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Jesus Saves!

  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago

    He came to earth a mere mortal to sacrifice Himself shedding His blood for our Salvation.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.  You must  be born again.

    1. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Using metaphors without understanding them I see. What else is new for the religious folks. lol

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don' t see myself as religious but as righteous.  Righteousness freely give through Grace from Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

        1. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Righteous? Oh, so you're above others. Good to know you speak so highly of your self. Maybe you should check on your ego sometime.
          lol lol

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No you see it is not ego at all.  I don't say this about myself but the
            Word of God.  He says we are the righteousness of God once we give ourselves totally to Him.  You have this right as well.  This is not a club of partiality but open for all who will receive Him.

            1. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              roll

            2. heavenbound5511 profile image79
              heavenbound5511posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Those that except Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior are the righteousness of God in Jesus. Righteous because we have right standing with God through the redemption of Christ that washes our sins away.
              Everyone is free to this free gift of salvation- All.
              So holy than thous must not apply since it's an invitation of grace and mercy for all- worldwide who will say "God I accept Jesus as my Lord - so I can be cleansed from all sins and directly come to your throne of grace in Jesus name."

              1. recommend1 profile image70
                recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Has the rapture arrived and I missed the trumpets ? this is pure babble.  Could you put it into English and leave out the speaking in tongues part please.

                1. couturepopcafe profile image60
                  couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  recommend1 - I was thinking the same thing.  The Bible is a metaphor and heavenbound is simply reciting/repeating the metaphors perhaps without truly understanding them. 

                  heavenbound5511 - would you put this into your own words for us?

                2. heavenbound5511 profile image79
                  heavenbound5511posted 5 years ago in reply to this
              2. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                and eat again! The starving non christians are the problem, god provides them with everything they need, and they just don't have enough faith to get fed.

                Horrible heathen starving people are the problem!
                They are the devil's children sent here to make god look bad.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  hillarious
                  and a bit mental
                  must be sunday for you

                  1. earnestshub profile image89
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Wednesday.
                    Must you get every single point you try to make wrong?


                    Although it is entertaining some of us. smile

              3. heavenbound5511 profile image79
                heavenbound5511posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Come to Me

                      25At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26“Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

                      28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt 11...

                http://biblebrowser.com/matthew/11-24.htm

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Always funny to see the religious quoting scripture without truly understanding or knowing the metaphors used within it. lol lol lol

                2. 60
                  LeReneeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  His Sheep will know His voice, and our voices will not be silenced even in this wicked generation. Great job posting scripture, the Word never returns void.

              4. truckandlaw profile image60
                truckandlawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"--Romans 3:10
                yes there is not a person who is righteous, but once we received Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, He makes our hearts white as snow, as the scripture says, He will cleanse us from our sins that will enable us to hear his voice through the Holy Spirit. True believers of Christ can be righteous, but not true their physical might, but it will be through the grace of the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts them to do the will of God.

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You both agree that wiping out mankind is cleansing? Your biblical god is the worst mass murderer the world has ever seen according to "the word" lol

                2. Evolution Guy profile image60
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Which is it?

                  Your majik book says that none can be righteous - now you claim True Believers can be righteous?

                  I think you mean "self-righteous." wink

          2. sarasotadui profile image61
            sarasotaduiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe You mistook the meaning of righteous of the above statement cagsil. In my own personal understanding based on my personal relationship with God, being righteous is keeping yourself HOLY. At least keeping yourself Holy... Holiness is what God wants us to become to be called Children of Him. God loves us all. That is why he came to redeem the world, not for the few, but the world. What we need to do is to accept Him as our personal Lord and Saviour and everything will follow as a process.

            1. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That still doesn't change the fact that those who "claim" "holiness", always come across as being better than others. So, my statement stands, regardless of what you might think.

              Secondly, I cannot help that the gullible are the only ones who seem to think that "divinity" is real? lol

              1. sarasotadui profile image61
                sarasotaduiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hello Cagsil! I appreciate your persistence. I can't force you to get away of your shoes and put on mine. As far as I am concern, I do not "claim" holiness. Because I am not holy in the first place. At least I am trying to become one whenever possible...

                Nice day ahead! big_smile

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh, so you're saying that I should try walking a mile in someone else's shoes, before I make comments with regards to them?

                  Unfortunately, experiences for humans are the same, however, perceptions are not always the same, which is the difference. You may attribute specific things, as being holy or part of divinity, but apparently it comes from not knowing any better.

                  But, I certainly hope you try to enjoy your nice day. lol

                  1. 60
                    LeReneeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    experiences for humans are the SAME?? seriously? you've had the same experiences as everyone else? wow, talk about self righteous. Your ignorant comments are not helping your argument. You don't want to believe in anything because you don't want to be held accountable for anything. That's okay...free will and all. Good luck with that!

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I am sure that is only your reaction. The old testament showed a pattern of the shedding of blood, howbeit animal blood, In the NT christ shed his blood, howbeit human blood. Without the shedding of blood there can be no atonement. The animals did not take away the sins of the person they only covered it, hid it, because they were animals which were sacrificed, only a human could rectify this situation because he was human, therefore God humbled himself and occupied flesh to teach what was important to Him, salvation, which was the primary message of Jesus. His primary work to defeat sin in the flesh by shedding his blood for atonement for all who applied the shed blood, this is done through faith, and through the one prayer that dominantly gives its own proof, the sinners prayer. Those who claim to be righteous are indeed righteous and those who claim to be holy are indeed holy IN GODS EYES if not in their own eyes, nor in the eyes of others. This is why christians, no matter how tainted their walk is will not be judged at God the fathers judgment - the white throne judgment but will appear at the judgment seat of christ.
                Christianity is not difficult to understand. It is not all metaphor and those who unlock the deep metaphorical meanings are the only ones smart enough to get the hidden secrets. Christianity is plain and clear. We do not need to master our third eye, or study many forms of yoga or sit on a hill for 3 years, we do not need to open history books, philosophy books and study everything from hard pertinence to near pertinence. Jesus says, believe on me and repent and sincerely try to follow my ways and His sheep will hear his voice and He will know them.

    2. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      INDOCTRINATED, WHIMSICAL, MINDLESS REGURGE!!!!!!

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Can you share with me what exactly do you mean?

        1. getitrite profile image82
          getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I was raised in the Pentacostal faith.  I was taught this same imaginary stuff.  After growing up, and leaving the church, I realized that this is pure whimsical fairytale-like nonsense.

          But when I was "SAVED" I would regurgitate these same types of mindless, statements...purely from Pentacostal indoctrination.

          SORRY!!!

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No don't  be sorry.  I see you speak from the heart.  After experiencing the love of God in your heart how could you walk away from that?  I would be totally lost without Him.

            1. getitrite profile image82
              getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You sound like you would be better off without me having to explain that to you.
              It would do no good at all.

              Praise Jesus!

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                No matter what has happened in your life you must believe that God loves you and His Son, Jesus Christ loves you.

                1. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You are HOPELESSLY indoctrinated.

                  I mean, to the point of being almost like a robot.  All you are doing here is stating childish, whimsical, fraudulent nonsense that you are regurgitating from a primitive 2000 year old book...And you have no idea who actually wrote it!

                  You have been challenged from several credible hubbers(who have studied religion) but you go right on spouting this nonsense, as if you are in a trance.  OMG!!!

                  From a psychological perspective, this rigid delusional mindset is frightening!

                  BTW, God does not love me, or anybody, because God is IMAGINARY!

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

                  2. Zabbella profile image76
                    Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So if he is imaginary why type OMG???

    3. KeithTax profile image79
      KeithTaxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Why do we need saving? I thought God was perfect. How can perfection create something less than perfect, like humans? Why did God require mere humans to murder his kid before He would forgive us? Couldn't He just forgive us without the drama?

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That is a question that has been asked for centuries.  Jesus freely gave His life.  He was not forced.  Before Christ a lamb or animal was sacrificed to bring atonement for sins.  The law or its sacriments did not abolish sin.  Jesus offered Himself who knew no sin for the world.
        You can ask that question to the creator Himself if you dare.  Or you can search the scriptures for your answer to this question you are pondering.

      2. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        interesting point. I have always wondered why blood has to be shed. Blood has many interesting qualities, one is that it cleans the body of toxins another is when the blood is drained the creature dies, and others properties as well. But why shed blood at all? I think this is looking at the situation backwards. The real question is, What are we going to do with the animals we kill to eat? With Gods people the sacrifice was used, they ate the meat. 2 birds with one stone. Perhaps another train of thought could be that all this sacrifice and ritual observance kept them busy and kept their minds focused on God - a constant reminder.
        God did not kill his kid to forgive us, he killed his kid that Jesus might break the power of death - resurrection. John 3:16 describes this very event.
        For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed on him should not perish but have eternal life. If we look into the OT we see that God forgave His people of their sins lots of time, he gave them ample room to repent, but when they crossed the line, they perished. There is so much that Jesus did on that cross before and after his death that makes the cross and christs death the most important aspect of christianity. One main facet of his death is the end of the OT dispensation and the ushering in of the next system.
        Its not so much drama as His death lessened the drama. Can you imagine killing your own dinner at a communal kitchen scenario? All the bloodshed that 2 billion God followers would have produced over 2011 years.

    4. DoubleScorpion profile image86
      DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this


      Curious...If no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ...wouldn't this mean that the Father saves and Jesus just does the guiding?

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Nice to see you again doublescorpian!

      2. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Scorpion - this is how I understand it as well.  The Bible is a guidebook of how to live a good life, using love as the ultimate standard/marker.  Jesus is the guide which leads us to the implicitness of what underlies all that is - love.  I believe the great spirit, the greatest spirit, is the spirit of love.  Some call this God.  The word holy implies what is better or best, above all other.

        I believe that indoctrination interferes with true understanding - the understanding that we are all one with the same spirit, though some stray to the negative side.  When we all come together in love, we will have reached the state of Nirvana, or pure love.  Not in our lifetime, but each of us will attain a new level at intervals, so there will always be the poor and the seekers, the further enlightened and the earthly masters.   

        I also believe that Christians and those who follow a good, loving religion are at least on the right track provided they are not judgmental.  With an open mind, they may also find the path to truth and the awareness that we can all be one with (God) and therefore can be (God).  But not yet.

      3. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        through .. as in a tunnel.
        More scripture than just this one verse needs to be applied to understand what this means.

    5. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Amen. Praise the Lord!

    6. Titen-Sxull profile image94
      Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No fair, why does Jesus always get the lowest prices? Damn him and his immaculate discounts!

      In all seriousness though can you tell me what Jesus saves people from? Because I have yet to hear an answer that makes a lick of sense.

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus rescues us from spiritual death.  He rescues us from the curse of the law.  Read Deuteronomy 28: 15-58  This is the curse of the law and with Jesus blood shed on the cross He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts and believe that He is the Son of 'God and He died on the cross for our sins and once we believe in Him we will have everlasting life.  John 3:16.  We are saved by Grace.  We do not earn it . IT is freely given.

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Glad to have my immortality confirmed!

          I became a born again christian many years ago!
          Gave it up when I learned how to think logically again, and that's why I am now proposing to christians that they give up the christian gig and get properly educated instead. smile

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sounds to me like someone sold you a bill of goods.  Satan tried to do the same thing to Jesus.  So your suggestion as to what we should all believe is?

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well we could start by being honest. Why would I be sold a bill of goods and not you for starters! Smarter than all non-believers are you? Know your bible better do you?

              Open to debate with peer reviewed empirical evidence and scientific method as opposed to myth are you?

              I didn't think so. lol

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                lol sunday beers talkin folks.. nothing to hear here.. move along.

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Wednesday here brothery, the time span across the planet doesn't involve a four day difference. lol

            2. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Try believing in yourself and guiding your life. Right now, the only thing you are doing is perpetuating the hoax of religion and showing you don't actually understand your life. wink

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Neither one if you have offered up any thing that would be better than what I have in Jesus. I do believe in myself and I believe in God. Work on someone else as much as Iike you two I won't change my mind.

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  or read any threads, follow any links, reply to any discussion with other than goddunnit or learn new things.... yes I know how it goes. smile

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    smile

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah your link to simon magus and apollonus was about as effective as your posts concerning contradictions. lol
                    Wanna tell me where gravity comes from?

                2. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Again, I've said it before. You don't know what you're talking about, unless you've managed to learn each metaphor Jesus used in his parables. And, if you had, then you wouldn't actually believe in a god, but would be a master of your life.
                  Sure, you believe in yourself, just enough to believe in a god. That's not saying much.
                  I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to make you more self aware that you are not actually guiding your own life, because, like Jesus said- you won't know any better because of religion. wink

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Goodnight cagsil and thanks for caring! smile

                3. 60
                  LeReneeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  God Bless you Naomi.

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you. He does every day of my life!

        2. 61
          robertm12posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Isn't god powerful enough that he really didn't need to send his son to die? He is god, he has all the power in the world. I don't understand why he had to make it so dramatic. If i am writing a book, i decide what happens to the characters. I can edit and delete the ones i no longer want. Doesn't god have these same capabilities?

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God loves mankind.  He wants us to choose Him.  If He does as you suggest than our relationship with Him is forced.  That is not a true relationship. He desires us to desire Him.

            1. 61
              robertm12posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So does god have a divine plan or do we have free will? "Thy will be done?" I'm not saying he has to force us to love him but he could ease our burdens just a hair. I would do anything in the world for my kids to make life easier. Why doesn't god feel the same way about us? What about people in other countries who never hear of god? Do they go to hell? They can't choose him if they don't know of him. And he sure isn't introducing himself to strangers.

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Get the book all your answers are in there.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                He does ease the burdens but he also, at the same time, seeks to do an eternal work in us. He is preparing us in our lifetime, for eternity. If i need something i give the situation or object to God and wait to see what the outcome is, it doesn't get any easier. Things get harder when self wants something now or when self wants something that will hurt their spiritual walk. Gods hardest job is not dealing with sin, but dealing with peoples self. This is where the religion of 'understanding self' as a gateway to God falls short of Gods requirements, because is not all about ourself but about Himself.

                Other countries who never heard of God. Since there is no hell, no they don't go there, suffering forever to those 'innocents' would be unjust and God is not unjust. Under either dispensation of God, OT or NT we see that there are those who know God and those that don't know God or more precisely, know the God of the bible. Perhaps this is why God is bothering to have a 1000 year period of rule on the earth, to tie up some loose ends so to speak. Thank God the bible is spreading around the world and many who had no chance before will get a chance. People who have nothing more often than not, have greater faith than those who have lots of stuff.

                1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  My understanding is all peoples will have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached before the rapture

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The most important doctrine is Christ crucified.
                    Go with God sis smile

              3. Zabbella profile image76
                Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                To answer Robet12..God is introducing himself to others by way of missionaries.  People go traveling to spread the new to those who don't know about God.

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If there's a person on this whole planet who doesn't know that other people believe a god exists? Then they should take their head out of the sand and clean out their ears. lol

                  There's absolutely no rhyme or reason for people to go around telling people about their beliefs, so as to convert them. That's just idiots meddling in the affairs of other people's life. lol

        3. Titen-Sxull profile image94
          Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          "Jesus rescues us from spiritual death."

          That's a new one on me, unless spiritual death is code for Hell in which case I've heard it and refuted it before. Why are people in danger of spiritual death? Why would God create a system where the default after people die is to go to Hell (spiritual death)?

          "He rescues us from the curse of the law."

