It makes us look at ourselves in God's light and that picture is not a pretty one....
it offends because it is just that a book written by humans who then try to sell it as the word of god in a world it is not suited to a story of half truths and unfinished tales
But if it were me and someone tooted all about the toothfairy and his/her magic powers I would just laugh it off and walk the other way ,but not so for a few on here.
It really bothers them that someone talks about their experience with Christ!
Too much a case of the man/lady doeth protest too much
If God doesnt matter ,then why does the mention of his name get attention and have such an effect on emotions!
You're right! They'd be lost if someone took away their (literal and figurative) protest signs.....
Sadly, they're lost anyway.
I remember those days when I was lost, don't you Eaglekiwi? Not something I ever want to experience again! Thank God for His Son!!
Absolutely I remember those days of being lost! and if anyone offered to pray for me ,my attitude was so immature and unecessarily indignant (why did it look like I needed prayer)
All I can say is thank God for his mercy,patience and everlasting love!!
Funny thing that!
I remember when I was a bible toting religious spouting hypocrite with a lousy education.
I'm thankful for the change.
In the meantime...
I'm not interested in when you were a "Bible-totin'" etc....
Do you remember a time when you were a Christian, though? That's the real question.
I remember also Brenda. Accepting Christ as my personal Lord and Savior is the best thing ever happened to me.
That would be the biblical god in these threads.
Why don't we let it speak from "the word of god" itself?
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
This accounts for the offensive tag!
You are truly an Old Testament scholar.... are you sure that you aren't a disillusioned preacher? There is no way an Biblically uneducated person would even be able to find some of the scriptures that you find. Some believers don't even know that Zephaniah is in the Bible....
Anyway, can you cite anything in the New Testament that substantiates your arguments??? Anything at all??? Anything?????
I'm just curious as to why many Christians ignore many passages in the old testament. I understand that christians go by christ's teachings but the OT it still the word of god isn't it? I'm wondering if you or someone else can explain why this is.
The OT is the Word of God. The OT was written to show the rules and regulations that man would have to abide by in order to reach God of their own accord; that is by their own actions. It is was only written to the chosen people of God, the seed of Abraham through his son Issac.
Through the OT, mankind is shown that there is absolutely no way that any man can keep all of the ordinances, sacrifices, and other requirements necessary to connect to God. It is just impossible!
Throughout the OT, we see types and examples of the promised redemption. ie, sacrificing or the first born animals, deliverance from sin through the laying hands on the scapegoat and sending it from among the people, etc.
When Jesus came, he too was born under the Law or OT. His message was radical because it did not defy the OT so much as bring an understanding of the "actions" of the OT. He is the promised redeemer. He not only redeems from the sin that caused the initial separation of mankind from God through the sin of Adam and Eve, but He redeems from the ordinances of the Law.
Prior to Jesus redemption the Gentile or the non-Jew was not included. But, Jesus life, death and resurrection opened the path for all mankind to connect to God.
The Christian receives the same blessings as were promised to the chosen people. Through Jesus redemption, there is no longer a separation, he made Jew, Greek, and everyone else as one group, sons and daughters of God.
The Law was not to sons and daughters, it was to bondsmen. But it is still the Word of God. It is not to be taken lightly. Unfortunately some of my brothers and sisters look down at the law, but that is only in their lack of knowledge.
The scriptures say that Jesus fulfilled the Law, that means that the Law is still to be respected. Jesus didn't spit on the Law and neither should we. But, we are redeemed from the Law through Him.
Think of it like this, an old contract and a new contract. The new comes into effect only upon the finalization of the old. All of the terms of the old must be meant prior to any of the provisions of the new can be realized.
Under the new contract, things are drastically different, so we wait until it kicks in. None of us so far can meet all of the old contracts term consistently. Finally, here comes the one who originated the contract He alone can meet its terms. So, He does and when He does, He ushers in the provisions of the new contract.
If you want to live under the restraints of the old contract, you can, but why? If you choose to live that way, you would only be doing it in your own strength and, you would miserably fail.
When we come to Jesus, we are in Him and He is in us. God the Father sees us as having met all of the requirements to connect to Him, because, He sees us through the actions of Jesus Christ. Praise the Lord!
The OT brought us to faith by making us aware that no man can reach God alone. We needed the mediator, Christ Jesus who is Lord over all the Earth.
The final issue is this... the OT is a covenant of works, the NT is a covenant of faith...
Here are some scriptures of confirmation...
Gal 3:10- 29
But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law. So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life”. This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised* Holy Spirit through faith.
Dear brothers and sisters,* here's an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. God gave the promises to Abraham and his child.* And notice that the Scripture doesn't say "to his children,*" as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says "to his child"—and that, of course, means Christ.
This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God's promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.
Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham. Is there a conflict, then, between God's law and God's promises?* Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God's promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ. Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. For you are all children* of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
There is no longer Jew or Gentile,* slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children* of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God's promise to Abraham belongs to you.
Hope this helps...
The common Catholic interpretation is generally that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but written by men in the context and culture of their time. Thus, as written it is not infallible in its details. As such the NT is written by and for people closer to our current culture than OT.
Leslie I have studied the bible and many religions formally and in great detail, but it was many years ago.These days I cut and paste when my memory is not complete. I used to be able to just reel it off no matter where it was in the good book, and the same with the other muslim tome, but only in English.
The new testament's biggest problem is the attempts at separation from the old testament by many who profess to be believers in "the word".
"The word" they read is not the word on it's own at all, it is an integral part of the rest of the bible and cannot be selectively excluded to make it work for threatening non believers then denied as outmoded by the covenant when it suits.
The NT, is full of contradictions that I will happily list if you like, but I have been here 3 years, and must have done so at least a dozen times already.
Thanks for the polite response. .
I thought as much.... My sister was an avid studier of world religions, but like you, she could only see through her intellect. Her heart never did soften toward God that I am aware of.
You are right to say that some believers manipulate the Word to justify their statements, but, you find that in every area of life. The more that is known of God, the more revelation of the Word of God one has. It seems to me that the less you know, the more you judge. (including myself).
Out of context, you may find the NT contradictory, but, in context, it makes perfect sense.
And, I always plan to be polite to you because no matter what our disagreements, there is a foundational love for mankind and sincerity in you that bubbles out even when you are fussing.
I am the last person to see things through only my intellect! According to my psychological profile and from those who know me, I operate out of feeling and guided intuition more than my intellect, at least for the last 10 years.
I got old and my brain fell off!
I don't tolerate what I know to be conjecture at best being paraded as truth readily, but that is knowledge based, and no good knowledge about religiosity comes from just the intellect.
If I were you I would not be writing your sister off just yet!
Still waiting for him to make a reappearance. Meanwhile back to the actually having to do the work of men.
It seems to be by choice. We can choose to let things affect us or not. Giving a book such power doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
This brings to mind a 60 minutes documentary I watched in my early twenties. A young 16 year old had shot half his head off in an attempt to kill himself. He failed but a friend of his did not. Apart from having only half a head he was ok. His parents were trying to sue the music band they claim influenced his decision. Can't remember the name of the band. It was their artistic outlet (or at least the writers).
My point being. The band had millions of fans and not all of them tried to kill themselves. The boy chose to listen to the music over and over again and the boy allowed himself to be influenced by the messages. The parents chose to allow him to listen to the music. The boy chose to take his own life.
The band is not responsible for how one chooses to be influenced by their music, nor are they responsible for the results those choices produce.
Same with the bible.
Judas Priest was the band. There is nothing satanic or evil about judas priest. The kids' parents failed to see their childrens' depression and instead of taking responsibility they insisted there was backward messages in the music. It was never proven and they lost their case.
Yes many people listened to judas priest and didn't kill themselves because there is nothing in their music to make one do it. The band consisted of a few kids who played metal and got a record deal. Did they have satanic powers to brainwash fans? Get real.
People don't like to be told what to do. People want to be the god of there own life and don't realize that God almighty is the one sustaining there life and giving them the very oxygen they breath.
People have been led wrongly by so called godly people, people have been mistreated by church people- and others in this world.
The offended people have a lack of knowledge and do not understand the love, grace and mercy of God in Christ Jesus.
They do not know the difference in condemnation and conviction- even those trying to share the love of God do not understand it is all based on love and not the pointing of the finger- we can't point the finger and say you sinner- how could we? We all have sinned- ALL!
But we can lovingly, in the right spirit, with the right motive share God's word and then God can step in and convict them not condemn. Conviction says " all yeah I do that"- "God help me to not do this to honor you and have blessings in my life" Now condemnation says something like this " you are horrible, worthless, evil, and etc"
Sharing the word of God is supposed to produce life- and the desire to do better- to do good- so we can have a good life that isn't filled with all the chaos that all sin brings into our lives- this is where Jesus steps in to cleanse us- restore us and love us.
Which one of the hundreds of gods would this be?
The psychotic despot of the bible? ... or the despicable psychopath of the quoran perhaps?
or more like frustration from living in a world that is abusive, terrible and mean and being without the God of the bible.
I think the band was either metallica or black sabbath, but don't quote me on that both ring only a tiny bell.
It is no more or less offensive than any other book filled with hate speech.
Yah some of the greek myths are seriously weirded out and have in themselves senseless bloodshedding and violence, wars and murders. I don't understand how anyone could entertain them as being representative of any good lessons or of Gods.
I would agree with you there. That's probably why no one worships those gods anymore and why they're just considered myths. That seems to be what history has shown us, one religion keeps coming along to supplant another. Soon, Christianity will also be singing it's swan song.
I doubt that seeing it has thrive century after century..
After 6,000 yrs of Gods working with His people and after God sacrificing His son for the redemption of all mankind, there will not be a swan song sung.
I have no reason to believe that throwing some gods nuts into the ocean produced aphrodite, but i can follow a story about a creator who parted the sea to redeem his people from slavery. I mean the bible sounds like complete sanity compared to the inventions of mans imaginations.
Still got Zeus up your nose brothery?
You seem to be showing the similarities to your own god rather than dealing with other myths as myths.
obviously the romans myths are myths. They are ridiculous myths. The bible tells so much better stories over a far longer period of time - 4,000 yrs - and being penned by 40 different people the consistency is amazingly accurate. It is as if a God inspired it.
When we place credence to human imagination we might as well all look for stupid badges.
And i always marvel at how many gods are needed to replace the ONE living God.
Yes, it's completely sane. Unless of course you consider the parts about...
- a supernatural being impregnating a virgin with himself so he could later sacrifice himself to himself to prove how much he loved the world, which he had already taken a do-over on with the flood.
-a giant boat being built by a very old man and filled with pairs of all the animals that ever were.
-talking donkeys and snakes
-Jesus (all-powerful god) could not think of a better way to vanquish evil spirits than to move them from man into a herd of pigs and then kill the pigs by sending them over a cliff.
-The loving god sending bears to tear apart children for making fun of Elisha's bald head.
And so on...and so on.
Sorry, but to non-Christians these stories are no more believable than the stories of other religions- past or present.
When you discover the sane answers to these christian 001 questions then maybe you will have a better respect for what you so foolishly mock.
God is spirit so God would have to incarnate himself to break the virginity to incarnate himself... spirit is not flesh. God does not have a penis to insert. A virgin birth of an incarnated God makes perfect sense.
The sacrifice of jesus is so appropriate, if you don't already know this, well, i will not comment as to how little you know.
The ark story, local animals by genus not type. Local flood. This very old man had the help of his family and longevity didn't make him that old. With God even the old can build boats.
Talking donkeys - ventriloquism - talking snakes - too deep for you but it wasn't a talking snake.
There are no evil spirits that were vanquished into pigs. Again too deep for you.
This story is comparable to the blaspheme against the holy ghost that jesus spoke of. In those days children who had no parents or were rebellious often ended up in gangs. There was more to the intent of this gang of 42. Little translated means unimportant, children means up to age 20 but commonly 13. 42 punk kids can be a real threat to one person as they were probably a group of robbers.
When you become more versed in bible knowledge feel free to comment in a sane way
When you discover the sane answers to these christian 001 questions then
maybe you will have a better respect for what you so foolishly mock.
**I love an attack on my intelligence right out of the gate...classy.
is spirit so God would have to incarnate himself to break the virginity
to incarnate himself... spirit is not flesh. God does not have a penis
to insert. A virgin birth of an incarnated God makes perfect sense.
The sacrifice of jesus is so appropriate, if you don't already know this, well, i will not comment as to how little you know.
**OH, thanks for clearing that up. I thought that since God was all-powerful, he could just like, squeeze his eyes real tight and take the shape of flesh, if he wanted to. And if he wanted to forgive humanity, his human torture & blood sacrifice to himself wouldn't be all that necessary. He could just...forgive. And yes, I've heard all the explanations as to why the sacrifice was needed. It does not and will not sound reasonable to a great many people, especially those of us who are only of average intelligence and 'depth' and not so brilliant as you.
ark story, local animals by genus not type. Local flood. This very old
man had the help of his family and longevity didn't make him that old.
With God even the old can build boats.
**I'm sorry, even if its just 'genus', it doesn't sound sane. Just a local flood, just somewhere in Mesopotamia?- this is one of my favorites and of course we could go round-and-round about the words that imply global or local. You aren't automatically correct because you have declared it to be so. And did god really screw up so badly that he needed a do-over on his creation? And wouldn't he have known that this was going to happen anyway? The people were condemned before they were created, right? Sane- nope.
Talking donkeys - ventriloquism - talking snakes - too deep for you but it wasn't a talking snake.
**Uh, huh, ok. Ventriloquism, of course. Talking snake/serpent/satan, whatever. Yep, good answer- clearly I'm too shallow or stupid to get it.
There are no evil spirits that were vanquished into pigs. Again too deep for you.
**No, I've heard the 'explanations' that the pigs' drownings were representative of baptism, that the pigs had to be 'sacrificed' so that no one would doubt that there were really demons and Jesus was really god, that they were 'unclean' and didn't matter, that the people who owned the pigs were Greeks or some other non-chosen race ... None of these make this any more likely to me.
story is comparable to the blaspheme against the holy ghost that jesus
spoke of. In those days children who had no parents or were rebellious
often ended up in gangs. There was more to the intent of this gang of
42. Little translated means unimportant, children means up to age 20 but
commonly 13. 42 punk kids can be a real threat to one person as they
were probably a group of robbers.
**Yes, the only solution was to kill them. Although this shouldn't be a surprise as god was not opposed to killing babies, children or adults at times wiping out entire populations. This 'sane' bible of a loving god proves that over and over.
When you become more versed in bible knowledge feel free to comment in a sane way
**Um, just because I don't agree with your beliefs or interpretations or particular brand of apologetics doesn't give you the power to decide whether I am 'versed' or not or should comment or not. These explanations are created by humans to make the stories 'fit' with what they believe to be just and acceptable.
Oh, and I don't need your permission to 'feel free' to do anything. Thank you.
Do you not understand that your interpretations are just that- interpretations? I ask simple questions on purpose to show how this book reads just like other myth stories. There are many possible ways to interpret all of these stories from the literal to the most elaborate apologetic explanations.
Perhaps if god wrote or inspired a book that was to be the guide for life and then created humans that were still not smart or deep enough to understand thousands of years later, that is a god-fail afterall.
I love that the stories that people like are to be taken literally (virgin birth, resurrection) and the ones that don't make sense the way they are written are parables, allegories or fables or require a deep philosophical interpretation.
Declaring yourself morally, intellectually or philosophically superior doesn't make it so and it doesn't make you right.
I am sorry you were so offended, but your response to me was rather in the same tone as i replied to you. Indeed the questions and your second post answers show limited understanding, if any and this is just the truth.
I get a little ticked off when a good answer is given and someone comes along and throws a pile of crap statement about how its just my interpretation. We have to remember to keep all interpretations within a biblical framework, so really there are not all that many interpretations that are correct. And don't forget the spirit of God which enlightens his people and helps them to interpret.
Perhaps the story about the bald head fails to imply to you the seriousness of the prophets situation, a gang of underage robbers, 40 of them.. but oh well.. you see this is the problem with people who just read the bible, they fail to identify with it. They do not look into the story to see what it is actually saying and invariably they come with things like you say.
Now obviously you don't like to be enlightened because your mind seems to be pretty much made up, but any serious person would pay attention to when things are explained to them. You say that i just declare myself morally, intellectually and philosophically superior to you... i did not project any morals and clearly i did not philosophize as to intellectually, well, i just study one thing - scripture, that does not make me an intellectual, just informed on the topic you seem to be nonchalant about. And having studied the scriptures and still do study the scriptures i am entitled to be right, that is what study is all about, finding the answers.
It appears to didn't need my permission to feel free about responding in a sane way and its too bad that no matter what anyone says, none of it makes sense to you. hmmm.
Resurrection is sooooooooooo true! It is referred to more often literally through the entire NT, than in parable. Allegations of resurrection can be found in the OT also. If there is no resurrection then all is in vain.
The same thing you say is the same thing others say about God and your religion, just like every other believer from the beginning of time says about everyone else beliefs.
Believing throwing gods nuts into the ocean or parting it, neither are sane to believe they actually occurred.
It may be "as if" a God inspired the Bible. But, to use your reasoning that the Bible tells so much better stories over a longer period of time written by 40 different people, to opine that the Roman gods were myths is just personal preferential favor on your part and nothing more.
have you read those myths. They are ludicrous! No where comparable to the bible. The bible is ingenious, the myths are just stupid. The bible has purpose, the myths have no purpose. The bible is obviously God written, the myths are obviously mans imagination.
The Bible acts like a mirror, exposing our own faults and shortcomings. We are offended when we don't think we have any, or are not ready to deal with them.
Well, I find it personally offensive that Christians believe in all loving God and constantly claim the Bible describes it. Yet in the Bible God condones slavery, kills innocent children and plans to ultimately burn the vast majority of humanity in a lake of fire. It's offensive to everyone's intelligence to claim that THAT God is loving.
If you would hear all of what we say, you would not be offended. Everyone uses the Old Testament to claim that God is "unloving".
