This question is mostly for believers. If God exists, do you think he wants to be a bone of contention? Do you think He would look favorably on arguing about what he thinks and wants? Do you see anything 'Godly' about the religious debates?
Because, I was just sitting here and it occurred to me; if he exists and honestly wanted everyone to agree on who or what he was. It wouldn't be that difficult for him to make that happen.
Why are the religious so adamant that everyone agree with them? I know it makes you feel all pious and you imagine God smiling down on you; but do you ever wonder if you are doing the exact opposite of what He expected those who believed in him to do?
I think if he exists; the fact that he hasn't weighed in on anything throughout recorded history implies those of you who adamantly argue on your idea of his behalf have all missed the point.
My sister and I were raised in the same house, at the same time, by the same woman - when she grew-up my sister was determined not to raise her own kinds the way our mom raised us, I was determined to raise mine just as my mom raised me. When my sister and I talk about our childhood we have very different perspectives, we each see the course our mother took very differently. If we were robots or puppets I imagine we would both see the same springs or the same strings.
No one is speaking of robots. We are pondering respect and acceptance. Would you think that was the ultimate goal of a god? That humanity respect the intelligence of one another? If there is a god, he respects ours enough to leave us to figure it out, by our own means.
Thanks lone77star (did you see I finally got to answering your questions in my 'Regular, Normal Christianity ~ Man, Sin, And Spiritual Death' hub?).
Emile ~ I don't believe God has left us to "figure it out, by our own means" at all. I think ever culture in every age has tried to figure it out and history is littered with the great mass of religious notions that men have concocted, including many 'figured out' religions under the 'Christian' label . . . but these are all man's attempts to discover, find, figure out God. God doesn't respect man enough to leave man to himself and his own imagination about the nature and charter of God - man has separated himself from God and gone his own way, we think too highly of ourselves and imagine that God respects us enough to figure eternal truth out for ourselves . . . and so, when God reveals Himself to us, we think that's just one more path among all the bullshit we've invented to find God.
If we just haphazardly approach eternal truth, assuming we own the capacity to figure it out or even recognize it when we see it, if we don't earnestly and thoroughly investigate exactly what all these different religious notions present as the truth then we miss this very crucial point - they all teach essentially the same thing, every religion man has come up with offers us the same legal contract with God (the particulars are different, one says you can have 40 wives while another says you can only have a dozen, one says you can't lie another says it depends, etc) every religion basically says, if we do 'this' God will do 'that', if we obey He rewards, if we're good enough He lets us into heaven, etc.
Now, if every religious notion man concocts comes down to the same basic idea, that seems reasonable . . . man is man, our wardrobe changes, our radios get smaller and smaller, but we are all essentially as we are, man. However, in if the midst of all these same ideas there is one that is not merely different but it just the exact opposite of all others, if there is one idea that says we cannot find God, we cannot do anything to win His favor, we are without hope of knowing and loving Him, etc, it seems to me we have to conclude that either all the others are right and this one is wrong, or this one is right and all the others are wrong.
One of the greatest foolishnesses we can observe today is when people want to include Jesus among others as one of the messengers/prophets/teachers, etc, when people assert that Christianity is one legitimate path to God among many different legitimate paths to God - they all say the same thing, Christianity says just the opposite. Jesus announced He was the only way to God, that all others are liars . . . but man, thinking more highly of himself than he ought, imagining that God respects us and that we can figure this out ourselves, man lumps Jesus in with all the deceivers He condemned and reckons they are all us finding God.
Jesus is God incarnate revealing truth we could never figure out, that's why Christianity's message is the opposite of all the silliness we come up with. God does not "look favorably on arguing about what he thinks and wants" He does not "see anything 'Godly' about the religious debates" - God grieves over our foolishness, thinking ourselves wise we have become fools . . . God has revealed Himself to men, but loving darkness rather than light, we reject the truth for a lie, we muddle and rework God's revealed truth into yet another *if we do 'this' God will do 'that', if we obey He rewards, if we're good enough He lets us into heaven* man-made religion. Jesus said "No one comes to the Father but by Me" . . . and we simply don't like that, we think God should respect us enough to let us make-up our own way to Him.
