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Questioning the concept of Free Will

  1. maestrowhit profile image62
    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago

    Free Will is a rather loose topic. There are many arguments for and against it. I'm of the persuasion that free will is a deception of what the Bible calls Satan (the evil one, the great deceiver, the father of lies). I have a simple thought I want to explore through receipt of your responses.

    A rule of human nature that I've tested and come to discover is true is -

    People always do what they want to do the most.

    This implies that people are guided by their desires. Put another way is people are a slave to their desires.

    Have you ever really wanted to get in shape and the only thing stopping you was lack of motivation? Have you ever wanted badly to get something done, but didn't want to do it? DId it leave you feeling dissatisfied with yourself? You really wanted to do it, but you COULDN"T do it because you lacked the motivation.

    I've found that every action requires motivation. Without it, even the most trivial, effortless task is impossible.

    I believe Jesus is in all of us whether we claim His name or not. He said: "without me you can do nothing" That means everyone, believer and non-believer alike. I believe that Jesus and motivation are one and the same thing. It is God's spirit within us, giving us desires that enable us to do His will.

    Do see this truth? I imagine most of you do not. But I would like to hear your response.

    1. Make  Money profile image73
      Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I like that idea maestrowhit.  We should be thankful.

      Mike

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks! I agree

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Well written.You got to do your thing and the universe or God will do its thing-both work together. smile

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That's right, and there is no such thing as a mistake.

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly what seems to be free will  becomes destiny smile

          1. maestrowhit profile image62
            maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Took me a minute to process that one, but yeah, that's a another way to say the same thing. Thanks.

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              At that moment we may believe we are making a free choice ,but that choice is actually coming from the cosmos ,its ego which really believes it is free will,All has been destined since the beginning of time. smile

    3. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Why not content yourself with believing Jesus is in you, if you want to? There is no need to go believing for other people who can do their own believing, or not, as the case may be. You seem to be saying that you can 'see a truth' but you imagine most others can't. Does that make you a better seer than everyone else, or is it just possible your truth is not a truth after all?

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Call it whatever you want. What I'm saying here is that motivation is the word we use now for what Jesus referred to as Himself. You can call it corned beef hash if you want to - you can't do anything without this thing. I look at what I can't do anything without - motivation - and in that way I understand what Jesus was saying. He was saying that the engine that moves us is so much more than a neurological function of the brain. And it is something so personal that when fully understood, the only way to describe it is to say it is YOURSELF. That's the part of you that I call Jesus, or rather Jesus in you. That's just what I call it. You don't have to call it that, but I doubt you can deny that that part of you exists - even if you do think it's a neurological function of the brain. Calling it Jesus isn't necessary.

        1. Paraglider profile image89
          Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          The problem I have with that is that it's pretty much a truism. Except for involuntary actions (e.g. jumping at a sudden fright), by definition what we do is what we want to do at the point of doing it. Though of course it can reduce to an intellectual decision to do something we don't 'want' to do but have to because we do not want the consequences of not doing it. I agree 100% that calling it Jesus isn't necessary!

          1. maestrowhit profile image62
            maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            It may be a truism to you and I, but I know many people to whom it is not. Those people will hold on to the idea of free will to the end. Anything they hear that casts doubt on it they discard without even considering it. I heard one person (who I agree with) say that free will is an idol. It very much is.

            About that intellectual decision you mention - even in that case you are doing what you want to do the MOST. I believe that if you were in the path of a speeding train, but lacked even an inkling of desire to move out of the way and save yourself, then you would be incapable of doing so.

            You could also say that action is the same thing as desire.

            1. Paraglider profile image89
              Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Having said that, if you choose to eat some mussels and are unlucky enough to eat a bad one, it will have an effect on all your choices for the next day or so. Or if you choose to assassinate the president but happen to be inept with a gun, his world remains largely unchanged. What I'm getting at is that I don't accept what seems to be your wholly deterministic view of reality. There is too much 'butterfly effect' at work.

              1. maestrowhit profile image62
                maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I fail to see your point or how your comment follows from what you are commenting on. You seem superfluous, which is uncharacteristic of your earlier comments. I don't mean to dismiss what you are saying; I just don't know what it is you're saying. If I did, then I would be able to address it. Perhaps you could make yourself clearer.

                1. Paraglider profile image89
                  Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I think you meant 'superficial', not 'superfluous'? I have accepted that at the moment of acting, except when acting instinctively, you are doing what you immediately want to do. I don't accept that that is in any way 'mystical'. And I would say that the 'initial conditions' owe a great deal to chance, hence the example of the bad mussel or the bad marksman.

                  1. maestrowhit profile image62
                    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I meant superfluous in that you seemed to be straying from the line of discussion and being vague.

                    I never meant to say the absence of free will is mystical and unobservable. To anyone with an unclouded perception it is clear to see, and for them, redundant to mention. You seem to be in agreement with me.

                    I don't see the significance of your examples of derailed intentions and plans. Plans never go exactly as they are meant to; I think that is a pretty reliable rule. Besides, you can't do anything in the future, only right here, right now. So when you plan in your mind that you will eat a perfectly good mussel, then take your girl to the show and afterwards go to her place, you are doing something right then in you mind. The action is taking place right then - you are thinking. Then when you get sick from the mussel, you perform another action of thinking of a new plan (going straight home and throwing up). But what you are doing at all times is in no way a direct effect of that previous "plan" even though lots of people think it is. I have found in my life that planning becomes less and less necessary the more I let go of the need to control my life.

    4. secondsamuel profile image62
      secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I think it would be helpful if we put the statement by Jesus "without me you can do nothing" in context.

      John 15:4-6 (King James Version)
      4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: HE THAT ABIDETH IN ME, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING.

      6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

      I am not by any means a bible scholar, but after reading and studying the entire chapter of John 15, it has become apparent to me that Jesus was speaking to His desciples and anyone who desires to become His desciple. Here is another quote by Jesus in verse 3

        3 You are cleansed and pruned already, because of the word which I have given you [the teachings I have discussed with you].

      Jesus has already taught His desciples and they had already recieved His teachings as a way of life.

      I think it would be safe to say that if you are a desciple of Jesus Christ then you would be worthless without Him and His spirit living in you.

      Jesus makes it very clear that if we are to be His desciples then we must abide in Him and we must build our lives around His words (His teachings)

      I guess I would have to agree that a little bit of Jesus is in all of us if for no other reason than that of the blood line. We are all descendents of Adam and Eve (Jesus included) but I believe that His spirit is NOT in all of us. His spirit is in us only by invitation. An invitation is an act of FREE WILL.

      I will end this comment with this challenge to all who read this. Read and study upon the entire chapter of John 15, maybe even read the whole book of John. It is full of the "truth"

      1. Paraglider profile image89
        Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Been there, done that. And more.

      2. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Speaking of context, in order to receive the truth found in this chapter, you have to look at the concepts Jesus presents in order of precedence. Let me show you:

        ...HE THAT ABIDETH IN ME, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit... (v6)
        but we cannot do this of ourselves because  "without Me you can do nothing."

        You see, it is foundational. Our inability to act independent of Jesus PRECEDES everything else, because everything else is an ACTION (which we cannot do by our own will).

        again

        (v4) abide in me and I in you...

        First of all this is taking about an act of Jesus in conjunction with an act on our part. We abide in Him; He abides in us. It doesn't say that IF we abide in Him He will abide in us. He describes it as one action complete within itself. And to understand how this is done, we again go back to what takes precedence.......we cannot abide in Him by our own will because ..."without Me you can do nothing."

        He doesn't say that without Him we can only do some things. We can do NOTHING. That includes making choices, changing our hearts, repenting, etc etc etc.

        Moving on to your next reference, you site John 15:3.
        You are cleansed and pruned already, because of the word which I have given you [the teachings I have discussed with you].

        This does not say that we are cleansed because we sought out the word and built our lives around it. It says quite the contrary. We are ALREADY cleansED and prunED because of the word Jesus GAVE us. We aren't GOING to be cleansed and pruned. We are ALREADY cleansed and pruned. That means the work is already done. The GIFT (His word) has been given.

        1. secondsamuel profile image62
          secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          John 15
          1I AM the True Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser.
          2 Any branch in Me that does not bear FRUIT [that stops bearing] He cuts away (trims off, takes away); and He cleanses and repeatedly prunes every branch that CONTINUES to bear FRUIT, to MAKE it bear MORE and RICHER and more EXCELLENT fruit.
          3 You are cleansed and pruned already, because of the word which I have given you [the teachings I have discussed with you].
          4 DWELL IN ME AND I WILL DWELL IN YOU. [Live in Me, and I will live in you.] Just as no branch can bear fruit of itself without abiding in (being vitally united to) the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in Me.
          5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
          6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

          Ok let’s look at a more user friendly translation of the bible (the Amplified Bible) which is typed above . There is a key word to study in this text. As you might know, our English bibles were translated from the Hebrew  and Greek languages. The word  “fruit” in this particular passage is taken from the Greek word (karpos) and this word refers to the fruit of the spirit which are found in Galations 5:22-23 which goes like this

          [22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
          23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

          What Jesus is saying here is that we can not bear the fruit of the spirit without Him/his spirit in us. I think this is quite evident in the world around us in that not everyone has or displays these qualities. He is talking about fruit only.

          Also verse 4 says [dwell in me and I will dwell in you]. To dwell somewhere or in something is an act of free will. But please allow me to go a little further with the following text from the same chapter

          19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
          20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
          21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

          All of these things are called the works of the flesh. I’m sure we are all familiar with at least some of them. But people do these things of their own “free will” and for the most part don’t even have to work at doing  these things because they come naturally. Did Christ say that if you abide in Him you will bear much fruit of darkness and evil? Yes I agree that we do what we want to do but isn’t that free will. There are a lot of things that I do that I don’t want to do but I do them because I need to do them, but I do it because I will to do it. It is my God given choice to do what ever I want to do or to do what He wants me to do.

          (3) You are cleansed and pruned already, because of the word which I have given you [the teachings I have discussed with you].

          What about the branches that were cut off of the vine because they quit producing fruit. Why were they cut off; they were cut off because they stopped producing fruit. The branches that remained were pruned so that would produce more fruit. Jesus chose his 12 disciples and He taught them His ways and they adhered to His teachings and made it a way of life. They abided in the words of Jesus. They abided in His words because they chose to abide in His words. An act of free will. Judas chose to betray Jesus out of an act of free will. Jesus didn’t make Judas betray Him, he did it out of the lust for money., another act of free will.
          Well maestro I could go on and on, I have much more to give you to disprove the free will theory but I think I have taken up enough space for now. I will continue to pray that you someday see the truth and then you can be free. lol

          1. maestrowhit profile image62
            maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            No need to pray for my freedom. I know the truth, and I am free already.

            Romans 7
            17) So now, )no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
            18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
            19) For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
            20) But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

            The works of the flesh that you mentioned are not done by Free Will. This passage shows that because of the sin that dwells in us, we cannot do good things even though we try. Instead, the sin living in us does things through us that we do not want to do. This shows that dwelling in Jesus cannot be done by our own will. Even though we want to do good by dwelling in Him, the sin within us moves us against our will.

            To show you more completely what I'm saying, here's more scripture -

            Romans 8
            7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is NOT even ABLE to do so,
            8) and those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God.

               (the words in caps are capitalized by me to show emphasis)

            You see, unless we are chosen by Him and anointed by His spirit, we aren't able to do His will, which is to bear the fruit of the spirit (which you mentioned). The next passage tells it plainly -

            John 15
            16" You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

            Side note: I left off the bulk of your post to save space, but I am replying to the entire thing nevertheless.
            Also, I'm using the New American Standard Bible

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              We dont know which age we are supposed to  die- what free will ?

            2. secondsamuel profile image62
              secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I'm kind of busy today but thought I would drop in and make a short comment. First of all you are not free because according to you we have no freedom or free will so if you have no free will how is it that you are free? Also I would like to ask you a question. Does God have free will  and please elaborate in your answer. And does Jesus Christ have free will?

              1. maestrowhit profile image62
                maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Free will does not equate true freedom. True freedom is to live outside the confines of false, deceptive, limiting beliefs. That is what "the truth will make you free" really means. Truth makes you free from a life lived inside a lie. The truth that all things come from God, and not from God's creation, is one step towards that freedom.

                God never fails. God always succeeds. God never makes a mistake. God is not limited by anything. God is the great I AM; pure existence. God's will is the ONLY will there is because NOTHING opposes it.

                I think that answers both your questions without any need for elaboration. But I'll be glad to tell you more it you still want it.

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Lovely smile Your grasp is just superb smile

                2. viralprospector profile image61
                  viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  There is and never was true freedom. there never will be. Your issue with this is just wat is the truth, not all the window dressing. Once you find the truth, then you can apply all the skills to act on the truth correctly. It just takes discipline, and my 16 year old has already fully mastered it. Just focus on the discipline part of it. However, there is nothing worse than a well honed execution of the wrong plan. Literally, every major psychopath of renown is nothing more than that. First, you must know the truth. Get that wrong, and you are totally doomed, and all the people around you are destroyed. Forget all the window dressing and find the truth.

                  1. maestrowhit profile image62
                    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    It's funny how you never use scriptural reference, but all of your ideas are God-based. These are just YOUR ideas until you can back them up with scripture. I have backed mine up with scripture and will continue to do so. I would understand if you were an atheist who didn't believe the Bible contained any truth, but that isn't you. You present yourself as a God-believing Christ following Christian, but you use NO SCRIPTURE.

                    John 8
                    36"So if the Son makes you free, you will be FREE INDEED.

                    That's true freedom, my friend - right out of the mouth of Jesus.

                    But the thing is, I didn't need to read it to know it because freedom isn't known by reading someone's words; it's known by experiencing it in your soul. I know true freedom from experience. If you don't think true freedom exists, you're missing out, man! Let me tell you some news - it does exist!

              2. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                And does Jesus Christ have free will?[/ No none at all.

              3. Make  Money profile image73
                Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                maestrowhit the first two Bible quotes you posted from Romans 7 and Romans 8 are talking about living in the flesh.

                We either live in the flesh or we live in the Spirit.  Living in the flesh is living in sin.  Living in the Spirit is not.  But we are all sinners so to get out of living in the flesh and to move to living in the Spirit we confess our sins to receive God's Grace so we can then live in the Spirit again.  In John 20:23 while speaking to His disciples Jesus said this,


                All down through the years since Jesus ordained His disciples, ordained priests have done the same.  Living in the flesh compared to living in the Spirit and the Sacrament of Confession are not really topics for a discussion forum.  These are best learned in Catechism classes or possibly a Bible study course.  Some Christian denominations do not have the Sacrament of Confession.  It's actually called the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the Catholic Church.  You know, the act of reconciling with God.

                In John 15:16 the verse is not speaking to the reader, it is Jesus speaking directly to His disciples.

