Only an Intelligent Being could endow intelligence to others; universe or nature or evolution are deaf and dumb; they cannot bestow intelligence on others of their own; it is the Creator God- the Most-Intelligent the Most-Wise who has bestowed intelligence to others as per His design of evolving life.
Nice declaration of fact. Now can you back it up or is this just what you would like to be true as it reinforces your belief system?
What anomaly one sees in the above statement of fact? If one doesn't see any anomaly; and it is reasonable; why should one doubt it?
I can see that you are saying that an Intelligent Being endows intelligence. Maybe, the theory of evolution is one of god's way to show how human receive Intelligence. For me, I believe that humans are humans and not apes based on what Darwin says. Intelligence is given by the Creator and maybe the theory of evolution can be perceived as a way that god can give us intelligence
Humans are not apes. If we were, there would be no apes. We are cousins and evolved from a seperate species that is now extinct.
Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with believing in a higher power and accepting evolution. Of course, the bible contradicts this but then again, the bible aso contradicts itself.
"Humans are not apes. " should read "Humans are not evolved from apes. We are cousins and evolved from a seperate species that is now extinct."
I hate that i can't edit in the forums:(
Sure you can, at least until several hours have passed.
Click the "more" button under the post, then "edit".
Lol, I understand what you're saying amymarie_5. Thanks for the insight.
No problem. A lot of people don't realize that, most of us assume that Dawrin's theory means we came from primates but that isn't so.
We did come from primates, although our ancestor is none of the other great apes (hominids) extant today.
The primate order consists of many creatures that are not in the hominid family, such as lemurs and gibbons; they left our evolutionary tree long before the hominids began splitting off into their respective species such as gorilla, chimpanzee and orangutans. None of these, of course, were our ancestor, but they are primates and all are descended from primates.
You are correct, however, that Darwin did not theorize about the origin of homo sapiens; that his work indirectly pointed out that humanity was not created according to Genesis was bad enough. To actually say that we were evolved along with other animal was would have been absolutely intolerable. The conclusion may be completely obvious, but keeping quiet about it allowed poor Charles to at least keep his life.
Humans ARE primates. DNA (wirhin two points) proves that our closest cousin is the chimpanzee.
There is no God; there is no creator; there is no most wise.
Now - I have made a statement of fact. There is no more anomaly in it than there was in your statement. Why would you ever doubt it?
I repeat - can you back up your statement of fact, or is just your active imagination coupled with a complete lack of understanding of evolutionary processes that creates such statements?
There is an anomaly there; nothing exists on its own without a Creator except the Creator God who by definition exist on His own; so I have reason to disagree with you.
Yes, the exact same reason I have to disagree with you. You find my fact to be false and thus an anomaly; I find your fact to be false and thus an anomaly.
The difference seems to be that I recognize both "facts" as opinion and am interested in learning more about them while you do not. Your opinion is fact (according to you) and you aren't interested in providing reasons or learning any different.
If you wish to present an argument built on falsehoods or imagined premises you must be willing and able to show that the very root of your argument, the premise you start with, is indeed true. I repeat for the third time, can you back up your statement of fact or are you asking your readers to simply accept it? If the latter, why would I accept your unsupported word any more than you accept mine?
"nothing exists on its own without a Creator except the Creator God who by definition exist on His own"
I don't understand. Everything has a beginning and an end. Why would god be exempt?
Creator God by definition exists on his own. According to that logic, Webster created him by his own definition.
This I agree with.
You just haven't recognized God for exactly who and what He is...
I was referring, of course, to the tangent that Islam goes off onto, as paarsurrey's belief does inevitably.
But his statement in the original post is correct.
Actually, intelligence is never endowed. It's developed. So it's incorrect.
I disagree. A child at birth is intelligent (actually, I think they're intelligent before birth, but that's probably too deep an issue to go into right now?), and their level of understanding can be "developed", but I maintain that they're intelligent even before they experience things and places and language, etc. What I'm saying is, (and what I think paar is saying is) that intelligence is a basic trait of humans; and that trait is given to mankind by God.
I didn't expect you to agree.
And that would come from a poor understanding of intelligence.
Eh, no, it comes from an understanding of the definition of "intelligence". If you have a dictionary handy, would you look it up?
I think of intelligence being "developed" as through evolution. Humans have evolved to a point that they have the intelligence trait. We are capable of intelligence. So yes a baby is going to have intelligence. I'm not trying to say any other way of thinking is wrong. People are never going to agree.
Yes and no. If a chimp and human are raised together from birth, in the same environment, the chimp learns far faster than the human. It learns to control it's body and muscles faster, it learns about it's environment faster.
