I was told yesterday that people believe in the unexplained because they just really, really, really want to believe. I know that anyone that has been broadsided by the unexplainable probably considers this type of thinking offensive on some level.
So, I think it would be nice if those who have had experiences that have defied simple explanations post them. In their simplest forms with no embellishment; and allow the ‘experts’ the opportunity to help us understand how it could have happened. Since my belief is simply that people want answers that truly explain the phenomenon. Not foolish remarks that you must have imagined it, or natural reasons that are more of a stretch than the incident itself.
Note to the experts. You can laugh if you want to, or you can attempt to solve a mystery. Your choice.
I’ll go first. Please explain this.
Colorado Springs. Early afternoon. The house sits on the plains in a tiny subdivision well outside of town about 10 miles from Cheyenne mountain and faces South. My husband and I are sitting in the family room which has a north facing window. There are no houses behind ours and we had a privacy fence so there was no chance of anyone being in the back yard when this occurred.
A ball of light the size of a dime appears on the north wall. It flies directly at us and stops to hover within a foot of my face, at eye level, then in front of my husband; then flies back toward the place it had appeared and disappears as soon as it reaches the wall. The whole thing lasted no more than a minute. We both saw the same thing and there were no drugs or alcohol involved.
I would love a reasonable and logical explanation of this incident that would allow me to not use this as reason to give people who claim to have seen UFO’s the benefit of the doubt. I’m not saying I saw a UFO, I’m saying I don’t know what the heck it was.
Tectonic stress causes what is known as ball lightening. It travels much like a UFO. Hovers at times, flies erratically.etc. Doctor Persinger of Laurentian U in Ontario Canada has done research on this all his life.
This does not mean that there would have been an earth quake after this though often they happen with\in a couple weeks of sightings..
This ball lightening is due to high levels of EM. Em can cause hallucinations, feelings that someone is watching you, etc. This is well documented.
I will never say someone did not experience something. I only question their interpretation of the experience. There are so many natural reasons for something to happen that seems odd, that there is no need to look to the supernatural. There is still so much the average person does not know about the natural. Science certainly doesn't know all there is to know and doesn't claim to.
But jumping to conclusions doesn't help anyone's case.
Yes, we do all realize that jumping to conclusions is not good. I'll have to read up on your lightning theory. Everyone I know that has seen ball lightening in their homes are older and I was told it was actually attracted to them. It didn't stop to hover. It would slam right into them, but it is certainly worth following up and reading about what any studies might have found.
But, things were so dry out there touching anything always generated a strong static charge. You could see the lightning as you pulled your hand away if it was dark enough.
Hey Slarty. I appreciate the input, but it looks like the ball lighting solution might have been jumping to conclusions. I'll still read up on it a little more, but from what I can find so far the behavior of the ball of light in our family room does not mimic the usual pattern of ball lightning in any way, shape or form.
It was a guess and may still be the case. If it was atypical of reports of ball lightening I still wouldn't rule out EM due to tectonic stress. But since there is no way to know for sure it is anyone's guess.
I can't explain your phenomenon. Since you both witnessed it, I can't suggest a hallucination. There is evidence that mutual hallucinations occur, but usually there is group self-hypnosis involved first, and you haven't mentioned anything which makes that seem likely here.
How is/was the lighting in this room, either artificial or provided by sunlight? Could you have shared some sort of retinal trauma?
But, you really, really, really want to believe it was a UFO.
Actually, I've never called it that. Although it was flying. And I can't identify it. UFO always sounds like aliens. I was in close proximity to four military installations, so we were more inclined to think whatever it was could have been military in nature.
I saw a UFO too Emile. It was a couple years ago, I was sitting in my dad's station wagon listening to a football game that wasn't airing on TV. We both saw a bright yellow ball of light below the heavy cloud cover (it had been snowing). We watched it for maybe 10-15 seconds before it went behind some power lines and just vanished.
To this day I have no idea what it was however seeing this object didn't cause me to believe in anything out of the ordinary. I mean obviously this was a UFO, in that it was unidentified, but to suggest that it merits believing in ETs or alien spacecraft or anything of the sort is a stretch. There are many more plausible down-to-Earth explanations for what my Father and I saw that night.
I'm still a skeptic of UFO claims, paranormal claims, religious claims, etc. I'm still convinced that there are explanations that make more sense than aliens, ghosts and gods to those questions and experiences.