It is offensive to Christians to listen to un-believers harp on the judgements of God and never acknowledge or even inquire why those judgements are/were in place.
And, most of you [I speak in general not specific terms], don't even care to hear it.
Ironically, neither your beliefs or my attitudes have any bearing on the love of God for His creation... Jesus loves us in spite of us.....
"never acknowledge or even inquire why those judgements are/were in place."
Probably because there is no context in which murdering innocent children is moral. I'm well aware of the JUDGEMENT context in the Old Testament, just makes him more of an a**hole.
Why are you cussing?... It really is not that kind of party... You really owe all of us an apology. There are some curt things said in these forums, but we all respect the person of one another even if we do not agree with one another regarding our beliefs.
I am thoroughly offended that you think so little of your fellow-hubbers. If you don't want to respect yourself, that is fine, but you need to respect us.
It is not cute...
I think it's the self righteous Christians who copy scripture word for word on 6 out of 10 hubs on a writer's site, and try to shove their religion down our throats. This is not original content, it's the same stuff over and over again, we've all heard it before, and I have not seen one hub with a different view on a scripture. Well, one where a woman pointed out the few women who were treated like less than dirt in the Bible. This is a Writer's site, not a pulpit. Tell your stories where people want to hear them. You are not being held to the same original content rules as nonChristains.
Many cannot think for themselves any longer. It's been done for them ever since they began going to Sunday school as a child. They cannot help it.
we tell our stories to all. The fact that you are disgruntled is your own doing. Stop reading them and stop causing war. What you perceive as shoving religion down your throat can easily be stopped by you exercising control over what you read and then exercising further control over your opinions. We have heard all your opinions before. You are in a christian forum so why can't we publish our viewpoints again. Small errors in thought like this make small posts with smaller opinions.
And, there is a context for murdering "innocent" children. Do you really think that those children were lost for eternity? That doesn't even make sense? They were killed because they would have grown up and taken vengeance on the children of Israel. So, to stop all of that, you wipe everybody...
God's word tells us that those who died before Christ came were judged by their level righteousness in the sight of God. Pre-Jesus, people only knew what they knew. Their righteousness was subject to their understanding of their culture... so, God, being infinitely smarter and more compassionate that any of us reserved a standard that He abides by to judge those in question.
Its amazing to me how people think that because love is in the picture there can never be any serious repercussions. Love wears many hats and i think God extinguishing the unbelievers is very merciful and quite just. Our home is our home, Gods home is Gods home and He has a right to protect it and make it safe and appealing to His people.
Is not your home governed the same way? But for some reason God has to push all that He is aside just to accomodate some whiney self willed unbelievers who even go as far to say that the owner of the home has no right over the home because He does not exist. Try walking down the street and entering somebodies home you do not know, but God has to be different and give you all you want, when all He wants is belief.
In my opinion the Bible offends so many as their lack of a relationship with the God who inspired its writing leaves them intolerant. It is offensive because the truth is a hard pill to swallow for some. It is offensive as people prefer like Lucifer to be in charge of their own life and don't want to answer to anyone else. Otherwise they would just look at it as another book on the shelf and ignore it.
The Bible offends because people sin and don't want to be told they are going to hell for it. Some are ardent non-believers, which makes Jesus a stumbling block for many. He tells the truth, which is offensive to those that do not want to hear the truth.
LMAO, it's not the Bible that bothers me when it says that sinners go to Hell. It is the person that is carrying the bible. It is the person who is no better than me and knows nothing about the state of my soul that offends me. It is the zealots that think that their interpretation of the bible should control who I love, what I do with my body, what I teach my children, or how I should worship. It is the zealots that send my son's friends into war so the government can buy them a brand new wood box. The same zealots that are likely to protest their funeral.
In short, I don't mind Jesus judging me and when I meet him he can pass judgement on me. No one in this thread is Jesus and no Christian I've ever met was worthy to judge me.
Go, baby, GO! Melissa, you took the words right out of my mouth!
You are right as far as no Christian has the right to judge you and whoa to those that do for the Word says " judge not lest ye be judged" we all have been given the right by God our creator to choose our own way and no one has the right to say otherwise. Just suppose those Bible toting people happen to care about you and want to show you the live if God? Just something to think about. There are plenty of hate mongrrs out there in the name if Christianity but I tell you God does not them as He us nit a God of hate.
Here is just a few passages that will explain why I find the bible offensive. I cant wait the Christians' excuses for these:
Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property
Bible views on women:
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Here's something fun. According to the bible, the world is flat:
Again the devil took (Jesus) to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
And the Earth doesn't move either:
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. (KJV)
removed... as in to slip or stray, fall.
for ever translates: eon; an eon is a length of time with a variable ending.
for ever and ever is a longer period of time.
Ephesians 5:22-24 (should have read the next verse)
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, LOVE your wives, even AS Christ also LOVED the CHURCH, and GAVE HIMSELF for it;
So i will ask you how a man will rule his wife in so much love, the same love that christ had for the church? That's a lot of love, baby, so much love in fact that men are to love their wives and GIVE ourselves for her - die for her in essence.
1 peter 2:18 slaves should read servants - maids, butlers, farm workers, hired wage earners. Sounds more like people who are hired to do a job should do it well.
i don't know what version you are using but the king james uses a word called bondservant which is a servant who has bonded to his employer and has chosen to remain with him, willingly, because obviously the employer treats him well.
Get a real bible please.
I didn't realize there were fake bibles. When you say get a real bible you actually mean an edited version.
The bible says nothing about employees. It says slaves. Slaves are not employees. What do you think the civil war was about? The southern slave owners believed slavery was perfectly ok because the bible says it is. Now tell me why god couldn't just say employees? Imagine the lives that could have been saved if only god said what he meant!
You cannot equate the southern slave owners or the civil war to what God purposed in the bible, in asia, 4,000 yrs ago. I told you that slaves, servants, employees were treated well, that right there should have nullified your response. It doesn't matter what the southern slave owners thought, they did not treat their slaves the same way as the hebrews did to their slaves. Do you really think Gods people would treat people unfairly?
"person employed," 1850, mainly in U.S. use, from employ + -ee. The word employee didnt exist until 1850, the bible was translated in 1611.
Out of 15 bible translations, 6 use slaves, 7 use bondmen, 2 use servants.
But the translated word doesn't matter it how God told them to treat them. All slaves were freed every jubilee year and returned to their homes. The southern slavers did not do that, they were just interested in makin a buck.
Imagine the lives that wouldn't have been ruined if the southern slavers had obeyed Gods rules on how to treat their servants.
If they were treated well, why did Jesus need to clarify how to beat your slaves depending on whether their misdeeds were intentional or not?
Whether this is parable or not, it seems to indicate that this was an example that would have been understood and accepted. And even Jesus did not take the opportunity to explain that it wasn't ok to have or beat slaves.
Luke 12:47-48 (kjv)
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I believe it offends many because of it's misunderstanding, use, and wrong interpretation of it in so many churches! Old testament was not God's way of doing things....it's basically the introduction of Christ and an example of how people TRY to reach God with human efforts but fail. We are all imperfect and need salvation. The law was to get us to know we can't do it on our own..so when the blessing of the GIFT of what Christ done for us out of His love, we would gladly receive. Many churches still carry on the law and judging one another which is not the message or example of GRACE. The churches lack of faith still condemns, threatens, and abuses the Word of God to control and manipulate people. It's a shame, because the bible is a love letter to everyone to see how much He loves us, but most turn away from God because the strong lashing people do with His word to injure and hurt people from being interested in HIM. God is totally loving and a better Father who is endearing of His children, yet most are afraid and would rather not think about God and His existence. VERY SAD!:>)
The Bible offends poeple because the spiritual battle that ensues when someone either reads or hears the word of God. Jesus is the word made flesh and certainly offended many because what he stands for and speaks, throws down a direct challedge to the spirit of this world.
The word of God divides soul and spirit and this can be painful if our hearts are not closely connected to God through the Holy Spirit.
I don't think it's so much as the actual Bible, as it is the people who try to shove it down your throat... Even more so when the people take everything written in the Bible literarily. But hey, it might just be me.
Bible, is not the Exception ... its The Word of God ... in any State or Form ... that sets fire to the souls of the damned.
All Scriptures ... mote or less, State the Word of God ... Bible hath been narrated by Christ Jesus' Apostles ...
Al' Koran is Stated, by the Apostle of God.
Well we agree on one thing. Bible and quoran have pretty much the same threats and inhumane rubbish as each other.
Same old deal.....scare em spitless and they"ll buy any rhubarb thrown at them, even if it's bronze aged myths.
Koran, is a Noun ... and Nouns are always spelt with the Capital Letter ...
In Transliterating ... I have spelled Al'Quran as Koran ... for your familiarity with the term.
Learn my fellow ... while there is still time ... I can only ask ... but its for you, to change.
Cool! Show me your proof of Jesus ever saying anything.
What do you think jesus would have said? would be a good question to ask. Then after you think of all the simple answers to that question, remember the things that you never thought jesus would say, like about resurrection, his work on the cross... The recall the source of his words - note taking disciples who spent 3 years listening to jesus say the same message over and over again.
The proof is there if you care to think about it hard enough.
If you have to think it up - it is not proof cousin. LOL
It is not the bible that offends me. In fact I find a lot of value in it. No, It is just Christians that offend me.
In a world of changing standards of conduct and morality the Bible remains the same. It is the touchstone. If one is offended by a mirror so be it.
Many do not know what the Bible says. Instead they know what others tell them it says. Religious leaders have distorted the teachings of the Bible enough to turn people off.
My guess is that many here who are giving their opinion have no real idea what the Bible actually says.
to me it doesn't offend. how can a book offend, it's just a book. it's the ones who push it as the word of some god that are offending. especially those that teach it as fact to children.
There are also many many people who actively seek to close the door on the evangelism of Christianity.
These people hate God ,and anyone associated with Him.
I strongly object to be being bullied or told what and who I should believe in
LOL! Surely, you jest as I don't see you with any strong objections to God.
But, it is interesting you would say that considering it is your mission to go forth and tell people what to believe.
Funny, how you don't understand why they strongly object to that.
It is so because there are multitudes of evil people in the world that don't want to be told right from wrong! When they create their own version of "right" it's usually 100% different from what right truly is. They go so far as to justify, with ignorance, their reason for hating the Bible, when it's that they only hate themselves because they could never be right without agreeing with the Bible. It boils down to whom do you want to follow, God or man? PERIOD!
It is not the Bible that offend. It is the speculative teaching in the name of the Bible that offend.
Its not the book, its the people who read it, quote it, use it to further their own agenda and thump it. The book itself is pretty awesome.
John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Do you think that maybe that might offend someone?
I don't mean to be rude, but why do evangelical Christians always point out the part of the text where he was mad at the religious? Do you not see that you guys would be at the end of the whip if it happened today? You are all the spitting image of the portrayal of the pharisees and the saudicees. Are you all so blind?
Then let's try these.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
The two above seem fairly tame and unoffensive. What about those below? How many people do you think might be offended by those? There are the Word of Jesus Himself.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
OK. We'll talk about this. So, if you know that judging others is evil, that you are supposed to love your fellow man, and you know that you go against everything that was taught in the gospels, why don't you turn from the evil deeds and come into the light? You've got a perfectly good example to follow. Why don't you guys do that?
I say, you guys don't believe on Jesus, because you go so far out of your way to follow any part of the text you can find that doesn't emulate the examples he gave you. You don't stop to think about his words. You twist the parables to fit comfortably into your world and you pick and chose which parts of the Bible to throw at others and which to ignore because you like to do those things.
You mean go around and preach repentance and the kingdsom of God is at hand? Or do you mean telling people they should turn from their wicked ways and follow Jesus?
I have to laugh at this. You call me judgmental and yet you judge me by a few forum posts?
Just so you know, I have been studying the bible for 15 years now. Before I started studying it, I had to come to Jesus. I know there is a lot that I do not know, but there is some that I do know. And I do mean KNOW, not just believe it might be right.
I have twisted nothing. What I have written is the truth. This thread was started because of something said in another thread. You have proven to me that the Bible offends you, but yet you haven't told how it offends you or why it does.
I can quote more quotes from the Bible to show that people are offended if I need to. That is up to you.
Sir Dent, the whole point of my post was to show you that each and every word written can easily be turned by anyone to judge and condemn others. I can't believe that is how the writer expected their work to be viewed.
I doubt you've done serious research. I think the more probable scenario is that you've read the text and been taught by your sect. You've immersed yourself in one interpretation. That isn't attaining knowledge. That is book learning. But reading one book and following one train of thought is not true learning or growth. That is spinning your wheels.
If there are so many interpretations to Gods word then it would be a useless book indeed. We can see that through Gods son is the only way, and in fact the whole of the bible only speaks of one way, complete and total honesty with dependence on God for that ability. Its a shame (sarcasm) that God does not just bless his people with everything they need to be jesus's walking around and that His miracle healings are not a common everyday experience by faithful followers who completely do what God requires 24/7, but then God would not be allowing for choice or faith. God would have just blessed another puppet. Although the christian walk is hard we need to know that christians have a life on this planet and that to have God make them super christians would be stripping them of their life here. God wants us to enjoy our life but we need to learn deep within ourselves lessons that apply to our eternal spiritual lives.
IF God just blessed everyone to love Him, how genuine would that love be? If God said i will meet your needs and then they all won the lotteries, how would they handle the money? Unless God blesses them with financial christian accounting skills. No. There has to be parts of this life that we are responsible for so that our soul knows with sincerity. The right to choose is paramount. We are not all called to be pastors and miracle healers, evangelists but we are given of God - life to be enjoyed.
So be it that it may, whatever flaws you see in Christians are not something you can point your finger at, because when you see them X amount of time later, they will be different, they will have learned new things and God will have blessed them many times.
Sorry you see situations that you seem to think define that particular christian but the bigger picture says, change is gonna happen.
I've never considered it a useless book, but it is rendered worthless when people make comments like the one you just made and then turn around and argue that their personal interpretations are the final word on the book.
And, I think it is a shame that someone would have the audacity to make the claim that they completely do what God requires 24/7. I think it is ego and arrogance that make people think they are perfect. Preening by the religious was certainly one of the topics discussed in the book.
I don't detect anything hard about the fundamentalist/evangelical walk at all. It's 'do as I say, never as I do. I turn a blind eye to anything I may do that falls short of grace because, quite frankly, the rest of you are so darn evil I don't have the time to look at me.' That sounds like a cake walk to me.
Why do you speak of the physical world? That has nothing to do with things of the spirit. Do you honestly think your definition of god would, or could, give you the winning lottery numbers? Did you read any portion of the gospels? This focus on the material is one of the reasons it is obvious that many within Christianity don't care to try and see the point. You are all worried about what's in it for you in the short run.
As long as you, or any evangelical, lays claim to the right to point fingers, I'll reserve the right to throw it right back at you. Is that OK? That was a rhetorical question. I honestly don't care what you want me to do. I'll follow my own conscience.
You may rhetoric all you want and point fingers all you want and follow your own conscience all you want. You may even take harmless questions and by personalizing them take offense and then attack someone else. You may even think that your short scan of anothers post has lead you to properly interpret it and keep it in context. You may even completely disregard the message of the post and just reply to certain few words that kinda made you mad. And you may generalize and denigrate and judge all you want.
But if no one else is correct how can an agnostic grasp correctness? You need a wake up call to be in these forums.
I appreciate the attempt to deflect the conversation away from addressing your post, but I took your words at face value and responded. And, gosh darn, thanks for giving me free reign to follow my conscience. Whew. It was touch and go there for a while.
But, I replied to your response to my post. Nothing was taken out of context. If the point you were trying to make was not made it serves little purpose to chalk it up to someone not taking the time to read your post. If I reply, I have read your comments. Even if you have no respect for paragraph separation; I plow on through.
And, again, disagreement with your opinion does not denote anger. It's a difference of opinion. It happens to everyone occassionally. (With you and I quite often)
And there is no judgment involved. Simple observation of fundamental Christianity as it is played out on this forum. I don't consider it my place to pass judgment on you, or anyone else.
I have never said no one else is correct. Please, we disagree enough without you putting words in my mouth. Correctness is not a difficult concept. Being agnostic does not preclude me from understanding the concept.
And if I am in need of a wake up call, I'll need to hear it from someone less biased in order to believe it. I always stand ready and willing to be corrected and to admit when I am wrong. You should try that some time; if you ever decide to stop hitting your snooze alarm.
being agnostic does preclude you from understanding and taking any christian post at face value does not work either.
You indeed, need to study my post objectively
Ho hum. I have this sneaking suspicion that I'm going to regret this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. How does being agnostic preclude me from understanding? Because I am not a Christian? I hate to tell you this, but the Bible is not rocket science nor is it written in an archaic language that none of us can read. I actually own one and I have read it. As many have said on this site, there are over 30,000 sects within that faith. Even if I were Christian the odds of us agreeing would be miniscule.
And, if one is not to take a Christian post at face value, what is one to do? I expect to be held to my words, why would you expect to be treated differently?
I have no intention of studying your posts. Unless Hub Pages is going to start a program involving pop quizzes. When you respond to my posts I will read your response. There is nothing profound or deep that would warrant study.
being agnostic means you choose what to believe according to your belief. There are parts of the bible i am willing to bet you toss aside or that your belief does not include nor allow you to consider. Christians believe in the word of God, even the new testament even to the point of a literal snake in a literal tree, God bless them.
With all of the types of styles the bible is written in: allegorical, metaphorical, similes, hyperbole's, shadows, parables etc.. it is not rocket science which is math which follows formulas, the bible is somewhat more difficult. Many literalists do not discern when to use allegories for example.
I have debunked the 30,000 sects that people parrot having read about it here. A quick study of the names of the sects shows clearly that the 80 catholic churches in bulgaria are 79 branches of one main head office. Because there is a catholic church of masedonia and a catholic church of ethiopia this does not constitute 2 sects but one catholic church aside from what i think about the catholic UNchristian belief. There are merely 130 different types and mostly because new churches today do not want to be tied to denominationalism. All baptist churches whether in greece, south africa or the united states and even canada are still baptist -not different sects as purported. You can go to wikipedia type 30,000 denominations and travel a few links further to figure it out.
