What is Your Reason?

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AshtonFireflyposted 12 years ago
I've been browsing through various religious forums and debates on this site, and it's led me to ask this question of those who believe in God or any religion in which a deity is involved: what is it that made you start believing what you believe in the first place? I'm a fan of psychology as well as religion and I just thought it would be interesting psychologically to see what the responses were.

Please no bashing or debates I'm directing this towards those who embrace a particular religion and am simply interested in how and why they started to believe what they believe....
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Religions always plan to indoctrinate children. Teaching religion to an adult is hard work because religions are absurd and often transparently so. In contrast teaching religion to children is easy. Children are susceptible and suggestible. It doesn't sound like far-fetched nonsense to a child, children are credulous."
  
  http://mwillett.org/atheism/religion-is-child-abuse.htm
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And yet people of all ages become christians. In some countries these ADULTS risk home, family and personal injury. In some countries it takes guts to believe in Jesus, I said GUTS - intestinal fortitude.
  In some countries people risk death because they mentioned Jesus.
  
  God i wish you would incorporate more facts into your narrow thinking and get a larger world view.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How utterly ridiculous it is for people to do such things over imaginary sky fairies.
  
  Sorry bro, but the vast majority of Christians are such due to being brainwashed during childhood.
  
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Umm...please no debates here people.
  I know you two are like, mortal enemies, but this stuff is already being debated in about three or more other threads...in other words...
  "By golly this is my Thread! I say what goes here!!" (stomps foot)
  Just kidding.
  But really, I started this thread just so people could tell what they believe and why, without judgement.
  Please?
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  Benoitsmidgetposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe it's brainwashing, I believe it's called faith. Everyone needs something to believe in.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly what the brainwashed say, too.
  
  No, not everyone. The brainwashed need something to believe in.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  brainwashed lol
  Brainwashed indicates that a person has no choice, but as is commonly known there is choice. People leave and come back to the faith.
  
  Your fanaticism is way out of control.
  Got ulcers yet?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see you're not familiar with the term...
  
  Brainwashed: persuade completely, often through coercion; indoctrination.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A Troubled Man, I'm just curious, what do you hope to gain on these type of forums by just dismissing everything as "fairy tales"? If I was in your position, I'd dismiss Christians as nuts and move on because you can't reason with nuts.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To add, often we regard things as fairy tales when he don't understand something. The thought of aliens genetically modifying man sounds bizarre but is believed to be the case of some scientists, Francis Crick being one of them and he is the founder of the helix of DNA. I seems bizarre that aliens came to earth and built the pyramids, or gave the technology, but recently an Egyptian archaeologist said it is most likely the case. I think it's weird to think that people believe, like the Freemasons, that a being from the star Sirius came to earth and imparted technology and science.
  
  So are all these people crazy? Brainwashed?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is the theory of "Panspermia" which has been criticized due to infinite regress.
  
  That's just nonsense. No archaeologist would ever make such statements without evidence. Besides, they have already shown how the pyramids were built by hordes of people.
  
  No, but someone is seriously confused.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! By hordes of people! LMAO! You try and get a some slaves climbing at an obtuse angle hauling up those bricks which today's crane's can barely pick and carrying them to the top. That's as plausible as, um, demons are, I suppose.
  
  Excerpt from below article:
  
  "UFO Aliens may have helped build Pyramids of Giza says, Cairo university archeologist
  
  "Head of the Cairo University Archaeology Department, Dr Ala Shaheen in December 2010 had told an audience that there might be truth to the theory that aliens helped the ancient Egyptians build the oldest of pyramids, the Pyramids of Giza.
  
  On being further questioned by Mr Marek Novak, a delegate from Poland as to whether the pyramid might still contain alien technology or even a UFO with its structure, Dr Shaheen, was vague and replied “I can not confirm or deny this, but there is something inside the pyramid that is “not of this world”.
  
  Delegates to the conference on ancient Egyptian architecture were left shocked, however Dr Shaheen had refused to comment further or elaborate on his UFO and alien related statements."
  
  http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2011/03/egyp … amids.html
  
  There are actual depictions in the tombs of what we classify as the typical alien appearance, i.e, the grey ones with the big black eyes.
  
  The Egyptians clearly had some kick-ass knowledge. The mathematics that went into designing the pyramids is astonishing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You suppose wrong. Obviously, you haven't even taken the time to find out yourself. No, they weren't hauling those bricks up obtuse angles. Huge ramps were built to move the 2.5 ton stones from the ground after they were dragged from the quarries. Seriously, there is plenty of information about this.
  
  Here is the good doctors response to that garbage...
  
  "Kindly be informed that I did not gave such stupid statement[s] about aliens and Pyramids. As [I am] Egyptologist I could [not] say such stupid words and ideas." December 1, 2010
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you get what I am saying. Cranes today can barely believe the weightier blocks. And how on earth do you get a 2.5 ton onto a ramp? How was a block, 80 tons is the most recorded, put onto a ramp and somehow the ramp hoists itself up to the top? Ramps would NEVER support the weight of these blocks. What were the ramps made of by the way? How did they move? The temples were made of stone of 100 tons. Some 200 tons. A 100 ton block is tantamount to 100 family cars compressed together.
  
  Someone had to coordinate the construction. The builders needed to be able to interpret the maths that went into it. You have to understand mathematics to be able to cut the appropriate stones.
  
  Give me the information that proves what you just claimed!
  
  Also, where did the Egyptians get their superior mathematical knowledge?
  
  Egyptians kept very careful records about everything they ever did; every king they had, every war they fought, and every structure they built, there were no records of them ever having built the pyramids? Do you know of the records?
  
  The height of the pyramid (481 feet) is almost exactly 1/1,000,000,000 of the distance from the earth to the sun (480.6 billion feet)?
  
  Ha, ha about the alien garbage. I am NOT in the least bit surprised as what I deduce is most likely back-tracking. Claiming the unconventional CAN ruin a career. It's like a journalist who deviates from the contrived version of events.
  
  Considering the impossibility of actually moving the 80 ton stones and the astounding mathematics involved, we have to deduce that outside factors must have been involved. Beings with superior knowledge that us people just didn't possess at the time.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYsZNLZdC2s
  
  Watch this.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html
  http://www.amazon.com/dp/0500050848/?ta … verfl08-20
  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/wh … amids.html
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This internal ramp theory is just nonsense and completely unproven.
  
  From Wikipedia:
  
  "Houdin's thesis remains unproven and as late as 2007, UCL Egyptologist Prof David Jeffreys described the internal spiral hypothesis as "far-fetched and horribly complicated", while Oxford University's Prof John Baines, declared he was "suspicious of any theory that seeks to explain only how the Great Pyramid was built".[34] However, one piece of evidence for it has surfaced. In 1986 a French survey team did a micro-gravimetric analysis of the structure. Not included in their final report, but clearly visible in some unpublished plottings, is a spiral feature in the right place.[35] Houdin believes his theory will soon be proved or disproved by one of a number of well-understood techniques, even infrared photography of the pyramid cooling in the evening.[36]"
  
  It is agreed, however, that the spiral could never be used to lift up the 60 ton bricks. So the external ramps are supposed to have been used. The problem with this is not only does the author contradict himself by saying the external ramp theory cannot explain how the bricks were lifted but later down in the article, he says the external ramps were in use until the 60 ton bricks were hauled up, not explaining how hordes of men could pick up even possibly lift them off the ground!
  
  It is agreed, however, that the spiral could never be used to lift up the 60 ton bricks. So the external ramps are supposed to have been used. The problem with this is not only does the author contradict himself by saying the external ramp theory cannot explain how the bricks were lifted but later down in the article, he says the external ramps were in use until the 60 ton bricks were hauled up, not explaining how hordes of men could pick up even possibly lift them off the ground!
  
  Third link quote:
  
  "Our stones were delivered by a flatbed truck as opposed to barges; we didn't reconstruct the barges that brought the 60-ton granite blocks from Aswan."
  
  My point exactly. Nothing proves the barges could possibly have transported the 60 ton granite blocks from the quarries. Can an iron winch pull the 60 ton slabs away from the quarries? Answer that question. Can 2 to 4 men drag a 60 ton slab from the quarries?
  
  So you need to answer the following answered questions:
  
  How did the ramps support the 60 ton slabs? What were they made of and how were those slabs lifted off the ground in the first place?
  
  How did the builders understand the measurements needed to cut the appropriate blocks? Why did the Egyptians not keep records of building the pyramids in the first place?
  
  I can entertain the idea that the Egyptians built the pyramids with alien technology. In that case, they would have the tools like we have today, or even better, to construct the pyramids. Saw marks have even been discovered. Watch that History Channel documentary I referred you to.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, pure nonsense, I can now see how logic would dictate aliens came here and built them as opposed to using ramps.
  
  Since you decided to use wiki, have a look at the very long list of obelisk's and stones transported and erected over the centuries...
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la … _the_world
  
  So, you immediately jump to the conclusion a giant alien ship used it's "stone lifting beam" to do the work?
  
  Hilarious. You obsess about a 60 ton slab when the vast majority of stones were 2.5 tons, easily moved by a handful of men.
  
  Many stones and obelisk's much larger than 60 tons have been transported and erected by men, not aliens.
  
  Yes, I'll just toss any archeological papers and all scientific data in the trash and watch the History Channel to get my answers. Stunningly hilarious.
  
  Alien technology.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you actually read the links you post? The only ones who could lift these obelisks with the available technology were those people from Ancient Greece (starting 8th century BC) and Ancient Rome (starting 8th BC) and they had cranes and treadwheels. The pyramids were built in 3000BC with no cranes whatsoever, according to the official version. Even the weights of the obelisks lifted in Ancient Rome and Greece and the like are estimated versions and often exaggerated.
  
  The Stone of the South obelisk in Baalbek, Lebanon, made 3000 years ago, weighs a whopping 1200 tons!
  
  So, tell me how the 80 tons bricks of the pyramids were lifted onto the ramps and dragged from the quarries. And while you explain that to me, tell me how the Stone of the South was even lifted from the ground.
  
  It's hilarious to think a couple of men erecting a 1200 ton obelisk 3000 years ago. The mind boggles. But of course you will have the answer. You know everything.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  From the link that I read...
  
  "And in a NOVA experiment we found that 12 men could pull a one-and-a-half-ton block over a slick surface with great ease. And then you could come up with very conservative estimates as to the number of men it would take to pull an average-sized block the distance from the quarry, which we know, to the Pyramid. And you could even factor in different configurations of the ramp, which would give you a different length.
  
  You need 340 stones delivered every day, and that's 34 stones every hour in a ten-hour day, right? Thirty-four stones can get delivered by x number of gangs of 20 men, and it comes out to something like 2,000, somewhere in that area. We can go over the exact figures. So now we've got 1,200 men in the quarry, which is a very generous estimate, 2,000 men delivering. So that's 3,200."
  
  Yes, I know your mind is boggled with such things and they're hilarious but that doesn't mean there aren't relevant terrestrial explanations.
  
  What is mind-boggling and hilarious are grown adults who jump to conclusions of alien technologies.
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I just don't know what to say. How many times am I to ask you how on earth 1200 ton and 80 ton stones were lifted onto a ramp with the ramp being able to support such a weight? I'm not talking about 1 or 2 ton bricks. And I wonder what sort of slick surface the Egyptians used to haul the bricks from the quarries?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "It has been claimed by some that moving the largest of the Egyptian blocks would be beyond our modern-day technological capacity, even with the use of cranes and other heavy equipment. Such arguments are false. In 1999 it became necessary to move the 208-foot tall Cape Hatteras lighthouse to a location more than a half-mile away. The lighthouse weighs 4,830 tons and had to be moved in one piece in its upright position. How was this achieved?
  
