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Loosing my Religion

  1. Disappearinghead profile image88
    Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago

    Let's be honest now, how many believers out there have got to point at some stage in your life where you have thought of throwing in the towel with either God or your beliefs or both? Maybe because of unanswered prayer, lack of evidence of God's intervention/interest in your life, boredom, or just a sense that your Sunday School teaching doesn't stack up against life's realities.

    Well I'll put my hand up here for more than one occasion. If you are hanging in there as some sort of insurance policy though, you perhaps need to look at your doctrines.

    No quoting scripture now because they're used as stock glib answers and demonstrate a cop out.

    1. Repairguy47 profile image61
      Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Losing my Religion.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image99
        Sally's Troveposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I was tempted to word-play a lot on the loosing vs losing. Your concise comment summed up my thoughts nicely. smile

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I got to the point where I thought of muddying the towel but never throwing it in! lol

      "My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed:  I will sing and give praise."
      (Psalm 57: 7)


      And I thank God for it!

      "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling,  and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
      To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.  Amen."
      (Jude 24)


      No quoting Scripture, huh?   Well, just call me a rebel I guess! wink

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Just got here And this is the first really really Good post For the night.

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        A rebel for Christ lol

        I love it.

        Oil for some ,vinegar for another.

        Well,sister we just serve, I trust God to know who ordered what wink



        Throwing in the towel, well when I couldnt walk properly and kept falling on my pa tutti, I thought about screaming and rolling around on the floor a few times (ok I did more than think about it) lol

        Then one day , I didnt fall every other minute, I EVOLVED into a beautiful butterfly lol...

      3. brotheryochanan profile image60
        brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        nice goin rebel

    3. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It's amazing what happens when faith is placed squarely in front of reality for scrutiny. lol

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Funny how it waxes and wanes. Maybe there is more to reality than meets the eye?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Wishful thinking. smile

        2. Disappearinghead profile image88
          Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Faith most definitely waxes and wanes with life's circumstances. I just don't think it's possible to keep up a happy clappy smiley face when we find ourselves in situations that challenge us to the core. Perhaps those who say they can have not been brought low or who have had an easy life where their faith has been truely tested.

        3. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          everything waxes and wanes, hope, health, love, life, generosity, devotion blah blah etc etc... the moon lol
          Its actually not funny at all just a part of being human

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You really don't understand much. Do you? Or maybe you do and are pretending you don't. You did admit to being dishonest.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              welcome troll number 2

              poisoning the well are you? Well that's okay whatever you need to do to make yourself better,
              get well soon.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                That's one thing that fascinates me here. The definition of troll is apparently the opposing view. Fear is a powerful motivator for insults. I don't fear the opposing view. Some, I pity. Some I find offensive. But I don't fear.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  fear is a powerful motivator for insults, only If you say so, but i do not perceive it that way.
                  Insults fall where they may and even stem as a form of disguising what one wants to say, because of moderators, we need to curb our messages.
                  I am sure you want fear to be a motivator and that's just because it fits in with what you want to think, which is your MO for many issues, but real fear keeps a shut mouth, does it not?
                  You even switched the meaning of troll to suit your opinion
                  you said opposing view
                  the definition is: a person who posts to an internet discussion group or chat room with the sole purpose of disrupting it and to attempt to incite a negative or argumentative reaction in an online discussion.
                  Like many people do, they say what they want without getting actual fact first.
                  That's pitiful indeed. Before i say anything, i check it out thoroughly first. You may want to emulate this fine christian like quality.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Everyone's a troll who points out your dishonesty. lol

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  which you have not pointed out and this makes you dishonest.
                  and since i perceive that most of your posts are only to incite i called you a troll. I think that was pretty honest of me

    4. TJenkins602 profile image75
      TJenkins602posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, I'm a human so I definitely have had my days. There comes a point when one is going to have to radically redefine God for himself or drop him all together.

    5. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Disappearinghead!

      Do I detect another “cop out”? lol Is it not possible for believers to explain the importance, purpose, and relevance of their beliefs in today’s world without using scripture?

      Just a curious thought. Like an echo from a empty jar.

    6. 0
      Hubertsvoiceposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Losing faith in religion is not a bad thing, religion is a business like many others, only tax free. When you lose faith in God or doubt that he exists, take a breath. You have just witnessed another one of God's miracles.
      God exists and will not turn his back.
      Ask God what his plan for you is (another man or woman cannot cannot answer that for you). Follow his guidance to the letter, your faith will strengthen. God is our Father in Heaven, and he always answers prayers. If our prayers go against His plan for us, that answer will be no.

      1. workabroad profile image60
        workabroadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. He sometimes can be silent, but it does not necessarily means that He left us. "He will never leave us nor forsake us," a promise we can continually yield on.

    7. Hugh Williamson profile image86
      Hugh Williamsonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you have to work at believing in something then you should be doubtful about that belief.

      It's a personal thing. You have a right to be religious, atheist, spiritual, non-spiritual or whatever you feel is correct for you.

      Make your own decisions, explore different viewpoints and, above all just enjoy the ride. No one will be punished for that.

      Best of luck on your journey.

    8. Titen-Sxull profile image95
      Titen-Sxullposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It's been years since I was at that point. I never threw the "towel" so to speak, at least not all at once. Rather I came to the conclusion that I could not believe in God as he was described in the Bible since he was inconsistent with morality, basic empathy, logic, etc. The logical and moral contradictions of scripture overwhelmed any attempt at "hanging in there" I ever made.

      As such for a while I pursued the "one true God", looking into other religions and philosophies before becoming a sort of pantheist who believed God was just a benevolent Universal force. I eventually found this to be just as illogical as when I was a Christian. It also did very little other than to offer some emotional comfort.

      I've been an atheist since around December 2009, or at least it was soon after that that I realized I fit the description of one. The experience of losing my faith was gradual but it was also incredibly liberating and enlightening. Along the way I learned how to reason instead of simply feeling my way around in the dark allowing emotion to drive everything I believed.

      So for anyone out there afraid to let go of faith, don't be. Part of the human journey is discovering new ideas and ways of thinking and questioning what you are told is true. Without doubt and without skepticism it is impossible to determine if what you believe is likely to be true.

    9. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
      Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you haven't, perhaps the forums isn't a place you should be. lol...

