Everyone keeps talking about who gets to go which way; and I realized no one has ever said where they think either is.
I'd be interested in the thoughts of those who think we go straight to heaven or hell when we die. Do you propose parallel universes? Right here, around us, but you can't see it? A couple of planets in a distant galaxy?
If you believe in heaven and hell, where do you think they are?
Neither heaven nor hell can be in our universe; both existed before the supposed creation of our universe.
Whether that place is another dimension, another parallel universe or some unnamed type of place is unknown. We can't even make an intelligent guess as we have no indication that such things even exist.
Ok. That's such a cute little avatar. And then you post such sensible comments. I always think of the E Trade baby.
I agree with your post, but there seem to be quite a few people here with strong opinions and appear to be so sure as to what happens after death. I thought it might be fascinating to hear what they think they've come up with.
If they've thought about it, that is.
Thank you - it's my favorite pic of my little grandson.
Historically, of course, hell was underground and heaven floating in the sky somewhere. I don't think you'll find many with those concepts anymore, though. Some kind of "spirit world" seems common, but without any kind of definition what or where the spirit world is. About like saying "Heaven is heaven and it is where it is".
Not sure where you get the idea that Heaven and Hell were already in existence before there was a reason for them. I don't see that in scripture, anyway.
Heaven wasn't up and Hell down historically, but rather scripturally. It is one of the ways that scripture reveals its flat earth cosmology. Since we now know that the earth is not flat, we have to wonder if Jesus returns in the sky will it be over Newark or Nagasaki? Kansas City or Kabul? If we dig deep enough toward the earth's core, will we reveal Hell? If scripture is taken literally, we have to confront these questions.
Strong opinions are like strong drinks. The more of them you endure the stronger they have to be to have an effect on you. As for heaven and hell, Ive heard a few differing theories on this. Some say theyre both a state of mind. This makes the most sense to me because my mind has gone to both extremes. Having gone through drug addiction and other emotional issues throughout my life, Id have to say a hellish state of mind is nowhere to be. Ive also experienced the opposite of this through love and joy and just the realization of how great it is to be alive. However, when Scripture refers to heaven or the heavens, in my opinion theyre just talking about something that came from 'up there'. Whereas Milton and Dante came up with hell, or atleast the wide, specific conceptualizations of hell that we are familiar with. And then theres the folks who believe God is a non-physical energy matrix and thats what heaven is, whereas those who want to separate from the time matrix and abandon their souls want to create the phantom matrix, which they believe is hell. These are also among the people who believe the Universe has 18 dimensions and we currently see only three or four of them. Having said that I prefer to tinker about mostly with the state of mind theory.
I get the state of mind theory, and I agree with it; while we are alive.
I have my own theory for after death, which doesn't include pearly gates or people writhing in agony in the eternal hellfire.
That's what fascinates me. I'd be interested in hearing someone who believes in heaven and hell explain where they think it could be. How they think it could be. I'm sure they've thought about it. No one could simply believe without attempting to rationalize.
It is a state of being.... a state of existence
So, are you saying we're in heaven or hell now?
Neither heaven nor hell is hidden from the man, infact, they both exist within the man and the man exist within both.
One belong to heaven when he recognizes the difference between the two , in pursuit of heaven he strives after the separation of one from the other so as to put order within himself.
Hell belongs to the one who have seen these things, so he continues in his own confusion for Hell is of such ...a confused state of being , this is why it is also known as chaos...
Well here are my thoughts, also a bit too detailed to put on the forum, so have a read here.... http://hoowantstono.hubpages.com/hub/For-the-HELL-of-it
Where heaven and hell are is irrelevant. They could easily be in our universe (hell could be inside the sun, for example). It's not as if anyone here has actually been anywhere other than this planet. An omnipotent creator God like the one described in the Bible could put it anywhere he wanted. The only thing we really know for certain is that we can't see it. We haven't seen alien life forms either, but people are sure they exist.
You can join together arm in arm around the camp fire all night singing songs about how this doesn't exist or that doesn't exist. But the truth is that not being able to see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There is evidence for the "myth". Millions of people believe today for a reason. The church survived the persecution of the Roman empire for a reason. If you are not convinced by the evidence then that is your choice. You have every right to choose what you believe. To ridicule something simply because you don't believe it is antagonistic and stupid. It's every bit as bad as those who would ridicule you for not believing. Make your choice. Let them make theirs. If you can't do that then stop getting angry when Christians judge you for being who you are. You in fact are no different than they are.
Since you obviously had no answer to the question, there is no reason to stamp your little foot. If you had bothered to read the OP you would have noticed that it was a simple question. No where has anyone been ridiculed for their responses.
You, on the other hand, suffered an emotional reaction to the fact that you fear the question and prejudged me and my motives; without bothering to think about the question.
Very nice. You do your religion proud.
I disagree. Based on your other comments, you started this specifically because you feel that there is a "conundrum" that is damaging somehow to Christian theology that needs to be resolved, that Christians somehow need to "rationalize" something related to this in order to believe. You're passively trying to make a point here. I don't fear the question. I think questions are great. But I do understand why you're asking, and it's antagonistic. It's not as if you're invested at all in the answers we could give. You've already decided that there is no God, heaven, hell, etc. This is purely for entertainment value for you, because it's fun to watch Christians deal with questions you think will cause them problems.
Having said that, I'm happy to answer questions if I think they're reasonable questions that add value. This adds no value. There is no conundrum. There is nothing to rationalize. Whatever answers we come up with have no bearing on the validity of scripture at all. It means nothing. I simply don't care enough to have an opinion on the actual question asked. That's the bottom line.
Wow. You definitely try to see the world in the worst possible light, judging by your two posts on this forum.
Since when is the word 'conundum' damaging? I take it you are big on easy answers and not bothering to think about things that may never have an answer? Good for you, but there are actually people in the world who attempt to do the opposite. You can't prove anything. Neither can I. The point of the question was, what has anyone thought on the topic.
What point am I attempting to make? That you, in particular, fear a question? You're doing a good job making that point without any help from me.
That's enlightening. You perceive a problem and attempt to project it on me. Is this how you deal with everything you run across that doesn't suit your fancy? Claim persecution?
That is perfectly fine. The logical move would have been to not begin the dialogue in the first place. Why are you reacting so emotionally? So what if you aren't interested in replying to a question I posted?
And yet, here we are, two posts later. If you don't care, why in the world are you making a mountain out of it?
