filled with lies.  This might even be one of them (although don't Jewish "history" books indicate the same?).

                    I do have to say, however, your your changing the written word of God to fit your own preconceived notions of how things should be doesn't make a lot of sense either.  Jews certainly DID have power then - not much, but some.  The same way, perhaps, that those involved in "civil disturbances" do today.  They can cause almost endless trouble for the authorities.

                  3. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this


                    The Romans didn't invent crucifixion, they just made it famous with the death of Jesus. Crucifixion was around a long time prior to the romans using it. It is documented in Genesis as being used by the pharoah in Joseph's time. And it was used by the Persians as well.

    4. ipodcaster profile image60
      ipodcasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Bible thumpers can terrify me at times. They are just SO right -- or so they need to believe. Yet, there are some things in the bible that ring true. I like to take what serves my growth and leave the rest behind.

      1. kmackey32 profile image82
        kmackey32posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Bible Thumpers...lol I am soooooo using that word from now on....lol

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God-botherers or bible bashers are our local terms for zealots, but I like that one as well. smile

          1. calpol25 profile image75
            calpol25posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            We call them that or tambourine bashers lol :-)

        2. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Me too ....