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Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive

  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago

    If the Christian god is omnipotent then why would it need to order the murder of it's son so that it can forgive? No Christian can answer this because it is utter nonsense. But I challenge any christian to give it a try.

    1. TMMason profile image72
      TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You have already determined it cannot be answered... so you will not accept any answer given by any Christian... so why ask the question?



      More bait?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Why don't you try? Are you admitting it can not be answered because it is nonsense?

        1. TMMason profile image72
          TMMasonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Bait...

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well that's not an answer. So I gather you have nothing to say on the matter. Th bait is to get you to actually come up with a logical answer that is going to make me and others see the light. But you say : bait. as if that is some sort of answer or negates the question. Why can't you answer a straight forward and very reasonable question?

            1. Onusonus profile image87
              Onusonusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yup, looks like bait to me. You probably want to lure Christians into a "Dialogue" so you can prove to the world that we are mean and dumb.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                But surely that would be  up to you?  Can you explain why a god needs to kill his son to forgive sin or not? If you can then please do so. If not be honest about it like Seamist is.

                I see no reason to call you dumb or mean for being honest.

                If you have a logical explanation I'd love to hear it. That's it. That's all I am baiting you for.

                1. Onusonus profile image87
                  Onusonusposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I actually have a poignant and seldom heard explanation that is thought provoking and captivating. But as they say, pearls before swine!
                  Later!

                  1. earnestshub profile image89
                    earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    As one of the swine, I would like to hear your captivating explanation. smile

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    So spill it.

              2. 0
                jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                That need a proof?

        2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
          Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Trollers specialize in selling floating anchors.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Do you? lol...

        3. Kiss andTales profile image22
          Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          the question here is not bible based the word order is out of context really this is an opinion ! but if we use the right word.allow it would make more since !first I will Give you an example of a dreaded disease that needs a cure and someone qualified to give it, this cure may cost a lot  maybe so high that only a few in the world can buy it! maybe a few lives will benifit but what about the rest! this iswhat happened to all the human race  when Adam and Eve rejected Gods authority it was the first sin and they inherited death forever,and sickness old age and dearh for the poepke who would be born from them, proof we can grow old and die! I ask you  ? what is the most valuble thing in all the universe? to God himself? a first born son! a prince ! his value would be emough to pay for every one with this  dreaded disease that causes death and pain and old age! ,Gods love for us  made a payment  to give us the cure to rid us of this disease, the value of his fleshly body was enough to cover the whole human race , like a tab that can cover many people,Jesus now is in a spirit body the way he was before he took on the fleshly body, God his father  allowed his son to sleep in death   3 days and awakened him, He is still at work helping many to know the truth!.and since we have been purchased with a price we can only benifit if we accept  the truth and appreciate what he did ,God payed in yours and my behalf, his son loved the father and went willing, satan took Jesus life , he hates all who love God!  if God  wanted to kill his son he would not have to come to earth to do it!.

          1. Kiss andTales profile image22
            Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            many who have accepted this truth have themselfes become bible students!Like insurance it is a spitiual policy, that will only benifit those who appreciate what God has did for us there atr many benifits to come ! would love to tellyou the rest it is better when the bible explains it,

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well this is the problem. When you use euphemisms like: Hr paid the price for the cure of the deadly disease, you are telling me what the price is. The price is his death.

            The facts are that to forgive the massively great sin of eating a bit of fruit god wants and needs a blood sacrifice. You can colour it any way you like. You can make any excuse you like. But the fact is that at some point he had his son murdered.

            God planned it and had it carried out.

            If you have an omnipotent god it doesn't need theatrics and devices and tricks. It can do what it likes. But it needs a blood sacrifice to forgive?

            This means either your god is not omnipotent because it can do things in only one way, or it is cruel and a little sick. Take your pick.

            First off original sin is a joke. To get that upset about man kind learning the difference between good and evil is absurd. Talk about over reacting.
            Second, what happened? Yeah we all die. We still all die. There is still disease. I guess it didn't take.

            Saying he proof of the story is in the fact that we all die as it says we will is illogical. We all die, That is why someone made up the story of the fall to explain why. It is a fantasy story.

            1. Kiss andTales profile image22
              Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes you are correct we still die and get sick and have pain ! The bible points to a time when all these thing will be done away at a  appointed  time !Just like in politics just because you have won the election for post. your job starts when you take your post of office. Rev21:4 these all will pass away How did we the story of death any way though the bible or scrolls , these same scrolls tell us death will be a thing of the past! and what is Jesus doing now finding people who are future citizens of his Goverment , he was titled King of the Jews, no not just jews  today the one who listens and observe his laws are the ones that will benefit from the lords prayer! thy kingdom come ! meaning Goverment come ,rather you believe or not thats your choice ! and perhaps you are not a real person a fantasy!or perhaps you are satan himself after all satan is the the one that Question Gods motives! you act like him! so I really have nothing to say to you anymore!

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                People like you who think I act like satan because I question your god are nut balls. I think your god acts like you think your satan should act. I think you actually worship a satan, not a god and it is fooling you. lol...

                1. paradigmsearch profile image91
                  paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Jeez, leave religionists alone... Not even psychiatrists can accomplish what you are trying to do.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You have a pretty pussy cat face but man you are annoying. Just let me play with the Christians.

                    1. paradigmsearch profile image91
                      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      lol lol lol

                      Now that cracked me up. lol lol lol

                      I'll get back to you. I would, however, like for you to post your definition of "play" in this context. smile

                2. Kiss andTales profile image22
                  Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  it is satan who only questions Gods abilities and motives ! Job 1:8-9 He Question Job loyalty to God ! before that He said Genesis 3:1 ( is it really so that God said you must not eat of every fruit from the garden? )With Adam and Eve, your words committs sound just like him questioning things that should be treated with respect ! I can not respect a man that breaths like I do to live , that can use the same breath given to him  to disrespect the one who gives life to all! Yor words mean nothing to me! and I feel just stronger about my God then the way you feel about yours satan!

                  1. Cagsil profile image72
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    More scripture quoting. lol

                    1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                      Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      It is not quoting if you read the scriptures given ! perhaps thats what you rather here is quotes instead of reading it for yourself!

                  2. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    1o years? me over 30 and I know empty speech when I hear it! waste of time! on a wonderful subject! sorry we have nothing in common!

                    1. Cagsil profile image72
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Empty speech? WOW!

                      Apparently you've not learned much with your 30 years of study. That doesn't say good things for you. lol

                  3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Seems you do not understand the story of Job. And you have no idea what a satan is.Satans are a class of angel. They are the watchers and gods cops.
                    This satan was not questioning god, he was questioning and accusing Jo\b.
                    You really need to learn about Jewish myths a bit more. That's why you don't have a clue about satan.

                    1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
                      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes he was challenging and taunting Job ,but as always it was also a direct challenge to God..wink

                      The influence and power of Satan on earth is real and hes been master of temptation for quite a long time. However.

                      (Greater is He (God) that is in you-than he that is in the world) smile

                    2. Chris Neal profile image84
                      Chris Nealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      He was accusing Job as a way to get at God. To say otherwise shows that you don't understand the story either.

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              blood sacrifice
              Lets say someone is speeding down the road, cop pulls em over and gives him a 5 dollar fine. Whats the reaction to that going to be? "Big deal i can do that again". "Go ahead speed, its only 5 dollars".
              Lets say, somebody goes through life with everything given to them. Whats the down side of that? Aside from some other side effects - They won't be appreciative of all they have. In this world we need to achieve by working hard for things we cherish. When my dad made me save up for my second car, i appreciated the car i bought as opposed to the car he gave me that i wrecked.

              Blood sacrifice
              The difference between Gods nation and other nations is that people were not allowed to be sacrificed. Under the OT dispensation of Law only animals, good animals, without defect, were allowed to be sacrificed. Now today, we have to think really hard to understand what kind of a toll all that sacrificing had. The hardship to kill an animal, watch its blood be drained, to take the animal there knowing it was going to be sacrificed. In short, this type of work shows seriousness, importance and dedication: blood, sweat and tears. So God is showing his people how important and serious this business of sin is.
              IF God had said, "oh well, here's a million bucks, go have fun", we really have to ask ourselves, "whats the importance". God might even be persuaded by the frivolity of the situation to just say "awww, heck with it".

              "To get that upset about man kind learning the difference between good and evil is absurd"
                    It wasn't the learning that was upsetting, but the doing and it was the doing that separated, not the knowing. So we can say: 'To get that upset about mankind doing the evil and not the good is not absurd'. because really the whole thing with God is that sin has no opportunity to destroy.

                IF you want to interpret the bible stories in a way that doesn't make sense to you and then to ridicule them, I would like to suggest you find an interpretation that makes sense to you.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                If he didn't want them touch the tree why put it in that garden? Don't tell me a test because god already knew the results of that test before it was performed.

                Eating a fruit is not evil. To think so is absurd. Christians seem to think it was such a big sin to defy god. But without them knowing good and evil how could they know it was a sin or evil?

                The story makes no sense.

                The only way it makes sense if it didn't happen was just a story told to explain to people why childbirth seemed like a punishment and why the ground did not always give good crops and why mankind had to toil. And also how the snake lost it's legs. wink

                Of course that is isn't why any of those things are part of our lives. It is just an ancient story told by people who couldn't know better.

                But I am not interested in my interpretation of the story. I am interested in why any one would believe it is true. And that is why and what I debate.

                And what was it we were paying for with all those blood sacrifices? Not speeding tickets. At first it was just to gain a god's favor. Simple as that.
                Give it something you need to get on it's good side.

                Modern day christians have had two thousand years of apologetics to make more of all of it than there was. .

                1. emichael profile image81
                  emichaelposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok, so I've only read up to this point.

                  First and foremost, as a Christian, I would like to apologize on behalf of those believers who would rather shoot the argument dead in the water with their "you act like Satan, and I have nothing to say to you" arguments rather than have a real conversation. It's embarrassing and more than a little infuriating.

                  Why put the tree in the garden? The simple answer is free will. Without the possibility of making the wrong choice, free will does not exist. Without free will, we are just puppets. And God is not a puppet master.

                  Next. You are right. Eating fruit is not, in itself, evil, obviously. What attracted man to the forbidden act was the prospect of "becoming like God." It was pride. Because God gave us free will, if we decide we know better and want to do things our own way, we have that choice. Unfortunately, it is always the wrong one.

                  That is my opinion as a believer, and I welcome your response smile

                  1. peterxdunn profile image62
                    peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The tree: of wisdom and life, has to be in the garden because that is how it has always been portrayed in religions a lot older then Christianity and Judaism.

                    The tree 'in the midst of paradise' is 'the world tree'. the 'axis munde (axis of the mound/world'), The ancient Norse called it Ygdrasil'. Astrologically the 'axis of the Earth and Sky' is Polaris the North Star but we normally know it as part of the constellation Ursa Minor. In ancient times the little bear was the 'throne of god' or 'seat of judgment'. This was the throne of Osiris when he sat in judgment at the weighing of the heart ceremony (Maat: from where the ten commandments were plagiarized). Some depictions of winged Isis (the constellation of Virgo) show her wearing 'the throne crown upon her head.

                    The serpent depicted in Genesis is the constellation of of Draco which does partially surround Ursa Minor. The ancient Sumerians gave this constellation a name which meant 'Lord of the Good Tree'. He can still be seen today flanking the Ishtar Gate in Iraq.

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    “First and foremost, as a Christian, I would like to apologize on behalf of those believers who would rather shoot the argument dead in the water with their "you act like Satan, and I have nothing to say to you" arguments rather than have a real conversation. It's embarrassing and more than a little infuriating”
                    No worries. It is not your opinion and I don’t paint all Christians with the same brush. No need for you to feel guilt by association. Each person has to be responsible for their own thoughts and actions..

                    “Why put the tree in the garden? The simple answer is free will. Without the possibility of making the wrong choice, free will does not exist. Without free will, we are just puppets. And God is not a puppet master.”
                    I have several problems with the idea that god gave free will and this is the reason the trees were in the garden. First off there is nowhere in the OT stories where god gives free will or mentions it. Second, they could not have free will until they ate the fruit and knew what good and evil was. That is not a trivial knowledge. It means a kind of ability to discern or make moral choices. To me the story sounds like the double edged sword of coming to consciousness. People must have felt, and some still do, that knowledge is dangerous and some things should not be known.
                    Never the less, god had people that were not much more than other animals in their ability to make choices on his hands. He just made these people yet didn’t know their character? That seems odd. Some say god wanted them to eat. That raises a whole bunch of other issues but we will deal with the ones you brought up. If he didn’t want robots it was essential that we could discern difference and he had a tree for that. Without it they really could not have sinned as they were innocents no matter what they did. You don’t punish an animal for doing what comes natural, you punish only a being that makes conscious choices and knows right from wrong.
                    Lets get back to free will. I have written a hub on it and I often write about in my hubs in general. The phrase free will is meaningless. We have plenty of will but none of it is free. You make choices according to your conditioning. That includes genetic predisposition and environmental conditioning. You make choices from personal history and all choices given have a history behind them. All choices are coerced by this dynamic. Making a choice with no history behind it would be a meaningless choice that probably had nothing to do with the choice given. It’s hard to imagine what that would even look like.
                    From the story Eve did not take the fruit because she wanted to be a god, she just wanted wisdom, like god. She sees that :“the tree was to be desired to make one wise,”
                    Again this not her wanting to be god. It is her wanting to know some of what god knows. The serpent said they would know good and evil as god knows it, not that they would become gods. The serpent said they would not die, and he was telling the truth. The eating of the tree itself did not give them mortality or kill them instantly. God cursed them to die eventually as a punishment. Then of all things he removes the tree of life for had they been smart enough to eat of that would have been like god in that they would be immortal. Seems nothing god could have done about it if they had from the way he reacts.
                    But they do change and they regret eating the fruit because now they feel naked. This is an indication that it was really a story about how man first become conscious and how that consciousness is not always a good thing. For one thing you are well aware of you impeding death. Most animals are not. Ignorance is bliss.
                    This idea that god wants us to have free will is interesting. Does he really? He wants us all to come to him of our own free will but if we do not he sends us to hell to be tortured eternally. That sounds like, love me worship me or go to hell. According to many Christians the only reason for free will is so we can choose god or not. What does that say about gods character? The vanity and ego and pride?
                    When we make laws we do not say you have the free will to disobey but if you do watch out. We say you don’t have a choice. And the choice god gives is the Mafia choice: An offer you can’t refuse. Robots seems to be exactly what he wants. Wiling sheep or nothing. Why?
                    Now others say free will is why god doesn’t show up and is not present for all to see. Nonsense,. Knowing for a fact the god exists would not hinder my choice, it would give me one. Now I do not have a choice because  I cannot know whether or not a god exists.  I can’t know what it really would be like if it did. So how can I make an informed choice of whether I want to follow him or not? I may not like him if I knew for a fact he existed and was like the OT god. So I would decline to be with him and suffer his wrath. Or I’d know how great he really is and join him. Now I have to have faith in something there is no proof or evidence of and is unknown. Not much to base a choice on.
                    So if he wanted to give us the free will to follow him or not he would show up. 
                    Now again, forgive me because I can only look at these stories from the same perspective I look at any story. I can only judge the motives and characters and apologetics by the same criteria I would judge Moby Dick. But if you are a believer you have 2000 years of apologetics and church dogma to tell you what these stories mean. We are bound to have different interpretations. wink

                2. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  "Of course that is isn't why any of those things are part of our lives. It is just an ancient story told by people who couldn't know better. "
                  Modern-day non-Christians love to say stuff like that, as if our ancestors were just too, too stupid.
                  Makes you feel better though, dunnit? smile

        4. Gracie's Snipets profile image60
          Gracie's Snipetsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
          Read the King James Bible and you will find many entries on why God unselfishly gave his son that we may have our sins forgiven.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Very nice of him to so unselfishly have his son murdered. When was the last time you so loved your son that you murdered him? Fine for you lot, what about the son? I'm sure he didn't think his fathers act was so loving. Where is the love in murdering your son? I don't get it? I thought Christians were supposed to be moral people, yet you rejoice at the murder of an innocent man so you can profit from it. There is something distinctly immoral about that.

      2. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Why would you bother to ask this question?

        Anyone claiming to know what is in the mind of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god is only talking out their opposite end.

        Not to mention, almost ALL Christians ever to post on these forums, has not once made the claim to understand their own god's wisdom, words or will. They all do claim to read a book that is supposedly inspired by one, but that still doesn't mean they understand or even live accordingly.

        It's actually a shame that many people who do read the religious books that claim to be the inspired word of a god, fail to see that 99% of their actions actually are purely intolerant of others. I've spend a great many years trying to figure out why this garbage is still allowed to be taught to people. And, then realized it was all a matter of control. It grants other people the supposed power to control other people. wink Too bad those who read the book are gullible enough to not see the control factors. hmm

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The mind of their god is an open book. It's a tyrant ego maniac as created by primitive people trying to figure out what omnipotent means and failing miserably.  lol...

          Logic tells me that to oder the murder of your own son so that you can forgive some one for their trespasses against you makes you worse than a mob boss. And yet Christians think it is just the best thing ever and so full of love.

          It's like opposite world. Hate means love, murder means caring. lol... I'm not surprised none of them can explain it, it's absolute insanity.

      3. 60
        Tiredofbeingsickposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God did not order the murder of his son, man did. We are given choices everyday very rarely do we choose right. We often choose what's best for our needs. Open your heart and eyes and you will see a greater energy than your own.

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, that's interesting. Man murdered God's son and he forgave the whole of humanity even after that. Which implies he could forgive them of anything. I never looked at it from that angle. Good point.

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Make up your mind. Either your god decided to do it of man did it. You can't have it both ways. And as far as I know god planned it according to most of the major christian denominations.

          1. lizzieBoo profile image79
            lizzieBooposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus was God. It was a self sacrifice not a murder.

            1. 0
              jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sleeping for 2 nights and one day is a sacrifice?
              I'll be happy to do it for a good meal!!

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Auooch! Nails hurt! I wish I could quickly die. Don't think about the next 9 hours.

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              If Jesus was god there was no sacrifice, it was theatrics. Big deal. God pretended to kill himself and rise again. Wow. Only if Jesus was a man, not a god, can there even be a sacrifice.

        3. mom101 profile image60
          mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          tiredofbing sick said it correctly. God did not order His Son to be killed.

          Even it the Bible were just story books, IF the ones accusing had taken the time to read it, they would have known that.

          God saw the peoples needs. He saw that like today, the people were not believing in what they could not see, so therefore.....read the story.

          Many talk about God not having a human form,  again, proof they just don't read.

      4. Zabbella profile image76
        Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I read a tract once that summed it all up.  A little boy had some ants and he saw that they were in danger...he spoke to them but they would not listen...so he changed himself to their level so they could understand  him  and possibly listen to him better.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So that's why god needed to have his son murdered?

          1. Zabbella profile image76
            Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            If i believe correctly, He sent HIMSELF in human form...yes a sacrifice to save mankind.  Cause they were not listening...somewhat like the ants not listening to the boy.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              But that does not answer the question as to why it had to be a blood sacrifice.
              I can forgive without the need for one. You can too. Why would a god need one?

              What you are suggesting is that he put on a good show to make a point but it was all really just theatrics. right? Trying to get the ant's attention. Do i have that correct?

              1. Zabbella profile image76
                Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The whole (animal ) blood sacrifice was no longer needed once he did that big sacrifice.  He did get the attention of some.  but that's with anything, there are still those who don't believe.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok. I get that.  But Why blood sacrifice in the first place? That's all I am trying to get at..

                  1. Cagsil profile image72
                    Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I think I can answer that question. Jesus was supposedly here to fulfill and close the book on old laws and institute new laws. Jesus' death would be the final chapter on old laws and the last "blood" sacrifice. wink

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Ok. Fair answer. But why would a god ever need a blood sacrifice for any reason?

                  2. Zabbella profile image76
                    Zabbellaposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I would have to look that up, because it is ancient stuff. man-made religion. and from what I have heard God does not have a religious bone in his body!
                    Thank you for giving me some stuff to ponder.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You are most welcome and thank you participating. wink

            2. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Okay, let me see if I got this right. God had to come to Earth, be killed, which is a sin on humankind to begin with, so he could forgive them of another sin that they had already committed? lol lol

              Oh, that makes perfect sense. lol

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Doesn't it just? Thou shalt not kill. Not unless I tell you to (as in numbers etc) but if you kill me in the guise of my son then I can forgive you original sin, open the door to heaven, and forgive future sin if you ask real nice and are truly sorry.

                I can't think of anything more logical, can you?

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Like I said- it makes perfect sense. lol lol lol


                  NOT! lol

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It shocks me when Christians think atheists are making fun of them by repeating what they tell us.

                    1. Cagsil profile image72
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I am no longer shocked by what a religious person will say. It's come to be expected. lol

      5. AEvans profile image72
        AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        If the Christian god is omnipotent then why would it need to order the murder of it's son so that it can forgive? No Christian can answer this because it is utter nonsense. But I challenge any christian to give it a try.



        I will try, keep in mind each Christian including myself may have a different opinion. Based on my understanding and what I have read directly from the Bible.

        Jesus is God they are not separate entities so that throws out the Trinity. God sacrificed himself to take our punishment for our sins.

        John 1 vs. 1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
        --John 1:1-4, 14

        God also gave man 'free will' so man is the one who murdered, it surely was not God. There are many who believe that God was always Good and kind. There are many verses where God is not completely omnipresent nor merciful and kind.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ok but if god planned it he wasn't going to hang himself on a tree right? He needed pawns to move around. So if we murdered him he asked for it and we did what he wanted. The ones who did it should be sainted in t hat case.

          And still it does not explain why a god couldn't just forgive without the theatrics.

          1. AEvans profile image72
            AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Because it wasn't in God's plan. He had to show suffering and pain in order for us to understand the meaning of his love. If we did not see and feel pain, how would we know it? If God did not give all mankind free-will how would we be able to make our own decisions? God gives all of us choices, we can decide right from wrong. Man is only as smart as what God has given him. What gives us the mind to think? What gives us air to breathe? The bible was written thousand of years ago, it is only a tool for us to understand how we should live. All of us make choices to believe or not to believe. Because a person does not believe, does not make them anyone different then myself.smile

            God did not ask to be murdered have we forgotten Satan in the mix? A person's mind is very complex therefore; they were not lead by God. They were lead by there own Free-Will and what was bestowed upon them in there minds.

            1. wilmiers77 profile image60
              wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Beautiful! Usefully stated.

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well that is the usual explanation but it doesn't wash. I am sure a god could let you know it loves you without showing you pain. It's a little barbaric don't you think? You don't send your kids out to be beaten so they can know the difference between your love and other people's abuse. 

              I'm sorry, but like the robot analogy this argument is not logical. It does not follow that we need to know pain to know god loves us.

              1. AEvans profile image72
                AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The misconception of God is that he is always so Wonderful! He is not always nice. God also punishes and ordered thousands to be killed. Barbaric or not the perception of him being loving all of the time is wrong. Wouldn't you think, that if you are receiving the same answer from so many, that it is fact? The exact word is in the Bible so maybe you should pray and ask God for the answer.


                wilmiers77 has the perfect analogy, you should go question your boss with his decisions. None of us know why God decided what he does, but those of us who do believe respect his decisions. Why? Because he is the boss. smile

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I think your characterization of this god is right on. But I don't think I will prey to it. For one thing if it were real I wouldn't like it very much nor find much a reason to worship it. But I think it is likely a myth. Good thing too.

                  But you perspective is not unlike the Jewish perspective which I have always thought is a little more rational than the Christian perspective of this god, based on the bible.

                  1. AEvans profile image72
                    AEvansposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    All of us have our own beliefs. That is what makes our world so wonderful. I respect your even if you do not believe and I am glad you have the same respect.Understanding the Bible can be complicated because it can be contradicting, but I know there is God and I am blessed that he is there for me. It is o.k. if others do not have the same belief system, I think that all of us learn from each other. smile

                    I also do know God isn't a myth and our world was beautifully designed, nothing could do that but God. But that is my own opinion, just like so many others. smile

                    One last thing. When that little person is created inside of you, that is not created from a theory, it is a beautiful miracle created by God. smile

                    1. 59
                      Rabgixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Can you prove this?

                      Also, conception, pregnancy, and childbirth aren't theories. Where'd you get that?

                2. wilmiers77 profile image60
                  wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Amen AEvans!!!

      6. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I would say, Jesus was not killed just so that God could forgive.
        Lets look at this for a second and see what we get.
        According to the Bible, Jesus was the word of God made flesh. So a Human form of part of God. Jesus was said to have fulfill the laws (covenant) not break it. By this thought, Jesus took on all requirements of the Old Laws and they died with him, only to be resurrected in the form of the New covenant. God was symbolically killing his Old Covenant (His word),which only applied to the Hebrews and resurrecting a New Covenant by which all nations could be freed of sins. With his sacrifice of the Old Laws, animal sacrifices were no longer required for forgiveness of sins, restrictive dietary laws were no longer required, the only new requirements are Love your God with all of your Heart, Soul and Mind and to Love your neighbor as yourself. Salvation or forgiveness of sin can now be found through repentance instead of through animal sacrifice. God didn't sacrifice his son, God sacrificed a portion of himself, his word became flesh to experience the flaws of man, and by this, when sacrificed of himself afforded forgiveness for all by repentance only. Jesus dying on the cross was nothing more than God absolving his Old Covenant and creating a New Covenant that included all nations. If God didn't sacrifice this of himself, he would have broken his covenant with the Hebrew People. With this sacrifice, he was able to create a new covenant, without breaking the old one.

        This is just one view. Maybe it is right, maybe it isn't.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Not bad. wink But it still doesn't make a lot of sense. A god could just forgive without breaking any covenant, He didn't have to sacrifice himself to himself did he?

          To me it sounds like theatrics more than anything. But you are the first one to come up with anything at all so you are to be commended. wink

          1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't claim the title of Christian. But, I would say, it was more of a symbolic nature than anything else. At the time the bible was written, a covenant or formal agreement between two parties was held to the highest standard and considered very binding. A blood sacrifice was man's way of appeasing the God(s). So the sacrifice of Jesus (God sacrificing himself) to create a New Covenant with all people, would have been the best way, for man in those times, to show the binding nature of the New Covenant. In other words, God was willing to sacrifice of himself for the greater good of man to show his commitment to the New Covenant he was offering to man. This removes the "man created animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sin" and in its place, the removal of sin by repentance. Man is no longer responsible for the payment of sacrificing for sin and the Priest is no longer needed as a median between God and man. Man can now directly speak to God and repent for his own forgiveness of his sins

          2. wilmiers77 profile image60
            wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Slarty,

            Correct me if I am wrong. You are arguing that God, if omnipotent, could create or change at any instant any situation without requiring His Son to die. If God did so, than we would be his puppets, and not free moral agents who have all choosen to love Him.