Ok, fine. I suppose I have to admit that I did overreact. It was a crappy morning... And I will make one more concession: the fact that I think it's irrelevent doesn't mean I'm not interested. It still feels like a "speed trap" for newbie Christians, but if you say that's not the purpose then that's fine.
I honestly still can't see a conundrum here. What exactly is it that's supposed to be causing us grief about this question? I just don't get it..
Nice to see your day mellowed out.
I wasn't trying to suggest that the question causes anyone grief. I was interested in thoughts on the question.
I get the same impression from comments made on the forums that I get in life. And maybe it follows through. It appears the religious and the atheists both (although they adamantly proclaim they have the final answer) have simply given up. I'm not drawn toward either argument.
The atheists appear to ignore one obvious fact and Christianity appears to ignore a few also. Without using the crutch of Scripture, I was hoping to find someone who could explain the belief in a separate realm for heaven and hell.
If God made everything; and heaven and hell are part of that, then it would seem logical that belief in the two could be resolved.
But, I don't perceive a problem if people can't, or haven't, resolved it. I was simply hoping to get the thoughts from someone who believed they had.
From my perspective, we know entirely too little about this universe to be able to say heaven and hell do or do not exist anywhere physically in the universe. We have too little access to it. I think there are tons of possibilities for where something like heaven and hell could physically be but we have no way to validate or invalidate those theories. We could go on a search for it through the cosmos only to discover that it's physically in another dimension somewhere. The Bible doesn't say anything about it other than that they exist.
The thng about the Bible is that neither the writers of it nor it's original audience were from this century. I tthink it needed to be written in such a way that it would make sense to people then as well as people now. So answers to scientific questions seem very dumbed down and I think it was a necessary thing. It was not intended to answer the scientific questions about the universe anyway. I think the story of creation is primarily intended to communicate one thing: "Hi there. I made you. Here's a little bit about how that happened."
So given that, I don't think it's a dilemma. I think there is a perceived dilemma caused by people who believe that the world had to have been created in six 24 days or that science must be subservient to the exact details of the Bible. It's like when a four year old asks his parents where babies come from. Parents (most, anyway) don't go into all of the details of how that happens. They give an answer that's technically accurate but sufficiently vague because the four year old isn't ready for all of the details anyway and they don't really need to know yet. That's how the Bible is when it comes to answers it wasn't really trying to address in detail.
That's my perspective.
Sorry, but this is completely absurd!
Believing in childish nonsense is not comparable to accepting reality. But with your ridiculous God "All nonsense is possible."
YES ... even the nonsense coming out of YOUR corner is possible for my God to establish for you, if this is your choice.
Or something like that?
You and I are like a universe in and of ourselves, Of our own choosing.
Not only do worlds collide, but universes also. Then, after the colision, Their components join becoming one, and a new truth is created.
So Yes anything is ... possible/probable
This would only makes sense if your nonsensical God were real, BUT....
I will give Ya that ...
God is not real in YOUR world cause You made it SO.
In My universe .... he is very much alive.
I gotta get out of here in a few minutes, ???
Is God really your problem, or is it all other "CONCEPTS" (other than yours) of "Who or what? people precieve their God to be?
I everyone were of one mind ? You wouldn't be causing so much conflict.
I really gotta go now ... wish I didn't!
The sun will not exist for an eternity, neither will the earth, so it would seem that hell is not on earth, the sun or anywhere else in the physical universe.
The Kingdom of Heaven is suppose to be among us today. When Jesus came to the earth, He brought the Kingdom of Heaven (Kingdom of God) into the earth. It is clear throughout the gospels that Jesus and his disciples taught that the Kingdom of Heaven has come to the Earth. Sadly, poor theology always puts Heaven, "as a place to go when you die."
there two ETERNITY after death.One is eternity in HELL and the other is eternity in HEAVEN.HEAVEN AND HELL ARE PLACES MEANT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE SINNERS OF THE WORLD.
Heaven is a nice MLT: Mutton Lettuce and Tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean--that's so perky. I love that.
Hell is other people.
I believe heaven and hell are conceptual only, and exist here on Earth.
I could go in to detail, but it doesn't take much to see that the many atrocities committed on a daily basis, along with the rampant spread of illness, are as hellacious as it gets.
Heaven is not visible by the human eyes, but, your spirit eyes can see it.
Hell you wouldn't want to see, but your spirit knows it.
Are spirit eyes available in different colors and shades? Where do you buy them? Why are they not shown in biology and anatomy books?
I don't think it is a place, but a demension.
"Where are Heaven and Hell?"
They are both here on Earth. We are each within our own.
Heaven is a life of a rich person with no financial worries or any worries for that matter.
Hell is a life of someone with every kind of worry possible..
I might disagree with you on that one. Some of the most contented and spiritually peaceful people I know are poor, by our standards.
I don't know that I've ever met any happy rich people. They seem to worry about everything. And the super rich? I don't know, they don't seem really happy either.
Heaven is at the end of a life following Jesus Christ.
Hell is at the end of a Christless life.
Thanks Sir Dent. That really isn't an answer; but I do get the sentiment. Out of curiosity, have you thought about it past that? Not saying you have to, but I'd be interested if you've got a theory going.
I don't have any theories going about them. I can expound on what the Bible says about them. How deep do you want to go?
I've read the Bible. I know what it says. The point of the question is simply; how much has anyone thought about it?
I won't lie to you. I think a lot of things in the Bible that reference it are people's imagination of what it might be like; because there are different ideas presented.
I remember somewhere Paul talked about comparing a human body to a seed and the spiritual one to a full grown plant. The point being that they would be so different it would be difficult to imagine they were the same.
Other places you could assume you'd have your earthly form.
Which means it's probably not wrong for you guys to use your imaginations to work it out too. Although it seems like a conundrum; I think it would be something you'd want to resolve.
The human body is not the seed. The human body is the ground where a seed is planted.
So are you saying you don't want me to expound on it? A simple yes or no will suffice. I don't want to push anything on anyone.
Probably not. The question is simply where do you think heaven is. And where do you think hell is. Not what, but where.
Would your answer include that?
I realize you think I'm going to scoff. That is not my intent. We both know you aren't going to say the dark of Saturn.
But, you have to have attempted to resolve this dilemma. Heaven, by the way Christians talk, is a physical place. You all speak of being at Christ's right hand. Standing in the presence of God. Whether you think it is done in the flesh, or spirit, you are standing around nonetheless.