                So we do have the free will to do what God requests now that Christianity has been spread to just about every country in the world.  It would be hard in those countries that Christianity is oppressed though.

                Mike

                1. maestrowhit profile image62
                  maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Ephesians 2
                  8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
                  9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

                  Mike, saying a few words does nothing for your spirit. Only the grace of God. The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is not an outline of motions that one must go through to insure security in the afterlife.
                  Confessing is a work. We are not saved by works, but by grace.

                  What Jesus said to His disciples holds true for everyone. Beacuse...
                  Hebrews 13
                  8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

                  1. Make  Money profile image73
                    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes maestrowhit grace is a gift from God for our faith, not as a result of works as we see in Ephesians 2.

                    But faith without works is dead as we see in James chapter 2, twice.



                    Note in verse 19 it is saying that devils also believe in God.

                    James chapter 2 finishes with it again.



                    In another thread I posted this below.



                    So as Christians we are to follow both the Bible as well as the traditions of the Church.

                    Quote from this web page about Sacraments


                    maestrowhit from the above web page you might want to read the chapter on 'How the sacraments cause grace: theological controversies'.

                    And also On Grace and Free Will from the Fathers of the Church written by St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427.

                    Here's more on Grace.

                    As you can see you have picked a deep subject.  There's a lot to theology.  I think I'm going to just stick with the Bible and the traditions of the Church. smile   

                    Regarding what you mentioned here,


                    You were replying to me saying this.


                    Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples in that verse but you may be right with what you say.  If that's the case then we know what we should be doing if we are in fact chosen.


                    I hope you find the answers you are looking for regarding free will.

                    Peace be with you
                    Mike

  2. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "I've found that every action requires motivation. Without it, even the most trivial, effortless task is impossible." I guess you eat and sleep for jesus.

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I didn't say I do anything FOR Jesus. Yes, eating takes motivation. As for sleeping, when it isn't an act requiring motivation, it is involuntary just like your beating heart. Ever fell asleep at the wheel? Many have, and I don't think they did it on purpose (by free will, in other words).

  3. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    there are some people who say, "Jesus sweet baby Jesus" and call on love to guide them in thier frustrations and forgive and do all those sweet old lady things that everyone wishes was thier neighbor...

    then there are those who say "Jesus sweet baby Jesus" I pray you will have your revenge on those who hurt me because of you.

    then there are those who say, "Jesus sweet baby Jesus",  what the hell is wrong with you, couldn't you have been a little more clear about what you meant?

    then there are those who say "Jesus, who is that?" or "Jesus was a man" or Jesus was a prophet or a sage or the perfect human or, or, or...

    How bout this...I am super human.  I believe this, why you ask?  Being I am 100 percent human.  Not 50/god and 50/human, or any other variable. 

    I think that qualifies me for the catagory of "super natural human being" lol.  smile  ok off to catch some lobsters.  smile

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It doesn't matter what people think of Jesus. He is what He is/was. What matters more is what people think of themselves. I think you share these sentiments, or at least it appears that way. I personally think the life and death of Jesus matter a lot. That's not what everyone thinks, but that doesn't make me right and them wrong.

      1. Ben Bush profile image61
        Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        If I am misunderstanding you, please let me know.
        What people think about Jesus is very important. In fact, Jesus asks his own disciples, "Whom do men say that I am?" He said this to get to the heart of who he actually was. So if Jesus asks that question to his own followers, who are we to discount it?smile

        1. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Who Jesus is, and What He is, and what his purpose is are all very important. I imagine if Jesus were walking and talking today and I were one of His followers, He might confront me about what I thought of Him, and what others thought of Him. But in that case, His existence would be undeniable. He wouldn't be a matter of faith, but fact. That's how it was when He asked His apostles questions like that. He was performing miracles and astounding crowds of people, so being an item of public opinion provided a good segue for making a point about himself.

          But today, conditions are completely different. Jesus isn't a public figure going around ministering to people. Instead there are millions of people (not Jesus) who call themselves by His name (Christians) all of whom do not perform miracles, or "works," as jesus called them, and do as much harm to society as they do good. Jesus is nowhere to be seen. He is alive in that His spirit lives within all of us, and our spirit in Him.

          Point being - He is what He is, and continues to save regardless of what the people He is saving think of Him. The burden of salvation is not on us. That is the whole point of what He did. He took the burden so that we don't have to do ANYTHING. He did it all.

          You know, I wish people would stop telling non-believers that Jesus will save them, or that Jesus can save them if only they will give their life/heart to Him. That is such a load of crap. My version of that is - "Jesus is saving you, has been saving you your whole life, and will continue to do His work in you. Don't believe it? That's ok. You don't have to. You may not ever believe it; if so, then that's His will, and you won't be any worse off than those who do believe it."

          1. Make  Money profile image73
            Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Well that's where I disagree.  You have to believe in Jesus to be saved.  Obviously you believe in Heaven but hell exists too.  And it's your prerogative to not believe that as well.

            1. maestrowhit profile image62
              maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I won't argue with you. It's just unfortunate that your picture of existence includes a fiery place called Hell where people go after they die. Hell isn't meant to be taken as a literal place. It is only used symbolically in scriptures. But that's a whole different can of worms.

              1. Make  Money profile image73
                Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                It is mentioned 24 times in the New Testament and 86 times in the Old Testament.  Not all people go there.  I am not arguing either but if you are not taking it as a literal place then what do you think hell is symbolic of?

                1. Milla Mahno profile image59
                  Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  The Earth I think. Or rather our earthy life...

                  1. 0
                    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    death, in the grave, burried in the ground, in there day they used to have fires that stayed lit day and night to burn the dead.  They called it hell, they called it hades, the call it , oh what is it, sheol...

                    it is literal, but it is the place where the dead bodies go whether burnt up like cremation or in the ground.  smile They go only after death.  After being the key word, they are not burned alive and they are not burried alive.  smile

                2. maestrowhit profile image62
                  maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Spiritual death.

              2. 0
                jaimelinus0316posted 8 years ago in reply to this

                What is Hell symbolic of? Is Heaven symbolic too? If so, what is it symbolic of?

          2. secondsamuel profile image62
            secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this
    2. DEQ profile image61
      DEQposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Sandra! You always seem to amaze me with your intellect. SUPERHUMAN...yes you are!

      1. 0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks DEQ, been out for a while?

        TK- now if I can get you laugh everyday....     smile smile

  4. quicksand profile image86
    quicksandposted 8 years ago

    A great man once said that there is some evil in the best of men and some good in the worst of men. These traits are embedded into the programming of our system and thus when some good emerges from us, the "Jesus" quality manifests. The reverse is also true. However, our free will to chose is strangely observed to be governed by some unrecognizable factor. The question arises as to, do WE make the choice?

    Answers are available in the form of mere phrases, accessible to everyone. You could select one depending on the your personal experiences, prejudices etc. The question arises as to, do WE make the choice?

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      This question arises from the illusion of cause and effect. It implies that if there is a chosen action (effect) then there must be a cause. Who is the cause of the choice? Who makes it? I say that no one makes it. There is no cause and effect - only effect. We are all part of the same thing. That thing has a will that operates without consent of it's parts (us). Rather, it's parts operate entirely by the will of the whole.

      1. quicksand profile image86
        quicksandposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Wow! That does make sense. It really does!

        1. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Good! My description was successful. Thanks

  5. Milla Mahno profile image59
    Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago

    I don't know that either of you are right.  Free will seems to cost me a fortune.  ;P

  6. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    This is an intereting discussion, and my view has to do with the Bible's version of this. In the Bible, God knows everything, and He knew it before anything was created. Still, He allows to make every choice. This is hard to explain, isn't it?

    Yet, He allows us to make our own decisions totally. He intervenes with inputs to us, just as all our experiences are inputs. We have total free will or we would find ourselves speaking a foreign language or something to show that we do NOT have free will. That never happens. Even all the mystical mumbo jumbo is just the free will to live with mumbo jumbo. I completely discredit it, but I know some people believe it fully, too. That is just free will to choose that lifestyle or not.

    The most all powerful "concept" in the universe is God, in my opinion. Yet, those who believe in Him also believe that we all have choices to make. God wants us to choose good, but He allows us to choose bad. While that is the extreme part of His presence in our lives, it carries over to everything we do. We choose it. No one can show me even one example of where I cannot choose to do or not do something. Therefore, while God knows what I will choose, I get to choose it 100% of the time.

    I do believe that God influences the results of my actions some times. I also believe that God helps me do things that I could not do otherwise. That is the power of God, not controlling what I choose to do.

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You started out with Biblical content, but then went into a non-Biblical concept. This idea you present of us having the free will to choose one way or the other cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. I too believe in God, but contrary to your opinion about people who believe in God, I do not believe in such a thing as free will. You say you base your viewpoint of this topic on the Bible. So show me. What scripture are you talking about? I'll give you some scriptures of my own.

      look at John 15:5
                 John 5:19
                 John 6:44
                 John 15:16

      These are in no particular order. And there is much more where that came from

      1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image91
        mistyhorizon2003posted 8 years ago in reply to this

        In general I try to avoid these discussions as neither party will usually give ground, but I am curious, if Adam and Eve had no 'Free Will' then how did they choose to eat the apple from the tree of life?

        1. secondsamuel profile image62
          secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          good question and this is what I think (if that means anything)
          God clearly told them not to eat that fruir from that tree, but the serpent (satan) came crawling and told EVE; "God did not surely tell you not to eat of that tree and if you go ahead and eat it you will have great knowledge. Now what did eve do? She was at a crossroads she was tempted and challenged, she had to make a choice. So she chose to eat of that tree of her own free will ..........that's my story and i'm stickin-to-it........SS big_smile

          1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image91
            mistyhorizon2003posted 8 years ago in reply to this

            That does make sense in terms of them having 'free will', so thanks for replying smile

            1. secondsamuel profile image62
              secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Yes I would that they had a free will I mean what other reason could they have had. I don't think God hiipnotized them like zombies

        2. Make  Money profile image73
          Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          That's a real good example of free will in the Bible mistyhorizon2003.  Probably the best.

          I was just thinking of another one.  In Luke 1:38 when the Archangel Gabriel visits Mary about being the Mother of God, Mary chooses to accept by saying "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."

          1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image91
            mistyhorizon2003posted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Thank You 'Make Money' I had to ask as it seemed the obvious question smile

            1. Make  Money profile image73
              Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              No thank you.  We should have thought about looking for examples of free will in the Bible to start with.  That pretty much puts an end to any discussion regarding free will versus predestination.

              Mike

  7. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit;

    As usual, you say you disagree with me, then post scriptures that say exactly what I said.

    Again, show me that I cannot do exactly what I want. I have total free will. God knew everything before He created Adam and Eve. Do you have any worthwhile comments to that? Certainly, your scriptures listed do not contradict that, only you.

    Please refrain from trying to mislead the others who read and do not bother to look up the scriptures. Thanks.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      If God knew everything, and the prophecies are supposed to come to pass then how much free will does a person actually have. 

      It makes you a player with an illusion of free will.  Free will would indicated that a person or people can ulitmately choose to change the prophecy but according to the Bible it will come to pass, so were is the free will?

      There is not sarcasim in this reply and no attacks or anything of that sort.  Please let's have a civil discussion.  smile

      1. Ben Bush profile image61
        Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I realize that your question was addressed to Viralprospector. I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at it.smile

        One phrase helps to understand the whole idea of free will:....."the foreknowledge of God."

        If God already knows what you will freely choose, God is then free to act in a way that does not override that free will. True prophecy comes from God pursuant to this foreknowledge.

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Then by this definition, could you say that some people were made to be damned and others were not?  So if God already knew that I would not accept Jesus as my savior, then what was the purpose of my life?  Does that make the purpose of my life to be the recipient of hate by the followers of Christ? 

          Is there nothing that can be found of importance in my life with regards to God?  Or I must be like a domesticated animal,  made for your (christian to general) amusement?

          I never mind when you butt in, like I said before, I don't usually agree with you on just about anything but your thoughts are interesting.  So where some understanding can be found I will take it where I can find it.  smile

        2. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          The problem with that scriptural reference is that it says nothing about the will of man. You injected that topic into it. The conclusion you came to by using that scripture is based wholly on your own belief in free will, and not on anything in scripture. Basically, you combined a little snippet of scripture with a concept of entirely unscriptural basis, giving it the illusion of being scriptural.

      2. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        It makes you a player with an illusion of free will.  Yes and your real will is the cosmic or Gods will.Then you will burn out your desires.If there is no difference between God and you then there is no ego following his will smile

    2. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I've encountered you before. You are full of empty, cruel accusations. So far, this forum has been pleasant, intelligent, patient exchanges of ideas - until now. You have changed that atmosphere.

      Have you read the original post? I explain in it how free will is unfounded and nonexistent. Yes you can do whatever you want, but you can't WANT whatever you want. And you cannot do what you have absolutely no desire (motivation) to do. In this way, there is no free will. You are bound to follow the path of your motivations, which you ultimately cannot control. This is just restating in different order what I originally said.

      Now, tell me, really, how do the scriptures I referred you to just repeat back what you said to me. Tell me how God knowing everything before it happens supports free will. I'm asking because I don't already know, and I want to hear it from you.

      Come on and join the conversation like the rest of us. Otherwise, keep your rudeness to yourself.

  8. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit:

    Please wipe your eyes and get back to the game, OK?

    You wrote, "I've encountered you before. You are full of empty, cruel accusations. So far, this forum has been pleasant, intelligent, patient exchanges of ideas - until now. You have changed that atmosphere."

    I see... that is a nice comment, right? What did I say? Nothing... As always, you started it, and I am just replying. What a baby! I said absolutely nothing to elicit that response from you. You just get all up in arms if I do not agree with you.

    All I did is write my opinion. Whatever...

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      To answer your question -
      You accused me of trying to mislead people. And now you're calling me names and being insulting.

      I've been advised by more than one source not to humor you with a response. I'm waiting for you to say something substantial. Until then, I'm going to take that advice

  9. Milla Mahno profile image59
    Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago

    What a "nice" discussion you have here people. Is it worth it?

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It has been nice up till VP posted.

      1. Milla Mahno profile image59
        Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        It takes two to tango, doesn't it? wink

        1. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          yeah, well, I'm not tangoing any more. I'm glad you stepped in, actually. I admit I shouldn't have responded in the first place. I should've learned from previous experiences with this guy

  10. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Sandra;

    I say to you the exact same thing I say to anyone. If you treat me with respect, I will reciprocate. If you intentionally say something that I consider inappropriate, I will reply exactly the same to you.

    You wrote, "If God knew everything, and the prophecies are supposed to come to pass then how much free will does a person actually have."

    I said nothing of prophesies. I do not think that is relevent to free will. I think that should be understood from my posts, but if there are questions on my opinions, just ask. Do you think you do not have free will? If not, why? I think everyone does. 