    10. shop online fast profile image61
      shop online fastposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      wow!

      there are times when i pray and cry for things, over and over, for months, and it seems like nothing happens

      i usually pray for better jobs, raise of pay etc. pretty much for monies.

      but one night i happen to flip the tv channel and dr mike murdock was on ministering about money

      he said these things:
      1) money is not a miracle, but money is the reward for solving a problem

      2) if you do not solve a problem, then you can't get money (other than winning the lotto)

      and

      3) God does not respond to our needs.  it doesn't matter how much you need something.  God only responds to our faith, whether you go to church or not

      the big question is, how does one increase his faith in God?

  2. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    I can't be honest with a one liner.
     
       Seems as though religion is where many people find God.
       And many people never find God in religion, though they try.

       I feel like I am developing a stronger faith in God as my faith in religion deminishes.

       And anyone that has been reading my posts for the past two years should understand why. Too much Tradition, cerimony and misinterpretations.

      Scripture has always been interpreted that way, SOoo  that is the way that it must be.  Not.

     
       Anyway ;  Disappearinghead,  Good question and I am intrested in its outcome.

  3. 0
    Virgil Newsomeposted 5 years ago

    I will be honest and say that I have thought about letting it all go before and on more than one occasion.  It had nothing to do with unanswered or answered prayers.  It was simply life and the frustration it sometimes brings.  Discouragement at times when things aren't going well.  I end up fighting through it and a fire starts up in my bones it seems.  I have to hold onto the One who bore me.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good answer that I can relate to. For me it is as the disciples asked the Messiah "where else would I go?"

  4. stemcellenhancer profile image61
    stemcellenhancerposted 5 years ago

    I am a Christian and love God.

    But it's not due to following dogma or theology.

    It's because God revealed Himself to me when I asked him to show me himself.

    It might seem untrue or unbelievable for some but God is bigger than some book or process or teaching.

    I would have thrown it all away years ago if God didn't show up when He did. in any case He is always looking for lost sheep - even if you walk away.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Okay, so tell us what he looked like? What did you have to say to get Him to reveal Himself considering so many others are trying to do the same thing with no results?

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        "In spirit and in truth" troubled NOT in Hollywood or Goggle lol

      2. stemcellenhancer profile image61
        stemcellenhancerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hi A Troubled Man

        Thanks for asking. I've been reading some of your posts to try and understand more of where you might be coming from. I see that you're an avid commentor and one who loves debate.

        For me, I'm not really into online debating, but I will limit myself to quiet comments. Please appreciate that what I share is from a personal perspective, and I don't claim to be able to answer everyone's questions.

        Now, to your questions.

        1. What did he look like ?

        -> God didn't "show" himself to me in terms of physical appearance. He "revealed Himself" to me. Psychologists call it a "light bulb" moment when things are completely understood the way they are meant to be understood. When God reveals himself, it's a light bulb moment that isn't something that you can read about. In the Bible this is called "revelation".

        In the Biblical book of Hebrews, it says that "whoever wants to know God must believe that He exists, and that He rewards those who seek Him" (my paraphrase here...) So in short if we are cynical about Him then He won't reveal Himself. But if we believe that He exists then get ready to interact with Him.

        On a personal note, the "lightbulb moments" where God reveals Himself to me are happening all the time. Some days it will be 2 or 3 times a day. At other times it could be a week before He shows up.


        2. What did you have to say to get Him to reveal Himself considering so many others are trying to do the same thing with no results?

        -> I'm wondering if you're referring to "chanting" here, or invoking some kind of spell or incantion that produces a genie out of a bottle style of results ?

        The thing I said was, "God, I believe you are real. I believe that you want to show yourself to me. Please reveal yourself to me."

        From then on it took God a while to act; or pehaps it took me a while to receive it -  I'm not sure smile

        In any case, once I took the time to earnestly seek Him, He acted.


        As you can see, I've left this as a two way street in terms of resposibilities. It's our responsibility to believe that God exists and to ask Him to reveal Himself. It's His responsibility to show up and convince us.

        And when He does, it's a lightbulb moment.

        Are you in a position to try it ?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I certainly wasn't very hopeful on getting a straight answer and find yours to be lacking and very much the same as any other, you simply want to believe in God. There was no revealing at all, it's all in your head.



          Yeah, sure. roll



          Actually, it's our responsibility to be honest, first with ourselves before we can be honest with others. You have yet to take that first step.



          To be dishonest with myself? No thanks. smile

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Those are excellent answers didn't you realize them when they bit you. Part of the problem is that you don't take time to read the post slowly and take into consideration what the words say and what the words mean. Another part of the problem is that the way you understand things is like this:
            John 6:51   I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
              John 6:52   The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
              John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
              John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
              John 6:60   Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

            An example of literal and carnal thinking missing the point. You seek for an answer that appeals to your carnal thinking, and because spiritual interpretation is not one of your capabilities, you flounder about the proper context and your understanding is insufficient.
            Not your fault
            keep trying
            but slow down on the criticism because you are not above being wrong or dishonest by ignorance
            have a nice day

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Ah, so you claim to be superior to me because you possess the characteristics of "spiritual interpretation"

              Dishonesty indeed.

              lol

    2. TJenkins602 profile image75
      TJenkins602posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That is good to hear. Apparently, God has revealed to you the same thing God has revealed to me.

      Troubled Man,

      All I could say is do not look for a bearded man sitting on a cloud.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Gee, that helps. roll

        1. TJenkins602 profile image75
          TJenkins602posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Glad I could be of help.

          (I'm actually surrounded by some nosy religious people, so I can't say much... Oh, dammit! I got caught. Out to be stoned and sent to a fiery hell with me.)

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            All the quiet Christians are in here lol

  5. 0
    RookerySpoonerposted 5 years ago

    I long ago stopped believing in God, and I have told Him so.  However, this does not stop me from dearly wishing I could have some religious faith again, because of the comfort it used to give me.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting conundrum that one.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image99
        Sally's Troveposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Amen.

    2. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I honestly hope this helps return your comfort.

      Proof God exists>>>> http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/67947#top

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        roll

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Seek and you shall find Rookery smile

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Rookery?

          ...Bird nests?

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            lol

            RookerySpooner (another poster)

            Sorry maybe posted in wrong place.