So, we put you down for a bone.
Man, the bones of contention are piling up. I didn't foresee that one.
How is God, stepping out of eternity and taking on the form of His own creation, enduring mocking and beatings as we reject the actual real truth He came to reveal to us while we promote our own made-up foolishness as the truth, how is that anything close to God stratified with being a bone of contention? You don't want Him to force His will on us, you don't want Him to reveal His will to us, you are only agreeable to God respecting us no matter what and accepting whatever we make up as if it were the truth - and if God is not just like that then He is doing things wrong and is happy to be a bone of contention?!
Emile, it's like you came home from school and, not only did you not pass the test, not only did you not take the test, but you locked your teacher in the closet so you could do whatever you wanted and now you expect your mom to be pleased about and your teacher to respect you for it. Historically, at a real point in time, Jesus announced the truth, we have reliable records of that . . . He said that He alone was from God, that His message was the truth and the only real path to the only real God - all other religious notions are the same, Jesus' stands apart, alone.
If we reject that we reject it, if we don't like who God is and what the truth is, we can practice our own ideas, trust in our own empty teachings and practice our own powerless rituals - but God is God and it's silly to get mad at Him for being who He is and demand that our ideas must be accepted. Truth is truth. Simply asserting God and/or His people are not being nice if they know the truth and will not pretend that crap we make up is also the truth is a pretty lame religion. God has nothing against Muslims, wiccans, Lutherans, etc - He reveals His truth to all, it's not about Christianity against Jews or Hindus, etc, it's about God's own revealed truth or our own made up foolishness. It's all the foolish man made religious notions that want the argument - everything is ok with them, all paths are ways to God, you can believe how ever you prefer just be sincere and nice . . . it's just that one way that says it's the truth, that's the only one the world can't take. Why is that?
I already put you down for a bone. What more do you want? Bone. No bone. I've only got two categories to pull from.
Poorly planned, obviously.
I suppose that is in fact my discomfort with a simple marking me as one or the other - when you pose "Do you think He would look favorably on arguing about what he thinks and wants? Do you see anything 'Godly' about the religious debates?" there is no simple 'yes God wants us to argue about who He is and He delights to witness religious debates' nor is there a simple 'no God wants us all to agree that everything everyone is saying is equally right'.
And the reason your question, with it's two provided solutions is flawed is because it's premised on two flawed ideas; first that we own a capacity to figure it out for ourselves, and second is "the fact that he hasn't weighed in on anything throughout recorded history". The reality that we live in is that we cannot figure out eternal things on our own and God has indeed stepped out of eternity into history to reveal truth to us.
Men argue and debate specifically because they imagine they can figure out God for themselves and they reject His own revelation of Himself. God doesn't want us all to argue about who He is, but neither does He want us to reject the real Him and accept whatever anyone makes up about who He is - He revealed the truth to us, if we reject that and prefer our own notions instead, God is not happy about that, but He is not going to program or manipulate us (robots & puppets) . . . we wrestle over whose goofy notion is the right one, not because God wants or doesn't want to be a bone of contention, but because we reject the real truth that He revealed to us.
I do agree. It's like my grandmother use to say, "What you believe is for you and you alone, which was first the seed(spirit) or the soil(soul)?" It remains debated because humans are filled with egoism and until we understand oneness which is the total opposite of ego, then we will not need confirmation nor convincing because we will BE 'god', while others continue to separate God from themselves by illusion. I appreciate your post it reminds me of just that. God did give us ego, and there is some good in it; our individuality, identity, yet we abuse it when we force others to accept us. I am willing to agree to disagree, it's natural, I also believe it is by the words you speak that make all the difference. "Labels" are words that describe "things", feelings, emotions etc...which is another gift God gave to man- language. We are blessed to actually label things and BELIEVE it IS what we named it. wow. Isn't that how God himself is? the only difference is God does not need confirmation he just IS. He cannot argue about what is not. only human do that obviously. Blessings 1
The Creator ( ) does exist without any doubt.
I think that i we just start with this, more people woild agree.
That word "GOD" ; some people have a problem with.
Did God ever call himself that? Or did he say to not have any other gods before him?