          God set up the law though right? I thought God was the same yesterday, today and forever... so why did he change his mind about the law? Furthermore Jesus states that not a letter will pass away from the law in Matthew and that he came to fulfill the law not destroy it. If the law is what puts folks in danger of Hell why did God help Moses set it up in the first place? Seems like you're admitting that God made a mistake.

          "He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts"

          From a curse that he put on us right? What a nice protection racket he's got going, set up the souls to fall into spiritual death and then demand worship and adoration as payment for "saving" the souls he put into danger himself.

          "We do not earn it . IT is freely given."

          Except that it costs you your autonomy, it's not freely given if in order to get it you have to change who you are completely and submit yourself to be a slave to this Jesus fellow. Having a Turn or Burn (or in your opinion "spiritually die") system is hardly loving.

          As for not earning it there are numerous passages which show God/Jesus judging mankind by THEIR DEEDS rather than just whether or not they accepted Jesus (Revelation 21:8 for instance), so the Biblical jury is out as to that issue.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "Jesus rescues us from spiritual death."

            Spiritual death is not hell. Man is flesh and flesh is carnal prone to sin and to believe in what it sees, hears, touches, tastes and smells - physical evidence, even science. Jesus said:
                "John 16:7   Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (speaking of His death on the cross)
                 "John 3:6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
            There is a difference between the flesh and spirit. They are in fact, opposites. Jesus died to bring us into the Spirit of God.

            "He rescues us from the curse of the law."

            God gave moses 10 commandments. 5 pertaining to God and 5 pertaining to man. Not that much demand. Later on God showed them how to worship Him and serve Him. The law pointed out sin but did not give his people power to overcome the sin and the law became a curse or an albatross. Keep off the lawn, but what do you do, you want to step on it, right? You get my point. The law was just the law, there was no power in it, it did not make men overcomers it made them doers of works. This is the first dispensation.

            "He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts"
            As stated at the beginning, with the new dispensation, the NT, came power, the power to change lives. Gods spirit in his people.
               John 15:4   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

            "We do not earn it . IT is freely given."
            Salvation is freely given. All we need do is open our mouths and enter into it. God gives this opportunity to everyone, without charge, free, just speak the words:
                Romans 10:9   That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
            What the christian does after salvation, the sinners prayer as i like to term it just because this kind of formality "gets the ball rolling",  determines the quality of their eternal life. That part is not free. God does not just want to bring people up to a level of niceness but he wants also to take all people, even the nice ones, up to his level.

            Rev 21:8
            pertains unto the Fathers judgment, Gods judgment - not christs judgment.. these people being talked about are the unsaved. All the saved are judged by christ, for better or worse. All unsaved are judged by God himself.
               "Romans 14:10   But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nought your brother? for WE shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

            I will need a scripture of reference as to your statement, "as for not earning it, there are numerous passages which show God/Jesus judging mankind by their deeds.

            1. Titen-Sxull profile image94
              Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              "God gave moses 10 commandments. 5 pertaining to God and 5 pertaining to man. Not that much demand."

              God gave Moses 10, but he gave the Israelites several hundred, including prohibitions on eating shellfish, a man wearing anything that "pertains" to a woman, and cursing your Father and Mother (punishable by death). It's true that in Exodus 20 God sets up what are traditionally called the Ten Commandments however it's worth nothing that in Exodus 21 God directly sets up slavery for the Israelites.

              "The law was just the law, there was no power in it, it did not make men overcomers it made them doers of works."

              So what you're saying is that God's first plan failed miserably. Explain to me how its possible for a perfect being to fail. It doesn't seem logically consistent with the modern trait of absolute perfection attached to this God.

              "Gods judgment - not christs judgment"

              God and Jesus cannot disagree on something AND be part of the same being, unless God suffers from a major case of multiple personality disorder. How can a perfect being disagree with itself?

              "I will need a scripture of reference as to your statement"

              Matthew 25 starting with verse 31, also I already mentioned Revelations. There's also 2nd Corinthians 5:10. Matthew 16:27, etc. The Biblical jury is out as to whether it is faith, works, or some combination of the two that we will be judged by.

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Gods plan didn't fail man failed

                1. Titen-Sxull profile image94
                  Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Than God's plan failed to take into account man's propensity for failure. That still counts as God failing. It is not logically possible for a perfect God to produce imperfection thus either God exists and is imperfect, God doesn't exist, or a perfect God does exist but is not the creator.

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    There was always that chance that man would fail.  I certainly won't try to disect God's mind or second guess why he did what he did.  I believe he wanted to give man choice a free will which is what makes us a higher species than the birds, insects, and other animals.  We have a mind that has the ability to philosophize, choose right or wrong, etc.  He could easily as our creator made the decision to force us to do whatever he wanted but what kind of relationship would that be?

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                however it's worth nothing that in Exodus 21 God directly sets up slavery for the Israelites.
                Its also worthy to note that exodus 21 are judgments not commandments . God is handling problems that the hebrews are having. Notice in verse 5.. And if the SERVANT shall say, I LOVE MY MASTER.... hmm, the way you make it sound is like opposite to this verse. Slaves treated badly do not love their masters. As i said before the hebrews did not mistreat their servants and every 7 year they were set free... what other nation set their servants free?

                So what you're saying is that God's first plan failed miserably.
                I did not say that at all. Gods first plan did what it was supposed to do. It put mankind in a position of choosing Him if they wanted to or not.

                How can a perfect being disagree with itself?
                I said were there are two judgments, one of christ and one of God .. and you come back and say... how can they disagree.... What i said has nothing at all whatsoever to do with disagreeing. God wants to judge the wicked and Christ will reward His sheep.

                Thanks for the scripture references.
                In God we cannot earn salvation - that is a gift - we do not 'work' our way into, pardon the term, heaven. But if we do nothing then we are unprofitable servants (matthew  25:30) James 2:14 onward, says it best.

      2. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Spiritual death is simply a misery of the soul, the opposite of which is pure love.  Learn to lead with a loving heart and your eyes will be opened to a lightness of spirit.  You cannot die physically but you can make your life a misery.  This is the death from which the metaphor of Jesus saves us.  'He' is trying to show us how to live in our spirit.

    7. nightwork4 profile image60
      nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      B.S. if jesus was real how can he be called a mere mortal. supposedly he could heal the sick with just a thought, feed thousands with one fish and loaf of bread etc. saying he gave his life is a joke if the fables are true. the guy supposedly died and came back to life. yup, that's a mere mortal.

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Where gave you been there are lots of people who have died medically and through prayer offered over them in the name of Jesus they were raised from the dead. There is nothing my God can't do.

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol  This is one of the reasons it is difficult to take Christian claims of anything seriously.  Statements that fly in the face of what everyone knows to be the truth completely undermine your credibility. You can't post fantasy and expect anyone to believe it.

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Presumptive, for any Holy Spirit filled believer KNOWS what we speak of the be truth, so your presumption about 'everyone' is merely your opinion, and frankly those who deny the power of God and His Holy Spirit are a minority, albeit a highly vocal minority, but nevertheless a minority.

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              B S. I don't know one Christian foolish enough to lay claim that there is proof people have been raised from the dead. Saying it, does not make it so, and no one need pretend that it does out of courtesy.

              Isn't there some prohibition against lying? I would think a bald faced lie would fall into the category of sin. I suppose that would make this thread a sinner's den, since christians within it flaunt the sin without repentence.

              Where's this spirit you lay claim to when we need it?  smile

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Honestly my dear you really don't get it do you. Sad really.

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Actually, maybe you should look in the mirror? lol

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    smile. I don't know why but I like you cagsil!

                2. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I noticed you posted a second post to point out a spelling error. You do know you can edit your post after you've hit submit?

                  And, as to me not getting it.I do get you and aquasilver. I understand the born again philosophy. I shake my head at it. I think of it as a shallow faith.  I'm so sorry that you are in need of fabricating stories in order to have faith in the unseen.

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I can't edit on my smart phone or at least I haven't figured out how yet. Lol
                    The one think I dislike more than anything is dishonesty and I do nit practice it and I ask again please do not me a liar for I do not post to benefit myself these forums do not mean that much to me and I certainly would not compromise my relationship with God to do so. I am not a liar please do not insinuate I am.

              2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                As long as you continue to deny Him you can't experience that " spirit " you speak of. Once your born again you are filled with the holy spirit.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry, you still don't quite get it. I'm not denying or denouncing anything but foolish statements by adults who should understand that fabricating stories and attempting to pass them off as truth, in a sad attempt to make themselves appear to be better than others, is wrong.

                  I'm beginning to worry that fundamental christianity has not taught its adherents the difference between right and wrong

                  1. lone77star profile image91
                    lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    And your proof for this "fabrication" is?...

                    Making accusations without proof... tsk, tsk!

                  2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Until you get the title Judge and I am in your court room please save me your judgemental accusations.  They don't effect me for I know the truth and no one is being hurt by my faith in healing.  Please give it a break.

            2. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hey Aqua, not even you are "holy spirit filled" and as for anyone else on this planet, neither are they. Their(including you) actions alone speaks volumes. As for speaking truth? Apparently, lying to themselves is acceptable, so they don't know the difference when they are lying to others.

              So much for "holy spirit" filled believers. roll

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Oh what little you know, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I see perfectly fine. And, I'm sure you do also. So with that said, you perpetuate knowingly the lies of religion. Like I said, actions speaks volumes.

                  Yes, understand that there could be a higher power, but not a higher authority. Got it? I certainly hope so, I wouldn't want to have to make an example out of you yet again. wink

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    "perpetuate knowingly the lies of religion"?
                    I bring the truth as I have discovered it, what you chose to not believe is your matter. If you have PROOF against the power of Christ present it.

                    But not a "higher authority", than you presumably?

                    Do you really not understand that any higher power (and if you accept there is a higher power, you must accept there is a highest)must by default have authority over YOU.

                    I think you can take it as read that what you think is totally irrelevant to me, so make what you will. I only came here because you guys were playing tag team against Naomi, why waste the time talking to you.

                  2. lone77star profile image91
                    lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Cags, your Homo sapiens eyes, perhaps, but your spiritual eyes are dead asleep. Otherwise, you wouldn't say such lies. And your ego is such a strapping young lad! Clever little devil. wink

                    Confidence with humility is not the same thing as ego. But if you're swimming in ego, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  cool

              2. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I don't see any behaviour that would indicate any sort of spirit from the religionists, except when they have obviously hit the whisky and their lies get bigger. smile

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Gee maybe you aren't around us on a daily basis. You should check your bible again in case you forgot and see what christ was like and see what happened around acts chapter 2 when peter stood up to talk to the crowd.
                  This filling of the spirit is not just a one time thing and poof, a perfect christian... then we wouldn't learn things and we would be elaborate puppets. When we need the Spirit we will get the spirit. Hubpages doesn't rate high enough for a holy Ghost revival, but inspired things are said.

                  1. earnestshub profile image89
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You trying to tell me you're not elaborate puppets? I can understand not being elaborate, but not puppets?

                    I find that hard to reconcile with the posts I see here daily! lol

          2. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Secondly, there are many instances of people being raised form the dead, Smith Wrigglesworth had a lot recorded and he was prepared to raise folk whenever God told him to do so.

            In reality you simply do not know what God has done, is capable of doing and will do in the future, I will second Naomi's statement, God can (and does) do anything He chooses to do, including shake the nations as we speak.

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              roll I won't pretend that your lie is not a lie. But, I don't know what point it serves to carry on a dialogue if I'm the only one involved attempting to be honest.

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Likewise I see little point in continuing with someone who tries to claim the moral highground over something they have no understanding or experience about.

                Best call it quits and go back to reading my book.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ah yes. Please, give absolutely no evidence to back up your claims. Just lay the blame on me for not blindly accepting your statements. This might be why only 2.9% of christians agree with the Pentecostals. Most people can't be bamboozled.

                  I looked up info on the pentecostal preacher you said was prepared to prove he could raise the dead. My only response is, lol

                  Get real. If he weren't a liar he would have been more than just prepared. He would have done it.

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No laying of blame, it is not your fault that you cannot understand.

                    Smith Wrigglesworth was well recognised for raising the dead, so I really cannot think what you were reading, anyhow, chunter onward with your diatribe of disbelief, I care not, better things to do.

          3. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            My dear emilie apparently you are not as informed as you thought you were because there is lots of documented evidence of people being raised from the dead and it is happening right in this age nit to mention smith willglesworth. It would do no good to produce documentation here for you to read as you can't see truth when it is revealed to you. You are welcome to call me a liar or whatever else you want it doesn't matter to me as your defamation of character does not stop me from proclaiming the truth if the gospel. I assure you I could find you the proof of my statements. Right here in the town that I live in we have seen the knd healed documented by medical doctors and witnessed by many onlookers and damaged limbs healed, cancer gone etc. All documented to prove to wanta be scholars that god is real and through Jesus name healings take place all the time. Funny though in Africa where faith is strong people are being raised from the dead but the news media wants no part of yelling these stories. But alas if CNN or fox news doesn't report it or if it isn't found in Wikipedia then it can't be true......

            1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That is supposed to say blind healed

            2. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              One case. Please provide documented, verified truth  of one case that the scientific community accepts as a miraculous healing. If you can do that, you could easily prove that you aren't simply spinning yarns.

              I can't think of one person that wouldn't be thrilled to find that miracles are true. But very few people, myself included, like to lie. I won't agree to pretend that something is true when it clearly isn't.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                John 11:14   Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
                John 11:43   And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

                Matthew 22:30   For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
                Matthew 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

                There are more but later, if i have to.

                Again bible doctrine supports raising from the dead and resurrection.
                You must have a very thin bible.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol lol lol lol

                2. getitrite profile image82
                  getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol        lol
                  lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol   lol
                                lol lol lol lol
                                          lol                lol
                  lol    lol
                       lolhttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Yofclef/Smiley%20faces/laughbug-1.gif

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Now there's 2 posts i can agree with  smile

        2. nightwork4 profile image60
          nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          no such thing as prayer bringing a dead person back to life and you know that.i don't mind religious arguements but that one is lame. how about the people who died, came back but no one was praying for them or they were athiests. it's just how the human body is, not some religious interference

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Bible specifically and on purpose says, "by now lazarus stinks" as he had been dead 4 days. I've heard stories about bells attached to coffins so just in case the person considered dead wanted out of their coffin.. etc... NDE are almost deaths but not quite... But in the case of lazarus, and in the case of Christ on the cross and in the case of promised future resurrections, we see that even death is not an impossible opponent.

      2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        His faith enabled him to be able to do this.  We also have this ability with the right faith.  Remember the scripture, "  If anyone says to this mountain, be lifted up and thrown into the sea and does not doubt in his heart but believes that hat he says will happen it will be done for him." That is faith in action.  Peter walked on the water just like Jesus did until he lost faith and got into fear.  Moses hit the rod onto the rock and water came out of it did that make him a supernatural being or someone that trusted and believed the Word of God?!

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Moved any mountains lately? lol Walked on water perhaps? smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You always say that when the click word mountains is mentioned.
            it gets funnier all the time. smile

          2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Mountains was stated of an example that anything us possible. I did move a mountain when I prayed and others prayed for my healing from blood sugar issues and I was completely healed and symptom free for at least five years now! God is good and Hus mercy industry forever!!!

            1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Endureth

            2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Endureth

              1. Evolution Guy profile image60
                Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Forsooth, the lady doth speak in ancient tongues. Doth thou verily witneff that the mountain was not a mountain and simply a change in diet?

