I don't think this proves that prayer is useless...what about if you're praying for scientists to find a cure :-)
That would produce the exact same results as not praying.
Are you more of a mind to react some religious ritual to ease the mind or would you rather do something constructive?
Don't you think that prayer is just something someone does to pretend they actually accomplished something constructive?
So, have another look at the picture and see exactly what prayer accomplishes, whether it's curing diseases or praying for scientists to cure diseases.
And your picture is "proof?" That's a laugh.
Most people don't know how to pray. It's like a jackhammer operator trying his hand at fixing a wristwatch for the first time. All thumbs and sledgehammers.
Even the Nazarene teacher's disciple, Peter, had a hard time doing it when he stepped out of his storm-tossed boat onto the Sea of Galilee. He walked for a few seconds and then sank. But for those few seconds, he "got it" -- what it really meant.
With your lack of faith, you would sink, too. And so do most people's farce of pretended "prayer." And you base your weak "proof" on that? Were you trying to be funny?
The picture is allegorical. I am assuming you do not know what that means as you think peopel actually walk on water.
Love the condescending aggression and combative tone - thank you for once again validating my opinion about your religion.
It's a clear representation of reality, not the reality in which Jesus "parts the sea" of cars on a boulevard, but the reality we all share where science cures diseases.
LOL! That's the best argument you could come up with to support prayer?
I'm sorry, I'm not getting it. What do these picture convey?
Science, can only address the Physical aspects of life...
Whereas there is much more to Life than just a Physical body ...
In Koran, we are told of two 'things' what are commonly called 'Moieties' in Philosophy that constitute the Humans ... These are the Body Moiety and and the Moiety, called the Soul ...
But since Science has no Rational Explanation for the "Soul" Moiety, it only addresses the Physical Body's Moiety ... Matters relating the Soul, for ignorance, are altogether ignored by Sciences and Seculars ...
Now read the following very carefully ... what I state, regarding how the Body and Soul compose the "Human" entity ... and How Prayers effect ... what Science cannot !
"At all the Points what constitute our Existence ... meaning, the State of our "Being" ...Things come to Exist in Human Awareness ... of The Lord's Ordination.
Things, come to "Be" ... meaning Exist ... In His Granted Ideal [Nounal Concept] and His Created [Physical] Structure, Bonding in the Human Mind, unto the living human's Awareness ...
This point of the "Bonding" of Matter with Idea ...is the Point, where Introduction of Prayers, can, and does Alter ... what Physical Medicine and Sciences cannot."
Thus, we should reject the theory that Science in any sense superior or opposed to Religion ... both Science and Prayers have a distinct Function, and Role ... In, Creation.
Only complete religion can give more in depth to science.
Science can't generate new theories without the knowledge of religion.Otherwise science will only be producing only upgrade versions rather than producing new ones.
Why would say such things that are so obviously false? Is that what your religion teaches you to do?
Man don't get angry.I just posted what i think is Ok.
You can share your ideas may be they are right and i might be wrong.
Don't make it SCIENCE VS PRAYER.
Its just rediculous comparing so.Religion or Prayer is a pathway/guidance to live your life within certain limits,like as you need LAW to regulate the society with better social control.So that nobody would be harmed & to provide justice to the innocent person.
Science is what we all need man to bring more comforts to our life, & more nd more.
Comparing Science with Religion is not Appreciateable at all man.
But has religion the authority on the real God, or is it's mention of god lip service, a sales technique.
Is God -note the capitals- working WITH medicine in an unseen way, perhaps not always but sometimes! Read the scripture that warns against cutting things out -I even tried cannabis once just so that I didn't fall foul of that rule, not all of it just shared a drag with some idiots who I once hoped would be friends before they took to that smelly rotten weed!
What's the point in attempting discussion with someone who is 100% convinced- of something so patently false?
Nevertheless, since you asked, here's my attempt at discussion.
I work in emergency services. I provide medical treatment in the field and have to undergo constant continuing education to keep updated with the best current field medical science has to offer. And I pray. I pray to keep calm and situationally aware in an emergency. I pray that I remember my training and do my job right. If a run proves very tough, I pray for strength, resilience, and healing for all affected, and that we may be of comfort to each other.
Once in a while, miracles happen, too, but I don't count on them cropping up whenever I happen to want one.
Meditation, self-calming and positive thinking are all available without calling on an Invisible Super Being to intervene. The cognitive dissonance bought about by denying the fact that the Super Being never intervenes and the lack of self understanding surely outweighs the short lived peace prayer brings.
Dealing with reality is hard - especially when faced with death and destruction on a daily basis. Many people turn to denial in order to cope. It is generally far healthier to try understanding yourself and learn genuine coping mechanisms instead of believing in majik.
It will make you a better person.
Having done a quick self assessment and noted an uptick in blood pressure and pulse, I determined that paying any attention to anyone who refers to prayer as "majik" is actually detrimental to my physical as well as emotional well-being. It won't make me a better person.
What is patently false?
Many who work in the medical field need not pray for such things and they still manage to do their very best. In fact, even if you didn't pray, you would still do your job.
Since miracles only crop up "once in a while" we can therefore discount them as something that has to do with God and more to do with medical science and the human body.
I get it. The photo of the "science kids" evolves to color, while that of the "religion" kids remains stuck in the black and white form in which it was divinely created.
I guess that really depends on whether or not, there happens to be a singular point of consciousness which each person could attain and mold for a benefit.