  The use of cranes was impractical, and the actual technique used was very similar to that ascribed to the ancient Egyptians. First, the lighthouse was undercut and shored using timber (see photo below). One hundred hydraulic jacks were installed on rollers to slide along steel track beams placed beneath the lighthouse. A road was made by compacting the natural sands, overlaid with crushed stone, and finished with steel mats. Five hydraulic push jacks slowly shoved the lighthouse along the track beams in five-foot increments. The track was lubricated with soap shavings to reduce friction. The move, from start to finish, took 23 days"
  
  http://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, so the Egyptians had hydraulic jacks on rollers sliding along track beams? Huh?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It seems obvious, once again, that you don't wish to believe anything other than alien intervention. Oh well.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This internal ramp theory is just nonsense and completely unproven.
  
  Houdin's thesis remains unproven and as late as 2007, UCL Egyptologist Prof David Jeffreys described the internal spiral hypothesis as "far-fetched and horribly complicated", while Oxford University's Prof John Baines, declared he was "suspicious of any theory that seeks to explain only how the Great Pyramid was built".[34] However, one piece of evidence for it has surfaced. In 1986 a French survey team did a micro-gravimetric analysis of the structure. Not included in their final report, but clearly visible in some unpublished plottings, is a spiral feature in the right place.[35] Houdin believes his theory will soon be proved or disproved by one of a number of well-understood techniques, even infrared photography of the pyramid cooling in the evening.[36]
  
  It is agreed, however, that the spiral could never be used to lift up the 60 ton bricks. So the external ramps are supposed to have been used. The problem with this is not only does the author contradict himself by saying the external ramp theory cannot explain how the bricks were lifted but later down in the article, he says the external ramps were in use until the 60 ton bricks were hauled up, not explaining how hordes of men could pick up even possibly lift them off the ground!
  
  Third link quote:
  
  "Our stones were delivered by a flatbed truck as opposed to barges; we didn't reconstruct the barges that brought the 60-ton granite blocks from Aswan."
  
  My point exactly. Nothing proves the barges could possibly have transported the 60 ton granite blocks from the quarries. Can an iron winch pull the 60 ton slabs away from the quarries? Answer that question. Can 2 to 4 men drag a 60 ton slab from the quarries?
  
  So you need to answer the following answered questions:
  
  How did the ramps support the 60 ton slabs? What were they made of and how were those slabs lifted off the ground in the first place?
  
  How did the builders understand the measurements needed to cut the appropriate blocks? Why did the Egyptians not keep records of building the pyramids in the first place?
  
  I can entertain the idea that the Egyptians built the pyramids with alien technology. In that case, they would have the tools like we have today, or even better, to construct the pyramids. Saw marks have even been discovered. Watch that History Channel documentary I referred you to.
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  LewSethicsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Transpremia is the theory that says that organic material from first and second generation star systems (which have already gone nova etc) is flying through space, and some of it landed on primeval earth to seed life.
  No need for intelligent beings in the theory.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No one can say for sure how these structures were made. Not you, not me, not anyone. Were you there at the time of there construction? If not than it is better to be more open minded when discussing how such a large undertaking was carried out.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Were you there when Jesus was crucified and resurrected?
  
  Notice that your argument doesn't hold water?
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Were you? So you can't say it didn't happen either.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly my point.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good answer...I like it.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are proving to be one of the most judgmental writers on this website. You don't want the truth about anything you just want to be right about everything. I was not there at the time of the Yeshua as you were not there while they constructed the Pyramids. That is a statement of the obvious not an argument at all. All you did was repeat my question then said that my argument does not hold water. You did not disprove anything that is all you wrote. You are an idiot sir please stop posting for your own benefit you are only making others laugh at you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Who have I judged and what judgement have I made?
  
  Nonsense, I always seek the truth about everything. Where have I ever claimed I want to be right about everything?
  
  Yes, it is a statement of the obvious for both of us, a statement that does not hold water for you or for me. In other words, it is irrelevant.
  
  Ah yes, the believer has nothing to offer but personal insults.
  
  You see, if I were as thin skinned as others here, I could report you for that insult and you would be sent to the Time Out room.
  
  Please, laugh at me all you want.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's what historic records are for.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are no historic records about Jesus. Duh.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, there are.
  
  Duh.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I can see the tremendous amount of evidence you've provided. .
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I an see the tremendous amount of evidence you've provided...
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did provide all the historical evidence for Jesus. Notice there was nothing there?
  
  Are you a parrot?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We still have to try to reason with the nuts in order to change our world for the better. Moving on will just allow Christians to be nuttier.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, we must reason with the nuts. Otherwise, atheists WILL get even nuttier!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can't reason with mad people! Don't you know that? You can try till kingdom come but you won't succeed so perhaps you should just concede defeat. When I see someone cannot be reasoned with, I switch off. I'm not a sucker for punishment.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, are you saying I should just 'switch off'?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. You can't reason with insane people.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This link is for the nut A Troubled Man and others whose religion is science. This is not my attempt to explain creationism either. I believe that the two should marry and find out the truth together.
  
  http://lifeafterdeath.info/Scientific-Evolution.htm
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Another cheap shot by the believer.
  
  Thanks for the link, Mr. Sandhu merely parrots many of the tired and old false premises and lies spewed by most believers. Pure garbage.
  
  Science and religion will not "marry" as they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, the false premise of the close-minded.
  
  At least you're honest about what you believe.
  
  Science and Christianity are not inherently antithetical. Science explains the way God ordered Creation.
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. That's how Christians bend their fantasies to understand science.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Not particularly original, nor terribly well thought-out, but then knee-jerk reactions are often the funniest!
  
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christians talking about originality in any context, makes the funniest joke of the millennium.
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  tonka21posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  at the end of ur life, as u stand before God, we'll see whose laughing, its not gonna be the non believer.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which God are you going to stand before? All of them, perhaps?
  
  If you've chosen one God out of the many you stand before, what do you think the other Gods are going to do with you?
  
  At the very least, the non believer was honest enough not to chose any one of them. The Gods in their wisdom will know they can't do anything to him other than show mercy for being honest.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trust me, not even close to as funny as yours!
  
  Originality requires actual thought. I'm not seeing it here. Repetition of accusation is not the same.
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trusting a person like you who believe in creationism must be the cold day in hell for me. As for originality, religion that copied its practices from others and leeched onto science to protect their faith has nothing original to defend for, so as i said it's damn hilarious when likes of you claim "originality requires thought".
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "As for originality, religion that copied its practices from others and leeched onto science to protect their faith has nothing original to defend for'
  
  Hmm, vituperative...adamantine....lacking in understanding of history...insultive...not in the least original...showing no inclination to actually engage in the sort of brainwork you accuse me of lacking...yep!
  I got it!
  
  You're just as funny as troubledman!
  
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As i said it's funny when Christians accuse you for something they lack and make smilies to troll around. Lacking understanding of history ? that's funny at it's best. It's so typical from Christians, I wonder if there is any brainwork ever involved when they do engage in debate?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "As i said it's funny when Christians accuse you for something they lack and make smilies to troll around. Lacking understanding of history ? that's funny at it's best. It's so typical from Christians, I wonder if there is any brainwork ever involved when they do engage in debate?"
  
  Now THAT's funny! Do the very thing you accuse me of, only better! Then, when I call you on it, you try to turn the tables. Nice try.
  
  Predictable, and funny!
  
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  lone77starposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. Beautifully put, Chris.
  
  I don't happen to agree with the long-winded stuff at Druid's link. Creationism's attacks on science are full of BS (and that's not "bachelor of science," either).
  
  Creation is superior to science and yes, science studies the products of creation.
  
  Simple.
  
  The two realms are quite different, but they have a great deal in common, too.
  
  I happen to believe in evolution, that humanity is at least 200,000 years old and that the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
  
  I've seen miracles and I've seen science. I love them both. But when given a choice, I'll take God and spirituality any day over science and secularism.
  
  I love my computer science, astronomy, geology, mathematics (including calculus and 3D matrix math), and others, but they pale in comparison to our spiritual half and its likeness to the Heavenly Father.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I've recently been hearing about the experiments they've been conducting in hopes to support the "Invisible Sky Fairy and Satanic War Theory"
  
  Here are two of the leading experts explaining the theory...
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT_8vVlG … re=related
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Troubled man they are not on opposite ends of the spectrum. God asks Job if he can place the earth in the heavens. He asks Job if he can put the electomagnetic forces that surround the pleiades. It is not "Christian nuts" who are unbending. Christians do believe in the super intelligence it took to create the universe. That is marriage.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  <--- coveted double laughie
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  tonka21posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have to worry about "other gods", there is only one God & He is the God of all creation, whether you believe that or not doesn't change a thing, you are free to believe what you want, I'm not trying to change your mind, that's between you & God, perhaps if you opened your heart as we"ll as your mind you might see things in a new light. In the bible God says," I put before you life & death, choose life". I'll pray for you troubled, you seem like someone who could use it.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So sayeth every religion and every believer on the planet. I like to call it the 'God Multiplication Factor' which is the number of different versions of God times the number of different perceptions of God. Funny thing though, the results appear to indicate there are an infinite amount of Gods existing.
  
  Actually, I would only need to open my mind... and remove the frontal lobe.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! I thought you already had!
  
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
  1) .info domain name
  2) no credible references or credible objection
  3) lots of word salad
  4) typical creationism attacks and questions
  5) fantasy bs..
  
  yeah, will surely work on anyone who hates scrutiny like this or any mystic who enjoys such garbase as it pleases their mood.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You provided nothing, and so far that's all you got.
  
  No evidence, no proof, just an ability to sit back and sneer then congratulate yourself that you're right and you've won.
  
  So, enjoy your victory! You've earned exactly.....nothing!
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its nearly impossible to reason with them because they believe that they are an exclusive group. They have the truth and no one can see the truth unless they join in with them. Unless these "believers" have an experience in their live that makes them more observant they will not change.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many people don't want to change. Just being where they are makes them feel safe. I believe it is dangerous not to be open-minded.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're not that mature, are you?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He gets a jolly trying to rouse christians to be angry, thats how he proves they are not christians.
  circular thinking?
  A christian was mad at me therefore there is no God
  or just nutty reasoning?
  
  Don't play into his game and perhaps he will eventually get bored
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So Christians never get angry?? Huh? Jesus got angry. Yes, that is nutty reasoning.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christians do get angry generally and hopefully with a good reason of course. We don't make people angry just because we have a low level of maturity.
  recall that famous scripture:
  Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
  
  how is christianity doing over there in africa?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So what does the "children brainwashing" group suggest? People having children and not instilling their own belief systems? Obviously not a parent.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you all have been brainwashed into believing science which you, yourself, are not educated enough to prove the validity of. The theories that you embrace are the product of the planets greatest minds...and you really do have to have faith in them to believe what they tell you. If you deny this, then, explain in detail what exactly String theory is, how it came about, and the implications from it...otherwise you are as brainwashed as the rest of us. Have a nice day:)
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, so are the scientists that develop medical techniques and medicines that save lives, as are the scientists that put probes around Uranus.
  
  Once again, the religiously indoctrinated are foiled at attempts to understand the thinking process, the scientific method or reality.
  
  The believer will pull out of thin air concepts they themselves have no inkling or capability to understand even it was explained to them. They wave it about frantically, posturing to having seized an imaginary victory to their imaginary gods credibility.
  
