Whenever I browse forums that talk about religion, there's at least one person who makes a comment similar to these -
"Since God doesn't exist, this is all irrelevant, so sorry to burst your bubble."
"First of all, he doesn't exist anyway, which means this whole thing is irrational.""
What I mean is that common sense tells them that their comments aren't really called for, but they do it anyway. I've even seen this in hypothetical questions.
By the way, I'm not saying ALL atheists do this, I'm saying that some do. Why do you think those people choose to do this?
Common sense and logic calls for all ridiculous religionist claims to be pointed out as ridiculous.
This is an example of what I'm talking about. Common sense doesn't call for this. I won't continue this further because that's not the point of this particular topic.
It is exactly the point actually. The question is why some atheists get touchy with religion. We get touchy because we don't like being told nonsense.
Common sense dictates that when some one tells me there is an Invisible Super Being in the Sky that I am Too Foolish to be able To See - I tell them they are speaking nonsense.
If some one told you that your religion was Nonsense because The Invisible Pink Unicorn will make them sit in a pile of poo for all eternity with no dinner - what would you say to them?
You're being arrogant and self righteous. All you have to say is "because we share different beliefs and feel compelled to speak our beliefs." Your response to mine is uncalled for. I don't know why you think you're better than people, but you aren't.
If I told you that evolution was ridiculous because that would mean we're a bunch of monkeys, what would you say?
That would mean you don't understand evolution...
If I can interject here:
Were you to make that statement I would assume either that you are nearly totally ignorant of the basics of both biology and evolution OR that you are intentionally lying in an effort to ridicule and discredit evolution with an emotional argument instead of a factual one.
If the first, I might try to educate you to a small degree.
If the second I would find it in the same category as EG's proposed statement about pink unicorns and call you on it. Just as you did although I might not be so polite. I might also comment that this second type of response is all to frequent on these forums and comes from both sides of nearly every argument.
That you do not understand science or facts. Oh well - that is because you believe garbage instead. LOL
You are the one with the lack of understanding. I can tell by what you're saying and by what I can see is your maturity level.
Yeah sure. You understand something I cannot iunderstand huh?
LOLOL This is why your religion causes so many wars.
Really, really mature . Did god sez this in2 u r hed? LOLOLOLO
How brave u r . So very brave.
As I've already stated, religion does not cause wars, people cause wars.
I can see that my analysis of your maturity level is correct by the way you responded to my comment.
Yes - you stated it - but - you are wrong. Religion DOES cause wars. LOL
No, people cause wars. Nothing is inherently good or bad, it's what people do with it that makes it good or bad. Since you like to comment on discussions, I suggest you write an article about what your beliefs on the subject are.
Really? Interesting. Good to hear there are no absolutes and no inherently good or bad. This is what I think also. Odd you go on to contradict yourself. LOL
But - you are right. Beleebers cause wars.
I don't know why either... but you really get some angry posts from our atheist and agnostic friends. It seems to be very, very personal to them...
I suggest that religionists feel insulted when non-believers challenge the existence of god with the same fervour as as their belief in this invisible entity.
I am touchy about any unfounded belief that insists on forcing itself on others. I dont want to walk down the street and hear some preacher shouting about how I'm going to hell. I dont want to answer the door to a bunch of people who want me to believe what they say without actually giving me any evidence for their claims.
I dont mind people believing whatever they want. Kids can believe in santa claus (lots of theists get offended by me likening their belief to santa but whats the difference? You get rewarded for being good and punished for being bad and there is no evidence or proof, right?) and british can believe that french are rude. I dont really care AS LONG AS they do not encroach on anyone elses life.
Trying to force creationism being taught in schools with no evidence is not right. I personlly think that children should not be taught anything as fact. They should be shown evidence and left to their own decisions.
Telling children that god IS real and heaven and hell and whatnot, is akin to child abuse. We know kids will believe anything. They believe in santa right? They should be left alone until they are old enough to make up their own mind.
Also, (since most theists I converse with in the western world are christian) I get angry that people can call a god, who floods the entire planet to kill everyone, and then sends countless millions of people to hell evrey year, a LOVING god.
It really gets my goat. I dont know why. If anyone can actually demonstrate it to be true I would have no problem at all. I just dont like people claiming facts without evidenced because I feel that they are preying on people are looking to be led or a place to belong.
It's kind of the same thing that happens when you get an obnoxious Christian who thinks everything he thinks is right, to the exclusion of all other sects and denominations. It's annoying as hell, and extremely narrow-minded, even to other Christians. But that's religion when people get their hands on it for you: it's just another battlefield to let one person prove he's right while everyone else is wrong.
Bottom line, it's not about belief versus unbelief. It's about good people using either belief or athiesm to attempt good works and make the world a better place. Dicks, on the other hand, will use religion or athiesm to gain a morally superior stance and denounce others. The problem is we seem to have a plethora of dicks that have begun to antagonize one another because of their different methodology in being dickish. And it's oh-so-prevalent thanks to the anonymity and safety of the internet.
Yup. Belief or lack of it is immaterial; the only thing that really matters is what you do.
What disrespectful reference to Christians are you talking about? I read the post, and he didn't call Christians any names.
He used a vulgar expletive, true, and that was pretty crass, but he didn't say "Christians are (expletive)" s you're framing it.
He said, more or less, "(expletives) use religion or non-religion as an excuse to be (expletives)"
I agree that he ought to have used a word like "jerks" instead, but he wasn't attacking Christians. He was attacking jerks.
What disrespectful reference to Christians are you talking about? I read the post, and he didn't call Christians any names.
He used a vulgar expletive, true, and that was pretty crass, but he didn't say "Christians are (expletive)" s you're framing it.
He said, more or less, "(expletives) use religion or non-religion as an excuse to be (expletives)"
I agree that he ought to have used a word like "jerks" instead, but he wasn't attacking Christians. He was attacking jerks.
I agree with Jeff. There was no disrespect to Christians. It appeared to be a complaint against people who use religion to push personal agendas. I would certainly have used a different word; but there was no attack, that I could see. I'm surprised you see it as an attack on Christians.