Where do you think this takes place? Heaven, I know. But where? Of all of the people who have died and gone to heaven or hell; where do you propose that to be? Do you see it as close? Across the cosmos? A different universe?
I cannot give you an honest answer about the actual physical location of hell.
I really haven't given much thought to it. For me, I have no reason to try to find it or figure out where it is.
I do not think you to be a scoffer. There are plenty of those around here. Usually, I can tell who will scoff and who won't.
Just offhand, I believe hell is closer than we think it is.
Ring Dang Doo
Sam the Sham & The Pharaohs
Well - you can have your gold and your diamonds too
All I want is a ring dang doo
Well I've been all over this great big world HEY
Looking for a ring dang doo
I've fallen in love with a thousand girls YEAH
Looking for a ring dang doo
I've got a mojo and some voodoo too
But I ain't never found a ring dang doo
Well I was down ina New Orleans
Looking for a ring dang doo
I fell in love with a girl in blue jeans
Looking for a ring dang doo
But I can't stay though my love is true
I gotta keep looking for a ring dang doo
Ring dang doo
Where are you
What are you
>From Mexico to the Philippines YEAH
Looking for a ring dang doo
Well I've drunk with peasants and I've dined with kings
Looking for a ring dang doo
But I ain't never found a single clue
I've gotta keep a-looking for a ring dang doo
Well people call me crazy every single day YEAH
Looking for a ring dang doo
But I don't care what people may say NO
Looking for a ring dang doo
I don't know what it looks like
Or what it can do
I gotta find that ring dang doo
Ring dang ring dang ring dang doo
Ring dang ring dang ring dang doo
You can have your gold and your diamonds too
All I want is a ring dang doo
I would put it differently.
Hell is believing and following a psychopathic myth without any proof, and heaven is leading a good moral life without any myths admonishing with hate anyone who doesn't drink the kool-aid.
c s lewis said heaven and hell were two rooms. in both rooms, people who could not bend their elbows were sitting at a banquet table filled with luscious food. in hell, people were trying to feed themselves and frustrated that they could not reach their mouths. in heaven, people were feeding each other across the table. i agree with c s that heaven has a lot to do with how you treat your fellow man.
i like your good moral life of yelling at christians. You must be a peace in your world if you feel such compunction. (sarcasm)
I find peace when i please God. A much more satisfying peace than when i lived just to please myself.
the kool-aid is great!
One is up and one is down in the pits. Trust me you want to go up. This is for all of eternity Life on ths planet is like a coffee stop before our permanent home. I wrote a hub on heaven and hell. They are for real. I am going up to the Light this is for certain My name is written in the Lambs book of life. You want your name in there. when you ask jesus into your heart and repent of sin and make him lord and saviour of your life your will go to heaven. It is a free ticket. If you deny jesus you deny God the father and it is doomsday for eternity. God loves you and me and all the creation He wants none to perish. To perish is seperation form God forever. That is a dark thought. Choose Heaven. Choose God. He is the way truth and light. Love n Peace to you emile r
Well I got my free ticket to eternity 35 years ago, so all is well!
Amen and Praise the Lord brother. It is a Blessing to meet you another bro at the hubs. Christ will bring down all of heaven on earth to Mount Zion. Eternity after the millennium well it is in the light a mystery to me. It is up that is for sure. Hell is in the pits of the earth. I recall a scripture and will look in my concordance. Sweet Dreams
Got scripture to back up your claim? because there are no free tickets to eternity, everything is based on loving God, which clearly you no longer do.
So i'd be interested to get enlightened about your free ticket theory, however do not be alarmed when i debunk it, but gimme the chance, will ya
I do appreciate the sentiment; but that's not an answer to the question. I don't think.
Where is down? Are you advocating hell is in the earth? Where exactly?
Where exactly 'up' do you think heaven is?
I'm not attempting to argue the point. I would like to know how you've resolved this. That can't be the end of your thought process on the subject.
I don't really. But if I had to guess, given that Earth is NOT the center of the universe and everything (and we already know that if you go straight up, you just high atmosphere and space) I would say that hell is the middle of the universe - the big bang. The outer bits of space where the universe has not expanded is therefore heaven effectively making reality and the universe - where we are - hell.
The location of both heaven and hell is quite a mystery here on earth. We got to know more of it when we already there, amidst the judgment, when we are judged whether to go to heaven or in hell. There are lot of speculations about the real location of the two eternal destinations. But no matter where it is, what we can do today is live righteously according to the will of God.
Placing hell in the center of the earth, or far below the surface in the fiery innards of the planet, would indeed be quite convenient for a God. Especially since almost all people to ever live, according to Christianity, are going there, according to a certain eminent writer on these matters...
http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/He … on-of-Hell
I think most believers would subscribe more or less to the parallel universe idea. That is, since heaven and hell are more spiritual states, rather than physical locations, they do not lie within the physical world. They lie outside the physical realm, in the spiritual realm. Thus you can't ask "where" they are anymore than you can ask how many corners there are in a circle. The definition of the thing has ruled it out.
At least, that's what they believe nowadays, in light of modern science and knowledge of geology and astronomy. In the past, for the vast majority of history, humans certainly did think that actual physical locations were involved. This is seen in almost all world religious traditions.
Heaven and Hell fall in the realm of ancient mythology. These places do not exist and if they did exist where would they be. People need to stop saying that they are in another dimension because that doesn't make any sense and why would they be in another dimension?
heaven: is where God is, it exists either tangibly or ethereally, as God is spirit and fills all our universe, heaven is hard to locate, but we will not go there. Heaven is only for God and the created angels. Biblically heaven defines three times: our atmosphere, space or the cosmos and Gods throne room.
Gods plan is circular.
As in the beginning, the garden, so in the end, God comes to earth and we, in spiritual bodies for eternity, live on earth restored to its pristine state.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Hell: and it seems only a few christians understand this, is a catholic fear doctrine. Burning for eternity and being tormented for eternity, does not happen. The second death is just that, death a second time, after judgment. There is no hell as told by the catholics and taught by mainstream christianity, therefore it has no location. Metaphorically, hell would be separation from God and literally hell translates as a grave.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Hell, was inserted into the bible because of the bishops who proofread the translation of the king james bible after the translators finished and before presenting the finished book to james. This was done because they needed to align the text up to their already firm doctrines.
Heaven will be on earth, restored to its pristine state???