    You wrote, "It makes you a player with an illusion of free will.  Free will would indicated that a person or people can ulitmately choose to change the prophecy but according to the Bible it will come to pass, so were is the free will?"

    Player might have been better phrased, but that's OK. God knows what free will decisions we all will make ahead of time. That just means that He is onmnicsient, as the Bible says. He is not controlling of us by His choice. I think this is the best of all worlds. I can call on God for help with my actions, words and thoughts. He responds to me. However, He does not force Himself on me, in my best knowledge. If I were to choose to reject Him, He might allow that. Then, I would lose out on much of my power through His ultimate power.

    Why would I want to change prophesies? I have many better things to do. If I like the prophesy, I try to make it come through. If not, I do otherwise. Wisdom comes over time, and I find that things I did not like, I now like. I believe that God is incomprehensible to such a small mind and heart as mine. I trust Him as I have faith in Him. I do not dare to question Him. If He is who He says He is, then anyone would be a fool to question Him. No, everyone, I did not call anyone a fool. Read the sentence.

    You wrote, "There is not sarcasim in this reply and no attacks or anything of that sort.  Please let's have a civil discussion.  smile"

    I did not sense any animosity in your post, and I would have answered it exactly the same without this comment.

  11. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit;

    You said, "You are bound to follow the path of your motivations, which you ultimately cannot control."

    Frankly, that shows a very weak perspective. I absolutely can and do control my motivations. I am shocked to hear that you cannot. That is not to say that I am perfect, just forgiven if necessary. Still, I bat a very high percentage.

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      So, have you ever wanted to do something but lacked the motivation to do it, so you ended up not doing it?

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Would some one pointing a gun at your head and telling you to do something be considered motivation?

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That depends. Would you be motivated by someone pointing a gun at your head? Most people would. I would. And in that moment, the thing I would want to do the most would probably be whatever it was the guy holding the gun told me to do.

        However, it is possible that a person can lack the will to live. Or it is possible that a person would rather die than to do what the gun-wielding man was telling them to do. In either case, my observation holds true. People always do what they want to do the most, and cannot do anything without the presence of motivation.

  12. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    I believe the concept of the discussion is in the ultimate outcome of life.

    In the end, did you ever really have a say in it? 

    Yes, I have free will but ultimately no matter what I do, I never got to chose being born, and in all actuallity cannot even choose when I die. 

    Suicide could be considered the choosing to die, but we all know by now that it doesn't even always work out for those people either.

    So I perfectly understand the concept that maestrowhit is suggesting, that we don't really have free will, and I understand the concept of the way she is using the term motivation. 

    I don't find anything that she is saying to ignorant or weak.  I think she has clearly defined her concept excluding things like breathing, unless of course you were in a possition which required you to have to motivate youself to breath.  lol

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for your kindness. One thing, though - I'm a he, not a she. That's ok, there's no way you could have known. lol

      Yes, suicide is funny like that. I know from experience.

      The existence of involuntary actions, or bodily functions if you will, only goes to underline my suggestion further. Anything that doesn't require motivation is completely involuntary. Our lungs breathe for us. Our heart beats on its own. This alone should be evidence that discredits the idea of total free will.

      1. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        \ Our lungs breathe for us. Our heart beats on its own. This alone should be evidence that discredits the idea of total free will.Exactly-what free will ?what control? very very little if any. smile

        1. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, and the same goes for sleep, and reflexes, and sexual attraction.
          Another one that some people would argue with is interest. We aren't interested in what we choose to be interested in. Rather, we follow our interests. My wife doesn't like Pink Floyd, and I do. I liked it when I first heard it; when she first heard it, she didn't like it. I could try really hard not to like it, but that would be fruitless, and likewise for her liking it.

          When you start to narrow down the all the things you do that you have no control over, the things that seem to be in your control diminish more and more.  As the realization dawns on you that you have no free will, it can seem like the will you have is being taken away from you, and it is frightening. But the thing is, nothing is being taken away from you but the illusion that you were burdened with. There was no free will to begin with, so there is nothing to fear. But that doesn't make the process of realization any less frightening.

          1. Paraglider profile image89
            Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I think we're in danger of making too much of this question. Claims to absolute free will are clearly wrong, as are claims to absolute determinism. What's difficult about the concept of relative free will tempered by randnomness (or chaos)? Mohit's example - our lungs breathe for us naturally when we're asleep or not thinking about breathing, but any musician, athlete or yogist understands very well how to take control of lung function better to serve the needs of the music, the race or the meditation. I decided this morning to check out this thread on hubpages. The argument that says I had no choice in the matter is inevitably retrospective - you did it, therefore you had no choice. It's one of these arguments that can't be logically refuted but it makes no predictions and goes nowhere.

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I repeat I like what Ramana Maharishi says about free will and destiny.He gives and example of a cow with a rope around its neck.The cow can move freely till the limitations of the rope.He may believe he has free will but actually does not.I believe the universe does what it wants with me. :)It puts me into a position and makes me believe I am doing.

              1. Paraglider profile image89
                Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I think we're getting to semantics here, which is usually a sign that a discussion has reached its natural conclusion. I'd say that the rope doesn't represent the limit of free will but rather the limit of ability to act. None of us is omnipotent.I would love to run a half marathon in 75 minutes but the best I've ever achieved is 88 (and that was a few years ago!). It's not for lack of will. It's just a natural boundary.

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  hhhahha call it a natural boundry if you want to. smile

                  1. Paraglider profile image89
                    Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I just did wink

            2. maestrowhit profile image62
              maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              WIth a thing like free will, conclusions can't really be drawn by means of this kind of inquiry and discussion. My intentions were never to prove one way or another, but to simply bring to light an avenue of thinking that may or may not have been explored by anyone reading it. I just wanted to share my perspective to give people something to think about.

              You're still posting replies, so clearly, you're still interested. You still feel compelled to give your input on the subject. I'd say the real end of a discussion is when only one person remains in it. Just today, there have been four participants here.

              The point of talking about this is not to discover anything that is observable. Because if you believe in free will, it's because in your own every-day state of mind, it is undeniable that you are controlling at least some of your actions. No one can come to you with mere words and change this deeply fundamental part of your perception.

              But to me, free will is an illusion. People think they are implementing their wills, making decisions, following plans, etc etc. But it isn't so. I wish I could, in words, show a person what I see, but I cannot. I can only bring up what I can, and see if anyone is interested. No it doesn't draw any empirical conclusions, but it does make small conclusions within the people involved. We aren't going to discover groundbreaking news in this forum just by volleying ideas back and forth, but everyone here was drawn here by something in them, and that's where things are accomplished thorough these kinds of discussions - inside the individual.

              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                My example-I never wanted to become a poet-the universe has other plans.My free will is non existent compared to the universal will. smile
                maestrowhit-you have droppped your ego and become an abserver and so you have come to this conclusion -you are abviously looking at the one and not two .smile
                Also I am intrigued by your profile picture.How did you make it?

                1. maestrowhit profile image62
                  maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  My computer is an Imac. The monitor has a built in camera, and it came with a program called Photobooth that has a selection of effects. I have wooden human figure doll on my desk that I use as a reference tool for drawing. I put a big sheet of paper behind it, posed it the way you see in the picture, set the effect to comic-book and took the picture. My profile picture is what resulted.

                  Sorry everyone - this is completely off topic.

                  What do you mean by I'm looking at the one and not two? I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure. Thanks for your kindness.

                  1. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks and I am also sorry for going off topic-back to the topic.Its my pleasure.

                    The moment you involve your ego or the "I" then everything goes wrong-you will believe you are instrumental and the doer.One needs to observe or watch without any ego.

  13. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    My bad, sorry I assumed you were a girl.  oops.  lol

  14. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Mohitmisra;

    I have indicated that I have total 100% free will. You seem to be saying that that is not true, albeit not to me directly. Show me a few things that I do not have that 100% free will about. Can you. I am not sure I still understand what you are claiming. It may be semantics, but I do not think so. Thank you.

    As I said before, God is omniscient. So, as I also know I said before (sorry to repeat), that makes this difficult to explain and comprehend.  God knows what I will choose, but I still get to choose. I think I can make the point best by you showing me that any of this is wrong. The key is who God is. He does not direct choices, but His power allows Him to know my choices in advance.

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Can you control your likes and dislikes? Can you control what you are and aren't interested in?
      And I don't mean through lots of concentration over a long period of time. I mean simple, immediate interest. Here's what I mean.

      I don't know if you're a guy or a girl, and I don't know much about you, but I am certain that there are things you like and things you dislike. Lets say you like listening to Christian music, and you do not like listening to Marylyn Manson. When Manson comes on, you want to turn it off because you don't like it, for whatever reason. You'd rather listen to Christian music; when it comes on, it makes you feel good.

      Can you choose, by your free will to like Manson when it comes on? I mean, that initial reaction of dislike that you encounter when it comes on - can you decide that you'll like it instead? And I mean really like it- can you make yourself find pleasure in it like you do the Christian music?

      I'll go ahead and cover that you can probably change this preference over a long period of time by doing lots of mental conditioning. But would you want to? And that's even more. No, you wouldn't want to. You probably never will want to. Not unless you were so motivated to prove me wrong that you went through the trouble to force yourself to like it. And in that case, you would still be controlled by your motivations - the motivation to prove something.

      My point is you cannot want what you want to want. Your wants and desires are involuntary. Can you show me how they aren't?

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      God knows what I will choose, but I still get to choose. Here comes the ego, the division between you and God.He chooses through what you feel is you.In reality there is One .When you have the two which is you and God then you will believe you have free will. :)When you have merged with God then what? smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mohitmisra;

        If you want to combine yourself with God, then you have not chosen the same God I worship. I cannot answer to your version of God.

        My God leaves me free to choose everything, 100%. He knows what I will choose because He is onmiscient. The very last thing I would ever even think of doing is to say that I, full of sin and missteps, can merge with the Creator of heaven and earth. He can accept or deny me, as I have fallen short of my best. So, my free will is not ego, it is a fact. I do not have to use ego to recognize a fact, just intelligence.

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Firstly God is One the Light,Holy Spirit,Shiva,Ahura Mazda etc.

          The Christian merges with the Holy spirit,
          Peace,no more desperate.   I say you can merge with the creator like Jesus did.

          Tell me do you think God the creator made you?

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Mohitmisra;

            You said, "Firstly God is One the Light,Holy Spirit,Shiva,Ahura Mazda etc.

            The Christian merges with the Holy spirit,
            Peace,no more desperate.   I say you can merge with the creator like Jesus did.

            Tell me do you think God the creator made you?"

            Yes, God created me. However, the Bible says there is only one God, and that is what I believe. People are capable of making radical changes to their attitudes and behavior without God. People employ those tactics, and I do not resent that if done properly. However, I cannot and will not accept that there is more than one God, since I would not believe in God, then. Christians have to reject all other gods, or they reject the heart of Christianity. No, yours is not my God. I am subservient to Him, not merged. I, nor anyone else, is merged with Him except Jesus who cam to earth as God in the flesh. All others are subservient to Him whether we like it or not, according to the Bible which I believe.

            Happiness, according to psychologists now, is based on helping others and living in the moment. Living in the moment is done with methods like drugs and meditation. I do not need to reject my past or ignore my future to be happy with those methods, for example. I am not accusing you of that whatsoever. Instead, I am giving examples of how people can think God is at work, when it is simple psychology. I also believe that it is true that helping others is a proven way to achieve happiness.

            There is a huge difference with God.

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              So if God made you dont you think he made your thoughts as well-all is god.You belive you made your thoughts is ego involved correct?
              The Christian God is not Jesus but The Holly Spirit-Jesus was the Prophet.The same way Jesus got enlighjtened and talked about the Light all other Prophets have as well.Yes God is One.
              You can look ate God as your father,mother,brother,siter,friend,his servant or lover-sweetheart-all are okay.

              Living in the now is being one with God,
              Or else one is just a fraud.

              Live now and plan for tommorrow,
              Otherwsie expect sorrow. smile

              1. viralprospector profile image61
                viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this
                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I meant no disrespect at all.This is a Hindu philosophy.

                  written these lines

                  I remember I am insipid.
                  How can you harm me my beautiful cupid. smile
                  --------------------------

                  I know I am married to the Light,
                  Should I find a partner for my earthly delight.

                  Man is considered the male form of god and the woman the female.
                  He,she and it is God.

                  Meaning God or your woman can be looked upon as your lover as well.

                  God did not make my thoughts.
                  God the creator has made you-that means he has made your thoughts as well.Its ego if you believe you have made your thoughts while everything else has been made by God.God works through man as well.

                  Jesus was a messenger an enlightened one- awakened one.
                  He says he is the son of god and also me and my father (holy spirit) are one indicating there is no difference between him and god as he has fused with the Light.Both are correct.


                  Its the same for Krishan or Shiva- man becoming God-man.

                2. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I am not one with God per se. I am a miserable sinner who has no right to be saved by Jesus Christ, but I am.
                  I am self realised or have gained enlightenment-become one with god without having a master or a guru. smile

  15. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maeestrowhit;

    I can and do control all of the things you listed. I have absolutely zero interest in proving you wrong. You just happen to think the opposite of me, so I am simply making my point.

    I said earlier that I think it is weak to be unable to control yourself. I just control myself, that's all. Again, is there something that I cannot control? I say there is not. The reason I asked Mohimistra for examples is to clarify our positions. At this point, there is just confusion here.

    I cannot prove the absence of something. I cannot prove that I have total free will, nor would I care to. You want to make it a debate. I am just sharing my ideas and asking for clarification. Do you just want to make it into an argument, so that you can call me names and say I am a bad man?

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      you must be imagining things. I didn't call you or anyone else names. Nor did I say you were a bad man. I'll tell you flat out right now that you are a GOOD man. I know enough about you to know that.

      I'm seriously not debating anything. You asked for clarification, that's all I gave you.

      I wasn't suggesting that you wanted to prove me wrong. What I was saying is that in order for you to force yourself into liking something that you can't help but dislike, there has to be  some kind of overriding motivation - such as wanting to prove something.

      I think you take me wrong, VP. I'm not here to start fights. I have no axe to grind. I have no vendetta. I want to give you the clarification you asked for. That's what I'm doing.

      Can you answer this one plain question for me:  Do all actions require some degree of motivation (excluding involuntary actions)? Are there any voluntary actions that can be executed with absolutely zero desire and motivation?

      Actually that's sortof two questions.
      But anyway, can you think about it and answer it?

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      What maeestrowhit says ir correct-Your wants and desires are involuntary.
      You come form God and are here because you manifested yoursef and this universe in order to fullfill your desires which is Gods desires.When you have no more desires you will go back home to God. smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        My wants and desires are not involuntary whatsoever. I think is is weak and even scary to believe that. I totally control my wants and desires. I have to or my behavior would be pure chaos. Anything less is just being an animal.