Actually... we simply agree that debating such things with certain individuals is useless.
There is a place for both Science and prayer. God gave us intelligence, and from that sprang science.
Of course, prayer is useless, unless you can show otherwise?
Yes, reality and fantasy, respectively.
Beautiful example of the reason we choose not to debate some.
Here, this may help you get started.
"After South Carolina town prays for football star, doctors say they can’t find cancer..."
According to WJBF:
“Alright C.J.’s got some news for you all on how his chemo went today,” said Fox Creek Head Coach Russ Schneider.
“Umm… Well, I didn’t need to do chemo today,” said C.J.
“I tell you what happened. He got diagnosed with the cancer,” said Schneider. “And, not only this whole community, every one of you, every teacher, every parent, churches we don’t even know about got on their knees and started praying. Somebody said they misdiagnosed him. I’m telling you, he didn’t get misdiagnosed. He got healed.”
http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/09/ … z1Wp7xYuZi
You may want to slow your roll down.
That pic is of Polio victims, and I can assure you science did not make them walk EVER again.
It may have slowed and ceased the spread of Polio... but those kids in that picture did not walk again because of science.
So do not pat yourself to hard on that back yet.
LOL! Those kids in the picture never walked again? Is that the best you can do?
Sorry that scientists aren't the "miracle workers" God tries so hard not to be.
It has nothing to do with science... it has to do with your putting forth that pic as if the kids were cured by science.
They were not. Not kids with polio.
See the difference?
You are putting forth the proposition that science cured those kids... and it did not.
That was your deceptive twist on what they showed... not mine.
You are taking issue with this particular photo? Because it isn't THOSE particular kids that were cured, is that right? Well, you are correct. If you want to try to discredit this on a technicality instead of getting the broader message that science makes medical advances and prayer does not.
*Science has prevented millions from ever knowing the horrors of polio, it did not cure those particular children once they were stricken.
We could, however, show two, three-year-old children with leukemia at the top.
The middle box could have prayer on one side and a bone marrow transplant on the science side.
The prayer child would be shown at his or her funeral with the grieving and still praying parents at the side of the casket.
The child who received the bone marrow transplant could be shown starting his first day of school.
That could represent a real scenario of cure. Would that solve the problem? That should remove the distraction of the bottom photo representing a more broad prevention and lots of kids who never had the disease with the more concrete and exact representation of cure.
You actually looked at the pictures and thought they were the exact same kids? If so, did science shrink the tall kid?
Is that really the very best argument you can put forth, a 'deceptive twist' for sustaining prayer as useful?
Let's, for a moment, call prayer by another name - meditation, focus, willpower, expansion of energy. Whatever you like. What it should amount to is a complete focus on what it is one desires. The more you think about something, or focus on it, the more it grows in your life. If you pray, or meditate on something long enough, it will manifest. Ok, I'm waiting for some wiseguy to jump in here and say he wants to be a monkey but just hasn't been able to make it happen.
It will only manifest if your efforts cause it to be so.
I can meditate on having a ferrari all I want to, but until I put out the effort to earn the money it isn't going to happen.
Given that, meditation can indeed be valuable - it can focus your efforts or cause to you to come with new avenues to get what you want. It cannot produce what you want through some kind of supernatural activity, however.
"Do... or do not, there is no try... a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...."
Interesting thought that intelligence sparked science - it has a ring of truth to it.
The corollary, of course, is where then did religion come from? Has it sprung from our subconscious - that dark place deep within us that demands without caring of consequences? That gives us emotionally based wants and desires regardless of cost and that must be restrained by the intelligence we have?
Well... I know there have been studies in Europe showing that young children having never been taught of God or religion, do seek to know a higher power, and many, kids, claim that they know there is one without any urging.
You can attribute that desire to whatever you want, wild. But chances are just as good it is like a craving, your body and mind know you need it... so you seek it out. And usually that need is for something that is really needed, and is real in its own.
That reminds me of my little grandson, around 5 at the time. For months he knew, with no doubt whatsoever, that he would not spill the next drink he was given. There was simply no possibility, to him, that he was wrong. He believed that with all his heart, but it didn't make it so. He still spilled the drink every single meal.
This is common in children; that what they want to be true is true. Some grow out of it and eventually understand that reality is seldom what they want it to be.
It would seem that many cravings might come from our subconscious as a result of a very real need. I've heard (don't know if it is actually true) that people that crave a piece of ice to chew on are very often iron deficient. The body seems to recognize a problem and produces that craving. It is wrong in how to correct the deficiency, but it tries as best it can. If true; I've never seen studies.
The subconscious is a very powerful part of our brain and has far more control and "knowledge" of our bodies than we commonly give it credit for. Unfortunately, it also seems quite capable of picking wants and desires from the conscious, rational side of us and insisting that simply because we want we can have.
That ridiculous theory was popular in the 1950's. It has been thoroughly debunked in the ensuing years. You can believe anything you want (including your "Hitler was a liberal" B.S.), but when you try to come up with logical support for the existence of a supreme being, you simply embarrass yourself.
Oh come on, Ron. Logical support is quite simple:
1) Everything has a cause.
2) The universe exists and we don't understand it what caused it.
The universe was caused by an eternal being that has no cause for its existence.
Oh sh**! I never thought of it that way.
Excuse me, there's prayin' to do and gays to persecute...er, I mean bring into the lord's loving embrace.
Thanks for saving my soul.