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Why do you keep promoting logical fallacies? Do you even know what it is?

        Here's a list, see how many of them you use...

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If it is a simple logical fallacy, (like a belief that the inability to scientifcally prove something exists is proof that it doesn't) then you should have no problem pointing out/explaining that fallacy. Stating it is a fallacy does not prove it is a fallacy. So far you have not and neither has anyone else been able to do so. Avoiding the truth does not dis-prove the truth.

          Proof of the fallacy I listed: DNA has existed since a time long before humanity existed. Recently humanity has discovered and proven the existence of DNA. That proof did not bring DNA into existence, DNA existed before it was proven to exist. Therefore things that cannot be scientifically proven to exist, do indeed exist.

          1. brotheryochanan profile image60
            brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Nice point

            trolls don't listen very well though

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thank You smile

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Ahh, when pointing out the dishonesty of Christians, one becomes a troll. I see now. lol

              1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                thanks for proving my point

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  You do realize you just called yourself dishonest? I can't imagine a scenario where I would have seen that one coming.

                  1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                    brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I guess you really want to explain that, so go ahead

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  And, you, mine. smile

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You know, A Troubled Man is right. Your proof that God exists isn't proof.

            The Proof: If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life. The highest form of life (whatever that is) is the Supreme Being... humanity has come to call that form of life, God.

            I think the first thing I would ask is, why do you assume one is lesser? The second; simply because we might categorize one as higher, and one as lesser, does that make it so? And third; even if I agreed that one was higher, how does that prove the existence of a God? I don't follow your logic.

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Because they are not IDENTICAL, if they are not equal/the same /equilivent then one has to be either lesser or greater, otherwise they would be Identical/the same/equal.



              Are you asking what determines which is greater and which is lesser? If so that doesn't matter in the proof, the fact that they are not Identical is all that is required.





              The definition of the term God is best, greatest, supreme, as stated in the proof.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well, biscuits and rolls aren't the same. They are equal in some respects, not so in others. Does that make one lesser and one greater?

                Is a horse greater than a cow? Is Pepsi greater than Coke?

                This whole part of your argument doesn't make sense. Just because things are not identical it does not logically follow that one is greater than the other.

                And, as I said; even if I agreed that it did make one above the other that doesn't prove the existence of a God. If you prove that God exists, then (if I bought into the first part of your argument) I would probably buy into your second. But, you would first have to prove God exists, which your statement fails to do. Unless I'm seriously missing something.

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Would you say that a house cat is a lesser being when compared to a lion?

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Why would I think that?

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes and no, and even maybe.

                    Could you be more vague? lol

                2. TJenkins602 profile image75
                  TJenkins602posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  " Is Pepsi greater than Coke?"


                  YES!!!!

                  Thank God for Pepsi...

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Someone  who has  climbed the mountain and seen the truth. I am humbled to read those simple words of wisdom. I concur. smile

              2. Quilligrapher profile image90
                Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Hi Mikel,

                It has been a while since we’ve shared together.

                I gather from you hubs and posts that this is your original logic since you don’t credit any other source.  Still, your logic is flawed and it may be leading you to a flawed conclusion (and maybe not). Let’s begin with your original premise: Life form “A” is NOT IDENTICAL to life form “B”. Now, NOT IDENTICAL in this statement simply means they are different or not the same. Your conclusion that “A” has to be lesser or greater than “B” is false. Their not being identical doesn’t mean “A” is lesser or greater than “B”. Of all the characteristics shared by “A” and “B”, it only takes one that is not common to both to declare they are not IDENTICAL.  For example, "A" and "B" are different colors therefore not IDENTICAL. But the different colors do not make one larger then the other, or of lesser importance than the other.  They are deemed to be just different.

                In additon, you also make another highly personal assumption that appears to be false.
                You seem to assume that other people perceive God as a life form and you speak on behalf of all humanity by calling “that form of life, God.” That fact that some members of humanity do not perceive God as a life form proves your assumption is not universally true and just a product of your own perception. 

                In the end, your self-proclaimed proof is certainly not a logical proof that led you to your beliefs. Rather, it is a flawed rationale constructed to support your pre-existing beliefs. If your proof serves to describe your world and it helps you to live a better life than, by all means, follow your bliss. But you must also recognize it as a very personal viewpoint and not one likely to apply to others.

                Mikel, it is always a pleasure to swap ideas with you. Keep on truckin’

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  As the conversation goes on subtle word changes for clarity occur, coming into the conversation in the middle, using the changed words as a starting point changes the meaning you take away from the conversation. So here is the begining point and I guess we can start again from there.

                  I can prove God exists.

                  To start off we need to understand the terms, the meanings of the words.

                  The definitions:

                  Supreme- Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant. 2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.

                  God- The best, the greatest form of life in existence, The Supreme Being.

                  Life Form- an entity or being that is living or alive.

                  Existence- is the world we are aware of through our senses, and that persists independently without them.

                  The Proof:

                  If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life.

                  The highest form of life (whatever that is) is the Supreme Being... humanity has come to call that form of life, God.

                  1. Quilligrapher profile image90
                    Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Hi again, Mikel,
                    Thank you for your prompt reply and for taking me back to the beginning.  Now, I shall start from the beginning also.

                    I gather from you hubs and posts that this is your original logic since you don’t credit any other source.  Still, your logic is flawed and it may be leading you to a flawed conclusion (and maybe not). Let’s begin with your original premise: Life form “A” is NOT IDENTICAL to life form “B”. Now, NOT IDENTICAL in this statement simply means they are different or not the same. Your conclusion that “A” has to be lesser or greater than “B” is false. Their not being identical doesn’t mean “A” is lesser or greater than “B”. Of all the characteristics shared by “A” and “B”, it only takes one that is not common to both to declare they are not IDENTICAL.  For example, "A" and "B" are different colors therefore not IDENTICAL. But the different colors do not make one larger then the other, or of lesser importance than the other.  They are deemed to be just different.

                    In additon, you also make another highly personal assumption that appears to be false.
                    You seem to assume that other people perceive God as a life form and you speak on behalf of all humanity by calling “that form of life, God.” The fact that some members of humanity do not perceive God as a life form proves your assumption is not universally true and just a product of your own perception. 

