God, the progeny of human fear, is anti-science
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago
0Roger,
I would like to answer your question but yet to find the words to answer. I would like to think it is because I do believe in a higher power. Could our brains in this human flesh understand the concept of when you walk, breathe, move and respond in goodness it connects you to something that can't be explained? I am grateful to have good in me. It keeps the darkness away. Until recently I would sleep with a teddy bear, because I don't like darkness. Maybe it is from the trauma that I have witnessed/experienced. I just thank the one who is greater in me than the one that is in this world !
When one is mired in religious gobbledegook and has not taken the time to understand the world around them, they are not rational thinkers. The OP does not offer a rational question based on it's premise, it only offers faith based gobbledegook.
That would make the Bible utterly useless.
LOL! Of course, whenever your God waves his magic hand, science takes a back seat.
No, science would just laugh hysterically. --->
What answers would you have that the Bible did not? Are you an authority on the Bible?
LOL! The old 'Science can't prove my extraordinary claim' ploy. Yes, we can come up with all kinds of silly claims that science can't prove wrong.
And, you're right, science can't prove your magic is wrong.
Scientists have a sense of humor, too. They hear cranks and crackpots spewing all kinds of hilarious claims.
You see, here's how it works. The scientist is going to assume that whoever comes to them with a theory has actually taken the time to understand what it is their talking about, have done the research and figured out the math when presenting the theory as opposed to offering some half-baked idea based on magical sky fairies. It is the latter that they would laugh about and the former would take seriously.
And, believers make hypothesis about what they've been indoctrinated to see, but never actually see.
LOL! So, you set up a false premise using a man made item like a watch (read Dawkins book, The Blind Watchmaker) in order to rationalize life on earth as being created or passed on by an entity.
Yet, when we actually study life on earth (rather than studying a watch) we find that it did form from materials already present.
So, you tell me, which is the more rational thinker, the one who sets up a false premise with a watch?How dishonest of you to do so. I handle hypothetical situations just fine, thanks, and can recognize when someone is trying to baffle me with bs, like you often do.
Why didn't you use a complex life form rather than a watch when making comparisons to life on earth?
But, they count as the materials required to form life, which was your point, was it not?
No, it isn't, it is a typical red herring set up by believers.
We already know what you believe. No, it makes no sense at all that an intelligence created the universe. None. Nada. Zip.
Sorry, you've read that book?
Not at all.
- Because using the complexity of a man made object to the comparison of life is dishonest, especially when you derive conclusions from it.
How much hand holding do you need, anyways?
I am not arguing your point because your point is fallacious. You are dishonestly comparing a man made object to nature and gleaning false conclusions.
No, you dishonestly assert man made watch is the same as life.
Because, I don't dishonestly assert man made objects are the same as nature. There you go again, making silly conclusions based on your religion.
Here's a way to see how silly they appear. Substitute the phrase, "Invisible Purple Rhinoceros" in place of 'God' when you make your claims.
Who cares? What does that have to with nature? It's just another irrelevant example, another red herring.
That's nice, so what? Does anyone in the scientific community agree with you on that?
Why would I need to do that when no believer can show a shred of evidence that their gods exist?
Evolution and Abiogenesis are two of the very best explanations we have for the origins and current state of our universe. Other sciences have sprung from these explanations only to find more evidence that supports them. Both explanations have now made their way into every other hard and soft science with more evidence of support.
Absolutely none of it shows an iota of evidence for divine influence.
Sure, you could argue it was made such a way by God as to not show His influence, but that still doesn't support the claim of divine influence.
A fallacy of elementary status, B is not true just because A may be or is true.
Hilarious. You talk about man proving things 100% as if it were some standard that had to be met in order for us to accept them.
Oops.
They DON'T KNOW!!!!
Don't bother asking. I've asked, repeatedly, and the only honest answer they can give is, just that
"we don't know . . 'but it wasn't any God' ".
So they debunk it as "majik" (their spelling, not mine), yet, life somehow DID come from non-life. (Also magic, in my book. Without God, that is.)