                Go on - move a mountain for us. lol lol

                1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Not at all Evolution Guy.  On the contrair I was able and am still able to eat the sugar if I so choose.  If you read my Hub the Cure for Diabetes is in your Mouth you will see that I tested out my faith to see if I was truly healed.  Now I do follow a healthy diet but before the healing if I ate a large amount of carbs or any kind of sugar even large amounts of fruit created a serious drop in my blood sugar to in the forties at times.  If you know anything about blood sugar you would know that is dangerously low.  I have had no symptoms since praise God for His faithfullness.

                  1. Evolution Guy profile image60
                    Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well done. Following a healthy diet will definitely change your blood sugar swings. Congratulations on losing the weight. That will definitely cure you of self inflicted diabetes. No god necessary. I have helped at least 5 people myself to "cure" their diabetes by losing weight and changing diet.

                    They thanked me and themselves instead of thinking it was majik.

                    Now go put 100 pounds on and eat 5 pints of ice cream a day and genuinely test god's faithfullneff. I guarantee your diabetes will return.

                    Guess that makes me more powerful than god huh? lol

    8. www.lookseenow profile image60
      www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Of course Jesus saves, but there is more to this than just saying it.  The ones who say it, and mean it are ambassadors substituting for Christ. If you are following this thread of saying it in so many ways that Jesus saves are you missing the point? 

      To get saved what does he expect us to do?  A lot of rhetoric means like what one-liners use in comic mimics—your line, my line- everybody’s line—but with no results.  Where’s the results?  Again I point out where are your references—where did you read that? 

      Getting back to your claim Jesus saves, what is our obligation as ambassadors substituting for Christ? Let him answer, because he has all authority in heaven and on the earth. 

            “As my ambassador you should be preaching, going to the people, knocking on doors, and inviting them to have Bible Studies.  This is the procedure I, Jesus launched, and it has been going strong ever since.  A Bible study is my will to teach, make disciples, and baptize them to observe all the things he has commanded us.”  (Matthew 28:18-20)

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You are correct thanks for your response!

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wait, what?

        Matthew 28:18-20

        18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

        19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

        20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

        That says absolutely nothing about a bible study or knocking on anyone's door.  How could Jesus have possibly lead a Bible Study?

        1. www.lookseenow profile image60
          www.lookseenowposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          He said to make disciples.  He said Teach them to observe all the things I have commanded you.  Where is this curriculum to do the teaching of his commandments?  As a matter of fact that’s exactly what he did—knock on doors as he traveled throughout the land then later sending out teams of six, much later teams of 35 they too knocked on doors teaching them all the things he had commanded them. 

          Of course they didn’t have the rest of what we have today Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the apostles, Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, ant the list goes on for what we now use to teach the things that he has commanded. 

          Jesus certainly did launch a time honored profession knocking on doors, conducting Bible studies so that eventually—it’s not that easy—and with much effort a disciple of Christ is made.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I get where you're coming from.  And it's fine that you interpret it that way.  But you have to acknowledge that it's a pretty loose interpretation of a verse rather than the verse itself.  If you could note that when posting verses (or at least the verbatim source), I think it would go a long way in avoiding misunderstandings.

    9. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I just want to thank everyone who participated in this forum.  I feel there was a lot learned my myself and I would hope that others gained some understanding as well.
      The one thing that is for sure as I write in the forums I am learning about myself and how the way I speak in writing is perceived and I also have learned that you can't inject tone into a piece of writing unless you are careful very careful with the words that you choose to express yourself.

    10. Wayne Tully profile image60
      Wayne Tullyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Born Again...So I'll have to climb back in my Mothers Fanjita (Sorry folks!...er sorry mam!) and then slide out! Jesus H Christy!!!???

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Born again simply means dieing to sin and renewing spiritman. Your flesh is not born again your spirit.

        1. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That's what you think the metaphor "born again" means? hmm

          1. sonfollowers profile image91
            sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus, who started the "born again" thing during his conversation with Nicodemus, said it was a spiritual rebirth.  The first birth is physical.  The second one is spiritual.  He didn't consider it a metaphor.  It is an event.  And Jesus considered that event to be a requirement for each person who would go to heaven (ie. eternal life).  In your opinion how does His use of "born again" in that conversation translate into a metaphor?

            1. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Pure assumption based on what's written within the book you read. There's other factors not known nor are spoken within that book, which matter.
              That is the only thing that matters in existence(life).
              Doesn't exist. Spirituality, a.k.a. "mysticism" was debunked decades ago.
              Again, pure assumption based on what you were taught, without knowing other factors.
              Prove it without using any source from the book(religion) you read.
              Your lack of knowledge is showing through- (ie. Heaven) is also a metaphor. The question is what's represent?
              First off, you would have to understand more than just that. You have to understand "humans" development of that time, to put it into proper context. Otherwise, it's intellectually dishonest. The metaphor "born again" is about developing a new view and it had nothing to do with anything spiritual, simply because Jesus understood the problem with many people of his time. Almost all of the people Jesus was teaching, wasn't even aware of their own existence. Which means, they were not self-aware. Which, why Jesus taught them "I AM". It's all about becoming self-aware.

              1. sonfollowers profile image91
                sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Interesting thoughts.  So where are you getting your information about spirituality being "debunked"?  Actual sources would be great, so I can understand where you're coming from.  I'm interested in where you're getting your information.

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It's actually part of human history. Didn't you go to school? I don't mean for that to sound mean or anything, but when the human consciousness was understood in the 70's-80's, spirituality went out the window. Only those who chose not to learn about consciousness, didn't accept it.

                  Spirituality was born from mysticism. Mysticism is what was debunked, so anything tied to it or based on it, is also debunked. wink

                  1. sonfollowers profile image91
                    sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Christianity really has nothing to do with mysticism.  I'm not sure why you maintain that they are linked.  Christians believe that a God exists who created all of this, including us.  Debunked?  No.  Christians believe that Jesus was a historical figure sent from this God.  Debunked?  No.  Christians believe that the writings found in the gospels are a historical account of actual events as they were experienced an understood by the authors.    Debunked?  No.  Debunking "mysticism" (assuming that's been achieved) has no effect on the validity of the claims of Christianity.

            2. Evolution Guy profile image60
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You are Jesus. You need to crucify your ego on the cross to be born again.

              Shocking that so many Christians do not understand the metaphorical imagery of the bible and look for majik to happen by some one else doing the work.

        2. Wayne Tully profile image60
          Wayne Tullyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But what if there was a turtles head poop in my pants and I knew full well that Jesus put it there, What then!!? Does he turn the turtle headed poop into bread and wine and you are free to be born again!????!!

    11. SheliaKay profile image60
      SheliaKayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I have been reading the comments for days now so please forgive me for jumping in on this discussion. It is so obvious that Christians are very closed minded when it comes to even their own belief's compared to others. Atheists/agnostics seam to me more knowledgeable about all the world religions. I to was guilty of being closed minded when it came to this Religion until one day many years ago when my questions about the bible could not be answered without someone quoting one of the scriptures so I did my own research away from the all too famous "king James version" Bible which by the way I had been told was the only true bible. The more I became educated about organized Religions the more it all sounded so ridiculous to me. I have attended so many different churches from coast to coast throughout the United States within so many different denominations way too many to list but I became the most enlightened by some of the back woods churches of the coal fields of West Virginia. These are some of the most closed minded, uneducated people I have ever met. Please don't shoot me, I have met some very  intelligent people there as well, all outside of the Churches of course. Although I had never attended one of the famous "snake churches" of that region but according to those people taking up serpents and drinking poison is in the bible as well so if you are going to believe every word written by some obviously uneducated  prehistoric men you might as well drink poison and play with copperheads too. If you claim the bible is the word of God but only some parts of the bible should be followed and others ignored. Sorry, I just can't accept this religion to be true. A quote from well educated Judge Judy says: "if it doesn't make since, then it can't be true"  That is how I look at things in life. If you did not see the documentary "Jesus Camp" I am posting a link, it's a must see. It shows  how Religion (Christianity) today brainwashes our children. It's sickening.  Now with that being said, I am going to go light a candle and meditate.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

    12. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      To save us from what? Himself? lol... There is nothing to be saved from and you are immoral every day you allow someone else to pay for your sins. You Christians put the nails in hands and feet every day you accept his murder for your benefit.  Christianity is thereby the most immoral religion in the world.

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus died for your sins whether you receive Him or not He did it because He loves you and me! For God so loved the world that He gave His only son that whosoever ( that's you ) believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life! So whether we choose to accept the salvation or not he would have done it anyway as He loves us ( you ) that much!

        1. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Can you use anything other than the bible, which states that is true?


          Edit: Rephrase- anything other than a religious book.

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Considering this whole duscussion was taken from a comment about jesus who happens to be in the Bible that I believe in there is no other evidence that stands stronger than the Word of God

            1. Evolution Guy profile image60
              Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Scribblings in a book that were copied from other religious ideas do not constitute "evidence." Seeing as none of the writers of the Gospels ever even met this mythical entity - don't be surprised if no one accepts what you say as anything other than self-righteous nonsense. wink

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I won't be surpirsed that there are those that will turn their backs on the Word of God.  That has happened for thousands of years.  I choose to accept the written Gospel as the inspired written Word of God and that is my choice.  Your choice is to believe only in what you see but I choose to believe in Him even though I have not seen Him.  I know Him as He lives in me and His spirit teaches me about Him.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image60
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol

        2. Jerami profile image80
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          kinda so and kinda Not!



              OK   good night Yawl.

        3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So god loved us so much he had his son murdered for us? sounds like a sick god. Why would it need to have a murder committed so it could forgive?

          Second, if Jesus gave his life so I am saved, then I am saved whether I like it or not. Why do I need to believe anything?

          Third, if you accept that Jesus was murdered so you can go to heaven then you are immoral. You are not taking responsibility for your own so called sins. You are taking advantage of the murder of an innocent for your own benefit. I find that despicable. Don't you?

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Those are your morals.  I go by the morals taught in the Word of God.  You don't have to believe that is your choice.  God gives you that choice.  But....if you do choose to believe in Him and accept Jesus in your heart and confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive you your sins.  You are only saved if you ask Jesus to come into your heart and confess your sins.  Then you are given Salvation which includes a huge barrage of blessings.  I am not forcing you to believe.  I am only telling you what I know from the Bible that I choose to believe.  I care about you all and pray that you all will come to the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.
            You do not have to accept what I say is true.  If you choose to disregard my message that is your choice and you will be no better or no worse because of it but if you choose to believe and pray the sinners prayer than you are free from the curse of the law and free from sin.  Your yoke of bondage will be lifted.  Jesus freely gave,  I did not ask Him to give His life for me He planned it that way.  His choice.  I would not insult Him but refusing to accept a gift freely given.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              you still have not answered why a god would need to murder his son to forgive us. And if he has forgiven us then it is a done deal. No need for me or anyone to believe it.

              The reason you need to have faith is because there is no god. Faith keeps the myth alive. There is nothing to be saved from. I have no yoke of bondage unless I accept one, and I don't.

              The bible was written by primitive uneducated superstitious people. The only thing it is good for is a look inside the mind of primitives. And yet Christians think it is truth.

              If you know it's history you know what a load of nonsense it is. But Christians do not want to know it's history.

              Thanks for caring but it is not required,

  2. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 5 years ago

    So what happens to all those other poor souls such as myself?

    1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus loves you and is crying out to you.

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      In other words, go to hell. lol...

  3. Juskat profile image60
    Juskatposted 5 years ago

    "Jesus saves" is true in itself.  Jesus came to save All of us - he made a great sacrifice for us and we sure owe HIM all honor and glory.  HIS name is worthy to be praised. Amen

    1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      He us worthy to be praised! Amen

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      He wouldn't have had to if his father wasn't the mafia boss who required a murder before he could forgive us. So praise Jesus and curse god for being a tyrant egomaniac with a blood lust. lol..

      If you see some loving in what god did to his son then I am glad you are not my parent. wink If murder  = love in the eyes of Christians they may need mental help.

      1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
        Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You see the plan was very simple.  Jesus knew when He chose to give up His life that God would raise Him from the dead in three days and He was willing to pay that price.  He is so loving that way.  The mafia boss does what he does to benefit himself but God did what He did to benefit us all.  That is a big difference.  That is love.

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Is that why he wiped out all but 8 people one time? Because he loves us?
          Who would us be then?

          1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
            Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            When you create a bowl of clay and shape that clay into something you have every right to smash that clay or whatever as you created it which makes it yours. Who are we to question God's motives.

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I don't need to question the invisible psychopathic entity at all, I just marvel at the idea of following a non existent mythical lunatic who would wipe out people as if they were a piece of clay!

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Really? So when I invent sentient life in a test tube and throw it in the fire that's my right? You see? I don't think Christians know the meaning of the word morality. And that is because they take their idea of morality from primitives and barbarians.

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Seems your god does what it likes to benefit itself. Also, Jesus is god according to the Roman version of the myth. So he murdered himself and raised himself from the dead, Great if he was a human. Meaningless if he was a god. It's not love, it's theatrics.

  4. 0
    Emile Rposted 5 years ago

    From everything I've heard, this born again philosophy is considered shaky, from a scriptural standpoint. Mentioned only once in the gospel of John. I've copied a little from Wikipedia:

    The quotation from the Gospel of John has raised some questions about the meaning and authenticity of the phrase "born again". In the chapter, Nicodemus is puzzled and asks Jesus what he means by saying that "Ye must be born again". He questions: "How can a man re-enter his mother's womb?" Bart D. Ehrman says that this confusion is because in Greek (the language of the gospel) the word again is ambiguous. It might mean again or a second time or from above, which would explain Nicodemus' confusion. However, the Jews at Jesus' time were actually speaking Aramaic, in which language there would not have been a double meaning. Ehrman says that this raises questions about the authenticity of the dialogue, the meaning of the words, and, therefore, the use of the phrase.

    A 19th century source notes that the phrase was not mentioned by the other Gospellers, nor by the Apostles except Peter. "It was not regarded by any of the Evangelists but John of sufficient importance to record." And, without John, "we should hardly have known that it was necessary for one to be born again." This suggests that "the text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly, and not to the world." Otherwise, it would have been mentioned more often.


    With that in mind, do you consider it right to attempt to announce to the world that no one can have a relationship with God, other than by following your limited understanding of the scriptures?

    1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      To be born again is to die to sin and renew our lives to eternal life accepting Jesus Christ as our one and only Saviour.  This is a simple term to describe the act of beginning over as  a new creature in Christ.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It doesn't matter how you define it; or, I would  assume the more accurate statement might be how your preacher has explained it. The point is, that this is not shown to be a requirement, within your scriptures, in order to have a relationship with God, or Christ. Many sects don't see this in the scriptures.

        Considering this fact, do you not have any reservations about arguing in support of your statement? You are, in effect, saying that any who don't agree with you are cut off from God until they do agree.

        1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
          Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I am simply repeating what I have read in the scriptures.  Whether you choose to believe it or not I do read and study the scriptures.  Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is alredy condemned, because h has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. John 3:18 THCSB

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That is a completely different statement from your OP. Are you now saying that it is not necessary to be born again?

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Emile, You know, just once, I would love for these who enjoying stating scriptures and claim to read and study the bible, to actually read some of the ancient copies we have. I am sure they would find things a little different that what is printed in the bible they are actually using.

              Or even take a class or two...I mean really...Yale offers the complete OT and NT courses on video for free.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Really? I might check that out. That's incredibly nice of them. If you just go to the Yale website, can you easily find the link?