  Having a nice day, indeed.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Man, you just get better with age!
  
  The problem is not that many believers don't understand the science they argue with. The problem is that many atheists also don't understand the science they try to beat us over the head with. But they cover up by psychologizing believers into straw-men they can feel good about knocking down, therefor never actually getting to know WHY we believe.
  
  Be comfortable, my friend, you are successful at what you do.
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The atheist will make an attempt to understand the science while the believer will not and instead just refuse or deny it, just like you do. Huge difference.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, there is that innate knowlege again!
  
  I do love you, you are so funny!
  
  Wrong, but funny!
  
  "just like you do"
  
  And you pretended to laugh at me when I said you get indignant!
  
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  tonka21posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  that is an untrue statement, I am a believer & i have studied evolution & big bang theories, the scienctist that is in a wheel chair & talks with aid of computer generated voice explains big bang theory the best, his conclusion is that before big bang time did not exists, therefore God could not exists, what he doesn't take into consideration is that God exists in the spirit world, who knows if time exists there, time could exists but follow different rules, in short it did nothing to sway my beliefs, nothing can do that. the show just made me feel sorry for him, not only is is suffering thru life but he will also suffer thru death being seperatrd from God. my beliefs can only help me live a more peaceful happy life, if I'm wrong no harm done, but if ur wrong u have everything to lose
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I'm quite sure he took that ridiculous belief into consideration.
  
  Yes, I know no amount of evidence or reality phases the believer in the least, except when it suits their purposes.
  
  Your childish threats of being separated from the bogie man are laughable.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Yes, I know no amount of evidence or reality phases the believer in the least, except when it suits their purposes."
  
  I do love when your four fingers point back at you!
  
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But how do you explain when someone lives and beats all the odds. And the doctors cannot even explain it. Can you see that side too. Probably not...closed minded atheist.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those are few and far between and have nothing to do with your magical sky fairies. Just because a doctor cannot explain something doesn't mean your God waved his magic hand and fixed it.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see so now it suites you to say it is unknown. Funny how that is.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yah people who believe in evolution are deceived. Did anyone notice that fossils are found fully developed phyla? In all the millions of years is there any sign of plant evolution today? Do they know the leg bone is connected to the knee bone and is just because it is smaller is not a reason to believe it morphed into bigger. Do they conclude that apes have the same skeletal structure as man because there is only so much variation that can occur when dealing with sinew, muscle, bone and flesh. Do any of these evolutionists realize how much organization is needed to create one single celled organism? and that organism is not life because life needs to process energy, store information and replicate?
  Talk about the brainwashed on the planet
  You are getting a double doctrine. The powers that be want you to believe that science has all the answers when it does not, it is just a well practiced speculist.
  They cant even date things accurately
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Teaching children instead of indoctrinating them with religious dogma IS being a parent.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless of course your wrong doctrine of no god is what you will be indoctrinating you children with.
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  Beebuzbyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  TM, What are you teaching them? Just curious...
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What we understand about the world around us.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  or what we are indoctrinated to understand about the world around us.
  
  You don't believe in eternity, yet our sun has a life of 4 billion years. The earth has been around you say for how many millions of years? and yet some speculate that 2,000 yrs is to long a time for God. lol.
  
  the Cambrian era. BAM! fossils in full phyla! abound innumerable. Nothing to speak of before this era, nothing to speak of after this era.
  Hmmm... and God created what on the third day?
  
  Could the earth be older than the stars.. he created the earth first then the stars. hmmm.
  
  The animals on the 5th day, BAM in whole unevolved stages.
  the java man... the top of a skull, 3 teeth and a femur bone... and lots of imagination lol.
  archeopteryx is a bird not a missing link.
  
  The double doctrine of aristotle and platos day has evolved... into the science forum of today! Science is being used to distract people from religion even though scientists know as did darwin, there are obvious flaws in darwinian evolution. Many scientists even say "Darwinism is absurd".
  Johnathan wells has doctorates in science, biology, vertebrate embriology, etc.. says:
  "As an illustration of the fossil record, darwins' tree of life is a dismal failure, but it is a good illustration of darwins theory."
  Francis Crick - nobel prize winner for discovering the molecular structure of DNA, a noted biochemist, says: "An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
  
  One really needs to dig into these things before saying they are facts or that they understand them. You are just being manipulated.
  
  The big bang model has impressive scientific credentials supporting it but... the big bang was not a chaotic, disorderly event. Instead, it appears to have been fine tuned for the existence of intelligent life with a complexity and precision that literally defies human comprehension. The universe we see today and our very existence depends upon a set of highly special initial conditions. Strong evidence that the big bang was not an accident but designed.
  This has lead to a high amount of speculation because many scientists are not comfortable with the credentials that need to be achieved to get it all right. We are complex beyond complexities and everything has to be tuned in just right, like as a radio, one degree off either way and no clear station.
  Agnostic American astronomer Robert Jastrow, 'The emperors new mind' 1989 p344 said: "The essential element in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same; the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply, at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy."
  
  The Kalam argument states that not everything has a cause, only that which 'begins to exist' has a cause. The big bang is the universe as it begins to exist. So the question who created God does not apply here as God never began to exist as he is timeless - time therefore only existing as something begins to exist, therefore to account as God being the cause of the big bang is completely acceptable.
  
  So what are you teaching us? To accept by blind faith what science says in the text books of school.
  
  A 7 part PBS television series Evolution asserted, quite absolutely. that ALL known scientific evidence upholds Darwinian evolution and that virtually ALL reputable scientists agree. This caused quite a stink in the scientific community.
  Such a stink that 100 anthropologists, biologists, cell biologists, bio-engineers, geologists, organic chemists, astrophysicists, zoologists and other scientists came together with their doctorates from Berkley, Cambridge, Chicago, Duke, Michigan, Princeton, Purdue, Rutgers, Syracuse, Yale and other prestigious universities.
  Included among these were professors from Yale Graduate School, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Emory, George Mason, Lehigh, Tulane, Rice and the Universities of California, Washington, Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Ohio, Colorado, Nebraska and many more.
  Also, The director of the Center of Computational Quantum Chemistry and scientists at the Plasma Physics Lab at Princeton, Lawrence Livermore Laboratory even the Natural Museaum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institute.
  
  They had one message: WE ARE SKEPTICAL
  
  These scientists published a two page advertisement in 'The Weekly Standard Magazine, October 1, 2001 titled " A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism".
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know you don't the know the difference between teaching and indoctrinating.
  
  Goobledegook. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just making up or repeating lies.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You poor baboon of an uninformed man even wikipedia has that documentation:
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scientif … _Darwinism
  
  so repent from calling me a liar.. i will of course accept a formal apology
  
  Your time here is so wasted
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "The statement in the document is described as artfully phrased to represent a diverse range of opinions, set in a context which gives it a misleading spin to confuse the public. The listed affiliations and areas of expertise of the signatories have also been criticized.
  
  By promoting a perception that evolution is the subject of wide controversy and debate within the scientific community, whereas in fact evolution is overwhelmingly supported by science, the list is used to lend support to other Discovery Institute campaigns promoting intelligent design..."
  
  Thanks for the link, very informative. It shows an apology would be inappropriate.
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  r-o-yposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think the question you asked is one that everyone should ask themselves, no matter what it is that they believe in. Do I believe because this is what I’ve been taught as a child, or is it something I’ve researched and tried and tested and proven to my own satisfaction to be true? The deity that claim to have created me and the universe must be able to tell the end from the beginning, of all the religions that I’ve studied or have been a part of only one have met the challenge. He must be holy, without spot , he must be able he must prove to me that he created me for a purpose and that I am truly loved, the only one have met these conditions in my life is The Lord Jesus Christ!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Honestly? Because I heard from God.
  
  I grew up in a family of free-thinkers (pedantic know-it-alls would be better.) I was no different. I did not believe in God nor was there anything pushing me in that direction. I could probably best be described as a pessimistic nihilist. But I met a girl who challenged me to act as open-minded as I claimed I was. I went to church a few times, then I heard from God.
  
  I've actually tried to stop being Christian a few times, but I just can't forget the experience. I'm still the only one on that side of the family who is a Christian.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was wondering, how did you hear from God? What did you feel He told you?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've thought about my answer to this. I've never actually heard God speak to me in an audible voice. Sometimes I get a feeling like "It's time to pray," or "I took care of this for you." When I was sitting in the church that day, I felt something going on, but I didn't know what it was and didn't realize it until later.
  There have been many times I've felt His presence. My wife is terminally ill and our daughter is severely autistic, and He has answered prayer for us many, many times.
  If you really want to know Him (assuming you don't already, I hope that you do,) then I would suggest finding some real Christians to talk to. And first and foremost I would urge you to read the Bible and call on God.
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  Heatherlavernposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hiya, I was brought up in a christian family, apart from my parent every one chose their own path of life, i went to church but didn't have a relationship with God. I remembered as a teen i always ran from pastors who tried to get me to go to church, as i myself stopped.There was this pastor from a church next door where i lived at the time that usually as me questions like where would you go if you die today; i was terrified of him and thought he was using death to scare me into going to his church. But i have several encounter with God for my self i can't state each and every one but i remembered this particular time i was poisoned. some one put rat poison in my horlicks got sick after drinking the first lot and thought i should make some more, this time i drank it hot thinking i would feel better and next thing i knew i was dying, for months i didn't eat because i couldn't sometime i heard my mother asking God to heal me . doctor sent me home with my mother as there was nothing he could do, I didn't want to see my mother weep for me, but i was weak couldn't talk and i felt my breath going that night. I reach out to God and i ask him for a healing i couldn't speak so i pray in my spirit, i asked him not to take me, i really was talking to God, the same God i tried to run away from, i told him i will declare his truth, i don't know what happen but i suddenly felt totally different i could talk again the next day and i felt a complete change. The other time it was God that came to me in a dream, and the rest was history. I have being through so much in my life, people wondered how i remained sane but i got this peace, its heavenly. Peace is like the wind whenever you see it moves the leaves on the trees that is how you know there goes the wind but we can see it, it is invisible to the eyes but visible to we who feels the breeze when the wind pass by.
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  mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heather, simply awesome.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yours is an intelligent question. There are folks here that hate that!
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I will not attest to being atheist or religious. I have an idea of what god is ,but it is just that, an idea. Why do I have this idea?
  
  My parents encouraged a belief in God as they saw it, but also instilled curiosity in my seeking. The question you pose is a good one and if it furthers your studies, than you're better for it.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The very fact that I AM. is good enough for me to believe that God is God. take this a step farther, nothing in this world could exist without some kind of a creator.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  False conclusion based on false premises.
  
  You only believe you are here as a result of God because that's what the bible taught you. You don't acknowledge any other alternatives, that's a closed mind.
  
  Many things exist without a creator and can be shown they never had a creator. I understand you deny those facts, but again, that is just the result of a closed mind.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would be interested to know what things exist without a creator and as you put it, "can be shown".
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Every living thing on the planet, of course.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Show me, that's what you said. I never asked "what"
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It has been shown here numerous times that evolution produces all life on the planet.
  
  If you're looking for yet another chance to deny evolution because your holy book says 'majic gone dunnit' then go ahead and preach, be done with it.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God evolves. Evolution is not a barrier to my belief. If "Man" started out as a one celled creature, then, it's name was MAN. I have watched a building evove froms bricks and boards. Always gotta start with the first step, then proceed to the next step. It all sounded really magical to Moses. Geuss that kinda showed in his dictation. Magic did it. Sounds like Stephen Hawking's theory that gravity pulled so hard on nothing...and viola...Here we be. No better, no worse.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, for no apparent reason, other than what believers believe.
  