They crack me up.
That is entirely untrue.
Yes, C'mon.
That is entirely untrue. If it were true, we would be doing it all the time.
It is sad that believers must spread these kind of lies in order to defend their faith.
Who says religion does no harm or damage?
It's astounding how humankind has managed to live this long.
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
Geez Melissa, I didn't know any of that. It explains heaps of things.
(ducks)One day I'll invent a sarcasm font... or at least a decent way to convey a cyber face-palm. Til then...
Melissa! where ever did you find this? It sure is something!
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
You're pretty smart for a girl, Melissa!
Once again Randy, we eats snakes in these parts...
I love when you Christian ladies talk dirty!
I woz gonna say that.
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AntonOfTheNorthposted 12 years ago0
Science was nary even a concept in any ones mind back when they believed the earth was flat. In fact, during that time, all kinds of Gods reigned over the earth and very little was known about anything, let alone the characteristics of the earth itself. It was believers who believed the earth was flat and it wasn't until Pythagoras in the 6BC developed a spherical earth model (based on astronomy), which Aristotle accepted (based on physics) and promoted 3oo years later that we all accept today.
Yes, people put their faith in a flat earth model until someone doing a little science comes along to correct the model, NOT using faith as their guidance.
Or, maybe they just know something more, but not all.
Yes, you are free to do so. We are also free to help you know so you don't have to rely on faith alone and mistakenly claim things about science.Wow, TroubledMan, your knowledge certainly is "troubled." You stated, "Science was nary even a concept in any ones mind back when they believed the earth was flat." Oops!
"Flat Earth" believers exist even today. Science, as far as history is concerned, started as far back as 3500 BC, when the Sumerians recorded numerical data about their observations of nature. The Greeks continued in this tradition, including the works of Pythagoras and others.
The observations of the early Greeks were so good that one of them discovered the precession of the Earth's axis. Another Greek calculated the diameter and circumference of the Earth from real-world observations.
There were some who believed in a "flat Earth" during the time of Columbus, too. This was long after science had its start.
So, your opening pronouncement was full of "stuff!"
Science studies the products of God's creation. And that's a beautiful profession. But scientists and skeptics making pronouncements against God and faith are talking out their back sides. And that truly is not a pretty picture.
Science and faith are not incompatible. Skepticism and faith are.
Scientific method warns against bias. But, oops! Skepticism contains a very potent bias -- that of doubt. Could science use a better paradigm? I think so.
That paradigm would include humility and restraint, but too many have too much ego invested in their "skepticism." Alas!Funny how each time you decide to engage me, you start off with a personal insult. Is that the loving Christian in you or someone else?
So what?
Read this article before you go making those claims:
"Thus, Sumerian science lacked the conceptual framework of formulated principIes (what in the West has been called «natural laws"), and simply ordered nominal expressions one after the other in a one-dimensional fashion, without any kind of elucidation."
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/introd … ience1.htm
No, they did not continue in that tradition. Did you not read where I talked about Pythagoras in my post?
So what? Do you have a point?
And yet, that is one of the most common misconceptions and myths which you appear to have swallowed. Columbus never sailed to prove the Earth wasn't flat, that is entirely false.
Really? I think we can see where the "stuff" is originating.
Gobbledegook, or in your own words, "Stuff"
I already know you know very little about the scientific method and science in general, no need to remind me.
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
I agree Winston, I am another average human being who can also change beliefs in the light of better information.
Not much point in holding on to wrong ideas simply because they are what we believed yesterday if today's info is proven to supersede it.
You seem like a smart guy, so perhaps you can answer a question for me. Why was it such a big deal for god to sacrifice his son when he could-and supposedly did-simply bring him right back to life? How is that a meaningful sacrifice?