                    In the end, your self-proclaimed proof is certainly not a logical proof that led you to your beliefs. Rather, it is a flawed rationale constructed to support your pre-existing beliefs. If your proof serves to describe your world and it helps you to live a better life than, by all means, follow your bliss. But you must also recognize it as a very personal viewpoint and not one likely to apply to others.

                    Mikel, it is always a pleasure to swap ideas with you. Keep on truckin’

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Where did you get that definition? Did you make it up yourself?



                    Fallacy. You have not defined what is "lesser" or what is "highest" and have fallaciously stated if one is lesser, then the other must be higher. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.



                    Fallacy. Without definitions for lesser and highest, your conclusion is meaningless.

                    Failed.

                2. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  But isn't it true that there are 3 "primary" colors which are the basis for the creation of all the other colors? This proves that even in the world of colors there is a pecking order and some colors are greater and some lesser.

                  (It's good to see you too Q)  big_smile

                  1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                    Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    The websters definition which is the source for the definitions is a commonly accepted definition by Humanity. Saying Humanity has come to use the term God to mean a supreme being is an accurate statement and has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, it is simply humanity's language therefore humanity has come to call the concept that.(in which ever language you care to use/translate the term to)

                    ***and it is my original logic.

                  2. Quilligrapher profile image90
                    Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Mikel,

                    Please do not introduce primary colors to explain your claim “NOT IDENTICAL” means one must be better or worse. The use of color in my example demonstrates how “NOT IDENTICAL” does not determine one is bigger or better, only different. Defend your proof.  “NOT IDENTICAL” means not the same or not alike. The claim “If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser” is a false conclusion.
                    Alas, we do agree on this!  Now look at what you said…
                    I challenge you to produce a widely accepted dictionary that defines God as “a form of life.” The best you will find is “supreme or supernatural being.” You use a personal, self-created definition of God as a life form and then erroneously compare life forms to conclude, “if there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser.” 

                    I hope you realize that I do not question the conclusion of your proof only the logic you used to arrive at it. Your conclusion may still be correct but it is not a “proof”. If I built a proof and others found the logical framework lacking, I know what I would do.  I would take my proof to the philosophy department at the nearest college or university and I would ask a professor for an opinion, not about the conclusion, but about the logic contained within my proof.

                    I hope you have a great evening.

          3. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            So, you admit to not knowing what logical fallacies are if you can't even go through the list and see them yourself in your Hub? lol



            Again ---> lol

            After going back through some of your posts, it appears you have no interest in listening to others when it comes to try to explain those fallacies.

            1. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              many of those fallacies do not relate nor apply when God is in the picture.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, I know you choose to ignore reality when it suits your purposes, no need to remind me of that, thanks.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image60
                  brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  no, what i said is correct.
                  you choose not to accept it.
                  and that is your reality and that's the only thing i am reminded of
                  thanks

  6. 69
    paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

    Loosing my Religion


    What is your religion? please

  7. aware profile image70
    awareposted 5 years ago

    resolve .  endeavor to persevere .   if religion  is all it takes to  take the hope in a god from you .  you've been beaten by weakling .

  8. getitrite profile image79
    getitriteposted 5 years ago

    I lost my belief when I realized that I don't want any of the things that blind belief offers.  I don't want to go to heaven at all...I have no desire to go to such a place, or to slavishly worship an old unjust curmudgeon, begging him for eternal life.  HOW LAME!

    If eternal life comes with such miserably oppressive strings attached, then I prefer to just be dead.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree...what's wrong with giving the worms a feed and helping them rebuild the soil for the next generation....the full cycle. smile

      Much better to be dead than to spend an eternity listening to the religiously infirm retelling how god found their car keys!

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        When it really comes down to it, the concept of heaven is miserable, but some people have such a neurotic fear of death, that they will take eternal life under ANY circumstances...knowing full well that they have accepted a situation that is void of happiness.

        This tyrant god can keep his eternal life.

        1. TJenkins602 profile image75
          TJenkins602posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          According to those people, the others will get eternal life as well, it will just be in a torture chamber MWAHAHAAAAA!!!

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            lol

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image75
          Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Im sure He intends too.

        3. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Deleted

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
            Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            God is the only thing that is rock solid!

            The world system has gone crazy,greed and power in ones self is their god.

    2. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I bet it is against the law (in Heaven) to murder someone while you are there.

         You wouldn't want to be someplace where you couldn't kill somebody, and you would get kicked out?


          I guess Ya do have that choice!....  Well in that case? We all are going to miss Ya.

  9. Sally's Trove profile image99
    Sally's Troveposted 5 years ago

    I lost my religion when I was 13 and boys became important. In my church, thinking about boys and the carnal aspect of those thoughts was a sin. Before that, I wanted to be a nun. Rather than confess my "sin" I turned away from the church and also from God. I knew what I was going through was natural...I wish I knew a priest, or a nun, who understood at the time. So the institution of the church drove me away from faith.

    Now, I feel differently. I don't believe in the God and in the Christ that defined my childhood, but I do believe in a greater power. Maybe God and Christ are parts of that greater power. I do have faith in something much greater than I am, and I put myself in its hands.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good for you.

      I appreciated the honesty of your post.


      I dont understand the answers to many questions,but I know my life is better since I met Him.

      Life is a journey and we are all the same ,yet very different because of circumstances and choices.

  10. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    He ask ? the importance, purpose, and relevance
    ==============================



    It IS  "relevance"  that  "importance"  creates  "purpose".   (???)

  11. Captain Redbeard profile image61
    Captain Redbeardposted 5 years ago

    I think it's odd that you want to talk about faith but not use scripture. Very well, I 'll play ball. I try to not use scripture anyway when talking with people as it seems to turn me into some sort of bigget or hater in their eyes when I do.

    I think it's funny that people look down on themselves or non believers or even believers look down on other believers when they have doubt yet if we looked at practicly every single story in the bible almost everyone that I ever read on had doubt in their God or in themselves to which God gave them a task. Moses said that he couldn't do it, Jonah had fear, so on and so forth up to Christ who had no desire to suffer the cross but only to serve his father in heavens will.

    When I read Psalms I find the most comforting thing is that the Psalmist most of the time seemed to have doubt and worry and fear and wanted to give up and turn their bones over to the birds and beasts but by the end of their complianing or crying or whatever they always rested on one thought. How good God has been to them and if he really is the same today as he was yestereday and is promised to be tomorrow then what doubt could challange that?