Emile you are right... and I have never agreed with you
I think it is important that we hear one another and help one another ... Thanks for that
Leslie, I have a great deal of respect for people who will openly admit when they are wrong. It is something that you can't get from the far ends of the religious spectrum. It shows a desire for honesty in the dialogue that I appreciate.
But - you are obnoxious. You might be surprised to discover that going around threatening eternal damnation and pain for not believing the nonsense you believe is obnoxious behavior to many people.
Demanding respect? I have no respect for your beliefs whatsoever. None. In fact - I find them offensive as well as obnoxious.
Still - you are saved and I am damned.
Perhaps if you learned to grow up and keep your obnoxious and irrational beliefs in your head - where they belong - you would cause less offense?
One last time - stop threatening eternal damnation for not believing nonsense or I report you.
Everyone knows where you stand... do what you feel you must do..
my response to Jarn was "incorrect". I eat humble pie...and I apologize to him.
What can I say..
I apologize for misinterpreting your statements as a personal attack.. Please forgive me...
to me it's because religion is thrown in our faces since birth and when we become adults we realise how foolish these beliefs are. i'm sick of hearing about the glory of god, how jesus died for our sins, etc, etc.
the reason for the comments is some atheists do the believers what so believers do to atheists view the world through one set of eyes fact vs fiction real vs surreal believe in your god if it gives you comfort and if your faith is strong enough none of this will matter but my message is for both believers and nonbelievers dont judge each other because what happens if ye are both wrong?????????????
The hypocrite speaks. You agree with calling atheists "Looney Tunes" which is a clear ad hominem attack but you believe other responses in kind are uncalled for.
"I put on an act sometimes, and people think I`m insensitive. Really, it`s like a kind of armour because I`m too sensitive. If there are two hundred people in a room and one of them doesn`t like me, I`ve got to get out."
- Marlon Brando Quote
It's OK to be sensitive...! I personally don't feel like you were that upset by a clear ad hominem attack...but I'm sure you'll get over the major infraction of humor made against you after years of counseling and therapy.
How can anyone be sensitive or upset with someone's ad hominem attacks disguised as childish humor?
Could years of counseling and therapy help that?
It is not that deep... it was funny.
It never ceases to amaze me that you and others can become so easily offended. Now, Trouble, you know you are my friend,so don't take this personally, but... is it a case of "we can dish it out but cannot take it".
You guys attack God and Christian beliefs with a vengeance. You mock everything about Christianity... you suggest that Christians are mentally unstable and foolish.... and you guys expect us to take it.... why is that?
Do you think that Christians are supposed to take abuse and like it? You don't have to answer, I am venting....
I recall a movie made just after the Soviet Union collapsed called "Come and See" in which the Nazis were invading Belarus, in particular a small village where a small boy and girl were playing together on the outskirts. When they arrived back at the village, they noticed the bodies of everyone there piled up naked behind a barn, the Nazis were drinking and taking pictures of themselves in front of the pile having a grand ole time.
I see this scenario similar in which Christians are spreading the Word of God, demanding others accept or deny the Gospel, threatening them with hellfire and brimstone if they don't, and go on to say atheists are "Looney Tunes."
Later, they say it's not that deep... it was funny.
Almost exactly what the Nazis said, too.
I should be more careful...
But, this is what I mean... you require that Christians remain stoic, and nonhuman. When we do, you call us self-righteous. If we show some humanness we are monsters... I just don't get it
and, no-one is demanding that you accept the Gospel, no one is threatening anyone with Hell-fire and brimstone. The most we are doing is telling you how much Jesus loves you!
You can do what you want to do, choose or not choose - that is you choice (that was a little pun - get it choose or not choose,that's your choice)
God really love all of mankind.... He can't help it, because He is love....
Please stop putting words in my mouth and making claims that I said something that I never said.
If you really don't get it, let me take a stab at trying to explain it to you using your post above.
Notice how first you say that "no-one is demanding... no one is threatening..." and then go on to say "choose or not choose". If there are no demands or threats, there is no choice to make. Is there an ask somewhere, perhaps?
Telling me that Jesus loves me is also not a choice for me to make, it is just a statement. Or, is there an ask there, perhaps? Is the ask to accept or reject his love, to choose or not choose Jesus?
Here's what we find; post after post after post of believers telling us to accept Jesus or it's off to hell we go, a whole lot more than just telling us how much He loves us.
Who is actually going to care if you tell us Jesus loves us? You might get some Amens and positive affirmations from fellow Christians, although I've seen many of them come back swinging fists, too. Believers of other religions don't care because they have their own gods who love them.
Other than yourself, who else do you see benefiting from telling us those things?
Semantics are a mess,don't you think
I reiterate, "no-one is demanding that you accept the Gospel, no one is threatening anyone with Hell-fire and brimstone. The most we are doing is telling you how much Jesus loves you!"
Choose to believe His love for you, choose not to believe His love for you, choose to believe you are being threatened, choose not to believe you are being threatened. Choose to not choose... whatever you do or don't do is really not my business.
I will continue to tell you and others that Jesus loves you, that He died for you and that He rose from the dead. I will continue to say that if you receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you will be saved and when you die, you will go to heaven for eternity.
Salvation is free and all you have to do to attain it is to recognize that you are a sinner and to tell God that you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for you and that He rose from the dead. Jesus come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior. I receive you now in Jesus' Name.
God forgives all and God loves all....take it, leave it, like it or lump it... it an eternal foundational truth
And, I couldn't tell you who, other than myself benefits from me telling you those things. I plan to continue telling you as stated above because I do get great emotional benefit from telling you that Jesus loves you, it feels real good saying it over and over and over.
I am certain that I am hopelessly obsessed....because, I love you too!
Well, didn't Jesus say that we are to "turn the other cheek :p LOL!
No. That just seemed like a good joke. I don't mind joking around. In this topic, I'm addressing those who make rude comments and are serious.
I was juts joking. LOL
Liars for Jesus (TM) LOLO
This is why your religion disgusts so many.
So - going back to the OP - people like you lying is why so many get touchy. People like you. You.