When you consider that the fullness of God was in the persom and flesh of jesus christ and that as that flesh suffered, so did God. God who made everything put aside his awesome powers and his heavenly home and came to earth and walked - not teleported - everywhere. Heard his people say He was not who he was, deride him and seek to kill him, then in Gethsemane garden, was betrayed by a kiss - sign of homage - and then Peter cut off that guards ear, which jesus healed and rebuked him saying, "could not my father send me legions of angels to rescue me" and then as he was interrogated by the governors and sentenced without proper cause, then beaten, etc, hung on a cross and while that flesh was in great pain God kept that body alive for 6 hrs while all it wanted to do was stop functioning, all the while realizing the pain that those close to him were experiencing watching him die, for Mary to watch her baby boy die this way.
My words do not convey the extremity of this situation at all.
God could have not done this or avoided it completely. Nobody asked God to do this, God chose to do this to give up all that He had and walk as a human to experience life as we do and then to give it up.
Aside from that, the sacrifice was necessary, prophesied throughout the OT, 1,000 of years before it happened, this sacrifice changed so many things. That sacrifice gave us a different way of doing things other than to be killing cows at a nearby temple or any of the other worship events the OT people did. It also was a stepping stone to revealing that there is an afterlife, a resurrection, laugh if you will, but the resurrection is the backbone of the Early Church and its faithful to the death followers.
Hope this helps
nice post
Obviously its easy to use facts to make some other conjecture.
As far as your making an amputees arm grow, i bet you get there before winston does.
- brotheryochananposted 12 years ago0
There is life after death, a heaven no hell... and those are facts.
Since your not at the game you don't know the score.
Since your not up on the news you don't know wuzsup.
and your only peddling your opinion
I'm perfectly fine with the bad things that go on in this world. It happens. I don't blame God thats for sure. And i didn't invent God, 40 other people over thousands of years and then 8 more came along and documented the New covenant. I just read it, obeyed it, and it works for me.
Obviously you don't understand Pauls writings, they are spot on! I think because you don't understand Pauls writing and you call him a con man you are being intellectually dishonest. 2 finger points, 1 shame and a sound of the buzzer on that.
But what did you think of the rest of the post, especially the last point? I know you didn't like the seat belt, but then to me christianity is the seat belt of life, it keeps ya safe.LOL! Hysterical stuff.
Life after death is a fact?
That deserved the coveted double laughie.Too me yep
I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so there is something after this life or he would not have resurrected - duh
In fact i am staking my (old) life on it.
- RookerySpoonerposted 12 years ago0
Do you despise them as much as you do scientists who are not Christians?
Is that because the Christian scientists have confirmed there is life after death, and that works for you?
Ways of thinking always change. I am not disputing claiming fact or reliability but the way this information is put out comes across as this is fact and that is fact, we don't have it yet but we will someday. Oh yah, these sciences progress but that does not mean that distribution is certain. Take the cure for cancer for example, its out there but do we see it, no. Take the doctrines of the roman philosophists' and their double doctrine standards, then listen too the news and know that it is a press release and truths are stymied. Now to have faith in everything else but God, i think that is the real blatant bias.
As we read Gods book we see that God - as earnest has attested too - lays it all out there; the horrors of war, peoples sins, His judgments, lies, intents of the heart, etc. This is news with no rehearsed press release - its just the straight goods with no hidden agendas. History revealed. And its the same when people come to God and God begins to poke around in their lives, he reveals what they are, how they are without bias. Bit of off topic but i just wanted to say that.
The church has changed their doctrine often as more truth is revealed and this is why there are different denominations and today, even non-denominations. If heaven and God were proven not to exist, well, then i am sure shifts would occur accordingly. Until that happens and not through fallible science or slight of hand information or the unsuccessful attempts of others, God is number one in my house and i don't actually expect that to change but actually to increase because the deeper I,we go in God the bigger He gets and return is imminent and thats a mathematical calculation, btw, based on jubilee years.
It's terribly complicated.
Goddunnit.- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics either, but explaining terms helps us communicate ideas and gain understanding. I think this suggestion there is a difference between opinion and belief is confusing the issue. What you seem to be talking about is the nature of the belief rather than degree of belief. Believing the Venus De Milo is a beautiful statue is one thing, believing god is actual another. The nature of the latter can have a significant affect on how someone lives and behaves. If that's what you're saying, I agree.