    My marriage has almost fallen to pieces twice, my daughter almost died at birth, my parents divorced when I was child and I was homeless by the time I was 12. The woes in my life are seemingly endless however they do have an end. The joys that I can credit to my God however, I could never think of them all. I know that not everything in life will go my way, and I know that there will be some people who will read this with mockery and laughter and say things un called for but that's ok. I'm cool with it. I am secure in who I am and where my life is heading. I just wanted to take the time here to tell you that everyone has thought that. If someone tells you they havent then they havent believed long enough or they are lying to you. It's just a matter of resting on the foundation laid of rock instead of sand my friend.

    1. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Not fair! You said you wouldn’t use scripture in anyway. lol

      1. Captain Redbeard profile image61
        Captain Redbeardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        But I never quoted a book or chapter nary a verse number was used. big_smile

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          scripturephobics

  12. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    Is this some of the religion you are losing?

    God Will Kill Children

        The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)


    Kill Men, Women, and Children

        "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


    God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

        And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.  Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.  (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)


    Kill Old Men and Young Women

        "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD.  "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.  With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.  With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.  With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.  "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD.  "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth!  I am your enemy," says the LORD.  "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights.  When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.  You will be desolate forever.  Even your stones will never again be used for building.  You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.  (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

         (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter.  So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)


    God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

        If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.  I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.  (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)


    More Rape and Baby Killing

        Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



    I did use scripture though

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hey earnestshub;  hope all is well on the down under side.
      By any chance, do you know if any of those threats come to pass?

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Soitainly Jerami! It's in the book. lol God's word ya know! lol

        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          then you DO believe what is written.

    2. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance. Ephesians 5: 2

      Love one another with brotherly affection [as members of one family], giving precedence and showing honor to one another.
      Romans 12: 10

      Know, recognize, and understand therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and steadfast love and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations. Deuteronomy 7: 9

      How precious is Your steadfast love, O God! The children of men take refuge and put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.
      Psalm 36: 7

      He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. 1 John 4: 8

      But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. Romans 5: 8

      I love those who love me, and those who seek me early and diligently shall find me. Proverbs 8: 17

      But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5: 44

      No one has greater love than to give up his own life for his friends. John 15: 13

      and that one that ticks you off the most
      john 3:16

    3. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      And you think the chastisement of God is not necessary?
      If we look at moses life him being in the egyptian military and raised in oppulence and we see that God took him from all that and put him through rigorous training, what do we see?
      We see a man who did exactly what God wanted him to do. He carried out Gods will for Gods people in Godly fashion. What we do not see is a self serving evangelist promoting his own ideas and leading the people astray.
      If God gave any of us and i use this phrase generally so as not to point fingers, but if God gave the ministry of healing to people prone to ego would we be any better than benny hinn or prophecy, would be better than Campers?
      We need to look at the bigger picture and realize that all these things work to produce a people of God that are not in any way like natural man. In order to do the work of God people have to die to self.
      And we certainly, as your post makes us well aware, know what happens to people who avoid the chastening of God.

      1. Captain Redbeard profile image61
        Captain Redbeardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Good word

        1. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Covered the bases
          thanks

  13. aware profile image70
    awareposted 5 years ago

    Id rather be stricken deaf . Before letting a single uplifting  gospel music note touch my ear ! 
    Really!?

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image75
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Aww...well from where Im sitting ,you kinda look 'earless' anyway ,so you should be quite safe wink

  14. 0
    RookerySpoonerposted 5 years ago

    I think it is surprisingly easy to lose a religious faith.  It is for this reason, that people refuse to look at or listen to evidence to the contrary, because they are worried about being convinced by it.  However, once Pandora's box has been opened and faith has been lost, it is very difficult to reclaim it.

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      But not impossible.
      A major problem is self. We are wired to work in a world that demands we do our very best and we are taught that we only get what we deserve and work for. The world loves a winner. We have this checklist of successes and failures and we tend to condemn ourselves for failure - but none of this is Gods way.
      God knows we are frail and that we will make mistakes, even that we will try and try and not achieve the goal or that we will achieve a goal only to lose it in a small test and condemn ourselves for failure, but this is not the activity of christianity.
      God died for us, he gave us that and a new covenant not guided by rules and regulations or steered by our works and our efforts, but by simple faith on Him to change us in His time - not our time - and he accepts our failures knowing that when we earnestly desire change to come, presto! it has arrived.
      there is not one scripture that says, This type of person cannot be saved except one:
      Hebrews 6:4   For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
        Hebrews 6:5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
        Hebrews 6:6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
           "Seeing as they... shame." speaks of a present to future tense of action. These people who are diligent in reviling God and shame Him daily, while they are doing this thing they cannot be saved, until somewhere in their hearts a soft spot develops and there is then a window of opportunity for them to truthfully hear the word of God and have it sink and produce change. But until they stop warring against God they cannot (in that state) be saved.
      But ALL others can be saved.

  15. Greek One profile image81
    Greek Oneposted 5 years ago

    often times, when I visit the Hubpage forums, I tend to think there is no God

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Well, you almost had a goddess. But Mikel just had to be difficult.

      1. Greek One profile image81
        Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        what's a Mikel?

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The guy with the God proof. We had almost come to an agreement, but at the last minute he said I couldn't be a goddess. Go figure.

          1. Greek One profile image81
            Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            that really depends what you look like, doesnt it?

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Not really. I could be Venus or Persephone.

              1. Greek One profile image81
                Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I was once compared to the Greek God of porn... Testiclees

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol

  16. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 5 years ago

    God Will Kill Children

        The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

    Nice avoidance you mean.
    Nasty psychotic little god!

    1. brotheryochanan profile image60
      brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Isaiah 52:6   Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
        Isaiah 52:7   How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publishes peace; that brings good tidings of good, that publishes salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigns!
        Isaiah 52:8   Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
        Isaiah 52:9   Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
        Isaiah 52:10   The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

      how poetically lovely

  17. LucidDreams profile image83
    LucidDreamsposted 5 years ago

    God doesnt answer prayers...things happen and we give the so-called God credit. I hate to sound so anti-religous but I am. I grew up a good christian boy and served God.