There isn't room now for all the people if the earth was still pristine without all the works of man. Add in all past generations and it will be shoulder to shoulder people amongst the trees and dinosaurs or other animals that make up much of the earths beauty.
Unless you subscribe to the idea that only a relative handful of people will make it to hell?
Actually, I read somewhere that if you took everyone on earth, right now, and gave them each a 1200 square foot house; the houses would fit into the state of Texas.
I always wondered if that was true. If so, we would have plenty room. If you bought into that scenario.
Edit. Strike that. Dinosaurs? Some religions think we'll be living with dinosaurs? This gets odder by the minute.
Running the figures for the area of Texas and 7 billion people, it comes to about 1000 square feet per person.
On the other hand, using the whole earth, there is around 2 square miles of land area per person. This should be enough, even given that trees, animals, lakes, rivers and such remove much of it. Add in just 2 or 3 generations from the past and consider that much of pristine earth is not really livable (antarctica and mount Everest?), though, and it decreases very rapidly. Of course, if only a few dozen make it to heaven all will be fine.
Dinosaurs - what is pristine? From eons ago before humanity, or current with all man's works removed and put back to the wild state? I don't think any religion thinks we'll be living with dinosaurs.
Its a big planet. The new one may be bigger. More land mass centered around the equator. I'm sure God will not be stumped by numbers.
I'm sure that if there is a deity that created the universe; that same deity could do what it wanted. However, I heard somewhere once that a city described in Revelations was 12 miles cubed. That would house an exorbitant number, in and of itself. I suppose anyone working in line with that scenario wouldn't feel the need to fatten the earth at the equator.
But, there again. It's a bit of a pickle. It's a lousy conceptualization of an eternity. Who would imagine being packed like sardines in a tiny corner of existence. And why?
No pickle at all
Do you really entertain for a second that God would have people to be packed like sardines?
If so, i gotta chuckle.
The tiny corner of existence is beautiful.
Stellar travel would be bonus i have no conclusion about that.
Well, maybe not sardines. It appears I had the size wrong. But packed in. By the book you use.
Revelations 20:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17
Revelations 21:16 The city was square: its length was the same as its width. He measured the city with his rod, and it was about 1,374 miles long. Its length, width, and height were the same.
Hmm..if that is true... only about 216,161,802 people can fit if stacked head to toe and front to back (if we figure for average 6 foot tall person of medium build)...There is going to be alot of disappointed christians if that is the case.
Maybe heaven does not follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle.
No. Actually, that would be an exorbitant size. Think about it. 1374 miles. Cubed. That's halfway across America cubed. I must have gotten something wrong. That's huge.
Yeah you are right...I forgot something in my math...LOL...Oops..
It is 1,369,601,177,472 people (using human measurements of 6'x1'x2'). I think I did the math right this time...
I would have miscalculated too. That's kind of mind boggling. You wonder why the writer came up with that figure.
But remember, you're calculating only one level, probably. This thing is said to be cubed so it goes up 1300 miles also.
I found the cubed area of both items...(Approx that is)
I don't know DS. I'm not close to a calculator, but when I ran the twelve mile cube this morning about 7 billion 1000 sq spaces could be put into it. Assuming a 10 foot ceiling on all levels.
There's 5380 feet to a mile.
Yeah that is what i did..found the cubed miles then divided by 5280 ft per mile and then used 12 feet cubed for a human...but of course my math is rusty..it has been awhile since I did any math...LOL...
You divided when you should have multiplied. For one mile, there is 5320 feet. So, (5320 x 1374) x (5320 x 1374). The number you come up with is the square feet. That's per level. I had calculated a 10 foot height per level, just as an arbitrary number.
When you look at it, it is quite monstrous. Think about 1/4 the land mass of the contiguous United States for one level. Even if you had a ceiling height of 1/2 mile per level, you've still got 2700 levels.
This is very odd. I never saw this before.
Like I said.. my math is rusty...and I think I did multiply the ft for the miles...I just said it wrong...But any way it goes...it is a large area but would be very cramped unless it has multiple floors...
*Google said 5280 ft per mile that is why I used that number..
Forgot my basics...do what is in the ()'s first...
You're right on the feet per mile, I typed wrong.
But a 1300 mile high one level city would be a tremendous waste of space.
Agreed. And multiple floors... if you are scared of heights and get the top floor...would that really be Heaven...LOL...
But following the logic that God only put life on this one planet...all that wasted space would fit his style...
yah but that is not the whole planet. Those measurements are just the temple.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy CITY, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the TABERNACLE of God is WITH men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (So much for the sardine packaging theory)
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are TRUE and FAITHFUL. (WOW)
Then we get into the description of the city
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (This pertains to the Holy of Holies as in the first tabernacle with moses in the desert)
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (Part of the "all things new")
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall NOT be SHUT at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
So safe to assume we do not LIVE in the city, we are free to come and go and live on the PLANET.
a bit of evangelizing:
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE.
Better make sure your names are written in the lambs (jesus') book of life.
Did you read that, before you pasted it in?
Behold, the TABERNACLE of God is WITH men, and he will dwell with them
Sounds to me as if they are living together.
But, the truth is. What do I care? This isn't real. It's some guy's dream.
The point I see is that all of this divine retribution you guys preach is not biblical. Sounds like there's not only room for everybody in the Biblical heaven; but it was said to be designed expecting everyone to make it there.
Sounds to me like you guys got something wrong somewhere in the middle of your interpretations.
awwww and you were doing so well
It seems like every time you get close to understanding some new thing you just cave in and go right back to duhville.
Perhaps this agnositc stance is not the best afterall.
God is in the city and we will visit Him there but we also get to go out and play once in a while. Cmon.
Now, as the mayor of duhville I know you want to think I live there too; but it's just not going to happen BO. I love people too much to be stuck in your town. I know what you're thinking, but even of you offer me the key to the city of duhville I'll have to turn it down. It isn't a real key anyway. It's just your imagination.
God specifically warns against false teachers and Jesus maintained that there is only ONE way to God and that there is only ONE God.
1.5 billion christians on the earth today. How many of those will be successful? How many of those, in other words, are actually connected to the vine?
Remember the parable about the 10 wise and 10 foolish virgins? How some of them did not make it?
The number one commandment... Love the lord God with all your heart, soul and mind.
The bible says a NEW EARTH, i cannot even imagine what that will be like.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and EVERY mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Dinosaurs will not be a part of the new earth and it will not be a technological society. Adam and Eves function was to tend the garden.