  Yes, I know. The barriers are elsewhere.
  
  After reading that several times, it's still just gobbledegook.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I really like your posts for the most part. However you are making a claim about evolution that can not be proven nor can it be disproved. The same as the claims that the religious folks are making on this website. There has to be an event somewhere in between those ideas that makes sense.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  he is brainwashed.
  Indoctrinated by a world that Jesus says is not important and that those who are of God should look beyond. With new eyes they shall see wonders. Yet he is here, dismissing God yet spending time worrying about who believes him.
  brainwashed. Some people succumb easily to the conspiracies of governments and agendas of other people on TV. Evolution would have them evolve but they are still swallowing platos lies.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  brainwash mmmm
  
  loving god over your parents or love him more than your parents OR I love Allah more than my parents if you live in the middle east is not a form of brainwashing?
  
  What chance does a kid have, not to get brainwashed. Good thing the child, can divorce their parents legally to have greater freedom and share their love with the whole worlds.
  
  Teach a child how to share the love, don't trap them with conditional love, then use God as a full time baby sitter, is just too cheap.
  
  The reason to love God, is because it works
  To force your way of God on others, is not loving .
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You see Claire, Christians don't care about this world, that's why its gone to hell in a hand-basket these past many centuries. They only live for death and waste their entire lives in dire pursuit of it.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can't see how that's possible. Evolution is a fact while the claims of the religious folk are fantasies, the difference is evidence.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  or perhaps the perception of evidence? What qualifies as acceptable evidence? everybody disagrees. Some say science, some say whatever is tangible, some say a miraculolus event etc. Each person believes in some sort of "evidence" of what they believe and not many agree on the conditions required for it to be evidence. It all ends up seeming rather relative. If we all agreed on what constitutes acceptable evidence it would make life so much easier.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of the reasons why I suggested you take the time to understand the scientific method, so that you begin to grasp those concepts.
  
  There already is agreement.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not from the people I talk to...scientists or no...
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, you are talking with the wrong people.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm talking to the wrong scientists? Geez this is getting frustratingly confusing
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scientif … _Darwinism
  
  Yah soooooo much agreement
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism (or Dissent From Darwinism) is a statement issued in 2001 by the Discovery Institute, a conservative non-profit public policy think tank based in Seattle, Washington, USA, best known for its advocacy of intelligent design.
  
  The claims made in the document have been rejected by the scientific community. Robert T. Pennock says that intelligent design proponents are "manufacturing dissent" in order to explain the absence of scientific debate of their claims..."
  
  Hoisted by your own petard.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not religious and this has nothing to do with the bible or your generalizations. But it's clear that you make claims that you cannot back up. You said many things exist without a creator but there no proof of that either. Stop talking nonsense. You don't even know what you are talking about because none of these things has any proof. Stick to what you know or believe and you'll be better off that way.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know you won't ever take the time to understand the facts of evolution, so be it.
  
  Being brainwashed into religion certainly shows the damage it can do to people, possessing them to deny reality in order to defend their fantasies.
  
  This is the kind of destruction people do to their children.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  there are no facts to evolution.
  There is no evidence that life can be produced from a primordial ooze.
  There is no hard evidence that animals evolved
  There is no hard evidence that physical laws are broken when the miraculous happens
  Just the speculation of a fellow named darwin who was equal to Aristotle and plato in dispensing the double doctrines of science.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know you deny reality and live in a Christian reality in which the physical world is just a bad nightmare for you, no need to remind me.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever thought about posing some of your "non-beliefs" or ideas instead of just putting other peoples' down
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My non-beliefs?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suggest that you put aside your highschool text book and google darwinism debunked and sit back to be amazed, and schooled at the same time.
  Stay away from atheist sites because they are idiots. sorry but its true and find some sites from qualified people who have real degrees and not just a hate on for christianity.
  check out some recent information about the miller experiment and see how the highschool text books still use this misleading experiment that has been proven false.
  Look up haeckels' embryos and discover that his diagrams are faulty how he was claimed to be fraudulent and know that his embryos are not even first stage but middle stage.
  Then research Java man.. the supposed missing link and discover that a skull cap, 3 teeth and a thigh bone do not constitute enough data to faithfully replicate the human being, let alone stick it in as the missing link.
  Your claims to know it all, fall short of knowing anything at all. So do some real research from legitimate sites. You will find that i am not so easily eschewed.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I find that you do nothing else but spread lies. None of what you say here is true at all after doing research from legitimate sites. You know that, too.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you forgot to read my message. I'm not religious. I guess all that is left for you is to throw out these generalizations instead of answering. Typical atheist.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you are religious, by definition.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please my friend stop with this nonsense.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Another example is the Big Bang theory... expanding universe...which point to a definite beginning of the universe. The fact that most scientists now believe that energy, matter, space and time had a beginning is antimaterialistic. You can't invoke time or space or matter or energy or the laws of nature to explain the origin of the universe. This points to the need for a cause that transcends those domains. And theism affirms the existence of such an entity-namely God.
  As Nobel Prize-winner Arno Penzias said about the Big Bang, "The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the first five books of Moses, the Psalms and the Bible as a whole".
  (Malcolm W. Browne, Clues to Universe Origin Expected)
  
  Understand evolution.. you mean be brainwashed by it
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you keep posting lies about science to defend your religion?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What has been proven (sort of) is that evolution can answer the question of where species came from. What has not been proven at all is that evolution can answer the question of how life began. And it's very destructive to teach that it has.
  By the way, as for the sort of, there's still holes in that part as well. Evolutiion may be a "scientific theory," but it's still a theory because the absolute proof has not been found.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Duh.
  
  Evolution has never been taught to answer the question as to how life began.
  
  But, for believers, the bible is all they need for "absolute proof"
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Evolution has never been taught to answer the question as to how life began." Ah, so you've never been to public school! Boy, that explains a lot!
  
  And I'll admit, the same old joke seems not to get boring...
  
  You!
  
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bit of a story change there wasn't it.
  
  figures
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  cprice75posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I grew up in church, and I'm sure that this has impacted the fact that I am a Christian today. However, that being said, as people mature into adults, they have to come to grips with whether they have faith because they were brought up in said faith or because it is an accurate representation of reality (i.e. true).
  
  In looking at Christianity from an historic viewpoint, it is very difficult to explain the spread of Christianity without people wholeheartedly witnessing to the resurrection of Jesus. There was no governmental incentive that told them that they must believe in the resurrection. On the contrary, they held to the resurrection of Christ in spite of various officials threatening their lives. Many early Christians (and many contemporary Christians, for that matter) died for testifying that Christ resurrected. People generally don't die for something that they know is wrong. The apostles who wrote the New Testament died violent deaths that they could've avoided by simply denying the resurrection and going with the flow. This is something that at the least should get people to think, in my opinion.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can you explain the spread of Islam? Can you explain the spread of Fascism ? Can you explain the spread of Communism? Can you explain the spread of the American Revolution? Can you explain Occupy Wall Street?
  
  Check history it was and is an oppressive government that caused all of these movements. Christianity is no different than other movements that have taken place and grown into the excepted beliefs of a modern society.
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  cprice75posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fascism, at least in the German sense, was more of a reaction against the somewhat democratic Weimar Republic. The Nazis found democracy weak, rather than strong. The government cracked down after an attempted coup. Occupy Wall Street seems to be more a reaction against obscene corporate profit and CEO pay. Although they seem to be a bit disjointed in some of their aims (i.e., no completely unified message), they seem to want more government intervention against the erosion of the middle class's place in society, not less. From my understanding, the Arabians treated Muhammad badly, but after its consolidation in Arabia, Islam spread through conquest (although the Muslims were often considered liberators when they arrived). In regard to most Communist movements, I'm with you on those.
  
  My main point was that people don't die for something they believe to be false. If these people did not believe they saw Jesus, they wouldn't have gone to their deaths. People have believed in fascism and other ideologies, and they have died, but the fact is they died for something they believed to be true. Early Christians believed they actually saw Jesus resurrected, so they behaved accordingly. If they had known for a fact that this was false, they would not have spread the message under persecution.
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  Druid1952posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Persecution no doubt binds people together. But it can happen in all these areas of control, finical, political, and religious. Under persecution the groups normally stay smaller. It was not until Constantine made Christianity a state religion that it truly mushroomed out.
  
  People die for stupid reasons they die for God, Country and Moms apple pie in the USA. Just because they gave their lives for what they believe in does not make their belief correct.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You miss the point... the apostles died because they saw jesus.. not because their country asked them too. They SAW jesus in resurrected form after he died. That is convincing stuff, which is why Jesus came in the flesh, was buried and rose again. Its a brilliant plan.
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  OutWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I personally am not religious but I did have a spiritual experience (awakening) many years ago and have never stopped believing that God is a real living being who created and interacts with us. Before that I was agnostic. I thank God and love Him for coming into my life. I have seen the Light! And am glad for that.
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  LewSethicsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I learned religion until I was 11 and get confirmed in my church, but I didn't get passionate about ideas until junior high school, where we were allowed to borrow any book we wanted to read. The library became my church.
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  tonka21posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in Jesus Christ & everything He stands for, my reason for believing is because He touched me, I was not a believer at first, I had given up on God but I started researching the Bible only to prove a friend wrong, he had just become a christian & was sprouting all this stuff, & since i was brought up catholic I thought he was full of it & that I knew more, anyway like I said I read, listened & went to church but still thought it was b.s., then one day as I was reading the bible something happened, suddenlly Christ became real, a true person who walked the earth, I was overcome with an overwhelming feeling of love, nothing like I have ever felt, so much so I felt like my body was physically shaking & trembleling , I was alone so I don't know if my body was actually doing that or it just felt that way but it was the best experince of my life & I have been a believer since, if people would only take the time they would find God, its the most important decision of your life why not at least see for yourself.
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  cobrienposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was raised to believe in God and never questioned it until adulthood. I really don't see any other way such a complex world and existence could have been created. When I act like the Christian God wants me to be, my life runs much more smoothly. When I stray, things fall apart. It's happened too many times for any other explanation.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in the Creator God very naturally; like I believe in everything.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I started a similar thread, AshtonFirefly. It is impossible for it to not become a debate. LoL. Accept this, and you'll learn even more if you are truly interested in psychology and religion, as I am also. What I observe in these forums continues to teach me many things about people and their religious, or non-religious beliefs.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol. well I had to try I don't mind watching people debate. I do enjoy an learn. But we already had other forums doing that.
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  ThoughtPoliceposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All you have to do to find god is start practicing to be psychic. It's a lot easier than you think.
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  sunkentreasureposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THE GREATNESS OF JESUS By BERNARD LEVINE
  
  The most influential life
  
  ever to have lived on this earth
  
  The greatest love this world has known
  
  The central fulfilment
  
  of hundreds of Bible prophecies
  
  The leading key figure of humanity
  
  Jesus is unique
  
  He walked on water
  
  He raised the dead
  
  He opened blind eyes
  
  He brought us eternal life
  
  Only through His blood
  
  can we be pardoned
  
  Only through His name
  
  can we receive God's power
  
  Only through His life
  
  can we find victory
  
  Lord Jesus
  
  We love and worship you.
  