I do not get touchy. You, by the way, are the one who is contradicting himself. You say religion kills people, then agree with me when I say that nothing is inherently good or evil. When I asked you how I contradict myself, you did not answer. What is your answer?
It appears...all is silent on the Evolution Guy's answer to a basic question. Face it, jtyler...when the discussion goes against the ones that really do get "touchy with religion"...they run and hide. Only when everyone is laughing at their jokes...and patting them on the back for what they say...will they stick around and discuss their pointless points...with anyone. Plus, they might have used up their bag of tricks on how to twist sentences around....after a long thread. That can also send them into hiding. They'll be back...with a new thread to counter this...or they will wait till late at night to give you a reply abck...so they can get the last word in with a reply. This is textbook procedures on the internet for how to portay your pointless thinking on to a topic...and then leave still "saving face".
All is not silent. What are you referring to? In fact, the silence came after my answer to his question. Who is hiding?
Or - maybe they are sick of your BS and hate mongering?
Oh...it is just BS and Hate mongering if it comes from the opposite side of how you think. The other side is not allowed to feel anything other then what you tell them they must think...or they are "haters". Geez...isn't that tactic getting a little old yet?
Well - Show me it is not BS and hate mongering instead of defending garbage. 2,000 years of war is not enough for you?
Hey...it is not hate mongering...any more then jumping on a post and telling all your views...as having to be the correct ones...because you say so. Can't you see that?
2000 years of War...now you make me laugh. There has been War since man was able to make a pointy edge on stone. Save all your doctoral debates for someone who gives a darn...!
No wars fer Jeebus.
Little wonder your religion has caused so many wars.
Great rationalizing...Oh wisest of the internet ones. I'm taking vast notes at how well you deliberate...
AWWWWW - Tell me wot god sed innit.
Now - maybe you understand what the garbage you say sounds like to rational people.
Or not. You can sez wot god sed innit and it is reasonable ter yer innit.
Please show me the rational people...you have already demonstrated...It juz' aint'a gon'na be you!
Go ahead keep getting the last word in...that is how you win your theoretical debates isn't it? Right or Wrong?
AWWWW - lying fer Jeebus agin? LOL
Rational? Sure LOLOLOL Believing garbage is rational?
Its obvious there is no argument, just a lot of words with a laughing face and he has made his point. He really has made his point, it just isn't the point he wanted to make...innit?.!
How many wars started for anything other than religion? Do you even bother to keep count?
Well, also for wealth, territory, and a good-looking woman named Helen.
Religion does not cause wars, people cause wars.
True, we can't blame all wars on religion, but many atrocities have been committed in the name of organized religion, and that includes my religion - Christianity. That makes me sad. Wonder what Jesus thought of the Inquisition?
This is an example of what I was talking about. That comment was not warranted. How do you know I even participated in any of the discussions I talked about?
Aww- Liars for Jesus. (TM) LOLOLOLO
Of course it was warranted. LOLOLOL
I was thinking u wanted 2 no why peeps is touchy with your BS religion? Turns out - u just wanted a fight. LOLOLOL
It's interesting that believers feel they are free to call atheists 'Looney Tunes' but are fiercely aggressive and personally insulted when they are told their religion is insane.
In other words, atheists will ridicule the beliefs while believers will ridicule the person.
It's called humor...troubled man...why you so sensitive? (Now...whether it was funny or not is a whole nother question) Humor is something I have seen those who fiercely, aggressively, and are personally insulted when they are told about others beliefs about religion.
See how that works...There are two sides to every opinion...and just 'cause all your internet buddies laugh with you at all your postings...doesn't make them the correct ones...or the ones that you feel everyone should follow. That is called: "Life"...and believers all believe that men are made of all kinds and different views. That is called: "Believe". Can you say: "Believe"?
Humor is something everyone tries to bring to their side. To prove my point....just look at Evolution Guy's attempt at Humor on here for an example.
Awww - Yes your beliefs are a joke. I agree Innit. Attack and Fight 4 Jeebus like wot god sed. LOLOL
Little wonder You believers cause so much Konflikt.
Liars For Jesus (TM).
That would be childish humor, then.
You sure have quite the vivid imagination, always fantasizing about how other people are feeling. Is that some sort of defense mechanism?
It was somewhat childishly funny.
Yes, can you say: "Condescending and Patronizing"?
Really? Then why all the "innits", "Jeebus," etc.?
It's all a form of catharsis for the crusading atheist.
Clearly, people from all walks of life have knee-jerk reactions to those who don't share their beliefs (especially when it comes to religion and politics). In fact, your thread is kind of an example of it, I'm afraid. The shame is that it's not hard to stop generalizing and stereotyping. I've seen a handful of posters here at HP who avoid it, but not many.
The thread title points out one side of the situation and magnifies it to seem bigger than it is (I know you say "some"), which makes it a generalization. I've been here long enough to see that what you describe is often done by both religious and non-religious people.
It's true that it's done by some religious people as well, but it kind of strikes me as odd that atheists would be offended because they don't have a religion at all.
Just sick and tired of listening to garbage from you really. Innit!!!!
People hold their values close, no matter what those values are, jtyler. Non-religious people have a belief system that dictates that those who are religious are wrong, same as vice-versa. It's hard for some people to believe something and still have an open mind to other ideas, which is too bad, I think.
I don't tell people their beliefs or their non-beliefs are wrong. I think it's a very personal decision that everyone must make for himself. Christianity works for me, but Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, or atheism might work best for someone else.
I've actually noticed that about you, habee. There are some people, here and in out in the "real" world, who are able to listen and learn from others, despite their own beliefs.
That is an admirable quality to have. Unfortunately, many of us are know it alls.
EXCUSE ME WAS YOU SAYING SOMETHING, UH UH! YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOTHING!!!
I'm right, no matter what I say, you are wrong no matter what you say. If you don't agree, then you are closed minded.
Some atheists get touchy about religion for the same reasons some people who subscribe to a certain religion get touchy about any challenges made to that religion, inadvertant or otherwise. I dont think attributing touchiness exclusively to atheists is at all valid.