You're welcome. Now go and pray for your soul. Just please, don't pray for mine.
Hey, if you to ladies could get off your BS wagon for just a bit, you might discover that you actually have a spirit which can be loving instead of sarcastic. There's no love in sarcasm.
I'm very glad for you, earnest - you have been a particularly hard case.
The collection plate is over in the corner - I accept cash or clicks...
I have seen the light! No more mister nice guy! Who do I need to kill again?
I remember.... I have a list somewhere. I will publish it over the next two years or so.....it's a long list as I remember.
Gotta go.....lots of people to hate and so little time before the next coming.
May I humbly suggest you begin with the google algorithm programmers? If you hurry perhaps you can find them before they come again, just as you say.
The Google algorithm atheist scum are going down! Straight to hell with the lot of em! I will now pray for that.
I love being religious again! True freedom is wonderful!
This may be more than I bargained (or prayed) for. Have I created a monster?
Perhaps you should consider just a small chain back to reality, Earnest? Just a wee, little one?
*edit* I happen to notice that the collection plate is still empty....
God will provide for us all! Don't worry about me, I am right on god's good work. Off to provide god's word to some of these scum! It's time for a good lynching!
Well, see, that's the problem; G isn't providing. Oh sure, some cheap b*****d slipped in a click for a few pennies, but that won't feed the starving children and I know it wasn't you, Earnest. Now anyone that will take on G's minions can be counted on; be a good boy and kick out a few good clicks for the one that saved you.
Atheists have enough people to hate already and they didn't need a religion to push them, they just had to find somebody elses'.
Atheists don't hate anyone. We just love you so much we want to educate you. What a shame you are so arrogant and rebellious you refuse to be educated. That does not change the fact that we love you so much we will continue to try. One day - Douglas Adams willing - all religious people will be educated out of their irrational war mongering.
Some might find this to be of interest on the subject of the usefullness of prayer.
The New York Times? You use a well known atheist rag to debunk the FACT that prayers help healing.
Thought that an astute religionist like yourself might notice that so I included the abstract of the original study. But, of course that was done by scientists, also the enemy of 'truth' so I guess that doesn't help.
Well at least you realize it. My prayers for you will now be of the positive variety....but watch your step mister.
It's watch your step Mrs., just for the record. Women have to keep quiet in church, not medical school,LOL. And I am glad you will not smite me remotely with your prayers.
I secretly think Ron is the enemy of Truth. And maybe Earnest, too. More sarcasm than debate.
I've never thought of the two as a different thing. They're both intentioned to make the world a better place. Of course, hundreds of years ago there was no science (which is nothing but an answered prayer of the human species) and now there is. Thanks to science we have progress that we didn't have before. Where science stops, prayer begins. An uncurable cancer might not get healed through prayer, but it might help the family and patient to get through that rocky road with a better frame of mind.
Like, trying to ease the frame of mind of a father whose only son was killed when he asks, "Why such a senseless death?" we respond, "God works in mysterious ways."
I'd love to hear what kind of comment you'd come up with for such a father. What will you say, Troubled Man?
LIFE SUCKS AND THEN YOU DIE?!
For myself, not much difference. That phrase about God working mysteriously has never been any solace.
Different strokes for different folks.
There are plenty of other meaningless platitudes available to demonstrate you do not have any answers instead of pretending majik will happen.
How about - "There is no reason. Sometimes these things happen and we just have to cope with them as best we can."
Or do you have to pretend some knowledge to make yourself feel better? Although I fail to see how blaming an Invisible Super Being for killing a child and then saying "you are just too stupid to understand why," actually helps. Does it make you feel better to tell people they are too stupid to understand? I would certainly be offended if you offered me this nonsense.
That comment and the one about God working in mysterious ways would be highly insulting. Are you saying we should lie to people rather than just be honest? Are you saying you can't think of anything else to say other than that? Seriously?
You were the one who said (and I quote) we respond, "God works in mysterious ways." (end of quote)
Now last time I heard WE means you're including yourself, right?
Trust me, I would never say that to anyone either. I know what it's like to lose a loved one and I didn't want any words of consolation. I just wanted people to lend me an ear and to be there for me. In my opinion, silence is underrated. In any case, it's best to say:
I can't imagine what you're going through but I'm here for you.
Well said, Klara.
Science studies reality and does a damn good job of it. Some believers diss science and they're really only living in a delusion (their own limiting interpretation of the Bible).
Failed "prayer" is usually an emotional "wish," and that doesn't produce squat.
True prayer is superior to reality (outside the realm of science).
We have a dual nature. Most people (especially like Troubled, Earnesto and the rest of the sarcasm gang) can only see the physical (Homo sapiens). Many of us, however, can see beyond the physical. The non-physical, spiritual and immortal source of creation within us is the true self. This is what is important. This is what is capable of all manner of miracle through the Father. This is where prayer needs to come from. The body can't go to first base on prayer. The temporary shell of the body is important only as a tool until we can wake up spiritually.
Alas! Some don't want to wake up. They're having too much fun with ridicule. Sad, really.
No, what is sad is your capacity to skip over anything that doesn't suit the conclusions you arrived at.
Pray for all the worlds children to be fed tonight, and if your prayer works I will be right with you in a heartbeat.
It's all fantasy though isn't it? Your omnipotent invisible entity will do nothing.....same as always.
If religious fanatics prayers were answered I'd be dead long ago wouldn't I?