            Would you desire a beautiful robot for a wife as compared to having a beautiful wife who loves you from her free will. You could change the robot's program at any time; why work to hopeless despair trying to convince your beautiful wife to change her mind to what you desire? I would desire her freely given love as opposed to divorce.

            1. lone77star profile image91
              lone77starposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Beautiful analogy, @wilmiers77

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How in the world would we be his puppets? That does not follow.

              Your point is correct. I want a wife who loves me out of her free will so to speak, though I don't believe in free will as such. But that aside, how does god just forgiving us without this sacrifice make us robots? Would you not love him even though he didn't kill Jesus?

              I don't see the sense in that kind of reasoning. Do you?

              I can only make an informed choice whether to love god if I know a god exists. If I make a commitment to love it even though it may not exist what sort of sense would that make?  How does that make it my free will choice?

              You are betting that it will give you ever lasting life and that is why you love it. You can not know it exists. So you are not making a free will choice at all, you are placing a bet.

              No, my friend. The robot analogy is not a logical argument. It does not follow.

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Slarty,
                the operative word is "His" puppets. As far as we are concerned it's lights, camera, and action! We start during the same crap. It makes much sense that if God continually intervene into our or my affairs by changing situations and outcomes, then I am His puppet to manipulate as He please. Where is our free moral agency?

                I feel that you are missing the phenomenom of "Nowness", actual experience, when it comes to believing in God thru Christ Jesus. The experience of the Holy Spirit is self confirming NOW. It is not a bet nor gamble from that instant of inception, lasting thru the rest of your life; brother, you know!!!

                1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                  wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Slarty,

                  One more comment, we can't question the decisions of God; only He knows how He plans to make us eternal beings. I advise that you don't question His demand that His Son die for our sins. Believe me, no one has a better idea.

                  You probably expect this analogy; so, here it comes. In the morning go straight to your boss's office and question a few of his decisions.

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  But how is knowing a god exists going to take your freedom from you? It is not. How is it interfering with your choices? it isn't.

                  As for questioning god, I can't because it probably does not exist. It is a story. A myth.

                  Now, I did not ask to be born. So I think I am owed the opportunity to ask questions of a god that supposedly made me against my will and then demands I love and worship it. or go to hell. I can quite a job and tell the boss what go do with him or herself. If I have free will why would god stop me from doing the same?

                  But you can not opt out, can you? So where is the free will?

                  I'm glad it is all probably just a myth. Your god sounds like a bit of a tyrant. And I do not want eternal life, by the way. Am I free to decide that for myself?

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Slarty,

                    You can decide to jump off a tall building. What an exercise in free will that would be. But, lets back up. "Be still and know that I am God." is biblical scripture. One can continually think of the opposing views of God; becoming consummed into nothingness without any meaning to life other than what you see, and what you see is temporary and saying goodbye always. What one can't see is eternal. The invisible has framed that what is visible.

                    Stop! Lets focus on "NOWNESS". Remember me stating that God's Spirit is self confirming when one receives the Holy Spirit who is possessed by Jesus, the Son of God. The Holy Spirit is real and millions upon millions has received the Holy Spirit during the history of men. I reiterate by saying again that when one receives the Holy Spirit, than one has confirmation of God, Jesus, and the truth of the word of God at that moment for REAL.

                    Also, one can be filled by the Holy Spirit when you get a feeling and begin to see the light, and move toward it in your mind the same as if you saw a beautiful women and begin to fall in love with her at first sight. The capacity has been established you only have to fill in the details to get her for yourself. Your mind would move toward any and all things that would make you successfully win her love and possess her as your wife.

                    The comforter, Holy Spirit, confirms God, confirms Jesus, and confirms the truth of the Word Of God in the now; at that moment of inception.

                    Simply ask Jesus to come into your life if he is real and be still.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I appreciate your opinion but none of this is news to me. The problem is: 1 we are way off topic. 2 I am sure  can convince myself that Jesus is with me. I used to be a Christian. But I have a good imagination like many people do. I have learned not to try to convince myself of anything anymore.

                      What you say is all the standard line. You have convinced yourself of it. But in point of fact you can not know any of it to be true. It is just something you believe. It is speculation.

                      I do not speculate and take it as fact. I can't do that.

                      If a god wants me it knows how and where to find me. wink

          3. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            A few thoughts on various comments:
            yah can't just break a covenant, its a covenant. How would God just break this covenant? A booming voice out of the heavens? That is going to be one long speech! Also it omits the healing of people and many miracles and might even make for a short book and i am sure that God enjoyed his lifetime here on earth even the cross as well. We look at the cross as a cruel and inhuman thing, but God was on that cross, in flesh yes, bleeding etc, yep, but since God knew the outcome He went to the cross with confidence and joy. I bet he looked forward to the Resurrection. It was his plan all along. Man was asked to sacrifice animals but God knew: Isaiah 53:5   He would be wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace would be upon him; and by his whippings we would be healed.  (paraphrased) and why did he do this? John 3:16 of course.
            The covenant had to be fulfilled, the OT points to it, states it and so therefore, there had to be a sacrifice to end all sacrifice and God was the One to do it. Pretty efficient, i think. He didn't steal somebodies child, he created his own and had a willing female to incubate it. He lived in the body, did all that cool stuff and then went to the cross, when nobody asked him to, and suffered much bodily, and gave up his life and was buried and rose again (proving the resurrection to many eyewitnesses). A feat that surely and completely screams out, Gods love for humans.

            nobody asks to be born... we are born as babies - knowing nothing - then we grow up into ourselves, which is nothing more than chemicals, neuro pathways, muscles, bone and flesh  and thought and since we, being grown up have this concept of 'I' we inevitably ask the question "why was i born", which is nothing more than the end product of growing up coupled with an awareness of self.

            Free will is misunderstood. There is only one free will action; everything else can go into the category of decisions. The free will action that God is concerned with is: will we accept his son and believe in God who sent him. That's it. This act of free will is paramount in the designs of God, as He never forces us to do anything.
            Now as to decisions... what clothes will i wear, where will i go today, what will i do, ham or cheese sandwich.. these are all daily decisions that everybody makes, many of these are not an example of free will at all, some decisions, necessity dictates; the gas gauge is on E, the front door needs a fix, I'm hungry. This is not free will but choices or decisions.  Decisions vary depending on whether  a person has God in their life or not. To the Christian, God is invited into 90% of their daily affairs and when God is trying to teach them something, God is moving things around in their life to manipulate their lives so He can accomplish what He wants to do. In that sense there is no free wil with God in our life but we are able to make choices and to a certain extent we are puppets, so long as we keep inviting God into our lives, He will be faithful to perform a good work in us unto our salvation. That's my take on it, roughly typed of course.

            Faith is necessary and it is christian proof of afterlife. If there is no afterlife what need is there for faith? Why does God lean so heavily upon faith? Because it will be a tool in the afterlife. Faith is also, when directed toward a person, a form of love, appreciation, respect. If you have faith in something i say, it is because you know i mean what i say. The less i say, the more faith required. Faith in the character of the person who told you, brings about love, eventually. A person cannot be forced to love or even obey, but faith, brings this connection into existence it can be and is a byproduct of knowing experientially what God is like.
            Faith is not dangerous but its evidence depends on what is believed. Your example of islam is correct. That is dangerous, but faith in Christ, is not the same way. Faith that the lightbulb will turn on when the switch is flicked is not dangerous. We cannot say we do not have faith in the switch or we will not flick the switch at all. A faulty switch seldom gets flicked.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes but this is a god. It supposedly can do anything. So you saying it can not break it's covenant is meaningless. It does what it pleases. And if wanted to modify the covenant as it has done before it could have done that too. Who was going to stop it? After all, not all the Jews agreed to it. It is not like they all sat down with god and hacked out a covenant.

              God said this is the way it's gonna be and they had no say.

              So to me if god seems cruel he is cruel. Because he should be able to do any thing any way he wants. You Christians seem to limit your god or make excuses for its behaviour. Evil is good if it done by god. Not only good, it is wonderful.

              That's a little sick and twisted as far as I am concerned. Don't you agree?

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                An honest God cannot just break its promises. The reason God is so trustworthy is that he will not break his promises.
                There is a much bigger picture that has been told to you about this crucifixion situation. There is a much bigger picture about the life of Jesus Christ. This bigger picture is what it is all about.
                So much good was done by jesus walking around doing Gods will. So much was done through his death. So much more by his resurrection.
                To just look at one small portion of this amazing and incredible feat does not do justice, actually, it does more harm than good.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  What great feat? A god dies, leaves his worldly body and ends up in heaven alive. Not hard to do for a god. What amazing things happened? What good did it really all do?

                  The ideas that he is the focus of like love each other etc, that did good. But those were not just his words. It was a new idea people were already talking about in other religions and philosophies of the time. The Greek Cynics, for example. They were a kind of  ancient hippy movement.

                  Catholic monks were even modeled after them to a certain extent. The vows of poverty, the wardrobe.

                  The Jesus story is really a focal point. In the Jewish tradition as well as others in the region, love was for family, not strangers. So the Jews that became Christians were taking on all these new ideas about how to think about others and how to treat others.

                  That is what good the story did. But it had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. In fact in the earliest writing there is no mention of his death.

                  No, my friend. His death gave him martyrdom and that's about it.  That is assuming the story is true. Muslims claim it isn't and there is not much extra biblical evidence that he even died.

                  Funny because Rome was good at keeping records.

                  But be that as it may, working within the myth, there was no reason for him to die. What did a so called resurrection actually achieve? Again, not a big feat for a god that supposedly created the world to pull off. You make way too much of it. If Jesus was a god it was just theatrics.

        2. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nicely said

      7. Greek One profile image81
        Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God doesn't NEED to do anything, and God didn't ORDER anyone to kill Jesus

        As to why the events of the crucifixion took place, or why anything else has ever taken place in the particular manner which they have taken place, only God himself can answer that...

        and although there are some very wise Hubbers here, only one of two of them have claimed to be divine, as far as I know.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So you don't know, no one can and it's ok with you that an innocent man had to die so you could live forever? You don't want to take responsibility for your own sin? No one is claiming to be divine, no one can know the mind of god but you know somehow that he didn't order his sons death? Is all of that correct?

          1. A.S.K.Preacher profile image61
            A.S.K.Preacherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Been out for a while. Will only be in and out at random. Sorry to be so. I would really enjoy getting into this. Yes it is OK with those who understand. We cannot be saved by our own actions. When the best of persons stands before a HOLY God they will have nothing to offer Him.
            He is the giver of life. We owe Him - honor respect love. His death was a free gift. He already knew He was going to have to do this in order to save His creation.
            What you are not comprehending is Jesus is God. He is God - the Son. There is God - the Father and God - The Holy Spirit.
            It seems to me those who think as you do want to blame someone. To make that which is very special - somehow demeaning, and to bear our sins was demeaning.
            The Bible says He despised the shame of the cross but has joy because some might be saved. Those who end up in hell - will go there because they "refused to believe the truth.
            We cannot save ourselves. We need a Lord and Savior.
            Do YOU know where to do after death? Do you really know, for sure, what happens after death? Don't you think you should search out what the truth is?
            Yes there are many beliefs, but Jesus is the only God that sacrificed Himself for His creation. No other religion claims that. When you delve into other religions dieties they are self centered. I do not mean that in a bad way - it is just how it is.
            That is the sign of a true God. That is the God I want to serve and it is the God I believe in. This God thought about His creation first. Kind of like a nurturing mother would give up her life for her child. Like a loving husband would give up his life for his wife. That is representative of the God I seek.

      8. nightwork4 profile image60
        nightwork4posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        the irony behind this tale is that if god is what they say he is, then he already new jesus would be killed, so why waste the time making a son to be killed. now if this story was never told, how many people would actually think god was so great?just like if heaven was never invented and you were told to worship god your whole life , then when you die , it's over and your gone, how many people would be religious? i'm thinking very few. it's all about giving religion the power to control.

        1. wilmiers77 profile image60
          wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Slarty,

          Jesus had volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb for our redemption. It was to save sinful man. No man knows how to develop an eternal being so what's up with your questioning God?

          Christians doesn't exercise power over anyone. One must accept solely on his/her own volistion; has worked for billions over time.

          I repeat,receiving God's Holy Spirit is self confirming "Now"! You receive; you know. Don't receive; won't believe.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I know that is what they teach you, Wilmiers 77. But it is utter nonsense,

            Immorality is immorality whether it comes from a human or a god. Demanding a blood sacrifice in the first place is immoral. Accepting the murder of an innocent person so you can live for ever is also immoral. Putting poison trees in a child's play pen is immoral. Knowingly creating evil is immoral. Creating man kind to have to kill in order to eat and survive is immoral. Our food has to suffer which is immoral. Punishing generations for the sin of one pair is immoral and unjust. In fact if a god created all this with intent every aspect of it is immoral. Not just your god, any conscious god

            As for christianity itself, of course it tries to have power over everyone. What do you thin the inquisitions were all about and what do you think the current political situation in the US is all about?

            Again, I could probably talk myself in to feeling gods holy spirit if I wanted to. Like you and most humans I have a good imagination. But if a god existed I wouldn't have to. I would just feel it.

            This nonsense about having to first believe and then I will get proof is called confirmation bias. Look that up please if you aren't sure what it means. To me it is an excuse for the fact that your god doesn't exist. That is why you have to believe first. If it existed you would know and not have to believe.

            As for questioning god, of course I would. I am not a sheep that follows any one blindly. But as it happens I don't believe your god exists so I am questioning you, the believers. I can't question something that isn't there. Besides, isn't it written in the bible to knock and the door shall be opened? How can I knock without knocking? lol...

            So again. Were a god to exist I would suspect that I would just know it. That would not take away any of my will, free or not. If I don't know it and a god wants to get hold of me it knows where I am.

      9. MickeySr profile image87
        MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        What do you propose as a superior or more reasonable solution? Working within the framework of your question, that God is omnipotent and man requires forgiveness, what do you have in mind that God should have done that suggests to you the sacrifice of Jesus was "utter nonsense"?

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Just forgive. What is so hard about that? I can forgive those who do me wrong. You can too. But god needs a blood sacrifice? Utter nonsense.,

          1. wilmiers77 profile image60
            wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            eerrr Slarty, Wow man, you have much more faith in human beings than I do. How would you bring peace for this world? What about criminals; how would you lower crime?

            I must stop by your last response, and ask you what social ordering do you prescribe that "just forgiving" would solve all social ills?

            How do you suppose the universe came into being? I am not really smart; I am a dummy that depends on the Lord Jesus, but I have heard that if the five forces in nature, strong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravity, electro, and magnitism, should vary by 1/10,000 of its value, than we would not be here. Do you think that this accidently happened or came about by randomness?

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Wow. To think a murder solves crimes is insanity, don't you think? Let's see. What has god offered you? You have sinned and you must pay. But look, you sinned so bad you can't pay. So god will murder his son and thereby put your sin on him. Him he can forgive and thereby forgive you. if that is not insanity I don't know what is.

              I said if god wants to forgive then that's all he would have to have done. If he wanted to make you pay then he could have made you pay in some way. Making someone else pay for you is immoral. It is like saying to someone, you take the rap for me for the crime I committed and I will pay your family a million dollars, and having that arranged by the state. and made legal and binding.

              It doesn't work that way. You have payment and forgiveness mixed up. How can a person pay for killing some one? They can not. So we send them to jail for 20 years or we kill them. Victims often find it in themselves to forgive. In fact that is one thing Christians are taught to do I think.

              So first off let's get straight what god was forgiving. It was original sin. That was the big crime we could not pay for and that christians say he had shut heaven down to us for.

              Now I don't know about you but our society does not hold all the generations of a criminals family to account for their acts. That would be grossly unfair. But your god does.

              So I sinned at birth without doing anything. What a crock. Then he says he says since we can't pay we have to kill his son and then believe in him and then he can forgive us? Please!!

              If god thought he wanted to forgive original sin then that's all he had to do. Not one thing more. This middle man who gets killed so god can forgive is out of this world absurdity. I''m surprised you just don't get that.

              As for all the wonderful things you mentioned coming in to being, no not by chance and not by randomness. By cause and effect and the nature of energy/mass.

              There is no god required. It all seems to work very well without one.  But no, life is not random chance, it is order. I've written many hubs on that subject.

              I don't mind thinking of nature as god. But it sure is not the christian god.

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Slarty, correct me if I am wrong, you believe that the sun is going to raise tomorrow. I can't image anyone not having faith in anything.

                Slarty, us born again Christians have dropped our tools in the natural sense because we have found it, and need no logic or science, only knowledge of the Word of God. Do we believe in science? A resounding Yes! Do we benefit" Yes!! What you think that is not in your future, we have. "NOWNESS". God Is. We simply asked that Jesus, the Son of God, come into our life and counsel us. Actually it counsel each person because the Lord Jesus must be accepted by that person.

                Wow, I see the firmament on display daily supporting us. If I awoken in darkness only with my conscience as a blind person without input from the external, than and only than could I not have faith in anything. Now, It is too impossible for me to believe as you do; I see to many consistences and patterns.

                So, you won't think out gunning a serial killer doesn't stop other murders?

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No. The sun will rise tomorrow or not. The likely hood that it will is pretty darn good knowing what we know about it, but it is not absolute. Something we do not know anything about could put it out in five minutes from now. Or it could expand in to a red giant and take the planet with it in a ball of fire. That will likely happen in a few billion years.

                  Seriously, If it is not a fact I do not believe it or in it. There is no need to. And there is no need to believe in a fact, it just is one.

                  You have come to the same conclusion through faith. The rest of you post says exactly that. Absolute faith makes you convinced there is a god. It is a fact as far as you are concerned. But not one based on reason or proof  or logic. It is fully based on faith. I get that. I really do.

                  I know science and see the wonders of the world the same way but I see it all point to nature itself. I see too many contradictions and too much irrationality in Christianity and it's god. I can not believe it exists for those reasons. As for patterns, I wrote a book about the patterns of existence. I see them too.

                  So we have come to similar conclusions from opposite ends. The only real difference is that to you god is a conscious being. To me it is an unconscious process.

                  As for killers, of course doing away with them prevents more crime. So why is satan supposedly still around? lol... God is not doing is job.

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Slarty,

                    You haven't experienced confirmation in the NOW by God's Holy Spirit. I say over and over it's REAL.

                    We live in a fallen world (sinful); the norm is not all-is-well until it is perturbed by evil religion.

                    All objective truths doesn't come from nor point toward nature; it is only our mental and physical support. In this fallen world objective truth mostly is the quest for power by individual(s).

                    Even in the great books, man's need for an extentialistic vision is repeated over and over. Such philosophical minds as Aristotle derived the same. And, stated furtherly that for cause and effect first cause must be God. Albert Einstein stated that his life works is to know the after thoughts of God.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You say that but as I told you, I'm sure you can talk yourself in to believing the holy spirit is in you even it is just your imagination. Imagination is a powerful thing.

                      I do not see the world as fallen anything, I see it as natural process. I don't see it as evil. It is evolving.

                      Man thinks we need something higher to be out there. And there is. But it is not of necessity your version of god. Albert was making a point in a way his era could understand him. He wasn't a Christian or anything like it.. A direct quote from him tells us he was a pantheist preferring the god of Spinoza.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, and we have millions of people doing the same thing, hence our world is in the state it is in.

                  Funny how you believers love to take advantage of everything science gives us and then turn around and say you don't need it. lol

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    trouble man,

                    Some Christians are part of the scientific team with more Christian youth on the way. As a matter of fact I have a degree in science and is using my knowledge to comment on Thomas Aquinas' metaphysics of theology. Us Christians is not waiting for science to develop to the stage of creating an utopia; that may take eons. We have found the Life.

                    We have a lot of spiritual work to do.

                    1. earnestshub profile image89
                      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I do hope you're not going to comment in English!

                      That was shocking! smile

                    2. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Sorry, but I don't believe that for an instant. You are showing that without any intellectual tools, you'll make up and say anything to defend your religion. Once again, there is no need to wonder why the world is in the state it is in as a result.



                      Science isn't trying to create a utopia. If you actually knew anything about science, you would know that, too.

                      Spiritual work = lying for Jesus.

                  2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    troubled man
                    Just the way you take advantage of everything that God has given us and totally ignore him.
                    As you experience science, you stand under an apple tree and eventually an apple falls from the tree, you have faith in science, which only put a name to what God created.
                    Some people have chosen to experience God and as they do christian stuff, eventually proof reveals itself.
                    The tantric yoga person will feel times of enlightenment having performed many different positions.
                    An animal trainer will be happy when the seal performs the trick he has been teaching it.
                    Lawyers rejoice when they win the case.
                    Everything in life is experienced and thereby rejected or accepted.
                    Not all people benefit from yoga
                    Not all lawyers win their cases
                    Not all animals learn their tricks

                    Everything is a gamble as to whether it will work or not. Fixing a car engine, after the key is turned and the engine purrs then the job is done and greater faith overflows onto the next job.

                    Spiritual work is not lying for jesus it is relaying personal experience with a substantial amount of success behind it. Jesus is well documented with scripture, there are over 24,000 manuscripts of the new testament alone! 8,000 in greek. Many well preserved, both full books and partials. The OT has been faithfully recorded. For 500 yrs Alexander the Greats' biography was oral and kept firm, there are 1,000 yrs before the Illiad is written down, but Christians have documents from 2-3 yrs after Christs resurrection. Paul starts his letter writing within approx 10yrs after his damascus encounter. Myth enters into legends after all eyewitnesses are long dead, otherwise people would contradict what was being written or said and the movement would have died. The telephone game doesn't apply to the jewish culture because every third person would ask the other, am i getting it right? Lying for jesus is just another atheist ammo statement that amounts to no more than a moo from a cow. It just doesn't happen. Nobody here has purposely lied to try to convince you, maybe the stories vary slightly, maybe some just are able to put down their thoughts more accurately on the screen. Maybe some don't tell all they know because they have read their audience inept at grasping it. Perhaps the simple answer they have is enough for them. Whatever the case, lying for jesus doesn't happen. Spiritual work is getting up and pressing in after a failure, praising God when things seem dismal, trusting Him with everything, but the statement lying for jesus is only designed to start wars and conflict.
                    Kudos to all christians! who wear faith like a flag and rally to the front lines just to save a soul.

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Sorry, but after careful deliberation of your post, which seems to be a bunch of words and phrases strung together in a salad, it appears to only contain a main point consisting of those three words, pretty much the bottom line.

          2. MickeySr profile image87
            MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Slarty O'Brian,

            I understand you don't believe this, but consider it as a component to an argument, don't instantly reject because it's not what you already think, evaluate the sense of it as a part of a larger idea . . . I'm not trying to persuade you that I'm right and you're wrong - I'm only trying to offer a rationale for an idea that is not your own.

            If there is a God, and if He is the God of the Bible, then God is the infinite, eternal Spirit who is the only necessary being and who created and sustains all that exists. This God does not act within the perimeters of some cosmic good, this God is not Himself a good God because He accents to some external from Himself standard that is good - what is good is good because it is what God is and how He acts. God Himself defines, by His being and works, what is good - evil is whatever is not of, by, or like God. God is the standard.

            Now, when men (or angels) have their own idea, not their own idea born of their intimacy and union with God, but their own idea discordant with God's idea, when they rebel against God's plan and purpose to follow their own scheme, they corrupt and contaminate God's creation . . . they introduce hurt and grief for others as they seek their own best interests.

            When you suggest that God deal with this by merely forgiving them, by simply pretending that no harm has been done, then you are suggesting that God (who defines what good and bad is) should treat national villainy, the organized slaughtering of a mass of women and children, as though it were no big deal - that God should just look the other way when a father pins down his weeping infant so that he can use it to satisfy his own sexual appetite. And on and on.

            Of course you can happily forgive those who do you wrong, you are just as bad as they are, you too need them to forgive you on occasion. But God, being the source and standard of good, cannot so easily 'just forgive', God cannot look the other way when evil is hurting others - as the creator and sustainer of the universe, God cannot overlook evil . . . it must be dealt with.

            To keep good the thing to celebrate and to make evil a thing to despise, to promote love and to end selfishness, God must confront, condemn, and resolve the problem of evil. So, rather than condemning evil in men He takes our evil on as if it were His own, so that rather than executing judgment  on us, God executes judgment on Himself. Good cannot let evil pass, God cannot merely look the other way, evil must be dealt with or it is simply no big deal to harm others to get what you want.

            God takes all the evil done and marks it as evil He is accountable for, and suffers the consequences in our place so that evil is not given a pass but is dealt with - and we don't like that idea, it doesn't seem a sound course to us, so we ridicule His great love and sacrifice for us and continue to shake our fist at Him and demand he do things our way.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I understand your theory very well. The Jewish idea of god is exactly that. It does what it likes and it is the standard for morality because it defines and decrees it.

              So god is not always a nice guy. He just is what he is.

              A couple of things about this hypothesis bother me.

              First off, are you Jewish? If not and you are Christian then you seem to have a different take on Christianity's god than most of your fellow Christians. They think god is all good and love and light. That satan is evil and that man kind brings evil in to the world, not god.

              But in point of fact god admits to having created evil in the Isaiah. So unless Christians are calling god or Isaiah liars, Christian rationality falls short.

              So you have no problem with god being a tyrant egomaniac if he wants to be and I don't either. If it were real I would not worship it because of that but that's just me.

              Now on to your other points. Original sin, again, was the eating a fruit of knowledge,. The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which god did not want us to have yet put in our play pen to tempt us.

              So if there is sin in the world it is clearly god's fault. He created the potential for it. Don't tell me we can mess up god's plan if god is omnipotent. That is just so much nonsense.

              Even though you admit that god did it all and he decides what is good and what is evil, you absolve god and claim we are the problem. With an omnipotent god that would not be possible, period. He sets the standards and makes things the way he wants them to be. By your own hypothesis you can't even think that him giving free will is something he didn't know the consequences of.

              So it is all god's fault, not ours. We have not sinned and we can't. If the kind of god existed that you envision it would take the blame because it already has in Isaiah. "I create light and darkness. I create good and evil. I do all these things."

              I;'m paraphrasing but it is my favorite bible passage because it shows how the Jews saw their god when they invented it. In passages where Moses is talking to god, god tells him straight out that he is the one that puts ideas in Moses head and he is the one that puts words in his mouth.

              The Christian notion that god does not interfere is not born out by the OT at all. It is a Christian construct that has no basis in the original religion.

              Moses keeps asking to be set free. But god keeps hardening the heart of Pharaoh so that he can make him understand that he is god and glorious.
              Pharaoh, of course would have had his own gods.

              But the bible is very clear. It is not Pharaoh who hardens his own heart every tine, it is god that admits to doing it. It is not a translation error. I've looked it up from Jewish sources and experts in Hebrew. God did it, not Pharaoh.

              So you have a god that takes all the blame willingly and yet Christians are not willing to take it at it's word. Well you should have done away with the OT then and called it a lie.

              We see god ordering the murder of hundreds of people in the bible. He condones slavery and incest. How else could Noah and his sons and daughters have repopulated the earth? There is no other way.