Or productive, agreed. There are times I'd genuinely like to discuss religion or politics, but there's little room here to do that without running into zealots of whatever belief.
OK - discuss your irrational beliefs.
Ever seen a professional heckler at work during say political campaigns?
That is exactly the agenda of extreme fundies and extreme atheists-to shut down the conversation which they achieve through childish babble!
Chidish babble? Does that mean we're on the path to Babble-On?!
What in the world is "Innit"...other then annoying. Try some country twang...or Australian lingo or NY'er. Anything or phrase that does not have the word "Innit" in it!
Still - keep fighting fer Jeebus innit,.
Mark is British. "Innit" is what British rednecks/chavs use for "isn't it?". "Wot" is British redneck/chav for "what."
Apparently there are tons of Bible thumpers in Britain, too (which is unsurprising, considering that the Bible thumpers in the US tend to dominate in Anglo parts of the country).
If you are looking for bible bashers in the uk then you should try the wee free church of scotland they are very strict. if ye ken wit a mean, och aye the noo.....jimmy
Scotland, too?! I've noticed that, at least in North America, Canada has relatively few Bible thumpers, and Canada has a much more pronounced Scottish influence than the US does.
But a lot of Scottish immigrants settled in the Southeast, including my Scottish Presbyterian ancestors. There were several Scottish settlements in GA, and the Appalachians are full of Scot-Irish.
I suppose Presbyterian is almost synonymous with Scottish ancestry. And you're right about the Scots-Irish element, although I never really understood that term (are they from Scotland or Ireland, or a mix of both?).
I think the Scots-Irish group actually came from Ulster, by way of Scotland, England, Wales, and other places. Most were Presbyterian, but some were of other protestant denominations. Either way, they were all Calvinists. Many immigrated to Pennsylvania, and from there they spread. They seemed to have a special affinity for the Appalachians. Have you ever noticed how much Bluegrass music sounds like Irish and Scottish music? My first Scottish ancestor to come to America, James Kilpatrick, started out in Virginia in the 1660s, but the family soon moved to NC, then to SC, then to GA. Can you tell I recently traced by family history? lol. I've traced the Kilpatrick side back to around 1060.
Hm, interesting question.
As others have said, the crankiness isn't exclusive to atheists. There are plenty of cranky Christians, too.
But I imagine that the crankiness of the cranky atheists can be traced to a combination of two things.
First, there's the pervasive idea throughout our predominantly theist (that's theists-or, god-believing-in) society that we're meant to respect people's religion, and that religious people get a pass when they do something that people who aren't part of their religion might consider strange (like refusing to work on Saturday, or insisting on wearing a scarf at all times, or mumbling at the table before eating, or whatever). If you say you worship a different God, then you get a pass. But if you say you don't believe in God, then it's okay for everyone to be rude to you, insult you, talk down to you, you name it. The atheists have to respect people who believe in God (or a god), but the theists don't generally feel the same need to respect atheists.
Second, there's the assumption that everyone in the world is some kind of theist, and the default in the US is Christian. Therefore, lots of people assume that it's okay to open government functions with a prayer, and that nobody will have a problem with it because hey, everyone's Christian, and even if you're Jewish, it's the same God, right, so no biggie. But perhaps an atheist doesn't think that we should be using government functions as an opportunity to proselytize, or to reinforce the privileged status that Christianity (and to a lesser extent other theist faiths) has assumed in our society.
I can understand the frustration.
And then we get the ludicrous claims from certain conservative Christians that Christians are being persecuted because the fundamentalists can't make other people's kids pray to their God in public (state-funded) schools or make public school teachers pretend that the Book of Genesis is a scientific text.
Yeah, no reason to be frustrated about that.
There's no reason to be snarky all the time, but it's easy to understand where the anger comes from, innit?
I know several atheists who always do this on my Facebook wall. They will argue and do all they can to debunk anything spiritual/mystical/paranormal that gets posted. I get fed up with it. It appears to me that many atheists think they have some mission to make believers in God, religions, ghosts, spirits, afterlife and aliens, all into non-believers because there is no peer-reviewed scientific evidence for any of these things and so it is all delusion or irrational thinking! In my experience these atheists cause heated arguments with others who believe in any of the above subjects. The atheists are no better than people of religions who attempt to convert others to their belief system!
Notice how that makes utterly no sense at all? Religious people post religious nonsense and it is the atheists fault for starting a fight? LOL
Thank goodness for the early atheists - or we would still be burning witches.
Sorry you do not like reasonable, rational peopel trying to prevent the spread of hatred and nonsense that religion promotes. Must be really really annoying for ya.
What I object to is the intolerance that atheists show for other people's belief systems. I also object to having people mail me privately to complain about what some atheist has said. I have had that happen several times, most recently by a Muslim friend. I find all of it very childish but I note that both sides the believers and atheists both feel a need to convert others to their way of thinking! OK religious people do so because they are told to but why do atheists do this?
It makes it hard to have friends from different belief systems!
But you are fine with the Islamic book that instructs believers to kill infidels.
Nice. How very tolerant you are. LOL - All religions are supposed to convert non believers. That is OK - right? But anyone who speaks out and says this is hate mongering nonsense should STFU?
Atheists do it because we are sick of religious peopel preaching and trying to force their nonsensical beliefs on us.
I am sick of both sides telling others what to do and getting caught in the middle or having my site turned into a verbal battleground! I am tolerant because I usually leave this crap up and let these people fight it out amongst themselves. I refuse to take sides in this idiocy! I am also sick of hearing people complain about other people they find so offensive they have to block them!
On the subject of Muslims that try to convert others, I stopped going to a takeaway where I used to live in Cardiff because one of the guys in there kept trying to convert me to Islam. He admitted this. It was all fine when we were talking about poetry which we both write but then he brought religion in to the conversations and started telling me what to do eg to read the Koran because every word is the truth (he told me that). He lost the shop a customer.
Aww - poor you. So - now you want the religious people to shut up as well? When you read the Quran - were you not disgusted by it?