If you were christian the only things we need to agree on are the basics, salvation by jesus christ, being born again, the cross of christ, resurrection, an after life, and fellowship among bretheren to name most of the essential beliefs. How anyone interprets genesis 3:14 is not an eternal life dependent question and certainly not a salvation breaker. Whether or not balaams donkey actually spoke is not a salvation question either, in fact at the judgments i doubt very much that God will ask: "was the serpent a serpent or was it allegorical?"
When i write i write in christianeese, or bibleese i use terms familiar among christians. I expect to be understood is all.
I thought that this phrase was fairly straight forward:
Its a shame (sarcasm) that God does not just bless his people with everything they need to be jesus's walking around and that His miracle healings are not a common everyday experience by faithful followers who completely do what God requires 24/7,
and yet you seem to have had some problem with it.
and replied this:
And, I think it is a shame that someone would have the audacity to make the claim that they completely do what God requires 24/7. I think it is ego and arrogance that make people think they are perfect. Preening by the religious was certainly one of the topics discussed in the book.
A bit off the mark is it not?
And your thinking there is nothing profound or deep shows that God is not revealing things to you, his words are not in you because you deny much about Him already.
But enough is enough
Out of courtesy, I will address the last part of your post first. I was wrong. I didn't take into account that you were being sarcastic. For that, I owe you an apology and this constitutes one.
However; you have not debunked anything, except in your own mind. Had you debunked the statement that there are thirty thousand sects you couldn't find a listing. Although certain sects might affiliate themselves with others, that doesn't change the fact that they are sects. Compare it to the AA football in high school. They all play ball, but they have different coaches with different coaching styles. They are different teams with much in common, yet they are still separate entities.
And, your list of things Christians must agree on is not what all Christians agree on. They are still Christians; whether you include them in your count or not.
You are right about Genesis 3:14, but that is true of any verse. You can't set up deal breaker verses anywhere but in your own mind. A Christian is a Christian is a Christian while on this earth. If there is a God he will sort it out in the afterlife. Not you.
I did notice that we are ignoring the other gross errors in judgment in your original post. Fine by me. As I said, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong; yet I do understand you have a difficult time rising to the occassion.
I find it interesting that all you did was write down a few scriptures and immediately you were given an interpretation of what you believe and meant by it. You didn't even have to write your opinion someone chose that for you. Interesting indeed Sir Dent.
@Emile: "You don't stop to think about his words. You twist the parables to fit comfortably into your world and you pick and chose which parts of the Bible to throw at others and which to ignore because you like to do those things"
How can you twist words that are written in black and white? The sexist, homophobic and racist passages are so very clear. I noticed and questioned these upsetting passages as a CHILD. Children can't twist things. They learn that in bible school.
Agreed. The hatred is in the Bible. In black and white. There are also passages that clearly contradict the homophobic, sexist and racist passages. Why are they so hell bent on following the bad, when they have choice; and a clear mandate to walk away from that type of behavior? Given the choice, why do they chose to continue to hate?
I don't really know Emile. I worked with a Fundamental Christian for many years. She sat behind me and it was pure hell. She was the cruelest person I had ever meant and she was very judgemental and gossiped about everyone. Years before that I had a fundie boss that fired me because she overheard me telling another co-worker that it was inappropriate for my boss to talk about the evils of abortion everyday. I still don't regret that and I'm glad she heard me. In fact every fundementalist I ever met seemed to have anger issues and like to lash out at everyone who isn't like them. Perhaps a self help book could be more of use instead of a bible? I'm just sayin....
I think that you found these things to be true because those Believers were walking in their own righteousness. I apologize for them because they are a part of my Body.
The Word says, "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Sometimes we try and force people to believe through fear instead of through the knowledge of God's love for them. I have been self-righteous myself... offend everybody, alienating everybody and judging everybody... I was a mess, so, I can relate to what you are saying....
Believers staying in the Word of God will eventually do more them than any self-help book...
Only if you are actively trying to convince someone that they are like the people that Christ threw out of them temple. Then it really isn't the book, it is the person quoting the book. *shrugs* otherwise I'm sure that non Christians live their live daily without thinking of the verse. Like I said, it is the people that live their lives forcing the bible down someones throat that offend. Otherwise it is an inanimate object that only Christians need read. It's really hard to get mad at a book.
Edit: Unless you are Earnest. But he seems to get mad about everything. I think old age has made him contrary.
SirDent>>> what you just quoted would certainly offend quite a few tea-partyers, who look to the Christian Right for financial support.
I like the part where the kids make fun of baldy and God send two she bears out of the desert to maul the kids. That good reading!
42, unimportant, children.
unimportant means they did not have parents
children means they could have been up to age 20 in the hebrew.
This was a gang like unto gangs today. Living on the street, apt to crime.
The prophets life could have been threatened and this seemingly harmless confrontation with 42 gangmembers probably hungry, etc was to my thinking, a serious situation.
The Bible offends because it convists people of their sinful ways.
Yes. The evangelical Christians would, of course, assume that their behavior has nothing to do with the way people view Christianity. That's an easy out; but no solution.
What then is the solution? You seem to know what Christians should do and say so rather than criticize won't you please give us your perspective and an example of "proper" Christian behavior.....
Well, this is just my opinion, mind you. I was joking around in the other thread. But, I'd have been more than willing to contemplate the'miracle' of the message of Christianity if the following were fact.
1. Everyone stepped back and listened to the rabbis about anything written prior to the gospels. Christians have no right to attempt to hijack and interpret another nation's history. Christianity sidesteps many millennia of wisdom and reflection out of an arrogant belief system that began with assuming an entire people is responsible for the death of one man.
2. If you are going to use the name Christian, follow the Christ. It is extremely confusing to have a large group of fundies bouncing around and bandying his name about while going against everything he taught; and searching out single verses here and there to back up the claims.
3. I think it would be nice if the fundamental christians went (individually) on sabbaticals and read the book alone. Without the crazy preacher who was probably ordained by a coupon from a Lucky Charms boxtop. I have faith in humanity. If any of the fundies bothered to read the gospels with a truly open heart and open mind, they'd recognize a few truths and see a few of the fallacies in the evangelical teachings.
4. I would love for evangelical Christians to remember that everyone wants to be a chief, but the message was for the indians. Basically told them to be chief of their own hearts and minds and gave them the tools to do it. No one needs to be bullied or harrassed into seeing things another person's way.
5. And only because you asked, I would love to see the Christians who want to pretend that they are Christ remember he didn't walk around quoting scripture. It's annoying. Which is probably one of the reasons he chose not to do it. It appears to me that he read the text, decided what he felt it meant, then lived it.
6. I swear this is the last one. It just occurred to me. I don't think Jesus ever stood in front of a crowd and said 'God told me'. He let the wisdom of his words speak for themselves. It apparently worked at the time.
Emile, wow! Very nice! But would you be willing to consider the miracle of the message if only one Christian "stepped back?" I have studied not only Judaism, but also Kabbalah, Buddhism, Taoism and even Scientology. I've gained great wisdom from each of these.
"An entire people responsible for the death of one man?" Do you mean Christians blaming Jews for killing a cherished Jew? Yes, that's ego speaking. That's "judging" when they have been cautioned not to judge.
I have to agree that biblical literalists are annoying, but you seem to treat the whole as this one group. Is that proper and logical? I happen to belong to a Christian denomination of one. I know I'm arrogant and lazy, but I hope not as arrogant and lazy as those who refuse to continue to look for answers because they think they've already found them all. I know I haven't found them all by a long shot. My miracles are still too sporadic, my purity of heart too incomplete, but I'm making progress.
Your #4... bravo! The thumpers will be thumped! They don't realize that humility is a requirement, not an option. Their interpretation is one of many and likely wrong. I have found a few breakthroughs, especially in Genesis, but I've only scratched the surface. And even in my intelligent appraisal, I might be entirely wrong. But I continue to hunger for answers. Too bad some so-called "Christians" do not also hunger for answers.
#5? I have to disagree. Certainly, Yehoshua of Nazareth said his own great wisdom (creating new scripture for us), but he did quote scripture when the occasion required it. Quoting scripture is not in itself bad. It is certainly annoying if you don't agree with or appreciate such teachings. It is also annoying if scripture is quoted without understanding or wisdom.
One instance comes to mind -- when the Nazarene teacher was being threatened with stoning, he asked his enemies, is it not written in your works, "ye are gods?" He was quoting Psalms. And I believe he was alluding to what I consider perhaps the most important verse in the entire Bible: Genesis 1:26 -- that we were created in the image of God. Not these Homo sapiens bodies; that came later in Genesis 2:7. Ye are gods -- baby gods -- flesh of His flesh -- non-physical, spiritual and immortal sources of creation. That's the real us. And that is exactly why God is so interested in us. He cares very little for these temporary, animal bodies. That is why it was so easy for him to wipe out an entire planet of life to secure the rescue of his real children -- the immortal spirit within.
And your #6, I also have to disagree. The Nazarene said on numerous occasions that he comes from the Father to deliver a message. He also said that he and the Father are one. Some literalists think this is Yehoshua saying that he is God. Yikes! Short memories. The great teacher also made it clear on a number of occasions that he is not God, so what could "I and my Father are one" mean? Simply that he and God are completely in harmony -- like an expert race car driver is one with his race car. The driver is not the car.
I do realize that many times comments made against Christianity come off as a broad stroke condemnation. It isn't meant to be. Comments made toward Christianity by me (and my interpretation of other posts) are directed at the rabble rousers and their peanut galleries. I have a deep and abiding respect for those that truly attempt to follow what I consider to be the intent of the gospels.
Your response to comment number five ignores (as do many Christians) the fact that he was speaking to the religious of the time. It is no different from today. The only way to attempt to make the religious understand a point is to quote scripture from whatever text they use as their authority. I don't see this tendency that many Christians have of lobbing salvos of scripture reflected anywhere that Yeshua was sharing wisdom with the crowds.
Number 6, again, ignores a fact. A sage and a prophet saying 'I am one with the father' is entirely different from a wanna be leader trying to back up their words with 'God told me'. Yeshua's words were listened to and believed not because he ran about, screaming 'listen to me, listen to me. I can quote scripture and I know more than you people do. Because God says so.' His actions and his vision spoke the volumes necessary for people to believe.
Anyway, it's cool that you've studied across faiths. Everyone should. I think it is difficult (if not impossible) to find and understand spiritual truths without doing so in this day and age. We are not an ancient people. The time for being led by the hand apparently ended ages ago.
So, I think we can agree that truth on a spiritual level is an individual search. Following is dangerous and oft times leads to problems as witnessed here on Hub Pages. People spout the musings of other people. They internalize conclusions others have come to. That leads to a disharmony of the spirit. I suppose a personal sensei has its pros, but the cons are too great to ignore when you view the damage that has been done by the evangelical movement. People need to stop being sheep. They need to search for themselves, think for themselves, and have faith in their God that he will lead them to the unique conclusions that were meant for them to find.
1. Everyone stepped back and listened to the rabbis about anything written prior to the gospels.
Yes they did and they still wound up with divisions: pharisees, scribes and essenes. And they still did not understand that jesus was to suffer and be killed as the scriptures say.
Christians have no right to attempt to hijack and interpret another nation's history.
No hijacking, the scriptures say that God will bring the gentiles to understanding of His ways. The Hebrew religion is ours as well. It was a gift of God there is no hijacking.
Christianity sidesteps many millennia of wisdom and reflection
The OT scriptures is all that is needed. The reason we have spritualists and meditationists and chakra clearers and third eye wanderers is because of a diversity of MANS wisdom. This is why there is so much spiritual confusion in the world today. The millennia you speak of is necessary to christians because it was all written by 100ad.
out of an arrogant belief system that began with assuming an entire people is responsible for the death of one man.
Language of the times. Jesus was hung, he was taken prisoner by night with about 450 soldiers, sanhedrin and others. We have to ask where were his believers? Where were the ones he healed to protest. The crowd at the cross was a mixed bunch of believers and nonbelievers but as we notice even in here, the nonbelievers yell the loudest. The jewish religious belief system of the time were indeed arrogant and wrong but hey, tradition has a way of holding fast those that believe in it.
2. If you are going to use the name Christian, follow the Christ. It is extremely confusing to have a large group of fundies bouncing around and bandying his name about while going against everything he taught;
What a crock assumption this is. You just leave christians alone to grow as God wants them to NOT as you think they should. What you have done is just put them under LAW and dismissed GRACE. The very same rules that you think apply to christians you yourself should try to adhere too and see if being under the LAW makes you LOVE GOD.
and searching out single verses here and there to back up the claims.
I've read lots of those single verses and they are very appropriate.
3. I think it would be nice if the fundamental christians went (individually) on sabbaticals and read the book alone. Without the crazy preacher
You callin my pastor crazy?? You speak of something you know absolutely nothing about, but i am sure you speak only of the ones who are crazy, Campers maybe, benny hinn perhaps, joel osteen sorta... yes pick and choose who is crazy but what does that have to do with you? I have a pastor who is not crazy maybe others have found good ones too. Just because you find one bird who cannot fly does not mean all birds cannot fly.
I have faith in humanity.
To do what? lead us into another flood situation because if you look around there is much sin in the world today. Humanity will come to the end of itself because it cannot lead a successful society without all of Gods parameters in place.
If any of the fundies bothered to read the gospels with a truly open heart and open mind, they'd recognize a few truths and see a few of the fallacies in the evangelical teachings.
Too bad you did not elaborate on this bit of weirdness. I love your use of absolutes, its kinda sickening.
4. I would love for evangelical Christians to remember that everyone wants to be a chief, but the message was for the indians.
This is the difference between sent (by God) and went (by themselves) Some people get so eager they just go off and do their own thing, this is flesh reacting not spirit directing. One of Gods lessons to the christian is too let go of the cares and worries of this world and leave things in his hands, we call this patience also. He who is least shall be greatest. Christians are to wait for the calling and wait for their gifting. We are taught that self is to take second place to what God wants. So you have seen some exuberant christians wisking off and doing their own thing. Do you think that these christians should be restrained according to your time schedule? Do you think that perhaps God is not going to teach them a lesson so great that they will truly learn from this experience? You judge too much what God and the christian should be doing.
Basically told them to be chief of their own hearts and minds and gave them the tools to do it. No one needs to be bullied or harrassed into seeing things another person's way.
There is no others persons way if it is biblical it is Gods way. Bullied or harrassed is what you do and you want everyone to see it your way. Just because you know the list of do's and don'ts doesn't mean you have to strap all the christians in the chair until they fit lists criteria. GRACE is just what you lack and by doing so you have become a pharisee. Good luck with this.
5. And only because you asked, I would love to see the Christians who want to pretend that they are Christ remember he didn't walk around quoting scripture. It's annoying.
We have 72 days out of a 3.5 year ministry recorded in the gospels.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the BOOKS that should be written. Amen.
Not pages, books.... so how do you know he did not do that? the first thing jesus did when his ministry officially began was to speak from the torah, isaiah 61. Then there are key OT scripture quotings in the gospels and references about jonah and moses. You assume to much.
It appears to me that he read the text, decided what he felt it meant, then lived it.
6. I swear this is the last one. It just occurred to me. I don't think Jesus ever stood in front of a crowd and said 'God told me'. He let the wisdom of his words speak for themselves. It apparently worked at the time.
I could spend so much time pasting scripture about how God and He worked. I could paste scripture saying that Jesus is God in the flesh, but i won't.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Can you imagine your reaction if a christian stood in front of you and said the above. Jesus may not have said 'god told me' but he said so many things like it and more potent.
Actually there are several occasions where Jesus quoted scripture. He may not have given chapter and verse but he quoted word for word what the scripture said.
'It appears to me that he read the text, decided what he felt it meant, then lived it.
6. I swear this is the last one. It just occurred to me. I don't think Jesus ever stood in front of a crowd and said 'God told me'. He let the wisdom of his words speak for themselves.'
Jesus was, and is The Word, Life flows through Him. He didn't need to decide what he felt it meant, He knew what IT meant, so He lived it. And so should every believer.
You are right that a lot of christians (notice I did not say, believers, because the word christian has been embraced by those who don't even have a personal relationship with Christ) go around living a life that's so contrary to the person of Christ, but you were wrong to generalize.
There are countless of believers out there who live their lives, not judging others, but quietly praying for those they love (whether they are family members, friends, co-workers), that they will one day come to experience the joy of living in Christ and for Christ, and not for self.
For until we embrace His grace of salvation and rest in His grace alone, we live for self. And that's when the reality of eternal destruction applies.
And by the way, I'm not perfect, neither do I claim to be without sin, BUT I've been forgiven and therefore I am His - by His Grace.
Had you read my post, I think you might have noticed that I did not generalize ‘all christians’ except in comment number one. Because I don’t have anything against Christianity, I have problems with the way some chose to push their own agenda and pretend that it is somehow sanctioned by God.
But you, also, have chosen to generalize. By your post you sit in judgment and determine who is Christian and who is not; so we are not so different, you and I.
I’m not perfect either; but I do not attempt to believe that I am better than others and forgiven when others, in my mind, are not. If there is a God, his grace extends to all. Not just those that want to believe in their own minds that they have somehow been put on a pedestal above the rest of us.
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)"
Offensive and psychotic.
Nothing. Nothing at all, it is all sweetness and light. I love seeing psychotic despots worshipped by one and all. What could be better?
Why should Willy Waveadagga offend me?
Willy isn't claiming to be "the word"
There is some psychotic stuff in his writings, I was unaware that you made distinctions after all isn't it just fiction?
There certainly is some psychotic stuff in Shakespeare's work, and it is informative to the stories told.
Yes they are both fiction, but only one is claiming not to be.
Are you sure the Bible claimed to be anything other than what it is, or is it the believers who made the claim?
No, I am quite certain the bible makes the claim as well as it's followers.