              Lot and his daughters are given special privilege and nations are born from their incestuous relationships.

              All the evils of the world are at some point committed for god in his name and according to the bible by his words. So please don't tell that if we are sinners it is not because your god wants it that way. Why else put an evil cunning snake and a poison tree in our play pen?

              Now I could go on to deconstruct Genesis for you and tell you it's real history. But we are dealing with you hypothesis as you requested.

              I did not ask to be born. I do not owe it anything were it to exist. It can kill me any time it likes and that would be fine with me. What is not fine with me is the idea that it would punish me for the massive crime of not believing it exists and not worshiping it like a puppy dog asking for more when the master hits me with his shoe.

              I do not appreciate being a pawn in the battle between god and his friend satan. I would not be on either side were either to actually exist.

              So since it is unfair for a god to create me without my consent  in to a world where he has decided I am a sinful dirt bag from birth and wants me to believe in him and kiss his ass for eternity, I want to be able to opt out. That would only be fair.

              And when I was a Christian and did believe he existed I asked him to just kill me and be done with it and erase my existence. But he didn't/.

              So unless god is much different than the Christians and Jews imagine, if it is real I want nothing to with it or it's satan. If it were to exist it would be responsible for all the atrocities of the world and to me, guilty of all crimes against it's own creation by it's own admission.

              So to me it is very lucky that   such a god obviously does not exist.

              Nature is responsible for all the atrocities in the world but not through malice. It takes a thinking being to act immorally. A process can not be immoral, it is just the way it is. But any conscious god that did this can not be forgiven.

              Now you make the argument that god is in the process of creating perfect beings of us and we are messing up it's plans.

              My problem with that is that if a god was omnipotent then it would not need a process that involves all of this. It would just be so. Since it is not just so already I have to conclude one of two things: God is not omnipotent and need this process and can not do things in any other way, or god is omnipotent, could do things any way it wants to, and thereby cruel beyond belief.

              Those are the only two options open to you.

              Now. Before you make the obvious and very old argument that my view shows someone who is very mad at god and religion because life has been bad to me or a Christian has abused me os some such thing, believe me when I tell you that is not the case.

              Life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am giving you my opinion based on what I have read in the bible and have studied all my life about theology, the same way I would give opinions about any characters in any fiction novel.

              Take this as a book review response,  I can not hate a god I don't think could possibly exist just like I can not hate any character in a fiction novel.
              I can only say were it to be true, this is what I would think about the situation.

              I don't hate religion or the people who believe in it. I love folk lore and history and people and the minds of people. I love the totality of our existence.

              There are many things I would change about this world and some of those things Christians want to change as well. So do all people, actually. Wars and strife and hate, poverty, violence against all and any people, disease,... the list goes on.

              That is why I try to get people thinking in a critical manner about their beliefs.

              1. MickeySr profile image87
                MickeySrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Slarty O'Brian,


                If you don't mind, perhaps the most productive way I can respond here is to offer brief (as I can be) & direct replies to specific points you make that I believe pertinent to advancing the discussion . . . please don't count my pointedness as abrupt rudeness - I'm just trying to move our discussion to the next useful points.

                S > It does what it likes and it is the standard for morality because it defines and decrees it. So god is not always a nice guy. <

                You son-of-a-bitch! How dare you . . .just kidding.

                You say you are very familiar with my point on this, but your response here is discordant with the implications of that very point - you can't say God is not being good, or is not a nice guy, if God is the origin and source rule of what good is and is not. When you say that God is not a nice guy, you are asserting that God is not the rule of what good is, you are. Like, God says this army should go slaughter all those people - because you don't count that to be a good thing to do you conclude that God is not, therefore, always good. But you are not the definer of what good is, the cosmos does not establish some objective good and bad - whatever it is that God is and does is what good is, so whatever He does might be misunderstood by you, might be contrary to what you think best, might appear horrifically ugly to you, but you are not the one who decides what good is so you can't rightly identify God or what He does as good or bad . . . it is God and what He does that identifies what is good or bad. This is not a handy catch-22 scenario that just magically makes everything ok no matter what - it is simply the way the creation we find ourselves in works . . . whether we 'get' it or not.

                S > . . . your fellow Christians. They think god is all good and love and light <

                . . . as I (in as much as) said previously and above, God is all and only always good and love and light - of course, it would certainly not appear so to anyone in the dark.

                S > god admits to having created evil in the Isaiah <

                The language here is not 'evil' as in wrongdoing, it is 'evil' as in troublesome things, superior translations use the English 'calamity' rather than 'evil' . . .  the text is talking about 'the rising of the sun, light and darkness, rain', etc - God is not here announcing that rape and theft were His ideas, He's saying that floods and tornadoes are not man's or an impersonal nature's doing, he's saying when it rains it's because He causes it to rain and when it doesn't rain it's because He causes it not to rain, etc. Nothing at all to do with God creating the evil that men do.

                S > if there is sin in the world it is clearly god's fault. He created the potential for it. Don't tell me we can mess up god's plan if god is omnipotent. That is just so much nonsense. <

                It is God's plan that men fell into sin, but God did not sin or cause man to sin - sin, in fact, is exactly that man did something apart from God, that man had a new idea not of God. God said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and man came-up with his own idea, an idea against God's idea. Because God made man, like Himself, a free volitional being with a capacity to make real and consequential choices, and man chose to rebel against God, doesn't at all shift the responsibility for the action from the one who acted to the one who made the first able to act. God made man with free will. man is not forced to do good or bad nor is he restricted from doing good or bad - because man chose to do bad doesn't mean the bad that he did is God's fault. Should God have made men robots or puppets? He could have, and we would not be happy with that - we are not happy because there is a God and it's not us.

                S > By your own hypothesis you can't even think that him giving free will is something he didn't know the consequences of. So it is all god's fault, not ours <

                (see above) I will only add; of course God knew the consequences, He made man knowing man would sin and fall from his original state, that was God's plan from before the beginning . . . because redeemed man is superior to robot man, or even innocent man. Because man rebelled, God can now redeem us to the eternal spirit beings we were ultimately designed to be.

                S >The Christian notion that god does not interfere is not born out by the OT at all . . .  It is not Pharaoh who hardens his own heart every tine, it is god that admits to doing it <

                Authentic Christianity does not at all suggest that God is not actively bringing all things about according to His own plan and purpose. God certainly 'hardened Pharaoh's heart' . . . do you know exactly what Scripture means by 'hardened his heart'? Did God force Pharaoh to do something Pharaoh was terribly against doing? Does "hardening your heart' mean that God is making you do something against your own will?

                S > He condones slavery and incest <

                He does not at all - because the Bible records a thing as happening doesn't mean that God is delighted with it happening . . . even though He uses even that, even though it all works into His eternal plan, etc, men who actually do a thing are themselves responsible for the thing they did. Jesus' arrest and execution was ordained before the world was created, it was all part of God's eternal plan - but that doesn't mean that Judas, the religious Jews, the Romans, etc, were not fully responsible for their own willful choices and deliberate acts. You need to examine, in a thorough and honest manner, the concept of time and eternity . . . eternity is not time that just goes on and on - eternity is outside of time, it is a perpetual instant, an ever-present moment, an ongoing now. God, outside of linear time, can work, plan, ordain, etc, what men do in time so as they are freely choosing and are responsible for their acts while He is bringing all thing into accord with His eternal plan and purpose for His creation.

                S > Why else put an evil cunning snake and a poison tree in our play pen? <

                . . . it's all part of the plan. If you don't 'get' the plan or know God, then it may all seem a contorted mess that some religious maniacs made-up and Christians all fall for - kind of like a retarded, infant, girl watching a football game . . . probably all appears pointless and ugly.

                S > Now I could go on to deconstruct Genesis for you and tell you it's real history. But . . . <

                Please don't assume I have not thoroughly investigated Genesis, all of Scripture, church history, and theology - I was not raised a Christian, no one talked me into it, I am not a fool, I don't ever follow along in anything, I am by natural inclination a skeptic and even an iconoclast, etc, etc. I believe the Bible, like so many men throughout history far more brilliant than either you or I, because I understand it, it's truths have been revealed to me, and I submit to God's authority and love Him. I'm not a dope and I'm not at all and never have been religious - my understanding after decades of serious Bible study, an honest investigation of the historic record, and my own reasoning convinces me of what I believe to be the truth.

                S > What is not fine with me is the idea that it would punish me for the massive crime of not believing it exists and not worshiping it like a puppy dog asking for more when the master hits me with his shoe. <

                I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God.

                S > since it is unfair for a god to create me without my consent  in to a world where he has decided I am a sinful dirt bag from birth and wants me to believe in him and kiss his ass for eternity, I want to be able to opt out. That would only be fair. <

                again, I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God. You can make-up whatever religious notions you want and then detest them as ugly and unfair - but you can't just make something up and call "Christianity" and then argue against Christianity only doing battle against your own screwy notion of some made-up 'Christianity'.

                G > Nature is responsible for all the . . . <

                What the hell is nature? Where did nature come from and how did it come to be?

                S > God is not omnipotent and need this process and can not do things in any other way, or god is omnipotent, could do things any way it wants to, and thereby cruel beyond belief. Those are the only two options open to you. <

                Slarty, you are doing here what everyone fighting against God and slandering Christianity who I have every talked with does - you are saying "these are the only two possibilities that I can imagine, I can't come-up with any other option than these two - and so, the eternal God and all His creation must fit into either one or the other of what my own little 12" screen can see or I don't like it". It's the rationalists, the scientists, the realists, the free-thinkers, the unrestrained by religious dogma,  the broad-minded, etc, who always come down to 'my way is the only way things could possibly be - so, God is mean and unfair'.

                S > Life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am giving you my opinion . . . <

                I easily accept that - and as I said, don't assume anything different for me simply because I see things differently . . . I've not been raised to think what I think, I'm not the victim of some persuasive evangelist, I'm not hurt or lost or troubled or weak or unthinking, etc -  life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am sharing with you my own understanding.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  >the cosmos does not establish some objective good and bad - whatever it is that God is and does is what good is, so >whatever He does might be misunderstood by you, might be contrary to what you think best, might appear horrifically ugly >to you, but you are not the one who decides what good is so you can't rightly identify God or what He does as good or bad . >. . it is God and what He does that identifies what is good or bad. This is not a handy catch-22 scenario that just magically >makes everything ok no matter what - it is simply the way the creation we find ourselves in works . . . whether we 'get' it or >not.

                  Well no, I don’t agree with any of that. There is a very definite objective morality. Intentional harm is immoral by definition. It is objectively evil as far as any human being is concerned.
                  Morality cannot be decreed or it is not moral. A king cannot decree what morality is and neither can a god. It is meaningless.  Morality has a basis in survival. We base many of our human laws on that premise. If I beat you, it is objective harm. If you lose your leg it is objective harm, not just subjective. And I do that to you with intent then I am immoral by default, not by decree.
                  You said yourself hat we should punish the murderer. Why? Because a god says so? Because a king says so? No. Because that person represents a real objective danger to us all.
                  So, sorry, but what applies to humans applies to everything with a consciousness and an awareness of what they are doing.
                  This is not my opinion. It is just the way it is. Cause and effect demand morality. Anyone who thinks they can live doing whatever they like eventually get slapped very hard in the face by cause and effect. If you put your hand in a fire it will burn.
                  The golden rule is something every culture of the world has come to at one point in their history. They all say it in slightly different ways. But it all boils down to a very simple phrase to live by: Do no intentional harm. So morality is part of our human nature. It is produced by what we are.
                  Intent is the key here. It is the difference between doing something that turned out bad without ill intent, and evil. Good is also based on intent. So morality is based on objective intent. The person with the intent is a subjective being, but the intent itself is objective as is an act as is the result of the act. .
                  This gets into a more complex dissertation of the relationships between the objective and the subjective than most people are familiar with. But if you are interested we can pursue it.
                  Telling me that even when god does evil it is good by default doesn’t wash.

                  S > . . . your fellow Christians. They think god is all good and love and light <

                  >. . . as I (in as much as) said previously and above, God is all and only always good and love and light - of course, it would >certainly not appear so to anyone in the dark.
                  Again, that seems a little absurd to me. And not all Christians see it your way by far. You are taking a fundamentalist stand so you are in the minority. Not that that matters as far as the truth is concerned. The majority of Christians separate evil from good. God abhors evil and can’t abide it. Would never do it himself because he is above it. Satan and man are the authors of evil.  Not just because god says it is that way but because it is that way objectively.
                  Many don’t take the old testament literally or see it as inspired lessons rather than fact.

                  S > god admits to having created evil in the Isaiah <

                  The language here is not 'evil' as in wrongdoing, it is 'evil' as in troublesome things, superior translations use the English 'calamity' rather than 'evil' . . .  the text is talking about 'the rising of the sun, light and darkness, rain', etc - God is not here announcing that rape and theft were His ideas, He's saying that floods and tornadoes are not man's or an impersonal nature's doing, he's saying when it rains it's because He causes it to rain and when it doesn't rain it's because He causes it not to rain, etc. Nothing at all to do with God creating the evil that men do.
                  No. Not about what men do, but what men are capable of doing. He set it up so we could do evil. He created the conditions for it. So he is to blame. Tornados and such with intent are again evil by definition. Causing harm with intent cannot be seen any other way.
                  Again, I am not talking about removing  a murderer from society. He will pay for harming others by being harmed if we catch him. Someone eventually will if he continues to do it. But that is cause and effect. One person punished or put away from us for a crime. Tornadoes do a hell of a lot of collateral damage. It would be immoral to drop an atom bomb on a city just to get one man.
                  He clearly admits to being responsible for evil, and I don’t agree that the better translations include the word calamity. The Hebrew word used does not mean calamity. It means what the Jews themselves tell us, evil.

                  S > if there is sin in the world it is clearly god's fault. He created the potential for it. Don't tell me we can mess up god's plan if god is omnipotent. That is just so much nonsense. <

                  >It is God's plan that men fell into sin, but God did not sin or cause man to sin - sin, in fact, is exactly that man did something >apart from God, that man had a new idea not of God. God said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and >man came-up with his own idea, an idea against God's idea. Because God made man, like Himself, a free volitional being >with a capacity to make real and consequential choices, and man chose to rebel against God, doesn't at all shift the >responsibility for the action from the one who acted to the one who made the first able to act. God made man with free will. >man is not forced to do good or bad nor is he restricted from doing good or bad - because man chose to do bad doesn't >mean the bad that he did is God's fault. Should God have made men robots or puppets? He could have, and we would not >be happy with that - we are not happy because there is a God and it's not us.
                  According to fundamentalism there is but one reason we have freedom of choice and that is to choose god’s way or not. The penalty for not is hell. So what is this free will really about? What is it worth? Nothing. If that is all it is for then we are it’s robots and that is exactly what it clearly wants us to be. It is not offering a real choice. When we make a law we don’t say you have a choice in the matter. You are not free to do what you like.
                  If we don’t obey the law we have to suffer the consequences. Same with god’s laws, right? So he is not giving you a free choice. He is giving you an ultimatum. Obey or suffer. That you have the freedom to choose is irrelevant.
                  If a god knows all in advance then before you are born he knows you will eventually go to hell. If he knows that as a fact before you are born there is no free will because the mere fact that he or anything can know that means it is written in stone..It will happen. If it does not then god did not know.
                  If god knows all in advance then there is only an illusion of free will. If he knows all in advance and allows people to be born who will make others suffer and then have to duffer for eternity, that god is one sick bugger by any standards.

                  S > By your own hypothesis you can't even think that him giving free will is something he didn't know the consequences of. So it is all god's fault, not ours <

                  >(see above) I will only add; of course God knew the consequences, He made man knowing man would sin and fall from his >original state, that was God's plan from before the beginning . . . because redeemed man is superior to robot man, or even >innocent man. Because man rebelled, God can now redeem us to the eternal spirit beings we were ultimately designed to >be.

                  Really? How is trained robot better than innocent robot. Lol... I guess it’s good we sinned then. We should all be sainted for doing god’s work. Basically you are agreeing with me. It is all god’s plan. Every murder, every wife beating, every war, every child molested. All to make us what? Better willing ass kissers? It’s all god’s plan so god is responsible for it all. Every stinking bit of it as well as every great part.
                  Sorry. Not my kind of god. I also don’t see the benefit of being a willing ass kisser for the egomaniac who supposedly made me. .

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  S >The Christian notion that god does not interfere is not born out by the OT at all . . .  It is not Pharaoh who hardens his own heart every tine, it is god that admits to doing it <

                  >Authentic Christianity does not at all suggest that God is not actively bringing all things about according to His own plan >and purpose. God certainly 'hardened Pharaoh's heart' . . . do you know exactly what Scripture means by 'hardened his >heart'? Did God force Pharaoh to do something Pharaoh was terribly against doing? Does "hardening your heart' mean >that God is making you do something against your own will?
                  No. It means he is making you do something through his will. You probably think it is your own idea. Either way it wasn’t Pharaoh’s choice anymore.
                  Unfortunately you will never know what authentic Christianity was. That has long ago been all but buried . But be assured the Christians of that time were almost as fragmented as you guys are now. You have gotten agreement from some and disagreement from others.

                  S > He condones slavery and incest <

                  >He does not at all
                  Of course he does. He create the potential for it and according to you everything is his plan. So you can’t continue to ignore the fact that if he knows in advance and it is all part of the plan then he is responsible for it and we are just pawns going through the motions. .

                  S > Why else put an evil cunning snake and a poison tree in our play pen? <

                  >. . . it's all part of the plan. If you don't 'get' the plan or know God, then it may all seem a contorted mess that some religious >maniacs made-up and Christians all fall for - kind of like a retarded, infant, girl watching a football game . . . probably all >appears pointless and ugly.
                  Not appears. Is.


                  S > What is not fine with me is the idea that it would punish me for the massive crime of not believing it exists and not worshiping it like a puppy dog asking for more when the master hits me with his shoe. <

                  >I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God.
                  But you have done nothing but repeat it here. It’s all god’s plan. Every ugly little bit of it. An omnipotent god that has to create perfection by making the ugliest most sadistic mess possible. Not unbiblical at all, in fact. Just not the preferred spin.

                  S > since it is unfair for a god to create me without my consent  in to a world where he has decided I am a sinful dirt bag from birth and wants me to believe in him and kiss his ass for eternity, I want to be able to opt out. That would only be fair. <

                  >again, I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God. You can make-up whatever >religious notions you want and then detest them as ugly and unfair - but you can't just make something up and call >"Christianity" and then argue against Christianity only doing battle against your own screwy notion of some made-up >'Christianity'.
                  It is a realistic notion of the situation. Did I consent to be born? No. Am I supposedly born a dinner? Yes. Does god want me to love and worship him willingly, and is that not the only reason it saddled me with free will and no evidence it actually exists? According to Christianity it does. According to your religion can I opt out and not go to either heaven or hell but be left alone to die and not wake up dead? Not that I have heard.
                  So I fail to see how I have misrepresented your religion.  Explain it to me please.

                  G > Nature is responsible for all the . . . <

                  ?What the hell is nature? Where did nature come from and how did it come to be?
                  It always was and always will be, No god required. wink Nature exists and demonstrably so. Natural processes are always at work creating. And it is the nature of energy that does it all. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore it probably always was and always will be in one form or other.
                  Aquinas noted that for there to be something now there would always have to have been something. He said that something was god. But what he did not know was that science would discover that all we are is energy. There is no other substance. Everything made of it and it is amazingly creative.
                  Nature or the nature of energy is a fact.. So while Aquinas was right about part of his ontological argument, he was wrong that there was only one answer. Since a conscious god is not a known fact and nature is, nature is thus far the best candidate for being god and being eternal.

                  S > God is not omnipotent and need this process and cannot do things in any other way, or god is omnipotent, could do things any way it wants to, and thereby cruel beyond belief. Those are the only two options open to you. <

                  Slarty, you are doing here what everyone fighting against God and slandering Christianity who I have every talked with does - you are saying "these are the only two possibilities that I can imagine, I can't come-up with any other option than these two - and so, the eternal God and all His creation must fit into either one or the other of what my own little 12" screen can see or I don't like it". It's the rationalists, the scientists, the realists, the free-thinkers, the unrestrained by religious dogma,  the broad-minded, etc, who always come down to 'my way is the only way things could possibly be - so, God is mean and >unfair'.
                  So can you come up with any other possibility besides the idea that he can do no wrong and evil is actually good if god does it?

                  S > Life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am giving you my opinion . . . <

                  >I easily accept that - and as I said, don't assume anything different for me simply because I see things differently . .
                  Very good. wink I try not to assume anything. wink .

                3. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Hello Gentlemen!

                  I see, that while I've been away, you've been debating. It's late and I will only take the time to reply to one little portion of this particular piece of dialogue to interject one puny "other" idea.

                  You Mr. O'Brian say, " if there is sin in the world it is clearly god's fault. He created the potential for it. Don't tell me we can mess up god's plan if god is omnipotent. That is just so much nonsense."

                  To which Mr. MickeySr replies:

                  It is God's plan that men fell into sin, but God did not sin or cause man to sin - sin, in fact, is exactly that man did something apart from God, that man had a new idea not of God. God said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and man came-up with his own idea, an idea against God's idea. Because God made man, like Himself, a free volitional being with a capacity to make real and consequential choices, and man chose to rebel against God, doesn't at all shift the responsibility for the action from the one who acted to the one who made the first able to act. God made man with free will. man is not forced to do good or bad nor is he restricted from doing good or bad - because man chose to do bad doesn't mean the bad that he did is God's fault. Should God have made men robots or puppets? He could have, and we would not be happy with that - we are not happy because there is a God and it's not us.

                  (I agree with Mr. MickeySr. In my estimation the real reason so many people fail to believe there is a G'D, Who Reigns and is Sovereign, is because if He Is, then they can never be 'gods unto themselves, free from the thought of condemnation, free to do as they like without the limitations imposed by a consequence, free to say, think, act, believe, promote and inspire anything at anytime, without ever having to explain themselves; but if G'D DOES EXIST, everything changes. In which case, to declare, "god is not" takes that entire component of accountability and throws it out the window, leaving any individual who chooses to think this way free to rationalize, his life away; and while he does this, he wants to make clear his position, because if he can state his case with confidence and many others think as he does, he feels better about what he believes and takes comfort knowing he is not alone. Perhaps, if enough people believe as he does, then his position may be true. After all, if it wasn't should there be at least one human being in the world capable of convincing him otherwise?) Just my thoughts.

                  Another thought...

                  If G'D Is Real and...

                  1. G'D asks man not to sin.
                  2. Man is doing just fine until a counterfeit god, that wants the True G'D's glory...
                  3. (haSatan) enters the picture in the form of a snake and creates doubt as to (in no particular order) a: the veracity of The True G'D's Word.
                                                    b. the intention behind The True G'D's Rule.
                                                    c. the result (consequence) of being disobedient.

                  And what if:

                  In those moments between when Eve took from the forbidden fruit into her hand to then put it into her mouth where she proceeded to eat it, she had to decide whom she was going to believe, G'D or haSatan.

                  And what if:

                  Complete details pertaining to where exactly Adam was when she did this are not included, but for the sake of presentation, let's say Adam was right there, in beside the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with her, listening to her verbal exchange with the snake. If so, he had enough time to think about what haSatan, through the snake said to Eve during that same timeframe that it took her to reach out, touch the fruit, chew on it and swallow. Once she did so, she offered the fruit to Adam to taste.

                  And what:

                  If this is true, Adam had a few extra moments in which to make a conscientious decision as to whether or not he would believe what he was seeing, (because clearly Eve did not drop dead as we know 'dead' in front of him) as well as what the snake said tp Eve. In other words, he had the chance to consider what he would believe, his eyes, the words of the snake, or the word of G'D. Once he made that decision, he had to choose whom of the two (G'D or the snake) he would obey.

                  Anyone who has read the account knows Adam chose to believe and obey the snake, who was representing haSatan.

                  Now forget about G'D, haSatan, Adam and Eve for a minute and consider this analogy (I haven't forgotten to address your analogy Mr. O'Brian~ I'm still working on doing so, but this debate keeps moving forward so I had to stop in and share).

                  You have a son to whom you say, don't ever take drugs because if you do, you will surely become addicted. You tell him this because you love him and you want to protect him. Your son also loves you and trusts you because, for as long as he can remember, all you've ever done is protect him. But the day comes when you allow him to wander about without you; and on one occasion, he meets up with, yes, a drug dealer, who tells him, "drugs won't addict you, try some and see". Your son's initial instinct is to disbelieve the drug dealer, but then, he watches and sees someone else standing nearby, who was listening to the drug dealer's words, and who ready to buy some drugs, completes the deal, then pops them into his mouth and walks away.

                  As far as your son can tell, nothing hideous has happened. So, he begins to wonder if you were telling him the truth. Despite all the ways you protected him. The drug dealer says, "drugs won't addict you, they'll thrill you beyond compare." So,  he decides you must not be the trustworthy father he thought you to be all along. You probably want to keep something really exciting away from him. As a result, he decides to believe the drug dealer and he proceeds to buy some drugs and pops them into his mouth, not realizing he has exchanged his focus of faith, trust and love from you, to himself and to that drug dealer.

                  The next time you see him, you immediately see the damage he's done. By this time, he also realizes he's made a big mistake,. He doesn't feel very good, but it's too late. Nothing inside his system will be the same after this. Worst of all, unless he follows your instructions, he will begin craving more drugs, until all he can think about is how to get more drugs.

                  You want to help him, but unless he's ready to admit he's made a big mistake, you can't. The drug dealer is still around. The drugs continue to be available to him. Your son's mind and body have been polluted. He needs rehabilitation; but until he's ready to admit he has a problem, nothing will save him from this addiction.

                  Knowing all this, you decide to back off and let him do what he wants to do, because if he doesn't come to you on his own, he'll never even stand a chance at winning what is a losing battle. Your broken up by the sight of him as a drug addict, because he's reduced to a fraction of the person you raised him with the potential to be. You know he's intelligent enough to find his way back to you. You've always been there for him. He knows that. You're there for him now, but until he's finally ready to admit he cannot get clean alone, you can't reach through the darkness crowding his brain with a hundred thousand other ideas related to how he can be that person he was before he ever took any drugs.

                  He has several choices: 1. To repent of his mistakes and admit he was lied to by the drug dealer, who only wanted to gain from his pain. Then he can ask for your help. Or ...

                  2. He can reach rock bottom, blaming you for letting him out on his own in the first place, where the drug dealer waited to victimize him, despite the fact that you warned him never to take drugs.

                  3. He can decide to forget you ever existed and continue on without you... until he believes you never existed... but blames you for everything bad that ever happens to him...

                  As the father, you have choices too:

                  1. You can continue trying to reach out to your child.
                  2. You can decide to distance yourself from him the deeper he gets involved with the drugs, because the further away from you he runs, the slimmer the chance he'll ever find you again.
                  3. You can leave him alone, to find his way, up until that very moment when he dies from his addiction, at which point in time, you'll be separated forever.