Not standing up against this idiocy is how you get women being stoned to death for being in a room with a man that is not their husband and 1,000 years of witch burnings.
Sad - you would be happy to return to those days it seems. The only reason we are not is because people have stood up against it.
It is no different to the Bible where the Lord God hands out stonings and death for all manner of stuff. It's the same god! Billions and billions of people in this world believe in this god variously known as The Lord God, The Lord, Jehovah, YHVH, Yaweh, Jah and Allah, and a comparatively small number of atheists with attitude and a desire to debunk belief systems is hardly going to stop all these billions believing in this rubbish by posting on social networking sites and message boards! In my opinion there is something very wrong with a large number of humans but what the answer is I don't know and neither does anyone else which is part of how these religions form by giving the masses a load of stuff to believe and coupled with rewards for following the instructions and terrible penalties for not doing so. A majority of humans will follow this stuff if you throw in some common sense for good measure. It is the basis of all cults and new religions. Sadly it is the 'human condition' and it has clearly been like this for all recorded history.
So - we should just let it slide and go back to burning witches and stoning people?
You do understand - the only reason we are not doing this is because people have stood up against it?
See how you are making no sense at all here? No religious nonsense - no atheists saying it is nonsense.
You have not read the books then? Too lazy to educate yourself as to what they say? Just wish them pesky atheists would shut up asking the religious crap to stop? Oh well.
I have a very detailed knowledge of the Bible and have read it right through and the book of Mormon. I have read a lot of the Koran but not all of it.
And the fact that the bible teaches religious people to shun those who do not believe, and the Koran teaches that unbelievers should be killed for offending Allah does not fill you with fear?
How strange that you tolerate such things without saying anything. Would you prefer it the way things used to be when Christians could kill anyone they liked for not believing and homosexuality was illegal in the UK because god sed so?
It is not strange at all! There are millions of things I disagree with in this world and accept that I can only do so much. I make my view known but I don't push my beliefs or lack of beliefs on others. If I did do I certainly would have a very lonely and miserable life and I find it a hard enough struggle as it is. If I went round telling all the religious people I know and indeed live amongst that I think what they believe is rubbish how many would want to hear that? If I went further and criticised people where I live for not being responsible with their rubbish and failing to use the recycling facilities I could probably become the most unpopular person here! Do you do this? Do you make a point of verbally finding fault with all those you know who you disagree with? Do you condemn your neighbours for their religious beliefs?
Yes - I do. I don't want to be killed for not being a Muslim. I don't want homosexuality to be illegal again because some Christian group forces a law into being. Sorry you are so apathetic. Odd you are also lying at me because all you have done on this thread is push your belief that atheists should do what you want on me.
This is yet another meaningless argument and I am done with it!
I don't know why 'some' get touchy about religion, But, I would think it has a great deal to do with what the religious are willing to post on these forums. You can't attempt to spread hatred without eliciting some type of a negative reaction. I think it was Martin Luther King that said All that is required for evil to happen is for good men to remain silent
You can't attempt to spread prejudice and intolerance without any of us remembering what history has shown happens when those voices are allowed to speak out and go unchallenged..
"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Matthew 5:38-42
I don't get too offended with athiests since they are blind spiritually. The thing is, God exists whether you believe it or not, Heaven and Hell exists whether you believe it or not. Can you imagine God saying, "Well since many people don't believe in Me, I'll just go away." ? I pray some of the non-believers will realize that what is happening in the world is all been prophesied and we are in the eleventh hour.
I think atheists get offended and touchy because they have never been touched by god and received his blessings. Just because he doesn't include everyone doesn't mean atheists should try to sway my beliefs. I don't always agree with god and his decisions but how can that make me believe less? God makes no mistakes and his plan is just. If you don't get blessed and don't have a perfect life, god planned a bad life for you. Accept it and get over it! God didn't want children to eat and flourish in Africa. He wants them hungry and eaten up with AIDS. It is his plan so he can do as he wishes. He also made atheists so he likes them too. They are part of the divine plan.
"If you don't get blessed and don't have a perfect life, god planned a bad life for you. Accept it and get over it! God didn't want children to eat and flourish in Africa. He wants them hungry and eaten up with AIDS."
Please tell me you're joking.
I am not making that up or joking. You have seen the commercials with flies swarming the hungry children. That's no joke. It is all part of a divine plan. We have to accept the plan designed for those children. He planned my life out better. That is the way it works. Trust god and you will be fine.
You think that God wants children to be hungry and eaten up with AIDS? Really? I can say that you've gone a long way towards discouraging me from pursuing further discussion on this subject.
Then you obviously don't want to discuss biblical teachings. It says god knows the number of hairs on your head, he knew you before you were born, and he has a plan for you. So how are kids in Africa not a part of the plan? Molested children? Part of the plan.
This post should tell that what you've learned about the supposed "god" is all BS.
I don't think any of it is BS. It is the word of god. I am very thankful he sent jesus to save us though. We are all imperfect because he made us that way. We have to depend on him and jesus so that we are worthy. All part of his divine plan. My parents were killed in a car accident when i was 4. God had a plan for me to jump from foster home to foster home and never feel accepted. But it shaped me into the man i am today. I am thankful for that.
Did you think that statement through before you hit submit? Please tell me you aren't implying that you worship a god that you think feels perfectly fine about starving and molested children. Does that resemble a divine plan to you? I would assume with an attitude such as that, child molestation by the clergy is perfectly fine. I mean really, they are men of God so it must be part of the plan.
If god's plan is divine and he made it, then yes, all things are from him. I hit submit because i know what i say is true. The bible speaks of a divine plan so everything that happens is for a reason. Those starving kids may make you give more money at church. If god makes no mistakes then all things were made in his plan. Even muslims.
I don't know if I honestly believe that God has control over certain things that make us human. And I don't if I am even making any sense when I say that. But for me God is not so much of a direct participant in life like you might be suggesting. But I know the point you are trying to make. I even feel the share the same concern as your words suggest. But maybe the real power of healing is within ourselves. I don't know. I just writing out loud.
Why do some atheists get so touchy with religion? Because, religion is a hoax. Fairly simple really. It's only the gullible that buy into it.