  © Bernard Levine
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  sunkentreasureposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I SEE GOD By BERNARD LEVINE
  
  I see God
  
  In the patterns on butterfly wings
  
  Lighting the lamps in the skies
  
  Kissing a new-born child ‘I love you'
  
  Anointing a doctor's hands.
  
  I see God
  
  Smiling as we praise and worship Him
  
  Sending us daily miracles and blessings
  
  Preparing a special place for us in paradise.
  
  Working His wonders for us to behold all over!
  
  © Bernard Levine
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  sunkentreasureposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THE BEAUTY OF GOD’S LOVE By BERNARD LEVINE
  
  God is amazing
  
  He chooses every baby's DNA and blood type
  
  He puts every star in place to float in the sky
  
  He creates every fingerprint with a rare design
  
  He makes an egg to burst open with life.
  
  God is great
  
  He selects all the love-songs for every bird to sing
  
  He makes broken bones mend
  
  He gives every flower its specific perfume
  
  He cares for seeds and they turn to fruit.
  
  God is awesome
  
  He tells the seasons when to change
  
  He gives us air so we can breathe
  
  He feeds multitudes of living organisms on our planet
  
  He waters fields of green carpets with morning dew.
  
  Every leaf is a marvel of God's genius
  
  Every baby is filled with God's love
  
  There is nothing in this world more precious
  
  than the beautiful kindness of God.
  
  © Bernard Levine
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see you're wasting space. Good to know you cannot post anything original.
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  rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To be honest it was magic mushrooms that finally made me start beleiving in jesus / god
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Figures as much.
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pennyofheavenposted 12 years ago
Experience mainly. Exploring the different religions only served to confirm most of my experiences in one way shape or form.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Same here pennyofheaven.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course they will. If you permit it reading the book of enoch will teach you the angelogy of the persians and the wrong interpretation of genesis 6.
  If you read about Darwins stupid theory of common ancestry you will probably end up believing we originated from apes.
  If you read buddhism you will exclude all other religions that embrace a God like deity
  If you read astrology you will find out you are a taurus
  If you get into palmistry you will find it can predict future events
  but whatever you read the bible should be regarded as the source of truth.
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Druid1952posted 12 years ago
Even though I do not follow any organized religion today I did at one time. My reason for belonging to it was simple.I was supposedly saved and became interested in learning more about the Creator. In my 40 years of study I have distanced myself from all religious beliefs and follow what I see to be truth. I still believe that we are created but it is a much more complex than the creation story of the Christian Bible.
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  lone77starposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Much more complex? I couldn't agree more.
  
  But perhaps it is more complex than your "interpretation" of the Bible.
  
  The hidden wisdom in the Bible is far more complex than your interpretation and the interpretation of nearly everyone else on the planet.
  
  I have found a little bit of that wisdom, but need help finding so much more. Any takers?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So long as it is in context
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you study other books besides the bible?
  Perhaps some pseudepigrapha
  or spend time on atheist sites? lol atheist sites.
  other religions?
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Personal experience, and not w/o witnesses. The faith of my family, mother, father, etc. seemed to be too much of a Santa Claus story. I have landed far from their beliefs. My path has taken me away from the concepts of "White" christianity, which I see as a necessary step towards our destination, but one whose time is short. The period between the crucifixion and now was meant to pass away. Jesus was as human as we, and we are as divine as Jesus. Take that any way you like. Peace, and may your search for knowledge be a revelation to you.
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A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years ago
It was definitely experiences for me. Experiences that cannot be explained away by any educated person. Just as there are those whom I will never convince that there is a God; So it is that I cannot be convinced that there is not a God.
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Same here.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I must add it was believing in what I did not see that I believe brought those experiences on.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Couldn't agree more.
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AshtonFireflyposted 12 years ago
Great responses, everyone...
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  mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ashton, thank you for the forum.
  
  I hope you read heatherlaverns post above. This is the type of things that will happen if we would just from our heart accept the fact there is this Higher Power. Some call him God, others call him other names, but, its the Spirit and that same spirit, is. well, like our 6th sense. If we embrace it, it will see us through tough times, and so so much more.
  
  If I am out of line here I apologize, but I would like to say thank you to those that have respected this forum. There are some beautiful experiences that have been shared here.
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olodarkwriterposted 12 years ago
I was raised in a Christian family, going to church, but didn't really learn that much about Christianity until I was an adult. I have been immersed completely in fundamentalism, and have gone through doubt and questioning. At 55 I am not a church member. But I have concluded through observation, study and contemplation of the issues that I completely believe in the Gospel of Christ. It makes perfect sense to me. True Christianity is unique among the religions of the world in that salvation is offered as a free gift as opposed to being completely or partly earned by the recipient (and don't go off on Zoroastrianism etc please). That is what I love about it. And I am not a superstitious, ignorant person that some seem to think one must be to believe in the Bible. I am well educated, was a teacher until recently, read the newspaper every day.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, brother (or sister!)
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Kim Cantrellposted 12 years ago
I'm with Druid on this subject, in that I believe in a Higher Power but not necessarily as it was taught to me in the church.

As for why? Well, experience for the most. But what do I have to lose by being wrong?
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Pcunixposted 12 years ago
My parents took us to church. As soon as I was old enough to understand that the preacher was serious, I told them I would not go any more and we all stopped then. I have spent the rest of my life wondering why people are so foolish.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed stopping was pretty foolish
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prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago
nice question.

And if you were raised alone in the jungle without socialization like Tarzan, will you have a notion of a deity?? Perhaps in Tarzan case he vows down to the nature, as it provides his basic needs.
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  mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  prettydarkhorse, that is in essence what this "God" we speak of. Our sustainer.
  
  If I only had religion and christianity to choose from, I would be doomed.
  
  The Bible, is a book, written and rewritten many times and to suit many religions, BUT in it lies a central theme, for a good lifestyle to follow, AND some great stories. One of which applies to todays world so precise. Jesus went into the synagogue and saw the people making a market place out of the building that was meant as a house of worship. I can't help to think WHAT would he do today? A lot of churches are for show, and in my opinion, well, shortly put, a social club.
  
  A heart, symbol of love, NO weapon formed can destroy a heart. That is a promise. Many are scared to follow their heart in fear their friends or family will "think bad" of them.
  
  I issue any non believer to for a month, lay the negative ideas in their head aside and listen to and follow their hearts, ...I am almost positive they would see a miracle or two.
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blake4dposted 12 years ago
My search for meaning in life led me down certain paths, those led me to understand that I believe in many things that may not be reality. My belief is based on faith that I love human beings and that love is the root of my faith. I do not believe in any God or religion I have had the chance to experience, yet I believe that something is the power and source of my belief.

The biggest influence on my beliefs is my direct contact with unusual forces that are part of nature. I have been confronted by natural creatures in the wild that did not react like I expected, not like an insect or an animal should by human standards.

I believe that animals have no need for faith in a God, because they are instinctual in their connection to the Earth. The rest is just conjecture.

Nature is responsible for my belief in any kind of supernatural or ultranatural force that is part of this universe. Like a thundering perfect mind...
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One day there was a gene that said to itself, "Lets make a big pointy thing where our nose should be, that would be cool". So it called a conference of other nearby cells and they all agreed that would be cool and so squinting their little gene eyes they put forth their cosmic brain power and formed (because they were very smart and determined) the long pointy protuberance in the picture above.
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mel22posted 12 years ago
I think most people equate religeon with an Ethos or set of Ethics and in the end end up getting bashed because the religeons try to espouse ideas of the religeon to to the younger generation of their particular church by using figures such as a messiah or great teacher to present the idea from an earlier time. In essence though they are using stories to more easily present the ideas to the younger people and teach them a moral base for later and not so much the specific mysticism of the story. I think many of the adults get caught up in the exactness of the story told and forget the message or moral trying to be taught.
Philosophy in a broad sense not attached to religeon seems to cover what ethics we are are trying to achieve and which ones matter most or not. In the end though, many philosophers / philosophies of modern time tend steer away from setting up and discussing an ethical base and instead focus on trying to equate whether any moral has any ethical value and seem try to degrade every ethos until there is none.This is the opposite of what philosophy is supposed to do. It is supposed to be to try to develop an Ethos and not break them down completely.
It's not publically viable to teach a specific religeon in school , but there is always a general ethics class. The problem is is that it is termed under the broad umbrella of Philosophy rather than a specific Ethics class and gives the stigma that no ethos is whats trying to be aceived since it relies heavily on debating each other whether stating from an ethical base or not. In other words , there are too many philosophers debating the others ethos with none of their own. It is supposed to Ethos of one vs. Ethos of an another rather than Ethos vs. non-Ethos because the nonEthos is standing on no argument of his own and makes it easier to denegrate the other when their is no no Ethos to defend on their own side. This is the approach most take nowadays and so Philosophy has been turned bunk. Like playing football with only one Goal post.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  An intelligent response. I like those.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did not realize on next page.
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Claire Evansposted 12 years ago
Most people are raised to believe in the religion they are in. The conversions are really interesting, though. What makes an atheist suddenly think that Jesus is the son of God? What proof do they say they have?
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getitriteposted 12 years ago
It appears that all believers were brainwashed as children...and these responses truly indicate that.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  but that would be to assume that all who are Christians, were raised Christian as children...I have known many who were not...
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but the premise of a deity or creator was established in childhood.
  
  Even people who switch to other beliefs are still, usually, operating under the premise that there is a superman, beyond themselves.
  
  My brother has changed beliefs at least five times in his lifetime, but he always operates under the premise that there is a deity or creator that is more powerful than him...and that this deity requires WORSHIP.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh, okay, I see your point. Hmm...never thought of it that way...
  What about people who grow up with atheistic parents and relatives? Do you still feel they grew up with that premise of a deity?
  I wonder if maybe even the simple fact of growing up with authorities in our lives (parents, teachers, etc.) may contribute to the idea of a "god-like" authoritative entity?
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only five times?
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  lone77starposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And yet there are those who had no such "superman" beliefs as a child and lived rough-and-tumble secular lives until late in life... only to find "religion" or spirituality after a full life of "reasonableness."
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  Are you saying that ALL people who are christians were introduced to it during childhood?
  
  We can ALL see the ignorance and willful misinformation in your statement.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, many other children have been introduced to other religions. Did you know there were other religions on the planet?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oooo, almost a good one!
  
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Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years ago
What is Your Reason?

I'm going to answer your question with a question of my own. (as it turned out a few questions)

When you fall in love with someone... How do you know you have fallen in love with them? Is there empirical evidence that suddenly comes into existence? Is there some testable change to reality that proves to an objective observer that you are truly in love?

~or~

Do you just feel it, and know it is true based on your feelings, instincts and the emotional avalanche that the experience brings with it?

Does humanities scientific research about the chemical changes in your brain somehow make the love you feel become just chemical reactions or a form of delusion? After all, without the brain's chemicals you won't feel 'love'. Does your inability to empirically prove your love to an outside objective observer make the emotional, intuitive 'proof' you feel into simple silliness, brainwashing, or fallacy?

Does your inability to show physical concrete evidence demonstrating that you're in love mean that 'love' does not exist?

I have scientifically proven the existence of God. The scientific proof of God's existence is a pale thing when compared to the emotional, intuitive and 'feeling' proof of God's existence. In my experience, interactions with God are very much like the emotional interactions involved with love.

These are some of the reasons why I Believe in God.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm...interesting view...
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Makes sense to me.
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  mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel G Roberts, that is so beautiful.
  
  I can't help to reply to so many of these responses, but, folks, as I read them I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, and it is beautiful.
  
  I sat down here this morning, dreading going to work, but now, I'm ready to face the day.
  