                  (I'll stop here or this will end up a twelve page analogy. )

                  My only question to you, at this time, Mr. O'Brian: Who's to blame for this person's drug addiction?


                  Moving forward then:



                  In that very moment that Adam took the forbidden fruit from Eve,

                  1. EmVeeT profile image80
                    EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    *Moving forward then: In that very moment that Adam took the forbidden fruit from Eve,

                    *Sorry about these last two line on this post. I wrote it after 2 a.m. and didn't check to see whether or not I had cleared away any previous thoughts...

                    Moving forward though:

                    I can go back through these posts and find a zillion various discussions to drop into, a hundred incongruent trains of thought that have yet to be addressed, and that  will probably never be addressed. This debate could go on forever, based on a myriad of ideas, platforms and experiences. (Yes, I know, I've said this before and have agreed to go back and try to respond to that original question but) My opinion rests on the fact that, those who wish to understand the Bible and believe G'D Is and He Is Good, will do so. Everyone else will not.

                    Mr. O'Brian, you write:

                    Now. Before you make the obvious and very old argument that my view shows someone who is very mad at god and religion because life has been bad to me or a Christian has abused me os some such thing, believe me when I tell you that is not the case.

                    Life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am giving you my opinion based on what I have read in the bible and have studied all my life about theology, the same way I would give opinions about any characters in any fiction novel.

                    To this I will respond.

                    Perhaps this is the very problem here. You haven't suffered devastation. You haven't had to search your mind for an answer that isn't available in the temporal...until, finally breaking down, you plunge onto psychological knees to cry out, "G'D if you're real, help me!" Your life has been, perhaps, a little too perfect, a little too ordered.

                    Could it be that you're sitting pretty in that place where the devil (yes haSatan, whom you also disbelieve exists~ and rightfully so, if G'D does not exist no enemy of G'D can exist on the same platform of thought) wants you. You don't believe in him. You have shut your eyes and ears to anything relating to The One Who Created you. You are not fodder for his fire, you are not a threat to his kingdom. There is no need for him ,his powers of darkness, any horde of demons or minions at any level, to invest extra time on you. You are right where he needs you to be, without any further help from any outside source. You've determined in your mind, and directed your heart to reduce any credits due to humankind (or just to yourself). You have no room to allow any credit for any part of your existence, choices, desires, thoughts, accomplishments etc., to "G'D". You've done it all on your own. Brilliant.

                    What's even more brilliant?

                    Well, if there is an enemy of G'D, who counterfeits in the hearts and minds of millions of individuals, spread out over time, distance and the ages, he has honed, to perfection, the structures whereby you, yes you, are influenced against the G'D you don't believe in. So that now, he uses you as an instrument of his destruction and demise. You become a propagator of his schemes, his deception, his insidious methods of encouraging doubt in those who do believe in G'D. You are his voice.

                    Notice how you are not here questioning the validity, or right, or power, potential and authority of a false god? No. You're here, convinced and working overtime to convince those who may be reading these posts, filled with so much cynicism, self-righteousness, pride and slander against The Living G'D, to see the 'truth' behind your words.

                    I have to go now. Life calls, but I will spend a little more time today considering how I may yet make an effort to answer that original question. I've started. I'm not ready to post a response on my Hub Page though. I'm not sure I'll ever be ready. As I first mentioned, the variables in my view, and the structures upon which I build my argument will be based on more factors than I can possibly address. So, I will simply state my view, based on my life experiences, which cannot be proven to any audience, but that are my life experiences. I will not bring science, or even Scripture verse into my presentation, because I've decided to make my point apart from outside influences. Philosophers and secular humanists will have to take, from my work what they will... but I am not expecting for any such thinkers to take from it. I only expect my experiences to be torn apart perhaps and/or ridiculed.

                    ... I leave you to your discussion(s) for now.

                    May G'D Bless you, Mr. O'Brian, as only He Can.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      "Perhaps this is the very problem here. You haven't suffered devastation. You haven't had to search your mind for an answer that isn't available in the temporal...until, finally breaking down, you plunge onto psychological knees to cry out, "G'D if you're real, help me!" Your life has been, perhaps, a little too perfect, a little too ordered."

                      That's funny. I did not say I never had hardship. I've had my share. I've cried out. I've gotten answers. And yes they were from my own mind.

                      No I don't believe in satan. Evil is not a being it is intent and satan is really just an add on.

                      I find it funny when people tell me that's just what he wants me to think.

                      The Gnostic books tell us the Christian god is satan in disguise. They say it is you are being fooled by satan in to believing he is god. The real god is harder to reach because he gave earth to the devil and won't go back on his word.

                      So perhaps what I see of your god they saw too and decided they weren't going to be fooled by people who told then black was white and everything god does is good even if it is obviously evil.

                      Strangely there is a Babylonian god called Yew who was banished from heaven by Baal for telling his followers he was the only god and that other gods were demons. Could he be the Jewish god and hence your god? The real god's enemy?

                      If you believe in satan you see it everywhere. It should drive Christians mad far more often than it does.

                      So may the real god forgive you for being taken in the way you have been wink

                      Have a great day. wink

                      The Babylonians

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok. But I for one understand that I can not live my life without consequences and condemnation if I act immorally. This idea that atheists want to be their own god is all wrong.. I suppose some do in the sense you mean buy by and large people realize that with or without a god we are at the whim of cause and effect.

                    Lucky cause and effect are order. We can understand it and learn to use it to our advantage,

                    Christianity is a very selfish religion. It seems to me that no one wants to pay for their own sin so they celibrate the murder of an innocent man in the hope they will be saved from the wrath of their god and live for ever in some sort of bliss praising god for eternity for picking them.

                    They prey to their god in hopes that they can petition it to help them. they make deals with it and try to coarse it and promise to do anything for favors rendered. They use their god or try to. At least when they aren't afraid of it and begging for it's mercy.

                    God does not act like a father. A father would put a snake in the play pen with a poison plant, tell his kids not to touch the plant or they will die, and then get angry with them when they do what he knows they will do and curse them for eternity or throw them in hell for eternal torture.

                    None of that is what a loving father would do.

                    Another thing about this Adam and Eve myth. Has it ever occurred to any Christian that Adam and Eve could not have sinned by eating that apple because they did not know what good or evil was till they ate it?

                    At that point they were as bright as a cow in the field. They did not know good or evil according to this myth. Sin is doing something intentionally knowing it is against god's will. They could not know that until after they ate the apple.

                    The myth is a mess and a load of contradiction.

                    Your analogy is not similar to the issue at hand. In your scenario you ask if I am responsible for my son's drug habit or if he is. Obviously he is because he is taking the drugs. (I have no son on drugs by the way,)  did not invent drugs nor put them in his hands.

                    A better analogy is Hitler. He never killed Jews himself. He never perennially invaded or bombed anyone. But he planned it and ordered it all. We blame him for the war and the killings even though others carried out those orders and that plan.

                    If god planned the murder of his son then he is responsible for it just as Hitler is responsible for what he planned and ordered. That is the same thing.

                    And all we do is in aid of god's plan then he is to blame for all that goes on good and evil. You can't absolve your god and I doubt it would want you to. I'm sure it would be god enough to accept it's responsibility.

                    There was no devil  in Judaism because was the whole thing, good and evil. Christians cut gods balls off and made satan with them so god could have deniability.

                    Satan is a construct of Christianity. The word satan in the old testament is not a name, it is a title held by a class of angels, the watchers. They were supposedly the accusers or old time cops of heaven.

                    They brought charges before god against humans if those humans had done things that are against god's laws. There was never an angel called Satan. Often in other Hebrew text we find references to the satan or the satans.

                    That was what Job was about. A satan bringing doubt to god's mind about a particular man. The Jews see this as a metaphor for god's doubt.

                    But in any case, even more than I do not believe a Christian god exists, I do not believe a Satan exist.

                    1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Adam was told by God not to eat the apple. He did! Disobedience is sin and sin is separation from God, and separation God is unto death. Nothingness. Simple as that!

            2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
              Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hey, that was a pretty deep post! I appreciate your sharing that viewpoint; it is definitely intriguing -after scanning through dozens of posts - that is something new.
              I would like to add, and I hope you don’t mind me tacking it on to my response to your bit, is another thought on how God must deal with sin, when He decides something must be done. Mormon scripture says that the sinners will meet a speedy destruction when their iniquity is fully ripe.
              Anyhow, when God in His infinite wisdom designed the sagacious and loving Plan of Salvation for His creation, He stipulated LAWS that must apply, and because these laws represent the Ethos of God, He is also bound by them. He does not kill except out of necessity (which may be to save precious innocents from a lifetime of suffering, or to destroy those who consistently and wilfully work to disrupt the lives and righteous aspirations of those that love Him). I do not know why some have to suffer when there is no evidence of their doing evil against them, but it has been surmised that either they (those who suffer for no apparent reason) rebelled against God in the pre-existence (because God knew us before we were formed in the womb) but they were not cast out with Satan, or their sufferings are as a result of their ancestors sins (up to the fourth generation) - something like a child suffering from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or for another as yet un-revealed reason. You can “bet” (for lack of a better term) that those who suffer unnecessarily will be “compensated” in heaven. We also know from scripture that anyone who suffers torment from the reviling of non-believers against them will do well in heaven.
              Then, since God the Father MUST (by His own unbreakable rules) deal with fully ripe sinners and nations in the throws of iniquity, the only sacrifice that is whole and Holy, and sacred enough to have the bonds of Mercy overpower the bonds of Justice is to sacrifice His Son (who volunteered, to Help all that love Him, and to bring Mercy TO Man (not to bring mercy to God).
              You can find the above references in the “Holy Bible” and the “Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ”. The Book of Mormon chapter that explains better than I can about Mercy and Justice are found in chapter 34, especially v.15 “And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.”
              Peace and good tidings.

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Lord,

                Thanks for the lifting hand! I was praying for help.

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Wow and it worked isn't god great?
                  Now how about praying for the children who are NEEDLESSLY dying!

                  Surely with your prayers your god can do that!

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    YAP!!!! And much more.

                    1. earnestshub profile image89
                      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      How many children did you and god save today, and if it was even one, can you tell us about it and provide proof?

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                first of all. Telling me that a god that plans all thing and then saying it is not responsible for what it has planned is like telling Hitler is blameless for both the war and the killing of innocent Jews because all he did was plan it and never never invaded anywhere or killed any one himself. The people that carried out the orders are the only ones to blame. Not logical and doesn't wash.

                Second you rely on the idea that your is omnipotent. But there are always limitations. Not even a god can do an impossible thing like make square circle. So omnipotence is impossible for anything including a god. There are always limitations. Order means limitations. Order allows creativity because there limits. Without limits nothing can happen or even exist.

                Third is the perfection of god. Your god can not be prefect for one simple reason. We exist. It has a plan. If it has a plan it has needs. If it has needs it is not perfect. Simple as that. We would not exist if it were perfect there would be no need for us to.

                So in other words the god you envision is not possible. It could exist as a variation without being omnipotent or perfect, But that's what Christianity believes.

      10. livelonger profile image89
        livelongerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Because it was common belief among the pagan cults of the Mediterranean basin at the time that deities required human sacrifice to be appeased.

        That Judaism outlawed human sacrifice was meaningless; the big growth in converts to Christianity were among pagans.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Good point. I think that is certainly part of  this story. But unless you are an unusual Christian that's not the sort of thinking Christians generally like. wink

      11. manlypoetryman profile image68
        manlypoetrymanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This answer may have been given. Sorry...but i did not read all 200 and 56 other postings to this thread. But one answer that comes to mind would be:

        "Because he wanted to get your attention!"

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It has been mentioned actually. wink It's an interesting idea but don't you think the creator of the universe could have thought of a better way?

          For instance: I don't believe a word of the story as told. So he failed to get my attention. Would an omnipotent god fail?

          And it isn't because I do not want o believe, I can not believe because I have no evidence in front of me to suggest it is undeniably true.

          A real god could let us all know in no uncertain terms that it exists without a doubt. To me all these excuses people give for the absence of their god or proof it exists are just that: excuses for an absent and probably nonexistent god.

          I can not help but think that a real god could not and would fail to get our full and undivided attention all over the world all the same time. This entire idea of needing faith is a whitewash. You do not need to have faith in the existence of real things for them to be real. They are or they are not regardless of whether we believe they exist or not.

          So if a god wants me it knows where to find me. I'll give it my undivided attention, It doesn't need theatrics or murder.

          1. manlypoetryman profile image68
            manlypoetrymanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well...at least he got your attention long enough to ask the question in the first place cool. There has to be enough there to give credit for the initial question! Perhaps the rest is left that way by the design of an omnipotent god.

            I'm pretty sure God will find you...and get your undivided attention...at some point in your life. Each person has a different point and time...according to an omnipotent god. Probably has a lot to do with someones willingness to receive him in the first place...at a time that is best...for intersecting with your whole life. (which an omnipotenet god would know best. A god that sees from the beginning all the way to the end...at the same.)

            The Bible puts alot of emphasis on seeking him first...and then you will find him...but you would have to believe that this is true...in order to start the ball rolling.

            Anyways...that is my take on it...Peace! cool

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. The Christian religion and it's premise certainly did get my attention. I was born and baptized Christian so I couldn't help noticing it. lol...

              As for a god, I was and did want to be open to one and spent many years seeking him. In fact from age 6 to age 15 or 16, if I recall correctly. I've never stopped looking for answers but one of the answers I found was that there is probably no Christian style god at all.

              So it has not been for lack of looking. But hey, you have to at some point just say, you know what? I don't think what I am looking for exists. You can't keep looking for nothing for ever. I'm now 56 years old and have still not found that god nor heard from it even though the door has always been open in some way.

              I am a Pantheist. And as such I think the idea that nature is god is the best explanation thus far. God as defined as that which produced all things. I'm not saying it is absolutely the truth because I can't know that, just as you can not know your exists in reality and not just as an idea in the collective heads of all christians.

              But there is evidence in science for that being the case. So for now unless your god show up and really gets my attention, I think nature itself as that which you call god has a high degree of probability.

              Peace to you too. wink

      12. Min Lee profile image61
        Min Leeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Haha, "bait!!"
        It's such a good answer. License to not even try.

      13. 0
        Virgil Newsomeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

        You call it nonsense showing that your mind is made up already no matter what anyone says.  If you would read the scriptures, you would notice that God did not murder his son nor did God take his son's life.  God gave his son.  The best he had to offer.  Men rejected him and nailed him to the cross.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So god never planned any of it?

          1. 0
            Virgil Newsomeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No.  Do you misread on purpose?   God gave to mankind the best he had to offer.  Mankind killed what God gave. 

            Have you ever given a gift to someone who just trampled all over it?  It may have been an expensive gift or even something the person needed, but they decided they hated it.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Can't say I have. But I do know I don't expect anything when I give a gift so it wouldn't bother me if someone wiped their a** with it. I can't imagine a god could either.

              But that isn't the point is it? What denomination are you? It might might give me a better idea what you are on about.

              The entire idea of Christianity is that god sacrificed his son so he could forgive us for original sin, open the doors to heaven for us and forgive future sin. That's what the idea of the Passion story is all about.

              But you are saying god never meant Jesus to die, we just killed him and messed up the gift he gave us? There was never meant to be a crucifixion?

              What was that story in the garden before the event about then, where Jesus asks to not have to go through this ordeal? What was "Father why have f\you forsaken me?" all about?

              Seems to me if there is a god he planned it and insisted it be done. Why do you think otherwise?

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "...Father, why have you forsaken me...", this was Jesus's Spiritual death, separation from God in order to fully pay our sin debt and redeem us unto God again. God is a Spirit. The flesh is subject to the spirit. Three days later He rose from the grave and had captured captivity with victory over death. Oh death where is your sting; oh grave where is your victory?

                This was totally and completely for us without God fixing each man like mechanicing on an auto, replacing parts and modifying. WE ALL F-ING DID IT! MAN UP1

                Free moral agents either continue to sin unto death and nothingness or choose Jesus Christ as their Savior.

                God turned His back on His Son in order that the world's sin debt be paid in full. Jesus died and God was pissed! He said those S.O.B.'s did it which caused a storm, earthquake, and knocked the temple down. Truly He was the Son of God!!

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Sounds like he couldn't make up his mind whether he planned it or man kind it either. I know I didn't do it and I do not accept the so called gift. If there are sins to pay for I'll pay for them myself. Don't try to hang that murder rap on me,sister. lol...

                  I think you christians are so confused you don't know if god planed it or if he didn't and you have combined the two together to confuse yourselves even farther.

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus did; God accepted.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      So that's why Jesus asked for the burden to taken from him? The biblical evidence seems to contradict you.

          2. wilmiers77 profile image60
            wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God is omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent. Once again, God gave us free will; we are free moral agents whom God wants each of us to love and depend on Him complete for eternal life with God. God has not over ruled our free will, if He did we would be His puppets or robots.

            God's plan is not that anyone dies, but He allowed it in order to not over rule our free will. Did He fore know every thing? Yes. Who can question God's method to create an eternal being? Is it you? Can you or any one that you know besides God can create an eternal being.

            Science shall figure out how to make us to live much, much longer even toward infinity, but never an eternal being because being eternal is with God and depends on only God.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I told you before that free angle is bogus. If free will is just to choose between him and satan he can have it back.

              There is no such thing as free will and no where in the bible does it mention it or say when god gave it.

              It's something Christianity has made up.  Please show the passages that tell us when god gave us free will and why.

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                A better word is "Choice". We have the freedom to choose even to commit suicide. Connotation of "Will" have varied over the pass 100 years. At first, Christians thought or perceived "will" mostly as deciding to act. Now, will is more perceived as "Will Power" in a creative sense.

                1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                  wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh Slarty,

                  Since you hate that God created you and placed you here with the rest of us, than exercise your God given free choice, and commit suicide. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
                  Us Christians won't bring charges against you; we prefer to love the memory of you!

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You still have to show me where god gave you free choice or will. When was it given? Where is it written?

                    Since I do not believe in your god I can't hate that he made me because he didn't. I love life and the totality of existence. Life is meaningful because it is not eternal. Eternal life is cheep. I always wondered why you christians don't kill yourself to get to heaven quicker if you hate it so much here in this horrible sinful place.

                    I think it's great. wink

                    1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You said it; I didn't!! Go right on.

                    2. wilmiers77 profile image60
                      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I bow out with the best of wishes for you. The B.I B.L.E. says, "It's a fool that says in his heart that there is no GOD."

      14. somethgblue profile image90
        somethgblueposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The real question is what is the punishment for hanging the Son of God on a cross until he dies?

        The Prime Creator is everyone's God not just the Christians, but the answer is really quite simple.

        Because people are afraid of the truth. It is easier for people to create their own truth than accept a universal one that might require unconditional love and giving. Taking and hating is easy anyone and everyone can do it, practicing unconditional love, integrity and truth is difficult.

        "The path of least resistance leads to the garbage heap of despair" Matt Johnson (The The)

      15. Repairguy47 profile image60
        Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        To show man he that he loved them enough to give his only son.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And you think it is rational and loving  to order the death of your son so you can forgive someone?

          1. Repairguy47 profile image60
            Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I don't know that God did that in ORDER to forgive. Do I think its rational and loving? I wouldn't order the death of my son to forgive you, but I'm not God, it may have made perfect sense to him. Man needs grand gestures sometimes to get the hint.

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes murder is a "grand" gesture.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You forget that God sacrificed himself. He willingly did this and proclaimed it in the OT, thousands of years before he was crucified. He gave up his life, He prevented a murder by giving up his life, the men did not kill him, the cross did not kill him, his last words, "it is finished" and "into your hand i commend my spirit".
                sidenote: John 19:30   When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost   Normally when a person dies their head drops after they are dead not before.
                Luke 23:46   And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice , he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.   People who are suffocating and have severe blood loss never cry out with a loud voice, they are lucky if they can even whisper. God was in control of this entire situation.
                They did not kill him. He could have remained alive on that cross until today.
                In this instance it was a tremendously grand "event" (so much more than a gesture) So many different things were done by being in the flesh.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Well at least you think your god is responsible for his actions. I take it you are not a fundamentalist. They tell me he isn't responsible for anything.

              2. Repairguy47 profile image60
                Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                God didn't murder Jesus, man did.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  If he planned it, he is responsible for it just as much as those who did it.

                2. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  God new about it in advance, arranged it, and his word set the stage for it according to the "good book"

                  God made himself, became his own son and then murdered himself is the way it reads. lol

                  1. Repairguy47 profile image60
                    Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Then its suicide not murder. Make up your mind.

                    1. earnestshub profile image89
                      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      It's your story, you work it out. smile

                    2. wilmiers77 profile image60
                      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I am right!! You know nothing about Christianity and the human mind governing by your response.

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              If it isn't rational for you, it isn't rational for a god. It just isn't rational at all. Don't you remember what your mother told you? If it feels wrong it probably is? lol...

              1. Repairguy47 profile image60
                Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I don't have any idea what is rational for God, you keep wanting to put me in his place.

                1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                  wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  God is not bound by man's rationale. God is beyond time and spirit. Eternal Heaven is where God lives; all I can say.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    But you can't know that so.... wink

                    1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      It has been confirmed in my spirit. You won't know at all and I don't blame you; just haven't seen the light. Spirituality goes toward infinity in the inner depts of your mind. I believe that you are only using your brain, the more computer part of a human which is for acting, logic, and reasoning with its storaged data.

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No. I want you think rationally. Did your mother never tell you that if you felt it was wrong it probably is? You know what right and wrong are. So you can judge acts by others as right or wrong, even gods.

                  1. Repairguy47 profile image60
                    Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You wanted an answer to a question that you said couldn't be answered, I gave you the answer. You don't like the answer its as simple as that. Its not my place to judge you or God so I don't think I will.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      You said you didn't know. I accept that. I know the story. The part that can not be rationally answered is why. So to me, an omnipotent god could do anything it wanted to do any way it wanted to do it. If it chooses an evil or immoral way to do it, then it is obvious the god is immoral.

                      The bible shows that clearly. That's all.

      16. sparkster profile image93
        sparksterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not going to get too deep into this conversation, I have friends who are religious and I respect that.  Personally, some of the things that I used to read in the bible when I was a child scared the living hell out of me, the bible clearly uses scare tactics in order to manipulate people into believing it.

        Would a God really want gay people to be stoned to death?  Would a God really want a man's brother to have children with his wife if anything should happen to him?  Would a God damn someone to Hell for not believing in him when he doesn't show himself?

        The bible is a very strange thing to believe in, in my opinion.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It is a very strange thing to believe in, indeed. wink

      17. jacharless profile image83
        jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well, I am not a Christian, but I would like to reply:

        There was never an "order" or "hit" issued that the son had to be killed.
        The agreement, covenant, states that the first born son was to be "offered".
        Under that same law -the Moshe or Mosaic- defined "forgiveness" by the visibility of blood. In fact, it is noted that as a child is born, all sins of a woman are forgiven or as her cycle comes, all is made new. This is seen in many pagan as well as Judaic celebrations of Harvest "Red" Moon events, Wine festivals, and yes, the horrible sacrificing of animals, etc.

        Prior to the covenant, there is much with regard to the purpose of the son, the purpose of the offering and the purpose of the "death/near death" experience. For that, you should read a lot of Hebrew text on the subject (not necessarily the "bible")... else you are just pissing wind, to light a flame of argument under a die-o-log of ignorance.

        According to the covenant fulfillment, a break away from death was required. That inception came when the man indulged his mind (ate the fruit of knowledge --ate of reason) and became "naked" or "unclothed" of his original power/understanding/abilities. The organic result, man became precisely like all other living objects on the planet -mortal.  (I say mortal as that. For reference see the near 525,000 present publications --not to mention stories thousands of years old, told by every type of human culture to have ever existed-- on mortality, life extension, medicine, vampirism, etc -fable or 'fact'). That mortality was required to be removed. However, the information states that Creator himself is forbidden to look upon any sin and therefore an equal to the man was required to complete the process. As Gene Roddenberry scripted, using the character Dr Spock, "The Need of the many outweighs the need of the few". That man is known the world over as Immanu El (aka Joshua, Y`shua, "YAH"shua, Iesous, Jesus, David of God, The Second Adam, etc etc etc).

        The purpose of death was to remove all elements of the present stasis of mortality --the organic mortality, as man had traded his immortality for that organic limitation. In essence, death destroyed itself by swallowing itself up. Same thing with ANY organic -from a Red Giant Star to a microbe. It will continue to consume itself until it destroys itself. A plant will consume all the nutrients in itself, to keep the roots alive -and even go so far as to "eat" its own roots until it exists no more. This is what happened to "sin" through this individual.

        Therefore, according to the pre and post covenant, an organic man was required to enact the "Osmosis of Grace", whereby liberating everyone from that instance on. How the process can happen cannot be explained in simple organic terms, but even the might scientists are seeing it is possible. Unfortunately, religion -pro and now con- have totality mucked it up and have reduced themselves to monkey chatter and banana peels beneath each others feet --oh and that fire I mentioned earlier.

        The key to understanding it, is found in a single two words with nearly the same meaning --rest and ruach.

        Cheers,
        James.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Nice one, James. Glad you could comment.

          Of course I am not a Christian either. But I do understand all you have said. My problem is why does an omnipotent god need to use devices to do anything? It can apparently do anything anyway it wants. But you are putting restrictions on it. Who forbids the creator to do anything?

          If it has restrictions it kind of messes up it's omnipotence, doesn't it?

          1. jacharless profile image83
            jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Hello Brian.
            Actually, Creator "can" do anything he wants.
            But as have I told quite of few Christians and post-Christians, even though he "can" does not often means he "does" -- case in point is his ability to destroy both body and soul in "hell", which is one of the biggest scare tactics used by Christians, thanks to the Pauline fixation. Torah is one of the largest "threat" books I have ever read. There are over 5,000 threats/curses and 10,000 promises/blessings in it. Reminded me of a parent yelling at there child in one of those "or else" moments.

            Anyway. As a now organic entity, man required an equal to counter his actions.
            That was the rule, that was the agreement. I joke about it, but its true -cannot send a fish to do a monkey's job.

            The universe has an order, rules, structure.  A violation of that rule or structure would result in a ripple effect of all other rules, all other realities. My writing on this confirms at the Adamic Inception, all Six of the Seven Realities were altered. All Six of those realities pertain to the organic or collected physic. Man literally altered the universe with his action --as the universe was created for him to govern. In this new stasis of mortality, he could no longer assume his abilities and that is possibly why the agreement was set in motion. (again, that part is just my notion and may not pertain to subject).

            According to the Hebrew I have read and studied, this was the phraseology used to define this event/requirement and all elementals of covenant. Also note it was voluntary --exactly as Isaac was a voluntary. All commands in Hebrew are voluntary and understoond that they fall within certain parameters. The only rule that is all inclusive is: Walk With Me, which seems to have been established when the Seven Reality --Rest/ruach-- was formed. Judaism is emphatic on this through the text. I believe -and may be incorrect- but Immanu El mentioned precisely the same action among men: if a man requests you to Walk With Him a just a single kilometer, walk with him two. The phrases are identical.