Well ok. I do appreciate the reply. I suppose, if you ignore the thought processes leading up to this point, this is a more believable scenario for the end. Sounds like the waste of a perfectly good universe to me.
Actually, it sounds like philosophy that could have been developed by ancient man before they understood the magnitude of the universe.
The universe is not large to God and He is well able to create another one as He did the first one. The universe is after all, just lifeless planets, space junk and a few luminaries. God loves to create.
Stop while you're slightly ahead on this one.
The universe is not full of junk. It is packed with things we don't understand yet. I find it odd that someone who professes a belief in a god that made everything would think that god made a universe filled with junk. That makes no sense to me.
I agree, Emile. I am surprised more Christians aren't curious about the universe. Why would god have created it in the first place if the only thing of "importance" was the earth, a mere speck in the midst of it all? From my experience, many Christians are against space exploration, because it is not important to them. I find it write sad that religion urges people to focus more on the spiritual aspect of life and push the physical aspect, the only one we can really prove, into a place of almost no importance.
For those that say there is no science in the bible and conclude from that that science should be of no importance to us, then consider when the bible was written... And then look at how far science had come. The knowledge we have now simply did not exist back then. Think of the human race as a single person. At the time the bible was written, that "person" was still young, and needed time to learn. Today, we have learned, collectively and as a society, the scientific knowledge we possess. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I am watching 3 children as I am writing this, and I am on my phone, so I apologize for any misspellings, errors, or words that should have been capitalized and weren't.
I very much agree. See my earlier post for similar thoughts. When I was a kid, I remember hearing people say "God don't make no junk." That's what I think of when I read this. Christians assume that, because the Bible doesn't say anything about life out there somewhere, there must not be any. It's faulty logic because it assumes that everything we might want to know about anything is in the Bible. Clearly this isn't the case. It wasn't intended to be the Encyclopedia Britannica.
For the record, I'm fascinated with whatever's out there.
life out there.
And how is that life proceeding? Since God made all things, did he just make life on other planets without knowledge of Him? Was there an adam and eve on those other planets? Are the inhabitants made of flesh and blood or of stone or sludge? Did adam and eve fall? Was jesus sacrificed on a cross? Is God working out other paths of salvation in various and sundry ways different to our own?
Ponder these questions too while you are at it.
I've already come to the conclusion that WE have Gods complete and full attention.
Perhaps god is working out these other planets' paths of salvation... the Bible was written by humans, not god, so how would these humans who wrote the stories know about these other planets and other beings? The big picture is we don't KNOW what's out there because so many people make it seem like it's not important. Unfortunately, it seems as if this planet we live on may not last as long as it could have because we humans are quickly destroying it. If we cannot live here, then we are going to have to find another place to live. OUT THERE could be the solution... I think it's very worth-while to spend more time and effort learning about what is around us. The world, the moon, and our solar system were all huge leaps of knowledge for us. It's time we look even further, because there is so much more we can learn.
Humble, are we?
If you ever decide to explore your religious options, I strongly suggest you skip buddhism.
Wow! You showed up right on cue!
Ok, you say you've determined that we have God's full undivided attention. I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion. Is there some obscure Biblical reference that you use as evidence or is this something you just thought through all by yourself? If we're all that there is then that totally works for me. It's not a problem. But I don't see how you could be absolutely sure of your statement given the information at our disposal. It seems like you would be saying to God that multiple civilizations would too much for him (ie. God in a box). I certainly don't presume to be smart enough to tell God what He can and can't do. I'm surprised you feel comfortable doing that. Be careful. He's bigger than you.
Was my post to difficult to understand? you all seemed to have completely not read it.
hschica: the bible was dictated by God and copied by humans. To the human mind 'out there' may seem like a solution BUT God has already solved that scenario by restoring his creation and having us live here. Problem solved, goodbye nasa, hello billions of $ to feed the starving. Have a nice day.
E mile: Humble, yes. you have no idea. I will never explore religious options and buddah won't be living eternal life with God either.
sonfollowers: Why would you wonder how i came to that conclusion? Did you not read the post.. do you think i gave you things to ponder that have nothing to do with my conclusion? If it works for you then great, if not, that's great too. I am quite happy with my conclusion.
As to He's bigger than you.. my answer is "the more i learn of God the bigger He gets".
BTW....... Everything we NEED to know IS already in the bible, we need no other book. God put it all in there. Remember the NEED is salvation based.. knowing the size of the earth doesn't get one saved, knowing how big saturn is doesn't get one saved.. everything we NEED to know is in the bible. The bible is all about saving people and that is the only importance.
I don't think the word humble means what you think it means. You might want to consider googling the definition.
This would be the opposite of humble. I thought I'd share that. To help. I don't know if you guys in duhville know how to google.
Another helpful hint. (don't you just love me?) Sticking all of mankind on earth for an eternity, because you think the universe is junk: well, let's just say that isn't really thinking big, like a god could.
How do you make an assumption like that?
Gods word clearly says we stay here. It has nothing to do with whether i think the cosmos is junk or not. As i even mentioned before, stellar travel will be fun... no doubt, but i don't see it in the bible and i don't feel inspired to convey its possibility.
yes i love ya, agape not phileo, but some of the things you say i cannot agree with. This is the problem with unsaved people tryin to decipher the bible and pick out what it means; the carnal mind cannot understand things of the spirit, they are foolishness to them, but what christians know and what non believers never consider is that the Spirit reveals, teaches and guides... does this happen in an instant? upon salvation? no, but over time, during consecration.
Nowhere in the bible does it say christians have to think big, like God can. I can make up scenarios like: God can multitask 100 or 1000 or even a million planets full of people just like us and each persons salvation too just like ours; Of course there are other earths with salvation plans on each one and Jesus's are being crucified on crosses every day, but, there comes a point when we have to not over spiritualize a thing and bring it back to some acceptable point of reason and say something like, God will make a home for us on earth or that our planet alone has Gods full attention.
No, BO. Your text says a lot of things. But, it is sad that what it says about how we should all treat each other in this life is mainly ignored. Too bad.
Until you understand the true meaning of agape, you won't get it. None of you will.
The funny thing is, you and all of the right wing zealots are blinded by your egos. You don't get it. You don't understand things of the spirit because you are locked inside a tremendous ego. That's what stands in your way of actually living by the words. That was the beginning of the point of religion. To help people rise above their petty differences and love one another. Because they had something in common. The love of a higher power. But that isn't good enough for some. They feel they deserve more love and understanding. It doesn't exist. What is there for one, is there for all. None of you have dibs on anything beyond the physical. If it exists, It's there for all.