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
So when I read a book and it starts with, Once upon a time, should I know that the book is making the same claim?
I always start mythical stories with once upon a time myself.
I answered you fully above.
The bible and it's followers claim it is the word of god, and I provided evidence from the book itself to support that claim.
Yours wasn't an answer it was a quote from a book of fiction, remember?
A quote from a book of fiction claiming to be fact, which you seem to be overlooking.
You mean the authors of the book of fiction are claiming it is fact. Do you see the problem?
Yes, I do mean the authors of the book claim it is fact, as do it's adherents, and I see no problem with what I said, please explain it to me if you would be so kind.
If you see no problem then there is no problem. I am happy to let you believe as you believe. I will pass no judgments or speculate as to your fate, I believe those that do are not very good Christians and unfortunately there are far too many evangelical types. I would add that if the Bible is not your cup of tea then avoid it and those that make you unhappy.
I will not be avoiding the bible, these threads or the christians who churn them out like burgers at McDonald's flogging their myth like used car salesmen.
What I will do, is continue to challenge people who claim myths are truth then try to draw conclusions for all of mankind from them.
To me that is what Immorality is about, so I don't tolerate being lied to and about by religionists.
As for anything making me happy or unhappy, I take responsibility for my own feelings, and nothing outside of myself is responsible for what I feel, nor is anyone else in a good position to know what "makes" me feel or how I feel.
What you think about me is none of my concern.
Then I guess you will be busy, unhappy and busy. You are very defensive and unusually aggressive towards people you deem inferior to yourself. Have fun bashing the truth (as you see it) over the heads of people who don't care what you think.
I would say, that there are believers who fit the bill and as well. This comment goes both ways.
You know nothing about me, and your assumptions are of no interest as you don't seem to know anything else either.
My advice would be to worry about your own happiness, grow up, get a life and if you want to make it personal you can ram it where the sun don't shine. OK?
I don't give a flying fairy about what YOU will LET me believe.
Unlike you, I don't allow people to control what I think.
You let the people on these forums control your every thought, you let me control your thoughts. And you will respond to this because you can't help yourself.
I'n only picking on this comment cause (nothing personal!)... cause I just started anonther thread abou WHY ? do we do it ?
When we know we cain't bee more than hal right.
This whole thread is a classic example ....
No, I will respond because I decide to, and I believe your thoughts are not thoughts at all, merely the shadow of your indoctrination.
He might not, but I'm going to You didn't aim your childish Jedi Mind Trick at me.
Earnest and I might not always see eye to eye, but he has a solid belief system and a pretty good grasp of who he is. He is consistent in his posts which, quite honestly, is more than I can say about a lot of people here. I don't know him personally, but from what I've seen here there isn't anyone controlling Earnest's mind or behaviors but himself.
You might want to give up on the psychological war games... If that is the best you have then you pretty much suck at it. And I know you'll respond to this because you wont be able to stop yourself
LMAO, so either I'm right and get to rub it in your face or you go away. Win/win. And its funny because its true. (read in most snotty annoying mind voice that you can create)
Edit: Demmit I hate when my slow typing speed puts me three posts behind in a thread.
What mind game? He lets people who post control him, it ain't brain surgery. Oh yeah, you win.
Thank you for your decency Melissa, I find your even handed approach to be worthy.
I know many here see this as some form of competition, I believe that we share the thought that it is more of a challenge than a competition.
I am OK with that approach, I am not very competitive, but I do love a challenge.
its not offensive and repulsive. This is probably your worst post ever!
You published a message of hope!
On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that EVERYONE WILL be ABLE to WORSHIP the LORD TOGETHER. My SCATTERED people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia WILL COME to PRESENT THEIR OFFERINGS.
Maybe now you see how brainwashed you have made yourself.
Yes God scattered them but God will continue to work out a resolution to the stubborn wills of his people and he will perfect his work over time. God has not forsaken them at all, but after they come to the end of themselves and realize, GOD will be there because He loves them and they still have hope.
Nice post earnest.
A message of hope is it?
Have you tried reading anything without wearing the tin foil hat?
A tin foil hat does not impede my vision nor my understanding.
How are those blinders workin out for ya?
No blinders brothery.
2 years on these forums, not one piece of evidence even that jc ever lived, let alone all the OT disconnect......no answers from religionists that amount to any more than "the mythical goddunnit." if it suits, and mandunnit if it doesn't.
wow those are good blinders.
In context: we live and breathe and have our existence in God, for God is everywhere and if man dunnit they chose to do it. This is what God is all about, respecting our decisions because if He doesn't then we have lost our ability to choose. Choice from the garden all the way through time. And if He forces us to choose we have lost the ability to become responsible for our actions.
Of course you have your mind made up, your choice is firm but He still goads you, does he not.
Hmmmm...quite a choice your god gives-- do it my way, believe in me or be tortured with unbearable burning for eternity. Just curious as to how you see this as a choice and not coercion? Or have I misinterpreted what you mean by choice?
I don't find the Bible offensive, although I much prefer reading the NT. People who find the book offensive shouldn't read it. Simple solution. Same goes for porn, violence, satanic verse, or Dr. Seuss. lol
I've been studing the bible for about 25 years or so. I have a PHD in Biblical Studies. I don't find the bible offensive in the least. I do however have a problem with people spouting scripture when most have no understanding of what they are saying. Most twist the meaning to support their arguement or beliefs. I would say that about 85%-90% of the people who claim to be christian, have little to no idea of the history of the bible, what it truly means, the context of its written style, they only know what they have been taught to believe from a church or pastor or they only study the bible itself without using commentaries, other texts or even free scholarly education to back up their findings.
What I find offensive is that all these Bible thumpers are taking direct quotes from the Bible. It is duplicate content, not original, the standard of writing non-Christian writers on here must adhere to. If someond spoke about how a scripture changed their lives, or didn't copy every page of Matthew, it would be at least credible. I've had viscious Christians writing me that I would burn in hell for writing about Astrology. God made the planets, if you believe a magic created everything. It's proved life was on Earth over 30,000 yrs ago, but these people are a cult who refuse to believe what scientists have proven true. I don't lecture them on my hubs, and don't believe I deserve to be lectured about a religion I don't care for on mine. Do you think Jesus would like you going on forums threatening people with Hell if they disagreed about a simple piece of entertainment writing? This is just too tiresome.
And as Double Scorpion brings out, I have read the whole book. Have any of you people telling me I'm going to Hell? You dont know anything about me or my life, and the next threat I get will be reported.
Nobody told you that you were going to Hell... You alone came to that conclusion based on the light that you see in the scriptures that we quote.
That is the way the Word of God works... It shows you yourself.... that's why people get angry...
Everyone of us who professes Jesus as our Lord and Savior, saw ourselves in the light of the Word of God... This is what made us bow our knee to the Son of God and receive Him as both Lord and God...
Jesus loves YOU!!!
That isn't entirely true. When someone tells you that you must agree, or you are going to hell: that doesn't make it true, but you can't deny that the threat was made.
It most assuredly is absolutely true. There has been no threat, just conviction. All we have done is given scripture in line with what we believe.
No one said you had to agree, no one said you were going to Hell, you came to those conclusions.... We haven't even used any salvation scriptures when responding to you....
You are condemn yourself and then blame it on Christians. Why is this?
If there is no truth in the Word of God why do you belabor the issue of how it is being presented?
Well, there are many people incarcerated in America today for making threats. They didn't actually have the bombs they threatened to kill people with. Probably wouldn't have known how to make one if they had the material. They simply made comments that they were contemplating the act.
If you want to threaten people with your words, that is your choice. We know you don't have the power to do any damage but the intent rankles nonetheless.
If I were to make a bodily threat to you, how would you feel? I don't know you. I don't know where you live. I could never follow through; yet wouldn't you feel as if I was trying to intimidate you? I don't understand why the Christians who push this can't see the correlation.
We, or rather I don't understand it because you were never threatened. You were never judged, you were never proselytized. You entered into conversations that had nothing to do with you and posed a question. The question was answered, you didn't like the answers and you began this tirade.
All, any of us have done is respond to you... nobody told you that you were a sinner, that you were going to Hell or that you needed to get saved.
You have made these conversations about you... and have deteriorated them to the point where you think you are being threatened. You are not.,
Again, I say this, the light of the scriptures has shone into your soul and you have judged yourself... we have not.
Oh, for heaven's sake. You walk into an online forum and start spouting off your take on heaven and hell and you don't expect to garner a response? Start a blog. Go door to door. Preach in your church.
These forums are being used as your pulpit. Whether you admit it or not. Your words are there for all to see. If you doubt, joke around hard with someone and wait to get banned because someone blew by and misunderstood the joke.
You will be challenged as long as you chose this medium to evangelize. Get used to it.
I have to wonder where the anger is coming from here....hmmmm
I realize you got offended when I laughed at the question you posed on another thread, however; accusing me of anger every time you run across one of my posts doesn't equate to anything more than that you are miffed.
We disagreed. Embrace it then shake it off. Don't let it fester. It's unhealthy.
You better not speed or you will get a ticket.
You better not kill anyone or you will go to jail.
You better not be a serial killer or you will get the death penalty.
You better not sin or you will be exterminated.
now tell me your perceived threat is not just that, perceived.
is it not also, biased?
When are you being exterminated brothery?
Or are you completely without the sin you believe in?
You better not speed or you will get a ticket.
You better not kill anyone or you will go to jail.
You better not be a serial killer or you will get the death penalty.
You better not sin or you will be exterminated.
Notice how your God is far more cruel than we humans? Seems our moral standards are much higher than His.
There is no duplicate content rule for the forums....
Some very good points, Double. But even the scholars don't have it all figured out. They can look at cultural context, compare writing styles and the like, but their interpretation is still only interpretation.
For instance, what is the meaning of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" in Genesis 6? There are many interesting ideas, but I disagree with all of them. I think there is a hidden wisdom in the Bible that requires great study, but also humility.
Did you know that the Kabbalah's "Tree of Life" is embedded in two chapters of Genesis?
Did you know also that there is a timeline in Genesis which is compatible with those of science? And it's connected to that "Tree of Life."
I have read that some scholars think the Kabbalists originated during the Middle Ages. The Kabbalists, on the other hand, seem to think that Kabbalah originated during the time of Adam -- the earliest tribe of humanity.
I didn't hear you say that you are a believer. Having a PhD in Bliblical studies doesn't make you an authority on the Bible. Yes, there are so many christians who no nothing about the history of the bible. What does that have to do with being saved?
The Fishermen who followed Jesus were not schooled in the Mosaic Law of that time, but that didn't stop them from turning the world inside out in the name of Christ.
The illiterates from villages in Nigeria, W. Africa, who can't read or write, but have been annointed by God and filled with his spirit, have been able, through their lives and testimonies, and preaching, to influence thousands of lives for Chirst.
Haven't you heard "“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called” (I Corinthians 1:26).
God doesn't care about the PhD, He looks at the heart. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
Spoken like a true sheep...
If someone holds a Doctorate in BIBLICAL Studies, how does that not make them somewhat of an authority on the bible...considering that is the focus of a doctorate of biblical studies...I suppose that the bible, faith, beliefs are all the same things?
There are many who think they have "God's" understanding of the bible. Which would be why we have over 30,000 branches of christians.
If I was to follow your logic, then I would be able to put you into the same category as those from the Westboro Baptist Church.
I was not talking about being saved or about beliefs at any point in my post. I was talking about the bible itself. And Yes...Since I have a PHD in Biblical Studies...That does make me somewhat of an authority of the bible text itself.
Beliefs or personal faith is a completely different subject.
And as I have told others, offering opposing theories or comments have nothing to do with my personal beliefs...It is simply offering the other side of the coin for discussion.
I have only purposely cast an insult one time to one person. I try to not to add insults to my comments. I offer information based off of my studies, both formal and personal, or an opinion now and again. And do my best not to direct my comments at any one person, but direct them more for the broad audience. And I try (for the most part) to not make comments that would be considered insultful to anyone. And since you chose to downgrade my personal formal religious education as pretty much nothing of importance and insinuated that uneducation and illiterate people have more to offer than I do, I consider to be very personally insulting and very unchristianlike.
Have a Blessed Day!!!
I really didn't mean to come off too strong or be offensive, I apologize for that, and yes, as a PhD holder in Biblical Studies, you do have somewhat an authority over the text of the bible and I give you the respect due. But when you said that
"I would say that about 85%-90% of the people who claim to be christian, have little to no idea of the history of the bible, what it truly means, the context of its written style, they only know what they have been taught to believe from a church or pastor or they only study the bible itself without using commentaries, other texts or even free scholarly education to back up their findings.", it sounded as if you were saying that, one will have to know the history, the context of the written style (etc.) of the bible in other to passionately speak on or defend what's in the bible.
These 85%-90% people that you speak of (I do not know where you got this stats from, but I'm going to assume that you have you facts straight)may actually just care that they can boldly speak of their savior and their experiences with him, and not so much that they know the history of the bible.
I believe that - should be enough.
A lot of the problem we have in the church as a body today, is that many spirit-filled men of faith with God given-knowlege of the Word have been pushed out the church for lack of seminary education or what not, and have been replaced by those (again, this is not an attack on you, I'm just making a point) who claim to somehow know the mind and thoughts of God. And all we get now is just charismatic and oratorical preaching.
And by the grace of God, I am a true sheep, and I will gladly follow my shepherd, sheepishly if I may. And I believe you are too.
My opinion... Is that Education along with the assist of God's understanding makes for a stronger connection with faith and beliefs.
And I have met many a good, self educated pastors who understood the bible quite well.
Today it seems that many churches are more about money these days. And want the educated minister to "justify" the monies paid.
I so concur! This truly is about .... the bible doesn't offend but the people that shove their interpretations of it...down one anothers proverbial throat... All in all , most educated in biblical studies... know that it is a book...edited by many a man ..many a fool ... and my mom still says.... God wouldn't allow his book to be tampered with.... I say .....mom, freewill prevails. I love my relationship with God! When God speaks... I listen... doesnt require reading.
Cos i think truth is bitter.
If you look around you will understand that the most sweet things [by human understanding] re mostly considered bad [if you follow the bible]
take for example,[fornication, idol worship, cheating on your spouse, dishonesty, killing, fraud, stealing, incest and a whole range of others]
but these things re what people derive joy in doing.
So when it is spelled out in the bible as WRONG, you see many people are affected.
I am glad you liked it, Emile.
I hope you are doing well today. It is a beautiful morning here in Florida... no hurricanes... fairly cool and clear. I hope you are having as pleasant a morning as I, Emile.
The Bible is offensive to so many people because their hearts are hardened to the Word of God. But there has been many revelations. As of late, large scale numbers of religious groups like Muslims are shifting towards Christianity as the truth.
That must the reason why Muslims are constantly telling us that Islam is the fasted growing religion in the world...
... wait a minute...
If you want to talk about indoctrination with rules that state "death to those who leave koran" and their abilities to breed, yah its growing.
A large part of the problem is people know that once Christianity knocks on the door, their life is supposed to change.
That is what offends.
For instance those who publish hate propagating posts and think they live a life without sin, would, upon turning to God immediately change their posting style (couldn't resist)
People spend their whole lives thinking and making others think that they are so wonderful and good. They spend their whole lives stroking their egos and making smiling faces, etc. indeed some are good and yet these same people know that God will want to change them.
Then Jesus comes to town and everyone gets angry, because you cannot fool your own soul. Everyone knows what they are like and everyone likes to keep the mask on. Yet when jesus comes to town the mask is destined to fall off.
When we discuss Thor or zeus or buddha people smile and say, "oh thats nice", but when jesus walks up the lane, people immediately get nervous.
What people don't know is that when christianity knocks on the door, God will change them, they aren't even expected to change themselves. Christianity is about loving God with all their heart and the rest miraculously falls into place over time and through experience. Rules do not make a relationship - love does.
So really it is the mindset of the unbeliever that causes the offense, if they did not rely on the programming of this world which is 'one must work hard to achieve their goals' and be reminded that God does the work inside them, graciously, as they let Him, then offense would not so easily happen.
Agreed, anyone who comes knocking at the door trying to convert you to their religion is highly offensive, selfish and disrespectful. How can we deal with it?
As a foolish man seeking the wisdom and prosperity that only God can provide, I hope my posts are received as merely that. Better to be a foolish man than a man who is wise in his own eyes.
brotheryochanan, you have a pleasant way of rounding out your train of thought. Well received post.
The bible is only offensive to the extent that genocide, infanticide, rape, oppression of women, torture, animal sacrifice, human sacrifice and slavery are offensive. Otherwise, its just fine.
Oh, and at the least, slavery, oppression of women and torture are in the New Testament, so the 'that's just the old testament and doesn't count' argument doesn't work.
They are also in the USA, Europe, the Far, Near and Middle East and everywhere else on the planet.....
Most great literature in all literate cultures attest to these issues in everyday life... So, it sounds like these issues are human offenses and, the Bible just addresses them spiritually and culturally. It is the people who continue there in.
The New York Times is offensive because it tells the truth just like the Bible tells the truth...
Also, tell me Doc, if you found a person committing a heinous crime against the one you love the most, would you allow them to continue or would you intervene?
In the OT, God is intervening....
(I am originally from CA... Lake Tahoe is wonderfully beautiful!!!!)
Thank you LeslieAdrienne, for responding and disagreeing civilly.
I do not have a problem with the bible, itself, as a book. I find it to be a fascinating window into ancient cultures, beliefs and practices. If it was presented that way, I would not find it offensive. The New York Times also reports human occurences, yes, but does set out rules by which we should live, attributed to the all-powerful creator and punishable by eternal torture for non-compliance. That, along with the OT atrocities is what I find offensive . The bible is not supposed to be just relaying stories by most accounts. It is supposed to direct the way to live.
The danger is what is always demonstrated in discussions like these. There are MANY different ways to interpret the words as they appear, to decide what the story is supposed to teach. And these interpretations are easily able to be adapted or twisted to suit the interpreter because they just aren't that clear. Nice people will find the good and follow that. Bad people will focus on those parts that fit with their beliefs and desires. People get hurt because of this.