            The restriction comes on mans side, I believe. As a mortal, man is restricted and therefore limits what Creator is able to do -in his full measure of power- for man. There is a bit in there about how a single ray of light from Creators mouth consumes the earth with fire. The metaphor compares to an ant under a child's looking glass or microscope. The poor insect would burn up instantly. Hence, man -as now strictly organic- restricts his own interaction with Creator, his own ability to walk with --and yes, in a way, restricts the fullness of that omnipotence directed toward him.

            James.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              There are a couple interesting points you make. One is that the sacrifices are voluntary. In what way? Sure you can refuse and then what? Wait for he hammer to come down on your head?

              You talk about an agreement but who agreed? It seems a bit one sided to be an agreement.

              So according to your study, why did god make us mortals exactly?

              1. jacharless profile image83
                jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Brian,
                My apologies for a slow reply. To answer your questions:

                -why did Creator made man mortals exactly?

                He did not, man made himself mortal by indulging his own brain. Man became a slave to an organic machine, that was designed perfectly to do one thing -process light. Man became stoned on information, exemplified by Adams response after "it" happened. (still makes me laugh to this day). Then paranoia set in, etc. Adam is said to have lived nearly 1,000 after the inception. Essentially 1,000 years for the drug to wear off and mortality consume him.

                --the Agreement
                The Agreement is said to have been made between Adam and Creator. A blurb describes this when Adam is told about the "Tree" and its effects prior to the Adamic Inception. Several other Judaic documents elaborate on that topic. Ironically, yes -the Agreement is very one sided. It favors is man. That was the purpose of the Agreement to give man ability in an immortal state. Post inception, as you might discover, the ability to escape the mortal effect and regain immortality.

                Again, the Agreement is in effect continuously. Added to the Agreement was the Covenant. Added to that was the Law. The Law came to govern "sin" until the Covenant could be fulfilled and the restoration of the Agreement.

                The Agreement was and still is. It cannot be changed. Because Creator is immortal, he cannot judge by mortal means, else he is a hypocrite to his own ways and therefore cannot judge mortals by immortal rules. Immortal rules are those which adhere to the Agreement of "Walk With Me". The Covenant was voluntary and the rules of the it simple: "I will bless you and you will live if you still desire or at least attempt to Walk With Me". Hebrews everywhere are taught this, know this and have clung to it for ages. If they allow Creator to bless them they are, if not, they are not. The "hammer" does not exist in real Judaism. Neither does the afterlife.

                When the Law was set in motion, the Law demanded atonement -blood for blood, mortal for mortal. The Law judged then the works of mortality. The Law did so and still does judge mortality. When the Law got out of control it became a religion, rather than a lifestyle. That religion caused many problems for the Hebrews and other folks too. It became so big, it makes the Vatican look like a shanty. Ironically, Catholicism is the reinvention of Lawful Judaism. It is here the concept of the afterlife was infused into Judaism from Vedas and other pagan rituals in present day Ethiopia, Libya, Egypt, etc and the surrounding northern regions.

                What Christianity is attempting to do is be restored to original Judaism of Covenant. Covenant was a lifestyle comparable to the Agreement, less complete immortality. That Covenant is often termed Mercy or Grace. It is essential gifts given with no "hammer". Note the multitude of believers leaning on teachings and such of the same ideas. Note also, if you will, covering of the Ark of the Covenant where the Law was sealed forever, the staff of Aaron and the Manna. It is called the Mercy Seat or Throne of Grace. The Law was wrapped or covered up forever by the Covenant, which was then sealed shut forever by the restoration of the Agreement.

                Again, the Osmosis of Grace.
                The Process:
                Agreement | Old Covenant | Law | New Covenant | Agreement

                Immortality | Morality w/ Benefits | Judgment | Morality w/New Benefits | Immortality


                James.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I take it you are Jewish then?

                  1. jacharless profile image83
                    jacharlessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Now that is offensive, Brian.
                    I am not insulted, just offended.
                    I do not adhere to "Lawful Judaism", which is actually the original meaning of Jew or Jew-ish. A true follower of Judah or Judaism "Walks with" in "Agreement" or at least accepts the Covenant. Anything else is religion. "Lawful Judaism" is useless, same as any other religion -of science or sensation. Being Jewish would simply imply following the rules because they are the rules. That means there either is fear or hope being played, like hopscotch.

                    Interesting enough, true Judaism accepts the restoration of the Agreement, by action only (the actual meaning of the term faith: action by Agreement to bring about the Osmosis of Grace). To some degree even Lawful Judaism does (which is what spawned Rome to Imperialize the sect now known as Christianity.) Christianity -particularly Catholicism- is modern "Lawful Judaism". Fundamental Christianity is where Lawful Judaism was, when Mosaic System was set in place --as it incorporates more and more pagan elements.

                    James.

                    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Sorry for being offensive. Could you reference where you got the original meanings for words like faith and Jewish?

                      From what i have come to understand  it originally meant being of the tribe of Judah and that tribe's beliefs. After all, they were the ruling tribe in the United Monarchy under David and Solomon,, and one of only two tribes that survived almost in tact, the ten other having been taken away by the assyrians and deported or murdered.

                      One wonders what the religion would be like had the other tribes had a full say.

                      So you are a believer in god and walk with him. I take it you don't consider yourself Christian either?

                      Tell me, is there a name for what you are? And how do you actually view the bible?

      18. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seems like you already have your mind made up,so there would be little point in changing it wink

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, but you might a pearl of wisdom I haven't heard. wink Can't hurt you to try.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Im working up to the pearls of wisdom ,so far I am worth far above rubies though wink

            P.S I did answer a lengthy post back there someplace..smile so I did try.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Really? I'll look for it. Surpassed I missed it. wink

      19. WD Curry lll profile image59
        WD Curry lllposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It is a great mystery. Only God can answer this question. It is like explaining a lunar eclipse to a five year old. The child will not understand the explation, but will find peace that someone big knows.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'm not 5. I think I can get the gist of it if it is logical. And how do you know we couldn't understand it?

          No I am not satisfied that someone else knows but thinks I can't know. At least tell me. Then perhaps I will agree that it is beyond me. But I am not going to assume that it is. That is kind of defeatist isn't it?

      20. peterxdunn profile image62
        peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus had to die - and be reborn - because he is based on the solar deities that came before him: such as Apollo - 'the light of the world'.

        In the older religions the sun god 'dies' in winter and is reborn - via the womb of the eternal virgin mother: Isis, Ishtar, Astarte, Asherah (wife of the Hebrew god) Ostara, Eostre (from where we get the word Easter) and Esther: goddesses represented by the planet Venus (Lucifer in latin) and the constellation of Virgo (the 'House of Bread': Bethlehem) - in the spring.

        Please note that all the goddesses names above stem from a single Indo-European root name.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          As being derived from regional myth narrative you have a good perspective as far as I can tell.  Of course Jewish myth is also part of it all. Particularly the scapegoat story in Exodus. It is probably a combination of many myths and many factors.

          1. peterxdunn profile image62
            peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There is a view developing among historians of the period that the Jews were the descendents of the Hyskos (might be Hyksos) people: a loose collection of tribes of nomadic herdsmen, that the Egyptians referred to as the 'Shepherd Kings'. These invaded and took over a part of Egypt between 2000 and 1,500 BC. They were eventually driven out by Thutmosis the third. Interestingly, Tutmosis was succeeded by one of his daughters, not a son.

            Also interesting to note is that: in order to get his temple and palace built, Solomon had to ask King Hiram of Tyre, a Canaanite (modern day Palestinian) to send some of his skilled artisans/stonemasons to oversee the project. Why didn't the Jews: whom the Bible says built entire cities in Egypt, have the necessary skills to build their own temple? The answer is of course, that the Jews were peripatetic tribesmen who would rather usurp - by slaughter - someone else's cities than build their own.

      21. 0
        stephenroyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        i am not good in a conversation that
        is like shooting bullets with each other.

        i would rather have it the way we do it in
        a group project, not a debate. but you've
        got a good question. it took me around 10 minutes
        to digest it lol.

        also different denominations have different
        interpretations too.

        ===

        "If the Christian god is omnipotent then why would it need to order the murder of it's son so that it can forgive?"

        -maybe your first point here is if God is omnipotent, why CAN'T he forgive
        us without the blood of His Son. that makes him not omnipotent anymore.
        why not accept us saying sorry then it will be good to go. am i right?

        -then, is the second point is why shed the blood of His Son.
        could it be interpreted as why contradict the saying that God loves His only Son.
        or why allow a good man to be tortured by the bad ones. am i able to get it?

        i want to know first if the way that i interpret your question
        is similar to the way you interpret it. if i got it maybe we can exchange
        some opinion. it will not hurt to share what's in our minds.

        ===

        No Christian can answer this because it is utter nonsense.
        But I challenge any christian to give it a try.

        -which one is "nonsense" for you? the claim that God is
        omnipotent or the need for the shed of blood of a good man, or both?

        ==

        there are no trick questions there. i would like to know
        those things first before engaging in a conversation.

        it will be helpful to know the perspective
        and frame of mind of each one of us. it is rare to
        find good questions about this topic.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You digested it rather well. Both to the nonsense issue. Please continue. No bullets is fine with me. wink

          1. 0
            stephenroyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            thanks. at least we are expecting a nice conversation
            that might help us find more answers. some reasons behind
            the reasons that are given by bible schools and traditions.

            lets expect some violent reactions from our readers here.
            i know many people can't accept wrong opinion. lol

            anyway, i don't have any "rock solid" answer.
            i will just share my opinion based on the books
            and some of the teachings that i have heard.

            i am not going to give you the links or the names
            of the books, because i can't. its been years
            since i've read some of them.



            Both to the nonsense issue.
            1. issue on that omnipotence
            2. why kill a good man for the bad ones

            additional nonsense, possibly.. (just got this on my mind
            when i read again your question)
            3. why blood
            4. why the Son

            so i will be sharing some thoughts
            on these 4 issues

            ===

            my answer/opinion for each (i will just use the common
            Bible since historians and some government accepts it)

            again.. these are mixed with my opinion.


            1. issue on that omnipotence

            god is omnipotent but He can't totaly wipe out himself.
            or He might be unwilling to to that. for me omnipotent means
            god is unstoppable. the basis of all. call it infinite energy
            or life source.

            even though he is omnipotent, he can't go against
            his own law/promises. unlike our existing government that the
            laws can be edited by the existing officials. he can do some
            work around but still his word has to be followed.

            *oh my, since the 3 Persons can be tackled here
            which could take libraries to prove right or to prove wrong.
            this allows him to send one person while the other
            is in a stable condition.
            --we can skip that out for now smile


            2. why kill a good man for the bad ones

            -as far as i can remember the requirement for
            the old testament sacirifice for the sins of the
            people of israel are animal sacrifices. like birds,
            rams, sheeps, etc. it is a must that all of the animals
            are "without blemish".

            the animals are not the sinners but they are dying in exchange
            for the life of every person that the sacrifice is made for. for
            the millions of the people there you can imagine the waste
            of life of the animals for the people. in the long run you
            can calculate it might not be sustainable.

            even it will be sustainable, God is not
            happy with the mindset that the people
            are not able to hide from him. like this:
            "we can do as we please because we have
            enough animals to sacrifice"

            so God decided that there will be one sacrifice
            for the sins of the people inluding those outside
            israel. in other words outsiders can join now.
            the good thing is after this, the people will get
            the Holy Spirit which will help them follow god
            easier. the still small voice as called by others.
            no animal sacrifices is needed anymore.

            god said that he will write his law on the hearts
            of the people, not on stone anymore (the tablets)
            this is what the holy spirit is doing

            this is the one time all in one bloodshed.

            why not use a very good breed of cow or goat?
            -it has to be human, it is not fair if its not experiencing
            the same troubles as we have

            --omg again. lets not expand the Holy Spirit questions here smile


            3. why blood

            why not use gold, oil, gems or public service to pay
            for the sins. it is more convenient.

            maybe.. since god is spirit, he want life in exchange
            and not materials things which can be valued using
            money.

            till now we know that there is still no price
            for someone's life, even though there are people
            paying for the death of some. that is different.

            in other ancient tribes, they are also using blood
            of animals and people to drive away bad spirits
            or ask protection from them.

            it could be.. blood is very very important to God
            because the life of a creature is in the blood.
            this is why he don't want the blood to be eaten
            instead, use it for atonement of sins.


            4. why the Son

            why not kings or wealthy virgins whom people
            will simply throw on the mouth of some volcanoes.
            or why not torture and crucify someone else.

            it is because they are disqualified. they have
            the violations/sins on their own making them
            a sacrifice with their own "blemish".

            the Son is said to be not been able to commit
            any sin that makes him a sacrifice without blemish.
            he do not have the original  sin because
            sin is being passed by the father. Eve was tempted
            but sin entered the world through the man.

            since the Son entered the world without
            a biological father (Mary is a virgin when she got pregnant),
            that made him qualified to the Lamb.


            what the... your question is able make domino effect
            to the other topics. smile

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Well thank you for you explanations and thoughts.  Yes, all subjects end up being related so you drift from one to another. Like six degrees of separation. lol...

              Omnipotence is impossible because there are always limits. This is shown by the old question: Can a god create something so heavy he can't lift it? He loses omnipotence no matter what the answer because there are limits to what anything can do.

              So omnipotence is does not exist and can not exist. However, you could call it the most powerful thing that exists. No reason a god has to be omnipotent. The Jews did not see him that way. Not many cultures do see t heir gods as omnipotent.

              But Christianity needs omnipotence so it can say god is not ruled by any laws himself. Obviously if he has limits he is ruled by laws like nature is, like energy is.

              But Christianity doesn't like that. Yet it would perfectly explain the rest of our problems if god could not do life, existence, any other way. That would also take guilt from him.

              But Christians insist on omnipotence so god must be directly responsible for all acts including ours because he knows all in advance even before we are born and he creates us the way he wants us. If we sin it is because he wants us to.

              If he knows all in advance then there is no way for us to change anything and we have no free will. Not because he knows the future with absolute certainty, but because it can be known. If e can change it then it can not be known with certainty even by a god. this is a paradox Christianity has created for itself but doesn't understand.

              So you see the problems with omnipotence and the rest of the dogma of Christianity. It would be much simpler for Christianity if it dropped that idea. But it is too late. wink

              Again, the rest of the problem is explained in t he same way. If a god can do anything then the way he chooses to do things can be seen as either moral or immoral. If he is ruled by laws then he can only do things one way like nature does.

              1. 0
                stephenroyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "But Christians insist on omnipotence so god must be directly responsible for all acts including ours because he knows all in advance even before we are born and he creates us the way he wants us. If we sin it is because he wants us to."
                -->i have met a lot of people like this. blaming God all the time.
                in the bible it is said that God does not tempt people.

                "So you see the problems with omnipotence and the rest of the dogma of Christianity. It would be much simpler for Christianity if it dropped that idea. But it is too late."
                -->maybe changing the definition of "omnipotence" is a good idea.
                in my denomination, omnipotence is means all powerful. same
                like what you said, the most powerful. God can do everything what
                he wants

                but He can't lie (it's a sin). because He knows everything, he can't learn.

                --> there are thousands, if I'm updated, of Christian denominations
                around the world. they are creating their own interpretations
                and even bible versions. i admit, its frustrating to meet
                people in the same faith using the same words but have
                a very far definition.


                "If he is ruled by laws then he can only do things one way like nature does."
                -->yes. even though he created the rules he does not violate it.
                he can't make 3 + 3 = 5. it is always 6 smile
                in my denomination, even though there are things that
                He will not do or can't do, he is still omnipotent (most powerful)


                i might assume you have met Christians from different
                denominations, especially those who have their own
                versions of scriptures.

                out of topic
                like one denomination that i know that have
                different interpretation on one of the
                ten commandments. they can make their members
                worship idols/false images of god because of their
                created interpretation.lol




                we have shared our thoughts and i can't
                see anything weird or non biblical with your reasoning.
                (based on my denomination)

                you know about the blood, sacrifice,
                the right view of gods power, and the
                freedom that he is giving everyone of us
                to choose the path that we like.

                our big problem is how omnipotence
                is being taught by different Christian denominations
                and the way they reason out based on
                tradition.

                for us God is omnipotent and
                a God of order. he does not demonstrate
                power by violating laws. we have a serious
                problem in the word "omnipotence" sad
                the way it is defined and explained varies a lot.

      22. Paul Wingert profile image78
        Paul Wingertposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        How did this story ever go from Jesus being executed by the Romans for treason, claiming to be the King of the Jews, to (seems like) volunteering to die for our sins?

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Good point. But that is how religions are built. wink

      23. ediggity profile image61
        ediggityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        GOD did this to demonstrate sacrifice.  That he was willing to sacrifice his own son for the sins of man.  That man should recognize this sacrifice, and live their life according to his word.  This is almost incomprehensible, because direct human sacrifice is practically non existent.  One can scarcely fathom that a man would consciously sacrifice his own life for the benefit of others.

        smile

      24. 59
        boilerboy48posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I would hazard to suggest that God will do what God will do. It is not mine to reason why. However, I often wonder the same question. One thing that I have heard others say is that in order for justice to show mercy there must be sacrifice of innocent blood. If that is the case, I would suggest that the way the son died was less important than the fact that he died. The how is less important than the act itself. God sacrificed his son to the sting of death. The son learned every aspect of life. That he died is the point. How he died is less important.
        Not that any of this matters, God will what God will.

      25. emrldphx profile image60
        emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You don't understand the meaning of the word omnipotent. I already posted this elsewhere.


        The greek word that is translated in the NT in 2 Corinthians and Revelation as 'Omnipotent' or 'Almighty' is:



        In the OT, the following is used:



        If you have never studied the Bible with the companionship of a lexicon, I highly recommend it. You can delve much more deeply into the meaning of the words. Unfortunately, in translation, much meaning is lost.

        Both of those terms could easily be translated into the concept of 'Being able to do anything which is able to be done.' It doesn't necessarily mean God can do anything.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I prefer Jewish translations of the OT. wink I understand your idea of what the word means.

          1. emrldphx profile image60
            emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So, you want to discuss the validity of the Atonement, which is a NT topic, while discounting the NT entirely?

            And what translation exactly do you prefer? Shadday only means most-powerful, not necessarily the same as all-powerful. Tell me what scripture exactly you prefer and we'll go from there.

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Wonderful, God has sent a forum warrior who not only knows his scriptures, but can actually work where the enemy whispers his venom without getting phased.

              I look forward to your forum posts, and unlike most of the enemy proponents, you write hubs as well.

              Light blue touchpaper and withdraw!

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The Christians have taken it to mean both all powerful and as you do just the most powerful. You are correct that the Jewish version of god tends toward the most powerful rather than all powerful. 

              But you brought up OT and how it should be read with the accompaniment of a lexicon. Many of them are Christian lexicons explaining it all from a specific Christian angle. I merely said I preferred  reading the Jewish translations and lexicons of the OT.  I didn't address atonement as such as far as I remember.

              I even like reading some of the literal translations out there.

              1. emrldphx profile image60
                emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                The atonement, the death of Christ to pay for sins.

                Can I ask what lexicon you prefer? I just have one I use, I don't know much about possible other versions.

                I knew a man who could read almost any language, including many living and dead near-eastern languages... he always said that reading the OT in hebrew was a fascinating experience and can't compare to translations.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The Hebrew Bible in English according to the JPS 1917 Edition is the version I read. There is a great on line resource at :

                  http://www.ancient-hebrew.org

                  I wish I could actually read ancient Hebrew. That would be great.

                  1. emrldphx profile image60
                    emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks for the link, that wasn't one of the resources I've seen before... more and more things to learn about every day smile

                    I'm on a journey toward financial independence... when I reach that point, Hebrew and Aramaic are two languages I definitely need to learn.

      26. Greekgeek profile image98
        Greekgeekposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        CG Jung has an interesting answer. I don't think it's right, but it's still a fascinating thought-experiment by a Christian (and a son of a minister) grappling with this issue.

        It's a small book called "Answer to Job."

        Jung's argument, as I remember it, is that what God did to Job -- made a bet with the Devil that the Devil couldn't shake Job's faith, no matter how much God tortured the poor guy-- was cruel, evil, and callous. God justifies it at the end of the Book of Job by verbally abusing Job into submission -- "How DARE you question me?! I'm GOD! I know best. You're just a speck of dust, compared to my almightiness!"

        But really, the story, which is a parable, shows God striking a deal with the Devil to abuse a good man. Additionally, God kills Job's wife and children and livestock. No amount of post-Job editing can truly make up for that. (In later editions of the story, troubled scribes sometimes add that God brought the dead back to life and/or gave Job a new wife and kids.)

        Jung's oddly appealling argument is that the Old Testament God needed to grow up. There are times when He does not bad things to good people, His own followers. He seems capricious, arbitrary. The faithful try to explain it away by saying, "God works in mysterious ways," and that it's not our place to question (that's basically the point of the Book of Job). But, says Jung, perhaps God finally realized -- hey, this isn't fair.

        So God Incarnated himself as a human, to find out what human suffering feels like. He wasn't simply atoning for mankind's sins. In a way, He was atoning for his own sins against Job, and against humanity. Having learned what it is to experience mortality, to be human, to suffer and die, God now has a better understanding of His creation and knows, truly, what it means when He smites us like a fly. So God is now more compassionate than before.

        A fictional story -- a myth, if you will -- but it's an interesting solution to one of the most basic dilemmas of most religions: theodicy.

        1. emrldphx profile image60
          emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Interesting...

          The explanation that makes sense to me is that God is Omnipotent(Hebrew word 'Shadday' meaning 'most powerful'), which causes problems. We think of omnipotent as being able to do anything, but 'most powerful' doesn't necessarily mean one can do anything. I explain it as 'being able to do anything which can be done'.

          For instance, I don't believe that God can violate universal laws. One of these would be creating matter from nothing. I assume most universal laws we don't know of yet.

          I do believe that one of these universal laws has to do with 'good' vs 'bad'. I think there are things we do that, for lack of a better term, stain our soul. Once it is stained, we have no ability to clean it. That's why I think Christ dying was absolutely necessary. Through some process, Christ actually took our stains upon himself, and through another process, removed them from himself.

          So the answer is, it makes sense if you assume there is some universal law that requires it.

          1. peterxdunn profile image62
            peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And did we stop sinning as a result of Christ's sacrifice? Did the killing stop? Christ sacrificed himself to save the world - to wipe out 'all our sins'. This means that he took on the sins of those that didn't believe in him or the Christian god. This means that killing non christians is as much a sin as killing christians. Yet christians - at the behest of their church - have killed innumerable people down the ages. Did your christ sacrifice himself for nothing?

            1. emrldphx profile image60
              emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Did I say evil was eradicated? Of course we still sin. What's your point?

              My opinion is Christ took on all the sins of everyone who comes to him for forgiveness.

              1. autumn18 profile image68
                autumn18posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                So people (Christians and non-Christians) will continue to do what they want. The bottom line is that all of our sins from before we were born and forever were forgiven.  We are free from going to hell and we can join God and his son in heaven as long as we accept that. If we agree with that we are saved?

                1. emrldphx profile image60
                  emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  The final act of cleansing for any particular sin is the moment in which we humbly and honestly ask God for forgiveness. That's the end of that process for each sin. I'm not saying we are all perfect automatically because Christ died for us.

                  Keep in mind this is just an overview of my beliefs, we could go very in-depth with scriptural reference for each point.

          2. peterxdunn profile image62
            peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And did we stop sinning as a result of Christ's sacrifice? Did the killing stop? Christ sacrificed himself to save the world - to wipe out 'all our sins'. This means that he took on the sins of those that didn't believe in him or the Christian god. This means that killing non christians is as much a sin as killing christians. Yet christians - at the behest of their church - have killed innumerable people down the ages. Did your christ sacrifice himself for nothing?

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this


              Did you?

              Nobody stops sinning, the just sin less, if we stopped sinning we would be perfect, and none are perfect except God.

              But sin LOST it's grip on humanity when Christ took it's power, and ONCE any human chooses to accept the atoning sacrifice of Christ for themselves and elected to do Gods will NOT THEIRS from there on, they are 'covered' by Christ in the eyes of God.

              Electing to do Gods will does not mean we will do that in every situation, we are human and we err.

              But we can elect to sin less, and to repent when we do sin... who do you repent to?


              Did you stop it, do you stop it?

              I think you probably are trying to stop it with these posts, but it's a lonesome task on our own, and as you know the sheeple will not hear you, nor us, when we make them aware that THEY are the reason the killing continues.

              Yes the Rothschild's and their minions are the principal cause of the worlds wars today and have been since Waterloo, before they discovered that starting wars and then lending the money to fight them was a great investment, wars were mainly a local affair for the top dogs to fight over the rights to tax peasants, since then they have been just business.

              Normally a Rothschild war has them lending funds to both sides.



              Yes He did, and all the world needs to do is accept that sacrifice and it would be free from the worlds rule over their lives, it's not an exclusive club and all are welcomed.



              Agreed, you were given a 'Get out of Jail Free' card and all you need to do is claim it, and stop doing your will rather than Gods.



              Agreed, and the Crusades where a manifestation of how the enemy has corrupted the traditional church over the ages.

              No religious leader can find an instruction to kill others in the new testament, and anybody who uses a bible to justify killing, must use the old testament to do so.

              Believers do not kill for Christ, we may be required to kill for the protection of others, but nobody can claim it was Christ that told them to kill anybody - therefore anybody killing in Christs name is either deeply deceived or using the name to cover their actions.

              GWB was a classic case of hiding behind a bible to start an economic war, and your 'skull & crossbones' Presidents have no right to use the name of Christ to justify their warmongering. There are reasons why a President must declare war, but GWB did not have them, and neither did his father.



              You know full well He did not, Christ did it for humanity, all of humanity, but they have to recognise the fact before they can see their lives and the lives of others changed.

              1. peterxdunn profile image62
                peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                In Revelation: the last book of the NT, St John has Christ say of Jezebel's children, 'I will kill them with death'. These are the words of your 'saviour'.

                St John goes on to describe how millions will be killed by numerous apocalyptic events. This is god killing millions of people (all of humanity - your words) that are supposed to have been 'saved' by christ's sacrifice on the cross.

                Your bible only makes sense to people who have abandoned any attempt to apply critical reasoning when reading it.

                1. aguasilver profile image88
                  aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  All of humanity that are belonging to Christ will be saved, the rest, who have rejected Christ, will be caught up in the events that occur once Christ will have requested by God to call time on humanities rebellion.

                  The choice is there for all humans who wish to escape 'all these things' right up to the moment Christ returns.

                  Your choice.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    That reminds me of a guy who also made similar predictions.

                    "Harold Camping Is Not Sorry
                    He wasn’t wrong, he says: God was."

                    http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi … _not_sorry

                    lol

                    1. aguasilver profile image88
                      aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I think Revelations trumps Harold Camping, and I will trust God not man.