You do realize that this section of your post flies in direct contradiction to other comments you made on this thread? That is a moot point until we can all learn to live together in peace and acceptance.
man i wish you had provided some evidence of all that.
how do you define agape.. is it not the mental decision to show love, a conscious choice?
As to ego, sorry all i did was quote Gods word to ya. I let you misunderstand it all by yourself and since it is Gods word, i can't take credit for them.
As to the contradiction... please be more exact. Contrary to popular opinion, I do love to learn a new thing.
To make the mental choice to show love, you must first understand the concept. You guys all refer to it as an action. It's no different from any other action. You have to learn how to do it correctly.
Let's say understanding the concept and the correct way to showing this love is like riding a bike. They say once you learn you never forget. But, first you have to learn. The christian concept of love is like riding a bike you've put training wheels on. You think you're riding a bike, like everyone else, but you're not. You think your bike is better because you've got an extra attachment, but it isn't. Your training wheels are stopping you from learning how to ride the bike.
I don't have a problem with scripture. Your interpretation is another thing entirely.
Don't be foolish. Read through your comments in this thread concerning the universe and life outside of earth. If you don't see the contradictions on your own, no amount of explanation will make you admit them.
ill admit them
if you show them
c'mon put a little effort into showing me my wrongs instead of just making it up that they exist.
Your refusal to review your own posts does not mean that I am required to do your leg work. What's the old saying? God helps those who help themselves? I believe it might be pertinent in this situation.
And I will answer a question you asked me previously. Where have you been proven wrong? Your false conclusions on the story of the Garden of Eden is one that comes to mind. Your argument fell flat, at every turn.
that's the best you can do?
I always read my own posts
When i catch you in a false statement i provide scripture I don't just try to paint an area black and then say do your own leg work.
I still say that you thinking we will not have access to the entire planet is typical of where you fall flat.
I didn't say people wouldn't have access to the whole planet. What, is your book describing a prison? The question was where they would live. That question is clearly answered where it talks about the fact that God would live with the people.
That's what is a little humorous about your reasoning. The things that fascinate you, you create your own little scenario about how you think they will play out; ignoring the text. The things that don't fascinate you; you argue that if it isn't in your book, it doesn't exist.
Do you see the pattern?
scripture says "live with" and i agree this term is somewhat open to interpretation. However, I also think we will be traveling the planet and busy doing other stuff. I can't picture myself having an apartment in new jerusalem. I rather picture that new jerusalem will become rather more of a meeting place than a residential building. But whatever, its not an overly important point.
Well, I personally think none of that will necessarily happen. I think the writer was trying to help people envision an eternity that would appeal to them. But, the audience was ancient man.
We have grown, and learned more about the universe than they could possibly have imagined. Those stories would not be the final ones in a book if it was written today.
If there is a God, it makes little sense for man to come so far and learn so much just to turn away from it all in the end. That's the problem with Revelations. It is too simplistic for all we now know.
Ok, so the answer is "something you thought through all by yourself". For some reason you're assuming that your questions in and of themselves prove a point. But questions that are impossible to answer can't be considered evidence. Each question produces a shrug of the shoulders because we can't possibly answer the question with any degree of certainty. The answers you've come up with are based on assumptions and not evidence. The fact that the Bible doesn't discuss something doesn't mean it could not exist. As far as I know, the Bible never mentions hydrangeas. But they do exist. If you had never seen a hydrangea because you grew up in someplace like Egypt, is it reasonable to assume that hydrangeas don't exist because you've never seen one and the Bible never mentions it? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. Also, if you didn't believe in hydrangeas and then one day saw one, would that shake your faith in the Bible? Of course not, because again the Bible is not Encyclopedia Brittanica (or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, for that matter).
Having said that, you do seem to have altered your stance a bit. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not. Stance #1 was "there is definitely not life out there." Your new stance seems to be "we don't need to know if there's life out there." Your new stance seems more reasonable to me (most of it, anyway). As a Christian, I agree with you about the importance of salvation. Everything starts there. But life doesn't end there. People have interests, hobbies, jobs, etc. And "everything we NEED to know is in the bible"? This statement sounds like you're not even thinking about what you're saying. The Bible didn't cover mathematics, economics, pharmaceuticals.... In the real world, we do need to know things that are not found in the Bible. That in no way diminishes the importance of the Bible itself.
And this brings us back to the fact that the Bible was written so long ago and we simply cannot ignore that. However, I think the problem with many Christians is, as Emile put it, their egos. I have heard people say again and again that they aren't part of a "religion" but are instead in a "relationship" with god. They are so focused on saving themselves spiritually (probably because they are either afraid or they don't fully believe what they think they should believe) that they forget about "saving" people here, physically. Now, I'm not saying all Christians are like this... obviously, some are very compassionate and some even devote their lives to helping others physically.
If god created all of us with interests, likes, dislikes... then why would he have created me with an interest in science, outer space, and the environment? Or is that just Satan trying to get my mind off of the "good" things? I dislike how Christianity (the religion today) encourages people not to question the words of the Bible and not to look past the fact that we are only on earth for a short time. I have heard my own mother say time and again that she can't wait to die and just get this life over with so she can be in heaven. That breaks my heart. What a waste of life if you are just going to throw it away for a place you aren't even sure exists...
relationship is what Christ is all about. Why do you think catholicism is so corrupt? because they are a religion. Why are christians so fervent about their God? because it is a relationship. Rituals, and rules do induce relationship. God says i will be a father... we are a family, brothers and sisters all equalling relationship. As God speaks to us we have relationship. Love brings relationship. It is a relationship and that is not an ego thing.
As per saving people here. Everybody has different gifts. Some are called to be missionaries, others will pastor churches, some will this and that. Jehovahs witness will knock on your door but that is not a correct way to save people. We go where we are lead and we put out small words here and there and God brings the increase, therefore our egos are not affected. If you do not hear lovey dovey words occasionally remember the person that is being spoken too.
Did God create people with likes and dislikes or are these just things that happen along the course of experience. In a sense most things are distractions from "good things" but we cannot always just pray and study the bible, we need variety - hopefully of a pure kind. God wants us to enjoy this life and not throw it away, relationship with Him is worth living for.