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Where have these desires come from? your soul.You are here on this planet for a purpose .You are simply burning out your desires or rather your soul is. smile

    3. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Peace bro-we are just having an intelligent debate here. smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Peace is exactly what we have. I think you are a good man with fine debate skills. You are not intentionally making others mad. People who do get my replies in kind. We just disagree so far, it seems. It will be interesting to see where this will lead. thank you!

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you too. smile

  16. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "My point is you cannot want what you want to want. Your wants and desires are involuntary. Can you show me how they aren't?"
    Smoking my morning cigarette I agree is pretty much involuntary. But writing this, I suggest is a an act of pure free will.
    Certainty does make choosing easy, if a forgone conclusion.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I think there free will booby trap is that they had the free will to accept or not accept what the Bible says about God.  Thus they have given up thier free will as they had chosen to surrender it to God. 

      No wait,  because they have free will they freely willed to accept the Bible as true therefore they have no will to stop the revelations propechy...

      no wait...oh forget it.  You either do something or you don't, free will or not.  I think sticking to the "now" theory is much better then debating the concept. 

      Though I still find that maestro's arguement makes more sence.  smile

      Smoking my morning cigarette was involuntary...loved it!!!!

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I want to clarify that I'm NOT stating my non-free-will view point as a basis for validating the Bible or any other persuasion. I did, however, use the Bible as a tool to help underline my view point. But I did not come to my state of perception through interpretation of the scriptures. It's the other way around. I came to my interpretation of the scriptures through my natural state of perception. I happen to have grown into a state where the illusion of free will is very obvious to me. This wasn't driven or guided by any external influence; it came about the same way adult teeth come about to replace primary teeth - from within me. It's through this perception that I can look at the accounts of Jesus' words and know what they really mean. And as it turns out, they mean something much different than what seems to be the popular consensus; a consensus which has caused so much bitterness in people like yourself who think logically. I am also bitter towards the illogical, ridiculous popular interpretation of the Bible. And there is nothing immoral, or wrong, or incorrect about not agreeing with it or following along.

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          let's just say that comment wasn't meant for you....smile  smile smile

    2. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by this statement?

  17. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "Are there any voluntary actions that can be executed with absolutely zero desire and motivation?" I'll go along with that.

  18. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    maestrowhit answer me this:

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I'd have to say yes and no. Maybe. Perhaps, but not really. Possibly, but not probably. Definitely not, but certainly so.

      good sense of humor! thanks for lightening it up a little

  19. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit;

    You really need to go back to your earlier comments on this very thread. I was just relating to those comments. I said at the time I was shocked at that, but then it is behind us, OK?

    You interject (or have interjected) motivation into the free will loop. Motivation (the reason for my thoughts, words or actions) is really irrelevent to free will. Regardless of why I decide to do something, I still decide. That is what free will is. Whether or not I am motivated, I choose or I do not choose. I choose, so I have 100% free will.

    In answer to your question, though, the one thing that is in fact involuntary (that I was waiting for someone to mention) is dreams. However, I am not performing actions while I am asleep, so I disregard that as a part of any logical discussion on free will. Other than that, I hope that my actions are based on some motivations. Yet, I am sure with all the things I do each day, some are done on reactions, not motivations. It does not matter to free will, though, I still can choose what to do in any situation.

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You're right. Dreams aren't something you do, but something that happens to you.

      This is a vague answer (no offense, please). Instead of a yes or no answer, you say "I hope"  Can you give a yes or no answer? It's alright if you can't. There's no shame in that. This is a tedious subject. Again, please don't take me the wrong way. It's just a question.

      So, how about it? yes or no?

  20. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    I don't think you can discard motivation when it comes to free will.

    This is the illusion. You may think you have free will, and are completely free to decide what ever you like, but if you discard the motivation behind the decision making process, you are not making a decision based on free will, you are merely doing as your motivations tell you.

    The choice (or free will) comes when you examine and understand your motivations. Once you understand these, then you are making a decision based on free will.

    1. viralprospector profile image61
      viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mark;

      In fairness that is just talking in a circle. Let me paraphrase your post as it relates to me.

      I have examined my motivations, and I understand them fully.So, I have no illusion. I can ignore my motivations or not. That is still 100% free will. Again, the motivations are an interesting and related aside to the issue, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with free will.

      If I did not have free will, I would be doing things out of my control. That never happens to me. Again, I think it is unfortunate that others are out of control and in the control of something, whatever it is. It just sounds like drugs to me, frankly...

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I never said you did not have free will. I said the free will comes into the equation by the examination of and understanding of your motivations.

        You are apparently a perfect person, in that you always examine your motivations and never make a decision based on those motivations without a full examination and understanding of them. Then you decide what to do based on that examination. This would seem to be all but impossible in that it requires one to completely let go of all earthly considerations and ego. So, I congratulate you on your perfection.

        Most do not. Which is not exercising free will, it is merely bowing to those motivations. Which could well come from external sources. Here is the illusion. Many think they are acting under their own free will because they do not understand the motivations that cause them to make a decision. Therefore they believe they have free will, but do not.

        But, taking motivations out of the equation is not practical. Let us say that you have chosen to believe in an all-powerful god. You choose to believe that this god will decide, on your death, whether or not to send you to hell to burn for all eternity or accept you into heaven.

        Knowing and believing this, how can you say that all your decisions are not in some way colored by this? Thus, when you decide something, are you not always asking yourself, "Is this OK with god?"

        In which case, your motivations must surely preclude the possibility of free will. Sure, you have the free will to choose not to do something your god will consider a sin and burn you for all eternity, but how much free will can you have with this threat hanging over you?

        I can do what god wants, or I can do what I want and burn in hell for all eternity.

        Motivation.

        1. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          You're speaking my language here. WIth a view of existence that includes ultimate eternal punishment or rewards at the event of death, every single thing done is strongly motivated by the question of whether the deed is right or wrong- approved or punishable.

          I must bring one thing up to you though, and it is at the risk of redundancy, but I feel it should be acknowledged. You're not one of these who cannot bear to listen to logic and reason, so I don't feel this will be futile.

          You describe a state of being that is achieved by examining and understanding all personal motivations, and then stepping back to an objective position. According to you, that is the only state where true free will exists, and anything short of that would be some degree of blindly following uncontrolled motivations. Once in this objective state, clear free decisions can be made about what to do with said motivations.

          The obvious problem here, from where I'm standing, is that even that decision making process, while in the achieved objective state, is conducted out of motivation.

          Once you get to the point of understanding and knowing every possible motivation in you, what then will you want to do? Well, it depends on the individual and the situation, but what holds constant still, no matter what or who, is that whatever is done at that point will be based on whatever the doer desires to do. You won't likely get to that state of being and then do something that you absolutely do not want to do. Yes, it is definitely a deeper, more controlled, more aware and informed motivation, but it is still just that - a motivation. Because without it, you couldn't do anything at all.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I did not say personal motivations. I said motivations.

            But, I was actually questioning the concept of free will and the illusion one has that we actually do have free will.

            I think if one can genuinely understand one's motivations, they then cease to be motivations. smile

            1. maestrowhit profile image62
              maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I actually think you're on to something. Cool.

  21. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit;

    No, all my actions are not based on motivations all the time. They should be (or should be closer), but I am not perfect. Again, it doesn't matter to the concept of 100% free will. I just have the free will to screw up and do things that I am not motivated to do, but do in reaction or whatever.

    So, I am back at my first post which is that I have 100% free will, and God knew everything I would choose before He created the world.

    Make sense?

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, since you asked - no. This doesn't make sense.

      You make a distinction between an act of motivation and a reaction. There is no difference between the two. Or maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture of what you're saying. If so, lend me a hand.
      When you act upon a motivation, you are essentially REACTING to the motivation. Any reaction that is not motivated is involuntary; like jerking your hand away from a hot flame, or screaming when something startles the hell out of you. Would you say this isn't so? Can you explain why?

      Also, I'd like to hear your explanation of how you can do something you are not the least bit motivated to do.


      Also, the fact of God knowing all actions beforehand does more to support the absence of free will that the presence of it.

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Maestrowhit;

        What I am trying to convey is that there are levels of action. the highest level of action is that which is carefully planned and executed according to the highest level of human good (albeit that everyone would argue what is the highest level. Of course for me it is helping others as Jesus helped others). That is what I am referring to as motivation. I have the free will to choose to do the work to set up the action, and I have the free will to follow through on my plans.

        The lowest level of human behavior is the opposite which is to carefully plan and execute to hurt others. Hubpages actually brings out that behavior in many people on the forums. It occurs because the man who I think is the forum leader actually comes on hubpages to purposely antagonize others. That is what he has written. That is the lowest form of human behavior, and many admire and follow his BS. I think he is revolting for that. He is well aware of that all. I have experessed that to him directly, so I am not talking behind his back. Having participated all over the web, I am certain that he single handedly ruins the hubpages forums. This is a confusing area, though, since actions do require an equal and opposite reaction from time to time. I have the free will to not only avoid this disgusting behavior, but also to call out those who do. I am far far too accepting, though. I should be much more clear in my disgust, and that does not apply to you.

        In between is something I call autopilot. I try to avoid that, too. It is just doing things without planning or thinking about them. I have the free will to change this time wasted to more planning and proper execution or to move to the lowest form of behavior.

        Again, I have total free will. While three categories is an oversimplification, I am certain you can envision how everything we do has some relative position on this scale. Still, it is 100% my choice.

        As to God knowing all, it is really a separate issue. I think you can best understand my point by entirely separating his omniscience from our free will. Both are just facts, but there is no reason to combine them until each fact is comprehended fully by itself.

        I think that God's omniscience is a common sense fact. I think that the universe is far too complex to be an accident. Heck, we cannot even agree over free will and God's omniscience. I care to think we have a relatively decent amount of intelligence. How could man possibly put all this together and keep it together without a divine assistance? That is just your free will that concerns me - in your case. I think personally that you will soon realize His presence and tap fully into it. That is not meant in any other than as a sincere compliment to you.

        Does that help clear it up?

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      So, I am back at my first post which is that I have 100% free will, and God knew everything I would choose before He created the world.
      Doesnt this become following your destiny smile Or rather everything has been destined and we are just carrying it out . smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mohitmisra;

        I see what yoiu are saying, but I do not agree. It is easiest to separate free will from God's omniscience for a moment to see this. I asked earlies for anyone to show me one itme of executing my free will that I cannot control. No one can do it. Therefore I have free will 100%. Just deal with that first. If you think I do not have total free will, then prove that wrong.

        As a separate issue, God is ominscient in my belief in faith in God. That is just merely a choice, albeit free will to choose. Yes, that is truly the ultimate free will decision. that is why I combined them originally in my post here. God knowing what I will choose just shows his mighty power. However, I still get to make the choices. I just choose to do as He wants, but many on hubpages do not.

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I would break this deabte down to two points.

          1- "I" as Mohit an individual have free will.Like the poet Iqbal said-one must merge ones will with the cosmic will.
          2-  I am a part of this universe or God which has,is and will allways be in perfection.Meaning I have allways been in perfection.Destined. smile My free will or choices I made had been destined. smile

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            That is pretty much what I believe. I do not believe I have always been in perfection, though. I believe I have pretty much and always will be in sin. Only God, Jesus Christ, was a perfect man. That is probably the only difference there.

  22. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    "I can do what god wants, or I can do what I want and burn in hell for all eternity."

    Think that over, Mark.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      I already did - You know the conclusion I have come to.

      Just ask yourself -

      Does that make any sense? lol

      And it would seem that lots of people have a different idea of what god wants.

      So, when some one tells me they know what god wants, and I should do it or burn in hell, I question their motivations. Especially when they say something like this.

      Think that over, vp.

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I know God personally, Mark, and I assure you - you are not going to hell. You're ok with him. People who believe in hell are already there. What can anyone do to bring them out? Words surely don't work.

        1. viralprospector profile image61
          viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this
          1. maestrowhit profile image62
            maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I spread positivity; you spread negativity. I tell people good news; you tell them bad news. I tell people they need not fear; you tell them to be very afraid.

            Sorry man, but the spirit you project is not the spirit of God. I know this because I know Him very well. I feel sorry for you.

            My gratitude goes to you for no longer polluting this forum

            1. viralprospector profile image61
              viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Salvation is mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times. I know exactly what the Bible says, and you lie about what it says. No one should believe one word of your lies about salvation.  The door is narrow, and many who cry out for salvation will not receive it. You lead people to hell only. I do not say this with malice, but perhapsyou are just ignorant of the Word of God. Please, everyone who reads this, believe that Meastrowhit lies about salvation. You may do it innocently, Maestrowhit, but you still do it. It is my responsibility to warn anyone who reads any word that you write. You can insult me by saying I pollute the forum whenever you want. If that is your choice to do, then consider it that you pay me the greatest compliment, that of defending the Word of God against your lies. Thank you, my friend. I look forward to showing you and everyone else that you lie, totally lie. You quit polluting the sacred Word of God. I will defend it!

              1. maestrowhit profile image62
                maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                If I'm telling lies with my positive message, and you're telling the truth with your negative message, why can you not back up what you say with scripture? You have yet to include one passage of the Word of God. All of your words are the words of VP! Anyone looking in on this discussion can see that you are angry, indignant, aggresive, hositile. That is not the spirit of God. God is a spirit of love and peace and patience. Do you really expect people to listen to you when you sound like that and don't offer any scriptural proof?

                You know, I'm honestly glad I'm talking to you online and not in person. You're being hostile. That is exactly what happened to Jesus. People didn't want to hear the powerful truth He spoke. It angered them, but they couldn't refute it - so they killed him.

                So, show me how I'm lying, go ahead. I challenge you.

                1. viralprospector profile image61
                  viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Maestrowhit;

                  You can call me Ray or you can call me Jay. I do not care. If you insult me, that makes it a compliment. I am far froim angry. I have you right where I want you. Are you too big a coward to call my "bluff." I stated the terms. Do you have the guts tolay it on the line for your credibility on this forum? If not, I understand. Just quit taking shots at someone who you cannot properly assess. You will end up in this very unpleasna situation over again.

                  My offer stands. Will you publically acknowledge that you will follow Jesus if I can prove that only Jesus saves, and only those who believe in Him are saved. Maybe I am bluffing. Will you also resign and never return to this forum if I am right and you are wrong. I am willing to do the same if I cannot produce a dozen scriptures to prove me right and you wrong.

                  Where is the anger now, Maestrowhit? You have repeatedly insulted and belittled me for countless posts. Why will you not prove once and for all who is the fool?

                  1. maestrowhit profile image62
                    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    You insult yourself, VP. You just don't see it.

                    I'm not going to leave the forum. That's rediculous. I already believe in Jesus

              2. secondsamuel profile image62
                secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you VP and I'm behind you all the way. To God be the glory. big_smile

                1. secondsamuel profile image62
                  secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh and I will take up where you left off. You see maestro is my son and he knows better he just likes all of the attention this is bringing him big_smile

                  1. maestrowhit profile image62
                    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Since you've gone and made this personal, dad, let them know who you really are.