In what way is it a hoax? There are many scientists that are religious. Einstein himself said that the more he learns, the closer he gets to God.
Religion is a hoax because those who control religion refuse to make available the metaphors of Jesus' teachings. Thus, giving the readers wrong context. Not to mention, the first 5 books are from another religion, which is a proven fact. And, the NT written by S/Paul is a wrongful interpretation of Jesus' teachings, because HE was working with the same literature readers today read.
Why wouldn't the first five books be the same as other books. He is the same god. Period. You are entitled to your opinion even though it is incorrect.
Hey Robert, you're entitled to your opinion to, but you know what they say about opinions, right?
The first 5 books are from the Hebrew religion. The Quran doesn't start out the same way, so YOUR statement is incorrect.
Christianity is nothing but a hoax and all you're doing is defending your religious indoctrinated belief.
I hold no belief whatsoever with regards to whether or not a god actually exists. I know it doesn't because it's plain as day to understand, there's NO higher authority required for living life or understanding life.
There may be a higher power, like Einstein seemed to think. But, just because there might be a higher power, doesn't make that higher power, an actually higher authority.
I'm sorry god's plan for you is to be a turd. Maybe your lack of faith is the reason for your bad attitude???
You know, someone could report you(I'm not saying that I am offended by your statement, but it possible that someone else might consider your statement to be disrespectful and against the rules of the forums. )
My only response is- What god?
I don't lack faith. I have faith in myself and I have faith in my fellow humans. No other faith required.
Which rule(s) did i break? All you do is argue with everyone and you want to report me?
I didn't say I was going to report you. Do try using some sort of reading comprehension.
As for all that I want to do is argue? You couldn't be further from the truth, if you tried. How about trying to be honest with yourself? It's at least a start.
I'll give the reading comprehension a try. I was saying that my comment was no worse than all the attacks you post. As for being honest with myself, you're a bigger turd than I thought you were. That is the truth!
Pick out an attack? I just recently received a 4 week ban for telling someone to "get a life". But, if you think you can find an attack, then point it out.
Otherwise, I suggest you quit lying about me. Anything I've done before my most recent ban, I have served my time for. If you think I've managed to "attack" someone, then point it out to me.
Truth? Oh, is that what you think you're selling on the forums? Good to know.
I think Atheists get tired of Christians telling them they're damned.
I suppose that does happen every once-in-a-while. I've never done that, and I've never seen that, though I'm not denying that happens. I don't believe that non-christians are damned, myself.
Me either. I don't believe in the Pauline doctrine that you must believe in Christ to get to heaven.
Just who is going to be going to heaven?
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Nasty psychotic little god!
I haven't read the whole bible yet, so I'll have to take your word for these, but I don't believe these myself (whether they're actually written or not). The bible was written by people, so the writers can greatly influence what goes in the book. A commandment says not to kill, so these two are contradictory. Was this from the Bible or was it from some other book? What version?
All from the NAB and NLT as stated. The bible has more than 36,000 abusive psychotic statements regardless of which version you choose......... only a few thousand less than the quoran.
Yep I am encouraged to love ALL people and Jesus says this is the greatest commandment of all.
I do know of the ones Earnest quotes,but I guess I find out in due time exactly what it all means.
I guess one could take any book and quote various statements ,but it really is not being very objective (IMO)
Do you think it is objective to ignore the massive percentage of the bible that sprouts this hate filled crud, and just read the little bit that was added on and ignore the elephant in the room? I can fill this thread to the eyeballs with your god's hate from the bible.
Psychosis is written by psychotics.
I could fill these pages with His love too ,but I guess if you always look at the negative,it somewhat blinds you to anything else-Dont ya think?
You are so Old Testament... we live under a new covenant. We do not respond to the priests. And, nobody on this earth is following those commands. At least not Christians...
All of the law, [which is what you are quoting from] is summed up in this, Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, mind and soul and, love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus put an end to the law and its judgements. He was the ultimate sacrifice. We are no longer under the law...
Take some time and read the New Testament..... love ya
Read it all, studied it in depth, know about the dishonest "disconnects" that christians try to use to get around the psychosis in the OT.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
I beg to differ my friend.... Jesus clearly state Matthew 5:18-19, no doubt. But, He was operating under Old Testament law (this might get me in trouble). The New Testament was not ushered in until after He rose from the dead. At the cross Jesus states, "It is finished"... His reference was to the fulfillment of the law...
His ministry and sayings were New Testament revelations that is why the religious leaders had such a hard time with Him....
The law has been accomplished through Jesus' blood, the final sacrifice.
There are so many holes in that, I don't know where to start.....so I won't. I think I will leave the corrections to the other religiously inclined to make.
Jesus was a mere mortal whose wisdom and psychological tricks were gained as a student of Egyptian teachings that would have seemed highly advanced to ignorant invaders into the region during the spread of the Roman empire. John the Baptist had even cleverer methods and inspired Jesus to become one of many preachers of Egyptian based teachings during that period.
Jesus's obvious ability to attract a following through his teachings made him something of a rogue amongst his Hebrew led community and they reported him to their Roman masters as being a troublemaker, hence the manner of his crucifixion which was aimed at making an example of him.
The power and control of a belief system was recognised by Constantine who got his finest people to write a compelling story with Jesus at its moral core. Resurrection, parting of seas, turning water to wine all elaborate tales based on hearsay and rumours were used to captivate peoples minds and underpin the set of rules within the scripture. Under the label Christianity Constantine imposed it as the official religion during his reign and it spread throughout the Roman Empire until hey presto! - Here we are today...
I did not read it in one place
There are various historical accounts that I have simply pieced together over time to draw this conclusion. Even 'Shakespeare' has contributed to the bible's re-interpretation during its history.
There are a lot of people who simply have their head stuck in the book and presume it to be 'fact' beyond dispute. That's how mind-numbingly effective religious belief is and why it has been such a successful form of social control over the last 2000 years. Open your eyes and look at the real facts...