Yes. UFO isn't a dirty word. It's just something unidentified. I'm skeptical myself, but I don't rule anything out completely. I think some scenarios are much more far fetched than others, but I'm not one to say that would necessarily make them entirely impossible.
Emile, I like the name of your forum. That is so cool. Belief is so overrated.
"Belief" is not always accurate. In fact, belief is frequently inaccurate or downright wrong.
As a Christian, I'm tired of belief. "Faith," on the other hand is quite different.
"Belief" is at effect (perception); "faith" is at cause (creation).
Another possible explanation for your UFO is some kind of poltergeist effect, but perhaps created by you, not a ghost.
One big reason why scientists fail in studying paranormal phenomena is the extra element they add to the experiment. They don't see that they are adding it, but it is there, nonetheless. That added element is their "faith" in doubt. That may sound like an oxymoron; maybe it is. But their own latent paranormal abilities are usually only reinforcing the status quo -- the laws of physical reality. This is their thumb on the scale they are using to "weigh" the phenomenon they are studying.
The doubt inherent in skepticism is the water they use to douse the flame of spiritual effects they are attempting to study. And what a pitiful circumstance. They spend all that effort to study something like the "flame" of creation, and end up pissing on it. Not very bright.
So, how does anyone move from "belief" to "faith?" Well, all I know at this point is that it takes a lot of humility. In other words, it takes a lot of knowing that one does not know it all. And that is a tough position to hold.
If you insist, on a Reasonable understanding, or Logical explanation, of the referred sphere of light phenomenon ... Reckon, Ball Lightning, and Tectonic Stress Generated energy movement explains it ... as logically and as reasonably ... as is presently possible with Science and Myths...
In the Irrational category of explanations, the UFO phenomenon has also been addressed by few "real life encounter" commentators ...
Anyway, I have written a couple of Hubs on the Subject of UFOs, and the Tectonic Plate movement generated Energy's dissipation ... and how these manifest the many experienced "Forms" ... try read and understand these ... if you like.
In answering your present question, I would like you to learn about the Third Factor ... "The Truth of Existential Reality" that has to do with the Human Mind's "Innate Ability" ... to create, what be physically tangible forms !
This creation of Abstract as Real Forms, by the human mind, or what be the more exotic states ... is commonly called Mass Hysteria ... it can be experienced by many simultaneously, in a certain given situation ... where more than one individual "sees" an actual" UFO formation flitting across the sky ... this is, the Mind, creating forms, on a pluralistic basis.
Hysteria, represents the abstract State I am referring to, where the Mind is creating tangible Form/s where none Exist ... doing so by compensating, for all the lacking detail/s ... generally on the basis of a held belief, viz. the reality of UFO promoted by Area 51 myth, etc..
Anyway, its a very complex and "intelligent" question you have asked here ... but as I said somewhere else on these Pages, you have to wait.
Very briefly ... and Contrary to what the Ratio-Materialists believe, that Reality, has to be essentially Physical and Formal ... The Koranic Truth Is ... That Forms ... Physical or Ideal ... Elementally Exists in The Lord's Created Moitial States ... composed of the Physical, and the Ideal Moieties ...
These Moieties Bond, In The Ordination ... Unto The Ordained Forms "within" the Human Mind ... our Awareness of the Existence ... of anything and everything ...
This Awareness leads us being Aware of "existence" ... of an Idea, or Thing, Existent, in Being ... of all that Exists in our ambiance.
The shining spheres were created by the present minds ... simultaneously ... a situation, where you later made necessary "adjustments" to make it into a common Experiential ... and thus, share a belief, that these exist !
Thanks. I'll certainly read your hubs.
As I recall, I think my husband and I were discussing how happy we were with the purchase of the couch we were sitting on. I don't see any reason to believe that we created anything, were suffering from mass hysteria, or that things have been rearranged in my mind to make it a common Experiential.
It was just an oddity, that I haven't come to a final conclusion as to what it really was.
To each their own.Some will believe and some will believe not. We all will not agree with each other in anything.So pick what is good for your spirit,and learn to discard the rest.
Slarty this is meant in the spirit of friendship but how can you serious. Ball lightning that flies up to within of foot two people's faces, hovers, and then flies back on the same trajectory to the place it appeared then blinks out or disappears for which there could be any number of possibilities why.. My interpretation is a probe from some intelligent source.