SOooo does "God" not say that there are others?
SOooo go with others, or, go with another and see if that one keeps his promises!
That is all he was saying ???? I think, MaBe?
It is the same thing; there is only ONE Creator of this universe; there aren't many.
Honestly, that has nothing to do with the question. If you want to respond, that's great; but maybe a little thought would help??
"If God exists, do you think he wants to be a bone of contention?"
The Creator God wants that everyone should believe in him with truthful understanding. He wants to unite mankind on truth.
So, you think you know the mind of an entity. OK. You do believe that your god wants to be a bone of contention.
That makes ;
1 bone 1 not a bone 1 I'm not sure what jerami was saying
Howdy little Lady
Don't everyone believe that "SOMETHING" caused this all to happen?
Whatever that something is, some of us call "GOD"
And some of us doesn't think it exist; ... "IF" we gotta call it "GOD"
Arguements can ensue when we begin to describe who/what it is.
According to scripture ??? He didn't even want to describe himself!
He just said ........ "I Am"
"He" didn't even go that far, someone else said that he said it.
OK ... that being said, and IF we use that same analogy with all that Hat, kill, burn, etc ? .... he didn't say that either ... someone just said he said it ....
That being settled ! , ? Will you quit saying "God" said it?
Leave my God out of it, cause somebody just said he said them thAngs.
The source of your belief said those things, I have only put the bible itself in front of people. It doesn't need help with debunking, it debunks itself.
The source of your belief said those things,
== -- - = -
You really know the source of my belief? I don't think so!
I have only put the bible itself in front of people. It doesn't need help with debunking, it debunks itself.
-- -- - - --
Now the bible is a different thing all together.
Which bible are you talking about in particular, I politely ask. ??? Oh ... but that would be opening a can of worms cause …….. ? well you know!
I was going to give you a not a bone, but ernest has a point. We'll put you down as might be a bone.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The Creator God wants that human beings should unite and live peacefully.
Emile, good topic. Thanks.
Yes, God exists. His exact form is unknown to me, but the existence of existence tells of His existence. Simple, really.
Would God look favorably on arguing about his word?
It depends on the nature of the argument. If either side believes their stance to be Truth, then God is not happy. Mortal humans don't know Truth. Many fundamentalists seem to argue from the stance that they "know it all." Their "interpretation" is Truth. Is it really?
Discussing the issues humbly with an interest in learning should be very desirable, I would think.
Scientists use humility when they attempt to discover the answers of their research. Well, not all of them, but the best of them do.
Would God ever want to make everyone agree? I doubt it. Using force defeats the purpose of free will. We're not robots or puppets and for good reason.
We created evil, not God. Ego is our "devil." And what makes it really difficult to let go of ego is the sense that ego is the real us, when it really isn't.
And I agree with the thrust of your argument: that those who argue from the stance of ego and arrogance ("I know it all") are missing God's point of it all.
The immortal (true) self, within, cannot awaken so long as ego is alive. And so many of the believers are following ego by their adamant arguments. Sad.
What is sad is that someone could still be so bone ignorant as to belief myths are reality and reality is myth.
There is enough empirical evidence to sink the myth ship a hundred times, but we see people who should know better flogging their personal myth as "truth."
Thanks for the help ernest. You're showcasing the points of contention adeptly.
You would think that all the religions arising from the bible alone would be enough proof that it is myth.
When I read a book, I usually don't have to walk around thousands of words that condemn all of mankind, nor are they usually claiming proudly to have wiped us out.
It is all nonsense, just like it reads.
Walks like a duck.........
Agreed. It is obviously the result of the minds of Man. I couldn't imagine such an immature and hateful deity.
Nor can I.
To claim omnipotence and then demonstrate a jealous, childish hate filled entity that makes humans look like gods in comparison is a farce.
Gods in comparison? That's an up side. Humbling even.
Different vision does not equate to a need for disagreement. That's ego. I don't have to agree to respect. If there is a god, I would assume whatever he is encompasses more than any one person could wrap their minds around. Maybe he is just big enough to allow for all views to have a valid place in creation.
But, we'll put you down for a bone.
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