                    My father, secondsamuel, who is the person who originally invited me to Hubpages, just disowned me today because of what I've written in this forum. He sent me an email telling me that he wants nothing more to do with me. I no longer have the pleasure of a relationship with my father now.

          2. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            To be saved, belief in Jesus Christ as the savior is essential.The Christian faith-The Holy Bible
            Krishna is the highest God,throught him is liberation-The Hindu faith-The Holy Bhagwat Gita
            The Muslims believe in Allah as the saviour.

            All are correct,but if you believe only one is correct then that is ego or attachment to your religion.All paths lead to God.I was an atheist when I got enlightened or merged with God.So I attained salvation without believing in any of the above mentioned prophets or religions.

            1. viralprospector profile image61
              viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Mohitmisra;

              While I do not believe as you, you are certainly a good man. I admire your ways. Still, no Christian can agree that God is the same to all religions. Perhaps that is unfortunate, and it is no insult against another religon, but the Bible does not leave it open for two interpretations.

              That is no reason why we cannot be friends and produce good works. That is truly the part of religion that is hardest for me is that others are not a part of it. However, I do not deny someone else the right to their beliefs.

              I do not know what you believe, but you seem very happy with your beliefs. We will see where that leads us and hopefully that is to the same ultimate place by whatever means is necessary.

              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I believe you are a good man yourself and if  Jesus is your personal saviour so be it smile

        2. secondsamuel profile image62
          secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          This is absolute HERESY , may God have mercy on your soul.

      2. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That is too funny. I just copied and pasted your quote. So it is you that did the "Especially when they say something like this." I just think that you should reconsider Christianity, and I think you should reconsider your entire life. I am entitled to my opinion.

        Actually, God does want other Christians only to do different things. Step one is to accept the Word of God, new and old testament. That includes acknowledgement of Jesus as God in the flesh. Then, the Holy Spirit uses the unique gifts and experiences of believers in unique ways.

        However, the Holy Spirit is not a factor for unbelievers. So, unbelievers have a simple task in Christianity to accept the Word.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          And what exactly gives you the right to have an opinion on what I should or should not do?

          I must admit to finding some one who believes in a talking snake pretty funny too. lol

          As far as you are concerned, I have complete free will to make my own decisions.

          I do see this a lot from people such as yourself. They seem to know what god's word is and will even go as far as to try and have laws enacted to enforce this word, whilst at the same time bleating about how bad the government is at educating their children.

          I mean, I think you should give up your laughable beliefs and spend some energy making the world we live in a better place instead, but I am pretty sure that is not going to happen, so I have never bothered to tell you.

          But this is where I start to question people's motivations. And whether or not they have any free will.

          We have interacted before and both times we did, the thread ended up being closed by an admin because you were making personal attacks on me.

          Thus, I doubt that you are telling me this for my own good, but instead some other personal goal.

          And as you have already stated that you have 100% control over your wishes and desires, I am interested to know why you choose to tell me I will burn in hell, and why you have chosen, in the past, to make verbal attacks on me.

          Is this god's will and you are merely following instructions, or are you choosing to follow some other 100% controlled motivation?

          And if the latter, what is that motivation?

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Mark;

            You have publically admitted that you come here to purposely antagonize other people. Knowing that, discussion with you is futile and leads to evil conclusions. Also, I want everyone to know that you and I are total opposites. I believe that people should help others, and that is my intent. That is what Jesus did with much of His time. You just hurt other people by antagonizing them, so I despise that about you. I see no change of behavior. So I suspect all your writing as just an effort to hurt others.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Can't answer the question, boy?

              Why have you entered into a discussion with me then? You could simply have ignored what I said.

              I come here for many reasons, one of which is to learn about how people with strong beliefs react under the stress of difficult-to-answer questions. I have not publicly admitted that I come here to purposely antagonize people. I may have said that I learn from people's reactions when they are under the stress of a losing argument, but that is all.

              1. viralprospector profile image61
                viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                If you ever win your first argument, then we will know...

          2. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            The intelligent one sees this dimension as full of pain.I was an atheist and understand where you are coming from but this spiritual stuff and God is all very true. smile I thought all this was big joke and a myth but now I know it is not.When you die-that moment think of the light or me will gladly help. smile

  23. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    Free will doesn't have to be in the Bible to prove it exists, although it probably is somewhere.  It's just common knowledge that it does exist.  Free will is not a belief system in itself like having the belief in God or having a belief in evolution.  We can choose to believe that God exists or not, that's it.  The same way we can choose to believe that evolution exists or not and that's it.

    Put another way free will could be compared to an adjective, where God would be the noun. 

    Free will is an action taken, where God is the object of that action.

    I didn't read this whole thread so this may have already been said.  Just replying to the first post.

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus knew his destiny was to be crucifed and he accepted it.
      Free will is an action taken, where God is the object of that action.Perfect smile

  24. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Boy? lol

  25. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Mark;

    You lie when you say, "I have not publicly admitted that I come here to purposely antagonize people." I can't stand liars either. However, for someone who publically stated that he comes here to intentionally antagonize people, I am not surprised one bit.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      vd - The great thing about these forums is that they are public, open and available for all to read. It is also not possible to edit your comments after a certain amount of time. One hour I think, but I may be wrong. Please feel free to quote me and link to where I said I come here to do this.

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, I REALLY appreciate your involvement in this forum. It's a relief when I see you've posted.

        GO Sanity!

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          Oh, I will argue with this guy until the thread gets shut smile

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            As long as I am calling you on all your lies Mark, show me where any thread was closed by my comments. That is what you claimed a few posts ago, right, Mark? Or is that just another lie? Of course it is.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this
              1. viralprospector profile image61
                viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Mark;

                You are the master of covering up all the evidence, huh? I see how fast you can find that thread.By the way, thank you for posting it since it proves that you are an outright liar. Nowhere in Maggie's comment does it say who got it shut down. Too bad that you did not read it first, Mark. Oh by the way, you said it was two threads. Post the other.

                By the way, you have deleted your comment but several others posts are left with comments about it. I think it was Mohimistra. It listed your direct quote, which your reply was a denial. Good job, Mark. Too bad that I know you lied. You did say that you purposely antagonize others here. You can do the side shuffle or whatever. You will always remain a liar about it if you say you did not write it. God is my witness. That is fine with me.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Yup. You are a genuine christian all right.

                  I have deleted nothing. Just because a christian says it was there and is now mysteriously gone, does not make it so. And you wonder why I do not believe in god? Thank you for showing me the way smile

                  Seriously, I appreciate it. Without people like you, I may have gone on blindly believing. Thank you so much.

                  ciao

                  1. viralprospector profile image61
                    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    You cannot change the truth, just lie about it after covering it up. If you want to blame your disbelief on the fact that I know you lie, then go ahead. It is typically ridiculous, but I sure don't care. I know that you purposely antagonize people here, so you won't get me to concern myself with such an evil person. If you discover regard for other humans, then maybe you can then advance further to be a Christian - lol.

                  2. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Spiritual experiences are just too personal,understand that Mark.

                2. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Once I think he called himself stupid to which I simply agreed so he complained to the admin and got it removed .Then he writes how the admin is removing my stuff ha.I think the admin are decent people.smile

      2. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, busted!

        It was actually knowlyourself that took to the comment. Here is the direcvt quote you made:

        "As you may have noticed, one of the ways I do this is to antagonize people and see what their reaction is."

        My, my, Mark of the weak cover up... I guess you forgot to check it out with Knowlyourself first. That is sickening, Mark. what a puny excuse for a human to try to lie and cover up such a simple little statement. Allyou had to do was to admit it was out of hand. Unbelievable...

  26. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Mark;

    Oh I see that that ridiculous statement was a question. "does that make any sense?" You question whether I can answer that... Feel that heat, Mark. Get used to it.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Not feeling any heat just yet. Rather cool actually.

      Does it make sense that the world was created by a jealous and angry god (an omnipotent god who knows everything we are going to do before we do it) even though we have total free will as long as we don't mind being burned in hell for all eternity if we choose to exercise that free will -  and viralprospector becomes "Furious" when some one interprets His words differently and vp knows what this god wants, and I should listen to him? Hmmmmm

      Not making any sense just yet. Especially when I have read the same book you have and did not read that at all.

      But feel free to answer any of the questions I have already asked of you......

      Yes - this sign - ? - means it is a question.

      1. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Day to dawn makes no sense,
        What does we call non sense. smile

  27. maestrowhit profile image62
    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago
    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That is fantastic, the other part about your dad, that is sad. 

      Dear Second Samuel,
      We have had conversation with each other at another time, I asked you if you would still accept me and love me no matter what I say or write, you answered yes. 

      I used your name in the atheist rules thread as one of the Christians I adored, yet I have to say that this cannot be true.  If you cannot accept your own and love your own without conditions as you would do for a stranger.  I don't believe you know God.  I am feel sorry for you.

      Meastro, keep doing what you are doing.  smile  Where someone doesn't love, you know that someone else does.  smile

      1. secondsamuel profile image62
        secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sandra please read very carefully, I love my son (maestrowhit) unconditionally and whether you believe it or not, that is the reason I am doing what I am doing. Just like with everything else maestrowhit has a way of distorting the truth. I know this young man, and I know what makes him tick, after all he is my son. He is not your son. I guess you could call this an act of tough love. It matters not to me what anyone calls it. It is an act of unconditional love. do you have children. If you do would you not then try to steer them away from harm? And by the way, I have not disowned my son and I never would.big_smile

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Yes I do have a child and I love her no matter what and without conditions and one thing that I believe is absolutely neccessary is to let her go her own way. 

          What is tuffer, restricting her beliefs and keeping her "sheltered" or to allow her to find out for herself? 

          Your son is not in any immediate danger from following his heart, all is forgiven for the honest seeker through Jesus Christ, so your tuff love is an act of selfishness. 

          I am really sorry to put it to you this way, but how else can a person really understand anything unless you let them go and understand it for themselves.  He may or may not believe what you believe but at least there is a 50/50 chance in favor that he will come to understand you in his own way. 

          Which is better than zero chance he would ever come to believe you when pushed accept things just because you said so. 

          I love my daughter no matter what and I would love to "shelter" her forever and ever and keep her a baby too, but I know that I can't and I know that if I pushed her to do anything "I" wanted her to do that it is far more likely that she will hate me because it wasn't what she wanted, it was what " I " wanted for her.

          Of course I don't believe that you don't love your son, what parent does that, maybe a couple of exceptions I am sure, but you have to let your son go.  You have no say in where he will end up after this life on Earth is done. 

          There are no gurantees that if he preached as you do that he would indeed end up in Heaven.  Nothing is guaranteed but at least your son has enough courage to go his own way and believe with reason why he will be forgiven.  smile

          It is tuffer on you then it is on your son.  Have faith and let him go, if Jesus wants him Jesus will find him.  This I know for sure.  smile

          Maybe the challenge isn't for your son SecondSamuel...

          1. secondsamuel profile image62
            secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I knew you wouldn't understand but I love you anyway.smile

        2. secondsamuel profile image62
          secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I think I need to put a phrase that maestro is using into it's proper context [the kingdom of God is at hand] here is the whole verse.

          Mark 1:14-16 (New Living Translation)
          14 Later on, after John was arrested, Jesus went into Galilee, where he preached God’s Good News.[a] 15 “The time promised by God has come at last!” he announced. “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!”

          here is another version with verse 15 from the [New American Standard] bible
          15and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

          maestro forgot to mention the word REPENT , it was probably just a typo

          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Well just to be fair, you son posted "questioning the concept of free will' and second, tell me how credible the bible is if you don't know which verison is true?

            You have here already two examples that read rather differently, why do you trust either of them?  Maybe your son is right to take the message that has not changed from both translation and only use that. 

            Anyways, I will leave you alone, it really is non of my business what goes on between you and your son.  I would just trust him a little more.  smile

          2. maestrowhit profile image62
            maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Romans 2

            1) Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
            2) And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.  3) But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

            4) Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the KINDNESS OF GOD LEADS YOU TO REPENTENCE?
               (caps for emphasis by me)

            We do not repent by our own free will. God leads us to repentance.

            2 Peter 3
            9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not WISHING for any to perish but for ALL to come TO REPENTANCE.

            God desires for everyone to come to repentance. Do you think that God is incapable of accomplishing His goals? No He is not.

            Isaiah 55
            11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
                   It will not return to me empty,
                   but will accomplish what I desire
                   and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

            God does not fail in what He sets out to do. He has brought all people to repentance, just like he wanted to.

            1. secondsamuel profile image62
              secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              not everyone comes to repentance. Yes, God provides a way and He is so patient, some people are saved on their death bed, that's how loving and patient God is. God does not bring us to repentance by some common act of His will. If that were so then we would all be robotic. Yes God desires that we all come to repentance but He does not force us into it. He creates circumstances in our lives that bring us to a point that we see the err of our ways. But it is up to us to change the way we think. It says no where in the bible that God has brought all people to repentance.
              Luke 15:7
                 7 Thus, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one [especially] wicked person who repents changes his mind, abhorring his errors and misdeeds, and determines to enter upon a better course of life) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who have no need of repentance.

              Here is a passage that desputes your claim that God brings all to repentance

                4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

                  5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,

                  6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace

              why would this even be mentioned if God brought all to repentance?

              Romans 3:20
              For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [ not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].

              I have mentioned the Romans 3:20 to point out that there is such a thing as sin. You have proclaimed in you recent emails to me that there is no sin. It doesn't exist. 

              I can say that you have really caused me to go back and really study all the scriptures that I have known for a good part of my life and I thank you for that. I love you maestrowhit and I am going to hang in here until the very spirit of God brings you to repentance.

              I'll be back smile

              1. maestrowhit profile image62
                maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Between you and I, this will go on and on if I let it. It will never end. You ended our relationship as normal human beings today. I have lost interest in this discussion with you. You're waiting for something that has already happened, which you just cannot see. I am one of the good guys, dad.

                1. secondsamuel profile image62
                  secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  no you are a heretic, deciever, and you are not man enough to admit your error. You claim that we have no choice in our destiny and the words of God clearly suggest otherwise. So just for the benefit of those who have been decieved by you, here is another passage for you to distort. If you quit this forum you are a coward

                  Matthew 7:13-14 (Amplified Bible)
                      13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.

                      14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

                  here is another translation
                  (New American Standard Bible)
                  13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
                  14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

                  another translation
                  (New Living Translation)
                  13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it

                  another translation
                  (The Message)
                  13-14 "Don't look for shortcuts to God. The market is flooded with surefire, easygoing formulas for a successful life that can be practiced in your spare time. Don't fall for that stuff, even though crowds of people do. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires total attention.

                  another translation
                  (King James Version)
                  13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

                  14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

                  one more translation
                  13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

                  here before you is 5 different translations that all say the same thing. All 5 versions clearly say that some choose the straight path to life and some choose the highway to destruction, you can draw your own twisted conclusions.