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Here is the link if you are interested.
                  http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies

              2. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                True! I have ceased to wonder why they won't study it fully. The sources are credible to most of the world. Religious or not.

                These days it is so easy to compile all the documentaries on religious history and cross-reference them with the bible that anyone with a reading age of 12 could become an expert.

                The pedantic use of scripture should be a thing of the past, nothing is served by regurgitating threats made by individual's brain chemistry and the part the medulla which operates their fear.
                It ain't gonna happen for those poor individuals who were indoctrinated at an early age.

                It's like talking to a computer that has no access to any data outside a single program.

                Simply, they are too afraid to address reality.

                1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Why would I need someone else to study the same scripture I have access to and interpret it for me I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. That's like saying I should have someone from Yale read the Thornbirds and tell me what it says.

                2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Why would you perceive my comment as a threat?

                  1. earnestshub profile image89
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Because they are threats I guess! lol You threaten by proxy with an invisible sky fairy.

              3. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                What makes you so sure I haven't studied?

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  It's already obvious to me you've not done any real study of the book you supposedly read. Which is why I said what I said in my first post.

                2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Why would you think I was talking about you? I was just talking in general actually. I have had many discussions with many who have flat out said that they only used the bible and do not require any teaching other than what God provides.

                  1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Obviously you were talking about me as I am the one who made the post that  you detest so much.  It is amazing to me that you three show up in all the posts about God even though you so adimately oppose Him and His Word.  If you perceive the Words of the Bible so disgusting then why bother posting.  Why not visit other forums that talk about matters you really care about.

            2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              No it's not. To be born again is to accept Jesus as your savior. It is very simple really.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It is very simple, but the answer is definitely not the one you choose to believe. But, since I see you told Ernest you prefer not to take advantage of scholarly study of the scriptures, you may never know if your belief is in line with truth.

              2. lone77star profile image91
                lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Naomi, Emile makes a good point. Scholarly study, plus a study of other religious thought and philosophy will help.

                What is "accepting Jesus?" I've talked to some Christians who think that merely saying they "accept Jesus" is all they need to do, then they're free to commit any crime.  What a lousy sense of faith and logic that is. Saying that one wants to follow Jesus, but then turning around and then following Mammon, or ego, is nothing short of self-deception.

                Yes, it's all very simple, but we usually bring too much complexity to the interpretation.

                Being "born again?" What does this mean? It is being born of the spirit, right? But what does this really mean? It means not living in the ego, for ego is a created pseudo-self -- a physical construct. One must deny one's ego self in order to awaken the sleeping child of God within.

                The Bible also talks of reincarnation and karma, but many Christians refuse to consider these because of dogma and shallow interpretation. Don't be afraid to look beyond the interpretations of the last two thousand years. A lot of ego has crept into the church.

                1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                  Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I have studied your way in the colleges.  I learned a basic grasp of the scriptures but there is way more in the scriptures than what you can learn in a classroom.  The Bible plainly states to ask for wisdom and He will give it to you.  I am not against study just found it lacking.  I have read the Bible through five times not to mention the hours of study I have given to it and never have I heard it speak of karma or reincarnation.
                  I thank you for your trying to explain what you think I don't understand.  I wrote a simple statement.  If I had intended on a long drawn out explanation I would have written a Hub to describe it.  Of course, being "born again" is having your spirit man renewed.   Your flesh body is what it is and we will not need them much longer as we will recieve our Glorified bodies soon.

                  1. recommend1 profile image70
                    recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Now if you had stayed the course at college and not failed you would be able to think more coherently, more able to employ reason and would not then be forced to rely on what others tell you to think.

      2. lone77star profile image91
        lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Naomi, you re-defined "born again" as "to die to sin and renew our lives to eternal life accepting Jesus Christ." All well and good, but you're not really defining the terms. You are merely repeating dogma. The dogma may be right, but if your interpretation of it is wrong, then you will be saying one thing, but doing another. Understanding is critical.

        But what do you mean "new creature in Christ?" Born again has nothing to do with physical creatures! Spirit is not Homo sapiens. In fact, I seriously doubt that Homo sapiens will be needed much longer. In a few thousand years, it will remain a forgotten species. Where we would like to go, there is no need of such things.

        The child of God is not Homo sapiens, because God is not Homo sapiens. Remember Genesis 1:26? The image of the Father is that of a non-physical, spiritual and immortal source of creation. That makes each of us (the inner, sleeping soul) inherently non-physical, spiritual and immortal sources of creation, for that is the "image" of the Father. If you rebel at what sounds like the idea that we may be "baby gods," then I suggest you look at John 10:34, where the Nazarene teacher answers the accusations of his enemies with "ye are gods." And if they were accusing him of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God, then his reply had nothing to do with the power of mortal judges. This had more to do with the inherent nature of God's children. All children look like their parents. We simply have a dual nature -- sleeping, immortal spirit wrapped in Homo sapiens flesh.

        Born again is reawakening of the spirit, and washing away the poison of the forbidden fruit that we ourselves took so long ago -- not in our current, temporary bodies, but in the spirit of our true selves. Everlasting life is living in the spirit, because, when these bodies die, we will have continuity of consciousness only if our true selves are awake.

        1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
          Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, some of what you say is true.  We are sons of God in His eyes.  By the blood of Jesus whe are adopted.  We are eternal heirs of the promise.  All the flesh will pass away and our spirit man lives forever regardless of where we end up.

          1. couturepopcafe profile image60
            couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            This is where I can agree with you.  Our spirit lives forever.  The death of the flesh is inevitable.  If we die to the negative and lead with a heart of love, we lift the spirit to the higher level, the level from which Jesus taught.  One cannot, however, know this until one knows this.  As metaphor, the Bible hits a home run, out of the park, incomparable.  But it is a metaphor.  We are all part of the same spirit and must learn to love.  There is no way to heaven/love.  Heaven/love is the way.

    2. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Emile, you said, "From everything I've heard, this born again philosophy is considered shaky, from a scriptural standpoint."

      Well, that may be your interpretation. Personally, I find most "born agains" rather shallow in their understanding of its meaning. But scripturally, the idea has a basis throughout the Bible -- from Genesis onward. Gen. 1:26 (created in the image of God), Gen. 3 (the fall of "man" ... and not Homo sapiens; that came later), Gen. 6:3 (My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh), John 10:34 (Ye are gods). When the Nazarene teacher says that we need to deny ourselves in order to gain everlasting life, he was talking about the same thing.

      As children of God, we are inherently immortal spirit -- baby gods -- but sound asleep from the poison of the forbidden fruit which we, individually, took -- ages ago. Being born again of the spirit is to cast off the importance we hold for the body, but especially for the ego. And it is ego that we carry with us from lifetime to lifetime. That is the engine which dishes out karma -- the action-reaction machine which ties us to suffering. Let ego (selfishness) die, and the spirit can awaken.

      Emile, you also said, "...do you consider it right to attempt to announce to the world that no one can have a relationship with God, other than by following your limited understanding of the scriptures?"

      You make a good point here. I suspect that everyone's interpretation is rather inaccurate and limited. That's why such discussions are so valuable (except for the few who have nothing to contribute but cackles and barbs).

      For the most part, I find your contribution intelligent and refreshing. wink

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well, I suppose I should start by saying thank you for the compliment on my contribution to the discussions. I'm afraid you are overly kind.

        And I think you make interesting points. I doubt you and I are far apart on how we perceive we are to work toward our connection to the spiritual.  My only point to Naomi was an attempt to point out that a simplistic statement such as the one she is making, implying broad ramifications for any that don't agree with her; is arrogant. That is simply one of many interpretations (that is itself in dispute within Christianity) and interpretation should not be bandied about as fact. Especially not a fact that would lead one to believe that they are somehow cut off from a deity they believe in simply because they don't agree with the OP.

    3. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      <snipped-promotional link>

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You must be joking. You compare yourself to Wikipedia? I don't know if you noticed, but Wikipedia is open to new information. Constantly corrected to ensure it is truthful. It is a trusted source of information. I hope you see the glaring differences. smile

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          you're funny... the link the snipped was to my hub on nicodemus.  It totally thrashes the opinion stated in your post and it is from a jewish perspective on the situation. Jewish perspectives give us a glimpse into their traditions, ways of life, how they thought and why...

          There is nothing unscriptural about a born-again doctrine. In fact it is quite a beautiful phrase.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There is nothing wrong with the term born again, itself. It is the  manner in which it is interpreted that raises the eyebrow.

            I'll bet you that not one of these wildly evangelical sects can trace its roots back more than a couple of hundred years. I'll go on to bet you that most of your sects were started by charismatic preachers with absolutely no formal education in theology .

            There is absolutely no reason to assume that any of your sects are correct in their interpretations. You all ignore almost two thousand years of theological study and reflection; a lifetime of secular discoveries and refuse to admit to evidence available from simple observation skills. I can think of no reason to take anything any evangelical says with more than a grain of salt.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              have a nice day then

            2. sonfollowers profile image91
              sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Emile,

              This would be an interesting argument if all Christians since the start of the evangelical "sects" simply blindly followed the ground work laid ahead of them and did no research of their own.  Granted that many Christians do blindly follow and this is unfortunate.  But I personally do a lot of research and study and I don't simply follow whatever my parents taught me or what I heard in "Vacation Bible School" when I was six.  Seminaries teach people Greek and Hebrew so that they can go back to the original texts and decipher for themselves.  We have thousands of copies of ancient texts from which our current Bible was translated into English.  Scholars do their own research, their own study, and decide for themselves what they believe.  There are so many different Christian denominations specifically because we don't simply follow like sheep.

              About evidence, I personally don't ignore secular discoveries.  I simply haven't seen any secular discoveries that have shaken my faith.  At the same time, secularists make wild assumptions and giant leaps about things they see and tell the rest of the world that something has been proven that really hasn't.  It happens all the time.  There is a balance.  I've said before that Christianity co-exists with science.  No scientific discovery has ever invalidated the message of the Bible.  It may invalidate the message of some Christians, but those messages needed to be invalidated anyway.  To assume that disproving something a Christian said is in fact defacto disproving the Bible itself is an error.  Many have attempted to disprove the claims of the Bible.  It simply hasn't been done.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I haven't seen any evidence within the posts I have read from you that indicate you turn a blind eye to fact. You believe in God. Nothing wrong with that.

                However, if you believe you are conversing with God and only you know the answers because......well, you are talking to God; I might post back and forth with you in a similar manner as I do with those who give the impression they consider themselves to be some type of prophet.

                Study is grand, however it has to be kept in context. No one speaks for God. It is theory and interpretation. Nothing more.

    4. sonfollowers profile image91
      sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't really agree with this assessment.  John's gospel in particular had a very different mindset that the other gospels.  Each of the four gospels had a specific purpose.  Matthew, Mark, and Luke were very much focused on the events themselves.  Jesus went here, he fed those people, he crossed the lake on foot, etc.  Luke was much more detailed in his account.  Matthew cited a lot more Old Testament prophecies because he was writing to show that Jesus was in fact the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies.  John included much more doctrinal and theological information in his gospel and he was much more focused on the teachings and words of Jesus than he was on the activities of Jesus.  That's just what was important to him.  Just because no one else wrote about these things does not in any way invalidate the content.  If you, me, and brotheryochanan all lived through and conducted interviews about the World Trade Center disaster on 9/11 and then each of us wrote about what we experienced and heard, the content of our writings would be very different.  You would include details I would not, etc.  This is not a crisis and has no negative impact on the validity of the writings.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I believe you are ignoring a primary point in that entire quote. That is the language that was spoken at the time of Christ and the language that the gospels were written in.  The statement would not have left room for confusion if spoken in Aramaic. It appears that this fact has caused scholars to question the authenticity of the dialogue.

        To a literalist, that wants to take every word as gospel; I’m sure this wouldn’t seem to be an oddity, or cause for concern. To a purist, simply attempting to find the truth of the source within the text; I can understand why there are problems with something that doesn't sound authentic.

        I don’t see anything wrong with the interpretation and I would be inclined to agree with that take on it. And, I wouldn’t argue that you, I and anyone else would record an event from different perspectives. But I would not take one small note from a recorded event (a point that is in dispute within the body of the faith I professed) and build a doctrine around it; and then run about insinuating that anyone who does not agree is cut off from God. 

        I think it is haughty, arrogant and dangerous. I’m surprised that any would argue that point.

        1. sonfollowers profile image91
          sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, I did see that but it wasn't as interesting to me as other things I read.

          "Bart D. Ehrman says that this confusion is because in Greek (the language of the gospel) the word again is ambiguous. It might mean again or a second time or from above"

          This is what I don't get.  Honestly I could go along with any of the translations he's listing ("born again", "born a second time", "born from above").  They all work and mean essentially what I have always understood the phrase "born again" to mean.  So even though it was written in greek and even though one of the words may be slightly ambiguous, the ambiguity does not affect the actual interpretation of the passage.  This is why I skimmed over it.  It doesn't seem to be a big deal.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Of course you would skim over the points that don't line up with your personal take. I see you told another Christian;

            To make sense of Jesus' message, you have to take all of it together rather than bits and pieces. Really, if you want to do it piece by piece then you aren't a follower of who Jesus actually was. Instead you're a follower of the Jesus you've made up for yourself. It's cool with me if you want to do that. More power to you. But in that case I would not label you a Christian. That's my opinion.

            I know you don't understand, but that's across the board. Every one pieces together the points they agree with. Christian and non Christian alike. One thing I consider to be non Christian is Christians telling others they aren't. How very unscriptural. imo.

            1. sonfollowers profile image91
              sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I do understand, actually.  I just don't think I was doing that in this case.   The point I was trying to make is that the three different interpretations don't change the meaning if the passage in any significant way.  They can be used interchangeably.  I use "born again" because I like the phrase (and also because its more common and recognizable).  If I ran around saying "born from above" instead, most people wouldn't know what I was referring to. 

              As for my other comment you referenced, the requirement for being a Christian (part of the church or the gathering) according to numerous places in the scripture is to repent and believe in the resurrection of Christ.  To respect and appreciate His teachings is not the same thing.  I know what I said is not "politically correct."  I just prefer to use words in context of their historical definitions.  I can't dictate to anyone else how they classify themselves.  I certainly agree on that point.  I was just pointing out the historical context of the label. 

              For the record, I think it's confusing when a non-believer claims to be a Christian.   It muddies the water.  It's like Rachel Maddow claiming to be a member of the Tea Party and then running around doing speeches under the Tea Party umbrella.  It blurs the message.  What would everyone say?  "There's dissension in the ranks of the Tea Party!"  Clear lines are good sometimes to help simplify conversations.  The truth is that there's always "dissension in the ranks" of any movement because not everyone will agree on everything.  But when a Christian says there is no God, at that point I can safely say that the vast majority of the church would not agree with them on much of anything.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I find it increasingly fascinating that everyone who claims to have a 'personal' relationship feels not only authorized, but obligated, to dictate terms on how others are to achieve their own 'personal' relationship.

                There's no heavenly version of Walmart. Spirituality is not mass manufactured.

                Perhaps it would be more effective if you identified yourself as Baptist or Pentecostal, or whatever sect is guiding your practice of exclusion. I think your posts are muddying the waters more than Melissa's. She actually gives the impression that there might be a degree of spiritual truth within that faith.

                1. sonfollowers profile image91
                  sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That's fine.  I understand that, from an agnostic's perspective, blurry is more comfortable.  Like I said, I tend to go with the traditional and historical definitions of things.