  I must say, that, what ever label you put on the Spirit, it does most definitely deserve to be embraced, adored, thanked, and yes, worshiped.
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Reality Bytesposted 12 years ago
When I discovered science, mainly physics (Newton) and psychology (Carl Jung) backed up certain belief systems it became the path I chose to tread. My path has been a long and winding journey and I take it one step at a time.

Earth
Air
Fire
Water
Spirit (energy)
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  NIce.. I've always been fascinated with physics and psychology. How did those back up your belief systems? You mentioned Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit--are those cornerstones of your belief system? Sorry I ask alot of questions; I just really like to learn about what other people believe in...
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  Reality Bytesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Archetypes covered the god/goddess' beliefs. (Carl Jung)
  
  Physics led me to Karma. (actions/reactions)
  
  The Elements are the base of all!
  
  I am a Pagan, my beliefs are "change your mind, change the world"
  
  My beliefs are my own. I am a sovereign individual. I will not consent to having labels placed upon me. I use the word Pagan as an adjective. It is a description. To me it means that there are no beliefs that are not worth the time and effort to attempt to comprehend. When there is a consistency found throughout the spectrum of beliefs. Those can probably be determined to be truth. ( I am not speaking of Mythology)
  
  Of course it is a lot more complicated then that. I am saving the rest for article content/book when my path leads me there. Right now I am trying to comprehend the left hand path and how it is changing our world so dramatically and so quickly.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can't wait.
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  mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Realty, I too can't wait.
  
  5 years ago I, in my heart, would have knocked your head off if you were to have called me a pagan. I really honestly thought it was a term used for devil worshipers.
  
  The more I study, and I study without books, because I want to form my own opinion, but anyway, the more I study, the more I see I too am more pagan than I as of yet am comfortable with, but I KNOW it is real and I can feel the love.
  
  My advice, to anyone who is looking for a spiritual life,is to please just follow their hearts.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thats probably why reality bites
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brotheryochananposted 12 years ago
Well i had all the same stupid question atheists and non believers have here. I just was more open minded and not so full of myself to believe that only what I thought was right and they (christians) were stupid.

Now I am so very happy to report that athiests are the stupid ones.
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skipper112posted 12 years ago
Haveing been brought in the Catholic Faith, after I joined the Army, and had trouble with 'you shall not kill' a Church of England padre told me it was 'you shall not murder' I changed my religion, I walked away from the Catholic Faith. No big deal, right, both are Christian, yes both are Christian but verry different.
I sort of lapsed from Religion, and just belived in Jusus Christ, as my personal savior, but I found out over the years to me just beliving in Jusus Christ was not enough, there was always something missing. There was no followship with like minded people, it was just a personal belief.
In my early 60's I had a medical drama in my life, I was going to have to undergo a opperation, I was in a lot of pain, in body and soul.
I found my self wanting to comit sucide, because of the drug I was on, I went to a busy road near my house, I was going to through my self under the wheels of a large truck. As I was about to do it I saw a cross on a Catholic Church near my house, I stopped then walked to the Church. Now this church cannot be seen from were I was, I walked home in conflict.
The next day I went to another Catholic Church, told the priest I was going to have surgery and was so scared in mind and body, the priest took me into his Church and gave me 'the blessing of the sick' or the 'last rites' something happened in that church that day the world was lifted off my sholders, I felt at peace with everything as well as peace with Jusus.
I returned to the Catholic Religion, that was 9 years ago, the Catholic Faith may not be right for everybody but it is right for me.

That is why I returned to the Catholic Faith.
God bless,
Wazza
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So the thou shalt not kill dilemma resolved itself within you?
  
  I wonder about those who were Christian and had no choice to join the army? Drafting is it? What inner conflict would one have to resolve being a Christian?
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  skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It never really resolved itself, except I will say this, I will never kill another person unless they want to kill me, then it becomes self defense.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah ok.
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  skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I must say I was on legal drugs'
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Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years ago
@Penny

You do realize that Catholics are Christians... right?

The original Christians are the Catholics, the prodestants are 'protester Catholics'. (just making sure)
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes hehe. Why you ask?
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  skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  yes Catholics are the original Christians, of all the other christian religions 95% were break away's from the Catholic Faith.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What 5% didn't break away from the only christian church in existence for the first 1500 years after the death of Christ?
  
  (Not doubting you, just curious)
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I was to hazard a guess I'd say that a lot of these happy clappy mega churches or God TV types might claim they were new interpretations of the bible with no roots in Catholocism or the Protestants.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible is the written doctrine of The Original Christian church, you can't use the founding document of an organization and then say you don't come from(aren't influenced by) that organization.
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lone77starposted 12 years ago
@AshtonFirefly, I wrote a reply to your wonderful forum question, but HubPages timed out in the middle of my session.

Rather than write it again, I offer my religious hubs. If you don't want to mosy on over there, I'll give you a synopsis: dreams of faith and doubt, ontological ponderings as a child, miracles, memories of past lives and out-of-body wanderings with the same clarity I have with my Homo sapiens eyeballs.

Pretty cool stuff.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol alrighty, I'll read your hubs...the story of your experience sounds very interesting
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, pure fantasies and magical tales with not a single sign of truth in them.
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Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago
For most of my life I have taken it for granted that God was real. I spent 25 years in the Church being spoonfed and having those beliefs continually reinforced; to question the spoon feeding was to be labelled "not a proper Christian". I gained security but lost freedom of thought and freedom to be me; constantly being told I was a sinner that could never measure up in my own strength.

I left Church 3 years ago and started to research every spoonfed idea to see if it stacked up against scripture. I see now that 75% of it didn't.

But now I'm looking for the reality of God in my life and I'm coming up empty handed. I cannot think of anything tangible, any single experience in the last 10 years that says God is real and interested in me as an individual. Sure many can point at a bible verse but as one must first believe that it is the word of God Which is in itself a statement of faith, a verse of scripture proves nothing.

My colleagues do not believe and their quality of life is no worse. My life has a number of difficult situations that continue to sap life's joy. But believing or not believing, would there be any tangible difference?
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting response, and one i can relate to...I understand the feeling of being spoonfed... once you realize you have been and that you want to search out answers for yourself, it can be a freeing (and scary) thing. People don't like you questioning what they say you must absolutely believe in, but it's necessary, I feel. And you're right...I don't think a Bible verse would mean anything to anyone unless they find some sort of personal experience of God in their lives to back it up. I applaud you on searching out your own answers. As for me...still searching...
  Thanks for sharing!
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes we look for the reality of God in all the wrong places. Unlearning what has already been learned is not an easy thing. Yet when we take away intellect and knowledge and the falsities we sometimes cling to, experience might then come to the fore. We might just get deeper insights or glimpses into the nature of God.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  From personal experience, I must say "Yes!" Belief does make a huge difference.
  Maybe because I have the tangible evidence. Many prayers have been answered for me.
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reb4822posted 12 years ago
The same reason the man on the cross believed, untill you jump into the water you know not if it is deep,shallow,hot or cold. Untill you jump the water will remain a mystery.
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reb4822posted 12 years ago
The same reason the man on the cross believed, untill you jump into the water you know not if it is deep,shallow,hot or cold. Untill you jump the water will remain a mystery.
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rLcasaLmeposted 12 years ago
That would actually be the subject of my next hub. I was an Atheist since High School, i guess. I've just published on how i became an Atheist. I recently became a Christian only months back. I'm afraid it'll take time before its publication. I'm struggling to find time for my thoughts to be jotted down.
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Hendrikaposted 12 years ago
I follow my heart and makes the Bible speak to me. I know it is real, as real as creation.
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cprice75posted 12 years ago
Thanks for the discussion/questions. I hope it's not getting to the point of debate as discouraged by the author of the thread. I definitely agree that people die for very stupid reasons at times. However, the important idea is that they believe in what they die for. Masses of people don't die for something they know to be patently false.

Another point that I find quite interesting is the question of why Jesus? There were other "political" leaders in Judea who wanted to throw out Rome. The Romans usually executed them, but there is no religion that says any of these other guys deserve anything other than a footnote in a history book. Another interesting point is that the Jews were generally not terribly keen on spreading their religion to the Gentiles, but they became very interested in spreading their message outside Judea after Christ. Why the sudden change in focus?
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pstraubie48posted 12 years ago
i believe because throughout all of my years i have felt and continue to feel the presence of the Power that is greater than I am that carries me through difficult times.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe, because I saw something totally inexplicable I didn't see it that I might convince others. I saw it that it would convince me.
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AshtonFireflyposted 12 years ago
I'm guessing that asking people to not debate on here was kind of a silly request, considering the nature of the topic...I still hope it doesn't get too bloody. I think all of us need a place where we can just voice our feelings about our beliefs without being attacked or challenged, as well as a place where we can debate about them. Both build us up in some way. My intention was for this thread to be the former... I've enjoyed reading about everyone's story of why they believe. Wish I could sit down and talk to alot of you in person. I think it would make for a pretty awesome conversation
to all who posted and shared, thanks for sharing your thoughts on here and why you believe, regardless of who disagrees or agrees or whatever
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Know much about the science of Terraforming? It basically says that everyway that life could have begun here is also something which it is possible to engineer. Intelligence required.
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Captain Redbeardposted 12 years ago
I feel this thread is asking a believer in Christ for their testimony.

Well I guess I first came to knowledge of Christ and Christian ideology when I was about 15. I started going to a youth group with some friends and by the time I was 19 had learned more about hypocrisy and judgment than 15 years of dealing with alcoholics, drug addicts and homelessness had taught me. The church was no where I wanted to be.

When I was 22 my third child was born 3 months early. She was so small that I could fit my wedding band around her wrist and up to her shoulder. For the first month the doctors had us prepare for her death. Everyday we got the same thing, "She's ok right now but we don't expect it to last. You should think about what you would like to do." She was barley over 2 lbs when she was born.

I remember screaming at God in my car on the way to work 5 days after she was born. It was pretty much, "how dare you.....why her.....there is no love in you....." type mentality. Now what I am about to say next will cause an uproar, from one in particular if he reads I'm sure, never the less, after my ranting on and on I stopped in my anger and sat in the silence for probably about two minutes before I hear a voice, not an audible voice, but a voice in my mind say, "I love her more than you do. If I choose to take her you have to be ok with that and if I allow her to stay with you, you have to be ok with that." Nothing more, nothing less.

But I was filled with a peace afterwards that I can't explain. I didn't pray for her healing or anything else. I honestly don't remember one prayer I said for her while she was in the hospital. I can remember praying for peace for my wife, wisdom to help guide my family through the hardship and things of that nature but never for my daughters health. I was waiting for God to prove his words to me that he loved her more than I did. (the voice I assumed belonged to God) After that prayer of anger and contempt, my daughter began the slow turn around. She grew, began breathing on her own, eating from a bottle, maintaining body heat, she began making her own blood. (she lived off of transfusions for a while) It seemed that every time the doctors would throw something up, within a week or two she would overcome that problem. Her birthday is in 13 days. She will be 6 years old and she is just fine, to look at her you would never know the challenge she had at the beginning of her life save one scar on her arm where there was a tube at one point going straight to her heart.

From that point on I knew that God was a real force and that he was paying attention, not just to me or what I cared about but to those around me. I watched peace beyond understanding at times when others breakdown, triumph! I myself had 4 clots in my lungs at one point in 2008. Big as life, they were huge and one night at home after being released from the hospital I felt a pulling in my chest, my wife rushed me to the ER and after a CT scan we found that all four were gone, completely and totally gone. It's things like this that attracted me to the existence of God and ultimately to Christ.