Where I disagree is the notion that the way the belief is formed is the issue, i.e. the fact it is not based on objectively verifiable evidence. You argue that all of us should demand rigorous testable evidence for our beliefs, but this is not the answer because:
1) being able to form concrete beliefs on the basis of subjective judgement is useful in the environments we live, as it increases our chance of survival. That's why we developed the ability in the first place.
2) It's too simplistic to suggest that atrocities are motivated solely by belief, which your argument implies. The families of suicide bombers are reportedly paid $50,000 to $100,000. That's a strong motivator for someone whose family lives in poverty. Also, the desire for vengeance from those families affected by conflict shouldn't be underestimated. These things are social and political issues, not a matter of belief.
3) compared to the number of people on the planet who believe Allah exists, those who commit atrocities is insignificant, and certainly not enough to demonstrate a causal relationship.
4) your argument leads to the problem of infinite regress. If we all demand rigorous testable evidence for our beliefs, the supporting evidence needs to be supported by rigorous testable evidence, and that needs to be supported by rigorous testable evidence also, ad infinitum. This is called evidentialism and it doesn't work. At some point you have to make an assumption, i.e. form a belief which is not based on rigorous testable evidence, thus defeating the object.
5) murder in the name of religion will exist as long as the biological imperative to form groups and compete with other groups exists. God-belief is just one way of distinguishing between “us” and “them”, and serves as a justification. There are many others. The issue is biological, and not related to how we form belief.
6) as long as there is a need for god-belief, god-belief will exist. Eradicate economic inequality, poverty, social injustice, disease and create a clean, unlimited source of fuel accessible to all. Then the need for competing groups disappears. The need to hope in something other than ourselves disappears. The need to conceive of the perfect being disappears. The need for “us” and “them” disappears. And the need to imagine some place better beyond the clouds disappears. Focusing on getting individuals to give up their beliefs does nothing to take away the need for the belief in the first place.
The point is some human beings need god to be real. And it's not like Santa, or the tooth fairy. This concept is the ultimate articulation of human hope. The greatest thing humans can conceive. It is an all encompassing concept that can, by its nature, assimilate virtually any opposing argument. There is no competing with that and it's futile to try. So rather than focussing on eliminating belief in god, wouldn't it be better to focus on eliminating the need for belief in god? Only then can humans compete with god for the hearts and minds of fellow humans. And that's what it's about in my opinion, winning hearts and minds. So far the concept of god is ahead by a long chalk, and I see nothing in your argument that would change that.
Very nicely written and well stated argument in my opinion.
- Nonsense Debunkerposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
In some of those experiments, the group being prayed for actually did worse.
Wrong again. Is it possible you can flap your arms and fly? Notice that we can turn to science and find out why that is impossible.
- Oh no, religion does in fact exist, it is the gods and spirits and other silly imps and demons believers conjure from their imaginations that are mutually exclusive to reality.
Since you have such a difficult time addressing specific points, I'll make this one post. If you can, reply to each of the three points without resorting to
1 - Does something have to be visible in the visible light spectrum to exist?
2 - Do atoms exist?
3 - How can atoms exist if they can't be seen with visible light?Good and rational question.
He will just say ""; which means he is finished with reasons and arguments.It is a synonym, but it is also inherent in the definition... I posted the definition of the word for you!
You want to use the definition 'exist=physical presence, that which has shape and location.', but that's not the definition of the word. Where did you get it?
Here's another definition from the Cambridge Dictionary:
By definition, the concept of Santa Claus is real, but that doesn't mean that Santa Claus is real. The concept and the thing are two different things
How did he cease to be? Your argument assumes that Jesus is real in the sense of being the Son of God(by saying that he died for our sins). If that's true, then He had at the time a physical body and a spiritual body. After he died, he still had a physical body(which was dead) and a spiritual body(received unto the father). So how did he cease to exist?