And for Tahoe, I feel very lucky to live here, but I will grumble a little bit about spending hours a day during storms with the snowblower. Where in CA were you from?
LA proper... I left more than 20 years ago and when I go back I am always amazed at how brilliant the sun is (despite the smog), how good the seafood is, how healthy everyone looks and how much I miss the beauty of the beaches....
Often our Bible discussions deteriorate because we Christians are trying to intellectually explain things that we understand spiritually. The scriptures tell us that the things of God are foolishness to the carnal [intellectual] mind. This is why you see Christians debating the method of salvation or is the Holy Ghost for today... we battle doctrinally because we are trying to explain and prove and delineate based on "what makes sense".
The truth of Gods Word does not make "sense". It doesn't make sense that God would create mankind knowing that they were going to mess up and that He would have to turn around and come in human flesh to redeem mankind back to Himself... But He did it....
There is nothing in the Word that is rational... it is all spiritual. And, until we become spiritually minded we [Christians included] can't even receive it...
The foolishness of the Gospel of Christ is the power of God, until salvation.
Jesus probably didn't exiist even as a man. No Evidence at all.
He came a poor second or even 3rd on the list of majik men.
Do some current research.
But He's so famous!
Someone must've had one awwwwesome literary agent, huh?
You can know about what really took place ........if you wanted to.
You could too Leslie.
I guess neither of you have a television set or can read anything that is not religious. That may handicap a wee bit.
handicaps are found in stranger places than the bible.
And who are the people in charge of that research? Those who live to discount Him! Rest my case.
Here is a link for all the religiously impaired to avoid like the plague.
Ya don't wanna get all informed like now do ya?
I'll read it if the link doesn't crash my internet as usual. Wanna hear my critique of it? Surely you do.
Well Im not impaired so youre saying Im best to avoid it
Thanks for the link Ernesthub... (How's your family?)
I didn't watch it all, but I plan to a little later. It makes sense that there were others preaching the message of Jesus and performing similar miracles in His name. But, they were not Jesus...
["Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me." Mark 9:38-39]
Jesus sent 70 out to various towns with His message, that doesn't mean that they were His rivals. Surely once these returned to Jesus, those who were inspired by them began to preach and perform miracles as well.
Miracles do not prove deity... devils, witches,voodoo priests, all these and more perform miracles all of the time...
The message is and was unique, but once heard could and should have easily been re-preached. Still no proof of deity.
The death for on the cross , the resurrection from the dead and the unfathomable love for mankind proves deity.
And He (Jesus) said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.
No one was doing anything in jesus name. They were doing it in their own names.
You may like to note that all religions make the claim that you are making, and all the other messiahs had as much or more lean on the son of god title than jesus did.
One or two of them actually existed too!
Oh, and, earnest, when I followed that link you posted, my computer notified me that I needed to upgrade to a certain video capability, and when I agreed, it said that "type of file may damage your computer"........sorry. Maybe you oh enlightened one can give me a rundown of the jist of the videos' information?
Sorry Brenda, I am no expert on video links.
I would think it easy enough to just google "rivals of christ" and whatever turns up in google as a video should work.
I do know I cannot always get video links to work from other countries either.
I also get pulled up by error messages from my computer's security.
Try this link Brenda.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 9810625112
I is religiously impaired, remember? I is skeered.
I know you really meant empowered.
I can see behind that tough exterior of yours earnest, earnestly. Your past acknowledgement of the Lord is still in there somewhere. Maybe deeeep down. But there. Why do you deny it?
It's very simple Brenda. I deny it because I have a lot of evidence that none of it is true.
The first person I had to be honest with was myself. By the time I had done the study I was no longer able to deny it was a pile of old washing from beginning to end.
As for returning to religion? You missed the mark. No matter how much I would like a free ride to heaven, I would not accept it from an omnipotent god as long as he left even one child hungry, abused, homeless, without love.
No, "believers" worship a psychopath without even the fundamental knowledge that the very neediness is indicative of a despot, not a god.
You now have to avoid anything that documents your mistakes, as the bible has always done. Fit the strongest churches needs at the time, and incorporate bits of all beliefs no matter how bizarre to suit all the different superstitions of the easily fearful and ignorant-by-choice.
but yet even with apolonius, there are still hungry children, abused, homeless and without love. It seems that as many miracle workers who speak a way of righteousness cannot deter this reality.
Jesus said, "the poor you will have with you always".
An act of God? or an act of people? Logic should dictate the answer to that. But why doesn't God put an end to that? You would have to know God better to understand.
But try this:
No miracles work globally where people are concerned because all of the people that combine to create these situations would have to be changed in their hearts.
They were all frauds is the simple answer. All claiming something they thought would convince followers.
except one and the reason christianity expanded far beyond all the simon magus and apollonius' is because Jesus did Gods work. Simon magus, obviously working for his own reputation. Apollonius, his major flaw was that the video stated he mainly preached to the well off and wealthy - probably thinking they could best fund his mission.
I don't know what magic these guys were doing. The healing on the video seemed quite miraculous, but how did they actually do it.. was it herbs? video technology is quite decieving even when it is not trying to be deceptive.
As for the book called the acts of peter, i read it online and it pure rubbish. Its another apocrypha book and that i believe says it all.
As to the miracles of these people. I do not know how david copperfield made a 747 vanish, but i do know how chris angel walked on water. To the people of those days perhaps pulling shekels out of the kings ear would make such a magician noteworthy.
Simon magus had a female partner whom he claimed was the female side of God. Simon claimed he was the incarnation of the holy spirit, which spirit would not have wrong doctrines if it were true. When simon noticed the gift of the holy spirit he wanted to buy into it, but by his own confession he was the incarnation of the HS. Obvious fake.
Apollonius. Claimed his birth was announced by God, yet he only preached to the certain people and not to all an obvious contradiction to jesus message which comparitively seems more godlike. Seems he also had a more watered down message than jesus, again, conflicting messages with jesus emerging more godlike again.
And that warrior fellow whose name i cannot remember, the one who lead the assault against rome but was eventually vanquished. The documentary stated this fellow would more have fit the hebrews mindset of what their messiah should be like, but then he asked them to cut off a finger to show allegience. Power corrupts i suppose, but not in jesus' case.
After viewing the documentary i found that it did not discredit jesus at all. In fact it actually discredited the other fraudulent messiahs. I also thought how could anyone use this information to discredit jesus. Then i assumed that perhaps any atheist desperate enough to want to find info that makes them feel good about their decision would lap it up.
Also you can Google National Geographic The Secret Bible 2 of 3 The Rivals Of Jesus, or watch it on TV, or get it on DVD or trip over a copy of it on the way to church!
No no no. I mustn't trip over anything on my way to church. Dvd's, tv, McDonalds toys===all BAD BAD stuff!
Hold on. I'll try googling it. My computer is Christian, so I don't wanna inflame it. Last try.
Having quite a giggle at the rappore tween you two
Now tell that aint evidence of Gods happy heart right there!!
Brenda ,shame on you ,dont ya know 'Jesus Saves' re link ,hehe
Hahaha Eaglekiwi you're fun!
God let me google those videos, and I must say they're beautifully made, compellingly commentated, and.....easily exposed for the anti-Christian propoganda that they are!
The reason the bible offends many people, in my eyes, is simple. Jesus said in the bible I can't remember which book or verse that, people that are in the dark (sin) don't like to come into the light (non sin) for fear of their sins being exposed. The bible is very black and white. It's like having that really blunt friend that "tells it like it is" and you either hate him or her for it or you love them; no gray area. People like to straddle the fence and play in that gray area where they cherry pick which sins they want to indulge in and which ones they won't.
The funny thing is, and I am not harping on anyone's case that doesn't believe in the God of scripture, but there are so many people that say they don't have any spiritual belief system. And it's fine to have your own views and opinion. But then, why do some of those same people become so furious and angry when someone tells them that there is a very real hell? To me, if you don't believe, why bother debating or even posting nasty comments to anyone? You should be so self-assured in your non-belief it shouldn't be worth the effort.
God gave each and every human past/present/future a conscience. And I feel most, if not everyone, has wondered about heaven and hell. It is almost coded in our DNA to want to know "is this all there is"? Humans are eternal. And we will spend eternity somewhere; either heaven or hell.
When I was in my teens I would just close my eyes and point a finger on to a bible page. With wonderful results .... A message of hope and help for me was awaiting. Most days when I read in the bible as study .....I really didn't feel moved or inspired. That taught me at an early age that the bible is there for guidence on a very personal level... just Like God is as well. The only people I can think of that would be offended are the ones that are always looking for a reason to be unhappy, argumentative and negative about most people places and things. Just saying :-}
just sayin...... the bible has more abusive disgusting inhumane crud in it than any book except the quoran, and to avoid it you would need to be trying very hard indeed.
I agree the bible has flaws as much of it was wrtten and altered by manipulating, controlling men. That is why we have to let God in our hearts and mind to be guided ....especially in a book about God and the fact that the bible has been re-written so many times by new controlling men.....still doesn't mean a great message isn't there. Learning and growing comes from positives and negatives.
Ohhhhhhhhh! You better be careful... we Christians are taught to turn the other cheek, but if you start 'dissing (disrespecting) the Quoran you might get locked up...
Haven't you heard about Asia Bibi????
Nah! I get more threats from born again christians than I get from muslims.
I think threats are still about ignorance and fears.... Like a bully per sa . Born again christians or Muslim or anyone can still be ignorant and full of fear ...or full of themselves...in which the latter makes more sense to me... because a self without God Holy spirit within ...should be fearful.
yes Earnest Yours too ... You are still a child of God ...oh thats just my opinion lol But to laugh is showing the above mentioned... Just saying ... Hope you have a great evening Big E.
No, I don't do god, had my days of dillusion many years ago. I will have a good evening though, in about 10 hours time. Morning here.
O My ... well then Good morning! I guess then God wont do you either... what a pity ... I like you much, you have alot of intelligence and great humor. I would never try to push God on anyone ... my way is to just live happy and hope someone ask Why I am that way... then I can say. However we are on this forum and I see you like it here very much. Nice to debate with ya. Toodles
Good evening Mia, yes I do come here a lot. Usually in response to something stated as fact that is conjecture.
can you back up your conjecture of intelligence and great humor with some evidence please.
don't forget the disgusting crud in the roman and greek myths. Don't forget the child sacrifices also.. something that Gods people did not do.
the bible so comes out as a lamb when compared to the killing, rapes, adulteries, stealings of the roman, greek myths.
disgusting crud is whats operative.
You mention all the horrible things in the bible but yet you can't wait to read about the myths again which are rife with castrations, killings, wars, etc..
oh well, just another thing that doesn't add up.
No. What doesn't add up is your propensity for idealising your myth while not seeing that the myths you hate so much are seen as myths by everyone but yourself.
Myths, when seen as myths inform the mind of mass consciousness. Myths when seen as real are the product of indoctrination and produce psychosis.
[Quote=brotheryochanan] Don't forget the child sacrifices also.. something that Gods people did not do.[/Quote]
I believe god commanded his people to perform infanticide when invading "The Land of Milk and Honey." And the Gentleman in Judges who sacrificed his daughter to the Lord.
Oh yeah, and speaking of myths, the romans never did sacrifice babies to gods. That's just a bunch pseudo-catholic propoghanda designed to scare people from joining other religions by teaching that Satanists performed those in their rituals - which they do not, not have they ever.
2 interesting scenarios you point out.
Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
Judges 11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
You assume that God wanted Jephthah to make this vow. I do not think God wanted this vow made, regardless, there is in the translation some disagreement on burnt offering but rather an ascent offering. Do we not think it strange that she wanted time to grieve with her maids, before she was supposedly burnt and does it not strike odd that she even came back at the appointed time to be 'burned', in my opinion, she was put into service at the temple. What did jephthah think was going to come of the doorway of his house, but a person, did his cows live in the house? or his sheep? There are no records of jephthah having male children.
The infanticide of children i am going to ask for direct scriptures please
i would also like to suggest you do more research on your claim about what romans did with babies.
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=of … mp;bih=603
As to the satan aspect of your post, it comes out of nowhere and so i will just leave it there.
Um - your Imaginary Friend was supposed to have murdered every land animal, man, woman and child on the planet - except for 6 people and 2 of every animal. And this is not that bad?
You appear to have come unhinged cousin - I suggest seeking help immediately.
proper perspective precludes your hasty assessment of unhinged.
Even though i shake my head and think tsk, tsk what a shame, i believe that God can do what he wants with His creations and that, at any given time He will do as He sees fit.
Numerically speaking, at a time when the earth was still young, i will just throw a number out, 500 million people at the time of the flood, worldwide... recall i believe the flood to be localized. This number does not equal the deaths that mankind has caused. Indeed i would hazard a guess that the number that died in the flood is far considerably less than some of todays statistics:
1.73 million abortions per year in the US alone
hiroshima, nagasaki, WW1 and 2 (not to mention the other wars)
I don't even think i have to list other factors from our history which are death related.
God, the bible says, "saw that the wickedness of mans heart was inclined to evil continually". We know what the egyptians were up to AFTER the flood and that is not a good example of what was occurring before the flood, in short, if God says man heart was wicked continually then i have to believe that there were some buggers indeed.
You can purport some bleeding heart attitude for evil people 4,000 yrs ago, but i bet you wouldn't have reached middle age if you lived back then. It seems like a very strange time, if we look at the egyptians, after the flood who offered children to be sacrificed, drank blood and plundered willingly to name a few.
I do not think my head nodding at this event represents any sort of unhinged mentality at all. I think your post is more along the lines of ammo than sympathy and if so, you may need help in being honest with yourself.
You do realize that one of the largest number of deaths were caused in the name of God? To be more specific, in the name of the Christian God.
The crusaders are said to have murdered more than a million people.. It is even said that the streets of Jerusalem have been filled with so much blood that it reached the knees of horses... I won't judge your believes but does this seem like something your God would want from His supposedly BEST creation? Or is this just an example of Him doing as He "sees fit"?
You do realize that i distinguish catholicism from christianity and that i put catholicism on the pagan side of the fence.
Its not something God wanted, its a byproduct of what certain men wanted and what people who follow mans ways did.
Jerusalem has narrow streets btw lol
You do realize that simply because you call Catholics non christian and pagans doesn't make it so? You don't get to redefine things so you can conveniently rewrite christian history.
tsk tsk... you should know better.
the doctrines and practices of catholicism including its history speak a different tale that you just tried to weave.
I do nothing out of convenience especially rewrite history. The truth speaks for itself. Catholicism is still practicing doctrines today that are completely unbiblical.
just drop by http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ to catch the latest and view archives of popes impressive decrees.
You got to see it OK then Brenda?
I did not like the glossy look of the video myself, it looked too commercial, but that is the standard in documentaries these days.
My research did not find any flaws in the facts or conclusions though.
Perhaps you have more knowledge than those who put the series together.
Drat it, I had a reply going already, and then I accidentally hit a button and it disappeared into thin air. Stupid magic! I can't control it! hahahhaa
Okay. Yes, I watched part of the vids. Didn't take any longer than that to realize they're an attempt to nullify the word of God by suggesting that Christians were running a political campaign in favor of Jesus for 2000 years! Wow. I did not know that the ancestors of the progressive activism groups were that paranoid all this time! lol
Come on, earnest. Even one of the commentators said it's more likely that those other "messiahs" were trying to imitate Christ in order to gain notoriety over Him! Supposedly Simon Magus labeled himself as the embodiment of the Holy Spirit (and a former prostitute Helena somebody as the other "half" of that), and Jesus as the embodiment of the Trinity. That doesn't even make sense; no room to even reconcile those claims with each other! And Simon Magus tried to BUY the Holy Spirit from Jesus's disciples...? If Simon WAS the Holy Spirit, why would he feel the need to try to buy the Holy Spirit from someone else? Makes no sense. No spiritual sense, no theological sense, nothing.
I didn't watch all the videos, like I said, but I doubt there's any redeeming theories there. So far, especially, there was no messiah who even claimed to Love everyone so much that he would die for them, nor died for them; no one except Jesus the Christ! His claims and His death and resurrection are documented, are they not?
These are even more reason that I ask you again----are you sure you were ever born-again? Being born-again means accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. It means you actually had the Holy Spirit within you. Did that happen to you? I see no evidence that you ever got that into your spiritual knowledge or your intellectual knowledge. I'm sorry, earnest, I just don't get it, how you could be drawn to the theories in those videos if you ever met Jesus the Christ.....
No, my experience was totally fraudulent!
Loved you description of a video you only watched a few minutes of.
None so blind and all that.
There is plenty of evidence coming online that shows clearly that the bible was a pile of political rhubard designed to make a few men's lives a lot easier, those such as the prophets and messiahs of the time.
I would like to see the credentials that religionists have, and compare backgrounds of education and knowledge with those of the film's makers and National Geographic, then we could have a discussion based on reality where we can discuss why you consider it a comspiracy and what the motives were other than to inform?
Or are they just all liars and frauds?
We have credentials! Do you want me to list them all? Or just the most definitive one?
Eh, you ask if those filmmakers are just liars and frauds.
They're simply deceived if they really believe any of those false "messiahs" can hold a candle to Jesus.
They don't believe any of them, I thought that would be obvious.
I have never seen an ancient bust of JC have you? One of his adversaries has 50 found so far, pics and all!
Evidence is evidence, but he was just another fraud too. The difference is, there is proof that he was alive at the time, unlike JC with no proof at all.
I'll try to watch the rest of the videos when I find time.
I'll let you know if I get indoctrinated with the devilish propoganda, okay?
Don't hold your breath. I don't think there's room for both of us in the pit of deception. I've been there, and I ain't goin' again.
Closed your mind for god Brenda?
I wouldn't have though NatGeo would have fitted in with even your version of devilish?
Sidebar: Brenda, what do you think Earnest would do if he wound up in heaven. Than would be soooo funny!!!
Give me a few days Earnest... I will get historical documented proof of Jesus existence...
earnest--changing his mind and goin' to heaven?