I believe in Christ because of what he taught and the truth in them. I believe in Christ because I know that I am flawed to a dangerous point. When I lived my life under my own rule, I hated more than I loved, I took care of only me and found that the more I served my desires the more unhappy I was, there was never enough of the world to satisfy me. It wasn't too long after that incident in the car that I can say I truly gave my life away to Christ and committed myself to him first.

There is nothing easy about living a life for God through Christ. I am ridiculed, judged everywhere, expected to know every answer to life’s questions and more often then not find myself repenting for things I have said and done. However I can say that today I love more and don't really know that I hate anyone, I take care of all that I am able to.

This was the cliff noted version, I left a lot of stuff out but this was the catalyst.

That's why I believe. Now, let the ridicule begin!
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There goes that ego... I think she wanted an opinion from any and everyone, which is why she asked.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I'm directing this towards those who embrace a particular religion and am simply interested in how and why they started to believe what they believe...." - AshtonFirefly
  
  What's egotistical about answering a question?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not the fact that you answered it. It's how your answer began.
  
  "I feel this thread is asking a believer in Christ for their testimony." You could have simply said, "I, being a believer in Christ, shall give you my testimony." But what you stated implies that only you or a fellow, "true" Christian's testimony is what's really needed here. (That fantasy inner cry for the Christian god that Christians seem to be convinced is in all people.) The ego part of it a bit of explaining, and I don't presently have the time to elaborate, but I'll be writing a hub on the subject soon enough.
  
  But since this post I have come to the realization that we are all egotistical in some form or fashion, which I will also discuss in said hub.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  well no duh we're all egotistical. We're alive! Chill out, quit reading into stuff. I never said anything about "true believers" If you want to read into the text ask the author about what he was thinking when writing the text.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was actually quite self explanatory. I'm assuming you meant exactly what you said. The implications are there. I gave you an alternative which would not have implied anything at all. Word choice says a lot about what a person really thinks about something.
  
  "I feel this thread is asking a believer in Christ for their testimony." You could have simply said, "I, being a believer in Christ, shall give you my testimony."
  
  Also, the people who tend to (not always, but usually) say "Believer in Christ," instead of the more widely used term "Christian" tend to be the ones who are more strict about what it really means to follow Christ, i.e. a true believer, instead of "Christian," a label that many people use...
  
  Now, it may be the case that I was overly analytical, which I dare say is my curse, however, I'm quite familiar with Christian lingo and word choice...
  
  After reading your hub titles, I find I'm not far from the truth here, though.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ok.....Because you can sum up my beliefs by hub titles right? Good call!
  
  Look, I'm not getting into a debate with you over something so stupid. I'm throwing a term out now that I just recently learned in that you are "Trolling" Looking for an argument, I'm not one to argue. Have fun judging people by their hub titles. Peace.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse me, any and everyone that believes in a deity/God.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for sharing, Captain Redbeard... Yours is a very interesting story. Everyone gets ridiculed...that's unfortuneate... but I'd be the last person in the world to do so..whether you be atheist, believer, mormon, muslim, buddhist, whatever.
  @AThousandWords, yes I did want an opinion from any and everyone, but this fell in that category too...I realize my words could be taken in a lot of different ways... so it's all good
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ii3rittlesposted 12 years ago
I use to have a "religion". As I grew more in my spirituality, I lost that. Religion is a new name for Paganism. If you study every history of every religion that is around today, you'll find it once had a Pagan origin.

I believe in and love God. God being the one who created us as well as every living thing on it, well, aside from genetically altered creatures or plants, which man messed with.

I believe a man walked this earth by the name of Jesus Christ to show us all how God wanted us to live. I follow his teachings the best that I can.

This, in many eyes, would classify me as a "Christan". I don't need a set name to state my beliefs. The way that many Christians think and act actually goes against the true definition of being a Christian which is why I seldom claim to be one.

From my understanding, God is love, and love is God. That is how God is all seeing, all knowing, and EVERYWHERE. He is in each and every one of us, weather we like it or believe it, or not. Jesus taught us to live life by LOVE and not FEAR. Fear being a lack of faith. Fear also being sin. To sin is to fear and to fear is to sin.

Love and fear are our only to emotions. Anything else stems from those two emotions. Once you understand that, Life makes more sense. If a person lives by fear, they are not living how God wanted them to. Most "Religions" live by fear. That's at least my understanding.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A couple of common definitions for you to ponder...
  
  Pagan: A person who follows a polytheistic religion... a person who does not acknowledge your god.
  
  Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.
  
  Hope that helps.
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nathanatoddposted 12 years ago
Chistianity has never had a pagan origin! This fake "Christianity" that most of America practices did, but not the Christianity of the Bible. We have twisted Christianity into this little religion that says, you can pray a prayer and then use Christianity as fire insurance or a get out of Hell free card! Christianity IS NOT A GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD! People say God loves us and so we can live our lives how we want, because I prayed a prayer at one time, WRONG! Christianity should change your life! The Bible says you get righteousness through faith, but it is accompined by works, if not your faith is worthless! For instance the Bible says in James "If any man considers himself religious and does not keep a tight reign on his tongue his religion is worthless" The relgion he is speaking of is Christianity, not this thing that we have twisted it to become!
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is the result of many ideas. 1 Horus the son of Rah was sent to earth to deliver men from darkness. 2 Genesis was nothing more than an adaptation of an earlier African text. 3 The only reason Christianity is not considered a pagan religion is because it was made a single religion, however the trinity is just another form of paganism.
  
  Catholicism is pagan to the degree that the saints and the trinity are all worshiped equally. The mesianic jews (Christians) are no more a singular worshipping body than any other religion. Christians deny this because they were told that it is not pagan, mainly by people to uneducated to read about the religion they so claim to care so much for.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What is your definition of paganism?
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religion developed from spoken traditions, thousands of years prior to any religion we know of today. Many of those beliefs are lost because so called "civilized" people killed them off so that things could be done the way the emperor wants them done. Look at it this way, "One man's God became another man's evil". I don't quite remember who said that to me, but I have kept that in mind. I think speaking is an art form and we should talk about whatever, as long as we ourselve's at the time.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is such a thing as being too educated.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and no.
  
  Yes, because with more knowledge, leaves the misconceptions and such that you held onto as truth, as well you're blissful ignorance that keeps you happy. I miss that happiness. Life was certainly less complicated.
  
  No, because, one must always continue to learn, in order for such misconceptions to be revealed as such, and for the nature of how things actually are to reveal itself to you as knowledge builds upon more knowledge, lies become truth and vice versa, and your world gets a little bit bigger. This is simply progress.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Though there is truth in what you say; I would like for you to think about this. There was a man I knew that did not have anything past a 6th grade education. Yet some of the ideas he came up with and put to use were near someone with a college degree. Education is a good thing; but it can make you ignore common sense. Education relied upon holy - can make you ignorant.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I think it might be better to say that it's how you apply the knowledge that will determine whether or not you have "common sense." Clearly if someone tells me some "thing," I now know that "thing." If I go shouting about it off the rooftops without doing any further research or pondering it and its plausibility for a moment, yeah, that would be a bad idea.
  
  Whether or not I believe said thing to be true may depend on some other things that I have learned previously, and if they work together, then I may take it as truth until something else proves it to be otherwise, or maybe this new "thing" seems too far-fetched. What further research has there been on this "thing?"
  
  If you believe anything just because someone tells it to you, then you are setting yourself up. That goes for science and religion. If something is just completely out there, you shouldn't be forced to believe it, and you shouldn't simply accept it, whatever it is. Only accept that it is a possibility until you've done further research that makes you feel secure enough to consider it truth, or enough to say, "eh, I think not." You still know it, but don't necessarily believe it, which is part of being educated.
  
  I do agree that education relied upon wholly, without any real thought, research, pondering, etc., can make one ignorant, as well. But a lack of education is the definition of ignorance. Education is not limited to what you learn in a school or University, either. The world is a classroom, I dare say.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But to gain more understanding we search. If you search, persistantly, and ask - you will see the truth. But first you must have faith. Because without faith it is impossible to please God.
  So if you knew what I knew - you would believe. You can know what I know, but you must ask, seek and knock with heart.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I "knew" what you know. Believe me. It just took a lot for to not believe it anymore. I used to be a Christian. And not just some Sunday church go-er. Full on, worshipper, changed my entire life, eager to deny myself and be "close" to God, was a youth leader in my ministry, felt as though I and God had a connection and I talked to Him often, in and out of my "prayer closet."
  
  I believed I was living my life trying to listen to the "unctions" of the "Holy Spirit" and would beat myself up when I "quenched" "Him." Believed every word of the Bible to be truth and inerrant, even with the paradoxes. Prayed every day. Only listened to Christian music. Prayed "evil" thoughts out of m head. It goes on and on, dude. I was a Christian. All the way. "Sold out" as they say. I knew exactly what you "know." But I see completely different now. One day I'll write a hub about what happened. But I did the whole seek and knock thing. And I "found" God... I am not talking from inexperience in any of these forums I comment on...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But apparently you didn't really know Jesus.
  
  Jargon ain't the real thing, as you well know.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is your personal opinion. You, however, have no idea. I simply used jargon because it's simpler than having to give lengthy explanations and you know exactly what I meant by it, did you not?
  
  I said the same thing to other people when I had discussions on the Christian side saying the same thing, so it is no surprise to me that it would be brought back into my direction. If you want to think I didn't "know" god that's fine.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha, you know, to an extent, with my current worldview, I don't believe I actually knew Jesus, either. But it sure felt like I did and on the course I was going, I'm sure I would've died for him. Certainly had made up my mind to live for him.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I say it because I've tried to stop being Christian, but knowing God has made it impossible.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It sounds as if you were going by a set of rules. That never works out. It was that type of mentality that drove me away from church when I was a child. With that type of thinking I never thought I had a chance.
  Our God is patient beyound our understanding. Also loving, forgiving, full of grace and mercy.
  You cannot pray anything out of your mind. It is a humble dependance upon Jesus to do the work. Just because it was not happening instantly, the way most of us would like for it to happen, does not mean He was not working on you.
  We must BEND our will to His since we are so willful. I am only making a judgment on what you have written. This by no means gives me the proper insight, but it seems to me that you really do not know - what I know.
  I am asking you, as if Jesus were pleading with you to please review and renew.
  I have been held over the pit. I was at deaths' door. He saved me from destruction. Not because I said, "You are a great God!" I simply said, "I don't want to die!" He has been merciful even to someone as selfish as me. It wasn't what I said that saved me. It was His patience and love that decided to give me a second chance.
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  tonka21posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  catholics don't worship Trinity & saints the same, they honor the saints, as they do Mary, Moses, Abraham, etc, the Trinity is held & worshiped in the highest esteem, reserved for God only. u make statements you know nothing about
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  May I ask in what way they give them honor?
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Muldaniaposted 12 years ago
A person's religion depends very much on where and when they were born. If born in Europe or the US, then Christianity is more likely to be your religion. If born in the Islamic world, then Allah will be the god of choice. If born in ancient Rome, then Saturn or Jupiter would have been the real gods, or if born in ancient Denmark, then Thor would have reality. Culture is therefore the main reason why people believe in the gods they do.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  very true
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . not necessarily - see my answer below.
  