                  2. peterxdunn profile image62
                    peterxdunnposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    aguasilver you are simply making statements. You are not presenting an argument.

                    1. aguasilver profile image88
                      aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      That's because I am a witness, not the defence attorney, all I need to do is report what I have seen, the judge and jury will decide on the validity of my statement.

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          A perfect portrayal of Job at last. lol... But I don't agree with Jung.

          From what I understand it is original sin we are forgiven and thereby are able to go to heaven and be forgiven all other sins if we ask.

          But if god had to die to find out what it is like for humans to suffer it looks good on him.

          No conscious god that created the world where all things must kill to survive and where all things suffer can be forgiven for it's cruelty, 

          Now I accept your universal law theory though that means god is ruled by laws and that is not what most Christians would accept.

      27. Judah's Daughter profile image88
        Judah's Daughterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I haven't read the myriad of comments here, but have you considered that God bought the Church with HIS OWN BLOOD?  Acts 20:28 "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the Church of GOD, which HE bought with HIS OWN BLOOD."  Kind of throws out the child-murder accusation altogether, doesn't it?  May the LORD our GOD be thanked and praised for what He has done for us.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sure you thank him. You take advantage of the suffering and death of an innocent so you don't have to pay for your own sins. Is that moral? I don't think so.

          1. Judah's Daughter profile image88
            Judah's Daughterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Heb 9:22 "The Law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."  In the Old Testament sacrifices had to be those without defect.  Even if we were willing to pay for our own sin with our own death it would not suffice for our holy God.  There's only One HOLY ONE and He shed His OWN blood for us.  This is His Law, not ours.  For this, we should know the great love of God and seek to please Him by dying to our selfish nature and allowing Him to live His holiness through us, for we only become the righteousness of God in Him.  2 Cor 5:21 "For He hath made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              So there was no sacrifice. He was a god so he didn't really die. It was all theatrics.

              1. Judah's Daughter profile image88
                Judah's Daughterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                We are made in God's image.  One day your fleshly body will die and return to the dust; your spirit will not.  Even at the resurrection you will have an incorruptible body, not one that dies.  Jesus' body did not see corruption; He was raised from the dead in an immortal, incorruptible body, the first-born of the new creation.  Everyone is of the old creation until s/he is born of the Spirit, at which time s/he, too is a new creation, a new 'Adam', so-to-speak.  That's REDEMPTION, praise God!

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes.... Well.. Thanks for your opinion.

      28. gabgirl12 profile image61
        gabgirl12posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        God's word sais that 'we are to give an answer for the hope that we have' 1 Peter 3:15. ok Slarty I have an answer for you. You might not like it, you might not accept it, but its an answer and its up to you whether its something worth meditating on. God did not order his son to be murdered. He was the 'messiah'. God sent his son to die on our behalf. But in scripture it also reads in Matthew 20:28  “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”  He volunteered so God sent him. In the context of your question it appears that you believe that God took him by the throat and forced him to be murdered. God is a loving God and part of that love was that His son would die but not limited to death he would rise up from the grave and be given 'the name above all names'....the name of Jesus. I hope this answers your question, and if it does not, then ask God to manifest Himself to you, and He will. It wont always how we want, or in ways that we expect but in the end God is sovereign. He's on the throne no matter what we say or do and your question is an obvious suggestion that you would like to know more about it. smile Hope it works out and happy hubbing Slarty!!

      29. Rudra profile image58
        Rudraposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I cannot answer this question otherwise many Christians will be offended. Since I am not a Christian, you guys will come after me like you did to Saddam Hussain, Gaddafi etc.

    2. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      Come in spinner! lol
      Let me be first!
      Because he is omniscient he can overcome his own omnipotence?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Regardless of whether it can do that or not, it is irrelevant. I should have probably just said why would it choose to have it's son murdered just so it can forgive us?

        I think the idea that it chose to have it's son murdered so it could forgive us is worse than if it couldn't do it any other way. But if they admit it could not do it any other way then it can't be omnipotent, and Christians don't like that..

        Either way I can only see their god as one very sick fella because of this part of their myth. lol..

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Agreed! Just decided to have a bit of fun with it. lol
          I need sleep...... enjoy your thread! smile

        2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
          Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The Mormon view (if you choose to look at the latest revelations) are publicly available to STUDY (and pray about, and ask question from those who are versed in it) in the book of Abraham, in the Pearl of Great Price. This is available because Salvation is Free (2 Nephi 2: 4)
          “And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.” Redemption, however, is NOT. There is a difference, you know?
          Here is a link with where to start looking
          http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/council-in … p;letter=c
          Consider the heading “Council in Heaven”. That’s the decisions are made. Of course, these intelligences, under the Most High God, sanctioned Heavenly Father’s plan, and His spirit children are thus free to choose repentance and salvation in order to gain each their own level of Redemption or, if you utterly reject the infinitely sagacious plan, and choose to be enslaved by the Father of lies, who wants every soul to be miserable like unto himself, then Perdition may be in order for your soul.
          Remember, if you start choking (like swine sometimes do when they inhale their pilfered grub, or dogs do when they turn to consume their own vomit - the “natural way” vis-à-vis spiritual discernment) with this meat, then please go back and grow a little more with the milk before you graduate yourselves to this level of understanding, in your “studies of comprehension”.
          Peace and good tidings; there’s lots of milk available (and lots of meat, too).

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well how about you tell me instead of making me read about it? In all the space you took you probably could have explained it twice by now; )

      2. 0
        kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        buddy, so confused again  hmm:

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Not surprising Kimberly. It is always confusing in here. smile Wishing you well. smile

          1. 0
            kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            big_smile

            off to sleep

            you sleep well and dream in colour!

            big_smile

    3. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago

      To create a conundrum for atheists?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Not for atheists. We don't think it's nonsense. It is or should be a conundrum for theists. It is both a pity and amazing that it doesn't seem to be. You all suspend logic for it. Are you afraid that if you really thought about it you might see how wrong it all is? It is morally reprehensible. The fact that Christians refuse to understand that is astounding.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry. lol... that should read: We think it's nonsense

        2. 0
          Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'm not a theist. I'm a realist. smile

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            And how is claiming that a god did anything being a realist? wink

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I don't make that claim. However; the argument is reasonable, depending on the angle. You choose to argue one angle, so therefore chose not to consider their logic. Without being able to approach a subject openmindedly you can't expect a productive dialogue. But, you probably already knew that. smile

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have yet to hear their logical answer, Emile R. . I have asked it many times and have never been given a logical answer. There is no "their logic" vs my logic. Logic is logic. Things follow or they do not. 

                I think it is a fair question because it goes to the root of the religion. It's a question that I had when I was very young and part of why I am an atheist. A small part, but it all added up over the years.

                What would being open minded about it mean to you? I'm not clear on that. I am more than open to a logical answer. I am asking no more than one be provided. I am beyond being a novice and trying to learn what they mean. I have studied religion all my life. I would like them to think about it for once in their lives. They have probably taken this question for granted.

                So now it is up to them to try to think and try to justify their belief to themselves. Not to me. I'm not the only one reading this thread. Perhaps their answers will be revelations to others.

                But they can't do that by crying about bait as if that concept means some\thing. lol...

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, if you start with the premise that there is a God, your logical train of thought can meander down a different avenue; wouldn't you agree?

                  But, I assume that the extent of your argument is that a full blown God took human form; hung out with man for thirty some odd years, suffered a gruesome death, took a whirlwind tour of hell; came back to hang out with man for another month or two and then headed home. No worse for the wear.

                  That about sum it up for you? That's what I see. It's a flat argument. It appears to begin with the premise that people are idiots. I hate to let that seep into my philosophy so I do try to understand how they see it; that is if I want to effectively present my point.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Well honestly now, don't Christians think atheists are fools? Yet for me to think the theist is a bit delusional and irrational is somehow worse?

                    Well I'm not even saying they are fools or irrational. I am suggesting their religion is. Just because some one is of a mistaken belief doesn't make them stupid. I think you agree.

                    All I want for them to do is explain in logical way why their god needs a blood sacrifice in order that it can forgive

                    1. paradigmsearch profile image91
                      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Religion is man-made and therefore screwed up. Get over it. smile

                    2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      she said
                      "Well, if you start with the premise that there is a God , your logical train of thought can meander down a different avenue; wouldn't you agree?

                      that was well said of her

                  2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
                    Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Your perceptiion here is accurate. The progenitor of this forum has gone to class without his pencil kit (which includes an eraser, for the mistakes one makes while learning). Then he get shuffly trying to defend his notion that he doesn't need an eraser, or pencil, or open ears, etc ... all the prerequisites for attendance in a learning environment, let alone starting up you own school, like he has.

                    1. 0
                      Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      I don't know about that. I think it's a simple case of evangelical atheism. Evangelicals on both sides tend to suspend good manners in their quest for their version of the greater good.

                      It's all about the love. smile

                    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Instead of whining about how I have baited you all, why doesn't anyone answer the dang question? lol.. . It's turning into a joke and you Christians are doing that by not answering the very simple question.  Why is that?

                2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
                  Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  One must give in order to receive. That’s why God dunnit, you rube. You insult others’ intelligence by trying to set them up with a sincere answer (people give you the benefit of the doubt, that you have actually tried to understand), and then condescend them with your smug arrogance. If you want to learn more, don’t be fighting with your teachers and their goodwill; or go back to reform school.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You really are a silly beggar. lol...  All you have to do is answer the very simple question. The fact that spend line upon line unable to do anything but complain says the world about you.

                    I suggest you answer or admit you can't. It's not that difficult to be honest is it? Even for a Mormon? .

    4. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago

      Hey Slarty,

      Many people make up their own definition of a god. So, what's the point? Before you can actually converse with someone about the god they supposed believe in, you must find out what exactly they believe. I mean, come on, even Christians cannot agree that other people are Christians, simply based on what is believed. roll

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well that's true. But no worries.  I don't think I need to figure out which god they believe in since this particular myth is specific to Christians. Other religions don't believe it and it is not part of their myth.

        So this only applies to Christians.

        I am not interested so much in which variety of Christian takes up the challenge. It is irrelevant . They can individually either come up with a logical answer or not. wink

        1. seamist profile image81
          seamistposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I do consider myself a Christian. Although I struggle with alot of questions. One of my biggest questions is if God knows everything, why did he create us in the first place and all the misery that has followed? Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him? He destroyed other people in the Old Testament. I don't think most Christians have a good answer for any of these questions. I surely do not. In fact, I think it is very hard to be a Christian. A strong faith considering all the difficult, unanswered questions is very difficult to develop. I've often wondered how other Christians develop such a faith because I struggle all of the time with it. I think those Christians that have an unquestioning, childlike faith are lucky. That being said, at the same time, I think a life without God would be sad.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well I thank you for your honesty. I do not agree that life without a god is sad. I see the totality as being amazing and awe inspiring even more so from my perspective than if it was created by a god.

            Why do you think it would be sad?

            1. seamist profile image81
              seamistposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Call me weak, but I want to believe there is a higher power to help me, and I want to believe there is something after this life other than death, but as I said earlier, just because I want to believe it doesn't mean it makes sense to me all of the time. I guess I look at it terms of Pascal's wager. If God and the bible are true, I am on the right path. If they are not true, as long as I don't force my beliefs on others and strive to do what the bible asks of believers, who have I hurt? I think by trying to love others and forgive, it has only made me a better person.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Nop. I won't cal you anything. You made your point and I accept it. wink

                1. seamist profile image81
                  seamistposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I appreciate that. I am curious...what do you think is amazing and awe-inspiring about life if we look at it without a God? Do you believe in reincarnation or after we die, do you believe we just cease to exist. I read your first article in your series about God. It was good. I was just too tired to comment at the time.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    No. I don't believe any of those things. I don't think humans are the be all and end all of the totality. We serve it whether we like it or not in all we do.

                    Energy is eternal, but the I is not.

                    What do I think is amazing about the totality without a god? The same as you do with a god. Look up to the stars to find wonder. Look to nature to find it. It is awe inspiring. Love is amazing. Family, the mysteries yet to unfold.

                    I don't think there is a difference whether there is a god or not. Nothing changes for us either way.

          2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
            Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God did not destroy Satan, because Satan is necessary to provide the opposition to good; if one were not exposed to evil, how could he choose to follow the good?

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              What a crock of shit. lol...

          3. mhaydock profile image78
            mhaydockposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The answer is simple. God created us to have free will. To simply destroy satan solves nothing. But to banish him to the earth was to remove him from God's favor.  Satan was God's favorite, his most beautiful of all the angels. But pride destroyed satan when he wanted to be like God. In God's omnipotence, he knew that mankind would need a consequence for his decision to rebel against God. That's the function of hell. It's where souls who rebel against God and refuse to choose God will go. If  you get rid of the time out chair, will that make your children behave? Not that I'm suggesting God wants us to turn to him in fear, but truthfully, it should be fear of what we truly deserve that Christ paid the price for on our behalf that should cause us to bow down on our faces and thank God that he didn't give us what we deserved. For your final question, I'll use myself as an example. I knew that even though I wanted children, it was going to cost me sadness, pain, and probably disappointment. All children disobey. It's a given. But knowing that, I had them anyway. I'm not omnipotent, but it's a given that at some point they will do something wrong. I truly believe that God wanted to create mankind knowing that he would have to come down to earth as a man to redeem them. I don't know why because I'm not God, but I don't think he regrets his decision.
            As a final thought, I also have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that satan loves to keep these questions alive in our minds for the simple purpose of drawing our attention away from the beauty of God's love and try to make us doubt the truth of God by questioning why he does what he does. So forget those questions and focus instead on the person of God and what he did for you and just love him.

    5. 60
      Arcjahadposted 5 years ago

      this one is easy first the creator is the Christian God he is everyone's Creator period whether you believe in him or not . Secondly the messiah wasn't murdered he gave up his life there is a difference read the scriptures for your self and you will understand this.

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I read the scriptures for myself. What I found was a psychotic murderer. smile

        Murdering his own son was only a tiny part of the story. He also wiped out all life around him whenever he had one of his fits of rage. A very unstable invisible mythical monster this god thing!

        1. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
          Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Doctor Dummy to the rescue!

          1. Cagsil profile image72
            Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Apparently you lack self realization with your post. Just figured I'd point it out. wink

          2. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Keep your pathetic insults to yourself.
            The swine one I let go by, but this demonstrates how shallow you really are.

            Nothing to say apart from wot the "good book" dictates.

            1. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
              Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry Earnest, I was testing out one of my Pseudonyms, Monikers, and Oxymorons.
              I know you are big enough to get a chuckle and a giggle now and again, right?

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Have you read the bible? Jesus asks to be spared the ordeal. Then he goes ahead with it. Sounds like it was planned by god for a purpose according to your religion.

        He had to die so your god could forgive. I am asking why? What does a god need a blood sacrifice for?

    6. recommend1 profile image70
      recommend1posted 5 years ago

      I try to keep out of the insult-an-idiot threads as much as possible but this is a good question.  Why would it be necessary go to through all that drama to forgive mankind for being human when a short appearance in the sky with a great booming pep talk would have had much better results.  Especially if accompanied by a few lightening bolts onto a few selected houses where sinners might reside ?

    7. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      "Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive"

      We really need to stop this crap.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You need to answer the question or admit you do not know the answer.

    8. wilmiers77 profile image60
      wilmiers77posted 5 years ago

      Slarty, it's simple to me. Abraham came thousand of years before our Savior Jesus, the Son of God. Completeness is unto Jesus. Abraham was choosen by God to be the Father of many nations. God knew that He would not actually allow him to sacrifice his son, but instead was establishing a standard for Faith. It is impossible to please God without faith; we can never totally comprehend God ever...strong faith is required.

      This exercise in FAITH was for Abraham and us until the Christ came to establish the Blood Covenant...in Jesus, we know who and what to believe; there is no need for a test in order to establish a new standard or reveal the standard desired by God. Jesus is our human standard in all things COMPLETELY.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So you are saying you don't know because you don't know the mind of god. Fair enough,.

        1. wilmiers77 profile image60
          wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Slarty, I totally disqualify myself because I inadvertantly commented on the wrong son, and you were referring to the Son Of God.

          But, as it goes, I do accept your response.

          No entity can completely know the mind of God. I personally have my beliefs and some are very common. My response to why did God demand the death of His Son in order to pay for our sins and redeem us to God again is as follow. Some denominations teach that it took a perfect life because Adam was given a perfect life and committed the orginal sin, disobedience. This is reasonably acceptable to me. But, if we look at the faith aspect, than sin is an act of unfaithfulness. So, for us humans the act of being crucified for a belief is the maximum show of faith in that belief; the finality to increasing faith. After the resurrection all humans had no excuse to not belief in God, and salvation was at hand. Until another human die for a belief and returns from the grave, Jesus is unique. Of course my argument is moot since Many have received the Holy Spirit of God; confirming the redemptive power of Christ Jesus.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Well at least all people who allegedly saw him rise from the dead. Still it does not explain why a god needs any kind of blood sacrifice in the first place. It's barbaric,don't you think?

            To complicate matter Jesus is supposed to be god so god had himself killed. Not a single word of this myth makes any sense to me.

            1. wilmiers77 profile image60
              wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Slarty,

              Christ was sacrificed as a ransom for us to return to the glory of God. The nature of man since Adam is sinful without end. Numerous persons will qualify as being good, but this is only "relative good" as compared to the common man; these persons is not Godly good without any sin regardless of it's relative insignificance. Jesus didn't accept being called good when He was in the flesh. He said that God is only good, and that He listens to every word from His Heavenly Father which is the only One who is good. Surprised!!!?

              Remember, the blood sacrifice was for man, not God. God has given us free will, and desire that we eventually use our own free will to love Him only. Man, as things were going, would have never turned from sin and focus on God continueously out of love for only God. This would require maximum faith and the possession of the Holy Spirit who comes to the person as the person's faith dictates.

              Therefore, human's redemption required that they know that sin is separation from God and a death sentence. The Word of God is about Jesus, our Savior who teaches us what sin is to a more than sufficient degree for us to return to the glory of God. Each individual most accept salvation and love God continueously. Secondly, Jesus had to die for us and be resurrected to reveal what is maximum faith required by God. We are now in the period of Grace; giving us time to repent and accept Jesus, the Son of God.

              Slarty, if you can teach your beliefs; promising to rise from the grave and stay among us, than maybe you could supercede Jesus. Wouldn't you need faith enough to die proving that there is no other stronger faith?

              God require perfection, and Jesus is a substitute for each of us because none of us is perfect now and never will be in the future as God requires. We return to the glory of God thru Christ Jesus. Each person must repent and accept Jesus as their Savior. Each person can have a comforter, the Holy Spirit, now in this life. Victory is their!

              God required that His Son be sacrificed for our redemption due to our free will shall not ever stop sinning, leading unto destruction and death. The death senctence placed on Adam would never be lifted without the Son of God being put to death by man, and be resurrected by God, His Heavenly Father; establishing the New Covenant by Him who knew no sin.

              God accept you by giving you His Holy Spirit who was possessed by Jesus. This is the dynamic second heaven...so, heaven is at hand by substituting Jesus, the Son of God, for yourself NOW.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Ok. I get that Jesus was supposed to be perfect and god wants only perfect things. But that does not explain why. It only explains things as the religion tells us. Sort of anyway, Christians have a lot of different interpretations.

                So the sacrifice was for man not for god. But not really because it was for god. If you read your bible you will note that Aaron put all the sins of his tribe unto a goat and sent it into the desert to be killed by the evil one out there. The other perfect sheep was sacrificed to god as an offering.

                The Jesus sacrifice is the same thing. The scapegoat that has all the sins of the world, not just the tribe on his head. But there is no second offering. He is perfect so he absorbs original sin for all.

                Now. Explain why a god would need that kind of sacrifice to forgive us. Or why it would want any offering at all for any reason. Can a god not just forgive like you or I can? If not why not.

    9. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      We really need to stop this crap.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I wish you would.

    10. lucieanne profile image80
      lucieanneposted 5 years ago

      Ooh it's a long time since I was on here, but I do love a good religious debate so I've got to put in my two-penny's worth. First of all. I apologise in advance to all the 'Christians' who may or may not be offended by my comments,- I don't mean to be insulting.
      The books of the old testament were written so long ago that the people who lived in those days didn't know any better. The human brain wasn't the sophisticated organ that it is today. Logic would not have existed, and science hadn't even been dreamed about. We're talking about a time when people believed the earth was flat, and no-one had any concept of space travel. When the alleged 'son of God' came along, all the old testament was rendered obselete, becaquse 'Jesus' moved the goal-posts. It was no longer acceptable to make human sacrifices, as He Himself was about to be sacrificed for the good of the entire human race. - But hang on a mo - he's not dead. He left his grave and walked amongst his apostles before being whisked back upstairs.
      IF you believe that Jesus was the son of a virgin (another debatable subject)and IF you believe he performed miracles and was put to death on a cross for the sake of ridding the entire human race of their sins, how come so many wars have been fought in the name of 'Christianity'? Wasn't it the Spanish Conquistadors (christians) that wiped out the Aztecs,Mayans and the Incas, destroying everything and killing thousands of innocents just because they didn't want to convert to Christianity? Oops. Not a very loving 'christian' act. Isn't it the 'Christian' Catholic priests who sexually abuse little boys? Another act of goodness in the name of Christianity? I think not. So, It would seem that God sacrificed his only son for nothing, because there is still sin and corruption in the world. I think I'd be a tad vexed if I were God, and I'd killed my boy for nothing. But anyway, he's got him back now, so all's well that ends well eh?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for answering. But in fact if one reads the bible, the sacrifice of Jesus was so god could forgive original sin, not the say to day stuff. Before that due to original sin no one could get to heaven. So god has his son or himself murdered so he could forgive original sin. We know that. But what the question is, is why gods needs blood sacrifices so he can forgive.

        I can forgive people for all kinds of things without requiring blood. Can't you? Why can't god?

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          God has always forgiven sins. Forgiveness of sin is not a new thing in the New Testament. The reason for the sacrifices was to 'cover' the sins of the people, to forgive their sin. Sin has always been an important issue with God and the Old Testament had its way of handling that and the New Testament has a way of handling sin also.
          To your mentioning "the sacrifice of Jesus was so God could forgive original sin" this could be off base a little if my understanding of original sin [a phrase i do not use] is correct, it has to do with adam and eves 'orginal' sin. Even if we don't use the word 'orginal' and keep the rest, i would like to say, that Jesus died on the cross primarily to end/fulfill the Old Testament Laws and that whole OT dispensation. Since sacrificing animals is done away with, God forgives sin by invitation. We cannot sacrifice animals, buy we can repent, which means we turn about, or from our lifestyle and with different thoughts and intentions we purpose to live more godly lives.
          You might find this interesting reading:
               Jeremiah 31:31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

            Jeremiah 31:32   Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

            Jeremiah 31:33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

            Jeremiah 31:34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the

          LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

          another Prophecy fulfilled

    11. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      "We really need to stop this crap." smile

    12. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive

      Kill this thread?

    13. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      Give me a better word than "kill".?

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Terminate?  Eliminate?  Exterminate?  Whack?

        big_smile

      2. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        sacrifice

    14. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      Oh, please.

    15. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      Another dead thread.

      1. paradigmsearch profile image91
        paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    16. EmVeeT profile image80
      EmVeeTposted 5 years ago

      Your question: If the Christian god is omnipotent then why would it need to order the murder of it's son so that it can forgive? No Christian can answer this because it is utter nonsense. But I challenge any christian to give it a try.

      Hi.

      This is my first time visiting this Forum and I must admit this thread makes me sad. I thought Hub Pages would be a place where good writers gather to discuss great subjects, while using language that is compatible, commendable and conducive to a decent debate, sharing, not derogatory, not diminutive, but strong, clear, concise, interesting, and influential dialogue, capable of communicating a concept (and perhaps a frustration) without belittling anyone else's point of view or position.

      I am a Believer in The G'D of The Bible; and I will tell you this: There are far too many factors, components, elements, thought processes and emotional as well as psychological considerations related to and foundational to any platforms a person could take before even beginning to answer your question. In fact, even if I could make a valiant effort (and I believe I the background knowledge to do so), it would take a book of pages, just as it has taken me, what could be considered, a lifetime to comprehend, within a surface scratch of human comprehension, exactly what that answer would necessitate.

      Oh, I could spend an hour or two typing out a few facts I've discovered about the depths of a love that is inimitable in mortal terms, but somehow I don't consider you'd be sensitive to anything I wrote about the Love of G'D. I might attempt answering your question by bringing attention to a topic based on spiritual warfare, and an age-old battle that exists outside the sphere of human detection (for the most part), and is the source of your 'question', but unless the readers of a such subject have a foundational knowledge of both The Bible and Spiritual Warfare, the explanations may seem surreal, or even unnatural (not to say supernatural and therefore, plausibly disputable), and irreconcilable with any attempt to answer your question, in your mind. Or, I could suggest that rather than engaging the other members of this Forum, Christians and non-Christians alike, in a discussion meant to ridicule, disguised as something else, you might consider bringing your question to this very 'god' who you deem insignificant enough to call "it", not expecting a reply, because in your view, this god doesn't exist, which means you would close the doors to any response He may choose to give you... and while He, on the other hand, has the option and ability and  to penetrate the darkness surrounding your current visual capabilities... surprising you... with His Presence, or Power or the mere fact that He cares about you enough to answer... not because you deserve it, but because He Loves you despite the fact that you have chosen a rebellious stance against Him, your attitude shows resistance to such an encounter. Of course, He could decide not to answer you either, ignoring you completely, because your question, quite frankly doesn't deserve an answer, not from an Almighty, yes... Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent G'D, Whose existence doesn't depend on whether or not you believe He Is Who He Is. 

      I could do any or all of these things... or at least I could attempt them (as you are so certain that I would fail); however, I choose not to do any of these things.

      Yours, is what I would define as "an arrogant question", asked in an attitude that doesn't truly expect anyone to reply. You await a victim, with baited breath and a sharpened sword, only too ready to strike back at the thought processes, experiences, or understanding that may have been garnished in, what might be considered, a lifetime of making an honest effort to know this G'D better by anyone who isn't you.

      "Even though I believe, "sometimes the best answer is no answer", I will have to admit my human frailties bid me respond to your dare. I completely believe you're just waiting to jump on and slash at my comments, despite the fact that I have it in my heart to inspire you with this half decent response, despite the fact that I have no real intention of making this thread more important than it is, (but am probably doing so anyway) turning your 'question' into another log on a fire that was ignited centuries ago, a fire that will not be doused cold until G'D decides it's time...

      In the meantime, let me repeat, "your thread makes me... sad... for you".

      No. I don't believe, you really want an answer. You simply want to appear more intelligent, more bold and stronger than anyone who has the courage to call him/herself, "Christian". 

      Enjoy the rest of your debate.

      G'D Bless you.