                  I'll be back smile

                  1. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate.
                    This means one pointed concentration and like I mentioned before the cross is like the door.Go easy on your son he seems an earnest seeker to me. smile

        3. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          No, I guess you didn't say the word "disown," but you did say that you can't believe that your seed produced such a monster as me. And you told me you were marking my email as spam so that you wouldn't receive it as regular mail. And you told me to stay home instead of making the 8 hour trip to visit you at Christmas. You told me you don't want to associate with me any more, and that you are ashamed that I am your son.

          This is to show the truth about what transpired between us. To clear it up for those who are interested.

        4. maestrowhit profile image62
          maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          My dad talks about knowing me so well, but the truth is that of my 26 years, I've only spent roughly 4 of them under his care. We didn't get to know each other till I was fifteen years old.

          Dad, I only included this information because you accused me of twisting the truth. You talk as though twisting the truth is my normal behavior. That's called slander, and it is unethical, not to mention un-Christian-like. Not to mention UNTRUE. as a matter of fact, you saying that lie about me is no less that you twisting the truth- the very thing you accused me of.

          1. secondsamuel profile image62
            secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            My accusation of you twisting the truth stands. You say that God has spoken directly to your soul. Well you must not have been listening very well. You have claimed in your hub that we are all going to heaven no matter what because we have no choice in the matter. Let me give you some more words that Jesus spoke and let's see how murky you can make them look.

            John 3
                14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert [on a pole], so must [so it is necessary that] the Son of Man be lifted up [on the cross],

                15 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!

                16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

                17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

                18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

                19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.

            Jesus has split mankind into two categories.....those who believe and those who don't believe. Two different results of one's actions [eternal life or jugement] This scripture speaks for its self. But just to prove that my accusation is justified go ahead and twist this scripture to say what you want it to say. Of course you will probably say that believing or not believing is "works" ..........I don't think so, it is clearly a choice. But go ahead and do what you do best.............oh, and by the way I don't think this is a parrable......lol:)

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              God is the home to every soul,every human and will never be complete untill every human believer or non believer goes back to him.

          2. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I like the way you write and think maestrowhit,looks like you are more evolved than your dad. smile

            1. secondsamuel profile image62
              secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I never did evolve. God created me and He gave me a brain with the ability to discern the spirit of a lie. I resent the fact that you have enabled the heresies of my son and if you agree with every thing he says then you are just as lost as he is. God did not create us to be robots. Instead He gave us a "free will" and a choice and if you have really studied God's word you would see this. Some people look right at black and call it white. That is what is going on here......smile

              1. 0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I believe that your free will has become null and void by accepting only one pricipal because what you all have become by accepting this doctorine as correct.

                It seems to me all you want to hear is you are right.  And meastrowit has already accepted that even he does not have free will because of what he has accepted as truth. 

                What I accept and like about Meastro is that he is telling it like he see's it and not making his own self a liar. 

                Accepting the Bible as the "truth" makes liars out of the people who believe it because you do not have "free will", all you have freely willed is that you have none.

              2. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I prefer the way he writes over the way you do and I agree with his philosophy and not yours.Then in Christianity its called from the darkness to the light-evolution is another name for it. smile If I am a lost enlighhtened poet then believe  me most on this planet are.

                1. Make  Money profile image73
                  Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  No offense Mo but please let it be and don't encourage maestro.  Hinduism is clearly a different belief system than Christianity.  If we mix other belief systems with Christianity then it is no longer Christianity.  If maestro continues to try to find God I'm sure he will find his way, but with other religious beliefs it can get confusing.  There really is just one way with Christianity my friend.  I can see how secondsamuel is very concerned for his son.  No, evolution is clearly not another name for Christianity.  I haven't evolved either.

                  Mike

                  1. secondsamuel profile image62
                    secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you mike, and for the rest of you hubbers in this forum this is to let you know that I am presently getting ready to go to church. I play guitar and sing in the church band. But before I go I would like to publicly apologize to anyone that I have offended. I too am human and a dirty lowdown sinner saved by grace and by my own faith that I have chosen of my own free will to exercise

                    Mark you are right in that you said about us Christians arguing. Yes that is a poor example of Christianity and I apologize for my roll in it

                    And yes the bible says that all Christians should be of one mind, and we should. Unfortunately we are not but I would think it would be safe to say that we all have but one God, one savior, and one Hoy Spirit of which all three are one.

                    I believe that God has this thing we call free will. He created us in his own image according to the scriptures. And that is basically what I base my theory on in that I believe we were created with a free will just like God. But that is just my own belief and it is so because I have the right by my own free will to do so. To God be the glory forever and ever amen.

                  2. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    All religions have the  same basic teachings. smile no offense but maeestrowhit looks like a seeker and then one must look at all the angels hinduism ,Christianity,Islam etc.
                    To believe my religion or master is the best is ego. = I am the best. :)He has my blessings. smile

              3. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this
        5. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          big_smile

      2. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I'm pleased that you found my post fantastic. It is God's truth, spoken to my soul by His spirit.

        And thank you so much for the support and kindness. I love my Dad and I try to make that known to him. I always will love him. But it is hurtful that he doesn't want to have a relationship with me just because we see things from two different angles.

    2. viralprospector profile image61
      viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Maestrowhit;

      OK that is just a different lie. The same challenge holds true. If I cannot prove that statement ("He did it all - the whole job. We don't have to do anything.") biblically incorrect, then I will resign from hubpages. If I can prove you wrong, then you will accept Jesus as your savior and follow him. You will also leave hubpages. I do not care which lie you want me to refute really. You said after all that I was not a good person and don't use the scriptures. You claim that you do. Are you willing to prove the winner of the debate here before everyone? I say that the scriptures prove that you are a liar. What do you say. Certainly you don't want to be shot down by such a bad person as me, do you? Certainly you have enough backbone to stand behind your statements, right?

      Well, I am glad to issue you the challenge again and again.

      1. maestrowhit profile image62
        maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I'm still waiting for the scripture. You still haven't showed me any. Come on with it already.

        And no, I'm not here to play some kind of game where the winner stays and the looser leaves permanently. That is absurd. You're making a fool of yourself by stalling so much. Come on and give me scripture. I have given scripture time and again to back up my views. Now it's your turn.

        And by the way, I've already told you I believe that Jesus is the savior of the world. I believe that, so why do think I haven't accepted Him as savior? Did you not read that post?

  28. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    " "As you may have noticed, one of the ways I do this is to antagonize people and see what their reaction is." "
    Simple psychology. Everyone comes from a different context. For those who talk to everyone, techniques are developed to instantly ascertain a person's level, so that one can communicate or relate to the individual. The use of antagonism may show a side of the person they normally hide.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly. smile

  29. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Well at least put it into context with the rest of the discussion:





    And guess what it tells me about you, boy?

    Now let's talk about the threads that were not closed because of your personal attacks.

    And how about apologizing for accusing me of deleting this, when it is still clearly there for all to read?

    Or do christians not apologize when they accuse someone of something they didn't do?

    1. viralprospector profile image61
      viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mark;

      I see that is is there. However, all it does is make you a liar and proven so. So, I only saw that knowl had it posted. So you did not delete it. You said you never wrote it. You ask me to apologize, no problem. I am sorry that I did not see it on your post. How about you Mark you big liar? Do you want to apologize for lying that you never said you intnetionally antagonize people like I have been saying?

      No, I am sure you proud that you have totally no regard for other people. It is just exactly as I said and you lied in denying.

  30. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Maestrowhit;

    I am also accusing you of twisting the truth, and I have laid out a way for us to resolve it. After all, if you are wrong that Jesus saved everyone, wouldn't you want to apologize to all the people who read lies. Can't you see how dangerous it is for you to play with dynamite like that? You claim that you can predict the salvation of people, and that makes me furious. I know that is a lie. I do not even know you. I cannot think of anything that is worse to do than mislead people like that.

    Are you ready to examine scripture? If so, just accept my challenge intact, and you will find out whether I know scripture. What do you say?

    By the way, your father said he loves you and will always stand by you.

    Let me tell you a story that relates to this situation in my life. You don't have to read it.

    I was a bad kid, but I did not know it. When I say kid I mean 19 - 24. I thought I knew it all. I was a rock concert promoter and made big money. My Father came to see me, and he told me that he and my Mother disowned me. It hit me hard enough to know that i was on the wrong path. I was not sure what to do. I decided to move out of my college town.

    As I was leaving town, I blew a tire, and I had packed my spare at the bottom of the truck. Yes, I was messed up, probably in a worse way than you can imagine. I thought I would just go back to where I had just given away my business to my partners. Then, I remembered to call on Jesus. He said He would always be there for me. I remembered that much.

    Very long story short, He literally sent an angel to fix my tire. Had my Father not laid down the law with me, I would absolutely not be where I am today, and it would be really bad. Some times, Dad has to say tough stuff. I know your Father loves you, and he will be a valuable partner to you in your life.

    Maybe hubpages is the place like I was in that I needed to leave behind to find the real Jesus. I don't know, but I feel that this is an important time for you. I have felt that since your first post here. Maybe you can think it over, I don't know.

    Now, will you take the cahllenge I issued you?

    1. maestrowhit profile image62
      maestrowhitposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      you've lost me "boy." what is your challenge? I thought we already covered that. You may not need to go through with it as I'm growing tired of this forum. It has become unproductive. But one more time - I already told you I believe Jesus is the savior. You don't need to prove it to me. SO what is your challenge?

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        First, you are a boy, emotionally, physically and spiritually. I at least am a man of 55 years old. Say whatever you want about my spiritual and emotional make up. So, as usual you are wrong in your characterization of things.

        You do not believe in Jesus, because you twist and distort His teachings. You lie instead, and you have been properly called to account for your blasphemy of my Holy God. You have done this repeatedly, and several men have tried to peacefully get you to see what a fool you are. Now, much more serious steps have been properly taken.

        You say that Jesus saved everyone, and that is not what the Bible said. You blaspheme the Word of God, and that is a very, very serious sin. You have absolutely no business lying to everyone. The challenge has been clear. If I can prove you wrong, you will get the heck off this forum. You won't though, and your Father already showed you that you are wrong anyway. He and I (and many other Christians) can show you much more about how wrong your personal twisted interpretation of Christianity is. So do whatever you want. I am a lot more tired of you than you are of this. I just have tried to get you to see the truth. Why? Do I have some vested interest in you? Absolutley not. Can't you see who is trying to help you and who is trying to hurt you. No, you can't. Instead you think a proven liar and person who has been proven to have no regard for other people is who you admire and like. Then, have at it. It is you loss.

        I find it revolting that now that you are pinned into a corner, a total loser of all that you have said, you claim you are bored. That is another lie. You are not bored, you are defeated. You have chosen satan, lied to have chosen Jesus, been held accountable, proven a liar and beaten soundly. It is just as it should be for now. You will grow, and the pain will lessen in time. I am confident in your inner good, but your outer evil disgusts me.

  31. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Mohitmisra;

    You said, "Where have these desires come from? your soul.You are here on this planet for a purpose .You are simply burning out your desires or rather your soul is."

    I am not burning out my desires, nor is my soul. You do not know me well, so it is OK for you to speculate about me. If you are happy with it, then I do not disrespect that. I appreciate your sincere desire to help. My advice is to find the truly needy - poor, homeless, abused, ex prisoners, etc. Give them physical comfort. Being very frank, though, I would not encourage you giving spiritual guidance to them, andy more than you would want me to, I suspect.

  32. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Mike;

    I love the passage James 2:14-22 that you included. Many mature Christians do not take that to heart to the full extent. The Bible is not idle chatter, and it is completely 100% correct. Christians do need good works.

    While that passage is just common sense to people working to help others, it is also what Jesus spent a good deal of His time doing. It would also seem intuitive if that is what Jesus did, we should all be doing that.

    Thanks.

  33. maestrowhit profile image62
    maestrowhitposted 8 years ago

    TO EVERYONE -

    I started this forum under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. He lives within me. He guides me, saves me, and gives me peace. I've received a few responses from peaceful, open minded people to whom I am grateful for their courtesey - and God is also grateful. I have also received much antagonism from a few very angry individuals who cannot and will not listen to reason. I do not wish to debate. This was never intended to be an argument, but a pleasant conversational exchange. Some people are apparently blind to that even though I've said it many times. You cannot reason with unreasonable people.

    If anyone would like to contact me personally, feel free to do so. I may check in here from time to time, but I'll not respond to any more of your posts.

    And as a final note to all - God and I are very close, and He tells me, and you, that there is no danger. There is nothing to be afraid of. THe deciever has deceived many, but he is a weakling compared to our good, gracious God. I will continue to spread His true message. And I will continue to squash the message of the deceiver wherever He guides me to do so. Thanks for all your involvement - even you crotchety old closed minded men- and may His spirit administer to you in the same way the He ministers to me.

    BYE BYE

    1. secondsamuel profile image62
      secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      OK Maestrowhit has thrown in the towel. And because he has given you so many misinterpretations of God's word, and because he is my son, I feel obligated to give the truth.
      In "the gospel according to maestro" you don't have to worry about your salvation, you are saved whether you like it or not. You can live any way you want to, you can murder, you can steal, you can cheat on your spouse, you can get checks from the government that you don't deserve, you can lie, you can call God a liar, you can spit in God's face, you can reject God all together, you can commit any multitude of sins that you desire and you never have to change, you never have to confess and ask for forgiveness, it makes no difference because you are allready saved you don't have to worry. That is the gospel according to maestro.

      This is what the bible, the inerrant word of God has to say

      Romans 10 (New Living Translation)
      5 For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8 In fact, it says,
         “The message is very close at hand;
            it is on your lips and in your heart.”[d]

         And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

      14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”

      I realize that many of you probably think that I am a tyrant. But the opposite is true. I love my son and I only want what is the best for him. He is confused but he is also a proud young man. This dialogue between he and I started over 11 years ago. I have always stood my ground because my ground is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. On the other hand maestrowhit has wavered numerous times, too many to count. I have copied many recent emails where he has out right spit in God's face. You may have read one of his recent hubs where he proclaimed to be an athiest and was proud of it. Of course he had to delete that hub, other-wise he wouldn't have been able to make the claims he is now making using the word of God as a tool to proove his argument. When he decided to use the word of God to proove his theory' that is where I drew the line. If he had never used God's word then I would have never entered this forum. I love my son, but I love Jesus Christ more and I will not sit back and allow my own son to make a mockery of the Christian faith.