                  You are confused on one point though.  I'm not dictating how another person tries to grow spiritually.  Whatever they choose to do is up to them.  I can't and wouldn't force another person to do something they don't agree with.  I was simply talking about the definition of a word which has historically meant something specific and which others are trying to make it mean something more general.  I don't want to wake up to a world where every word which has historical significance to the church will be secularized and blurred beyond recognition.   The name "Christ" will be adopted by the secular world to mean leader or speaker, "Bible" will be truly synonymous with rulebook, "resurrected" will be what we all do when we wake up in the morning...   While the world honors other religions, it seeks desperately to marginalize and poke fun at mainstream Christianity.  Plenty of examples of that here on this forum.  It's almost a guarantee that these same people wouldn't think of doing that to a muslim.  Freedom of speech is fine as long as it's not a Christian exercising it.  There is a severe double standard in secular culture.  So while you think I'm the bad guy for wanting to maintain historical integrity of words that are important to the church, you don't seem to notice the other people on this forum who are blatantly disrespectful and condescending.  Why is that?  Any thoughts?

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    nobody read my hub on nicodemus... that is a shame.

                  2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I respect your viewpoint.  However, my faith-which as a whole fundamentals call unchristian- has roots as far back as any other denomination.  As a matter of fact, it predates any established baptist church as well as most other denominations arising from Calvinism (which is most of the non-catholic faiths)

                    As my religion, which is most certainly classified as christian, (Unless you want to claim that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams etc... weren't Christians)has likely been around longer than yours... wouldn't it be your religion that was seeking to change the image of Christianity?

                  3. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    One thing I enjoy about your posts is when you say 'That's fine.' I'm not asking approval or permission to have an opinion.

                    And, historical integrity?  You must be joking.  Unless, of course, you are Catholic.  At which juncture I would think you might have a valid point.

                    What the evangelical faiths are doing, in my opinion, is searching out bones of contention; in order to think that they, alone, have a beeline on this guy god.  You can pander all day about how you think the whole thing should be viewed, but as long as you do you are not staying in line with the historical nature of Christianity.  That died somewhere between Luther and Calvin. It has further been flayed by the progression of ever newer sects that have developed with each new bone of contention.

                    As to your comments about people railing against Christianity; but oddly silent on Islam.  I agree.  I think that many take out their fears and frustrations on Christianity because they are afraid of offending Islam. But, I’m not one of those.

                    You appear to have a mouse in your pocket named Church. Because I doubt you speak for the Christian faith, I doubt you speak for your entire sect and I doubt you speak for your congregation. I don’t know whether you realize this, or not, but it is the Christians themselves that bring on the criticism of Christianity; simply by doing what you have done here.

                    You espouse your views as if they are the views held by all of Christendom. So, if one disagrees with you and then doesn’t take the time to account for ego and error; one would assume that your views are the views of several other billion people. To disagree with them would mean that  all of Christianity is suspect.

                    You, I and everyone else has freedom of speech.  The difference is that if you disagree with me, you disagree with me.  If I disagree with you, every Christian on this site takes it personally.

                    Edit.  I know Melissa Barrett doesn't take it personally.  There are many others.  I should have said every Evangelical Christian takes it personally.

      2. Zabbella profile image76
        Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Excellent!  The Apostles  were different men with different writing styles.

        1. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Then why is there hand-writing evidence that more than one gospel was written by the same person? Hmmm.... hmm

          1. sonfollowers profile image91
            sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I haven't seen anything that corroborates this claim.  What is your source for this information?  Do you have a link from a reputable source?

            1. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I'm sure you've not looked either.
              Over 10 years of open-minded research.
              You asking for a reputable source is funny. Like you would change your belief, if I gave you. Btw- what is reputable to you? Might not be reputable to someone else? So, what's the sense? So, go look for yourself. I did.

              1. sonfollowers profile image91
                sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                In other words, you have nothing.  When you make claims, it would be good if you could come to the table with a source.  It does wonders for your credibility.  I'm happy to read what you present and see what it says.  if you come up with something let me know.  Thanks.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  he has nothing

                  1. Cagsil profile image72
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't have nothing. I have my research. It's YOU that have nothing, because you obviously refuse anything that doesn't jive with your belief. Again, good show.

                2. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Actually, you would be incorrect. But, then again, like I said, you've not looked either.
                  I am the source, or did you not notice that. Just because you don't find me as an acceptable source, is your problem. You want confirmation, go do the research.
                  You defending your belief without effort to research, shows how little you understand your own life. Good for you......you must be so proud of yourself. roll

                  1. sonfollowers profile image91
                    sonfollowersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok, here's how this works:  If you make a claim, it's your responsibility to provide evidence of your claim.  It's simple and clean.  And no, your words are not evidence of anything.  It doesn't need to be a big deal.  I shouldn't have to search the internet looking for supporting documentation for a claim that you made. 

                    "you obviously refuse anything that doesn't jive with your belief"

                    Why would I integrate your statement into my belief system when you come with nothing to back you up?  It makes no sense.  Do you accept things that don't "jive with your belief"?  Not based on evidence here in this forum.  Pot... meet kettle.

  5. 61
    robertm12posted 5 years ago

    Has anyone else noticed that the bible is like a service manual? God made everything in the first few pages. The rest of the book gives all the troublshooting tips that were used by god to try and fix the whole big mess.

    1. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's a rather simplistic and shallow interpretation. I think it's good to try looking at things from various viewpoints. Even trying out some seemingly sacrilegious ideas.

      But your "argument" adds nothing to understanding. Care to try again?

      There are many secrets hidden in the Bible, but it takes humility and interest to find them.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Bible and Secrets in the same sentence? WOW! Now, you're stretching. lol

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Everything you know is a secret to everybody else.
          lol

          1. Cagsil profile image72
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            BO, do yourself a favor, pick on someone you can handle. lol

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I wonder who that could be? smile The record ain't good! lol

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                lol
                stop lyin

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              true statement or a false statement
              everything you know is a secret to everyone else?
              got an answer?

              1. Cagsil profile image72
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It's a false statement coming from you.
                Everything I know isn't a secret to everyone else and to say that it is, is foolish. Like I said before, pick on someone you can handle.

                You're certainly not honest enough to handle me or what I have to say on almost anything. You've proven that from previous conversations. You like to twist things, just like a few others on these forums.

                I'm done playing with you. You actually bring nothing to the table.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You certainly don't bring anything either:
                  you said:
                                              -begin quotes-
                  "Using metaphors without understanding them I see. What else is new for the religious folks".

                  "Righteous? Oh, so you're above others. Good to know you speak so highly of your self. Maybe you should check on your ego sometime."
                  (lol kettle black is it?)

                  "Always funny to see the religious quoting scripture without truly understanding or knowing the metaphors used within it."
                  (stay tuned for more secrets by cagsil)

                  "Unfortunately, experiences for humans are the same, however, perceptions are not always the same, which is the difference. You may attribute specific things, as being holy or part of divinity, but apparently it comes from not knowing any better".

                  "Try believing in yourself and guiding your life. Right now, the only thing you are doing is perpetuating the hoax of religion and showing you don't actually understand your life".

                  "Again, I've said it before. You don't know what you're talking about, unless you've managed to learn each metaphor Jesus used in his parables. And, if you had, then you wouldn't actually believe in a god, but would be a master of your life".
                  (Jesus attributed everything in his life to the God, i'd love to hear your workaround for this)

                  "Jesus said- you won't know any better because of religion".
                  Actually he said,
                  Matthew 16:12   Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
                  He was talking about the pharisees,  the bread is the word of God.
                  Gods way = good
                  pharisees way = bad
                  understand now?
                  typical of all your interpretations... sloppy and ego based.
                  He never ever said that ALL religion was bad, but the pharisees were bad. (oooh your such the force to contend with)

                  "I hold very few beliefs. I've learned and am of the understanding that beliefs are not to be solidified, because change is inevitable".
                  "I don't spread beliefs I do hold, unless you're a close friend or a relative".
                  lol roughly translated.... Every time i mention my views i end up in a room by myself. lol

                  "Actually, maybe you should look in the mirror"?  (mines shows so much ego i can't actually fit both my ears in the frame, hahaha)

                  "Hey -----, not even you are "holy spirit filled" and as for anyone else on this planet, neither are they. Their (including you) actions alone speaks volumes. As for speaking truth? Apparently, lying to themselves is acceptable, so they don't know the difference when they are lying to others".
                  (yah like you know about the holy spirit)
                                                              -end quotes-
                  This is truly nothing lol just your opinion based on your ego

                  1. Cagsil profile image72
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Again, twisting things. Skewed perception seeing things that which don't exist. You must be really proud of you. And, as for the secrets to the metaphors used, even your interpretation is skewed, due to your perception. There's no secrets about the metaphors, any person with enough initiative can learn them. The biggest problem is learning them will actually force people to check their ego and their beliefs at the door.

                    And, as for my ego? It's been in check for years, unlike you. Btw- I don't perpetuate the hoax like you do, so who exactly is being honest with others? Obviously you're not.

      2. 61
        robertm12posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You assume i don't know the bible but let me assure you that k know it very well. That my friend is why i posted my "argument." In the beginning all was created. The remainder is a long drawn out story of failed attempts to rid the world of evil. God killed any and everyone to try to get the job done. However, each attempt was a temporary fix and before long, a new city popped up and needed to be destroyed. Why couldn't god make a plan that wasn't going to be filled with evil? How do you know satan won't somehow get into heaven and screw it up too? Instead of a serpant he may enter as a television preacher. Who knows???

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Robert, there are some people who have read the Bible their entire lives and still don't understand it. So, when you say that you "know" the Bible, after your comments, I'm not impressed with the lie and self-deception.

      3. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lone77star - I understand your perspective on robertm12's rather brief and witty 'troubleshooting manual' comment.  Let me say this:  some people can be very succinct in just a few words.  We all communicate in different ways.

        I actually rather agree with his definition.  I believe the Bible is a manual, a guidebook, on how to live.  How to live a good life, one which is led by the love exemplified by the character of Jesus.  It's been said that 'it is easy to be a holy man living on top of a mountain'.  Not so easy down here in the real world.  Many need that guidebook, until such time as they don't need it anymore and can live by instinct alone.

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks, couturepopcafe. "Manual" I get and agree with, but his "The rest of the book gives all the troublshooting tips that were used by god to try and fix the whole big mess," seems a bit thin on logic and respect.

          Satan cannot get into heaven, contrary to Robertm12's suggestion that it might happen. That "source" of everything evil might be none other than our own egos. And ego is a physical construct -- pseudo self -- and vulnerable because it includes some of the same stuff that the rest of creation contains -- things like time and energy. These won't fit in heaven, because heaven doesn't consist of these worldly things. Ego will not fit through the gate, because it is too "fat" with physicality.

          That's why we need to shed our egos in order to get there. Ego is the self we need to deny.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I like it

  6. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 5 years ago

    Very nice, Naomi. Now, what does "born again" mean? Doesn't it help to understand things more completely?

    Faith is transcendent. It is far superior to mortal "belief." But how do you get to "faith?"

    If you believe in something, but that belief is wrong, how do you ever know?

    The answer is humility in the search for Truth. If you think you "know it all" already, then you only trip yourself up. Don't stop looking for answers.

    Yes, you found Jesus. That's the first big step. Now, keep searching. There really is more to find. And with those discoveries, you can be a far better witness.

    1. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Really? And, how did YOU come to that conclusion, when the rest of the common sense world says that faith is no better than belief? roll

      1. lone77star profile image91
        lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "The rest of the common sense world" according to the great and all-seeing Cags?

        You make me laugh. But I suppose I shouldn't be so unkind to someone who cannot see. (Hint: not talking about your Homo sapiens body.)

        1. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No, you're actually attempting to make a reference to "spirituality", which is completely based on mysticism. And, mysticism decades ago was debunked as an individual being dishonest.

          Thank you for showing off your true colors.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There is one spirit and that is of God.
            Mysticism was debunked because it is not of the spirit of God.

            Thats no great secret but one has to make the distinction for their to be greater accuracy in the statement.

            close though

            1. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What a joke.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                not like your jokes
                mine holds accuracy

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Ya know you really shouldn't just come out and say things without some sort of proof.
                Otherwise your just spoutin.
                In school if you handed in a thesis with
                this assignment is a joke
                you would have failed
                so i will have to give you an F on your 3 word answer.
                wouldn't want you gettin in a corporate knot.

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  roll

    2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I hope I haven't come off sounding like a know it all.  I am simply learning just like the rest of you.

      1. heavenbound5511 profile image79
        heavenbound5511posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

        Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

        And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

        Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

        The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

        And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.> Matt 11

        1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

        2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones...

        25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

        26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

        27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

        28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

        29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

        30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

        31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

        32Remember Lot's wife.

        33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.> Luke 17

    3. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  You get to faith by reading and speakiing out the Word.  When you act on the word you are acting out your faith.

  7. aguasilver profile image88
    aguasilverposted 5 years ago

    Being 'born again' requires someone to first die, something which seems to be forgotten in most cases.

    It is not a form of words, it is not always an instant event, in fact it rarely would be an instant event.

    It would probably be more relevant to state that the 'cross over' from alive in the world but dead in the spirit of unbelief, to dead to the world but alive in the spirit of belief, takes time, it's a 'walk of faith'.

    As in life, with birth, there is a point of conception for the new life, and a period of gestation before the created starts their walk towards eternity.

    As in death though, the 'death' of the new born believer is instant, but unlike physical death, that believer will probably give credence to the 'ghosts' of the old ego that loiters in memory, as their new born spirit gains power and strength.

    All this time the world will attempt to destroy the small faith held by the new born spirit with ridicule and attack, as seen in these forums, for those attacking, have fun, your attacks are futile, faith can rarely be shaken, for those of belief, stay strong and focus on the goal, coming to the fullness of Christ.

    John

    1. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol You're always a good laugh John.

      1. aguasilver profile image88
        aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Glad to be of service Cagsil! cool

        1. couturepopcafe profile image60
          couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          aguasilver - you have a good understanding of faith.  The fullness of Christ is love, right?

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The fullness of Christ is the total overcoming of the enemy allowing freedom from the worlds 'rule' and control over the negative elements who would keep folk down.

            When Christ walked into the sinners den, they (the sinners) would have felt His authority over the spirits that worked in them, and His Holy Spirit would have assumed authority over the place.

            It's like when the alpha male or female walks into the room (mini example) and everyone knows that this has happened and although nothing is said, all are conscious that 'the man' (or 'the woman')has arrived.

            True authority over circumstances does not require force or belligerence to control the spiritual atmosphere.

            Of course the nearer someone gets to the fullness of Christ, the less they fall to the temptation to exercise that authority over ordinary folk, and only use it to quell negative spirits and people.

            Christ was the first and ONLY 'anointed one' who defeated the power of the enemy, first speaks for itself, only, because having defeated the enemy, no further conquest was called for, the enemy was defeated and stays defeated.

            We need to assume that authority, extended over us as an inheritance, and use it to subdue those who try to negate Christ's authority, therefore releasing the 'captives' who believe the lies the enemy puts out.

            1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I like your style aquasilver.  Thanks for contributing to my forum post.

            2. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Pure conjecture. You wouldn't have a clue what they actually felt when they spoke with Jesus. But, nice try.

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Don't imagine it would be less than what happens when a Holy Spirit filled person walks into a sinners den today, and I can know what the cause and effect of a superior power over an inferior power will be, now, then or in the future....