Catholicism is corrupt because it is a religion? I suggest you google the definition of "religion" while you're looking up "humble." I don't know which Christian started making religion out to be a negative word within his or her concept of the belief system.... But religion is just that- a set of beliefs that one adheres to, whether personal or set by a group that one follows. Now what about that makes "religion" automatically corrupt?
As a former Christian, I will say that the church does a lot of brainwashing, and that may be where your confusion comes from and why you seem to be coming up with the same defensive answers for literally everything we bring up. I understand that you believe you have a relationship with god. I once felt the same way. I believed that every feeling that I had about something was either god or Satan trying to influence me in my decisions. Obviously, if it was considered "good" by my religion, it was "god" spreading to me. If it was considered "wrong" or "worldly" then it was Satan. The problem with this is that we forget that we all have a built-in conscience that tells us whether something seems right our wrong, and this is why our consciences sometimes coincide with what we believe is "god" telling us something is right or wrong. When I was a Christian I remember tring so hard to great god speak to me and I never heard him. I just made my own thoughts into what I thought was god telling me to do or not do something. these thoughts were, of course, influenced by my experiences and my own will to do our not do something.
yes all religions are corrupt. Christianity is the only way that is not based on a set of rules. As i have frequently mentioned, it is easy to say what christians should do; not eating fish on friday is not one of them. Catechism is not one of them. Baptizing babies is not one of them. Praying to dead saints is not one of them. etc...
Chrisianity is God teaching his children, like a father does their child. As God reveals sin and self, He thereby urges his children to deal with them, is the way christianity works. We do not open the book and start to write a check list of do's and dont's. We let God motivate us, not people and not church rules. In application a christian can smoke cigarettes until God asks him to quit. He ought not to read "the body is the temple of the holy spirit" and immediately throw the cigs out the window.
You see properly defined: religion is man working toward God
christianity properly defined is God working toward man.
recall the veil was torn from top to bottom. God to man.
christianity is Gods work in us, not our work for God.
I appreciate that you are new here but please don't think you understand all my posts in so short a time. Many have been here longer and still don't get it.
Chrisitanity is: saved by faith through grace, it is a work of God. Once we start to work (do things under our own strength) for God we eliminate grace.
That's funny. Has it ever occurred to you that the fact so many disagree (whether new to the site, or old) has more to do with your inability to understand than anyone else's? You might ponder on the fact that no one in an asylum thinks they are crazy.
First of all, I never said the word "rules" in my post. I defined religion as a set of BELIEFS that one adheres to.
Second, the fact that I am "new" to these forums does not make it any more difficult to "understand" your posts as YOU wish me to understand them. Evidence of this: Emile. I am not new to the concept of religion, especially Christianity. I was raised as a Christian from the time I was born. I left the religion by way of my own reasoning and logic. I have always been a skeptic when it comes to many things, not just religion. I question EVERYTHING before I believe it. It is my experience that Christians are discouraged from doing this. There is always an excuse for when "God" doesn't make sense, or the Bible doesn't adhere to a certain situation. Many people say that God works in mysterious ways. Others say he has a plan, and it is beyond our understanding, though it is a perfect plan. These, in my opinion, are excuses, and are a tactic of the Christian religion to brainwash people. Sadly, it seems to work. When questions arise, when aspects of the Christian faith don't make sense, believers resort to these excuses and dismiss their questions, causing logic and reasoning to be pushed aside.
As for Christianity not being based on rules? That is a load of bullshit. If I remember correctly, God gave his people (the Israelites) the ten commandments. Now, are not commandments rules? I agree that one shouldn't make a checklist of right or wrong behaviors, but this morality doesn't come from god, it comes from reasoning- using your brain and your emotional connections with the world around you. Case in point: atheists develop their own set of morals outside of any god. They can show compassion, love, and selflessness just as well, if not better, than any Christian.
You know, now that I come to think of it... why did God pick "favorites" in the Bible? Did you ever consider maybe the Israelites' God was no different from the gods of other religions of the time, all around the world? Perhaps he is just a creation of the Israelites just like the Greek gods, or the "false idols" that other people worshipped at the time the Bible was written. Why should you believe in this Israelite god?
"They are so focused on saving themselves spiritually (probably because they are either afraid or they don't fully believe what they think they should believe) that they forget about "saving" people here, physically"
I personally don't live in fear as a Christian. If a Christian is walking around afraid all the time then he/she has misunderstood something, I think. I agree with you that there are churches that are very fear based. You seem to have bumped into one of those. It usually comes from the guy in the pulpit, not from the Bible itself. That's my opinion.
About throwing away your life over a place you aren't even sure exists, it seems like your mother probably wouldn't say it that way. I know I wouldn't. I'm positive it exists--not simply because a 2000 year old book said it exists. That would be dumb, unless I know something significant about that book. There would have to be significant evidence outside of that book that shows me that the book is trustworthy. If Christianity were simply looking into a dark pit where you can't see the bottom and just flinging yourself into it and crossing your fingers then I would say it's probably not a good investment. Some think that's what Christianity is, but I say this is a misunderstanding as well. Like I've said before, the evidence exists. I've heard lots of good arguments about how messed up Christians can be and how crazy their stories sound. It's true. We're all a little messed up. And sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
the bible doesn't say to quit smoking or not jump out in front of cars either but common sense does indicate this. So using spiritual common sense is also a good tool, as to whether kangaroos hop in australia is neither point for this or that.
there is no life out there and we do not need to know... represents my view that, there is no life out there and we do not need to spend money and time and research to find this out. My stance is not wavered. All the money spent on nasa stuff is wasted in comparison to what it could be used for.
When i said everything we NEED to know, i explained that with "Salvation based", math, economics, pharma, my hobby, etc.. are not salvation based. We NEED to know about SALVATION it is the most important and this is what the bible is completely concerned with. What is salvation, what our conduct to be like afterward, what is God like? Who is my neighbor, etc.. how does lack of faith hurt my walk.. the list goes on, but it is all around salvation. I capitalized NEED because NEED is an important word in that sentence.
You have every right to say unequivocally that something does not exist without a shred of evidence to back you up. I guess some Christians do this all the time. You're just propegating that further. Maybe I'll write a hub about that. At least now I understand where you're coming from. I'm bored now and moving on. Have fun.
So let me think
A person involved in God has no right to contemplate matters, read between the lines or interpret anything that is not blatantly written in the bible.
I am sorry my friend but it is the accumulated knowledge of scripture that brings one into a position of being able to do exactly this.