Right. Your idea is much more rational. lol... what ever we say about it is a guess. But a probe? Could be a secret US military project. lol.. Why not?
I am guessing some kind of EM field. But since no one can verify any of it at this late date who knows?
It was a lightning! It can happen like that. It appears without a sound, reason or whatever and can noiselessly travel any direction, stop, move up and down, suddenly explode like fireworks or just dissappear. I was a witness of a similar to your story many years ago at my old country when I was a kid and it scared me good! No one can explain how and why, but it happens. We have lots of electricity and magnetism around us. Don't forget that we live on a ball of fire with a thin crust on top of that. What do you expect?
Did you witness it on a clear day without a cloud in the sky? I'm not raising an eyebrow. This theory is starting to look interesting.
it was like a big bullet dark violet colour in a slow motion, it was evening,summer, not dark but no sun so obviously some clouds were present. I was school age, so I could understand some possibilities. I saw it through the window,as I was coming into the house, got scared, ran away as I was afraid it was going through the window inside. I told my mom later, she told me her stories, she witnessed in life but I was so scared that I did not remember any of what she told me. She and I decided that it was ball lightning, nothing else. We did not believe into UFO or God's sightings. It is not that unusual though and mostly mistaken for UFO.
And it was not in the sky, it was right near my window that's why it was so scary!
I love your story and I love the way you reacted to it. My sister had a similar incident and when she told me about it she said het first thought was ' this is the end. It's Armageddon.'
I was rolling on the floor laughing. Who would just arbitrarily come up with that? I'd be like you.
This is my last reply on this. Home Girl Hi, this too is meant in a friendly way.. So because you and your mother decided it was only ball lightning that makes it so? Perhaps it was but why don't you do a little research on the phenomena. You will find it very intriguing.
My mom survived II World War, she had 2 University degrees - in mathematics and psychology, I, at that moment, was interested in physics and astronomy. We could trust our judgement, couldn't we? After that episode, I've read lots about ball lightnings and confirmed in my mind that it was what it was. I could not find any other possible explanation.
OK. Home Girl I'm not talking about ball lightning. Google say, UFO-fireballs-phenomena. You may or may not find it interesting. Certainly your mother was a highly educated and intelligent woman in that field, who would of course find the satisfying answer in a context she could understand. She may be correct but slow motion and your description of it's appearance and actions will cause others to compare similar experiences and include other possibilities in the search for an answer.
Like what? What other phenomena is know to science that can creat such effect/illusion/image/object/whatever?
P.S. - I DO NOT BELIEVE into UFOs.
I do not believe in GOD either.
What else is left?
Though I am ready to admit that I do not know everything.
And that I am absolutely profane in contemporary physics.
Persinger proved that a lot of so called UFO fireballs are due to tectonic stress.
It is not that I do not believe in UFOs or life on other planets. I don't know but it seems likely there is life out there. But unless they can travel faster than light it doesn't seem likely they have come to visit yet. Before we say there is such a thing we need to verify that there is such a thing.
It's possible but at this point it is only speculation. If they are that far advanced why would they need ball lightening probes that come from and disappear back in to walls? Wouldn't they go up to meet the space craft they came from? I don't know, the fact that it came from a wall... What material was the wall? What was in the wall?
Could it have been a reflection or projection of light due to events going on at the time? There are so many possibilities.
Sounds like you saw a fairy to me! The wee folk are known to have traveled in orbs of light that sounds just like your explanation here. Just my two-sense, Wiccan-sense chiming in.
Perhaps an obscure point of view, Emile.
There are several species of insects that have metallic properties, which could in fact appear to be small, brilliant objects, flitting about. One such is a species of giant lightning bug, also large beetles, like scarab and Costa Rican Click Beetles. There are even large honey bees or a white butterfly/moth can appear to be glowing orbs -because their hairs are oily, their wings move very fast and reflect the light off themselves, to ward off predators. I have seen dragonflies do this and blind a bird for a few seconds.
Your mention of them hoving seems to fall in line, as all flying insects can hover and retract on the precise path they were on or zig-zag at odd angles faster than we can blink.
Either way, kind of interest.