                But I like you anyway! smile

                1. Evolution Guy profile image60
                  Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Your delusions of grandeur are getting funnier and funnier. Superior power? lol lol lol

                  Little wonder you people cause so many conflicts. sad  Disgusting how arrogant and proud of yourself you are. I thought that was a sin? Guess the rules don't apply to you.

                  11th Commandment: "Do as I say, not as I do."

                  1. lone77star profile image91
                    lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    And you're not being arrogant, E.G.?

                    How do you know John is not merely displaying "humble confidence." That's quite different from arrogance, but they look quite alike.

                2. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I've enjoyed a few of your insights over the months, but I think EG hit the nail on the head when he critiqued this post.

                  Walked on any water recently, have you?

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Mark will always misinterpret, which is OK, and understood.

                    "Don't imagine it would be less than what happens when a Holy Spirit filled person walks into a sinners den today, and I can know what the cause and effect of a superior power over an inferior power will be, now, then or in the future...."

                    Where did I mention ME?

                    For the record I have witnessed and experienced this occurring, but do not expect others who have not, to understand or wish to understand that Gods Holy Spirit is ALL powerful and subordinates all opposing spirits.

                    Sorry if that makes you irate or increases your scepticism, but as any Holy Spirit filled believer will tell you, it's simply a fact.

                    As to the use of the word 'superior', it is merely expressing the difference between a cruise missile and a bow and arrow.

                    Clearly the cruise missile is superior to the bow and arrow.

                    Step outside of prejudice and consider what is stated.

                  2. lone77star profile image91
                    lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I too have enjoyed insights from you, Emile, but you're standards of logic are not perfect.

                    E.G. doesn't know the difference between arrogance and humble confidence. And he is coming from a highly prejudiced position (I once told him I believe in evolution, and he called me a "liar," rather than ask how it might be possible). Arrogance and humble confidence do look a lot alike and people who are full of ego find it impossible to tell the difference.

                    "Walked on any water recently, have you?" I have a feeling that you would look upon any such miracle as fakery and dismiss it entirely -- explaining it away with lame logic. Is there a touch of contempt in your question? I tell you of a very real miracle, but now feel bad for casting pearls before swine. Pigs don't understand the value of pearls, especially pearls of wisdom.

    2. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Outstanding, John. Well put. I've never heard any Christian put it quite like that. Refreshing perspective.

      I think I'm still dying a slow death. I keep picking off the fleas of that earthly disease. Still crawling, spiritually. But I'm patient (and yet impatient, too). Enjoying the growth, but longing for the wings.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Let me get this straight, you're looking forward to death and to leave this world because of your religious beliefs?

        1. couturepopcafe profile image60
          couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Troubled - I believe the 'death' referred to in Christianity is a death of the negative spirit, the spirit of what they call 'unrighteousness'.  It has nothing to do with death of the flesh.  An understanding of positivity which can only come from a spirit of love, which releases the tendency to 'sin' (make really bad decisions) will bring one into the state which the Christians call 'saved'.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you very much. smile

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Congratulations couturepopcafe you just invented Christianity without Christ, should be very popular with folk!

              1. Cagsil profile image72
                Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                lol lol

        2. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wow, TroubledMan. Sorry you got so confused.

          There is a big difference between death of ego and death of the temporary Homo sapiens body. Ego is permanent unless we actively do something about it. Death of the body is inevitable. And, for the time being, we can always pick up another one.

          Perhaps you were not paying attention. Ego is the self we must deny.

          Longing for physical death is tantamount to suicide and that is perhaps the most egotistical thing anyone could ever do -- entirely selfish.

          But we must not be too attached to this physical existence, either. Physical death will come of its own accord and in its own time.

          While we have this life, we must honor and respect it for it is a precious gift.

  8. Jefacity profile image59
    Jefacityposted 5 years ago

    Jesus is my homeboy. Props!

  9. andrewwilliams63 profile image60
    andrewwilliams63posted 5 years ago

    Why do people just blindly believe what's written in their bibles?

    Dont people realise that half of it is missing and what you're reading in your bibles is hardly the complete truth, more like what a bunch of religious folks decided you should believe. Many original and contradictory items were removed and the early christians even doubted the divinity of christ and the nature of the realtionship between jesus and god

    Have a look at the first council of Nicea for example.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

    1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's what faith us believing in things not yet seen. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

      1. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You're ok in my book, Naomi.

        1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
          Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks

  10. Jerami profile image80
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    getitrite, ...   If you were a fish in farmer Jones' pond, a fish out in the ocean which is larger than you (such as a shark) could be only a figmant of your imagionation,  ...  until it eats you.

    1. getitrite profile image82
      getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What a feeble attempt at "wisdom" Jerami!

      Please work on that, because it is on a subordinate level as to what I perceive REAL wisdom to be.

      And knowing your worldview, it is obvious that you are only attempting to correct me, because of my straightforward scrutiny of your foolish beliefs...and my unwillingness to accept and respect your willful ignorance as a rational choice.

      But DO try to go a little deeper...

      1. Jerami profile image80
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You know my world view?  Do You?

          If we can not understand life in it's simplicity, do we realy understand the intricate?

        1. couturepopcafe profile image60
          couturepopcafeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Touche, Jerami.

  11. Jerami profile image80
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    getitrite
      I'm sorry but I gotta go lay down for a while ...  my body is hurting.

       and I have a few things to do before I go to my Sons house for BBQ later.


       SOooo    LATER

  12. lovelypaper profile image68
    lovelypaperposted 5 years ago

    It's amazing how one's statement of faith can fire up so much emotional response! I agree, Jesus saves and no one can come to the Father except through Him. No one else died for sinners but Jesus and He deserves all the praise and glory! Bring on the hate.....

    1. 62
      joaquin0306posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I completely agree..., Jesus is the ONLY way, the truth and the life. I don't care what other people will say.. Putting Christ in our heart and admitting that we need Him for our salvation doesn't require any rocket science explanation or methodology, crap all those... Even science cannot explain the existence of universe and entire galaxy... Believing God is purely about having FAITH on something that is unseen but believing they exist it's like our human faith of believing there is oxygen on the air that we breathe every they yet no one had ever seen oxygen and yet scientist confirmed its existence... Lastly, in the future on our death bed when our life is about to end I want you people to think of 1 question, "Where will u spend your eternity, Heaven or Hell?" .. Salvation is given by God by His grace through our faith in Christ Jesus who served as an ultimate sacrifice for mankind to be saved....

  13. skyfire profile image71
    skyfireposted 5 years ago

    Ironically that guy failed to save his own *ahem*. I would rather follow someone who knows how to save his own *ahem* first, than a guy who talks goody-goody fantasy stories and at the end claims he died for me and others , when in fact he was weakling who failed to save his own *ahem* ya know. wink

    1. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Think you missed part of the account, know you missed meeting with Him, try to save your own *ahem* before you criticise Christ. smile

      1. skyfire profile image71
        skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh don't worry about my *ahem*, ask that guy to be more powerful next time before he gets kicked his *ahem* by mere mortals and hope that likes of you don't defend him in delusion for the sake of religion.

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Skyfire, you got it all upside down. It was no accident that Jesus found himself on the cross. That was his mission. He mentioned that several times before he went to Jerusalem to fulfill that goal. This wasn't someone else doing something to him against his will. This was him purposefully placing himself in harm's way to inspire us to give up our most prized possession. That makes him a hero, not a victim.

          The real delusion is thinking that you are merely and only a Homo sapiens body. That's funny and sad all at the same time. But the Homo sapiens body is not the most prized possession. Ego is.

          The lesson was one of humility and forgoing attachment -- especially attachments to this physical reality.

          The lesson was one of helping us take off the rather formidable and yet invisible mask that we wear -- that of ego. This is the self we must deny, but you are clinging to it. The death on the cross was the level of commitment our spiritual brother had for our spiritual reawakening. Once that's done, we no longer need these temporary, but beautiful bodies.

    2. lovelypaper profile image68
      lovelypaperposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus could have saved himself but He CHOSE NOT TO FOR YOU ! If you were the only sinner on earth, He would have died for you alone. He could have called the angels to his aid during his crucifixion to make himself more comfortable and he could have just gotten down from the cross, but if he did, you and I and everyone that has ever existed would be in Hell. So thank that man called Jesus for WILLINGLY suffering and dying for you.

      1. Titen-Sxull profile image94
        Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        1) It's not dying when you're a supernatural being and spring back to life 3 days later. Jesus gave nothing up, he sacrificed nothing.

        2) Jesus is saving us from HELL right? A Hell that he and his Father created, own and operate.

        3) Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive people? I can forgive people just fine without finding a group of Romans to nail me to a bit of wood. If the answer has something to do with sin needing a "sacrificial lamb" than may I ask why you serve a barbaric god that demands blood be spilled in order to forgive your petty transgressions?

        1. lovelypaper profile image68
          lovelypaperposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ok, 1)  Jesus was fully man when He was crucified. He felt real pain. He was spat upon and suffered unspeakable torture.  2) Yes, God created Hell for the fallen angels that followed Lucifer. Hell was never created for us. 3) Jesus took our place. We as sinners deserve death and Hell but Jesus was the only perfect, sinless person that could have been that sacrifice for us.   God is so holy and perfect that our "goodness" is like filthy rags to Him.  Since you have so many questions, why don't you ask Him? I'm sure He doesn't mind your sarcasm and skeptism, He longs to talk to you and have a relationship with you. Ask Him. It's all in the Bible too. If you don't understand it, He will give you understanding.

          1. Evolution Guy profile image60
            Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hmmm. Is He as condescending as you are?

          2. Titen-Sxull profile image94
            Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            1) The question was never whether he felt pain, the question was whether he actually sacrificed anything. Given that he returned to life in the same body 3 days later nothing was permanently sacrificed.

            2) If we were not meant to go to Hell why would God decide to send us there?

            3) Explain to me how it is possible to DESERVE an eternity of punishment. As for asking Jesus, I was raised as a Christian and spent many a night crying out for answers, never got any despite my sincerity. Seeking my own answers led me to reject Christianity when reading the Bible in its entirety caused it to fall apart under the slightest application of logic, skepticism and moral fortitude.

            1. lone77star profile image91
              lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Who says he returned in the same body. There were many who could not see him. The body means little except as a tool to aid in our reawakening as spiritual beings. Like a driver who has taken a long drive, they eventually get out of their car. The question is whether or not they will be awake when they get out of their used-up bodies.

              Yes, Jesus sacrificed a very real and tangible body. The lesson was one of inspiring us to give up our most prized possession -- ego. When we give up ego, we are sacrificing the life of this world for the more permanent life of the spirit.

              God does not decide on hell; that is our own individual decision. You make your decision and God only gives you want you ask for. Kinda nice that way. A real bummer for those who choose poorly. I feel for the poor souls. If I make it to the decision for heaven (and that's still a work in progress), I might petition God for me to go help those in hell.

              Deserve? Like I said, if someone decides not to take heaven, they get what's left. I get the impression that the mission to save these spiritual children of God is not an infinite (open ended) mission. Once the troops have gone, there will be no one left to protect the bright and shining integrity of civilization. All will likely fall into the "logic" of victim-perpetrator -- what is biblically referred to as "wailing and gnashing" (blood feuds).

              As for your "sincere" asking, perhaps it was not sincere enough. If you held an "I dare you" attitude or anything similar while you asked, then you really loused it up. You cannot "wish" or "want" an answer, for that will only give you a lack of an answer; i.e. you would be creating only "want" or "lack."

              Shallow logic, lack of imagination and the bias of doubt found in skepticism are not a good foundation upon which to make decisions.

              1. Titen-Sxull profile image94
                Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "Who says he returned in the same body."

                The Bible does. In the story Thomas actually puts his hands in the wounds that Christ sustains on the Cross AND the body is missing when they go to the tomb. This means it is intended as a bodily resurrection of Christ's original body.

                "The body means little except as a tool to aid in our reawakening as spiritual beings."

                There is no evidence that a human being, or any other animal, can survive without a body, or at the very least a brain. Several centuries of science have shown us how important the brain is to who and what we are and no evidence has been found of a spirit.

                "The question is whether or not they will be awake when they get out of their used-up bodies."

                This analogy could work if you were talking about the brain, but what you're talking about is a spirit, something completely unproven and borderline debunked by modern science.

                "Yes, Jesus sacrificed a very real and tangible body."

                No he didn't, because the same body came back to life, so it's not a sacrifice.

                "that is our own individual decision."

                The Bible disagrees with you. Even Jesus says that God is the judge. He instructs his disciples not to fear those that can harm the body but to fear God because God can throw them BODY AND SOUL into Hell. In one instance depicting Judgement Jesus suggests that those who feed the poor and help their fellow man will be told to enter into heaven as faithful servants while those who did not will be TOLD to depart into everlasting fire.

                Furthermore the Bible repeatedly describes God as both a King and a Judge and Revelation only drives it home that God sends people to Hell. So what you're saying is not scriptural, its apologetic nonsense.

                "they get what's left."

                Why would the only options be eternal agony and eternal paradise? Does God not see that murderers and someone who, let's say, follows Islam instead of Christianity, do not deserve the SAME fate? Not to mention the fact that according to the Bible Heaven and Hell are not a human choice as I showed above.

                "perhaps it was not sincere enough."

                Or perhaps no one was listening. And trust me, when every time you can't locate your loved ones you feel a deep fear that you've been left behind by the rapture to suffer through tribulation you go to bed at night offering sincere prayers asking for help. I also fail to see why Jesus cares about sincerity or doubt, he didn't care when Thomas doubted.

                "Shallow logic, lack of imagination and the bias of doubt found in skepticism are not a good foundation upon which to make decisions."

                Logic and skepticism are two of the greatest tools to discovering truth. I'm curious as to what the hell "shallow" logic is. Pretty sure logic is logic. AS for doubt, I've said it before this way, The journey to the truth BEGINS with doubt. If something you believe can withstand doubt and skepticism than there's a greater chance of it being true but you have to be willing to follow those doubts and admit to yourself your could be wrong.

      2. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's what you've been taught to believe. It doesn't make it true. lol

      3. skyfire profile image71
        skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        1) Get real. No one from this forum were alive or born during that time. That "saves you" stuff doesn't apply to anyone of us.
        2) You call him lord on one side and he choose not to help himself. Those who don't value their own life with excuse of saving life of others in deluded way with some mumbo jumbo story - are  weakling thinking they're doing this for some cause. That's lame.
        3) He being son of gawd or lord himself needs help from angels ? Awesome.
        4) considering 2) and 3) you call that guy savior, have fun in your delusion.
        5) I was not there to witness same applies to you, his death has nothing to do with saving my life.
        6) Save from whom, fellow mortal humans. He failed miserably saving his own life. Get real.
        7) Keep that saving soul and "just for you" to yourself and similar deluded like yours.

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Skyfire:

          (1) No "one" was alive then? Perhaps you mean "no body." We were all around in the spirit at that time, whether or not we had a different body. And oh yes, that "save you" stuff applies to you, too. You either choose heaven or take what's left over, but the choice is yours.

          (2) The cross was his mission, planned long in advance. He forced their hand, eliciting their ire all to inspire us with his sacrifice. His was a heroic action. He was no victim (for more, see my hub on "Was Jesus a Victim?").

          (3) Isn't teamwork wonderful?