    I like to keep learning and growing... I am not a follower..If there truly was a God, according to the text people love to follow, we will know his word.

    He has never spoken to me personally....I could say that certain things which happened had his hand in it and I believe but....yeah, I dont think so!

    Too many recent discoveries have happened that just dont jive with the bible and most religions which on average were created in the 100 bc to 200 ad era.

    Civilizations that have been proven to be very advanced have existed for over 12,000 years. They did not have a bible, they did not have commandments, they did worship gods....But the God we worship now was not even in play yet.

    Guess the earlier civilizations did not need rules to follow. Thats right, God didnt care about earlier people or dinosaurs and so on.

    Then again...the God most people follow today did not exist yet because we made him up.

    Religions will continue to adapt to each new discovery by scientists. It is in their best interests to do this. Take a good look at Catholics and learn what this particular religion has had to do just to survive and it will really scare you. Seriously, dive into the history of this religion and learn how it is the biggest sore you will ever see on society, Other religions have followed and do the same.

    More wars are fought over religion then any other reason....How many religions are there exactly? Way too many to name. Somehow eah one believes they are right. The truth is, these are man made and distributed for the profit of the higher ups.

    If God exists the way most humans believe....what took so long for him to spread his word and let people know he existed? I cannot stand to hear...God works in mysterious ways one more time!

    Christianity has only been in play for a little over 2000 years. Guess what happened the 10,000 years before that just did not matter to God!

    1. Captain Redbeard profile image61
      Captain Redbeardposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You know that Christianity branched off from the Jewish faith right? And the Jews were worshipping the same God long before they referred to them selves as Jews or anything other than people. Their religion is washed in tradition and ritual. Islam also believes in God or Allah and they branched off from Jewish faith aswell. There is actually a pretty clear line of where the God mentioned in the New Testament written by the Christians were before Christ showed up.

    2. LucidDreams profile image83
      LucidDreamsposted 5 years ago

      It seems as if as a Christian, you can wait until the very last minute and ask for forgivenes. I have to admit, it feels a little strange to voice my true opinions.

      A feeling of betrayal towards the true god right? You have to get over it just as I am. The only false god we are worshipping is the phony's who wrote this silly junk to begin with. Probably just another way to control peoples minds and finances before we were educated enough to know the difference and it stuck.

      Why didnt our god exist for the people who lived many centuries before us? Let me tell you why...because we made him up to help control our people and finances thru government and religion.

      You wouldnt be worshipping god if someone else handnt told you about it. You feel it in your soul now that you have been made to believe so.

      Adam and Eve were here on earth were they not? So whats the story for the rest of the universe? Dont have one.....religions will find a way to adapt when we keep learning and exploring new places and worlds.

      The chances of life on other planets troughout the universe is almost assured. Cant wait to hear what type of bible they have and what it says?

      Beyond that..... I would say the fact that religions we know have only surfaced within the past 2200 years goes to show that the 10,000 years previous did not matter right?

    3. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago

      Maybe an Algebra lesson could help.

      In Algebra we don't know what number is represented by the variables we use. We use letters to represent the variables.

      If X does not equal Y then X is either greater than Y or it is less than Y. There aren't any other alternatives.

      So not knowing what specific number is represented by X and Y does not dis-prove the very basic FACT that the X,Y relationship is one of Equality or one of NON-equality. There is no other option.

      If X=2 and X does not equal Y then Y is any number in existence except 2. Because if Y were 2 X would equal Y, they would be the same.

      Again:
      THERE ARE ONLY TWO CHOICES
      1) Equality
      2) Non-equality


      Being both equal and NON-equal is a contradiction in terms. That FACT is what your failing to understand.


      If there are more than one numbers one will be less and one will be higher. One will be lowest (-infinity) and one will be highest (+infinity).

      in common english: If there are more than one forms of life (represented by X and Y) and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life.

      The proof stands, is accurate and proven.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's a lesson in algebra? Let me give you a quick lesson in life. You cannot  assign a numeric value to different forms of life.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly my point and why I refuse to get sucked into your requirement of providing a pecking order for everything in existence.

          but our inability to complete that task does not prove that all life forms are equal, which they obviously are not or they would be the same life form.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Let me ask you this. What weighs more; a pound of bacon, or 16 oz. of flour?

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              to tag on to this.

              I have a better question...smile... Which weights more a Pound of Gold or a Pound of Lead?

            2. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How many ounces are in a pound again?

              If they are they same then they are the same, if they are not the same then they are not the same.

              In this attempt you're trying to confuse the issue of equal weight of different objects.

              That a ton of butter weighs a ton and a ton of gun powder weighs a ton does not make the butter, gun powder. Light a match and I'll prove it to you.

              You loving "all God's creatures big and small" equally does NOT make them equal life forms.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And, claiming "all God's creatures big and small" are not equal without offering any explanations as to how and why they are not equal makes your proof completely pointless.

                See how that works? smile

              2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Butter and Gun Powder both burn in open air. Compress either one and add heat and you will get an explosion. Butter (oil) is flamable just as is gun powder. Stability is a different matter though.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            But, you did provide a pecking order for your proof; lesser, lower, higher highest... but, you didn't explain or define it, hence it's useless.



            How are they not equal, explain yourself?

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol



        If X is one thing and Y is something else, yet to be defined, your Algebra lessons and conclusions are fallacious. Not only that, but your explanation about God has nothing to do with Algebra, numbers, X or Y.



        So, what does X, Y and the number 2 represent in your explanation?



        lol You still have not shown or defined what is equal and what is not in your explanations, making them totally useless.



        No, you are failing to explain. lol

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        lol So, what is defined as lesser, lowest, higher, highest? Are you talking about their levels of cholesterol, their use of underarm deodorants or maybe you're talking about intelligence?

        We will never know, hence your 'proof' is irrelevant and completely laughable. lol

      4. DoubleScorpion profile image86
        DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That works for math.

        But who gets to place the value on life? Who gets to determine what life form is greater,lessor or equal? And what are we to use to measure this?

        Each and every life form requires another life form to live (food). So which is greater? Example, Cows need vegetation for food, does this make the cow greater that the vegetation because it is higher on the food chain, or is the vegetation greater because the cow relies on it for survival? So the vegetation dies for the cow to live, but when the cow dies (and not used for human food) it provides nutrients for the vegetation to grow, either by decay or through the feces of carnivore.