Emile have you ever looked into this? Your description of your experience reminded me of when I read this article.
http://www.soulconnection.net/glossary_ … /orbs.html
That's pretty wild. I'll be honest, I never considered that. I think I might have been scared if I'd considered that one of the possibilities at the time. But that was a time in my life when a lot of bizarre things were happening.
I've always wondered if there isn't some fluctuation that causes us to move in and out of psychic zones. Which sounds crazy, I know; but it seems as if I'll have times in my life where everything is down to earth and then there's a sudden bevy of wierd activity that defies logic.
That's ok Emile, I became immune to being called crazy a while ago. I just thought you might find the article interesting. But I totally understand the whole defiance of logic thing. An exgf of mine got me interested in researching stuff like that. She calls them light experiences. And there is no arguing with her about religion or the paranormal because she'll just tell you the physical universe is all an illusion. Not because it has no permanence but because it isnt really there at all.
"Isn't really there?" Interesting idea, but stub your bare toe on a rock and it's still gonna hurt like heck. One "isn't there" bumping into another "isn't there" is indeed a curious concept.
The problem with some (many?) fundamentalists and even some "new agers" is that they ignore science (reality) and draw conclusions which contradict with reality. Some people call that "delusion."
In fact, one renowned 12th century Jewish scholar in the rabbinical court of Saragosa, Spain said that bliss not grounded in reality is not really bliss, but delusion. That's the difference between faith and mortal belief.
One can believe something, but that does not make it true. One can have "faith" in something and that does make it true. Belief is a function of "effect;" faith is a function of "cause."
And Jonathan, I don't think you're crazy, but in fact, delightfully interesting. I keep learning from you, and others, too.
Wow, that's an interesting theory of orbs. Beings from another dimension sending out orbs to observe us? Interesting indeed...I still vote FAIRY.
A very interesting experience Emile.
I would tend to thing that we do slip in and out of what I would term ways of being in the world, and yes, even the possibility of real and strange events taking place as a result.
I would like to hear some theories about these changes in ourselves and any connections to synchronicity.
Carl Jung experienced quite a few very strange phenomena during times when patients were very animated, and in his own life as well with what would be termed poltergeists by many.
That would be a fascinating conversation, although it would be a difficult one to have in this format. We're a motley crew.
Very interesting, Emile. And I think Slarty got it right about the ball lightning.
BTW, UFO means "unidentified" flying object, so yes, you saw a UFO, and now we might classify it as IFO.
I used to live in Marfa, Texas. Near there, for the last hundred years or more, people have occasionally seen lights just like yours moving across the valley. And some of those cowboys were sober when they saw it. Even my Dad saw them. And now there is a monument dedicated to the "Marfa lights," erected by the state of Texas.
Okay, now explain this:
I'll try to be as objective as possible.
While driving in rush-hour, bumper-to-bumper traffic in Los Angeles, about 5:45 PM, I'm on my way to pick up my wife, driving from near downtown to Century City, past Beverly Hills. I'm driving along Wilshire Boulevard, heading West in the center lane of three westbound lanes.
Within a span of about two minutes, six different drivers turn suddenly, without warning, into the lane ahead of me. Five of those times, there is not enough room. I throw on my brakes and wait for traffic ahead to open up the space for them to enter. One of those times, traffic had started to move and an intruder was able to squeeze into the space ahead, but suddenly traffic stopped ahead of them and I had to throw on my brakes with all my strength. Brakes squealed, burnt rubber, but no collision. I could no longer see their license plate and their back window looked awfully close.
After the sixth intrusion, I had a thought that I was 100% responsible for their intrusions. My feelings went from frustration and anger to elation. Yes, I got spiritual. There were other thoughts of "cause-and-effect," "spiritual perception," "creation," and "responsibility eliminating the state of victim."
I had another thought, remembering the mechanics of creation I had discovered a few years earlier. This seemed a perfect opportunity to try them out again. I pictured in my mind "wide open spaces and smooth sailing all the way to my destination." Then, I let go of that mental image by placing my awareness on my surroundings.
Within five seconds, all of the cars ahead of me, for as far as I could see, had evacuated the center lane. Then, for the next four minutes, I passed the bumper-to-bumper cars on either side. During that time, not one car turned into the space ahead of me.
Later, I looked at a map of Los Angeles and measured the distance of that stretch of Wilshire Boulevard. During that incident a two-mile stretch had been cleared.