That would be so radically awesome!
It could happen.
Saul became Paul.
Doubting Thomas got to touch the Lord.
The Holy Spirit has been changing lives and hearts for ages. Radical!
All things are possible through God.
Yes they are!
He can take a miserable soul and uplift it. I've experienced it and seen it happen, haven't you?!
He can give Life where there is only death.
He can do anything!
Deceived /Blind perhaps would be a better word.
Intellect and status is a value that the world aspires too.
Intellect alone will not make anyone happy,or complete.
Neither will status and fame.
God seeks a sincere heart first. (And all those (other things) will be added unto you)
Wisdom comes from God and it is His knowledge that impresses me.
No, they are on the money Kiwi..... these guys have done the research... try and challenge it with facts and see how well it stands up.
As usual I see no attempt by religionists to know or learn anything new.
Learning is two way street ,my friend.
The problem is accepting truth (as we each decide,etc).
I dont deny there are many ,many people out there who are bright,smart,decorated with all kinds of brilliance and talents etc.
But does it mean they are correct ,maybe -maybe not.
after reading all your posts, earnest, for you to say that your experience was fraudulent doesn't surprise me but it also does not give you the right to judge everyone elses' experience as being the same as yours. Obviously there are christians that are having success with God and the probable cause of this is:
Your experience does not give you the right to claim that christianity is all bulldust neither does it give you creedence to say that God does not exist.
Have fun children, the gig is up!
Ya got the wrong son of god, in the wrong myth dincha?
Hey Earnest. Thanks for encouraging us to have fun. I really enjoy being one of God's children.
Good for you! I really enjoy being one of my parents children and having life lived in reality.
How did your parents arrive here on earth Earnest?
The same way yours and everyone else's parents........ good old fashioned lust...... the stuff of reproduction.
Lol God created people. We definitely did not evolve from nothing and appeared here on earth. That's the point I was making.
A point that is mute, as the only god is in your head, and getting it's instructions from the part of your brain that deals with your fear.
Ignorance by choice will allow you to run this old tape forever if you are careful to avoid any factual information along the way. Read up on the secret bible yet?
Your JC was just another fraud and huckster apparently.
No, I don't need to waste time reading a secret bible. The holy bible is the only true living word I need. I respectfully disagree with your post.
Ill take a look at that vid... is it the "The bibles buried secrets" by nova, pbs? found on youtube. There's like 13 parts to it.
The bible doesn't really offend many...it's the hypocrites who claim its virtues but display none of them that get on peoples nerves.
The bible does not really offend. But the people get offended because of the teachings and virtues it imposes that no one seems to agree.
The great teaching and virtue "kill the gentiles" or "gentiles are dogs", offends me.
May be thats your motto.
That kinda thing is in almost everyone's daily newspaper and all over the Internet,but do you quit reading the newspaper or logging on to the world wide web.
No -I didnt think so!
Mark 7:27 :- But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Sorry I didn't read today's paper, so have no idea what your contemporary bible ordered. But if these are still the virtues in bible, I prefer American Psycho or Exquisite Corpse
But you are the one who is blind.
You just described war and isnt that how American are percieved ny many nations,plundering and murdering innocent people in the name of their god
Do they not hold hand over heart in the name of 'Their nation'?
(As do all nations who war!)
Anyone can quote the OT testament as you have done ,but to be objective (as people will with todays events -historically,hopefully).
All men and women will be accountable therefore for how they live and who they serve ultimately.
There will be no excuses such as ,well what about ...such n such and this n that?
God will be interested in You and what do you say ...
Except at the time of Bush, I didn't know it was done in the name of god. American founding fathers were not religious(at least they didn't want it in the constitution.)
You mean objectively? OBJECTIVELY? and HISTORICALLY?
If you read it objectively and historically you'll know that most stories are nothing but fabrications, including your precious gospels. And there is nothing but magic and nonsense.
Accountable?? It all depends on what the person thinks and the condition of law and order in the place they reside and nothing else
May I ask which god? I have heard about so many!!
Take you pick!
Its really the sincerity Gods looking for anyway
Sincerity of what?
Again which god?
Some names I have heard as gods are Zeus, Krishna, Brahma, Vishnu, Allah, Amenhotep, Allah, Inti, Ahuiateteo, Buddha, Confuscious, Jehovah, Elohim, Baal....
What is god?
Not, what is God
Who is God to you?.
I already know who He is to me
When you are interested ,you will find him as well.
If not, well your choice.
Hallucinations are not my cup of tea.
I don't intend to find conceptual beings.
A lot of words which says a bunch of nothing
Havent you heard of the K.I.S.S principle
You keep it stupid, an imaginary being who controls everything, who's supposed intelligence is subnormal to human.
I keep it simple, there is only space and atoms, rest are all opinion.!
Well you certainly spend alot of time on the topic of a supposed 'Imaginary' being!
So who is the stupid one again ?
By the way ,what does an atom look like?
Where is YOUR evidence
No, your evidence,not someone elses?
Sorry for that, but I couldn't control. So? You think me as an idiot relativist who ask for evidence? When was the last time I asked you for evidence of your imaginary friend? Your subjective feelings are your own, keep it to yourself.
I will repeat the question so yo can understand, WHAT IS MEANT BY GOD? WHAT IS IT, IF IT IS AN 'IT'?
Atom is the smallest particle of matter, the indivisible thing that is in existence, if you understand "exist"(which, I presume, you won't) and it has a shape , most probably like a ball.
A basketball or a meatball? Are you sure it exists? So much in your world doesn't exist.
Have you actually read the constitution or studied the history books? Non Christian? Are you kidding?! They were incredibly religious which is why they left England so they could have freedom of religion.
Incredibly religious, the founding fathers?
The only reference to religion in the constitution.. "N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Your religion is based on lies, you are just maintaining the tradition.
Our founding fathers were not Christian. Are you sure YOU read the constitution? Thomas Jefferson did not even care for Christianity. He was a Diest.
Mark 7:27 :- But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
the dogs here are the samaritans. These are a mixed race of jews and babylonians and persians. Jews who married women of another race and created a hybrid race because they dwelt in samaria, they were called samaritans. The jews had no dealings with them, indeed to them they were as wild dogs.
Jesus here refers to his mission. Jesus was sent to the jewish people as we know. The children jesus mentions are the jews. If we read the next verses we discover that jesus, knew her heart and that he was eliciting a response from her.
It is not meant to be derogatory or slanderous.
As to the rest of your post, you have been here for a while and should know better by now that all such quotations merely spotlight the ignorance of the poster.
I am offended by the bible because jesus says ask and you shall receive. But, i still have to get up and go to work tomorrow. How fair is that?
Because You will never grow when you ask and given instantly.
One must Take action.....you were given hands, feet, eyes, etc. so that you can do things and learn.
You also are given free will .... take a vacation day or live off grid and lower the need for money .... it is within our choices that we obligate ourselves to the almighty dollar. I so wish that I had the choice to work ....my illness took that away, among many other choices. Thru my illness altho.... I have seen that when I had choices..I chose to work much and that It did pay the bills.....but I still wanted to live off grid...... I hope one day I can find a way now.
I was joking about the work thing. I am confused about free will though. Do we have free will or does god have a divine plan? I hear conflicting views. Some say both. That isn't possible. Free will and divine plan can't co-exist. It is one or the other. So basically, you either screw up your own life with free will or god screws it up with his divine plan. I don't know? I know i haven't made that many terrible decisions in my life so who is at fault?????
Kinda knew you were joshing:) Fault? Freewill? decisions? Divine plan? In my views there are (in this discussion) no faults....just experiences. Freewill is what you have everyday to make decisions. Divine plan isn't something I can speak much on ...as that would not be privy to me.
However 5 years ago I gave back my free will to God . I became more accepting of myself , which made me more content. My life became even more about listening for and to God, thus becoming more tolerant, patient, compassionate and understanding of others side , needs, wants and to give them what God has given me..... unconditional love and to be there on a personal friendship level. Considering all the faux pas I have made and priceless or worthless mistakes I have made... I still feel worthy of his love.... as God gave his only son and God has made me in his likeness .... thats enough for me
Fascinating question: I think it's mainly because people don't want to be told that what they are doing is bad, that they will wind up in hell for it. homosexuality seems to be a particularly tough case. how do you follow a religion that condems who you are at the deepest level? As someone trying to wade through the Bible now, the Old Testament is also a bit convoluted.
yes indeed. I am getting married Sept !7 to the love of my life, Her name is Kim and we are having to drive out of state to do this. I have wriiten a couple of emails to state my case ..in hopes that someday North Carolina will come aboard with allowing same sex marriages. God and Government have no place together...in my opinion. God is unconditional love, what ever is written that dictates (other than 10 commandments) has been tarnished by men with greed and controlling natures. God would never want hate, war, especially over Him and to hurt others in any way. Its all about ;etting yourself feel Gods love within yourself .......no one else can feel it, read it, write it or know it better than you ...and God
You are missing the whole point, it's about the sin. God hates all sin. People are not judging you saying they are better, we are all sinners. Have you ever thought that they may care about you and don't want you to go to hell? If you sin by being homosexual, you are not hurting them, they could be really concerned about you.
If you are an homosexual that is your business. Who are we too judge, I can't judge anyone neither could the next man. The only that can judge is our father up above. Your lifestyle is your life that the way you live. I may not like it, but we are all God childrens we suppose to love each other. Don't put judgement on our brothers and sister. I don't care what you do or how you live, I love you regardless, that is the word. Let God handle his business, don't do his job.
Wanting to save someone from spending eternity in hell is much more loving than encouraging them to sin because you don't want to appear to judge them.
It's the same as mans laws. IF someone commits a crime, the fact that they don't feel it was wrong, does not change the fact that it is wrong.
Let's conveniently ignore 'judge not lest ye be judged'. It makes life so much more fun. Don't you think?
Unfortunately, the appearance is thinly veiled, and yes, evangelizing your religion IS judging them.
Care is in the perspective of the giver, I care that others care and would never want to offend them. Personally no one has stated to me they care of my being damned to hell , maybe because the ones that truly know me , know I have a very personal relationship with God or maybe they know I would not listen or maybe they don't really care. It sincerely was a choice for me, I decided to choose to be happy ( as of a year ago) I was content but never happy being straight. I never would even look in that direction because of southern baptist and holy rollers that made it hellish and not accepted. As I became closer to God and talked with God... it became apparant that God has no issues with love, honor, respect, compassion, giving of ones self with, patience, tolerance and helpful ways to make others feel love...love of God, self and others. However while reading in the bible.....seems the worst to contend with were greed, lust, arrogance , selfishness, jealousy that lead to murders and disrespect for Gods land and Gods children ..... my own twist would be......hard to love the tax collector and whores.. but they are very hard to love..... ha ha But yeah we need to love all..... makes for a happier world that God could be proud of.
The reason why a lot of people find the Bible is offensive is because they don't know who God is and what he stand for. Yes I find that in the Bible it can be very intimidated far as reading a verse or two. However when reading the Bible you need to take your time. Read and Study the word. Because if you only read you won't get anything out of it. When you study the word you will always remember what God is saying.
To ChristianReeca, with all due respect, the bible does not condemn people that are homosexuals - but instead- points out that it is an offense and an abomination against God. I was formely under the impression that people were not "born" with a particular bent. But, as time has gone on, my views have changed. I believe a person can be born with sinful tendencies. Here's a verse that says so...
"Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalms 51:5).
With that being the case, just because a person is born with a lust toward a particular sin does not make it "correct" or "right". Ultimately, we are not who we are because of the circumstances around us, no, we BECOME who we are through our choices. A man or woman that is a practicing/experimental homosexual CAN change. Because people before them have been delivered from such practices. And if even ONE person has changed - just one - it's possible for everyone else to change as well. The issue with some people whom are homosexual but claim "this is who I am, take me or leave me" is they really DON'T want to change. They don't view what they are doing as an offense against God, assuming they believe in God in the first place. Also, being homosexual shouldn't define who a person is. You mentioned it is who some people are at their "deepest level". I am a person operating in many different functions. Son, brother, cousin, nephew, employee, etc., I'm sure you get the point.
Many people on this board have talked about not "judging" people. I get the spirit of what you are saying but judging a person and giving them practical advice is not the same. It almost seems like some people on this board are saying, in effect, if you disagree with my lifestyle, and vocalize it., you are judging me. That's absurd. Now obviously, there are people that are homophobic in the Christian community and their words/actions may leave a sour taste in the mouth of the person on the receiving end of those words/actions, but not all. While there are some Christians that may, as some have suggested, "throw the book" at you; not all Christian's "beat" people over the head with scripture. And, for the sake of the ones who don't, but still disagree with homosexuality, you should hear them out. But, for the most part, I don't really see that happening.
It's no secret that I don't believe in the homosexual lifestyle. I feel it goes against the natural order of things. It's a sin. But a sin no greater or worse than any other sin. In closing, nobody goes to the Lake of Fire for their "sin". They go because they reject Jesus.
Could Caiaphas have not said the same thing to Jesus? You appear to be cloaking yourself in self-rightousness instead of looking at the plank in your own eye. It is a very nuanced thing in terms of what you should say about what the Bible defines as sin but my take away from Jesus is that he attacked those who judged..... worry about yourself and God worry about the others. Everybody in America has the information. We all know what the Bible says. Yet many Christians OBSESSIVELY continue to preach in every conversation.
Unfortunately, as with politics, religious discussions tend to turn into a cherry-picking contest. There is much wisdom attributed to Jesus. Stick to it in your personal life and everyone will see the fruit of your tree. But don't judge. Don't point fingers.
To Suburban Poet, I am not sure if your response was to me or not, if it was, here's my response. I agree with everything you had to say, for the most part. Actions go way further then words ever could. With that said, the intention behind my posting wasn't to be "self-rightoues". It was just a reply to a subject I felt strongly about. I ended my writings with "homosexuality being no worse than any other sin". In God's eyes sin is sin, no matter what it is. As a spiritual being, living in a natural world, I do my best to subscribe to the same belief. As far as the information in the bible? Sure the bible is, arguably, one of the most well-known and oldest books in the world, yet not everyone does HAVE the information.
Not everyone, despite how articulate their support or objections to the homosexual lifestyle, has studied the scriptures. The book is out there, true, but what good does it do a person if it does nothing but collect dust on the coffee stand? That isn't an indictment on anyone, rather it's me mentioning something that's apparent. God did say that we are to examine ourselves, as you've said, before we can properly call someone else out on anything. My intention, as a believer, is not to "expose" anyone. But instead, it is just to give my viewpoint on the matter. I am not a "closet" hater of anyone, no matter what they choose to do, right or wrong.
But, however, I wanted to respond just to clear any misconceptions up on my part. And I do appreciate your words.
Mr Charisma - yes I was responding to you. I appreciate your level-headed response. Maybe you are just talking about it but life today is very much about tolerance and diversity. It's not just homosexuality. In America it's also about race, gender and yes religion. We are still working on it. Ask Muslims in America how they feel. To me the idea of segregation and discrimination is old school thinking and pointing fingers at homosexuals is the last frontier of true civil rights for all. It's just the way it is. It is my impression that Jesus or Paul or whomever said we are all sinners. It basically means we all have something to answer for and in that regard I am the same as anyone else including gays. I do not feel I have the right to make anyone feel uncomfortable about who they are. The fact is I cannot even begin to think why a private affair between gays is hurtful to anyone. Stealing or killing are obvious sins because of the hurt involved. To say homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so is not enough for me. Besides it is my understanding that homosexuality is not mentioned even once in the Gospels. What does that tell you?
I will be honest. I would be disappointed if one of my children announced they were gay; but I would still love them. Homosexual activity is not something that I would ever consider; I am somewhat of an old school macho guy from South Texas and the whole idea of it is repellant. But that is my life and my opinion. If that is the way I feel then I don't do it. You know? But that is where it ends; it ends with my life... it does not bleed into yours or anyone else's.
As for the Bible collecting dust, certainly that is the case for many people but it is undisputed to most folks that homosexuality is considered to be a sin and we all know the source of that judgment.
This will be the last time I will post in this thread, mostly because I've expressed my opinions on the matter, everyone knows where I stand, and I don't want to write reply after reply, it just comes off as argumentative. It especially comes off that way when I am replying to other Christians, since we are supposed to be united and not "poking holes" in each other's arguments. Correcting someone or sharing your viewpoint is good, sure, but we all can sense when the tide shifts beyond that.
To amymarie_5, the bible doesn't say "employees", yet it does use "bond-servants" and "slaves". Your question is self-serving I believe. And it is an issue of semantics. Obviously, those reading the Bible nowadays would interpret those words as "employees" since we are living in a different time. However, the Bible's teachings and principles are as true as they ever were. The language of the Bible perfectly reflects the time frame in which it was written. Could God have said "employees", sure? But I'm not totally convinced that would have appeased you. You obviously are an atheist. Judging by your post, you probably would have found something else "glaringly" obvious to point out to "discredit" God. I don't mean that in a vicious or vindictive way, just calling it like I see it.
The Bible never said slavery was okay, rather, it said that no matter what condition a person found themselves in, slave or free, a person or person(s) should respect the authority that was established. That text is coming from Ephesians 6:5-9. Isn't the Gospel, or Good News, about love anyway - God's love? Someone does you wrong, you do them right. Because there is a greater reward in it for the person who isn't reactionary but responds well even under pressure.
To Suburban Poet, I totally agree with you. I'm on board for basically all that you said. I don't think we disagreed on much of anything. I will say this, most people know that God says that homosexual acts is a sinful practice. And basically, most people don't need to read the bible to have known that. But you need the bible to UNDERSTAND it. You pointed out murder and theft being basically "know better" sins, my words, not yours, sins that are moreorless understood to be undisputably offensive. I agree with that.
I really don't think two people can sit down and calmly and fairly discuss homosexuality without also bringing race and, to probably a greater extent, gender into the equation. While I should care, and do care, what goes on with my life, that doesn't absolve me from caring about others as well. Which is a Commandment of God. Since we are our brother's keeper.