        Only humans judge life forms according to a "value". Every other life form enjoys the cycle of life. Each relying on each other for continued life of the species, which makes none of them lesser or greater than the others.

        The only Life Form that would be greater is one that does not depend on another for survival.
        And even "God" depends on faith, belief and worship of his followers to survive. Because without this faith, belief or worship from humans, there would be no such thing as "God"

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Who or What gets to decide the value of all life and thier varied positions in the pecking order?...I don't know.

          ...But they aren't all the same, therefore they aren't all equal.

          God does not depend on faith. God does NOT need our belief in God. People depend on faith, People Need beliefs. God does not need. People need.

          Believing or not believing I am Mikel G Roberts does not make me Mikel G Roberts. Being Mikel G Roberts makes me Mikel G Roberts.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Exactly, which is the problem in a nutshell.

          2. DoubleScorpion profile image86
            DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Ok.
            Are men and women equal? They are not the same sex.
            What about a white man and a black man are they equal? They are not the same color.
            Are two male lions 3 years in age equal? They are the same, both male, both lions, and both the same age.

            If there was no belief in "God", there would be no "God".

            If I believed you to be George, then to me you would be George, it wouldn't matter to me what you called yourself.

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Again your asking me to supply "the pecking order"

              I don't know what the pecking order is nor do I care what the pecking order is.

              The values that I hold as more dear/greater/better determine the placement listing in MY pecking order, as it will in everyone else's personal listing. Those lists will undoubtedly be different for every individual.

              None of which dis-proves the existence of a pecking order.

              Belief does not bring something into existence. If believing something created it then the world would be flat, because the vast majority of humanity at one time believed it to be flat.

              Being round makes it round, even if no one believes it.

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I am not asking you what is the pecking order. I am asking how it can be determined.

                If the pecking order is decided by the person and varies with each person, then it is nothing more than an opinion and is not factual.

                Which means "God" is nothing more than a person's opinion based on their perceived pecking order. Which would mean "God" is not a true life form, but rather a figment of one's imagination and beliefs.

                If beliefs do not bring things into existance, then how does a creationist hold that God created something from nothing?

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Again.

                  Belief does create.

                  It is or it isn't.

                  That's as simple as I can make it.

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    A belief in "god/s" created religion. A belief of freedom for all men created the United States. A belief in equality created minority rights. A belief in Christ created the Christian.

                2. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I do not believe mere humans have that ability.



                  Agreed. Believing your the best doesn't make you the best. Being the best makes you the best. One is opinion one is fact.



                  No. God is God even if no one "believes". Being God makes God, God.



                  No. Being God makes God, God. Being the best makes one the best, even if no one knows it or believes it.




                  You're assuming that creating requires belief. You're assuming an understanding of the process of creation. No one knows how something came from nothing. Saying it requires belief and simply by believing something makes it so is fallacy.

                  Having an opinion does not make the opinion a fact. Being a fact makes it a fact.

                  1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                    DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    You stated earlier, that God was "God- The best, the greatest form of life in existence, The Supreme Being." This does not agree with your above statement, As it has to be determined who or what is the "Best, the greatest for of life" and as you said earlier, that determination varies person to person, which means it is a question of a person's opinion. Not factual.
                       There are no facts without proof. We wasn't there, so we follow our beliefs on who, what or how the universe was created. So the creation, either Big Bang or God created, is based in beliefs.

                    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
                      Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Not knowing who God is does not destroy God. Not knowing who or what is the best does not mean there isn't one. Not knowing which thing is best does not mean a best does not exist. Having 4,000 different opinions by 4,000 different people does not change a fact, the Fact remains a fact irregardless of opinion.




                      No. Facts are facts even if they haven't been proven by humanity. A Fact is a fact even if every person in existence denies the validity of that fact. Facts are facts even if humanity doesn't know the fact exists. Believing a fact incorrect does not make it incorrect. The act of being a fact makes it a fact.

                      1+1=2  Fact.
                      Disbelief doesn't make it untrue. Not knowing 1+1=2 does not make it untrue. Not understanding how or why 1+1=2 does not make it become unfactual. Being unaware that a fact exists, doesn't make it non-existent. Believing 1+1=4645 does not make it true.

                      Discovering something is untrue, that was believed to be a fact, for instance: The Earth is flat. Doesn't mean facts can be incorrect, it means the incorrect belief never was a fact, we just (mistakenly) thought it was.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Then, your entire "proof" crumbles because it is based entirely on how you define the pecking order YOU created; higher, lower, etc.





                    Being the best at what? Please explain.



                    Circular reasoning. Another fallacy. Something cannot come into existence simply because you assert it makes itself exist.



                    Round and round we go... spin faster, faster, faster...



                    That is exactly what we've been trying to point out to you.



                    Where are the facts that support your Gods existence?

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Then, we have nothing to go on, your proof is pointless without explanation.



                Exactly, then someone came along with an "explanation" and the belief changed.

                We are still waiting for your explanation.

      5. Quilligrapher profile image90
        Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Mikel, Mikel, Mikel,….
        The rules of algebra can not be applied as rules of logic. Algebra and logic are two different disciplines.  Please read up on how to design a logical proof.  Your knowledge of algebra is leading you astray, my friend.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Got Proof? Algebra is a very logical science and is based in logic. Therefore is it very useable for this type of proof.



          Fallacy. They are in fact one and the same. Mathematics is one of the purest logical sciences because of it's objectivity.



          roll No it isn't, it is clearly illustrating my proven point.

          1. Quilligrapher profile image90
            Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The flaw in your logic is called a False Analogy. "A False Analogy is a faulty instance of an Argument from Analogy." What is an Argument from Analogy? ”It is the process of analogical inference involving the comparison of the shared properties of two or more things, and from this basis infering that they also share some further property." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy)

            When comparing “forms of life” you can not specify SOME properties of each are NOT IDENTICAL and then conclude ALL properties of each are NOT IDENTICAL. The property of lesser/greater could be equal in life forms even if they have other properties that are NOT IDENTICAL. Furthermore, you offer no proof that forms of life have a property called lesser/greater.

            I admit that your final conclusion may be correct, Mikel. But, setting our personal beliefs aside, your proof is flawed and your conclusion invalid even if it is true. 