One of our fellow hubbers calls this a "coincidence." Yes, but what kind? Scientists are looking for "cause-and-effect" coincidences all the time. What was the "cause" for this parting of the "sea of cars" on Wilshire Boulevard?
I can see a rational explanation. You said you were in LA. It would be affected by exits. People may have been moving into position to access exit lanes. Sounds like you got lucky.
Very funny, Emile. "Got lucky."
The funny thing about your explanation is that "exits" don't apply. This is a normal, but very broad surface street. Very similar to just about any street you will find in any American city -- just wider and longer than many.
Clearing the center lane within 5 seconds for a distance of 2 miles in bumper-to-bumper traffic? Cars have a hard time turning into an adjacent lane in such traffic. The turn usually takes several seconds and sometimes a minute or more, and that's only one car. Remember, I had just had 6 such intrusions in front of me, 5 of which took 15-60 seconds to complete (each). 700 cars within 5 seconds is a lot of metal to fit between nearby bumpers. Looking back at it now, it seems rather impossible. Kind of like feeding thousands with bread crumbs, or walking on water.
And starting within one or two seconds after my request? That is some luck. And incredibly lucky that everyone (except those directly behind me) must've wanted to turn off of Wilshire at that moment, because in the four minutes it took me to traverse that two miles, no one turned into that large empty space ahead of me.
Have you ever driven in rush-hour, bumper-to-bumper traffic? How long does a thirty foot span of empty space remain empty in such traffic? This was more than 10,000 feet of empty space.
I find your explanation far more incredible than anything that happened on Wilshire that day. The fact that you would even think it. Yes, incredible. Perhaps even irrational? At least I got a good laugh out of it. Wow!
One lesson I took from the experience was that faith can do anything. I see a lot of people don't want to believe that. Some think that my request was a selfish one, and I can only laugh. They don't know the incredible humility I felt and the sense of sharing with all of those drivers in that experience. In fact, the sense of sharing was so intense that it took me 33 years to figure out that I had completely forgiven the 6 drivers who had cut in front of me. I had forgotten their trespass that completely. I was free of that burden of resentment. That made it worthwhile to me -- to taste such perfect forgiveness.
And those who can appreciate the miracle for what it was may benefit from my experience and gain strength from it. And that would be a good thing, I think.
I'm simply saying there appears to be a rational explanation. You might have posted on the wrong thread. The whole point of the exercise was to discuss things we find bizarre and consider simple answers and explanations. I got quite a few ideas about my little orb experience. Some less likely than others, but all helpful.
But, if you want to believe it was a miracle you should believe it. I would certainly think you have that right.
Miracles and unexplained experiences seem to be getting confused here. They are overlapping, but not necessarily the same thing.
I've never seen a miracle, nor read convincing evidence of one, unfortunately. However, I've seen plenty of things that I can't explain.
Oh, also, I just remembered another UFO incident.
While moving from West Texas to D.C., late Spring of 1962, my mother and father spotted a silvery object hovering above the highway about halfway between Odessa and Midland. At first, my father thought it was an airplane headed for the Midland-Odessa airport, but it continued to hover above the highway.
Then, after about a minute, the object tilted, and then sped away, burying itself in the thunderheads above San Angelo, about 90 miles away, all within the count of ten.
Heck, I was twelve at the time. Flying saucer? Could be. But later in life, I learned more science and thought maybe on the hot, West Texas afternoon, what they had seen was an inversion layer or mirage. As they approached it, they were seeing the layer from a different angle and poof -- it disappears, apparently sliding off to the side.
That's speculation. So, it's still a UFO. Possibly only a UO, because mirages don't "fly."
Oh, and what was I doing at the time? I was looking out the back window, past the U-Haul trailer, toward the home we were leaving.
Where there's foo there's fire. Lets go back in history a bit. What Emile describes sounds similar to the foo- fighters- not the rock band but the phenomena experienced by WW2 pilots later in the war. These small fireballs would zoom out of the upper atmosphere and pace American and British bomber fleets as well as fighters. They were also seen by German and Japanese pilots. Each side thought they were possibly inventions of the other. Not only did these phenomena maneuver in an intelligent manner but at times passed through solid material like a planes wing or through the body of the aircraft its self. Ball lightning, electro- magnetic anomalies, hallucinations, etc etc. Not according to the pilots whose lives depended on knowing what was what up in those embattled and lofty heights. The high commands on both sides took these objects very seriously. Interesting subject to study. Another intriguing fireball mystery from history are the green fireballs that appeared to have an interest in the later 40s and 50s in above top secret faculties in the New Mexico desert. These are just two of the better known examples. The list is a lengthy one.