Homosexuality doesn't directly involve my life, given that I am not in any pursuit of it but it does so, indirectly. Being a twenty-something year old African-American man, this issue takes on, possibly, a new meaning for me. Many whom are homosexual not only want many to agree with their lifestyle by casually or aggressively mentioning or displaying it. But also, have gone to the courts to have it LEGALLY sanctioned, marriage that is (California, New York spring to mind). That, in my opinion, is defiant. And it's a broad stroke. Many want to compare the Civil Rights Movement and Female Liberation with the Homosexual movement.
And it just isn't the same. You can't compare a sect of people fighting for "basic" rights. Rights that were, by birth, afforded to white males, to another group of people wanting leverage and to be seen as a "protected" class (more rights). It trivializes the blood, sweat, tears and efforts of so many before, and since. As much as I don't have the right to impose my views on others, because others may disagree with them, it works the other way around too. I hardly, if ever, give my views on homosexuality unless prompted to first do so. Once I'm promped, its fair game.
The Bible has to be "enough" for everyone because it is God's written word. Without his written word, it is impossible to know his will. As far as viewpoints, we have to allow it to change us, instead of the other way around (not saying you don't follow its teachings). I appreciate everyone's response on this issue, it was highly informational.
Men wrote the bible, not god. Sorry, but there it is. Nothing to show it is anything but old myths and hearsay written by anonymous authors. Unless you've got proof otherwise....
Well, you know what they say. A rolling stone grows no moss. Or an active mind grows no cobwebs.
So, you're right. There's definitely no growth of cobwebs in Randy's way of thinking.
And nothing but blustering and unsubstantiated claims on your end, BO.
no growth there either
I gave ya the chance to take the upper road and you missed it.
have a nice day
Mrcharisma, you are proving my point by telling me YOUR interpretation of the bible. That is the problem. To many Christians interpret the bible differently and that has wreaked havoc in the world for centuries! The witch hunts, slavery, discrimination against Jews, the crusades, the inquisition, holocaust and oppression of women is a direct result of how people interpreted the bible. If the bible is indeed the word of god then the book would not need interpretation. A just and loving god will basically allow people to torture and kill people because they interpreted gods word wrong? Sounds like your god is insane! And yes I'm an atheist and a former Christian. All the stuff you say I've heard before.
Are you saying 'slave' is the same as 'employee'? Are you saying there was no such thing as a paid employee? Do you even know what a slave is?
Why should a slave respect the God that made them slaves?
The only thing it appears to defy are the religious beliefs of the homophobic.
True, men wrote the Bible, but it was under the direction of God. Let's see, love your neighbors as yourself, don't steal, don't lie, don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't worry be anxious as if you have faith in God, he will take care of your needs...yeah, those are really things you should be offended by! LOL, I mean really, I don't understand how anyone could come away reading the bible being offended unless some of those things God is telling us not to do they want to do. If people really thinking about the things the Bible tells us to do and not do, it all contributes to love and peace. Not hate. If anyone is coming away from reading the bible with hate and judgment in their hearts, then they really didn't get a word of what it was saying.
Nope, there is nothing to show any of the bible was written under the direction of any god or gods. It sounds good to those wishing to believe it, but many of the early tales were around long before the christian god came on the scene.
The great flood story, for instance, was taken from The Epic of Gilgamesh which predated your bible by hundreds of years. Sorry, but you need to research the origins of your book a little more thoroughly.
@ Randy, funny how most Christians don't know anything about history isn't it? I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that none of then heard of Zeus or Dionysus. If they studied the old religions they would find some shocking similarities. Christianity is just a rip off of ancient paganism.
Christianity is a rip off the Torah which is 4,000 yrs old at jesus' period of time.
When the Roman Republic conquered Greece in 146 BC, it took much of Greek religion (along with many other aspects of Greek culture such as literary and architectural styles) and incorporated it into its own.
I am sure that the greek built upon some other belief Mainstream Greek religion appears to have evolved from the earlier Mycenaean religion from the Mycenaean civilization of Bronze Age Greece. The Mycenaeans, according to archaeological discoveries, seemed to treat Poseidon as the chief deity. It may also have absorbed the beliefs and practices of earlier, nearby cultures, such as Minoan religion.
The belief you speak against is far older than the belief you speak for, so, logically, one would have to say that the newer is taken from the older and not the other way around.
Well, AmyMarie. You would be wrong. I am a Christ follower, and I've heard of both Zeus and Dionysus. I'm also aware of the similarities between Christianity and other major religions. That doesn't change my beliefs, though, or make my faith in the Way any weaker. Sorry. I know the comment wasn't directed at me. I just had to speak up. Not all Christ followers are as ignorant and closed-minded as you assume.
So - despite the fact that you know Christianity was basically stolen from earlier myths, and know that there is no contemporary evidence of Jesus (in fact - he was most likely not an actual person at all, but a composite created later.) And the fact that this Jesus person was only deified and a unified religion created in 325 AD - you still refuse to acknowledge these facts and - still cling to your belief and claim to follow Christ - even though this person most likely did not exist.
Believing nonsense in the face of facts that disprove it is not actually being open minded, you know.
As to the original question, "Why, in your opinion, does the bible offend so many?" ...I would humbly submit the answer is simple and may be found in Isaiah 55:8 where it says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord."
Yeah - holier than thou pronouncements that - "You just wouldn't understand," tend to be offensive. This is a minor example though - there are many more offensive passages.
So... You're offended because God thinks he might be a little holier than you? mmmm! Can you create a flower or a fish or set a planet in orbit around the sun?
Evolution and galactic formation can create those things, respectively.
Wow! Your God can do all that?!
Answer me this...since your God is awesome enough to perform galactic feats as you described:
Can your God feed the starving children of THIS planet?
There is more than enough food on this planet to feed ALL of the children!
God is awesome, loving and wise.
So whats gone wrong -Oops
Guess mankind screwed up again
This level of indoctrination is quite DISTURBING.
No matter how many times it has been pointed out that your explanation of this conundrum is based upon willful ignorance...some of you still, arrogantly, regurgitate the same old ridiculous, irrational nonsense. Some of you believers seem to be in a trance.
It is apparent that some people will abdicate their own common sense, just to keep their imaginary God from getting angry at them.
And since God is only imaginary...believers are holding their INTELLECT in a self imposed PRISON!
More than enough food for everyone, yes. But there are still STARVING children all over the world! What an awesome god to provide so much and then let poor children all over the world die anyway. Nice.
How can you say God LET the die ,when its clear he already filled the earth with food? (even you admit that is correct as well)
It is evident that man's greed gets in the way.
He is an awesome God!
I'll agree with you that it's our inhumanity that generates most world suffering.
Eaglewiki, I know you're smarter than this. Yes I get it there's plenty of food but people are still starving. For god to put enough food as you say and not help those who are starving then he is not a wonderful god. Are you saying a perfect and awesome god that can do anything can't save these children? Are you also suggesting the greed of man is more powerful than gods love? After all your blaming humans for all the starving people in the world and god obviously is not doing anything about it. I have sponsored children in third world countries and let me tell you something, if you could just understand the suffering in these countries it proves that god is just a myth. No kind and loving father would ever let his children suffer that way.
Here in north america, we are blessed indeed, because at one time our population believed in the God of the bible to the point of putting prayer in school, attending church regularly, wearing clothes that were not revealing - the bikini was not standard swimwear until 1950 and even then it was a modest one piece. TV shows were innocent and the public opinion was so inclined to believe that rock n roll was the devils music. Although some of societies practices were not all that christian, the majority of families believed in the God of the bible.
God says "abide in my ways and ye shall be blessed".
Third world countries are a much different situation.
As was mentioned by eaglewiki, food is abundant as God put it there to feed mankind but in nations where less godly people run the show, the grain stops a few miles down the road from its intented destination. I will also just mention that Ethiopia, the source of the nile river has so many damns on it that parts of this river trickle where once they overflowed. Its kind of like the amazon when viewed on a map, the lush green area depicting jungle is down to about half the size and we know that areas larger than football fields are being burned everyday to make room for cattle because humankind does not eat smart or healthy as it should.
Grocery stores, super markets garbage tonnes of food year round.
But blame God because there are starving people, lol.
We need to be careful when we blame God for what people do. Remember that anyone can at anytime repent and be accepted by God and learn His ways and "their land shall be healed". It boils down to who is running the show, man or God.
So America is blessed because at one time we believed in god and women didn't dress like sluts. Lol. Please, this country also had slavery legal at one time. But I guess god can overlook that since we believe in him. That is ridiculous!
And then you imply that third world countries are being punished. Why? Because nobody told them about god??? That's not really fair is it? I'm not blaming god for this. I don't believe in god so that really wouldn't make sense would it?
I think there was a compliment in there somewhere lol.
Ok if we leave God out of the question for moment and
look at the facts:
Earth is bountiful and produce is plentiful.
Some people have much
Some people have little
There is enough food collectively to feed everyone plus...
The problem is mankind.
Yes, believers often do that when it suits their purposes, hence they begin from a position of dishonesty and everything they claim about God is spurious.
Please provide the citations in which you claim there is enough food collectively to feed everyone as that is crucial to your argument.
http://www.oxfam.org/pressroom/pressrel … d-food-day
There is enough food grown in the world for everyone. And yet we remain stuck in a food crisis. Half the world’s food is lost as waste and a billion people – one in every six of the world’s poorest – cannot access enough of the other half and so go hungry every day. Our leaders have another chance to put that right.
Of course there are several other organisations that support these facts too.
Ok troubled your turn to step up and prove there IS not enough food on the Earth?
There is no such thing as god. Religionists telling me they understand something I would not understand is offensive - yes. This is why your religion has caused so many conflicts.
You sound like a reasonable man. And you have chosen to take two positions concerning our subject; (1) that God does not exist and (2) that you are offended by those who suggest that he does exist. Let me ask you this... Just supposing God does exist and you haven't seen it yet, would you want to know the truth? If God himself revealed himself to you...not some religionist like me...would you want him to do so? If you do, I will ask him to show himself to you and we will see what happens.
Please stop lying at me.
I have taken the position that YOUR god does not exist. For numerous reasons.
I also take offense at people - like YOU - who tell me that god sez I simply would not understand.
Sorry you are not capable of grasping this. You are simply incapable of understanding.
If your Invisible Super Being decided to reveal Himself to me - as I have asked It to - I feel sure I would not be able to deny it.
Sadly - all I get is nonsense from religionsts such as you that persuade me I am correct.
Which is why your religion has caused so many conflicts. People like you. You.
That sounds like a "yes" to me so I will ask him. Until later, then. Peace to you always.
Little wonder your beliefs cause so many wars and so much hatred.
judging by your harshness to the question and snide posts, you have taken offense. Yet those same words to a believer or someone open to the idea would embrace them and "more civil" discourse would occur.
So the offense you perceive to be coming at you is in reality coming from you.
This is why you blame our beliefs for causing wars and hatred is because the hatred you contain toward our beliefs, you don't mind manifesting continually - is this not projectionism at its finest. So, stop making wars with the believers, live your own life and stop spreading your hatred and have a nice day.
Sound of the buzzer, old friend
I have yet to see you utter one civil word, cousin. I suggest you start practicing what you preach - you may get a better conversion rate.
That whole thing was civil!
Once again though you have taken offense and because of that defense you lash out! This is why your belief causes so many wars, yknow.
Thanks for proving my point.
Of course it offends, not because it's offensive or meant to be offensive, but in a rebellious world the holy truth is offensive.
The bible is not Holy, nor is it the Truth.
And it is totally offensive. First of all it insults anyone with an once of intellect!
Fine, you are entitled to your opinion, even though I do not agree.
an once of intellect.. i think you meant ounce, Einstein
guess that strikes you off the list.
You wanna read a book about hiroshima and nagasaki if you want to be grossed out.. or check some of the roman and greek myths if you want to read about people who actually burnt their babies. Perhaps it will stop the smear campaign about Gods people who did not burn their babies to sacrifice to their God.
That's funny.... (don't be offended Getitrite)
I know how to spell "OUNCE"
That was a typo. But thanks for being so keen as to point that out. You are so excellent!
I guess you were too busy pointing out my typo to actually read and understand my comment. This is totally evasive irrelevant nonsense.
Why do you need to turn the focus onto something else in order to make your psychotic beliefs seem humane? No matter how many times you do this, your beliefs are heinous, and a complete insult to the intellect!
Please check my spelling and punctuation. Thanks!
You're welcome for typo check. I thought you might get a chuckle.
So you couldn't fit my post into the context of your own post.
That's why you are so off the list.
Maybe you should read your posts after you type them just to be sure you actually want to say what you said, but perhaps you were just too busy venting your anger to care. It seems you are a never ending resource of anger that just needs to be vented.
There is no way that we could provide proof of what ANY one said 2000 years ago. What I need is proof that Jesus NEVER did say anything.
So you wish me to prove a negative for you? Who kept up the guy's exact words for decades until the first quotations claimed to be JR.'s were printed in the Greek language? Or how about the next claimant's version which was printed even longer after the death of the supposed messiah?
Can you prove my god Moe doesn't like you?
There are no writings from Jesus that have been found to date. Nor has there been found any documents that would indicate a personal scribe wrote anything he said either..yet..
Jesus spoke Aramaic (noted as this is how people knew he was Nazerene) Yet every document we have that contain what was supposed to have been said by Jesus are all written in Greek. The Gospels themselves weren't written until 30-50 years after he was reported as being cruxified.
This doesn't prove that he did or didn't say anything. However, since we have nothing from his actual time period, it does cast doubt as the the validity of the gospels actually containing words of Jesus himself.
Hey DS, in my research of religions of the world, there were 4 books written by Jesus. However, these books were never allowed to be examined by anyone outside of the church? And, during the "dark ages", those books were destroyed, but what isn't confirmed is who or how the books were destroyed. The church was accused of destroying them, but nothing was proven.
But, from what I did learn, bits and pieces of those 4 books were translated and put into Christianity, but not put into Hebrew religion.
Interesting. Where did you find references to this?
Hey Mark, from other research done by Frank R. Wallace. He made mention of it, but like I said, since no one outside the "church" was allowed to examine them. It's possible that the books didn't exist at all, but the "church" when asked, made claims that some was put into Christianity, which can be found in the NT, but also that the "church" refused to answer any other questions with regards to the books, such as the who destroyed them or how the books were destroyed.
Hmm..This might explain why certain things were added to the bible around the 1600's and can't be found in any text prior to that timeframe...
I will have to research into this information. Thanks Cags.
Pretty tenuous then. My research suggests Jesus was not a real person and was actyally a composite.
The church destroyed a lot of knowledge that is for certain, but - I have never found any such reference.
I heard they just stored it away in the catcombs under the vatican, but hey there are a lot of books they allowed to be out, pseudepigraphas, apocrypha - none of which made canon.
I am so glad we have your research to compare the bible too.
terrible typo... do you often post that hastily? You and getitrite should check each others posts.
Umm, you've got a typo there yourself BO. Should we all start running around checking for spelling and grammatical errors? If so; might I recommend the book 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves'? You could benefit tremendously.
Yes I notice your typos are pure.
They need to be... they are in almost every post you make. Pot kettle in this one as well!
If abuse and lying about others were a sin, you would probably be buried up to your neck in it!
I would like to know more about that.
I have seen nothing myself that is reported to have been written by Jesus. At least nothing authentic.
If you happen to remember where you came across that information, I would appreciate the information.
There were lots of "Christian" writings destroyed during 302-305CE timeframe. The only thing that I have found that might be of Jesus himself, is the Gospel of Thomas, which is just sayings of Jesus. But, the timeperiod it was written is kinda sketchy at best. And of course the "church" felt it wasn't real, which is why it never actually made it into the final canon.
i suffer a stigmatic astral connection with whom i know, am a human living in this devotion to speak through its words..
did someone in this world seen the true HIM? or such an illusion or an energy stored because of faith?! i read all written in bible all that connect to reality. am not HIM but am a human living this mortal stage of life.. see you in afterlife. if you want to the word he speak its a sign of destruction and a nature new formation of world.
The bible offends:
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
Apparently super-duper-man has got an anger management problem with his enemies!
He also wiped out great pieces of the planet recently and I guess he is to blame for the fires in Texas as well as the destruction in Japan.
Or..... the whole thing is a pile of neurotic fantasy dreamed up by a bunch of ignorant psychopaths perhaps.
BUT earnestshub ( HUGE KICK IN THE BUTT)
GOD REALLY REALLY REALLY LOVES YOU!!!
LOVE THE CAPS Castlepaloma! Makes me feel right at home. I had a religionist write me an email in caps that was near as long as the bible.... I appreciated it at the time, as I couldn't find my reading glasses.
They write with such hairy palm anyways and maybe their knuckles are still dragging on the ground from not evolving
watch it.... you're getting close to violating policies... be careful
So, it's perfectly acceptable for you to say things against atheists and then claim it was all a joke when others are insulted, but if it's the other way round, it's violating policies.
11th Commandment - "Do as I say, not as I do."
I thought the 11th Commandment was
Keep thy Region to thy self
They can't help themseleve, if we don't obey, we will all be tortured for enterity. Fine free will that is.
If they can't master this life, how in the hell are they going to master the afterlife?
Well I know it cover to cover like many non-believers, and that is why we are non-believers in many cases.
Below is one of hundreds of examples of the insanity inherent to the bible that clearly indicates a psychotic entity.
"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)
(Doesn't it seem really stupid that an all-powerful God claims he can bring food and grapes to the masses but he can't even feed himself?)
The tithes went into the temple to care for the priests. The tribe of Judah didn't work. Their entire job was to take care of the temple and to minister unto the Lord. The other 11 tribes brought their tithes to feed the priests and their families.
When are you going to come out of the Old Testament? Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Old Testament sacrifices etc. are no longer applicable.
We now live under the law of love. We no longer need priests to intercede for us we have direct access to God through the blood of Jesus.
God was full of judgement in the Old Testament. The New Testament ushered in a new dispensation, the dispensation of grace. Our sins are covered under the blood of Jesus who is God's sacrificial lamb.