      I will end this post with a message from Jesus Christ in His own words

      John 3:16
      16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

      18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

      My friends, it is your choice buy an act of your own free will whether or not you accept the free gift of salvation. You are not automatically grandfathered into the kingdom of heaven. The bible makes that very clear. You must choose whom you will serve. Will you serve God or will you serve the devil? Unfortunately there is no in between choice but that is not my fault, I didn't write the book....smile

      1. 0
        jaimelinus0316posted 8 years ago in reply to this

        So in "the gospel according to secondsamuel", Christians should judge the righteous and the unrighteous and discourage those who are seeking and learning.

        Matthew 22:36-40
        "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

        For the definition of neighbor, see Luke 10:29-38.

        Maestrowhit has confessed with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and he believes in his heart. Maestrowhit and I's dialogue started over a year ago, and in that year, his life has done a complete 180. (I hope I'm using the correct phrase here...I try to avoid cliches whenever possible.) Secondsamuel, how much have you interacted with maestrowhit in the past year? How much face-to-face time have you spent with him? I too have spit in God's face, but God always forgives when you repent, and maestrowhit has repented. It is not up to us to slap somebody in the face and force them to see truth. God will reveal everything in His time, not ours.

        Yes, secondsamuel, you didn't write the book...so why do you think that you can claim that you know the true interpretation? No human being is perfect, including you and me and maestrowhit.

        1. secondsamuel profile image62
          secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I see, maestro has to get his wife to finish what he started. You can be mad and you can slander me all you want to. That doesn't change the fact that the statements that maestro made are simply not true. All I'm doing is trying to lead people (including maestro) to the truth. If he has repented then I am glad but I don't believe it because of what he is doing. The bible says that you will know them by there fruit and the only fruit that maestro has produced in this thread is the fruit of confusion which God is not the author of. But I guess you have drank his coolaid and now you are also a desciple of deception. When you tell people that all is well and they don't even have to acknowledge God to enter into his kingdom, well that is a flat out lie and the blood of all the people that he has decieved is on his hands.
          Maestro you are not man enough to come back and finish what you started because you know you can't do it. I don't care about being right or wrong. All I care about is the truth and maestro has not delivered the truth. The truth is right before you in the bible. It says what it says, much of which doesn't even need an interpretation. tongue

          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            but Meastro has encouraged my spirits.  He is producing fruite, why do you call him a liar?

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I am with you here smile

          2. 0
            jaimelinus0316posted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I'm not "finishing" anything, and I'm not mad [anymore]. I am hurt to see the things that you have said to your son. But this isn't about that. I'm not getting personal. (One, I'm not the one who revealed personal connections; and two, I could make it REAL personal if I chose to. But I have free will, so I won't.) This about my response concerning two grown men who have acted like 2 year olds. (And some other users who have displayed their own immaturity as well.) This is my response to a man who has claimed to be a Christian, but who hasn't proved himself to be a true Christian (according to the Bible, not according to any interpretation). I haven't slandered you, secondsamuel. You have managed to show yourself as a jerk perfectly fine on your own.

            The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Galatians 5:14-15

            See 1 Corinthians 13 for the definition of love. I myself believe in both free will and predestination (to get back to the subject of this forum). I chose to pursue peace and love, not hatred and division. I have already asked God for forgiveness for getting angry. It's a demon that I'm constantly turning over to God. (There's nothing wrong with admitting mistakes.)

            But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galatians 5:22-26

            Secondsamuel, what fruit do you feel you're producing in this forum? (And you too viralprospector). I'm not a "disciple of deception". Once again, you're making a snap judgement. You don't know my heart - only God knows my heart. I've been a Christian for quite a few years now, and that hasn't changed.

            What you label as "fruit of confusion" is likely the confusion that maestrowhit has felt for years because of the witness of improper Christians. Those improper Christians are the authors of his confusion. It's only through God that he has reached the clarity that he is at. (And God will continue to be that author.) Yes, you must acknowledge God - I agree on that. (Why did you assume that I didn't agree?) And if you believe that the Bible speaks truth on its own, then why try to force it? Truth will come out without your help.

            Maestrowhit is man enough to humbly bow out and continue on his journey.

            "I don't care about being right or wrong." - Ha ha, really? I'm sorry, that was rude of me to laugh, but really...is that statement true? I admit that I have said that before myself in the past, and it definitely wasn't true.

            1. secondsamuel profile image62
              secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              OK, Jaimelinus, you have got my attention. I appologize for acting like a complete jerk. I'm sorry that I insinuated that you were a "desciple of desception" It's just that maestrowhit put himself on the throne as if he were God and told a professed athiest not to worry he is not going to hell. Maestro is not God and he was completely out of line when he made that statement. Maestro does not realize that just because he is a born-again CHristian that satan can still use him and me too to bring about devision. Devide and conquer, that is an essential factor when at war and satan is certainly at war with the saints and their creator. I really don't care about being right or wrong, seriously I don't.  but if I am right then at least have the courtesy to acknowledge that.
              I have been wrong in the way that I have handled this whole thing. I should have been a little more stealthy about it and subtle but I am not good at that. When I see wrong I like to jump right in and try to right the wrong. I believe that you are a true child of God and I appreciate the patience you have had with maestrowhit. I really had no problem until he did that one thing. At first I was just going to stay out of the forum and let the other devout Christians handle it, but maestro stepped over the line when he put himself on the throne.

              Matthew 10:33
              But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.

              Thank you for stepping in and especially for comming back to cool my nerves. My god bless you..................SS wink

          3. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Correct interpretatation of any holy book is vital.
            He is giving you respect on a public forum and you just do not understand.

            The seeds in the garden some day mus grow,
            Everything is allright is what you need to know. smile

      2. Make  Money profile image73
        Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        God bless you secondsamuel.  You are a good man.  I came to this thread late without reading all the posts.  I just realized that you and maestrowhit are father and son.

        maestrowhit I'll pray that there can be reconciliation between you and your father.  He clearly shows that he loves you.  I also say in peace that I'll pray that there can be reconciliation between you and God as well my friend.

        The idea of predestination started in Scotland by John Knox's Presbyterian reformation during the 16th century, or at least that's when it took hold.  Since then a lot have fallen away from the idea of predestination but it is still around. 

        I don't say this to offend anyone but remind that we, as Christians are to be as one in the Body of Christ as mentioned in Romans 12:4, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 12:20, Ephesians 2:16, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 3:15 and other verses.  I particularly like 1 Corinthians 10:17.

        Now if you don't mind maestrowhit or anyone that is willing to read this I would like to relay some facts about the history of Scotland that very few realize.  Again please understand this is not meant to offend anyone.

        First I'd like to say that the Catholic faith was outlawed in Great Britain during the time of Queen Elizabeth 1 in the 1500s.  That was the reason why the English translation of the Douay-Rheims Bible was written.  The New Testament was published in Rheims, France in 1582 while the Old Testament was published at Douay, France in 1609.  The English translation of the Douay-Rheims Bible was published in France to be used in Great Britain where the Catholic faith was outlawed.  During the early part of the 1600s and then later with different monarchs things change a bit but the Catholic faith was basically outlawed in Great Britain until around 1800.

        From the time of King James 1 of England, in 1603 the monarchs of England and Scotland were the same but the Act of Union joining the two countries didn't happen until 1707.   King James 1 of England was King James 6 of Scotland.  Most of the Scottish highland clans were still speaking Gaelic and practicing their Catholic faith up until the time that King James 2 was deposed in 1688.  This is what happened in the Scottish Highlands and Islands next,



        No wonder there was a rising in both 1715 and 1745 seeing there was constant political pressure, to destroy their language and especially their religion.  Maybe one day someone from the Scottish Historical society will have the courage to publish the minutes of the SSPCK.  The above quotes were taken from a web site that is no longer online.

        The 1745 rising ended with defeat at the battle of Culloden on April 16, 1746.  What commenced was the total destruction of Scottish Highland culture.  Prior to this the whole clan owned the land that they lived on, similar to the natives of North America and other traditional cultures.  But the clan chiefs got swindled out of or sold the lands, even though they did not have the right to get swindled or sell the land.  Next came a period in Scottish history called the Highland Clearances.  Both people of Celtic and Germanic origin in Scotland at this time suffered from the Highland Clearances.  They got the name of Crofters and were relegated to the shores to eat kelp while their land was turned into sheep walks.  Next came forced migration.  My ancestral clan migrated in four different groups, between 1773 and about 1810.  Each group was worse off than the ones before, the later being already forced into converting to Presbyterianism.  Now about 90 percent of the County of Inverness, the largest county in Scotland is owned by just 7 or 8 people.  Some scholars write that what happened in Scotland was the model that was used against the natives of North America and other traditional cultures around the world. 

        About a year ago I was to another forum that asked "Is Scotland Germanic?"  Even though the Celtic world and the Germanic world didn't even come into contact with each other until about 250 BC.  Yes, most of what is now called the country of Germany used to be Celtic land.  It's to sad for some people with Highland routes to even visit Scotland these days.  Most wouldn't have any relatives there now anyways.

        But in the new world the descendants of these same people, whether they be Germanic or Celtic or mixed have gone on to prosper.  And to continue to live a Christian life.

        What can we learned from my (long and possibly boring) rant? smile

        Well the main point was meant to be that we are still suppose to be one body in Jesus Christ.  Whether the different denominations can reconcile or not.

        But I also remember reading the web site about the minutes of the SSPCK, from the quote above, that it was first being forced on the Highland children in schools.  So that makes me think that we should pay attention to what our children are being taught in school.  Particularly what comes to mind is whether the theory of evolution should be taught in schools.  Let's face it, it is just a theory, it has not been proven.  From this dictionary the definition of theory is,


        I see our resident atheists are still trying to cause anarchy no matter what the situation.

        I like the fact that it is "raining cats and dogs".  Keep it up my friends. smile

        Mike

      3. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        There are three philosophies for salvation or enlightenment.
        1-its totally up to the cosmos or God
        2-its totally up to you
        3-its a two way story
        All three are correct depending on the "I"
        So Maestrowhit is also corrcet in what he says.All wil go back home to the source the light-God.Its a question of time. smile

        1. viralprospector profile image61
          viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Mohitmisra;

          I think you are a great guy with great intuition and common sense. I cannot express how much I wish you were really well versed in the Bible. I will not carry that too far, as it may appear my motivation in this post is to convert you. That is not the purpose of this post.

          Rather, I want to express to you that it is hard for you to impart your wisdom to Second Samuel in the context of Christianity without knowing Christianity. I completely agree with everything Second Samuel has done. It is my only purpose in taking the heat. I wanted this to play out between Second Samuel and Maestrowhit. I did not want heat going anywhere but to me. I appreciate you being my one and only defender here. Thank you.

          Christians' view of salvation is not the same as yours. A Christian believes that salvation is achieved under a very strict set of guidelines. There are very many things that have to be done to be one of the few chosen by Jesus to be saved. For example, liars will burn in hell forever. That is why I will not have anything to do with purposeful liars and their fake Christian defenders. Cowards will go to hell. Second Samuel knows that Maestrowhit's salvation is more important than the gut wrenching pain that he is and has been enduring. His pain now is excruciating, and nothing could be harder for a Father. Yet, like God let Jesus suffer to His great agony, Second Samuel has chosen the most important thing to do, save his son.

          All people will come to know Jesus and God, as you put that all will return to the light. However, Jesus will judge the many criteria for salvation and decide, so that encourter has the potential to be very painful for some. The Bible seems to indicate that many who think they are saved are in jeopardy.

          This is all said in freindship and as education only, not that I am an authority. This is not said to belittle you or your beliefs. I just thought you may want a little more information on this.

          1. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I have alot of respect for Jesus and Christianity.The second coming of Christ is expected ,he is allready supposed to be here.This is the same for all religions,the Muslims,Hindus and Parsees the Prophet will unite these religions and make man understand that they stand for the same thing-God-the light love-One. smile There are no two Gods or three gods there is only one God and all religons are paths to that same God. smile You will allways see me praise the great Jesus Christ but I will praise all the prophets equally.For me there is absolutely no difference between Jesus or Buddha or Krishna or Mohammed or Gurur Nanak.I love then all smileI have read the Holy Bible,The holy Quran ,The holy Bhagwat Gita ,The holy Guru Granth Sahib.If you also read all you will the same teachings in all of them. smile

      4. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        There are three philosophies for salvation or enlightenment.
        1-its totally up to the cosmos or God
        2-its totally up to you
        3-its a two way story
        All three are correct depending on the "I"
        So Maestrowhit is also correct in what he says.All wil go back home to the source the light-God.Its a question of time. smile

  34. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "YOU ARE A COWARD AND A LIAR"
    I take it the christian family values we so know and love.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Odd, "YOU ARE A COWARD AND A LIAR " seems to have mysteriously disappeared and been replaced with some diatribe about - If you want to murder, lie, get checks from the government etc, what you need to do is say the magic words, "I accept Jesus christ as my personal savior."

      Then you can do as you please......

      Family values indeed....... smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, you are certainly the resident authority on lying. Wait, maybe you did post that second thread that was shut down (or was the two thread shut down thing just a lie?). Wait maybe you really did take back that it was me that shut the first thread down (no, maybe you have figured how to change that thread that said nothing of the sort). Wait, maybe you did not really lie about not saying that you purposely antagonize people here (hmm I guess it was not ever doctored).

        Hey, Mark, that is only three lies on this thread. Yes, we certainly need to see whether the consumate liar is OK with the lying stuff. Wow, that is certainly a typically enlightening post from you, Mark. Thanks so much.

        Hmm, maybe it is good that you have taken on the coward thing, too. You have great potential in that area, too, Mark. Yeah, a coward and a liar has a certain ring to it now that you bring it up, Mark.

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          What is wrong with you VP?  Do you hate Mark that much?  Do you hate atheist that much?  Do you really think atheism is a threat to what you believe?  If it is, then maybe you should reconsider the power of your God.

          1. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            He is being pushed and is defending himself,his religion and there is nothing wrong with that.He has the right to praise Jesus and Christianity and defend it .

        2. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          vd - keep on calling me a liar will not make it so. I am quite happy that any one can read what I said and see that you are twisting it to suit your christian values.

          Let's talk about the closed threads..... smile

          Oh that is right - even though yours were the only comments snipped, it was not your comments that caused them to be closed lol

          Really, I understand why you might be jealous of me but why keep pushing it by calling me a coward. Oh yes, you are just a voice on the internet, and will never likely meet me in person.

          How very brave of you lol

          I don't see that in person nearly as often as I see it online lol

          Brave and christian. lol

          Once again, thank you for validating my decision that christianity is not the way.

          I really appreciate it, boy.

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Indeed your lies are recorded for all. Cojnt them - three lies from mark who says that he never said he intnetionally antagonizes people, but you all have read his post that shows that is exactly what he said. He siad I closed down two threads. No comment was made about me closing the thread. There is no second thread. Three lies, that is all - so far.

            1. 0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              And what if admin had said they were closed due to apperant personal attacks by VP?  yikes

              1. viralprospector profile image61
                viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this
            2. Ben Bush profile image61
              Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              VP,

              I'm going to enter the fray.