If that was a dig towards Jews, then you should know that Jews have a mechanism for interpreting Torah and constantly changing halakha ("the Law"). Although Christian perceptions of Judaism are stuck in an era almost 2000 years old, it has, in fact, continued to evolve.
This is probably why, on the whole, Jews behave a lot better than Christians do, all the noise about Christians loving and not being bound by the Law notwithstanding...
I've also seen or heard of many atheists who convert on their deathbed. Gives you food for thought!
It's not food for thought. It only means that they caved to the fear of dying. Nothing more.
As always, God Bless You... I wasn't trying to be offensive to anyone. The reality of my salvation and redemption keeps me filled with joy. The fact that I am certain of these things cause me to have no fear of death so, often I may sound insensitive... I apologize.
You're only saying that for your benefit. So, next time, don't waste the effort.
This statement is a sign of guilt? I didn't say you were.
Actually, this statement is false. Because regardless of what you think, reality remains unaffected.
Apologizing? For self imposed upon self guilt? Yet, you're apologizing to someone else? WOW!
Houston, what we have here is a failure to communicate.... I don't know what you mean by your comment.
Then maybe you should re-read. Try to develop better reading comprehension? You do seem to have some issues, which I'm not inclined to get into here, but are evident.
If I must explain it to you, then do let me know, after you've tried to do it on your own. I realize you don't guide yourself, so attempting to do certain things are usually difficult, but give it a go.
Nope... I'd rather you explain it to me, especially since you are so infinitely more knowledgeable and intelligent than I. Far be it for me to assume that I could ever be accurate in my understanding of your superior comments and observations.
As you suggest, I am totally dependent...
Cave as in 'In fear of God'
Shows a great deal of wisdom glory girl
To live your life full of fear from God is wisdom and Glory.
Not in my books about an all loving God and that is a hell of a way to live.
Unfortunately that word 'fear' used in scriptural conectext is often misunderstood.
The word for fear here means "reverential fear." It means that one must be serious about their relationship to God. People who "fear" the Lord are not anxious about their relationship to him, or afraid of Him, they take very seriously their responsibility to Him. We have several examples in the Bible of this concept.
So yes,it is wisdom to understand Fear of the Lord.
Watering down word meanings may work if the rest of the bible didn't make it blatantly obvious why one should fear the psycho god.
Isn't this the same god that wiped out almost all men birds et al?
What do you think divine retribution means?
Would you please move to the New Testament....
Do you think that would help?
OK I will operate from the NT for a while, but you aren't gonna like it any better than you do any other "truth" from "the word" in your sacred book.
Is the OT ripped out of your bible?
I love it
I am always fascinated how when one version of Christianity is found to be completely contradictory and ridiculous, a re-interpretation fixes everything.
Yes it sure does.
Most people fear the unkown,possibly we are wired that way for a reason
Motivation enough for me
I wonder how common that is.
They were probably taking Pascal's Wager...which seems like an opportunistic and insincere belief in something that you never felt compelled to believe in before.
Then again, it can work the other way, too, with disastrous consequences:
Opportunistic and insincere or not.... if I thought it would keep me out of Hell I'd take it too!!!
Can you imagine... would all of our rationalization be important at the point of death? All of these arguments, all of this anger.... baby, if I thought I was going to die in the next few minutes, I would not be thinking about any of this stuff... it would be about eternity... I would rather be safe than sorry.
I would have no pride.... Even if it didn't work, I would still try everything I'd ever heard..... Fear has a way of changing your thinking.... Bet....
And what if G-d doesn't want blind allegiance? What if some of those all-too-human scribes got it wrong, and the obsequiousness that humans were used to displaying to their all-too-human kings and emperors (who most certainly wanted it and demanded it) were NOT what G-d wanted at all?
Pascal's Wager has some built-in assumptions that people shouldn't necessarily be making...
You miss my point.... Nothing would matter... begging and pleading would be my course of action.
Did you see the scene in the Mummy when the guy meant the Mummy in the tomb? He pulled every amulet he had and spoke in every language that he knew, hoping that one of them would appease the Mummy. And he found one, it was Hebrew....
That guy didn't care and really had no convictions to anything... He was a hopin' and a prayin'
If I weren't sure of my salvation, I would be like that guy... I would try any and everything that I had ever heard of... If I was still wrong, it would not be said that my pride stood in the way of me trying....
I grew up with both extreme of atheist and hardcore Christian, it’s like cats and dogs yet we got along alright. I feel grateful for finding the happy adjustment between the two. Although my pastor brother today, greatly dislike all my questioning, because he can't anwer them honestly anymore.
The 3% atheists of this world will not be able to knock off 90% of the people who think there is a god? History shows number of people and weapon win out. The only other thing atheist got is global public opinion, that’s a hell of a climb for the 3% atheist pack to convince the 90%. Then there is the voting booth, how do you get your foot in the door there. Can't imagine being in an extreme atheist shoes, the torment on earth would tear me apart.
On the other hand
I give atheist more credit for what will happen in the future, as they will double in growth in 20 years and Religion will shrink because people will start to shortly follow up with their mind. Not to make that big a different in people thinking there is a God of some kind.
Well, that's a bit of an aside, since the mummy just understood Hebrew (because it was the language of the Egyptian slaves), not because he (it?) was Jewish and pleased that he thought the guy was a devotee.
It's apparently a common, but rather bizarre and primitive when you think about it, idea that you must appease some "sky god" with various supplicating activities or words, in order to be whisked off to his afterlife domain...
(I know but I just thought that was the funniest scene in the whole movie.)
The reason I used that example was to show that when a person is in the presence of a power that is greater than they are, they will use whatever they have to appease that power. Especially if that power is malevolent.
God demonstrates His power in the Old and New Testaments. In the Old we read of many accounts where God is un-creating. In the New (thank God for the New) we read of many accounts where God is re-creating. i am the result of His re-creating.
Because I am a created being, and I am, I yield to the desire of my Creator. I operate in the fear and reverence of the Lord... I will supplicate, genuflect, prostrate, praise, worship, fast, pray, give, forgive, etc. if that is what He asks of me.