Until the child begins to learn language. At that point it's all over, and the child quickly outstrips the chimp in everything but body control; some of that is simple physical development and can't be rushed.
Is the chimp then more intelligent than the human until the language is learned? If the chimp had the anatomical ability to communicate via complex speech would it remain more intelligent and be writing hubs at the age of 3?
Intelligence isn't limited to humanity, and it is quite possible that a few animals (cetaceans maybe?) are as intelligent as humans but the cultural and physical differences as well as environment are simply so great that we cannot understand or recognize their intelligence yet. We're not smart enough to learn their language.
Chimp will never learn any meaningful language and to read or write or store his knowledge in different ways like using a computer for that as would a human being.
Whatever intelligence a chimp gets is endowed by the Creator God of course as per evolution as set by the Creator God.
All you do is state assumptions, over and over from every angle, but never really engaging with anyone else.
You noticed that too?
"I'm right and you're wrong, but I won't say why".
"I'm right and you're wrong, but I won't say why".
"I'm right and you're wrong, but I won't say why".
"I'm right and you're wrong, but I won't say why".
A broken record, and we all know what that's worth.
I have never heard paars say anything about his sacred book. All he does is spout the deviations in the Bible. I'd really like to hear comparisons but it leads me to believe he'a a fraud altogether not only in his debating skills but in his real knowledge of his favorite subject.
What's funny about that statement is even if a chimp is removed from other chimps, he will be able to communicate with others of his species (i.e. have meaningful communication) in a very short time after being reintroduced. Children who have been denied human contact for a long period of time go feral and often never learn how to speak, even after years of attempts to teach.
It is arrogant to say the least to assume that animals cant talk, they communicate with their own species all the time. They just don't talk to you. That's like saying that Serbians are unintelligent because YOU don't know what they are saying.
And Allah or Muhammad never used a computer either...
It is cruel to deprive one its natural and social habitat.
Thank you so very much for that lesson, I'll try to remember it. However, your statement in no way addresses what I said. I'll have to assume that's because you have nothing to say that does address the statement.
And because you find it cruel it must not be true and we won't talk about it.
Good answer. The speech center of the brain seems to atrophy and can never develop.
Does this then mean that we as parents actually develop intelligence in our children? Not just fill that intelligence with truth and facts as we know them, but develop the intelligence, the ability to think and reason, ourselves?
"Environmental Retardation" is the study of kids being brought up in an unstimulating environment. I'm not sure what thier results have been.
LOL, which results for what?
Psycheskinner could probably answer this one better than I, but largely these kids are feral. Scarred of people, non-verbal, animalistically violent (scratching and biting) They don't make eye-contact, dislike being touched, and don't respond well to loud noises and bright lights.
Interestingly enough, many of the symptoms of feral children are quite similar to those of extreme autism. I have my own theories on that. I think that because autistic children have such difficulties with social behavior and pull away so much from our world, that they pick up the same traits as those who have been deprived completely. (Although to a lesser extent)
My limited understanding of the research was that it had to do with non-retarded kids being raised by retarded parents and the possibility that the childs intellectual development would be lower based on the "environment" they were raised in.
Basically they would not receive the stimulous that children raised in a non-retarded environment would receive.
But that is the limit of my knowledge of it.
That goes into a whole debate within the developmental community. One that I am intensely interested in because of my daughters autism.
It seems (I wish that I could italize that) that there is quite a bit of evidence that children who are diagnosed with autism early enough can effectively be "cured" by intense intervention (ABA). The window is very small for effective therepy (around ages 2-4) after that ABA will still be beneficial for behaviors, but not so much for language.
From a personal standpoint, Lily (who was diagnosed profoundly autistic by several doctors) was caught within that small window. By using modified ABA (I don't believe in deterrents, only rewards) she is now just 8 months behind on expressive language, and actually slightly ahead of the curve on receptive language.
Had we not acted within the window, it is likely that as an adult she wouldn't have been speaking much better than she did at 24 months. (She hadn't learned a single word from 12 months to 24 months)
So, there seems-to me- that there is a switch there where the ability to learn to communicate is purely a social thing and if a child cannot make that switch, then extreme measures must be taken. My question to the "God created intelligence" thing, therefore becomes "Did God only create intelligence for some kids and expect the parents to do 6-10 hours of therapy a day for others to be at the same point? Why would he do that?
You can italicize - scroll down when posting and click the "formatting" button.
That's really great that you have been able to help Lily out - I had never seen or heard of anything like that. It is also evidence that you, not God, is responsible for giving intelligence to Lily.