              I can't speak about two of the three incidents you are accusing Mark of lying about. But I can speak of one because it was said to me.

              You have accused Mark of being on Hubpages just to antagonize people. He denied that and you have accused him of lying. What he said to me was that he does antagonize people for the purpose of ascertaining what type of person he is dealing with. The responses he receives tell him alot. That is much different than being on Hubpages for the sole purpose of antagonizing people. In fact, his overall presence on Hubpages speaks for itself. So does yours.

  35. viralprospector profile image61
    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago

    Sandra;

    Absolutely brilliant... Abbott and Costello would be so proud. Who's on first?

    "I believe that your free will has become null and void by accepting only one pricipal because what you all have become by accepting this doctorine as correct.

    It seems to me all you want to hear is you are right.  And meastrowit has already accepted that even he does not have free will because of what he has accepted as truth. 

    What I accept and like about Meastro is that he is telling it like he see's it and not making his own self a liar. 

    Accepting the Bible as the "truth" makes liars out of the people who believe it because you do not have "free will", all you have freely willed is that you have none."

  36. Ben Bush profile image61
    Ben Bushposted 8 years ago

    Secondsamuel & Maestrowhit,

    Regardless of your online doctrinal differences, the fact is that you remain Father & Son.

    As such, each of you have certain responsibilities toward on another. These probably need to be addressed privately between you two rather than online. Regardless, here are a couple of reminders:

    Secondsamuel - Remember that you have understanding and experiences as well as reponsibilities that your son may have not contemplated yet. Yes, you very well could be right in all that you address, but you are speaking from a perspective which your son doesn't have. Therefore, the patient and understanding love of a Father is of paramount importance. Don't underestimate the impact of that love. ........Also, don't discount the thoughts and ideas of your son. Remember, you have been in the same position of working through some of these major issues of life that many people never work out for themselves. If you can, attempt to help him address some of these issues, even in the midst of a what appears to be a messy process. You might find that such an understanding response has fruit of its own.

    Maestro - Regardless of the words and/or actions of your father, you are still required to demonstrate honor towards him. This is required even in the face of behavior which you may not condone or vehemently disagree with. God will honor you for it, though. ............And remember, you have never been in the position of a father with a son acting in ways which you believe are detrimental to him. Your understanding of your father's situation is limited, at best. However, your father has been where you have been and has a much greater understanding of what you may be encountering in life than you may give him credit for. Is he perfect? Obviously not, but being mindful of his position and experience might help a great deal.



    The relationship of Father & Son is a relationship of free will. It doesn't just happen and it isn't predestined to happen without input from the minds and hearts of the principles involved. Relationships require work in order to prosper. It only takes one of the principles to destroy the relationship, but it takes both in order to succeed.

    Having 5 sons myself, I only desire the best for both of you.

    1. secondsamuel profile image62
      secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you Ben, I know I may have been a little harsh but some times I feel that it is necessary. This is one of those times. But thank you for careing.

  37. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago

    Youngs Literal Translation:
    John 15
    1`I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman;

    2every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;

    3already ye are clean, because of the word that I have spoken to you;

    4remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

    5`I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;

    6if any one may not remain in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned;

    7if ye may remain in me, and my sayings in you may remain, whatever ye may wish ye shall ask, and it shall be done to you.

    8`In this was my Father glorified, that ye may bear much fruit, and ye shall become my disciples.

    9According as the Father did love me, I also loved you, remain in my love;

    10if my commandments ye may keep, ye shall remain in my love, according as I the commands of my Father have kept, and do remain in His love;

    11these things I have spoken to you, that my joy in you may remain, and your joy may be full.

    12`This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you;

    13greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

    14ye are my friends, if ye may do whatever I command you;

    15no more do I call you servants, because the servant hath not known what his lord doth, and you I have called friends, because all things that I heard from my Father, I did make known to you.

    16`Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.

    17`These things I command you, that ye love one another;

    18if the world doth hate you, ye know that it hath hated me before you;

    19if of the world ye were, the world its own would have been loving, and because of the world ye are not -- but I chose out of the world -- because of this the world hateth you.

    20`Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his lord; if me they did persecute, you also they will persecute; if my word they did keep, yours also they will keep;

    21but all these things will they do to you, because of my name, because they have not known Him who sent me;

    22if I had not come and spoken to them, they were not having sin; but now pretext they have not for their sin.

    23`He who is hating me, doth hate also my Father;

    24if I did not do among them the works that no other hath done, they were not having sin, and now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father;

    25but -- that the word may be fulfilled that was written in their law -- They hated me without a cause.

    26`And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;

    27and ye also do testify, because from the beginning ye are with me.

  38. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago

    Young's Literal Translation:
    John 3
    1And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,

    2this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'

    3Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

    4Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

    5Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

    6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

    8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

    9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'

    10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!

    11`Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;

    12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?

    13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

    14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

    15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

    16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

    17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

    18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

    20for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

    21but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

    22After these things came Jesus and his disciples to the land of Judea, and there he did tarry with them, and was baptizing;

    23and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized --

    24for John was not yet cast into the prison --

    25there arose then a question from the disciples of John with [some] Jews about purifying,

    26and they came unto John, and said to him, `Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou didst testify, lo, this one is baptizing, and all are coming unto him.'

    27John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven;

    28ye yourselves do testify to me that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am having been sent before him;

    29he who is having the bride is bridegroom, and the friend of the bridegroom, who is standing and hearing him, with joy doth rejoice because of the voice of the bridegroom; this, then, my joy hath been fulfilled.

    30`Him it behoveth to increase, and me to become less;

    31he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all.

    32`And what he hath seen and heard this he doth testify, and his testimony none receiveth;

    33he who is receiving his testimony did seal that God is true;

    34for he whom God sent, the sayings of God he speaketh; for not by measure doth God give the Spirit;

    35the Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand;

    36he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

  39. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    It's raining cats and dogs right now.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I know huh, I had to copy it to my clip board.  smile

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      lol   lol   lol

  40. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago

    Young's Literal Translation:
    Mark 1:
    14And after the delivering up of John, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the reign of God,

    15and saying -- `Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.'

  41. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago

    Young's Literal Translation"
    Romans 2
    Romans 2
    1Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man -- every one who is judging -- for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,

    2and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.

    3And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

    4or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? -- not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!

    5but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

    6who shall render to each according to his works;

    7to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;

    8and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,

    9tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;

    10and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

    11For there is no acceptance of faces with God,

    12for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

    13for not the hearers of the law [are] righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --

    14For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law -- to themselves are a law;

    15who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,

    16in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

    17Lo, thou art named a Jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God,

    18and dost know the will, and dost approve the distinctions, being instructed out of the law,

    19and hast confidence that thou thyself art a leader of blind ones, a light of those in darkness,

    20an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of the knowledge and of the truth in the law.

    21Thou, then, who art teaching another, thyself dost thou not teach?

    22thou who art preaching not to steal, dost thou steal? thou who art saying not to commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou who art abhorring the idols, dost thou rob temples?

    23thou who in the law dost boast, through the transgression of the law God dost thou dishonour?

    24for the name of God because of you is evil spoken of among the nations, according as it hath been written.

    25For circumcision, indeed, doth profit, if law thou mayest practise, but if a transgressor of law thou mayest be, thy circumcision hath become uncircumcision.

    26If, therefore the uncircumcision the righteousness of the law may keep, shall not his uncircumcision for circumcision be reckoned?

    27and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

    28For he is not a Jew who is [so] outwardly, neither [is] circumcision that which is outward in flesh;

    29but a Jew [is] he who is [so] inwardly, and circumcision [is] of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.

  42. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Quoth the raven 'evermore'.

  43. 0
    SirDentposted 8 years ago

    It seems to me that this thread has turned into a battle ground. Personal attacks going in different directions. I believe this thread should be closed and each participant step back and breathe.

    1. Ben Bush profile image61
      Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      SIr Dent,
      That would take an act of free will. Of course, that decision could be made for us by the administration. Or has it already been made?

      Ohhhhhhhh, where's Mark when you need him?big_smile:

  44. Lady Guinevere profile image60
    Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago

    Why close it becasue a few are fueding?  The rest of us aren't and maybe, just maybe someone will learn something from all of it, not just the one who are feuding.

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Good point and the admin closes it at the right time every time so let it be smile

      1. Lady Guinevere profile image60
        Lady Guinevereposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Whatever...............................

  45. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Maybe we need a 'Happy Days' forum.

  46. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Not so, Ben can give an opinion without the need for personal attacks.

    1. Ben Bush profile image61
      Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      [




      VP,
      Please don't make it look as if I am not willing to go look up facts. This is different because my knowledge of the facts is first hand knowledge since he made the statement to me personally. When he made the statement, he was telling me something I had already discerned and understood. And that's the truth.smile

      1. viralprospector profile image61
        viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Ben;
        If you are williing to look up the facts, then look them up. You did not look them up, but the information is all on this thread. Yes, we all realize that Mark purposely antagonizes people, but he denied that on this thread. Your post misses the point. He previously wrote that, to you ironically enough. So, I called that a lie, and it is. He said I closed two threads, and that is also two more lies. Look it up or not. Endorse Mark (the ahteist who purposely antagonizes people and lies about it) or not. Side against me (A Christian who is repulsed by antagonizing people and lying) or not.

        1. Ben Bush profile image61
          Ben Bushposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          VP,
          This is the last time I will mention the Truth of the matter and the distinctions you continue to fail to recognize or admit.

          Mark did not deny antagonizing people on Hubpages. He denied that his reason for being on hubpages was to antagonize people.

          If you can't recognize the difference, that's one thing. If you can recognize the difference, but, for some reason, fail to do so, then you are no better than the liars you supposedly identify as headed to hell.

          1. viralprospector profile image61
            viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Ben;

            Call it the last time or not, Mark lied three times, and the truth is right on this thread. As I said, feel free to endorse that, but don't expect that to dissuade me. If you want to question me, go pull up the posts, copy and paste them right here. Then share some real viewpoint, based on facts. It is easy to put up the actual information if you want. It only shows your allegiance, as I said before.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              vd - I apologize. It was only one thread that was shut down because you were making personal attacks:



              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/7419?page=9

              And no, it does not say "This thread shut down because of attacks by vd." But as you are the only one with "snipped personal attack" in your posts, I think we can both agree that you were the reason. I was mixing you up with another "christian" that did the same on this thread:
              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/7385?page=7#post83118

              My mistake.

              Although, I do object to being called a liar over and over. Especially as I pride myself in being as honest as possible. As Ben has already pointed out, what I said was that I do not come to hubpages specifically to antagonize people. And I stand by that. I do antagonize people sometimes in an effort to see deeper into their motivations.

              And as Ben has also pointed out, there are only really two options here.

              Either you are unable to discern the difference, or you can, but choose to continue to pursue this knowing full well that you are mis-representing me.

              I know this is standard practice amongst people like you, but I really think you aught to reconsider this. Not just because I would have thought your god frowned upon this sort of political double-dealing, but as a consideration to others also. I know that as I don't believe in god, I am of no account, but still. I personally don't really care what you think of me. Nor do I care if you manage to persuade a few others that I am a liar and a coward.

              But if you continue to do so, I would think that when the admins see this thread on Monday they will close this one also.

              Then it will be two lol

              A prophecy, no less......

              1. viralprospector profile image61
                viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                OK, Mark, that is good that you acknowldege one lie already. That is progress indeed. I accept your apology. When you apologize for the other two which I just pointed out clearly, I will forgive you for that. Actually, I had forgiven you for all three long ago. I just want everyone to know about you.

                I will make you a deal. You have called me VD about twenty times. Now, that is no personal attack, huh, Mark? Ben, I am sure you endorse that behavior from your atheist pal. So, from here on, I will no longer call you Mark, I will address my writing to you as "Big Liar", OK? After all, you now admit you are a liar. Is that a good solution, Mark? Since it is true, I cannot be accused of personal attacks. It is just truth.

                You always start it. You started it on this thread, and you have started it with me on every other one. I just respond in kind, as always. You admit that you purposely antagonize people, and I despise that. So, I will not let you bully me, and I will not pal up to you ever. I see that Ben does one, and several atheists do the other. It is sickening to me.

                I am willing to end it here, but you absolutely will never desrecpect me without me giving you the harsh replies that I have grown accustomed to needing to give to your nasty comments. If you are not sure, just go back and see for yourself. I know you do not need to. You admit you antagonize others, but not me. Oh, if you apologize for calling me vd, i will not call you Big Liar.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry dude, I can't help but think of you as vd.

                  Sort of fits, if you know what I mean. smile

                  Is boy better?

                  1. viralprospector profile image61
                    viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this
  47. Milla Mahno profile image59
    Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago

    Wow, so much argument - and all about nothing!

    Christians arguing about free will is a funny thing, really.

    The mere question of free will renders Hell and Heaven impossible, and therefore ruins Christianity, because Christianity cannot exist without them. Let me explain.

    If God gave us free will, we are allowed to use it at our discretion, and we can be neither punished, nor rewarded by God for that - or it is not a FREE will anymore. Therefore, there is no need in Hell or Heaven.

    Now, if God did not give us free will and we act as his sock puppets, all our sins are his sins, and all our glories are his glories - what can we be punished or rewarded for? Therefore, there is no need in Hell or Heaven.

    Find a falacy here - I can't smile

    1. viralprospector profile image61
      viralprospectorposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Milla;

      I was going to let this go, but I have never written to you before. So Hello!

      Free will has nothing to do with heaven and hell. Free will is simply whether we have the freedom to choose. Of course we do. That is not connected to heaven or hell at all. heaven and hell can easily exist and we can choose one or the other. We can also be totally ignorant of how to be chosen for them, so that the decision is made for us.

      We can surely have free will and be punished for using it wrongly. Inherit in free will is that right vs wrong are our choices. If we choose wrong, we should be punished, right? Well, be sure, we are. That does not affect that we can choose. Often people choose things that can hurt them. Still, they are free to choose them.

      The sock puppets thing is ludicrous, but you know that. People are not sock puppets. God did - again - give us free will. So, our sins are the farthest thing from His sins. They are our sins.

      IA apologize that my first post to you is one of disagreement, but I mean nothing personal whatsoever. It is just that our opinions differ. As to it being all about nothing, I agree fully with Mike. If you find it of nothing, then why are you here? Hopefully, you are here to learn, too.

  48. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    The fallacy is that you, an atheist are trying to teach Christianity to Christians. lol

  49. Milla Mahno profile image59
    Milla Mahnoposted 8 years ago

    God forbid, Mike! yikes Me teaching Christianty? No way big_smile

    I am just merely pointing out one of the reasons why Christianity in its current form does not make any sense smile

  50. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    Well if you don't believe in it then why stick your nose in it?

    Just to cause more anarchy?

    That clearly seems to be the atheist agenda.

 
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