Because, I understand that I have a beginning and an end and that my end is inevitable I have chosen to take Jesus as my Lord.
I have looked at many others, and have decided quite frankly that Jesus has the best deal in town...
Fundamental humanity is primitive. We intellectualize our technological advances by elevating them above this primtivity. (is that a word???). It is self-deceptive because we think that are advances negate our spiritual responsibilities.
Everybody worships something or something... (video-games, material things, HubPages, etc -that should have made you chuckle). I choose to worship the true and living God.
Primitive as it may be, I am in it to win it.....
LOL! You honestly believe a rational human being is going to worship a video game the same way you worship God?
This how they rationalize things. I beleeb in God - other peeps beleeb in stuff that is not as good like - Video games.
Therfore they is better. Becoz God is better than Video Games.
Whatever happened to your spellcheck?
Check the spelling throughout these religious threads
That is the point EG is making with his spelling. You know that, but choose to ignore it because they believe goddunnit like you do.
Disingenuous misleading dishonest statement as usual.
You are toooooooo serious. Don't you know a joke when you hear one???
However there those obsessed types who where diapers so they don't have to leave from playing their games when they need to use the bathroom....
http://www.funtechtalk.com/diaper-weari … ournament/
May be coz' their inner unsatisfaction compels them to speak up and face the truth to get satisfied.If there wasn't any GOD,there wouldn't any "Feeling" have also been existing then,as we can't see the cold or hot in actual.We just feel them.So we have faith in them that yea they do exist.Similarly we do have faith in GOD that HE really exists.
it is because most people just can't keep an open mind .most people weather you believe in a higher power or not as a pagan i know no one path is right for all.Both sides need to quite trying to force there views on the others . To those that believe in a higher power we will never have enough evidence to prove our gods exist to them. to those that do not believe in a higher power you will never change what we believe! some of us just need more believe and as a way to explain what science can't this dose not make eather side right or wrong and this dose not invalidate sicence as i believe science as well. So this realy is a moot point
Its the same god isn't it? I though he was never changing?
I think many atheists have had bad experiences from religion, which for some is the reason for their search for another meaning in life, which does not involve God. When such a search has begun, people realise how little religion is based on objective reality, but is simply a result of a desire to live forever and to believe that we all have a purpose to our lives. Atheists, who were once religious are often the most outspoken against religion, rather than people who have never had a religious faith. Just as ex-smokers hate smoking the most.
However, people who are religious should not expect their beliefs to go unchallenged. Argument is one of the best ways for people to find new meaning in their lives or to help confirm their beliefs.
Like an 'ex-smoker'? It is true that people who have had a bad experience or maybe have 'seen the non-light' are likely to be more vocal - that is no surprise. Yet I have never been indoctrinated by religion. My mother believes in it through guilt I suspect while my father thought it was a load of rubbish and believe me, as part of his Caribbean colonial education, he was spoon-fed the book from birth as was my mother.
It was fascinating when I was growing up to observe that his non-belief was based on his acute knowledge of every letter in the bible and the historical facts behind them while the mass of believers around him appeared to simply quote meaningless cryptic riddles with little true understanding of what they meant. The fear of 'Hell's fire' seemed to be their greatest motivation to believe.
I believe in mother nature and the oneness of life which we all are part of and to which we all contribute. Religion, god, ten commandments and a multitude of rules are all man-made clap-trap which was an ancient but hugely effective form of mass social control. That is why it is so acceptable to reinterpret them on a regular basis.
When it was discovered that the World was round and not flat, we did not try to justify that in some abstract way it was still flat. Yet religion and Christianity particularly, continue to insist its belief is the truth despite a multitude of solid counter arguments and facts that show otherwise.
I do not think that non-believers get touchy, they just simply express their normally rational opinions to why they don't believe. It is the irrational, nonsensical reasons presented by religious folk 'unconditionally' that becomes a frustration to the non-believer and a sensitivity to the believer...
I'm just going to post this here:
I don't think it very practical to believe that only people who share the same beliefs should talk to each other, so as to avoid differences. Argument is not a bad thing, unless it becomes personal. Attacks on people's beliefs are perfectly acceptable, if those beliefs are an excuse for racism, sexism or any other kind of bigoted views. There will never be a world where everyone agrees with each other. And I personally think this is a good thing. As to why some atheists become "touchy" about relgion, it is often because of those people who use their religion as a way of dictating to others, when they have no right to. Religion should be a personal affair, but if someone chooses to discuss it, then they should expect people to disagree with them. Attacking immorality based on religion is I believe a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
im not bashing here . simply noting my observation esp in the social medias . atheist talk more about god than any other faith . they use the word constantly . they use others religious dogma to found their disbelief i feel. belief in fairy tales , is the same as disbelief based on them.
by vector75 years ago
Why, if you don't believe that something even exists would you waste your time in these threads? And don't tell me that it's because we are spreading lies. We aren't in "other" forums talking about God and...
by janesix2 years ago
This is mostly for the atheists, but of course, anyone can give their opinion.You all say religion is to blame for much of the strife in the world. I have to agree, although I suggest it stems from things that are much...
by Claire Evans16 months ago
That's the typical Sam Harris argument. How does suffering negate God's existence? Maybe He's just watching. It doesn't mean He doesn't exist and for anyone to bring up suffering as proof of no God is...
by TheOneWhoKnows5 years ago
Why ???If you believe in God, that's cool, if you don't that's cool also.Do you really think that you can change someone's opinion whatever he believes or doesn't belive in God ?
by JG11Bravo3 years ago
It's a question that has come up more than once and I have a preconceived notion about it. Do you know the Bible? Have you read it? How "advanced" is your study of the subject? Is it a...
by Mmargie19664 years ago
I am a Christian, and an American. I believe in the freedom to believe in anything you choose to (or not). What I don't understand is why Christianity is under attack.I don't necessarily believe in...
Copyright © 2017 HubPages Inc. and respective owners.
Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners.
HubPages® is a registered Service Mark of HubPages, Inc.
HubPages and Hubbers (authors) may earn revenue on this page based on affiliate relationships and advertisements with partners including Amazon, Google, and others.