Where did cain get his wife. I have 2 theories on that. How many do you have?
Do you think eve let one of her daughters go running off with the worlds first murderer? I doubt it, besides scripture says he found a wife somewhere else.. so where did she come from? You are going to have to think outside the box on this one.
Imagination is a tool that allows one to go beyond and yet keep context within the correct parameters of the bible. Imagination is something that literalists lack.
But anyway what do you want me to back up with evidence? Something about the hubble not finding another planet like ours? Perhaps the planets that are all around us being not like us at all? The distance being unreachable to those far off planets? The fact that every rocket that shoots up through our atmosphere punches holes in it and depletes the ozone layer probably states that we should not be out there at all. Or that God hasn't enough to do with just our one planet? I figure i made a good call. Sorry to have gotten you so riled up over it.
God loves to create lifeless planets and space junk?
What a waste.
sorry about that.
I don't have a particular relationship with the stars and planets. Its nice to look at but whatever.
maybe i will upgrade the word junk to stuff.
Other christians may indeed love to gaze at these things, but i do not. I don't hate it, and i do think its amazing, however, I have other things at present to contemplate and yes, the cosmos is on a back burner.
Heaven and hell are in our minds. There may be rich cultural traditions of describing these places, but when push comes to shove, they are what our minds tell us they are.
I had a dream one night of the emptiest place I'd ever known, and I think it was hell. Not fire and brimstone, but total and complete emptiness. There were not a person, not light, not a sound, not a tactile feeling, not a taste, only my mind in a void. Complete and total absence of anything experienced in life. Total and utter isolation.
Perhaps each person carries his own heaven and hell within him, where they are revealed only in dreams.
It is so nice when peoples minds override in minutes what thousands of years and relationship with God strived to create. I suppose if some man who casted lots and won and became supreme god over all the other god contendants and claimed the sky and threw lightning bolts at people and then had affairs... oh wait.. this reminds me of something.. Monty python? no but a good guess.. oh wait, zeus, yes of course.
and then of course those who complain when mr. campers proclaimed the final day of the earth and said what a nincompoop now all of a sudden jump on some persons weird dream and completely agrees.
This is why God wrote a book people
I am not normally rude to people...But you are the most dense person I have ever met (to date). You have no idea what you are even talking about. You have been proven wrong on these forums at every turn, by believers and non-believers alike. What does my thinking that Heaven and Hell are figments of the mind and not real places have anything to do with Greek Myths?
the last line said it all
and the lines prior backed it up.
and to summarize
that false doctrine mentioned which you 'competely agreed with' is likened unto a person who says..
"some man caste lots and won and became supreme god over all the other god contenders and claimed the sky and threw lightning bolts at people and then had affairs" - which you quickly recognized as greek myth - are the of the same substance.
The last line states.. that being coerced by these sort of things is exactly why God wrote a book.
So in a sense it doesn't have anything to do with greek myths except that a parallel example was made to form a comparison. We do not carry heaven and hell around with us, that is just an expression, as empty and void as the greek myths. We have good times and bad but to compare them to heaven and hell is just wrong.
hope that helps thin out your perceived fogginess.
and BTW .. speaking of fog... which posts did i get proven wrong on? which was your personal favorite?
The part I agreed with, is that Heaven and Hell are things of the mind and not real places. Me and Earnest were talking about Myths. Discussing certian topics does not mean that I believe in those topics. Neither one of us believe or follow myths. And just because you belief something to be truth (without proof) doesn't mean it isn't a myth to others.
And as far as you being proven wrong on many occasion...Pick a post...
I respect the fact that you have your beliefs...But remember they are your beliefs...and that doesn't make them true for anyone else but yourself.
And God never wrote a book...Only men have wrote books.
I have one thing to left in this forum and that is GOD is indeed REAL no questions about that... So does the heaven and hell. They were created to judge the living and the dead, whether they lived holy or unholy while on earth. If they lived righteously, and that is with unwavering faith that God is God, the Almighty, the faithful, King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, he or she will go straight to heaven after his death. But to those people who do not believe in God, they will be cast to the lake of fire...that is called the "hell" in layman's term.. there is no such word as "hell" in the bible. If you take a while and read, you'll find out the burning brimstone and sulfur, the lake of fire, the bottomless pit or abyss..
All the things the Bible says are true -- it is the basis of truth for reproach and for correction.
You may not agree but I don't believe you go to heaven or hell, when you die, you rot away and go back to dust and we will all be raised at the last day when Jesus returns to set up God's kingdom on earth
Some Greek guy once said (before the Bible was ever written) that if you drop a bronze anvil from heaven it would fall for seven days before it reached the surface of the Earth. He went on to say: if you dropped the anvil from the surface of the Earth it would fall for seven days before it reached the 'Pit of Tartarus'. This 'Pit' was mentioned by St Peter in one of his epistles. It is also the pit referred to in Revelation. To the ancient Greeks it was where the storm demons: which cause ships at sea to sink, were imprisoned. This pit was situated: in Greek myth, directly under Hades - the abode of the dead. They also believed that the entrance to this underworld was beneath a lake in Italy (can't think of the name offhand). Orpheus took this route to try and bring back his dead wife. The writers of the New Testament all spoke Greek as a first language. This is why the Christian concept of 'Hell' so closely resembles the Greek mythology of Hades and the Pit of Tatarus. It is - in fact - a direct copy.
To understand where the writers of Bible thought that 'Heaven' was situated we need a little ancient cosmogenical theory. The Earth sits at the center of creation. Then you have a series of concentric spheres surrounding the Earth. Each one of these spheres constituted the 'sky' or 'heaven' of one of the planets or sun. So you have the Earth at the center: then - travelling outward - you get the 'sky' of the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Outside of the spheres that contained the planets (planet comes from the Greek: it means 'wanderer') you get the sphere of the fixed stars (they were referred to as 'fixed' because they didn't wander around like the planets). This is where God affixed the stars (tiny lights) in the firmament. In the Bible there are two instances: the story of Jacob's ladder and Revelation, where mere mortals are allowed to pass through doorways in this firmament and so enter the realm of God and all his angels.
We now know that all this cosmology is pure claptrap. In olden times, though, this cosmology was 'The Word of Allmighty God' so challenging it with the Truth - for instance - would have gotten you burned alive at the stake.
And so endeth this lesson.
Heaven and Hell don't exist - they were made up in an attempt to influence behavior.
by davidkaluge4 years ago
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by awesome775 years ago
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