  I would be interested to see percentages of how many raised in Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, and Christian homes and cultures who actually and genuinely adopt their home and culture's religion, then as adults take on a faith that is not the religious tradition of their home and culture. There are certainly a great multitude of Christians who were raised in Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, etc, homes and cultures . . . and a great many, like myself, not raised in Christian homes who as adults become Christians.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes that is right...I guess I felt that most times it tends to be the case...not all times. but I understand your point
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . and I agree with your point - I think very often, perhaps most of the time, folks just acquiesce to the flow of what they find themselves in. I suppose I'm thinking, at least as far as Christianity goes, merely acquiescing is not at all the same as actually participating and practicing . . . someone who identifies themselves as a 'Christian' merely because they were born in 20th century N.America and are not a Muslim or a Jew, etc, is not really a Christian at all.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  true..
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MickeySrposted 12 years ago
I was not raised in a religious home. we never went to church, prayed, or even spoke about God. No one was hostile to the idea of God, just indifferent - it simply was not anything ever given any attention in my mother's house. Looking back, I think it always seemed to me most reasonable that there was something before and beyond the material world I existed in . . . the idea of some manner of eternal material or spontaneous something out of nothing struck me as ludicrous. I had no thought-out, and certainly no formal, concept of 'god' in my head, but I think it always seemed to me that some form of God, an omnipotent, eternal, infinite spirit being, struck me as the only viable reality.

In my mid teens I was very cerebral, I began reading a lot of esoteric poetry and metaphysics and at some point I began to peruse the Dhammapada, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Apocrypha, and the Bible, etc. I was reading these books like I might read Jules Verne or a Green Lantern comic, etc - I was not troubled or even looking for truth, but eventually my reading was very specifically dealing with spiritual ideas regarding God and man.

Almost from the beginning the Bible struck me as not like the other texts, there was something genuinely otherworldly about it, yet, while appreciating the the uniqueness and profundity of it, I knew I wasn't really getting it - I could follow any portion, the statements I read made sense, but my understanding, especially to grasp the underlying/overarching point and purpose of what was being presented, was hindered.

Eventually I was no longer reading to entertain myself, but began to seriously seek an understanding of what was true, and eventually I wondered away from all the other material I had been reading and was reading only the Bible. Still becoming more and more convinced of the uniqueness and profundity of it's message, but missing the real meaning. On one very specific reading I came upon a portion of Scripture asserting that, as the eternal God is the true author of the book and as we are mortal men, the only way to actually understand the truth being presented is if God Himself opens our eyes to understand and softens our heart to believe.

I stopped reading and simply said "God, if there is something in this book that you want me to know You're going to have to show me what it is because I'm not getting it". That was the marked, dramatic, life-changing turning point for me. As I continued to read not only did what I was reading make perfect sense to me, both in the construction of the words and sentences (which I always 'got') but suddenly, instantly, the point and purpose and consequence and beauty, etc, of what I was reading became astoundingly clear. I marveled how all that I had been reading for months without real understanding came flooding back to me every part and bit fitting together in astounding symmetry and meaningfulness.

What I saw that day is that Jesus of Nazareth, who was killed and buried 2,000 years ago, is alive and He is the only mediator between God and man and that His truth is revealed to us in His word, the Bible.

The Bible was never the same to me, it is not as other texts, it is of divine origin and presents eternal truth. I read nothing but the Bible for about a year, then began to read the history of the church, then a couple years later began to read theology - not until several years after my conversion, and several years of private study, did I begin to look for a local congregation of Christians to fellowship with.

I am now 57 years old and I still wonder at the glorious otherworldliness of Scripture, I still marvel when I read the Bible ... my confidence has not wavered but only increased as I continued to research and investigate and study. The turning point in my life was God's own Spirit revealing His truth to me in His word - and that is still the core of my faith and relationship with God.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for sharing very cool story
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . it's my favorite story (along with meeting and falling hard for my high school sweetheart now wife of nearly 40 years).
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  aww I bet that one is good too I'd love to hear it sometime
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's become one of my hubs - it's called "The Most Married Man In America". I'd love to hear what you think of it.
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  ban me1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think thats a really nice story too. I hope that doesnt mean I'm camp......
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . you want to suspect yourself of camp - you should read my story of meeting my wife and our life together . . . you'll weep like a little girl it's so ludicrously sweet.
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  ban me1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I am a bit of a girl when it comes to relationships. You can ask the girl I fell in love with 11 years ago. Im still crazy about her.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  aww
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  ban me1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  supp Ashton I'm Jesus was a hippy, I got banned earlier for calling someone a "joke" so i created another account.
  
  Damn it my secret of being a giant wuss is out now
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol I already knew that I've been following the thread the entire time.
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  ban me2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Uh oh, Im all embarrased now (yes I got banned AGAIN).
  
  I tried learning guitar to impress her and I got a sprained wrist its not fair so I decided to go back to the piano.
  
  Can you tell me if you go on youtube and search "vika bohemian rhapsody" is that impressive? Im trying to learn it and its really hard. I spent an hour on the first 10 seconds of the piece....
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  hmmm...it's a nice piece. I know how to play the piano so it doesn't seem too difficult...but I've been playing for 15 years...
  lol how were you able to play th epiano with a sprained wrist...?
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  ban me2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You play piano? Thats awesome. I played for years as a kid. I stopped doing grades at 12 after I passed grade 5 but I stopped playing altogether at 15. I just bought a piano last month an started playing again. I cant describe how much I love it. Im learning a few simple pieces (by philip glass) to play in my mates restaurant
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  nice I like to play a lot of different pieces. My favorite is “Tarantula”
  Wow we really are off topic lol perhaps we should create another thread for this lol
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  ban me2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tarantula by the drum and bass artists Pendulum? I can play solfegietto by Bach from years ago, and I've managed to learn phillip glass's opening and also metamorphosis 1,2 & 3 in a couple weeks.
  
  I'm not at performance standard yet but im gettin close
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . I've got nearly 30 years on you, and 6 kids and 12 grandkids - and no one has ever loved a woman like my wife is loved by me . . . and she's still the prettiest girl I've ever seen.
  
  (I win)
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  haha!
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  ban me1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah man you win, hands down, I got sprained wrist trying to learn the guitar to impress her but you win.
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . I'm really not interested here to promote my hubs, honest, but I have one on my guitars as well (sorry, but I bet I beat you there too) - it's absurd how many stringed instruments are in this house. And, one of my 'poems' on a hub of love poems I wrote to her is a Blues tune about my wife.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And this is on topic how?
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . .uhh . . . I'm a Christian . . ?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ironic you don't see my point.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We did go off topic...shame on us
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . it's not my fault - ban me1 was being too friendly and AshtonFirefly was being too pretty . . . I got distracted.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Too pretty....and yet you claim to be Christian and the prettiest woman in your life is your wife?
  
  Good to know you're conflict, as expected.
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  ban me2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Uh oh I see a marital on the horizon.....
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MickeySrposted 12 years ago
Cagsil ~ I said my wife is the prettiest girl I've ever seen - I didn't say she is the only pretty girl I've ever seen . . . Ashton is very pretty, are you suggesting it's un-Christian or that I'm in some manner unfaithful to my wife if I acknowledge that Ashton is very pretty?!

. . . in what way am I "conflict, as expected" and why is it you apparently expect me to be "conflict"?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I have to explain it to you, then you have bigger issues than my explanation. So, I guess I'll leave it alone.
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Honestly, you think that's a reasonable, friendly, even civil response? You seemed accusatory in your comments to me and i don;t know why, so I ask you straightforwardly - and you say since I don;t already know what you're thinking you won't tell me, but I'm worse than you already suggested?!
  
  Wholly shmolly; we were enjoying a momentary diversion, off topic, but everyone (including the forum author) was having a nice time - then, because I told someone talking about putting on make-up they they looked pretty enough without make-up, though not as pretty as my wife, you insert yourself to assert that I'm probably not a Christian at all, admitting that you 'expect" me to evidence some manner of conflict, etc, and then say 'I'm done now' without offering a simple answer to a reasonable question about your accusation against me . . ?!
  
  C'mon Cagsil, you can't think that's justifiable conduct . . . I don't recall you having difficulty with me before, have I offended you somewhere along the line without knowing it?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I only said that you have bigger issues than working out/trying to figure, what I meant.
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you just tell me, since I'm asking, what you mean? And, that's not all you said; you suggested I might not really be a Christian and you said that you expected such . . ? Do you think I was acting un-Christian-like or being unfaithful to me wife because I said that Ashton is pretty? What flaw is it you are expecting to be revealed in me and why is it you expect such a flaw?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's one of the nice things. It's on a need to know basis and you've no rhyme or reason to know. So ponder it?
  You're the one calling yourself Christian. So if you were a true Christian, then you would have already turned the other cheek and pondered what was said. Yet, here you are?
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, I don't see much for me to ponder - I told a pretty girl that she is in fact pretty and you come in asserting that I may not be a Christian and that you expected some manner of conflict in me to be evidenced . . . and now you play this silly game of not speaking directly to someone asking honestly why you've brought public accusation against them - I suggest there are a few things you ought to ponder over for a bit.
  
  There's no cheek to turn, I'm merely asking you to clarify what you seem to have against me - I have little doubt that if you answered me like a man I, as a Christian, would have no difficulty turning the other cheek - as it stands, I don't know what I would be turning from, I don't know what your problem is.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, I didn't think you would.
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . . . so tell me - what do you get out of this silly cat-and-mouse nonsense . . . I've been assuming you were an adult man (I don't know why, but that was my assumption), are you in fact a 14 year old girl? You suggested I may not be a genuine Christian and I'm asking you why you announce such a public accusation - I'm asking a simple and direct question, only a punk would play coy about this.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Punk? Yet you think I'm a girl? WOW! How very Christian of you.
  
  You claim an accusation, when it's your claim to be Christian I wanted you to think about. And, yet you continue the offensive position(in your mind), but have been nothing but defensive since I said something.
  
  Do you know where that comes from? Do you have any inclination? Probably not, but I figured I would ask.
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  MickeySrposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, 'punk' . . . is this what you do here, go around blurting out ill-informed accusations against people you don't even know and then play the coquette, pretending to be inside them knowingly instigating them to consider some notion you think significant? I don't claim to be a Christian I simply acknowledge and share that I am, and I can explain how and why I am a Christian - you have no sound explanation to suspect I am not yet you declare I may not be, and that you expected as much . . !?
  
  Cagsil, I hope you're just having a bad night and we can become great pals - right now, you are acting like a punk. I suggest you move around these hubs and forums seeking to come to know yourself better and learn from others instead of playing these lame tit-for-tat self-serving games pretending to own insight into other's 'self'. If you think you know some point on which I could become a better person (or Christian) than I am now, then stop being a punk and talk man to man.
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MickeySrposted 12 years ago
Ashton, I'm sorry I participated in cluttering-up your forum with that bit of ugliness - I was genuinely perplexed at what I was being accused of and honestly thought I might get a straight answer at any moment. I'm sorry for my part in it.
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LisaRene Burtposted 12 years ago
I am a Pagan, as well as a Buddhist. I have raised my son to believe as he chooses. His father is an atheist, but like myself, he has allowed our son to explore his own path. Turns out my son believes in god, but states he is not a christian. He is almost 18 now, and he is a wonderful soul to know. I was given the choice as a child to decide what I wanted to believe in, and I in turn passed this respect on to my own child. As for the reason I am a Buddhist Pagan, it just so happens that the two chose me. I am aware that these may be in conflict with one another, but there is a huge degree of tolerance in both religions. So because of this, I continue to follow my heart in practicing both.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for sharing I find it great that you allow your child to find his own path, and his own beliefs.
  reply report

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