This reminds me of something i saw recently...The freedom from religion foundation has a 'make your own bumper sticker' thing going on.
A firefighter made one that said
"if prayer worked, 911 would be a church hotline"
Keep on sending those dollars overseas, i am sure some drug lord appreciates the donations
Sorry ATM. Here is proof that prayer works.
Everyone knows Jenny was a firm believer in the power of prayer.
This message is for both sides...
Has it occurred to those of you that are duking it out on theological ground that maybe it might possibly be a bit repugnant to be using sick or dying children to prove a point?
Having watched children get sick and die, I'd say it IS the point.
Many (not all, I know) religious people feel that science is some kind of plot or conspiracy or agenda to discredit religion, that it's all made up and not to be trusted. This faction is growing rapidly and gaining power in this country at a rate that startles and terrifies those of us who would like to see science stepped up to achieve progress. They see the two as being in competition and if science has to go to save their God, then so be it. This is frightening to many of us.
They push to have science removed from our schools and replaced with ancient guesses about how the world was formed, they legislate to slow scientific progress, they believe that prayer is a suitable substitute for actual treatment.
This DOES matter. Seeing one child take her last breath because prayer didn't work is enough to make the point. Enough to make this important. It would be repugnant if it wasn't true, if it was dramatized or over-stated. But this is real.
Relatively few operate under the "prayer, not medicine" type of belief system. I think the Christian Scientists do this, and they're a relatively tiny sect.
A much larger group of evangelicals pooh-pooh science, because they don't understand it and think it will undo their beliefs (they're that insecure about them), but they very, very readily use the fruits of science when it's convenient to them. You could say that about their entire set of beliefs: they choose which ones to be adamant about, as long as it doesn't cause too much trouble to them or people they care about (to hell with everyone else).
The vast majority of people who pray for their dying children do so as an adjunct to medical therapies, not as a substitute for them.
But I take your (somewhat unrelated) point that a certain strain of fundamentalists are creating an anti-science atmosphere in this country.
That's very close to what I probably should have said. However, I just want to knock heads together (figuratively) and shout "What the hell is wrong with you people? They are children, not soapboxes"
Agreed. When facing the prospect of a dying child, most people will look for solace. For many, religion provides that.
It's more than a little distasteful to tell another person how to cope with something so devastating, unless that coping mechanism actually endangers the child's health. I'm guessing that wasn't TahoeDoc's intent, though.
*sighs* I'm sure it wasn't anybody's intent here to purposely use sick kids as a soapbox. The same argument has gone on so long in the forums that there really isn't anything off limits anymore. I found this particular line of argument to be particularly offensive though.
...wait until they start accusing the other side of loving Hitler more! (trying to add a bit of levity here)
I'm sure Hitler wasn't ALL bad. Everyone's got to have a mother or pet a puppy or do at least one nice thing in their life. (playing devil's advocate) The levity is appreciated.
It happens every once in a while. Not very often, but it does happen
It was not.
I worry about the big picture of hindering science and using religion to do it.
I have a friend who recently lost her young child. I've sat with her and heard her talk about her baby being in heaven, feeling her child's spirit as a butterfly flies past, pray for peace. I sit and listen, respectful of her beliefs and feelings and comfort her the best I can. I would not take that solace away from her or anyone if it helps them.
No, actually it is posturing and trying to prove a point by using emotional bombs. It has nothing to do with wanting to change the world. Its about trying to prove the other side wrong. You can wrap it up however you want it's still pushing an agenda... for both sides.
Fine, call it an agenda then. But one I personally feel is worth the 'emotional bombs' because the stakes are so, so high. And I DO come from a place of wanting to make sure kids don't suffer and die if they don't have to. Please don't try to guess or assume what my motives are or are not (I'm actually a very nice person, LOL). But, yes, the harder people push for religion while making science the enemy, the harder I will push back.
And correct to livelonger too. The people who actually substitute prayer for medical therapies are a tiny minority. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. And the evangelicals do use science when it suits them. They don't realize though, that by jumping on the anti-science bandwagon (which many are), they are hindering their own potential cures and benefits as well. I feel this has gone far enough that if we don't put a stop to it, it will become a real threat. I don't think it's unrelated to be alarmed by the anti-science movement and point out what things would be like without the scientific advances that we've already achieved.
LOL! Proving the other side wrong? No, it is proving the other side insane, repugnant and horrifying. Yes, we want to change the world, but you are taking the position that we shouldn't.
There are 2 sides to you?
Those who support "prayer, not medicine"
Christian Scientists (85,000 worldwide)
Those who support medicine, and possibly prayer as an adjunct
That's quite a duel.
There is repugnance and horror in believing prayer can do anything for those children, but your stance is that it is also repugnant to point that repugnance and horror.
Does the belief in prayer to cure those children fall under the same freedom to believe whatever you want?
The only real science vs. religion conflicts that I see are in the way of creationism/evolution which is in no way a danger to the advancement of medicine. There are very small sects of Christianity that refuse medical treatment. Its not many, it's not even a significant percentage.
What there is a significant percentage of (at least on these forums) is below the belt punches to prove one side or the other wrong. Atheists are soulless pagans that are going to hell, Christians are ignorant puppets etc. This thread, so far, has largely followed that theme. Just using different emotional tools. And no, the "emotional bombs" in this case weren't worth it, as I don't believe we have any regular posters that are of the sects that deny treatment. There are, however, posters with sick children and those who have lost children.