      1. grinnin1 profile image82
        grinnin1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well said. It seems that a lot of time and energy  is being spent  by people who think that Christianity is utter nonsense. It seems strange to me that  a religion people so vehemently deny causes such hatred from people who do not understand.
        But Christ said that people will hate you for your belief in me. And that some hearts will be hardened. This isn't a new fight , and your perspectives on the improbability of Christianity are not new. 
        Read this thread over again from the perspective of tiny ants frantically debating the meaning of life, or the span of the universe. Anyone who claims that they understand their faith completely or denies God and Christianity  based on their intellectual idea of  what "makes sense"  (based on what criteria, exactly?)or what they consider utter nonsense seems rather
        narrow minded to me.
        I don't believe anyone who claims to completely understand who we are, why we are here or where we will go and why . I do believe that humans were made with the spiritual capacity for intelligence and faith- and that those gifts, given to us by our creator, were not meant to be mutually exclusive.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Then for god sake make me understand by answering the dang question and stop whining. lol...

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's a simple question and I am so sorry you are offended by it or think it too esoteric for your consideration.

        Why does a god need blood sacrifice so it can forgive? This should be easy for you. Why isn't it?

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hello Mr. O'Brian. I am sitting here, having read your most recent question.

          You sound as though you really care to understand. I could, of course, be reading more into this one sentence than you meant to inscribe; but I sense you're sincere.

          This is why your next comment confuses me. You say, "This should be easy for you." Then ask, "Why isn't it?"

          I thought I explained why the entire concept cannot be easily answered in my first post, where I pointed out that there are many facets to this one question.

          The problem here isn't so much that this question should be easy for 'me' (I'm guessing) (and oh... it wouldn't be easy for anyone, unless you could manage a months worth of discussions in which uninterrupted, derogatory free language could be entertained). The problem is, any answer on this Forum wouldn't receive a welcoming rejoinder.

          There are too many injured parties in on this conversation, people who have participated in the counterfeit Christianity engaged in by individuals who tried it, couldn't or wouldn't commit to it, were probably versed by others whose foundational precepts were wishy washy and therefore lacking the stability, comprehensive facilities and communicative skills to teach others what should have been taught.

          No decent dialogue can tackle all that and survive.

          I would like very much to attempt to seriously answer your question, but under different circumstances, sitting across from you (let's say) at a table with tea and freshly baked muffins in front of us. In other words, an atmosphere where you and I could look at each others faces, hear the tones of one another's voice, surrender, in like manner, to the idea of meeting one another on equal ground, not because we have to, but because it would only be fair. We have such diverse beliefs.

          As it is, I am rather busy. I am the wife of a very strong minded business man, who works very hard to keep our lives balanced, despite the fact that I have four children, one of whom is severely disable, for whom I care give, who is also a writer and who is rapidly digressing into a place I cannot think about.

          I cannot answer your question at this time, in all fairness without robbing that child of my time. As I said in another post, I already feel I've spent too much time on this thread, being drawn, yes, by your question, and also by the belief that deep down inside of you, Mr. O'Brian, you really want to know.

          That may not be true of course. I don't actually know you. You usage of the "it" in a place I would put a(n) "He" might have been designed to goad me into retaliating rather than replying with the attitude your question deserves.

          In any case, I will think about it. Answering will not be easy. Whether or not I choose to do so will depend on what follows this post, in the way of replies.

          I don't have time for games. I work as  a hairstylist. I participate in Cultural Events as a singer/songwriter. I came to HubPages to write. I haven't even posted one post on my Hub Page up to this point.

          So... you see. I could try. Would I?

          I've endured my share of disparaging remarks based on my faith, by those around me who consider me silly to believe in an Almighty G'D when my own child is disease stricken, something that would go against the nature of "a kind and loving G'D", according to some, "if He were a kind and loving G'D".

          I still believe He Is! What's more, I have understood more about life as a result of her severe state than I could have in a dozen lifetimes of living in perfect health. So has she.

          She has recently (self)published a collection of poems that she has written in the time since she was first diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, because she can no longer type on the keypad of her MacBook Pro. Her writing is simple, clear and deeper than most of the many conversations I have (so far) read on the few threads I've ventured to read.

          Life is meant to be an adventure; and while her adventure is filled with suffering, which fills my adventure with anguish of a different kind, we still believe there is adventure awaiting. Life doesn't begin or end with what we know, comprehend, learn and apply. These factors are the filling.

          G'D BLESS you, Mr. O'Brian.

          1. 0
            jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You are busy to answer the question, yet got time to post this drivel?

            1. recommend1 profile image70
              recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You should not be too hard on him/her.  And you should not be too hard on all the other christians who publicly proclaim desperately ill relatives, or are suffering terminal cancer, or have had miraculously cured illnesses that they have invented.  It takes time to weave it up and then rely on it as a defence against criticism, Among all the liars for jesus there must be the occasional real one, just maybe this is it ?

              1. 0
                jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                You are right. smile
                In their desperation people cling to any straw available, not something to laugh at.

                1. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  ...no straws gentlemen. They break.

                  1. 0
                    jomineposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Your straw breaks more easily, if you care to use your brain.

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I understand your situation and  your point. But I don't think it is that difficult to give a rational explanation as to why a god would need any kind of blood sacrifice.

            I still see it as a rather easy thing to answer if you have one. If you not then a simple I believe but I don't know why god needs blood sacrifices will do.

            I understand how complex religion is but this is one question. I am not asking what motivated it all, I know that.I am not asking the history or the complexities of the religion. I am asking one simple question. Why would a god need any kind of blood sacrifice to be able to forgive?

            Are you saying he could not have done it any other way? God is restricted to doing things a specific way? What is so complicated about this question for you, EmVeeT?

            1. EmVeeT profile image80
              EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Dear Mr. O'Brian, I've made my decision as to whether or not I will attempt an answer for you based on several factors. Here it is:

              I've come to the conclusion, (not because of any derogatory remarks on your part, but because of various comments posted in this thread) that you want to believe what you believe.

              You have a right to that. You can say whatever you like. You can mock or misinterpret, reinterpret and goad. You can ask more questions and challenge in a way that ridicules until ... well, I'm guessing until someone makes a strong attempt to clear the matter up for you, at which point, you can then decide how you're going to cut that effort down.

              As for me, I also have a right to believe what I believe and to rest in the realization that my faith is an integral component in my equation for fulfillment of life. You say you don't need to know "what motivated it all", because you "know that". I'm glad that you're not basing your statements on notions, but on what you know. This leads me to believe we have been raised in two very different schools of thought, and lived two very different lives. Of course, this has no relevance. You seem to be a fairly intelligent individual, but intelligence doesn't always play into the faith equation. Some matters go deeper.

              If there is anyone out there who can penetrate your train of thoughts long enough to actually cause you to consider what is being shared, (I may be stupid to see things this way but...) that person would have to be someone you respect, trust, love, and do not see as a competitor vying for mastership over your audience or your mind/heart/body/soul/spirit.

              In my miniscule way of thinking your question is not simple and should not be addressed lightly. Besides, there is one more thing you may not have thought to consider (since in your view ~there is no ...well, you know...and because I believe there is...)  He doesn't owe you any explanations. He doesn't require your approval, your permission, your understanding, or your interest. He Is Who He Is anyway. In which case, why do I, or any other Believer in Christ Jesus or G'D need to explain to you? You're smart enough to find out on your own. I did.

              The fact that you are (probably) choosing not to understand why G'D allowed His Son to die, and why His Son chose to do so, makes me wonder how far you would be willing to go if someone you loved, really really loved, was in dire straits and required a living sacrifice from you in order to save another life.

              While I took the challenge, in part, on the hope that you might recognize the question you're asking is not simple, I now believe this does not have to do with irreconcilable differences that necessitated, yes, a blood sacrifice, but it may have to do with you strategizing tactfully in order to bring any fair response down to its knees where you can chop off its head.

              I'm reading a few of the other responses and am convinced that those of you who are of the same mind take great pleasure in proving your superiority above those who must be simpletons to believe in G'D.

              If I've taken the wrong view of you, please forgive me. Or don't. Your choice.

              In the meantime, G'D BLESS you.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Very nicely thought out response. I assure you all I am looking for is a logical answer that explains why any god would need a blood sacrifice in order to forgive anyone any thing.

                I do not actually believe anything at all. I have opinions based on evidence or rational thought or logic. Those opinions can and have been changed in the past by logical arguments and or evidence.

                We are very different people with different mind sets and I dare say you seem pretty intelligent yourself. Which is why I read though all your longish posts even though they did not include your own opinion.

                You and god do not owe me an explanation of anything that is true. But you are here responding to my question even though you feel it is not worth asking or risking your understanding on.

                I simply ask the question and expect people who think it is a useless question to ignore me. These forums are a bit rough but I can't help what people say. I don't care what they say. I can pick out the gems from the junk.

                I will not insult others if they do not try to insult me. I enjoy both good honest chats as well as a good scrap so I  can get along with anyone. ')

                The thing I find interesting is that as soon as one puts into different words the concepts christianity adheres to, Christians feel insulted. It is as if they do not want to hear the logical or rational interpretation of these concepts and will not hear them.

                I understand why, but for heaven sake why come to a debate forum unless you are ready to debate uncomfortable issues? I am not talking about you in particular either. Please understand that.

                Forums like these are meant to be open with no holds barred. That doesn't mean insults, it means that if I put forward my interpretation I am looking for others to give me a reason why my interpretation is wrong. If all Christians do is get insulted by a perfectly reasonable question then there is no way to have a dialogue at all. 

                Yes, Christians think atheists are delusional and most think we will go to hell. Atheist in general think Christians are delusional and dangerous because they want to take over schools and politics in a country which is secular because it is multi cultural.

                So lets be honest about all that up front. That way insults about Christian or atheists mental states become irrelevant and frankly boring after a while.

                So if you disagree with my interpretation then it is nice if you tell me why exactly in the most logical way you can. Yes you then are trying to convince me of the veracity of your argument and I am doing the same.

                What  I am trying to do is promote critical thinking, nothing else. My challenge to Christians is to tear down my arguments with better ones if they can.

                The problem I always encountered in talking about religion with religious people is that they are always trying to teach me the religion and telling me not to argue but to listen. I already know as much about the religion as most of the most devout.

                I am asking people to think about what they believe in a critical way. If they are made stronger then that's fine. If they begin to question then that's good too.

                What strikes me odd is that because of faith, people seem to see black as white where religion is concerned and yet if I were to pose the same question framed with a different set of characters other than god and his stories, then they see white as white again and black as black.

                All I want is for people to give me a rational explanation as to why.

                Simple case in point: Say a man had a lot of influence and power in society. A mob boss for example. He has had a war with other bosses, he has had people do things he doesn't want done.

                He has a weapon that can destroy every single one of his enemies. But he says to them,, if my son is willing to lay down his life for you, I will forgive all of you and not destroy you.

                Now what do you think of this fellow? What would you think of those who accepted the terms?

                You may think the son is a hero but what do you think about his father? What kind of a nut ball is he? Please don't tell me for a moment hat you would think the boss is acting morally.

                But tell the same story about a god and his son, and the god is acting out of love? Please! How is it even possible to entertain that idea? And yet Christians will get offended by the analogy. So what do you think, Em?

                1. EmVeeT profile image80
                  EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Mr. O'Brian,

                  I like you. For this reason, I would really love to give your question a valiant effort. I just doubt I can do it in a few paragraphs or even a post as 'short' as the posts you've read so far. As you so appropriately hinted, I do have a tendency to be wordy.

                  But, I like you. I think there is much more to you for which many have given you credit. Don't get me wrong... I knew there was... I was hoping... that you would present that eloquent side of yourself on this board.  Perhaps, you have on other posts/threads, but I haven't read more than a handful of posts on only two threads.

                  If you will be patient with me, I will try to squeeze something into ... oh... say... only thirty or forty paragraphs... sometime in the near future... no promises though.  This subject means so very much to me and I will only share if I can do so concisely...

                  LOL smilewink

                  G'D BLESS you, Sir.

                  1. EmVeeT profile image80
                    EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    **much more to you, for which many have NOT given you credit...**

                    smile

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok, my friend. I have a suggestion for you. Since it is going to be a long essay why don't make it in to a hub? I am sure others would benefit from your explanation. And then we can have chat about it in the comment section of the hub.

                    I am now following you so that  if you decide to do such a hub I will be notified. wink

                    May you have a wonderful day.

                    1. EmVeeT profile image80
                      EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Thank you so very much, kind Sir.

                      I've just submitted my first Hub Page. However, I didn't realize revisions would have a time limit so it doesn't end as I would have liked. Perhaps you wlll be one of the first to read my first... and 'shortest' entry in anything "hub" thus far.

                      smile

    17. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      This is another DEAD THREAD.

    18. EmVeeT profile image80
      EmVeeTposted 5 years ago

      To Recommend1

      You wrote:


      I try to keep out of the insult-an-idiot threads as much as possible but this is a good question.  Why would it be necessary go to through all that drama to forgive mankind for being human when a short appearance in the sky with a great booming pep talk would have had much better results.  Especially if accompanied by a few lightening bolts onto a few selected houses where sinners might reside ?

      LOL...

      I could tackle this a little less seriously.

      LOL...

      P.S.

      I realize there are several typos in my first post. Didn't realize you don't have an edit option once a reply is submitted.

      ... yes... I'm human... and full of faults.

      LOL.

      1. recommend1 profile image70
        recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I was not suggesting that you were full of faults - by insult an idiot - I mean the various flat earthers who post their ridiculous beliefs, the occasional hate spewing, bigoted, right wing so called christian and other half-wits who come here to have their lack of reasoning insulted by anyone able to think past the first full stop.

        Welcome to hubpages smile

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ... I'm sorry. I didn't even consider you were calling me "full of faults".. I was calling myself that. I hate...Hate... HATE when I miss typos.

          As for the others you mentioned... they are only human too. Some people express themselves poorly. Others make statements they wish they could retract ... a lot of "so called christian and other half-wits" are going to have to do as I did... learn from their mistakes. This subject is much too intense to take lightly. Worst of all, a lot of individuals, blinded by religious pride are not willing to base their statements or comments on valuable dialogue, they are just interested in winning their point, and looking good by making others look bad.

          We've all done it. I'm working on trying not to anymore, whenever possible. 

          Thanks for the welcome!

          I hope I come out alive.

          LOL

    19. EmVeeT profile image80
      EmVeeTposted 5 years ago

      To Seamist (I hope I got that right)

      You wrote:

      I do consider myself a Christian. Although I struggle with alot of questions. One of my biggest questions is if God knows everything, why did he create us in the first place and all the misery that has followed? Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him? He destroyed other people in the Old Testament. I don't think most Christians have a good answer for any of these questions. I surely do not. In fact, I think it is very hard to be a Christian. A strong faith considering all the difficult, unanswered questions is very difficult to develop. I've often wondered how other Christians develop such a faith because I struggle all of the time with it. I think those Christians that have an unquestioning, childlike faith are lucky. That being said, at the same time, I think a life without God would be sad.

      I'm just going back to the thread (after replying, in a manner) and reading some of the other posts. I found several interesting.

      You say, "you consider (your)self a Christian" but you "struggle with a lot of questions". That's good. Actually, that's necessary. No faith can grow without some of those questions being answered. I've been a Believer in G'D and His Son, Jesus since I was seventeen. That was a long time ago, and I can't even count the number of questions I've had. What I can tell you is this: You know that Scripture verse that says, "Seek and you shall find"? It's true. If you really want an answer to your pressing questions, you can have some... no... not all. We're not meant to know everything, but we can know a lot more than we think.

      If you consider most of us only use a tiny portion of our brain, and for many that usage is expended creating/devising/generating and even encouraging some sort of selfish gain, that has nothing to do with G'D or the reason He created us, well... your questions are not only valid, they are important to solve.

      I doubt very much you'll be able to do by entertaining the conversations of atheists though. Christians and Atheists are too busy defending whether or not G'D IS. If you really believe in Him, then that question should be resolved and you should consider moving on to the next question. You see, faith is just that... faith. And it takes just as much faith to believe there is no G'D, as it takes to believe there is. Once you've determined your position though, you need to spend some time trying to understand what led you to make that decision.

      Studying the Word of G'D is a good place to start, but that is a life long study; and unless you have the benefit of one or more ancient Biblical language, or the discipline to engage in some definitive word studies and cultural comprehensive studies, you may find yourself grappling for longer than necessary.

      You ask:

      Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him?

      This is a very interesting question, one I asked myself many, many times. The resolution to this question is one I hope to use in a book I am planning to write in the near future. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but it is a good, solid, common sense theory, and like all theories, it has holes, but it has also served as a basis for growth in my walk with G'D over the years.

      I can't answer all your questions on this Forum. I wouldn't care to even try. There are too many individuals who consider Believers in Christ prey on this thread... and in the world. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid of them, their potential attacks against anything I might write... I just have better things to do with my time.

      In fact, I didn't expect to spend so much time on this Forum as it is... but I am only human and I was drawn by that initial question. I could end up burned, but I don't think so. I KNOW what I believe. I BELIEVE what I believe. I have good reason to do so. I have been studying The Word of G'D and a variety of theological subjects for almost thirty years.

      My faith is my own. I don't push it on anyone (anymore). I've learned that most people who are hungry for truth will search until they receive an answer that causes them to come away from what I call "religiousity', in order to experience something more real, something that satisfies the gnawing void deep in the spirit of man.

      I've found it. It's what people have died to defend, despite the hundreds of thousands who nominally present themselves as something they've only followed superficially. No one can explain it to those who don't want it. Articulation does not exist for all things. Some things rise above human communication... and while that sounds irrational, it's my truth.

      I identify with your confusion. I live(d) it too, in diverse measures, and in various seasons of my life.  However, the deeper I dig to understand certain concepts attached to The Living G'D, the more I understand things that seem unreasonable to some, and inexplicable to others.

      Don't give up. The deeper you go with your studies, done in sincerity, because you really, really want to know THE G'D Who Created you, the more your realization of His Infinite Wisdom, Boundless Grace and Immeasurable Mercy will grow.

      G'D bless you.

      1. seamist profile image81
        seamistposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi EmVeeT

        Thank you for the time and concern you've invested in your post to me; I appreciate it. It sounds as if you're alot more knowledgeable about your bible than I. I have read alot here and there throughout the bible, but I've never been disciplined enough to deeply study and read the whole bible entirety. Don't worry, I will try to continue seeking knowledge. As I said earlier, it is a struggle for me trying to develop a deep, strong faith. I'm not sure why that is, but I wish I was like other Christians and did not have all the questions. I know the bible says it is impossible to please God without faith, and I sometimes wonder if he is upset with me for questioning so much. For instance, since I am disabled and struggling financially, I have been praying for healing and prosperity. When you don't recieve it, some religious leaders believe it's because of a lack of faith. Yet, if God loves us and wants us to be healthy and have an abundant life, when you're trying the best you know how or can, why doesn't he just grant the prayers? Other Christians seem to be able to keep a more positive attitude, so it make me feel like something is wrong with me. I should probably hush because I know these discussions irritate others, and that is not my intention. Take care...



        ]kmm k

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hey Jkmm k!

          You say, "I wish I was like other Christians and did not have all the questions".

          Please NEVER NEVER NEVER become like any Christian who does not have questions. There's no room in life for such arrogance. Faith is not about not having questions. Think about it.

          How can anyone resolve the many internal struggles that formulate in the brain without a question and a resolution?

          You won't always find the answer you're looking for. That's what prompts so many people to be angry with G'D. Sometimes, you will find answers that cause you to wrestle with who you are and why you are that way. Still, in His Goodness G'D has given each of us one thing that most people forget He Gave us when they discuss Him: Free Will.

          We have choices. We can decide to work on the relationship with Him that, yes, He allowed His Son to die in order to provide humankind. The truth about relationships is that they won't work unless you invest yourself into them. Not many people are willing to do that anymore, with people they see, let alone a G'D they are unsure even exists.

          Some questions will seem irrational. Some of the answers you come up with on your own will seem impossible. Often, the two will never converge. However, in those moments, when reading your Bible, The Holy Spirit opens up certain truths to you, you will find yourself one step closer, one heartbeat nearer to understanding that, while we cannot possibly understand this G'D Who is so much greater than any human can conceive, He has also made a choice: to be our friend, despite the unequal terms.

          He's Holy. We're not. He know it. We have to discover it.

          You say, "the bible says it is impossible to please God without faith, and I sometimes wonder if he is upset with me for questioning so much."

          He's not upset with you. He wants you to ask. That's why He made you as He did, with all those questions swimming around in that head of yours. He gave you a brain and He means for you to use it. Do that.

          You say: "I am disabled and struggling financially, I have been praying for healing and prosperity. When you don't recieve it, some religious leaders believe it's because of a lack of faith."

          I say:

          Continue praying, but never let others tell you that the fact that you haven't received healing is because you don't have that faith. If they do, ask them about their faith. If they are so faithful and spiritual and strong, then why can't they help you discover the truths that will make you more faithful, more spiritual, more strong?

          You see, many leaders don't follow what they preach. Some are so superficial in their own walk with G'D that they should simply give up their position and go to work in the real world.

          Don't get me wrong. There are many spiritual leaders who are sincere, but they haven't reached the place where they understand what it takes to receive something as powerful and life changing as "healing" has the potential to be.

          I am believing G'D for a healing for my child.

          Does it mean she/I will receive this most amazing gift? Only time will tell, but I've decided not to base my faith on whether or not we get what we've asked. G'D IS more than capable to answer our prayers (yours/ours). Sometimes though, He has a purpose beyond our own. What might that be? I couldn't say. I wouldn't think of it. More than this, I'm working on investing as much of myself into understanding the precepts relating to Divine Healing as possible. Yes. I believe G'D Wants us healthy, but we live in a fallen world. There's more to healing than most of us understand. I'm working on scratching the surface. I will share some of the insights absorbed with you, if you like, but not on a Forum.

          You ask: "...if God loves us and wants us to be healthy and have an abundant life, when you're trying the best you know how or can, why doesn't he just grant the prayers?"

          If He did, if He always granted the prayers anyone and everyone plead, would it be accredited to Him? Or would the world become more full of arrogant, self-indulgent, vain, and other such virtueless hearts?

          If you would like to take some time to seriously (and I'm not saying you haven't seriously done so before) search your heart, considering the many times/ways/reasons to be mad at G'D as a result of your disability, then take the time to lay that all out on the table before Him.

          I went through this. Sometimes, our anger blocks us from interacting with G'D, bringing us to feel distant, alone, afraid. All the while, He's right beside us, desiring to help us break out of our prison. ... and Jkmm k... prisons come in many forms. Sometimes what is a prison for most brings release to others.

          You say, "Other Christians seem to be able to keep a more positive attitude, so it make me feel like something is wrong with me."

          Many Christians "put on a happy face" because they've been led to believe that they have to show the world they're complete because of their faith. They forget that they're only human, have only ever been human, and are only expected to ever be human. No one has a perfect life. Such a life does not exist. Everyone has challenges, some are present, some are past, some are continuous. Everyone has a choice. Some bury their hurts. Others carry them out in their daily applications. Many become misled because they never deal with them. Don't be one of those. Deal with your hurts. Ask your questions. Be determined to receive your answer. You may get one. smile

          You say, "I should probably hush because I know these discussions irritate others, and that is not my intention."

          Dearest Broken Heart, why do you care if our (yours/mine) discussion is irritating others? Right now, we're discussing something we consider important. When you're a little older you won't mind stepping on toes so much, because you'll realize that each time you 'hush' up, you are reacting to them stepping on yours. smilesmile

          G'D BLESS you.

          BTW: I don't have time to check for typos... ignore them please.

    20. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      Not again...

    21. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      o Seamist (I hope I got that right)

      You wrote:

      I do consider myself a Christian. Although I struggle with alot of questions. One of my biggest questions is if God knows everything, why did he create us in the first place and all the misery that has followed? Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him? He destroyed other people in the Old Testament. I don't think most Christians have a good answer for any of these questions. I surely do not. In fact, I think it is very hard to be a Christian. A strong faith considering all the difficult, unanswered questions is very difficult to develop. I've often wondered how other Christians develop such a faith because I struggle all of the time with it. I think those Christians that have an unquestioning, childlike faith are lucky. That being said, at the same time, I think a life without God would be sad.

      I'm just going back to the thread (after replying, in a manner) and reading some of the other posts. I found several interesting.

      You say, "you consider (your)self a Christian" but you "struggle with a lot of questions". That's good. Actually, that's necessary. No faith can grow without some of those questions being answered. I've been a Believer in G'D and His Son, Jesus since I was seventeen. That was a long time ago, and I can't even count the number of questions I've had. What I can tell you is this: You know that Scripture verse that says, "Seek and you shall find"? It's true. If you really want an answer to your pressing questions, you can have some... no... not all. We're not meant to know everything, but we can know a lot more than we think.

      If you consider most of us only use a tiny portion of our brain, and for many that usage is expended creating/devising/generating and even encouraging some sort of selfish gain, that has nothing to do with G'D or the reason He created us, well... your questions are not only valid, they are important to solve.

      I doubt very much you'll be able to do by entertaining the conversations of atheists though. Christians and Atheists are too busy defending whether or not G'D IS. If you really believe in Him, then that question should be resolved and you should consider moving on to the next question. You see, faith is just that... faith. And it takes just as much faith to believe there is no G'D, as it takes to believe there is. Once you've determined your position though, you need to spend some time trying to understand what led you to make that decision.

      Studying the Word of G'D is a good place to start, but that is a life long study; and unless you have the benefit of one or more ancient Biblical language, or the discipline to engage in some definitive word studies and cultural comprehensive studies, you may find yourself grappling for longer than necessary.

      You ask:

      Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him?

      This is a very interesting question, one I asked myself many, many times. The resolution to this question is one I hope to use in a book I am planning to write in the near future. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but it is a good, solid, common sense theory, and like all theories, it has holes, but it has also served as a basis for growth in my walk with G'D over the years.

      I can't answer all your questions on this Forum. I wouldn't care to even try. There are too many individuals who consider Believers in Christ prey on this thread... and in the world. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid of them, their potential attacks against anything I might write... I just have better things to do with my time.

      In fact, I didn't expect to spend so much time on this Forum as it is... but I am only human and I was drawn by that initial question. I could end up burned, but I don't think so. I KNOW what I believe. I BELIEVE what I believe. I have good reason to do so. I have been studying The Word of G'D and a variety of theological subjects for almost thirty years.

      My faith is my own. I don't push it on anyone (anymore). I've learned that most people who are hungry for truth will search until they receive an answer that causes them to come away from what I call "religiousity', in order to experience something more real, something that satisfies the gnawing void deep in the spirit of man.

      I've found it. It's what people have died to defend, despite the hundreds of thousands who nominally present themselves as something they've only followed superficially. No one can explain it to those who don't want it. Articulation does not exist for all things. Some things rise above human communication... and while that sounds irrational, it's my truth.