As far as God creating intelligence, the stock answer seems to be that He is "testing" or maybe "tempering" you. Lily is immaterial and little more than a piece of furniture; God does not have a good record regarding the treatment of people other than the one He is currently interested in. Collateral damage is rather common - consider the destruction of innocent Egyptian children.
No, a whole group of people are responsible for giving Lily knowledge. Genetics is responsible for giving her autism. I have to think she was born with intelligence, and a great deal of it as well judging by her problem solving and reasoning skills.
Before intensive anger-management therapy, I once had a baptist preacher tell me that my son Kaine's birth defects were God's way of making me stronger. I told him to get away from me before I slapped the spit out of his mouth. Essentially he was trying to get me to convert (I was a Wiccan at that time) by telling me that God had made my kid sick on purpose.
The philosophical ramifications were me wondering if I could take God in a fair fight.
I am Christian, but I honestly don't know how I feel about the God thing. I don't know if he exists and I'm not sure that, if he does, that he really chooses to interfere in our lives on an individual basis.
The reply from the Baptist is exactly what I was referring to - God made Kaine the was he was (and didn't care what it did to Kaine) in order to temper, or strengthen, you. Kaine must suffer in order that you become a better worshipper.
Not a particularly smart explanation in my opinion (and your reaction bears this out), but one that is quite reasonable to organized religion. That it presents God as unable to climb the bottom rung of the Morality ladder doesn't occur to them.
My personal beliefs are that God made a promise to "creation". A promise God refuses to break. That promise was Freewill. So if a being with freewill chooses to use that freewill to do you harm, God will not stop them by preventing thier freewill.
Many times when people ask why? Why God didn't you do something to stop this? My thought is because a being with freewill chose to make the occurence happen.
In a nutshell, God has tied God's own hands with the promise to not interfere with the gift/curse of freewill.
I believe freewill is necessary, not optional, and that is why God allows it, even when we use it in an evil/bad way.
Hi Mikel. How does prayer work with this? You may or may not believe in the power of prayer, I don't know. Does God choose to answer a prayer/intervene only when it doesn't conflict with a persons free will?
I know you asked him, but I'm gonna answer too
In my case, a prayer to God is like a self-affirmation. I think prayers for thinks like strength and knowledge are regularly answered... (there's a whole discussion after that, but I'll save it) however I don't believe "God, let me win the lottery happens very often... and I know for a fact that no one has ever won the lottery without somehow getting a ticket.
In my opinion, Yes. God will not break the rules, freewill will not be taken away by God through supernatural methods (magic or miracles). That two people pit thier wills against each other and compete using thier own abilities, is something different and not to be confused with the former. Which is why the signs God has shown me are in private, or in ways that the signs affect me and only me. The freewill choice to believe or not believe in the existence of God would also be taken away if God merely forced us to believe.
Again in my opinion.
I was having this discussion with someone the other day. What we came down to is that sexuality is not a choice.
For example, you can choose who you sleep with, but you cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to.
A straight man cannot activelyby choice, turn himself gay and vice versa.
We all know the history of southern religious rednecks trying to turn gay people straight...
Having freewill should not be confused with having unlimited power.
Being human we must eat, our freewill does not mean we get to choose to eat or not eat without consequences.
As you said freewill only applies if we have a choice to make. We do not have a choice to die or not to die, that is beyond our power, to commit suicide 'today' is a choice we have power over, in that choice God will not take away our freewill.
Again the promise to not use supernatural power to block someone's free choice over the things we have power over and giving someone unlimited power over everything they interact with are two seperate issues.
We don't have power over who we fall in love with, but we have power to act on or not act on our emotions.
Indeed it shouldn't
Yes we can choose wether or not to eat. We cannot choose what tastes nice o us though can we?
We dont have power or we dont have a choice, or free will?
I'm not sure what to make of your response.
I sense a bit of anger at...?Yourself or God? maybe at the world??
I may be wrong there...
My point was: We do have freewill, we do not have 'unlimited' freewill.
I believe God loves diversity, because of that God has made each of us unique (in fact everything is unique, every tree, every leaf on every tree, every sunset, every animal, every blade of grass and so on...)
The things that God decides are as you mentioned, what tastes we prefer, whether we are gay or not, whether we are a part of this race or that race. Whether we are male or female or plant or who we fall in love with.
Where our freewill comes into play, is in those things we do, not those things we are. As we progress (as a species) the things we can do and therefore the choices we are allowed to make increase.
200 years ago a man could not decide to become a woman. Now a man can do that. 200 years ago a man could not fly....etc.
Very wrong. One cannot be angry at that which doesnt exist. I am also not angry with myself or the world. Where did you get that from?