Ok, fine. I tried to be nice and find middle-ground with you. But we are obviously not going to agree. And you are not going to budge on the idea that my intent was only to push an atheist agenda. Fine.
But, it's not just the denial of treatment that's a problem. There are also enough people who feel that stem-cell research should be banned (almost all on religious grounds) that research money has been withheld. Who knows how much progress would have been made in helping or curing many diseases if this hadn't been a religious debate.
People still die of HIV/AIDS in huge numbers across the globe because churches disguised as relief organizations are handing out bibles instead of condoms and medication. Millions more are born into poverty and certain suffering and starvation for the same reason.
So no, the only real science vs. religion conflicts are NOT with creationism/evolution and there are religious hindrances to medicine and medical care that are very real and lead to very devastating suffering.
Actually, I was budging. I had excluded you from the remark. Then you come back and post your agenda. Please, use whatever tactics you feel necessary to advance it on an internet forum where nobody in any related field is reading. Because proving 15 or so zealots wrong (which you never will because they...are...zealots) is worth using whatever methods you can think of.
Wrap it up in whatever pretty ribbon you want. Its still a matter of "I'm right and they are wrong"
We all have our opinions and topics we feel are important. Disagreeing about whether its important or not is one thimg. The rather haughty and condescending belittling of my opinion is probably unnecessary. Thanks for the permission to continue on my futile mission though.
Edited to add: taking a deep breath...i am not a hostile person and dont want to give that impression so ...
I believe that using the plight of suffering children is a powerful way to make the point that science needs to be helped forward, not hindered by religion. My reason is because more suffering children are the price we would pay if the current trend continues. I don't want anyone to feel that pain if they don't have to. That is my reason. Believing it and agreeing with it are different. I only ask you to believe it.
I think I understand that you are a proponent of science, but believe that sick and suffering children should be off-limits as a way to make a point. I respect that and whatever certainly valid reasons you have for feeling that way.
Can we not disagree but still not be insulting and condescending?
I didn't belittle your opinion, I questioned your motives. And we all do have the things that are important in our lives... You are currently using one of my most important to argue religion. And by doing such, you are belittling its significance.
Sorry, was adding my edit while you typed this.
We can agree certainly, and believe it or not the bulk of my comments weren't addressed at you... until the last one. I believe in science to cure the body and prayer to cure what happens to the mind when medicine fails. One reason I don't believe that the suffering of children should be used as an example lightly, is because it's too easy to sway a person on purely emotional level... by both science and religion. I have seen doctors pressure parents into bad decisions the same way I've seen religion do the same.
In addition, there are quite a few parents who have lost children who are really sensitive on how people use those tragedies. Those who haven't lost children don't really notice how often stories of those deaths are used for political reasons... How many gun control ads use pictures of slain children? How many anti-drunk driving campaigns? etc. (Not saying either of those causes are bad, just that the tactics used are insensitive, especially since many times the parents have no say in the use)
As you have probably guessed, I have my own reasons for being sensitive about the subject and I am sorry if I went overboard.
Fair enough and I understand your point. I certainly don't want to hurt or seem to demean the significance of anyone's loss. I am sorry if It came across that way. The intent (from me, at least as I can only speak for myself) is quite the opposite, actually.
Have a nice (rest of the) night.
The denial is strong in this one.
Check your facts before making such nonsensical statements in defense of your irrational beliefs.
Stem cell research. Abortion. Vaccinations. Condoms. To name a few.
Do you ever read anything at all about anything? Because you seem to be demonstrating the fact that you are indeed an ignorant puppet - fighting for Jesus.
I - of course - am a soulless pagan destined for hell - if it exists. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts. The fact that you are prepared to pretend the bible says none of the things it actually says will not change that.
I support stem cell research, I'm pro choice, and my son has a condom in his wallet. My daughter is receiving vaccinations on a delayed schedule(medical reasons not religious)
But yes, it must be my religion.
Oh wait, I am not a true christian because of that then. Oh darn maybe I am, because I don't think dead children should be used as a political platform. But I am most certainly stupid and uneducated with my two degrees. But they aren't in science so they don't count.
So yes EG, you got under my skin. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus or God or anything else. I wasn't defending Christianity or science I'm just a little touchy about sick babies. If everyone would get off their damn soapboxes long enough to maybe go out and help one instead of blaming God or Science or whatever the hell we don't agree with then maybe there wouldn't be so many of them.... But then what would we use for our examples... dilemma.
And still you deny that your religion is in conflict with science. Sorry - you are not reading your bible correctly - you are not actually a christian.
Still keep fighting for it and lying to yourself that what you promote - Christianity - is actually in conflict with science and your country is littered with court cases, and the Pope just finished telling Africa that condoms are evil and do not stop the spread of AIDS.
I don't know what religion you are actually practicing - but it certainly is not Christianity. Odd you choose to defend it so aggressively. This is why you religion causes so many conflicts - it teaches at it's core - denial of reality.
I am touchy about sick babies as well. Who isn't? That does not change the fact that the OP was pointing out the good science has done and the lack of good religion has done.
Well thank God. If I'm not Christian then can I actually post an opinion without being told its because I am a Christian that I feel that way?
Has it occurred to you, EG, that some people are actually more than their religion? That some of us live our daily lives making decisions without consulting a priest, a minister, or the Bible?
You don't think I'm a Christian? Good! Because you are actually a pretty smart guy that I would love to have a conversation with that didn't involve you telling me I was lying or stupid.