Your definition is what you want exist to mean. Do you know why we have dictionaries? Like you said, for unabiguity. If you just make up definitions, we lose that, but it's your fault, not mine.
Call using the actual definition of a word wordplay if you want, but I'll keep using the real meanings of these words
Right... so physics are all bunk, right? Is science also bunk?
Let me tell you about science. You perform an experiment, and nature does something. For example, if you hold up a rock and let go, it will fall. The experiment is holding up the rock and letting go. The rock falling is the result of the experiment, or in other words, nature doing its thing. Gravity is our word for that, our attempt to explain it.
If you don't believe in science, do you believe in the results of the experiments? In other words, do you believe when the rock falls?
Cynicism comes with age... what is so great about cynicism?
And, if we are a bunch of ignorant evolved hominids, then why should I believe the argument of an ignorant evolved hominid?
Yes, believing in 'what ifs' is definitely a horrible way to try and escape ignorance
When did you decide to change from discussing and comparing arguments and ideas to condescending advice?
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- Chasukposted 12 years ago0
Ok, so then, do we have any difference in view on what is 'theoretically evaluable' and what isn't? I'm not sure anymore, too many people in this conversation
That's a good disclaimer for all of us to have, I think
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
Exactly. However, you will continue to make claims of spirits and you will believe they do in fact exist, regardless.
Hence, you have not formed an argument either way. You have led us down the garden path of irrelevancy and pointlessness in favor of your religious beliefs all the while fallaciously demanding we accept them as a possibility.
Okay, they're a possibility, one of such infinitesimally small magnitude, it warrants similar attention to that of the possibility of an invisible purple rhinoceros living in my garage.
So, let's discuss that instead. I noticed you still haven't asked me how I know it's purple.Much better than you, evidently.
Then, you have an unfounded, irrational and ridiculous belief in spirits.
Sorry, are you saying they haven't dismissed it already? LOL!
LOL! In other words, science needs to accept as a possibility anything you are any other religious believer can conjure from their myths and mysticisms.
Okee-dokee.
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
Yes, I have read the BoM. Speaking of literary style, why wouldn't two books translated from allegedly similar languages use the same literary style?
As for errors... what would you like to talk about?
There is a difference between scriptural theology and external beliefs. For instance, there is no scriptural basis in the BoM to say that the Lamanites and the Native Americans are one and the same.
In fact, there is reference to the Lamanites and other groups being intermarried from the beginning with existing peoples.
THere are things we can talk about
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
- AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago0
Related Discussions
- 145
What truly motivates non-believers?
This topic is old, I know, but I'd like to ask it anyway. Many Christians will ask an atheist, "Why are you here if you don't believe God (should it be a Christian thread)?" Some will answer, "Because I'm trying to help you see the errors of your ways. Is this...
- 129
What's wrong with using the bible against christians?
A reader of my local paper (The Spartanburg Herald-Journal www.goupstate.com) sent this comment to our opinion section "The Stroller": TAKE MY CHANCES': "A local reader" observes that as Christmas approaches there seems to be a proliferation of comments from people who tend to...
- 79
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” Dogs being non-Isrealites.“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’"Why do you call...
- 118
Is it possible for Pagans and Christians to be friends?
On Facebook I know of at least two profiles where the people running them have offended some Pagans by comments they have made from a Christian viewpoint and links they have posted. I have seen this sort of problem before. So my question is: can Christians and Pagans be friends or do the belief...
- 204
Atheists, do you despise Jesus or just religions (in general) that worship God?
Atheists, do you despise Jesus or just religions (in general) that worship God?Such God worshiping religions would include Judaism and Islam. Also, did something happen to you to make you angry about "God" or is this just a scientific decision you made in college?? Many atheists demand...
- 42
do muslims/hindus/jews fall in category of non believers & viceversa?
what does word believer mean to christians?..do muslims or buddist or any other faith fall in category of non believer and if you are muslim or any other faith , do christians and other faiths fall in category of non believers?