Then we dont have free will. That is like saying a prisoner is free to do whatever he wants as long as he doesnt leave his cell. You are either free or you are not. There is no half free.
Why would you believe that which has no evidence, no, even evidence to the contrary?
So we're not free then. God controls us.
Again, you cannot put limits on freedom. You are either free or you are not, by definition of the word "free".
Indeed. We have evolved.
I'm not sure...intuition.
AHHh...you're an all or nothing type. It is either Black or it is White, there is no gray. Hot or Cold, no warm. Top or Bottom, no middle. Gotcha. I disagree. There are unlimited shades of everything. There are levels and then there are levels.
Do you mean God? I have scientifically proven the existence of God, but I believed before I proved it.
We are free, with limits. As I said,"Where our freewill comes into play, is in those things we do, not those things we are.
Again, I disagree, there are shades of gray and by your definition we have no ability to choose anything at all, since we can't choose everything there is.
The Creator God has many attributes; some of these are mentioned in the following verses of Quran:
[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
[112:3] ‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
[112:5] ‘And there is none like unto Him.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … php?ch=112
I know you don't believe in Quran; but the attributes mentioned in it are a must for the Creator God being reasonable; I am just pointing out that. Just focus on the reason part.
I don't see the universe, nature, and evolution as deaf and dumb. I'm not sure how those things can be anything other than what they are. I don't agree that the only way we are intelligent is because an intelligent being.
Did universe talk to anybody? Quote the Word from Universe, please.
Have you never heard a birdsong, then? That you can't understand or interpret it, as you do the scriptures, is your fault, not the birds.
Have you never heard the brook rushing down the mountain? It will tell you much about gravity.
The motion of the galaxies around us will tell you about creation, but only if you listen. If you close your eyes to it and stick to your false beliefs you will never learn.
You must open yourself to truth, use your evolution provided senses, to see and hear the Word from the Universe. It will be given to you, but only if you are open to it and seek it.
So who endowed intelligence on the intelligence higher being? Or did he just... evolve?
He just always has been, is, and will be.
By definition the Creator God is being on His own; so the question is not valid. Sorry for that.
I feel like a being on my own too, so I guess it makes sense that I evolved.
p.s. a question can only be invalid if you are unwilling to even consider the existence of multiple possible answers.
If you are going to argue philosophy using logic Please, Please, PLEASE at least do some research on how to do it right... read a book, google it, or better yet take a class. I'm not saying your beliefs are wrong, but the way you are arguing them is so full of argumentative/logical fallacies that you are actually making me wince.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility that conciousness, or maybe life, or maybe both,may be a building block of the universe, like matter, energy, and dimensions.
This is absolutely correct - BUT only if intelligence is bestowed - when of course it developed through evolution.
If you are claiming that intelligence is an element of humanity that was 'bestowed' then who 'bestowed it' on your god ? and you are back to the usual problem with your idea.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but isn't our intelligence evolving? Each subsequent generation is more intelligent than the rest, according to the IQ test. You have to adjust for age before coming up with the final number. My son and I both took the same test and, although I missed a few he didn't; they spotted me five points because of my age. It made our end number the same.
Over all it is evolving; as new tools are evolved
So, you admit intelligence is evolved. Why the OP then?
that doesn't make sense. People create tools. People who are evolving.
I have to agree. Intelligence is the capacity for learning, while Knowledge (which is essentially what is tested on most I.Q. tests) is the acquired knowledge.
Our capacity to learn is being expanded by knowledge (i.e. we are finding more efficient ways to teach) which, in turn, is expanding our knowledge base. Kinda neat.
I think what we should really think of is what kind of intelligence are we looking at? Social? Emotional? Academic?
Paarsurrey, your declaration about a supernatural being endowed us with intelligence doesn't make any sense. There are simply no facts or evidence to support your statement. This is the same problem with followers of intelligent design belief. Again there is no evidence to support it.
I came across a few statements from an article I read a few months ago in a website talking about whether or not God created the universe. Here are the following statements made by that author:
Once again people are saying that science is answering questions above its pay grade. Why? If theology asserts that the universe was created by god, why shouldn't science address this question?
I'm tired of cowardice guiding the conversation in our culture. For any one sitting on the fence post, let me show you your two choices.
1. There are thousands of supernatural explanations in which a god creates the reality you perceive, yet none offer any kind of verification of their claims.
2. There is a self contained explanation for existence, which can be verified through evidence and mathematics. No god is required.
You can believe whatever you want, but don't pretend the second choice doesn't exist. If you have your doubts about it, you're in luck. Unlike the first choice, we have at our disposal the ability to review the evidence and logic used to arrive to this conclusion.
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