I don't care what the pope said about condoms. If he doesn't like them then he shouldn't use them. Your average African probably doesn't care what the pope said about condoms either.
And one of those degrees that don't mean anything is actually a lesser law degree Believe it or not, religious legal conflicts are really really uncommon and exist primarily on the federal level... They don't affect anything that happens on a state-to-state basis and are generally slapped down anyway. The people that bring them know they are getting slapped down and are doing it for the press.
And I don't defend Christianity, I defend my own beliefs. Which you, I'm sorry EG, have no real handle on. Which is absolutely fine I guess, you don't need to believe what I believe... but would you please stop telling me what it is.
And I'll be completely honest, when one of my children is sick I will hand them over to a doctor in a second... then I'm gonna pray like hell. No conflict whatsoever.
It's not very pleasant to have someone tell you what your beliefs...or motives...are, is it? Makes one a bit irritated.
Yes - I understand you are prepared to deny that your religion causes conflicts and - like yourself - everyone picks and chooses the bits they want to believe. This is why your beliefs are so corrosive. You are prepared to lie to me to defend them.
You are the one claiming to be a Christian. You then immediately distance yourself from all the other Christians and - what the bible says. When some one claims to be a christian - I jump to the irrational conclusion that they believe what the bible says and follow it's directions. Silly me huh? I wonder if you have actually read the bible - because you certainly don't follow it - why do you claim to be a Christian if you do not follow the tenets?
You obviously know about as much about the Pope and Africa as you do about the evidence that supports the existence of Jesus.
Keep fighting for Jesus.
Not that you are fighting or arguing or lying about anything. No siree Bob, none of that going on here. These aren't the Christians you are looking for. Move along.
Actually E.G. you said I wasn't a Christian... Why are you lying now and saying I am? Or were you lying before when you said I wasn't?
See how your lying causes so much self-conflict?
I'm done playing with you for tonight Mark. Have a good day you cute little atheist you Have fun with your imaginary little popes and imaginary little continents.
Well, his motives are VERY clear.
If you notice, he hasn't written a single hub.
He's obviously here to "share" his endless knowledge and wisdom with us all.
I am personally astounded at how well he knows me. He tells everything about myself, even stuff I never knew.
Why waste time on Hubpages, when he could rake in thousands as a psychic, or psychologist.
I mean, the guy is amazing.
Truthfully DJ he has written a lot of hubs. I thought you knew that?
Lots of people are someone else on the forums DJ. It doesn't look good to be all over Google from a religious thread, it hurts scores and is not a good money making strategy.
I have always used my own name and photo, but that is less than usual here.
What a childish come back. You say you are a christian - then do not do what the bible says so you are not a christian.
Hate to tell you - but both the pope and Africa are actually there. Sleep tight.
You're probably right, most Christians do seek medical treatment for their children, we can see that here from the many threads asking people to pray for loved ones to be cured of whatever ailment has been thrust upon them. I have yet to see a thread in which someone has asked us to pray and went on to say they were not seeking medical attention, but were relying entirely on prayer, instead.
Many here will respond back that they will indeed pray to God to save the loved ones, some will even pray for God to guide the doctors or surgeons hands.
We can also look at the many threads in which those very same believers will argue against science, not just evolution/creation, but a wide variety of topics, many having the audacity and the luxury of questioning or criticizing religious beliefs. Science and technology are evils that have only served to advance the corruption and demonetization of our spiritual and material selves.
It is this far more larger picture of the world in which that wide variety of topics plays out, not just evolution/creation and not just seeking medical attention, but the very idea of praying, worshiping and obeying a completely irrelevant and insignificant entity that has done nothing towards the advancement of curing diseases or anything else useful for thousands of years.
Scientists continue to work and believers continue to pray, despite any of the above.
Perhaps praying has just turned into an excuse for doing something useful, a way to pretend something was accomplished.
That was actually an excellent post IMHO.
I've never really argued against science and I am sometimes frustrated by those who do. As you've mentioned before, I am a "cherry picker" (as I think most Christians are at their base but specifically those in my "denomination") As such, it never really bothered me to accept a scientific answer rather than a religious one.
Quite honestly, I don't believe that those who oppose science (on a religious basis or for whatever reason) really have any power to effect progress. They can cause a stink, but it will continue. Even if they somehow manage to roadblock a certain area in a specific country... research will continue in another. As the scientific community tends to be the one of the most technologically connected groups in the world, the roadblock would be a hiccup.
That being said, religion is actually a positive in the psychology field... wait hear me out... Psych 101 here... any patient with a strongly established faith is much easier to "cure" in therapy. (unless the religion is part of the psychological issue... but that generally falls under abnormal psych or abuse by those with the abnormal psych issues) Those who have a "healthy" relationship with religion can often use that to deal with grief, fight addiction, pull out of depression etc. Is it a crutch... possibly... but I don't see a problem with it.
As far as prayer being used to pretend something useful is done. Possibly, but often those who praying are doing such because there is really nothing they CAN do. In that case, I'd rather be praying than sobbing.
Then, you can probably easily see why people who are not Christians would be upset or insulted when Christians evangelize and then "cherry pick" the Bible when it suits their purpose.
If God wanted Christians to cherry pick the Bible, would he have given commands?
http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/ … mmands.php
Yes and no. I think its the view that matters, not what may or may not have made someone feel that way.
I don't take every single thing the bible says literally. There are some who do, I guess. Although they are extremely few. I've said before, there are people who search for answers and those who search for sources to back the answers they already believe.