            Look at what happens to one’s logic if you don’t specify the properties being compared. Gold and lead ARE forms of metals and they are not identical, then one MUST weigh less than the other. It’s possible to substitute other conclusions that may be true but are still quite invalid:
            ...then one must have more value than the other.
            …then one must be yellow.
            …then one must have a different atomic structure.
            These conclusions may be true but the logical argument is invalid because the stated analogy is faulty.

            Keep your faith, Mikel, but give up on your “proof” in its present form. The latter is flawed.

            Thanks for your patience with my comments. You are a true gentleman.

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Identifying the difference between two life forms is not essential. Quantifying every minute detail, every way two entities are the same and then how they differ is only important if your goal is to rate them in the pecking order.

              Which I have stated repeatedly that I am not. The last paragraph of the hub says this about my proof:

              Disappointed?


              Many have expressed a disapointment with this proof. Saying it doesn't prove anything at all. What they mean by that is it doesn't prove one group is right and another group is wrong about the nature of God. It doesn't provide support of what they believe to be the true nature of God. They say it doesn't force a consenses therefore it is useless. There is no power in the proof to make that group of people over there shut up about what they believe is true. That disappointment stems from them not getting what they were wanting, Power over other people.

              They wanted this proof to give them the power of righteousness over another group of people. They wanted to be able to use the proof of God's existence to enforce thier view of right and wrong. They were expecting it to make it so everyone would have to conform to an absolute standard of conduct and belief.

              It is true, this proof does not do any of that, it merely proves that God exists.

              1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this



                You have not proven that "God" exists. You have only provide what you use as proof for the existance of "God".

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Pure honesty? Or, something entirely different?

                It's interesting that you would make that claim openly on the very same forum in which many here have expressed their reasons why your proof is gumbo, and you have gone and made up something entirely different while completely ignoring what they said.

                It is truly remarkable the depths you believers will sink to defend your God.

              3. 0
                Emile Rposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                It isn't a proof Mikel. Disagreeing doesn't imply you are right. It means you are unwilling to accept the fact that your 'proof' is not what you think it is.

    4. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 5 years ago

      Here's your sign.  roll

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I suspect that you're not going to explain yourself. Failed. lol

    5. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago

      I've been away with work for a couple days so it's only now that I've had a chance to see where this thread went. Thanks for all the useful and honest answers here, and the debates that followed.

      Apologies for the misspelling in the title though. God didn't point that out to me.

    6. 60
      pinedalaleineSposted 5 years ago

      you need a revival in your life..and you are not a believer..You dont know God that much..

      1. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Please provide supporting evidence for your claims.

    7. LucidDreams profile image83
      LucidDreamsposted 5 years ago

      It is impossible to really know God as he never makes himself available to us. We just have to have FAITH! Many say they see Gods work each day but that again is believers having faith this is Gods work.

      When did the God you follow become a reality to people who worshipped him. Bet it was just a few thousand years ago at best. Why? Because the God that most Christians worship did not even exist until then. Althouth humans have existed for many thousands of years before that. A man made religion to explain why we exist and the hopes for a after life.

    8. lgallman profile image60
      lgallmanposted 5 years ago

      I am right there with you Disappearinghead; and couldn't have said it any better!

    9. lone77star profile image90
      lone77starposted 5 years ago

      @Disappearinghead, a powerful topic.

      Holding onto one's beliefs is never easy unless ego is involved. And that's the worst kind. Ego wraps itself in an entitlement to be right. It's an equal opportunity enslaver.

      Changing your beliefs can sometimes be a good thing. Shaking loose of dogma is especially refreshing.

      But still, choosing the right direction is never easy.

      To be honest, throwing in the towel on my search for spiritual Enlightenment has never happened. I have thought of throwing in the towel on certain approaches simply because they didn't work. But careful, some people throw out the baby with the bath water. Have you done that @Disappearinghead?

      Unanswered prayers? Hogwash! I wrote a hub on this topic. The only prayers that are "unanswered" are those that were never asked in the first place. Prayers are always answered instantaneously and in the affirmative. Ego would certainly like to get its hands on this kind of power, but thankfully ego only spoils the act of prayer.

      @Disappearinghead, I've asked for miracles and got them. Like I said: instantaneous and in the affirmative.

      Like pregnancy, you're either pregnant with the spirit or you are not. There is no half way on this. Even 99.999999% confidence is zero spirit and 100% fallible mortal.

      The object of religion, Homo sapiens species and civilization is the reawakening of each of the children of God trapped on this planet. They can only awaken themselves. God's intervention does not aid this goal. You have to take 100% responsibility. Only then will God show Himself.

      Got it? It's that simple.

      Sunday school teachings? I left my Southern Baptist minister grandfather's church when I was 9.

      I've looked at my doctrines. I've compared religions. I've studied Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, the Kabbalah and even Scientology. And now I'm a Christian in a denomination of one, recommending that everyone become Christians in their own denomination.

      My "teachings" not only stack up to reality, but surpass it.

      Quoting of scripture is not a cop out if there is understanding. And far too many do not understand what they quote.

      Even I have a long way to go before I know much of anything, but I've discovered many things that no one else has ever found including,

      * A biblical timeline compatible with those of science,
      * An understanding of the seemingly outrageous longevity of the early patriarchs,
      * The reason why God would give such incredible protection to a liar and a murderer (Cain),
      * The real culprit behind Noah's Flood,

      and a few other juicy tidbits. It takes profound humility to find answers. I keep working on this, too.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I like to think I let go of much of my ego a long time ago. This began when I let go of the dogma I was spoon fed in Church for many years. As to being in a denomination of one, I agree with you; it's where I find myself today.

        You say that your prayers and requests for miracles are always answered yes in the affirmative. Congratulations I'm very happy for you. My wife however has suffered one infirmity after another for 10 years, unfortunately not a single prayer has been answered with a yes and no miracles have happened. But heh that's just our experience talking; aka reality.

        The reason I asked for no scripture quotes in the OP is because of 25 years being in the Church, it gets a little tedious when Christians just tritely trot out their favourite scriptures as a cure all for life's ills that they have not experienced.

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That's very humble of you to say... openly. It definitely shows your first statement there to be true in this case.




        And the humility of your posts is astoundingly profound and garnered with things that no one else has ever found and probably never will.

     
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