          (4) Ah, but you will suffer in your delusion. These temporary Homo sapiens bodies aren't exactly invulnerable, but spirit is. And your immortal true self without the bright and shining civilization and possibly without Homo sapiens bodies will suffer a great deal. And that will be an eternity if no one comes to rescue your incorrigible *ahem*.

          (5) Okay, you might have a blazing misunderstood, here. Saving your body, yes I agree, has nothing to do with it. Saving your immortal true self, well that's the whole reason for these Homo sapiens bodies. That's why God destroyed most of them (Noah) to protect that game plan. You try to save your ego, so you lose your immortal life. Not very smart.

          (6) Again, you confuse your temporary, frail body with your immortal, albeit sleeping spirit.

          (7) You got it. So, why the **** are you on this forum? Perhaps you were deluded into thinking this was something other than a forum on "Jesus Saves." Why don't you go home; this is not your turf. Why don't you "keep that" delusion stuff "to yourself and similar deluded like yours." Works for me.

        2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
          Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You say I'm wrong and you give many reasons why I am wrong along with false accusations and insults, you have belittled me ridiculed me which are of no matter to me.....
          I say what if I am right and you are wrong when it all comes down to the rapture and you are left behind ..... what if I am right?  I pray for each and everyone of you and your salvation.

          1. Cagsil profile image72
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What if? roll

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That's a hypothetical what if so as not to sound too dogmatic

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Naomi. You ask what if you are right. This rapture thing is another recent belief within Christianity. It wasn't until the mid 1800's that this idea was first brought up. Don't you think if it was truly biblical that someone would have mentioned it somewhere in history before that time?

            Take time out to do some study on the history of your faith. You'll be amazed with what you find.

            1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this
              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Very interesting. That link went nowhere.  Kind of like the arguments that people are raised from the dead. You do realize that you have to post a valid link, if you are trying to make a point?

                If you have evidence, please give me a good link to review it. Thanks. smile

            2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
              Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Above you will see documentation of a man raised from the dead by Reinhard Bunkee.  There is medical documentation that he was pronounced dead.  Three days later his wife took him to a meeting of Reinhard and this man was completely healed and restored scars healed and all.
              As far as the first translation of the Bible.  The first English hand written translation of the Bible was produced by John wyclffe in 1380AD.  I believe you are once again mistaken Emile

              1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
                Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Smithswigglesworth has several documented cases of raising people from the dead also however I have not yet been able to produce them.  I work for a living so I have limited time to search but given time I could find them I believe.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Naomi, I appreciate what you are trying to do. However, I'll need proof outside of a sect that buys into the tom foolery of a preacher.
                  If there was something to this Wigglesworth guy, more than a sad attempt to make a living by taking advantage of the hopes and dreams of others; we would already have the information.  He was a circus act, by everything I have read.

              2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, the first recorded translation of the "bible" occurred around 132 B.C.  There were translations before that, but the dates are uncertain.  That's right, people were messing with the bible before there was a "bible" and certainly before Christ was born.

              3. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The comment had nothing to do with what books are in your Bible.  It referred to the notion of the Rapture. That is interpretation. Fairly new, historically speaking.

                I know what your sect teaches you. It is common to all cults.  Believe in them, and only them.  But, the trtuh is out there Naomi.  Seek and you will find. Don't be afraid to open your eyes and look further than the wall your personal religion has asked you to raise against the world at large.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  There is nothing wrong with new revelation. Growth is a prime directive of Christianity. The old revelations were not compared to the original meanings of the original words, the dupings of Catholicism were prominent but today many christians are enjoying word study and hebrew meanings and getting into the word of God in a new and different way than did the old school. so to coin a phrase.
                  New revelation is all around and its coming to a church near you

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No. New interpretations, to suit fancies of your sect happen frequently. Calling it revelation is absurd. And I won't pretend that pentecostal, literalist and/or bible thumping christianity is anything other than a stagnant excuse for prejudice and hatred.

    3. Zabbella profile image76
      Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      More powerful...I know that with my belief my *ahem* is gonna be saved when the trumpets blow.   He will be back much more powerful.  He will rock your world.   So... Re think how you criticize someone who COULD have saved his hide but did not , for our collective....*ahem*

  14. Woman Of Courage profile image60
    Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago

    Yes Jesus saves! I am not ashamed to acknowledge that I need him in my life. Jesus is the only true way to salvation.

  15. Naomi's Banner profile image77
    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago

    We were talking about the first translation that has the Revelation in it.  That could not have been written prior to Christ's birth as it records a vision given to the Apostle John by Jesus while John was exhiled.  It consists of letters to the church's of Asia and many symbolic warnings of things to come.  The one you speak of could not have included the New Testament.  Thanks for helping out though Melissa.

  16. Naomi's Banner profile image77
    Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago

    We were talking about the first translation that has the Revelation in it.  That could not have been written prior to Christ's birth as it records a vision given to the Apostle John by Jesus while John was exhiled.  It consists of letters to the church's of Asia and many symbolic warnings of things to come.  The one you speak of could not have included the New Testament.  Thanks for helping out though Melissa.

  17. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Jesus saves!


    Has he saved enough to buy a V8 cloud yet?



    Part of an old Jewish joke I heard once about the boss's son. smile

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  18. Todd Psick profile image60
    Todd Psickposted 5 years ago

    I don't deserve anything I have today, and the Bible says those who are not chosen won't understand. I don't have to defend God, because His word does that already. Wether you belive it or not is up to you, but to deny it is another story. It is very clear to the people that it is suposed to be clear to. I would never deny Jesus as my Lord and Savior. He Is King. Take it or leave it, but first read the Bible and be very sure it does not make sense. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain!
    Have a great weekend

    1. Evolution Guy profile image60
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      U do realize what you said contradicts itself. Right? lol lol

      Those not chosen will not understand?
      The people it is supposed to be clear to?

      How can we "take it or leave it" if it will only be clear to those chosen? lol lol

      See how that makes no sense, Preacher Man? lol

      More self-righteous nonsense.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        paradox eludes you also i see

        read 2 corinthians 3 and 4 and be enlightened!

        or not
        smile

        1. Evolution Guy profile image60
          Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No - I understand the obvious contradiction just fine thank you. lol I am just not so scared I need to pretend it is not there.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Care to explain it then?

          2. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            and not so smart as to be able to figure it out either.
            I think i just laughed in your general direction.

  19. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Naomi, not to be pushy... but could we get back to the question of your advice potentially killing someone?  What are your views on a diabetic reading your hub, throwing away their insulin in favor of prayer... then dying from it?  Reasonably, it could happen.  Are you okay with that possibility?

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      hmmm
      lets see
      someone who doesnt know God, throwing away their insulin... not in favor of... someone who knows God, throwin away their insulin, kinda in favor of.
      But
      Just because someone believes in God does not mean they have all his powers. For instance, a christian who is just a weekend christian and doesn't have a strong connection to God, who hasn't put God first and who is doesn't have enough faith to believe in Gods will for their life to be cured, should not throw away the insulin.
      A proper pattern for all christians, would be to keep taking the insulin, use the situation of affliction to focus on God and get the relationship happening and then allow God to tell them when to throw the insulin away.
      To just throw the insulin away without understanding the will of God is tempting God, which is a no no, because Christianity is all about the fathers instruction in all areas of the christians life. Until we have the instruction, we better not act hastily.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's a truly remarkable gift you have there brotheryochanan.  You typed a 175 word answer in which you said absolutely nothing. Kudos.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          your gift is equally as astounding

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I have many gifts.  They are all astounding.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              and none of them helped you understand my post.

    2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You .... pushy...never big_smile.   Melissa I have since edited my Hub.  Thanks for pointing that out to me. I added a disclaimer to it to include anyone wanting to be healed and wanting to excercise their faith in healing is highly recommended to seek a medical physician prior to stopping any medication that is perscribed in treating their illness.  This only makes sense to have the monitoriing of a licensed physician checking your blood work making sure you are on the right track and doing the right thing.  The problem is that some people are just not there yet with their faith and need to study the scriptures enough to get them into their heart.  You have to know that you know. 
      Thanks Melissa for pushing on this as I have heard of people doing just that and they ended up very sick or dead and that would be absolutely awful and I certainly do not want that on my conscience.  I pray that no one reading my Hub or this forum will throw wisdom out the window acting without using the wisdom that God gave us throught medical doctors.  Also Melissa thanks for contributing to my forum.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Naomi, I may not agree with your faith but I don't question your right to express it.  (Although doing so obviously leaves your beliefs open for discussion).  In this case we have a ~similar~ situation.  I practice herbology, which also relies largely on anecdotal evidence (not a lot of independent scientific studies on the effectiveness of most of the herbs)  When dealing with anything relating to health, extra caution needs to be taken.  Its the whole ~Firstly do no harm~ rule.
        I personally cannot not say whether God personally interacts to heal individuals or what the individual needs to do to receive this healing. I was just keeping the first rule in mind. 

        In short, not attacking your religion at all, just being practical.

        HAGD.

        1. Naomi's Banner profile image77
          Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I appreciate your honesty and would be interested in information on herbs. Do you have hubs written in reference to herbs?  I know of many many cases of healing under the faith of God but one that sticks out right now is a good friend of mine that attends the church I go to who was diagnosed with MS and was told she would never have children and she was healed and her medical doctor confirmed it and it is now twenty five years late and she has two beautiful children and is symptom free and doctors can find no trace of MS in her body. It is awesome what my God can do.

        2. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
          Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nice to hear you practicing herbology Melissa.  I too am a believer in natural healing.  Whatever comes from God, especially from trees and herbs the can cure, rhyme perfectly with the human body, the temple of God.  We have a dynamic body God created to heal itself, through our immune system.  That is where antioxidants out of fruits, vegetables, nitric oxide, etc. of natural origin come in to keep us healthy.  When we are attuned to God, in harmony with His words and in Christ, the better our body receives and process antioxidants in helping us heal.  I am presently using green tea, grape seeds or resveratrol, VCO or virgin coconut oil, nitric oxide, redwine, Vit C, calcium, Sun Chorella, grapefruits, etc. and I do brisk walking every other day to keep me healthy. Yes, I very much believe that faith can heal as Christ has healed many in their faith, and that includes me having undergone angioplasty in 2002 and a mild stroke in 2010. All these, I believe, for a reason.

  20. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
    Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago

    I know that some people may find views about God boring, Naomi.  Many times, though, for those who still doubt the truth about God and His love for us, do we realize that we can get confused and get lost focusing our efforts more on material things in this life which may just be reduced to nothingness and may all become meaningless as we come to pass?

    While we know how important living in this life is to many, the body of man itself deserves respect and to be treated with dignity as man has been created in the image and likeness of God, his body sacred as it is God's temple.  Did it ever occur to you that God has reminded you countless times that this life is only temporary, in other words, a borrowed life.  Soon, we will be called as God may someday tell us, 'You're time is up Buddy." And life can only become shorter as time pass?  And how foolish people may become if until now we fail to see in our hearts and in their spirit the truth about God and the truth in His words and in Christ Jesus, after all the many recorded astonishing miracles attributed to the belief in God and Christ Jesus?  How can we see God if we have a hardened heart and spirit?  How can we see God when He is in spirit, an unfathomable spirit, beyond man's human wisdom and intelligence, and all knowing as He has no Beginning and no End.  Even Christ Jesus is now in Spirit. I will not be surprised at all if other people by divine will and purpose or design may be granted to see him in body or in spirit as in Matthew 19:26, Jesus said, "... with God, all things are possible," and being the true Son of God, and one with God, with him, all things are possible.  I am not surprised at all how many gifted people may have claimed to have heard God,  the Holy Spirit, and/or have seen Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, the angels or even other people's deceased love ones as they opened their spirit or have seen a great light in Near Death Experiences or NDE.  God is spirit, so is Christ Jesus, upon his death and resurrection in body body and spirit.  Only a spiritual person and a person of strong faith may be able to understand whatever truth there may be in this, and in every miracle or revelation that God may allow man to see.  For fraudulent claims, God will reveal all these to man in due time through the Holy Spirit.  Don't you feel his presence by merely looking around us and see beyond the wonders of His love for us with the beauty and awesome creation He has made around man, and inside of man with the many gifts and talents man has?  And that counts your intelligence my friend.  Are not all these deserving of man's gratitude for God's goodness and greatness?  How can one know God if he does not open his heart and spirit to Him?  How can one see God if he has not even learned to love others but only himself? Do we really need a miracle, a revelation in each one of us just as what God has done to Saint Paul as he saw the resurrected Christ before his very eyes that caused him not to see and remain blind for three days before ever feeling the sudden urge and adrenalin rush in his veins to become a true witness to God's words and the truth in  Christ Jesus and his light? Do we really need to see how many saints and faithfuls have never feared death under torture and persecution while they became willing instruments of God's love for man? Do we really need to see how people have been healed of incurable illness because of their faith in Christ Jesus? Do we really have to see how God has made man see through the great annals of history that no evil in this world did ever last as we have seen many a dictators and conquerors of men fall and perish, and otherwise humbled, as they met their death, having themselves caused death to many?  And sadly, many died in their guilt, whether they repented or not, is not God to judge and will repay as in Romans 12:14-21? Do we really need to see why those who go astray and refused to see the light of God end up having a troubled and stressed up life, as they go through a real life experience of hell as early as in this life? Do we still have to ponder why until now science has only unproven theories to share about evolution with Charles Darwin himself admitting his limitations and weakness for further proof on his theory, the existence of man and the universe, or why until now, science cannot even prove why there is consciousness of the spirit in NDE even with a lifeless or a brain dead body, why there are miracle cures through faith in Christ Jesus, why carbon dating accuracy is still in question, why despite the many alleged alien and UFO sightings, there are still no proof of any life outside of our planet, why until now there is no denial or verification from NASA about the recently discovered dwarf star Elenin which has been reported by some observers to be moving on a path of its own and with some analysts saying that this may have been causing some unusual calamities around the world with its own gravitational pull of the earth, and more?  Or has science become part of an evil design by some to veer man away from the truth about God and the truth about Christ Jesus, instead of being an instrument of God's love for man?

    St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:16-23,

    “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

    “Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.

    And in 1 Corinthians 1:19, Saint Paul in Christ,

    “For it is written:

    “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    For is not God’s wisdom greater than human wisdom?
    If we have to die today, what will we ask our Creator to justify an extension of our life?
    And how can we ever ask for an extension when we have not truly believed in Him or have just put Him on the sidelines while we have tried to satisfy our own cravings?

    May God grant us the wisdom to see the light of Christ in this world, as we learn to collectively pray, that we may focus our life in the love of God through the love of man, whatever religious or political beliefs we may have, that we may unite and learn to sacrifice our 'self,' by becoming 'selfless' as we try to help one another  through our love for each other, as God has shown His love and mercy on us all, and with this change in our hearts and spirit, we may see true peace and happiness to reign in this life, and use science, technology, our talents and all material resources for the love of man, that in all these God may be glorified, as He is so worthy to be glorified in His never ending goodness to those who remain faithful and obedient to Him.  And by His love and mercy, we may be saved from the fires of Hell and from the possibility of an impending doom as we see crazy things that are already happening in this world.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image60
      Evolution Guyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well done - you win the "Most condescension in a single post" award. lol What drivel. Let me know when you get down off you self righteous high horse and become "selfless," wink

      No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.

      1. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        yes, God destroying the wisdom of man is cause to launch those nukes!

        That was a very hateful perception of a very lovely speech. Your perception and height of ego is what causes wars.  That speech certainly did not. And speaking of condescension, I don't think you understood what was typed there. There was no hatred, no forcing. NO. Your sloppy interpretation of Edwins post is what causes wars that and the big ego which forces you to comment so rudely is fuel for your narcissism.