I don't agree with evangelical Christians on a lot of things. *shrugs* Some things I do. Is it offensive when they tell me I am going to hell... no. Mainly because I don't believe in hell. If they say killing is wrong, then I absolutely agree.
The point being, it doesn't matter if they got their opinion from the bible, science, a talking pink unicorn or a bowl of pasta. Or, if it simply how they feel from life experience or personality. It's their opinion. It doesn't bother me any more if they are preaching it from a bible or dear Abby. I'll agree or disagree based on my own feelings on the matter.
Sorry Melissa, but I've just come off a one week ban. The problem with embracing some opinions from the Bible and not contradicts the very word of God. I can see people gleaning their opinions from a variety of sources, but to do so and then state they are a member of a particular group who are supposed to get their opinions from a single source is hypocritical.
Since the mods here NEVER respond to inquiries, I contacted someone in the Hubpages organization directly and asked some general questions about how this site is run. Apparently, you can get banned not just for making personal insults but also if a "number of reports about a member flags them". In other words, you can get banned just because others gang up on you, which is what happened to me.
Science doesn't even matter, its not even important. Pharmaceuticals are not important, as Gods way of healing comes from nature: roots and herbs, healthy food, etc... mans ways do a poor job of copying what God has already supplied.
It doesn't matter how far away any of the planets or stars are, it doesn't matter that we landed a person on the moon, or we know the composite make up of jupiter.. people still go to work everyday and struggle to pay bills.
If science found a planet made of gold the ones who control that aspect of life would mine it to a pebble and there would still be starving children in the world and people would still have to go to work each day...
It hardly matters that we can damn rivers and create hydro with nuclear energy.. God endorses solar engery.
-Biology is cool, but unless it saves lives, i cannot at the moment think of its use other than to fascinate people with what God has created
-Psychology doesn't matter, however pertinent it may be to a person before Christ enters their life, it becomes entirely redundant after salvation, because christ heals and changes lives.
-Horticulture is good because christ made it first and it is very good. GM foods are terrible.
Only things that pertain to mercy are important. Now there is food for thought.
And you... Usually you just make me want to be an atheist. Now you make me want to give up herbology too. Go now into the woods that God made. Take not with you your computers, or soap, or any type of medication. Just your self rightousness. Rip from your back the textiles of man. Care not about such things as electricity and running water. Throw down the evil steel that has been ripped from Gods rocks.
I'm sure you will have a chance to speak with your God very shortly.
Yet, for centuries, mankind has been ravaged with all sorts of ailments while the Church engaged in leeches and bloodletting. God supplied, indeed.
Yes, those things matter because you rely on them every day to survive, you rely entirely on the efforts of what science has given you. Yes, people will still go to work, pay bills and struggle with starvation, we have taken note of your Gods supplies in that regard and are doing everything we can to fix it. Unfortunately, due to the Church having stifled scientific research for many years, we are way behind in our efforts.
That is very funny, almost a blowing-coffee-through-the-nose kind of funny.
Told you did He?
Funny, no matter how distant or defeating topics such as biology, psychology and horticulture are to religious beliefs, they continuously get dragged back in.
I guess i should have typed this sentence in caps
ONLY THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO MERCY ARE IMPORTANT.
Hydro is important but Gods way is solar power.. I did not say electricity was UNimportant. It does pertain to mercy.
Sheesh.. can't even a simple post be understood
What does mercy have to do with you dragging science back in the religious fray?
It was understood, you said God prefers solar power, did He tell you that Himself?
hahahaha.. perhaps you haven't seen that big ball up in the sky during the daytime and speaking of science, "the sun" has a huge effect on how things grow - not people or i'd put ya outside more often . Common sense told me God has used the sun to energize the planet.
Mercy has everything to do with what the sciences create and how the sciences are to be used and with what those sciences do.
Hitler with his church buddies.
Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity."
If there is no God, then prayer is foolish.
Nothing more than an exercise in futility.
Pray? What for? Who to?
If God does exist, then prayer is directed at Him, not "nothing".
If He can't/won't answer, why bother? If He's impotent, then He's NOT really God.
If God IS, who He says He is, and we follow His instructions for prayer, He WILL answer.
Just because some of us don't get answers the way we want/expect, is no reflection on God, but rather on us.
Without faith, praying is useless, anyway. So, if you're faithless, don't bother.
Praying is useless dj. The very fact that you think you can ask this Invisible Super Being to perform majik on demand throws serious doubts about your mental health.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts - it teaches you to be lazy and do nothing for your fellow man.
Sadly - your praying is more than just an exercise in futility - it prevents you from doing real things with real, positive results.
I recon you should charge big bucks for your advice.
You seem to know me ever so well.
I mean, I don't even contribute positively to society, according to you.
What a miserable excuse of a human being I am.
You entirely miss a very important point while you are mooing around.
Prayer ALSO works on the human being. It softens OUR hearts, it changes OUR attitudes and bring US into closer relationship with God.
So whether every or any prayer ever gets answered by your standards is completely irrelevant. There is much more at work here than just God sending out huge waves of proof. Which, btw, if you had eyes to see the answers, you would have your proof.