God's grace stays His hand of judgement.
No, god was psychotic in the old testament.
The NT did not usher in a new god, it just attempted to sanitise the old one.
The christian disconnect from the OT is only applied by interpretation of such words as hate to mean love. A word soup for all occasions.
earnestshub - Psychotic really? Dangerous due to mental illness? Really? You were way off base on the tithing issue. You seem to be lashing out here. It would have been nice to actually carry on a discussion but you are stinking things up with your broad and crass comments. Inflammatory and mean also seem to fit.
You don't find psychotic passages in the bible to be psychotic?
Do you want to discuss psychosis then?
By psychotic I assume you mean a person who ignores the truth in favor of pumping out is party line...
or perhaps you mean actual psychosis - a psychiatric disorder such as schizophrenia or mania that is marked by delusions, hallucinations, incoherence, and distorted perceptions of reality
There seems to be plenty of that about. :-)
Well - we are in the religion forum where peopel claim to hear voices in their head and see Invisible Super Beings.
Hard to get a better definition of psychosis that that.
This is why you cause so many conflicts. Majik over reality will do it every time.
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."
Nothing inflammatory or mean in your majik book - is there?
Since you didn't give the reference of the verse you seem to quote I can't find it in a better translation. If you provide the reference I will comment on the verse. I am certain that the context or setting or situation along with more modern words will shed light on this.
Usually it is a matter of understanding what is really going on historically. Taking a random verse to make the Bible or God look Whacky is like taking a person's comments out of context. Like political spin doctors do. You know what I mean? They twist comments or extract what suits them whether it is accurate or not.
No - I understand it just fine thank you. Usually it is a matter of lying for Jesus (TM) and attempting to twist what the bible says to mean something else.
No wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Wow...that's a bit testy. But then again you survival of the fittest types are prone to that behavior. When reasoning doesn't work simply lash out.
By the way, WWII was started by Adolph Hitler. He was a stanch evolutionist. Let's see then you have Stalin and the entire Soviet on your side too, right? I think its a human thing.
If he steps out of the OT he loses whatever perceived credibility he thinks he has.
Here's a modern English translation of the text you quoted earnest:
“Will earthling man rob God? But YOU are robbing me.” And YOU have said: “In what way have we robbed you?” “In the tenth parts and in the contributions. 9 With the curse YOU are cursing [me], and me YOU are robbing—the nation in its entirety. 10 Bring all the tenth parts into the storehouse, that there may come to be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this respect,” Jehovah of armies has said, “whether I shall not open to YOU people the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out upon YOU a blessing until there is no more want.” 11 “And I will rebuke for YOU the devouring one, and it will not ruin for YOU the fruit of the ground, nor will the vine in the field prove fruitless for YOU,” Jehovah of armies has said.
This was written to the Jews. They had a set of laws and observances that included bringing the tenth of the field and flock to the temple to support the temple arrangement. The tithe was set up to sustain the Levites. Here's an excerpt from a dictionary clarifying the issue of tithing.
"These tithing laws binding on Israel were not excessive. Nor should it be overlooked that God promised to prosper Israel by opening “the floodgates of the heavens” if his tithing laws were obeyed. (Mal 3:10; De 28:1, 2, 11-14) When the people became negligent as to tithing, the priesthood suffered, for the priests and Levites were forced to spend their time in secular work and consequently neglected their ministerial services. (Ne 13:10) Such unfaithfulness tended to bring about a decline in true worship. Sadly, when the ten tribes fell away to calf worship, they used the tithe to support that false religion. (Am 4:4, 5) On the other hand, when Israel was faithful to God and was under the rule of righteous administrators, tithing for the Levites was restored, and true to God's promise, there were no shortages.—2Ch 31:4-12; Ne 10:37, 38; 12:44; 13:11-13.
Under the Law there was no stated penalty to be applied to a person failing to tithe. God placed all under a strong moral obligation to provide the tithe; at the end of the three-year tithing cycle, they were required to confess before him that the tithe had been paid in full. (De 26:12-15) Anything wrongfully withheld was viewed as something stolen from God.—Mal 3:7-9."
I hope this excerpt clarifies things for you earnesthub. The tithing arrangement was a loving way to "keep the lights on" in the temple and feed the temple servants. Does it make sense that a big organization needs some income? By the way, Isrealites could give money if that was more convenient for them
By the way, this arrangement was voluntary. No one kept accounts. It was done from the heart. There was no penalty for NOT tithing. In the scriptural reference you quoted God was simply admonishing a dedicated people to live up to their dedication for their own benefit not his. Generosity in generosity out. He was saying that he would bless them if they simply did the least required. Instead they were not supporting the arrangement which is why they were being chastised. It was a wake up call.
Sure, I have seen this in bible study, but you seem to miss the point of god's claim to omniscience and omnipotence.
So I guess this is just a friendly reminder too then?
"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
You again fail to understand the context and meaning. Here's the same verse with the preceding verse added:
2 “And it must occur in that day,” is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, “[that] I shall cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they will no more be remembered; and also the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness I shall cause to pass out of the land. 3 And it must occur [that] in case a man should prophesy anymore, his father and his mother, the ones who caused his birth, must also say to him, ‘You will not live, because falsehood is what you have spoken in the name of Jehovah.’ And his father and his mother, the ones who caused his birth, must pierce him through because of his prophesying."
In context you can see that God was talking about false prophets. He was going to do away with idols "and also the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness I shall cause to pass out of the land." Those in Israel who were on God's side would help in this cleaning even if the false prophet were their own son.
It is important to know the context before using scriptures to prove a point. Without context one can find himself making erroneous, (incorrect, based on an incorrect assumption, or containing something that is incorrect) statements. Like you have done two times now. I haven't bothered to read your comments to others. Perhaps you have done it more than twice.
Anyway, the scripture you quote is not a friendly reminder (though I suppose that was sarcasm on your part). It was a warning to those dedicated Israelites who were taking a stand against God.
I suggest you go look up the word "psychotic."
Stand against God and you will be murdered.
And you worship this thing?
Well its been strange and meaningless talking to you two mean people. I'll let you go kick someone else around now.
Yes - I can see how honesty and straight talk would seem strange and meaningless to you. Go on back to your Invisible Super Being.
a good decision blue.
I think the pigs ate your pearls
I'd suggest you look up the definition of worship, but you won't find the biblical meaning there: appreciation.
There is so much to appreciate God for. I am glad that we are not under the OT dispensation of law, judgment, sentencing and punishment.
I am glad that Christ died for everyone.
I am glad that He picked me.
Nonsense cousin. No one died for anyone.
War mongers such as yourself have been cause conflict for centuries. It is time to stop.
isaiah 53 - messianic chapter written 725 yrs prior to christ.
psalm 22 - messianic also, 1,020 yrs prior to christ.
Christ died around 33ad.
If this is an imaginary story, it has some startling roots.
If you'd stop coming in the door we would have less warmongering.
Its time to stop.
not murdered but destroyed forever because... you simply do not meet the requirements for eternal life. Its not because God relishes the death of the wicked but in order to keep the life he wants for his children that he spent so much time and effort training, God needs to send all unprepared, unqualified unetceteras on that slippery slope to the lake of fire.
You are blind to the obvious. The context changes nothing at all about this psychotic quote.
The truly powerful have no need to threaten like a whining 3 year old girl, they can get what they want to happen without force of any kind, and certainly would be above threatening parents and children because of their beliefs.
No......... that is the behaviour of a weak fool at best.
The threat clearly shows the psychosis.
Look whose whining now.
Mean spirited, unfriendly, unkind...
Once I met a man like you in person...he told me he was from an intellectually elite group and that my belief system was basically indicative of a lower intellect or a sub developed strain of human being. His of course being the higher level.
When he was finished pontificating, I told him that it was a shame that the higher order of intellect, the truly advanced percentile of human development had lost kindness and love. I told him I couldn't wait to leave his presence as it was so caustic.
What's up with someone like you being so smart and advanced yet to sarcastic and caustic? It seems that evolution is taking us down the wrong path...
I live with my grandchildren, so get and give love all day every day. Living with love means excluding the sort of religious abuse you would bring to the table.
You have not met with me or someone like me because I would not tolerate your attitude for more than 30 seconds in person and would not allow you near my grandchildren either.
My nature is to be kind ....... my life verifies that fact.
"that is the behavior of a weak fool at best"
You forget that we are human beings. And you think that God has to be less than we are.
Just because you failed you think we all should fail. Just because you couldn't figure out how to please God, you don't want anyone too. Instead of a great love that extends to all, you chose to love only a specific few. Instead of being honest with God you chose to lie to yourself.
And now you claim to be happier.... clearly some part of you is still tortured or else you would not be here.
Your psychosis is plainly on the table. You fool no one. This is not an attack but merely, psychology 101.
That problem is brothery you do not understand psychology 101!
I don't want my family growing up worshipping a hateful invisible being, or having to tell lies to justify their indoctrinated beliefs.
That's only because that's all YOU are able to teach them.
You would teach them a false doctrine based upon your failure and prejudice; not upon bible truths.
There is a very small percentage of people, if any, that follow God because he hates, common sense should tell you that.
If you perceive christians as telling lies well perhaps that is just their lack of study into matters that are incorrect, a certain naive innocence if you will, or your harsh judgment upon people to whom you can never say, Oh that makes sense, too.
Psychology: explanations for human behavior. You are an open book.
what a blunderous interpretation
you should write a book
"an unlimited number of ways to misinterpret any bible passage"
I allow my children to learn, as I do my grandchildren. A totally new concept to someone who brainwashes children in to religious fantasy.
The schools we have do not teach your religion to kids, they learn to enjoy their childhood without some boogie man telling them a pile of lies.
I somewhat agree with that. Children should be allowed to enjoy their childhood. Parents should set the example. I think it best that children are told about the God that ruled their parents lives and brought them up so good when they are old enough.
Children should never attend sunday school.
But the indoctrination you describe is too totally ascribe the goodness to the humanity of the parents, which may take a sharp decline of appreciation when they find out santa does not exist and some nice christian person explained a few questions they asked.
I think it is necessary for anyone who believes in the Bible to pick and choose the nice bits, of which there are many, especially in the New Testament. Jesus seems to have been a nice kind of guy, and much better than His dad. He preached peace and love and turning the other cheek. If only the world could live by such standards, then it would be a much better place. If however, someone chooses to believe all of the Bible, which few Christians actually do, then they would have to believe in a god who demands that the brains of babies are dashed out upon the rocks, and who approves of slavery and genocide. To believe in the angry god of the Old Testament would lead to a very poor idea of morality and a savage and brutal world. I think it is time Christians ignored the Old Testament and instead concentrated on the message of peace in the New Testament.
A dead giveaway that both the OT and NT were written by men and not inspired by gods at all.
The reason I believe that the Bible offends some people is because it's the "Truth" and they can't handle the "truth". It makes people see inside themselves and they may not like what they see so the easiest thing to do is ignore God's word, therefore it becomes offensive to them. He gave us the Bible so we could gain and use his words of wisdom in everyday life. I believe if more people read God's word we could do away with therapists, drugs, alcohol, depression, anxiety and so many other things that come from living a life not following him......just my opinion!
Your intolerance shows a lack of respect and ignorance!
Quite rude in fact.
It would be so mature if people could share their opinions without being critised or degraded.
Cags your attitude would not even be acceptable at a High school level.
Disappointing,but probably not surprising for the Internet.
AWWW - How hubristic of ya innit. LOLOLOL
On what planet do you live on? Last time I checked, it wasn't disrespectful to tell anyone that they have a lot to learn. It's actually a sign that they need to learn to be humble.
It's not rude at all. You just don't like it when people are smarter than you and inform you of it.
Criticism is a fact of life. Being degraded is a sign of self-esteem issues, if one perceives that they are be degraded.
Actually, teachers do it children in order to keep them in place, so they learn more. When it becomes completely unacceptable is when the human race will die.
Okay, it's now apparent you've a lot to learn to, because you're making claims which are just not true.
It's nothing to do with "truth", because the bible has very little "truth" in it.
BS. I've walked the walk you're talking about and understand myself, know my capabilities, learned my limitations(and how to overcome them) and what it takes to live an honest life. No god required.
Wisdom insinuates truth, and as I have already said, there's little truth in the bible. Example: it claims that people must obey a higher authority, which is false. The highest authority for any individual is self. Otherwise, you know not what you do.
More BS. One following the word of another is always in a stasis of following and cannot ever lead oneself. That's true wisdom for you.
Whidbey, Very insightful post! Wisdom comes from God.
Here is a site just chocka full of god's wisdom!
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c … short.html
And I suppose you would not recommend the intelligent reply at the bottom of the page you just linked, would you? I wonder if you would even be interested yourself; but try it ... on my recommendation, or perhaps just to inform yourself from a scholarly source. Check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGXXvAbV … e=youtu.be
I saw nothing but the page itself.
Did you see the reply at the bottom of your link? I'll paste it here for you verbatim.
"Oh of course you silly atheists, god IS cruel sometimes. But it's our fault for not following their guidlines, which are of course written by men."
Pathetic religious excuses for justifying genocide, homophobia and slavery. Sickens me.
"Like other surrounding nations...until they were destroyed they would continue to stand against god and his plan leading to the salvation of humanity."
Complete and utter bullshit!
VincitOmniaVerit 2 years ago
Ancient Israelis=Modern Day Taliban
What are you talking about earnest? The link I posted has nothing like that on it made by its author! I don’t believe that you would intentionally steer people wrong, would you?
What you have printed were made by commenters to the author’s work, not by the guy that’s trying to educate people on the correct context of all that seems to jump out at you and make you blind to the rest. There’s MORE stuff, you know; don’t just let your misunderstanding alarmist reaction prevent you from a more thorough look at it, please.
Yah that was a wowser page. Nothing in context as usual. Visions are meant for humans to perceive a message. Acts.. God sets the standard and annaias and sapphira were being hypocrite christians, yknow those who overspiritualize and put on fronts for their own reputations. The whole page is just brainwashing hogwash.
And this is what you allowed to sink into you? Weak christians fall by the wayside and end up being burned as chaff.
better man up soon.
Christopher Hitchens well thought out essay on the Ten Commandments in Vanity Fair has this nugget "...the Ten Commandments were derived from situational ethics. They show every symptom of having been man-made and improvised under pressure. They are addressed to a nomadic tribe whose main economy is primitive agriculture and whose wealth is sometimes counted in people as well as animals. They are also addressed to a group that has been promised the land and flocks of other people: the Amalekites and Midianites and others whom God orders them to kill, rape, enslave, or exterminate..."
It's not rude at all. You just don't like it when people are smarter than you and inform you of it.
Your book on humilty must have been written on another planet, too funny.
But I tell you this one thing ,if there were a prize on HP for 'line,quote,or word' of the day you would have won it hands down!
You think you are smarter than some one?
Dear me - who is this unfortunate soul?
Not everyone is the same intelligence.
Actions prove level of stupidity, ignorance and intelligence, more often than not.
Dont worry Cags,there is hope for everyone
By the way the most intelligent people seldom have to boast about it.
Your attempt at mocking me is yet another failure.
I wasn't boasting about it and I don't expect YOU to know the difference.
Then we are both right then
Yes you were up there on some high horse ,attempting to explain to the mere humans how much smarter you are. Then proceed to explain how and why I am ignorant.
Oh dear ,you dont even see your arrogance!
Bad ,bad tiger!
I'm sure you see yourself as right. Apparently, you're never wrong. So far, from almost every post you've made. Not once, have I ever seen you apologize or accept being wrong. I have.
Mere humans? Insinuates all humans. However, with regards to those who I was talking to...their actions proves I am. Sorry, if you don't like honesty and confidence.
All humans are ignorant to an extent EK. Why you are? I didn't say you were. So, don't put words into my mouth.
It's not arrogance. That's just your perception, which is obviously skewed. You're mistaking confidence for arrogance. Shame on you. Ego much?
The communication over the last 30 mins began from me responding to a post you made.
I gave my opinion as I saw it. Opinion.
Then you and Mark jump all over me like some Darth Vader with a bunch of rhetoric.
Crazy ,crazy ,crazy behaviour for big people.
Of course I am going to respond.
And you are wrong I have said when Im wrong on occassion. I would not expect you to see every single post I have made though!
You seem to have a problem with my directness.
Don't have a problem with your directness. I do have a problem with you using the wrong words to describe specific things, which comes from the skewed perception you use.
You seem think that your perception is the only correct perception. Sounds a little "off" to me. And it interesting that you speak of putting words in your mouth when you, and Evol never seem to accurately repeat what others have said.... Amazing
No, again you would be wrong. My perception isn't the only correct one. However, I've learned more about perception than you have(obviously) and it's solely based on reality, which you don't do.
I'm sure it is does, but that comes from a lack of knowledge and a lack of wisdom.
Actually, the above statement isn't true. I don't twist words or play word games.
Oh.... thanks Eagle,
I wondered who Evol Guy was,,,, now I know.....
Still full of himself and still wrong.
How does that phrase go?
"Sometimes is better to remain silent and everyone think you're a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right!"
That's not directed at any particular individual, but I must say, this is the first religion forum I haven't regretted participating in!
And for the record, EvoGuy has made some interesting points.
Apparently, you don't see yourself as ever getting humiliated. Because, you've already made the decision that you won't permit it to happen to you. Ego, much?
I know humility, I've felt it. I've learned from it. Maybe you should learn more about being than spending time on the Internet, claiming you have answers.
Interesting statement, especially coming from you.
So does bulldust that takes a position of authority by proxy.
There is a name for it.
megalomania, a common problem for many religionists.
another name might be a p*ss*d off failed religionist who preaches his false doctrine over and over and over again.
That is the whole point.
I don't preach, I hold up your doctrine for the world to see, and like all of the religiously infirm, you hate seeing your own stuff, the stuff you would rather justify with some inane workaround dribble than accept what is written in your "good book" of "god's love." I just see it for the psychotic rubble it is.
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