        If you want to thank me for my comment, just remember not to start a war.

    2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you for so elliquently putting into words what I was unable to say adequately.  I can see you have a true relationship with God being filled with his spirit and His love.  It is a treasure to have you come and post on my forum.  I welcome your insight anytime.  God bless you in your endeavors!!

      1. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
        Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It is in the light of Christ that we gain true strength in this life, as he has become One with the Father; hence, in him, we see God's love in his words of truth, hope, mercy and forgiveness, that we too may become one with him, as we die to our 'self' and fully trust in his words. In 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, St. Paul says in all humility, devoid of eloquence or superior wisdom, but with love and in truth in the spirit and with the crucified Christ, “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.”

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What a pile of drivel this is!

          No gods, just myths and gullible people. lol

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            But all hail....
            National Geographic channel!

            There is no need to debunk those roman myths because obviously they are myths, but there is just something special about that jesus guy.

  21. flauta profile image78
    flautaposted 5 years ago

    my believe is, that Jesus was born and remained a mortal man. He was God's prophet. His message was clear, he never said that we can get to God only through him. God endowed him as every of his prophet with the power to perform miracles. All we are responsible for our deeds according to which we will be judged, the fact that I believe Jesus was a prophet would not save me, if i was really a bad person. God is the most merciful and in this i put my trust.

    1. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
      Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Denying Christ is denying God as he is God the Son, being one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only those who pray and believe in spirit and in truth will be able to understand this, as previously mentioned, not by human wisdom, as God is spirit. By the power of his words and many miracles he has done in his lifetime, and after, through the saints and those gifted by him through the Holy Spirit, no one, by far, has exceeded his greatness and power or even equaled his wisdom, even in the driving of demons and raising the dead to life, making the blind see, healed the lepers, the lame to walk, seeing him walk on water, amazingly feeding thousands who listened to his teaching out of a few pieces of bread and fish, for he is the true Messiah, the Redeemer of the World. It is just so sad that until now, many refuse to listen as they prefer to listen only to human intelligence and to their own minds and their hardened hearts, instead of opening up their spirit, and their hearts to the love of others which may make them happier and whole, as many who have done this have never been happier. Still, we hope and pray for your enlightenment, my dear brothers and sisters, as we express the love of Jesus in our hearts for you to heal in Jesus' light and his words of love, to pierce your heart that you may see God's wisdom in him, being the true Son of God, who is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.  Just by looking around our world, may the Holy Spirit enlighten all non-believers to open their hearts and spirit, to bring peace and love into themselves as they may see the truth in the light of Christ.  With his words of truth and love, humility, understanding, mercy and forgiveness, only those who follow him in these words, as you may have seen, have attained peace in one's life, while those who may have denied all these to rule their hearts, and have refused to die to their 'self,' do you seriously think they will have peace in their their lives?  To those who may refuse to listen, do you not see what may be ruining  their lives? Is it not denying the words of Christ Jesus?  When Jesus was praying while being baptized by Saint John the Baptist, his divinity has again been made manifest, as in Luke 3:21-22, then “heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.  And a voice came from heaven:  ‘You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.’”
      No one has ever been divinely blessed, except our dear Lord Jesus Christ.
      “I and the father are one”.  In John 14: 11-14 Jesus added, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me… I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.  He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.  And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.  You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

  22. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Yes, those damn backwoods coal country West Virginian Christians. Horribly closed minded and ignorant. But that Judge Judy... now there is wisdom right there.

    1. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      lol lol lol

      Jubs Joobly is one of the worlds true authoritative figures.

      Just ask her!

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You know Earnest, if you weren't married I'd make a play for you smile

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You know Melissa that you wouldn't. smile Thank you, and give my best to your husband. smile

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Very good answer. smile I don't have to give your best to him-he lurks around here-and I indeed love him to distraction.

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I am aware of your love affair with your man Melissa, I read all the posts. smile

              Loving someone to the point of distraction should be compulsory! smile

    2. SheliaKay profile image60
      SheliaKayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, it sure  is....Lets see,  socializing with closed minded, pistol packing, Bible thumping hillbillies or  watching Judge Judy on tv. Hmmm lets say I spent a whole lot of time sitting in front of my television set until I left that god forsaken place.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wow, probably the reason that West Virginians seemed so close minded to you was because they picked up your "I'm better than you" attitude.  That's a shame too, because as a whole, we are one of the most tolerant loving demographics that I've ever seen.  I have never met one, not one, native West Virginian that wouldn't pull the shirt off of their own back to help someone in need. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but I've never seen one.  I have seen people take entire families that they have never met into their own homes after a flood or a fire and I have seen people who live WELL below the poverty line raid their own pantries to give to others that are only marginally less well-off.  I have also watched entire communities of those in "coal country" gather outside of a mine to comfort each other when there was a collapse.

        I personally have heard old men in local diners have philosophical conversations that you could not begin to wrap your mind around.  I know farmers that can tell you what the weather will be like the next day with 100 percent accuracy without ever looking at a television. 

        You want to know who you're looking down your nose at?  They are the ones that risk their lives to provide power so you can watch your precious little Judge Judy.  They are the ones that grow the food that you shovel into your unappreciative mouth.

        And if you would have listened to anything those "bible thumpers" said, you would have realized that "God" means community in these here parts.  Any other religious distinction is on you.

        Now, if you want to lay your swinging cyber-ego on the table with the Hillbilly that is now addressing you, we can line up our I.Q. scores, our world knowledge, our formal education, and our open-mindedness.  I'll take on the collective wisdom of Judge Judy any day.  And I would certainly take on a closed-minded stereotyping wannabe quasi-intellectual.

  23. SomewayOuttaHere profile image60
    SomewayOuttaHereposted 5 years ago

    "Jesus Saves".....perfect!...next?....

  24. SheliaKay profile image60
    SheliaKayposted 5 years ago

    I do believe in a "God" of some sort, but I just can't accept "Jesus as savior", or "God's only begotten Son". Jesus if he did actually exist it appears to me he was just one of many historical spiritualist of the world, but according to "Christian belief" I will be damned to hell just for that reason. It doesn't matter if I have lived a good honest life or not, but the man sitting on death row for murder all of a sudden accepts Jesus as his savior is welcomed with open arms into the pearly gates of Heaven when this so called loving all mighty God will throw us non believers into the fiery pits of hell. I feel very offended by that belief.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "To whom much is forgiven, much will be required".
      Since you have a good honest life there will not be that much required of you by God, as you will not have so much work to do, but as to the fellow on deaths row, he will not have such an easy time of it, for the path too holiness will need much work.
      Count your blessings.
      What kind of a God would God be if forgiveness of ones errors were not available to all.
      Do not worry about the 'hell' theory, it's incorrect. The only fiery hell is called the lake of fire and that is the 'second death'. God is not about eternal punishing. God gains nothing to have souls burning forever. I am sure the second death of the soul will be quick and complete.
      "for God so loved the world he gave his son that those who believe on jesus would not perish <-- be put to an end, destroy fully, - but have eternal life".

      1. SheliaKay profile image60
        SheliaKayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What exactly will I be forgiven for? My disbelief that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior of all mankind? Sorry, that just don't fly with me. I am not worried about burning in your lake of fire because it does not exist. What happens to me when I die is not a big concern for me. My focus is on living, and trying to be the best person I can be now in this life for no other reason but that is who I am, not because of this so called "heaven" that may or may not exist.

        1. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
          Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          In this life Shelia, we have been given 'free will,' just as our fore parents, Adam and Eve. Nevertheless, God has given us two paths or two masters to choose from, as in Matthew 6:24 that we cannot serve two masters at the same time.  We choose only one … either God or Mammon (money/lust/power/pride/material things).  If we opt to be ruled by material things or by Mammon, which the evil one prefers and which may lead to darkness, can we ever attain satisfaction and peace in our life?  But if we learn to live in truth and follow the powerful words of God in His Son, Jesus Christ, who surrender all our worries and burden to him as he carries our yoke in forgiveness of our sins, what would we have to worry about if we live with love for others in our hearts and spirit?  Shelia, my dear sister, in Christ, I have learned to see heaven and hell just by living in this world, and as early, Christ has opened my eyes about the truth that living in him and with him, there is no substitute to being one with God and have felt an unparalleled joy doing this.  I have learned to lift up my worldly wants and desires to him for I know, that all these things in life are as temporary as what have all come to pass in my lifetime.  And for me, eternal happiness is a gift and a reward for those who have faith and follow Christ Jesus.  That even in this life time, one may already experience a glimpse of this joy just by living in his words.

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Or not.

            1. God is satisfied with his works
                     Gen 1:31
                    God is dissatisfied with his works.
                     Gen 6:6
                 2. God dwells in chosen temples
                     2 Chron 7:12,16
                    God dwells not in temples
                     Acts 7:48
                 3. God dwells in light
                     Tim 6:16
                    God dwells in darkness
                     1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
                 4. God is seen and heard
                     Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
                      Ex 24:9-11
                    God is invisible and cannot be heard
                     John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
                 5. God is tired and rests
                     Ex 31:17
                    God is never tired and never rests
                     Is 40:28
                 6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
                     Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
                    God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
                    things
                     Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
                 7. God knows the hearts of men
                     Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
                    God tries men to find out what is in their heart
                     Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
                 8. God is all powerful
                     Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
                   God is not all powerful
                     Judg 1:19


            No contradictions here, nothing to see. move along. smile

    2. Naomi's Banner profile image77
      Naomi's Bannerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It doesn't matter whether or not you are offended....statement not intended to offend.
      Jesus saves all who believe in HIm and accept Him as their Saviour.  If you are all about love and walking as Jesus walked it doesn't matter when the life is saved just that it is saved.  It's like pulling drowning people out of the water you dont stop to ask how many sins they committed you just pull them out.
      Don't concentrate on what others are given.  Concentrate on what is freely given to you.  Grace is free and lavished on us all who will accept it.

  25. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    @emile

    I knew what you meant wink

  26. Edwinoel Tanglao profile image83
    Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 5 years ago

    Hi Slarty, for one who believes in Christ and have seen the light of Christ, I am happy to share with you my views and beliefs as I continue to seek Christ's guidance through the Holy Spirit, I have never seen as much as before, as I see now the truth in the words of Christ in this life. Twice I had a near death experience and each time, he has revealed in me the power of trusting in him and abiding by his words. I have learned that no human wisdom and intelligence can ever fathom God's wisdom as he made us all and nobody is greater than Him.  We can either choose to follow God through Christ Jesus by thanking and glorifying him in all circumstances that happen in our life as we abide by his words of truth and by his commands, or choose to be enslaved by the material things in life which may add no meaning to our life when we are humbled as we die.  Do you believe that through God's power, man has been given great talents and gifts which are supposed to be used for the love of others?  If one becomes happy out of God's goodness in men, do we not thank God for this goodness and blessing into our life?  Man has become an instrument of God's love and as long as we acknowledge this truth, then we remain in his love.  But if we fail by becoming selfish in this goodness, failing to love others in return for his goodness, and failing to share his light and his truth with others, then he will repay us in his anger as in Hosea 13:11 and in Romans 12:14-21. And in Matthew 6:24 that we cannot serve two masters at the same time.  We choose only one … either God or Mammon (excessive materialism, sins of lust, pride, selfishness).  We may find happiness doing what we want to do for own satisfaction but for how long?  Later, we may see us back to being unhappy as we fail in our love for others and allow malice to corrupt our minds.  If science is use to veer us away from the truth in God and the love of others, then we see the evil in science, as we may see this too in technology and in everything that man has made.  While we have freedom to decide what we need to do in this life, God always reminds how we may be fooled by all these things that we experience and see around us, that we forget about our concern and love for others, which is the very reason for our existence, that having been made in his image and likeness, we should enjoy the gift of life and its blessings with others because this life is but temporary, as we are being tested by God how much we love, worship and adore him by showing our love and respect on others.  It is only when we open our eyes to this reality that we may learn the purpose of our existence.  All happiness in this life is but temporary, except the inexplicable joy and happiness that one experiences when one is with Christ and in Christ.  What is the use of being happy for a time but suffer for a longer time?  Remember my dear Slarty, life is short, while eternity is endless. Don't be fooled by the evil one. Here in this life we can already feel true joy and happiness sharing the love of God in Christ with others. Life is what we make it. If we surrender everything, all our hurts, our wants, our defeats, our failures, and all our sins to Christ, and let Jesus carry all this load for us as we learn to trust him, and learn to love others more in this life, in all humility and obedience to the Lord, Slarty, I assure you, you will be happier than before, as you make others happy in this life.  And you will see tears of joy that will flow from your eyes as you feel the truth in the love of Christ.  It is not material that makes one truly happy, it is believing and living in the words of Christ, or Lord and Savior, and our true healer.  Jesus in me loves you Slarty.  Take care, keep healthy in Christ and Godspeed.

    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Your god does not show it's face, probably because it does not exist. But you tell me it is all love and light but if I don't believe it exists I will suffer for r\eternity.

      If a god existed why couldn't it wait till I am dead? Then I will see it and believe it exists and glory be. But no. Like all good con men I have to jump on the deal now when it is hot and before it is too late.

      Forgive me for not falling for that old con which is older than the god myth itself.

      You god in everything because you have confirmation bias. Someone preys and their wish comes true and god dun it. But what about the thousand times people pray and nothing happens?

      You see what you want to see. You ignore the evidence that your god is a myth. You ignore the history of your own church. You focus on making real your fantasy.

      I can see you are a good person with good intent and a good heart. But you are not being logical about this at all. And I know, christianity is not about logic. More is the pity. Perhaps if it were you or some one would be able to answer my question. Why would a god need  to order a murder in order to forgive us?

      To me that's a deal breaker, or at least one of them. It was fine for barbarians and primitives to believe such nonsense but come on now, how can you believe it? How can you not see through it ?

      The only thing we need to be saved from is this god myth of yours. That you can not be happy without it is a real shame. I feel sorry for people who need to believe there is a god above that will save them from death.

      I have made peace with death. I will accept it as we all must in the end. No one gets out of here alive. I have never been so happy as when I threw off the yoke of your myth. You think it frees you but it makes you a willing slave to the whims of a fantasy god.

      I am at peace and could never be more so by believing fantasy. Please do not assume to think I am suffering because I don't accept your word or the word of a 2000 to 3000 year old fiction novel.

      The not Jesus in me loves you too. I don't need a ghost in me to know we are all connected through our nature. I think all life is special because there is no after life. It is a one shot deal. Life has meaning because it is not eternal. Eternal life has no meaning. Having a mythical god in your life adds no meaning. How could a god add meaning to your life? It's nonsense.

      If life was eternal it would be cheap. Who cares if you murder me? I will just rise again. Whoopy s**t.. Who cares.

      But because it is only a one shot deal your life and all life is precious. Why waste it believing nonsense?

  27. paradigmsearch profile image91
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    Gosh! I just love having this phrase shoved in my face everyday.

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    1. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

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  28. Ebower profile image80
    Ebowerposted 5 years ago

    paradigmsearch:  It's ok to disagree, but if you don't have anything nice to say, please don't say anything at all.

    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What he said was true. We hear that nonsense too often. Christians act as if we are not sick to death of hearing it. The good news isn't news anymore people, it's damn near 2000 years old and it was never good or new to begin with. Give it a break.

      But really, typing the words in protest ten thousand times is annoying too. lol...

 
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