I think both of you may benefit by reading or watching "The Secret", unfortunately it's not to hand so can't list more. But basically speaks of ancient knowledge such as the law of attraction. It's logical that no person could have created the heavens, it therefore adds up that there is something far greater than us, following that when a person dies we either believe they vanish "majikly" into thin air and are no longer, or they reincarnate elsewhere (I personally don't believe this is instantaneous) or that which makes sense unless you believe we just magically come to be and there's no process involved -To come from a place while the body or vessel we will use is built. So to come from a place elsewhere we eventually go back to. This includes the aim to learn which without there's little point in coming in the first place just to vanish again.
So prayer is a request to that higher/est power to bring that for us, not that we deserve it but need it to go on. Though the picture on the right is a copy, so doesn't really tell the thousand words that it should. But if the prayer practitioner was indeed given his 'robe' by 'University from God' and is as competent as the medics are supposed to be then an interview will most likely show how prayer may've helped those people deal with their problems. It was the medics that gave out the ruddy cruches in the first place!!!!
The second point. The sun is warmth. Warmth is knowing that a problem, illness or disability is not a message from God. Neither is good fortune, it's just life. But warmth is love. And now I must give this forum the cold shoulder as I have some work to do.
What do you reckon DJ... a billion prayers a day from religionists a fair estimate?
The planet should be bursting at the seems with warm beds and food.
Just where would those beds come from?
Last time I checked, they cost money.
Oh, but a lot of Atheists don't give money to "religionists", because they are corrupted.
Oh well, we'll keep doing what we can.
Now what makes you think religionists are all about nothing? We go out of our way to help others in every situation we encounter. Our church notifies of us good quality organizations and viable needs around the world that money is shipped off too. Last christmas i bought 10 rabbits and 3 goats for people in africa. In somalia there is huge need right now.... you doing anything about that...or did you spend way too much time thinking up those short unweighty, criticisms for all of us to chuckle over.
Rubbish. You just spread hatred and conflict. please keep your holier than thou nonsense to yourself cousin.
Gosh what a high opinion you have of yourself.
Look at the right hand series of pics, troubled... polio at the top... prayer... polio at the bottom.
While on the Left you have Polio at the top... science... and who at the bottom? Kids who have never been sick?
It is inferred through the use of those pics, that the polio kids were cured.. they were not.
Just as prayer did not cure those polio kids, either...
It is a joke of an attempt to use polio victims for your Leftists BS.
Right hand side same kids at the top and bottom... Left hand side different kids at the bottom.
Oh - I see,. You simply did not understand the analogy. You Right Wing Fascists rarely understand subtleties like this.
See how - Polio was eradicated by Science. No prayers were involved?
I hope that helps you understand.
I am sure you would love to chalk it up to that...
No - It is clear you were having a comprehension issue. I hope I manage to clear that up for you. Understandable you want to defend your irrational beliefs - most religionists seem to feel the need to do that.
I have not defended anything on this thread... I stated prayer has its place, and science has its place.
And then pointed out that science has not cured polio... you all seem to be upset about that lil point being put out there.
And those pictures may say something so 1 deminsional to you... but to me there are several messages in there, and one is that science cured those kids... and it did not.
You all cannot seem to accept that.
Maybe T should have used a more appropriate picture group.
Still having trouble understanding huh? Prayer is a waste of time - that is the message.Science has all-but eradicated polio. No one was saying science cured those kids. I know it is hard - just try thinking about it.
I hope you can understand that now.
No I cannot.
You ever hear of a Rorshach test... perception varies.
Simple as that.
Yes - I can see you do not understand - Sorry I was unable to clearly explain. Almost like you simply do not want to understand in order to cause a fight like your majik book tells you.
Skewed perceptions such as yours tend to be a result of self deception - especially religious self deception.
I pity you.
Keep your pity, EG.
believe me... I am not the one who needs it.
I still pity you. Reality is so beautiful - it is s shame you need to fill it with majikal nonsense. This is why you are so angry I suspect.
So are you confident that no scientist who worked on the polio immunization and no doctor or nurse who administered it ever prayed?
I am sure some of them did. I am also sure it made no difference. Irrational beliefs are pretty prevalent amongst nurses. Especially back then when the church was running many hospitals.
Are you confident that made any difference? Or are you simply defending your ridiculous beliefs again?
This is not a science versus prayer, just an example of prayer.
Years ago I lived through a violent relationship. I prayed, over and again, for him to stop. He never did, so I left before he killed me.
Now, years and years later, someone else is doing the praying. He still ain't cured.
frog - the way I understand it, the prayer for 'him to stop' should have been a prayer for yourself to have the courage to remove yourself from the situation. The 'years later' prayer can't pray for someone to be cured. One cannot pray for someone else. One might pray, in that situation, for some insight as to how to help the abuser see the light, so to speak.
I believe one can only pray or focus on oneself, we are not able to change someone else through prayer.
Many Many people go and pay lots of money to go see their favourite sports person or team. Be it football, soccer, baseball, basketball, rugby, tennis or whatever. To essentially do the same sort of thing as praying in a way. They shout, cheer, HOPE and essentially WILL their team /favourite on to win.
If people thought this sentimentr was useless they wouldn't go. If it is pointless then surely they would be stupid for doing it.
There's very little difference between this and praying to the highest power though this be unseen -no money takes place or changes hands either -unless your daft enough to send it to some 'media mouth'. Even my bible copy was handed down from prior generation! No club or cost needed. And no I'm not high on it as God/life or whatever you call it has set mwe a very difficult task!
-just food for thought before people dismiss things out of site. Big bang theory is useless without knowing what came/was, is there now and before.
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