      I identify with your confusion. I live(d) it too, in diverse measures, and in various seasons of my life.  However, the deeper I dig to understand certain concepts attached to The Living G'D, the more I understand things that seem unreasonable to some, and inexplicable to others.

      Don't give up. The deeper you go with your studies, done in sincerity, because you really, really want to know THE G'D Who Created you, the more your realization of His Infinite Wisdom, Boundless Grace and Immeasurable Mercy will grow.

      G'D bless you.
      Posted 3 minutes ago

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    22. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXo Seamist (I hope I got that right)

      You wrote:

      I do consider myself a Christian. Although I struggle with alot of questions. One of my biggest questions is if God knows everything, why did he create us in the first place and all the misery that has followed? Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him? He destroyed other people in the Old Testament. I don't think most Christians have a good answer for any of these questions. I surely do not. In fact, I think it is very hard to be a Christian. A strong faith considering all the difficult, unanswered questions is very difficult to develop. I've often wondered how other Christians develop such a faith because I struggle all of the time with it. I think those Christians that have an unquestioning, childlike faith are lucky. That being said, at the same time, I think a life without God would be sad.

      I'm just going back to the thread (after replying, in a manner) and reading some of the other posts. I found several interesting.

      You say, "you consider (your)self a Christian" but you "struggle with a lot of questions". That's good. Actually, that's necessary. No faith can grow without some of those questions being answered. I've been a Believer in G'D and His Son, Jesus since I was seventeen. That was a long time ago, and I can't even count the number of questions I've had. What I can tell you is this: You know that Scripture verse that says, "Seek and you shall find"? It's true. If you really want an answer to your pressing questions, you can have some... no... not all. We're not meant to know everything, but we can know a lot more than we think.

      If you consider most of us only use a tiny portion of our brain, and for many that usage is expended creating/devising/generating and even encouraging some sort of selfish gain, that has nothing to do with G'D or the reason He created us, well... your questions are not only valid, they are important to solve.

      I doubt very much you'll be able to do by entertaining the conversations of atheists though. Christians and Atheists are too busy defending whether or not G'D IS. If you really believe in Him, then that question should be resolved and you should consider moving on to the next question. You see, faith is just that... faith. And it takes just as much faith to believe there is no G'D, as it takes to believe there is. Once you've determined your position though, you need to spend some time trying to understand what led you to make that decision.

      Studying the Word of G'D is a good place to start, but that is a life long study; and unless you have the benefit of one or more ancient Biblical language, or the discipline to engage in some definitive word studies and cultural comprehensive studies, you may find yourself grappling for longer than necessary.

      You ask:

      Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him?

      This is a very interesting question, one I asked myself many, many times. The resolution to this question is one I hope to use in a book I am planning to write in the near future. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but it is a good, solid, common sense theory, and like all theories, it has holes, but it has also served as a basis for growth in my walk with G'D over the years.

      I can't answer all your questions on this Forum. I wouldn't care to even try. There are too many individuals who consider Believers in Christ prey on this thread... and in the world. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid of them, their potential attacks against anything I might write... I just have better things to do with my time.

      In fact, I didn't expect to spend so much time on this Forum as it is... but I am only human and I was drawn by that initial question. I could end up burned, but I don't think so. I KNOW what I believe. I BELIEVE what I believe. I have good reason to do so. I have been studying The Word of G'D and a variety of theological subjects for almost thirty years.

      My faith is my own. I don't push it on anyone (anymore). I've learned that most people who are hungry for truth will search until they receive an answer that causes them to come away from what I call "religiousity', in order to experience something more real, something that satisfies the gnawing void deep in the spirit of man.

      I've found it. It's what people have died to defend, despite the hundreds of thousands who nominally present themselves as something they've only followed superficially. No one can explain it to those who don't want it. Articulation does not exist for all things. Some things rise above human communication... and while that sounds irrational, it's my truth.

      I identify with your confusion. I live(d) it too, in diverse measures, and in various seasons of my life.  However, the deeper I dig to understand certain concepts attached to The Living G'D, the more I understand things that seem unreasonable to some, and inexplicable to others.

      Don't give up. The deeper you go with your studies, done in sincerity, because you really, really want to know THE G'D Who Created you, the more your realization of His Infinite Wisdom, Boundless Grace and Immeasurable Mercy will grow.

      G'D bless you.
      Posted 3 minutes ago

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    23. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAao Seamist (I hope I got that right)

      You wrote:

      I do consider myself a Christian. Although I struggle with alot of questions. One of my biggest questions is if God knows everything, why did he create us in the first place and all the misery that has followed? Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him? He destroyed other people in the Old Testament. I don't think most Christians have a good answer for any of these questions. I surely do not. In fact, I think it is very hard to be a Christian. A strong faith considering all the difficult, unanswered questions is very difficult to develop. I've often wondered how other Christians develop such a faith because I struggle all of the time with it. I think those Christians that have an unquestioning, childlike faith are lucky. That being said, at the same time, I think a life without God would be sad.

      I'm just going back to the thread (after replying, in a manner) and reading some of the other posts. I found several interesting.

      You say, "you consider (your)self a Christian" but you "struggle with a lot of questions". That's good. Actually, that's necessary. No faith can grow without some of those questions being answered. I've been a Believer in G'D and His Son, Jesus since I was seventeen. That was a long time ago, and I can't even count the number of questions I've had. What I can tell you is this: You know that Scripture verse that says, "Seek and you shall find"? It's true. If you really want an answer to your pressing questions, you can have some... no... not all. We're not meant to know everything, but we can know a lot more than we think.

      If you consider most of us only use a tiny portion of our brain, and for many that usage is expended creating/devising/generating and even encouraging some sort of selfish gain, that has nothing to do with G'D or the reason He created us, well... your questions are not only valid, they are important to solve.

      I doubt very much you'll be able to do by entertaining the conversations of atheists though. Christians and Atheists are too busy defending whether or not G'D IS. If you really believe in Him, then that question should be resolved and you should consider moving on to the next question. You see, faith is just that... faith. And it takes just as much faith to believe there is no G'D, as it takes to believe there is. Once you've determined your position though, you need to spend some time trying to understand what led you to make that decision.

      Studying the Word of G'D is a good place to start, but that is a life long study; and unless you have the benefit of one or more ancient Biblical language, or the discipline to engage in some definitive word studies and cultural comprehensive studies, you may find yourself grappling for longer than necessary.

      You ask:

      Just last night I was thinking that if the Satan is author of all the misery in the world, why didn't God just destroy him?

      This is a very interesting question, one I asked myself many, many times. The resolution to this question is one I hope to use in a book I am planning to write in the near future. Of course, my theory is just a theory, but it is a good, solid, common sense theory, and like all theories, it has holes, but it has also served as a basis for growth in my walk with G'D over the years.

      I can't answer all your questions on this Forum. I wouldn't care to even try. There are too many individuals who consider Believers in Christ prey on this thread... and in the world. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid of them, their potential attacks against anything I might write... I just have better things to do with my time.

      In fact, I didn't expect to spend so much time on this Forum as it is... but I am only human and I was drawn by that initial question. I could end up burned, but I don't think so. I KNOW what I believe. I BELIEVE what I believe. I have good reason to do so. I have been studying The Word of G'D and a variety of theological subjects for almost thirty years.

      My faith is my own. I don't push it on anyone (anymore). I've learned that most people who are hungry for truth will search until they receive an answer that causes them to come away from what I call "religiousity', in order to experience something more real, something that satisfies the gnawing void deep in the spirit of man.

      I've found it. It's what people have died to defend, despite the hundreds of thousands who nominally present themselves as something they've only followed superficially. No one can explain it to those who don't want it. Articulation does not exist for all things. Some things rise above human communication... and while that sounds irrational, it's my truth.

      I identify with your confusion. I live(d) it too, in diverse measures, and in various seasons of my life.  However, the deeper I dig to understand certain concepts attached to The Living G'D, the more I understand things that seem unreasonable to some, and inexplicable to others.

      Don't give up. The deeper you go with your studies, done in sincerity, because you really, really want to know THE G'D Who Created you, the more your realization of His Infinite Wisdom, Boundless Grace and Immeasurable Mercy will grow.

      G'D bless you.
      Posted 3 minutes ago

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    24. paradigmsearch profile image91
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      We do not need this. What was I thinking?

      1. paradigmsearch profile image91
        paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Another thread I do not believe is dead.

        1. paradigmsearch profile image91
          paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          ?

    25. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
      Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago

      EmVeeT, YOU ROCK!
      What a sincere, intelligent, compassionate, and dignified answer! I would HOPE that you grace us more on HubPages. I'm gonna bookmark your profile and read with interest what you work to share. Thanks for taking the time to reply on this thread! I think we all could learn a thing or two from your acquired wisdom. Regards, Timothy.

      1. EmVeeT profile image80
        EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Now don't go putting me up on any mantle. Remember this: I am only, and shall ever be (on this earth) only human.

        Thanks so much for your warm greeting. It's much appreciated!

        G'D Bless you.

        1. EmVeeT profile image80
          EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I expect very soon...  bombs may drop.

          For this reason, I may not be around much to be honest. I have nothing to prove and from the look of some of the other threads (on the Religion and Philosophy Forum) , that is what I am noticing. Personal attacks defended by Scripture verses, for and/or against the faith that I treasure. Reading some of the posts has exhausted me. There are a lot of chips on many burdened shoulders.

          From my estimation, there have been a lot of people hurt by 'religion' and G'D gets the blame 99.9% of the time. I've been on Forums similar to this before. There's only one really decent way to deal with that type of banter... like one gentleman here already suggested: "keep out. 

          ...We'll see.

          1. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
            Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Check this link out below. It has been put together by someone (or group) in the know, and it defends a lot of what some people use as ammunition to support a supposedly cruel God, which we both know is farthest from the truth. It last about eight minutes, on YouTube. You may want to adhust your volume control to lower the distracting music. Also, use FULL screen, so that you can then easily read the scholarly message.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGXXvAbV … e=youtu.be

            1. recommend1 profile image70
              recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              big_smile big_smile big_smile scholarly big_smile big_smile big_smile   and I haven't even seen it big_smile

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Ah.. what is scholarly for others.... Eh, recommend 1? lol...

    26. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      The problem is simple enough.
      Some people don't believe a psychopath who is supposed to have wiped mankind out because of sin, also is said to have although omni everything made these faulty beings.
      You are asking sane people to believe that, after having made himself, an invisible sky fairy became his own son, murdered himself to atone for the mess he made in the first place.

      Then because they don't buy the fear driven dribble you accuse them of lacking knowledge!

      1. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
        Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        2 Nephi 28:16
        "Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish."
        Ripe in iniquity is the premise here, after turning aside from that which is good (instruction, i.e.: schooling).
        I'm not scared ... why should I be scared? I still SEEK to understand (seek being the key word here). Done any seeking lately? Miserable yet?

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Is that all you have? More bible babble threats from "the word" don't cut the mustard.

          You don't spot the megalomania in that quote do you?

          I mean you really don't see anything wrong with making stupid threats by proxy?

          1. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
            Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry earnest, shall I edit it for you? What would you say to me if I did that? Hey, it's time for me to bow out ... I have to go to Sunday School in a few hours. See ya later!

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Excellent time to disappear, good timing. smile Now about that megalomanic threat?
              After 3 years I am still waiting for any of you fundies to answer anything directly and truthfully.

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                now there's megalomania

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  No, there's reality. You know what reality is brothery.


                  Life without invisible sky fairies and the people who still believe in them. lol

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I was referring to this statement:

                    "After 3 years I am still waiting for any of you fundies to answer anything directly and truthfully."

                    For you to actually type this is despicable behavior

      2. Timothy Donnelly profile image61
        Timothy Donnellyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        From your hurried, incorrect response to my point on the last hub, you show a need to slow down a bit, my humble Australian, so that you don't jump around so much before you can digest things properly. "Your" sky fairy loves you too. remember, the word Gospel means Good Word, not I'll kill you horribly if you don't do this and that.

        1. recommend1 profile image70
          recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You need to go and seek advice from our resident Mormon, Goldenpath, he is reasonably polite, intelligent and has managed to give Mormons a reasonably good name in these forums.  You are undoing all his good work as you expose your self as a smug and arrogant and very wrong person.  Mormon is based on a made-up book that would be far fetched even for any other science fiction, I would suggest that you would be better answering the points and questions given to you but I know you have no answers, no credibility and no reasoning ability.

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I wish there was a way you say that with certainty without lying. You no more know with certainty that a god exists than I know it doesn't and you try to pawn off speculation as fact. Isn't lying a sin? wink

    27. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago

      PRAISED ATHEISM! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

      Not really. smile But you seem on a roll tonight and I want you to think you are doing well.

    28. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      It's in the book! smile


      God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

      Kill Brats

          From there Elisha went up to Bethel.  While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.  "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!"  The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord.  Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.  (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)


      God Kills the Curious

          And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter.  And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?   (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)


      Killed by a Lion

          Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.  (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)



      Killing the Good Samaritan

          The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill.  Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

          When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip.  But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God.  (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)


      Silly neurotic little god!

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You couldn't make this stuff up. .... Well, actually, that's exactly what happened. wink

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yep! That is exactly what happened.

          Even in those days some would have been saying "Not this old rubbish again!"

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There were a few Greeks who wrote exactly that in 600 BCE wink

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I found this link to an article written about the times by A.A.A. Webb that is interesting. smile


              http://phoenicia.org/greek.html

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I found the comments about the snake interesting. We know that egypt worshiped the snake for its wisdom attributes and we recall that Gods people were enslaved in egypt for 400 yrs, that is a long time, too long a time NOT to be influenced by egyptian ways of life. Sooooo, it is not of any amazement to me nor is it a point of denying that the Hebrew God exists, because God extricated His People out of egypt it seems logical that He would have to struggle to re-educate His people, 400 yrs of seeing snakes and other gods had to have had an effect on the Hebrews, naturally. We discover the same kind of assimilation problems after the exile of the Jews to Babylon and Persia.
                Pertaining directly to the snake and genesis 3.  If to the egyptians the snake was a symbol of wisdom then does it not make allegorical sense that a snake would have been around to introduce sin to adam and eve.
                In the same light let us look at the brazen serpent story. We can reasonably conclude that God would communicate with His people in a language they would understand.
                    Numbers 21:9   And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
                    Some say this brass serpent is a type of christ, but i disagree. The serpent was made of brass is a key point. Recall when at the foot of the mountain that moses went up in the desert the "golden" calf idol. Gold was what idols were made of because gold was connected with divine, but in this instance, God directed that the idol to be viewed was not made of gold but of brass - God was reprogramming His people that the serpent of egypt was not a god at all, even though the serpent was more or less an indication that knowledge would set them free. I happily discovered from the link that the serpent of egypt resembled the serpent in MY allegorical interpretation of the genesis 3 - the serpent does represent wisdom or at least, mans ability to think.
                So we can go on to say that yes, the Greeks borrowed themes from ages past and certainly the belief of an immortal soul that lived after this life permeated the egyptian religion, but it was not the God of the Hebrews and neither did they follow the same patterns of worship. We can look at the myths of the greek and romans and we can see similarities in their 'virgin' births but none came from a woman through her womb. Close but not exactly virgin births.
                So yes there are similarities but not because The Hebrews borrowed but rather because God had to deal with their prior religious programming in an effort to separate them theologically. As Leviticus shows - grow them up in a completely differently way of worshiping their unique singular God.

      2. sarasotadui profile image61
        sarasotaduiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I hope God will kill those who mocked Him...hahaha

        big_smile

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How incredibly charitable of you! lol


          So you hope all the people who don't believe as you do die?

          Nice!
          Very christian of you!

          1. sarasotadui profile image61
            sarasotaduiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Its not what you think... you kept enumerating God killing people..so if He really did, why wouldn't He try killing those who mocked Him?

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              It's simple. It's because it is all a myth.

              Your threat by proxy was noted. I find that sort of thing to be gutless myself.

            2. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I did no such thing. Every word is from your bible! lol

              Are you going to deny that too?
              According to your good book he has killed more than any other entity known!

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Why did Zeus miss with all those lightning bolts?

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Zeus is a myth. Just like your god. smile

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yah
                    Thank God for that!    smile

                    1. earnestshub profile image89
                      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      big_smile

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
          Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why? What's in it for you?

    29. Jerami profile image80
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago

      In  Answer to the OP   ... 

         Perty much ...   cause mankind ask it of him; at the time.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't recall that being part of the story

    30. recommend1 profile image70
      recommend1posted 5 years ago

      This thread has descended into babble.

    31. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 5 years ago

      Slarty, I'm afraid I have to agree with TMMason. Your question and OP comments seem like nothing but bait. My usual respect for your intellect has evaporated.

      For all of your apparent sincerity, you can be illogical and insulting, too. What a wicked web you weave. I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity. Is it a sham? More bait?

      Whatever! I sincerely hope there is a chance of you grokking this, but I'm not going to hold my breath for a second. Instead, this might help someone else who has more interest, respect and openness.

      -------

      First of all, it's not the "Christian god" or "it," but God (the Source, the Almighty, Alpha-and-Omega -- that which is cause but not effect).

      Who said God ordered a murder? I think you have your facts wrong, dear Slarty. The true self (soul, spirit) who was in Yehoshua of Nazareth (our sibling) seems to have volunteered. It wasn't a "hit," but a self-sacrifice. He was not a victim, but a hero. Do you know the difference between victim and hero? I wonder.

      "No Christian can answer?" That's pure bait and arrogance. Such vileness surprises me.

      "Utter nonsense?" Perhaps because you haven't really tried to understand. A casual or flippant glance does not constitute much in the way of effort. But it also takes a great deal of humility -- not a "know-it-all" attitude (arrogance). But you already know it all, right? You have declared that no Christian can answer it. You have already judged it as utter nonsense. Such absolutism fairly bristles with arrogance -- selfish confidence (the essence of ego).

      Second of all, Slarty, you place far too much significance on Homo sapiens bodies ever to understand. Original sin was all about turning from the realm of spirit and wholeness (integration, harmony) with God -- turning toward the dichotomies of physical existence (including Newtonian action-reaction). This sin was a turning from discontinuity of creation to the continuity of physical reality. Turning from "I AM," to the realm of reasons and becauses.

      One dichotomy was mentioned in Genesis -- good-evil. Others include wisdom-stupidity, right-wrong, generous-selfish, confidence-doubt, victim-perpetrator, and many others. The result of this was ego and the reliance on physical reality (later through Homo sapiens bodies). God's children are baby gods. They have His ability to create. You, Slarty, are operating from ego, it seems. You have buried the baby god within you. You have denied him -- that Holy Spirit. That condemns you, not to any physical prison, but to a much more permanent spiritual prison.

      Because of the reliance of these baby gods on physical continuity, they were spiritually blinded -- effectively dead as spirit. This was the death God talked about in the Garden.

      Slarty, you said in one of your comments, "Before that due to original sin no one could get to heaven." You really are confused. Who said no one ever got to heaven before Yehoshua's sacrifice? I suspect several dozen may have, including Moses and Gautama Siddhartha.

      You keep treating the "God forgiving" subject as entirely one-sided. It's not, because it depends upon us individually.

      I'll give you an example -- an analogy (albeit imperfect). Say, someone has a panic attack. How do you snap them out of it? Well, you don't. Only they can snap themselves out of it. We can help them achieve that by what we do and ask to get them to look at ways of calming down. But they have to decide to calm down.

      Similarly, we have to decide to wake up spiritually. But guys like Slarty are too busy baiting and "knowing-it-all." Those actions only place more scabs over one's spiritual eyes, making it ever more difficult to wake up.

      How do we wake up? We have to give up ego -- the greatest attachment to this physical realm -- the crutch which blinds us. Humility is the antidote to ego. Christ's sacrifice was a symbolic gesture of what we have to do -- not literally crucifixion or physical death -- but we have to be willing to sacrifice that pseudo-self which seems so important to so many -- that sense of entitlement that you've displayed so well with your "challenge." But there was also a power laid down by Christ's sacrifice that makes it easier to let ego go. It's still difficult, but before the sacrifice, the Mosaic Law was not yielding much in the way of spiritual results. Some may have made it, like Elijah.

      Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has given us omnipotence, too. If we willfully decide to ignore God and spirit, then we continue in blindness, seeing only through the physical continuity of action-reaction (photons, electrical impulses, activation of brain synapses, etc). The only way for God to free us from this trap is to get us to decide to do it. He cannot force us to decide. We are each in our own "panic attack" and so used to it, we remember little else. Like gravity and air, we no longer pay much attention to the ego that traps us -- the "panic attack" which separates us.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol

      2. EmVeeT profile image80
        EmVeeTposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Your comments are much appreciated. Your view interesting.

        Thank you.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I have enjoyed the question and i thank the OP for endulging
          smile

    32. Greek One profile image81
      Greek Oneposted 5 years ago

      Q "So you don't know, no one can"

      A. I am comfortable with not knowing everything.  You can be comfortable or uncomfortable with human limitations.. but you can't overcome those limitations. See Book of Job and the a lovely little piece called the Serenity prayer

      Q. "Tt's ok with you that an innocent man had to die so you could live forever?"


      A. God never asked me for my feedback as to whether it was OK.  Terrible things happen every day that I am not comfortable with yet can't control.


      Q. "You don't want to take responsibility for your own sin?"

      A. I really don't want to... but we all will take responsibility for our own sins.  Jesus' death does not it itself automatically absolve us


      Q.  "No one is claiming to be divine"

      A.  Oh, I can point out a few who have claimed to be lol


      Q.  "No one can know the mind of god  You know somehow that he (God) didn't order his sons death? Is all of that correct?

      A.  No that isn't correct...what I am disputing your interpretation of the Bible tale and the story of and purpose of Jesus' crucifixion, and your assertion that that God 'ordered' anything.  My interpretation is different from yours.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "A. I am comfortable with not knowing everything.  You can be comfortable or uncomfortable with human limitations.. "

        Sure. I agree. saying you don't know if you don't is honest and nothing to feel uncomfortable about.

        "God never asked me for my feedback as to whether it was OK. "

        Yes and no. A Christian has to accept the act as their salvation. That is like condoning the act. If you had to do nothing at all including believe it then you could say you weren't asked for feedback. Now you indirectly are.

        " I really don't want to... but we all will take responsibility for our own sins."

        So we should, of course. But if you accept Jesus as your saviour then he takes them,on because according to some you could never pay.

        "your assertion that that God 'ordered' anything."

        Christianity hinges on the idea that god sent his son to die for us so that he could forgive original sin, open the doors to heaven and forgive future sin. Correct or not?

        That seems planned. That means it was as good as ordered. Don't you agree? If not why not?

    33. lea86 profile image60
      lea86posted 5 years ago

      You know why? I 'll give you the honest answer.What is on your mind when you heartless said " Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive" , when you mentioned, " A murder " in what way he was murdered? How Jesus reacted? He forgives, He pray and He taught about love.What that is all about? Love and forgive.In what way do you think the most nobel way to forgive, get revenge and hate? or perhaps living a normal life, get respected, worshiped,praised and die peacefully wihtout a lesson or message on something that can change a life?

    34. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago

      Ah yes! The loving word of god!

      Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

          Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."  [The child dies seven days later.]



          This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible.  God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist.  What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil?  And then he kills a child!  This is sick, really sick!

      1. sarasotadui profile image61
        sarasotaduiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Remember... there is also another god in this world, and that is satan, well, if you believed him. This evil worker brings these "rape victims to rapist"  and not the God.

        And who is the cause of this worldly chaos? That is not because of the God we, Christians believed in. Our God is Holy. If he has to do something terrible to this world, we are all going to turn into ashes. Because we are all sinners. But God never did that, instead he made his son "killed" for the purpose of salvation and redemption.

        God made Jesus Christ a sacrifice to redeem us from the clutches of the god of this world,"Satan."

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Read it again!
          Goddunnit!
          It says so in the bible. Thus the Lord said, not thus Satan said.
          Do you have trouble reading the word of god?

          1. wilmiers77 profile image60
            wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            This is liken unto the kettle calling the skillet black. When God jumps in and begin to roll heads in order to bring His salvation and peace, than satan points the finger at God when in essence satan constantly kills and rapes while attempting to destroy every thing. This is satan's goal.

            Think of your earthly father. If he never chastised you, than you might be unique to every person on this Earth. Our Earthly Fathers are liken unto our Heavenly Father in such manner. Why does our parents chastise us; to prepare us for the dangers in the world and be best fit to overcome adversities.

            1. earnestshub profile image89
              earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Are you blind? Read it again!

              No father ever "chastised" by causing the rape of his son's wives!
              No mention of any satan.

              What about the women who are raped, what about the family and children?

              Why don't you just admit you don't read the bible except for the bits that support your belief, and openly deny black is black even when it is from your own source which you can confirm for yourself.

              Disgusting!

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Your are referring to the Old Testment. I repeat it was the state of men's understanding and their practices at that time. You also are referring to a specific case inwhich God dealt. This was not His goal whereas satan's goal is to kill and rape until all is destroyed. God advocated killing a select few for His salvation and peace goal. The two intents are totally opposite, and the magnitude of kill and rape is enormously on the side of nonbelievers. Even now powers that be uses force to bring about peace. So, continue your pointing at God but it shall only be for a season until God's truth ride into camp.

                So, go on and continually call the skillet black so all shall know what side you are on.

                1. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok, According to you I am on the side of what exactly.
                  Your god, your bibles words, how in hell can you twist your way out of that I wonder.
                  Certainly not with the explanation that god didn't cause as many rapes as the "unbelievers" do.

                  That is among the worst rational I have ever seen, even here! lol

                  1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                    wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    earnestshub,

                    You either roll with the Lord Jesus or with any Others. There is no neutral ground. Who told you that faith must be rational? We call those people "doubting Thomas's".

                    Now, we have debated on other hubs, and if you can recall, I have never attacked other worldviews until some one attack my faith, then and only, do I respond defensively. You have the freedom to roll any way you want; but, we all are here for only a season, and then judgement. We are always being judged in this world within our conscience until the final judgement. Each eventually must stand on their own tub bottom and be judged.

                    I choose to roll with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit until that time of my final judgement.

                    1. Cagsil profile image72
                      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Prove this statement without using anything from any religious book. Since you cannot, it is intellectually dishonest to say such things.

              2. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                How do you get rape out of this scenario... it says lie... to lay.. to bed..
                There is no rape.
                Of course this is just one area where you fail to interpret the passage other than sloppily.

            2. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How, exactly are their goals different?  They are both killing.  Your descirption looks the same to me.



              This is an odd comparison.  No 'earthly father' would kill their children.  Unless they were serioiusly demented.  Are you claiming that God is seriously demented?  If not, your argument flawed.

              1. wilmiers77 profile image60
                wilmiers77posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                "...when God jumps in...", difference is purpose and intent by 180 degrees.

                "...Earthly father...", ARE YOU SERIOUS? You must be kidding me! Start with the month of August and search in the good old U.S.A. for a case of father killing son. Research back in history about 50 years. You may need a new