Yes god clears the freeway for you while a billion prayers for enough food till tomorrow go un-answered.
Of course I do realise your miracle is much more important as you are a christian and humble to boot.
It wasn't a freeway, just a large street. Or can't you read? It says "boulevard."
Christianity had nothing to do with the incident; faith and humility did. Yes, humility. It took me thirty years before I felt it was the right time to talk about it. Where there is the possibility of miracles, then more can happen. Some Christians are deluded into thinking that modern miracles don't happen. Well, at least you and some Christians have something in common.
Hindus and Buddhists have also created miracles, because they found a way to suppress ego more completely. Perhaps some day I can learn more about that, but certainly not by talking to you. Oh, well.
I'm not walking on water, yet. I'm not creating miracles every day, yet. But at least I'm trying to learn more about the few I've experienced.
So far, on Hubpages, I've only learned from one Hubber about this subject. And he happened to be a Hindu.
Yes I can read, just not in to looking at your post yet again! That is the 3rd time I've seen it, and I say if you or your god were to be credible, one of you must feed the children of the world.
You're "god's" biggest claim to fame is losing it's temper like a 2 year old then killing off all of mankind bar 8.
If you're in touch with a god and offer prayers, be humble enough to show your genius and help repair the crud made by your god.Let it know it made a mess and should clean it up.
Any god who can feed the starving and heal the sick would be worthwhile!
OK Emile R.
Try this on for size. My experience as to with when I was a teenager living in the inner city. There was this area around my neighborhood that had a sloping terrain. There was a winding path down this terrain but the most frightening aspect of this terrain was the fact that the incline was so steep. If one were to head down the path on their bicycles they had to keep their hands on the break or one would build up speed faster than they can adjust to slowing down. One day I was at the edge of Snake Hill-(did I mention that's what we call it?) Without realizing it I slipped off my bike and began sliding down the terrain, nothing I could do to stop me or slow me down as I was heading for a maybe a 6 foot jumping off point which could possibly take me into the street. In an attempt to stop myself I slam my feet into the ground hoping this would act like a break-wrong move-that action propelled me into the air and now my elevation is about 14 to 18 feet in the air as I was reaching the jump off point I could see the sidewalk underneath me with nothing but my thin jacket and twist in my body so that the impact would be towards my back rather than my front I hit the sidewalk solid. With the speed and the impact in landing directly on concrete I was certain I had broken several bones in my body-absolutely certain. I thusly began moving my body members one at a time. After I had finished I had absolutely no injuries, not even the pain of the impact was present. I got to my feet and walked away. I realize I'm not the only one that has had similar experiences but the fact of matter is these kind of events have defied science.
I don't see that at all, how exactly does that defy science?
My husband has had a few similar experiences since we got married. We refer to him as unbreakable. He was thrown from a vehicle several years ago during an accident and bounced/slid/flew 50 yards down the road from the vehicle. Not a bone was broken. It would have killed the average person. The ambulance tried to call off the medivac flight when they got there and they said a tiny voice called out from the pavement 'don't give up on me. i'm not dead yet'.
I certainly couldn't explain how you survived. Incredibly lucky, I guess?
Ohhh how very true. For a start I am pleased we do not all agree, that would be a boring world. It tool me about 40 years to really discover who I am and not just be a follower, since then, i have been much happier and actually reaching my goals.
Technically it is a UFO if you couldn't identify it. I see orbs and know for a fact it isn't just me seeing things. Two of my dogs were following it as it moved around the room. I followed it with my eyes only, they followed it by moving their heads. Every now and then it would come in and out of view,but even when it wasn't visible to me, the dogs could see it.There is no way it could have been a reflection because the way it moved was far too random. I have nothing against science.But nothing annoys me more than when people fail to understand what the word paranormal means.Then has the nerve to use science as a reason why it isn't possible.So with all that said , here's the big question.How can 3 different minds have the same 'hallucination' on different days at the same time?
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