Help me out. I run into people of the Christian faith that love to use that phrase "2.judge not lest ye be judged."
Their position from what I gather is to avoid judging others period so no matter how horrible a person's action were we are as people are not to judge them. If that be the so then shouldn't we remove the laws we have, for the purpose of the laws is to judge. All weapons of personal and property protection should be done away with. If we are to do no judging then should we sit back and simply watch acts of violence take place in front of us? If we are not to judge then how can people be held accountable for the action of others if we do nothing likie being a get-away-driver?
Its simple really.....
If you cant make righteous judgement then it better to not make any judgement at all .....both ways you yourself will remain innocent.
For just as you judge so you would be judged.
So judge right or not at all.
Interesting Righteous Judging. I can see your point but if that phrase can't be found in scripture I am certain the people I'm dealing with will reject the idea of righteous judging for they need to be shown prove.
John 7:24“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
There lies the difference , to christians right means according to that is written....
Forsaking right according to the heart observing which is able to judge from both sides.
In the eyes of the law: Every man is innocent, until "Proven Guilty" beyond a shadow of a doubt. Without the full facts, we know not all the truth or the circumstances behind a person's deeds. Therefore we can not stand in judgement of any man because only God knows the truth, only God knows that person's heart at the time.
I respect you point your position on this matter however that leads me to the questions:
Do we simply stand back and let crimminals kill people? Do we allow rapest to torture and kill? Do we do nothing when someone is being attacked?
I never said that we allow criminals to do anything I merely tried to point out that before we as society point a finger of condemnation at anyone we must be totally sure of their guilt. In other words if the court system with 12 jurors finds them guilty beyond a shaddow of doubt, then they are guilty in the eyes of man.
You're correct. America will become a lawless Nation (and the world will be overcome with rebelliousness) if righteous judgement is taken away from its citizens. Yep, many are trying to do exactly that. The description of Christians who are afraid to be accused of "judging" is an apt description of those who fall into the quicksand of political correctness bred in fear of the Left.
You present reasoning whereby a better understanding of how we should deal with life and the circumstances surrounding us is enlightening, thanks.
Brenda, I bet if you were honest with yourself; for every wrong you accused another of committing while you sat in 'righteous judgment' you could find a wrong within yourself that you wish you hadn't done. Is it possible that those you think you have the right to judge are little different in their own hearts?
First, please don't assume too much.
Second, don't assume too much! ha.
I don't think you'll find anywhere that I've judged a person. I've judged their actions, yes. We all do that.
Of course, indeed, there are wrongs that I've done that I wish I hadn't, many of them. Only when someone admits they've done wrong is there hope for correcting the wrong and/or dismissing the judgement against them. If someone's doing something wrong, what is there to call them to repentance and an admission of repentance? Law. We have to have laws. That's what this discussion is actually about. Law. Laws of human behavior. Just because we're all subject to falling, to messing up, doesn't negate the law in individual instances. Matter of fact, it is the very reason for the law.
I apologize if it appeared I was assuming anything. I was simply responding to your comment that said You're correct. America will become a lawless Nation (and the world will be overcome with rebelliousness) if righteous judgement is taken away from its citizens.
I assumed you were counting yourself as a citizen. Who are the citizens that have the right to judge righteously?
The discussion isn't about the law. It is about the individual judging others. Or, that's what the statement in the OP is about. 'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
I don't think the laws of the land exist in order to call a person to repentence. The laws are for either restitution or punishment. You can't force someone to repent.
Who has the right to judge righteously?
Those who advocate for the laws of the land that are based on the laws of God. Whatever land it is, wherever it is.
I'm unequivocal about that. I'm not talking about various definitions of God; I'm talking about God Himself, and the conscience that He instilled in each human being. I'm talking about right and wrong. Which aren't twistable, aren't changeable, aren't subject to the latest whim or vibe. Concrete law. Subject to mercy and forgiveness, yes, but not subject to the latest fad about right and wrong. Some things just simply are wrong.
And that IS the basis of being able to judge without prejudice. Even judging one's own actions.
When I say "judge not, less you be judged", I'm reminding that person that nobody is perfect. It is possible to have opinions without passing judgement. No, violence is not acceptable. God says do unto others as you would have done unto you. God expects us to appoint people to uphold the law. These days we call them judges instead Jewish priests.
Judgment on a spiritual level is not the same as expecting people to play nicely together in the physical world. A person can break the laws, but it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean they are beyond redemption. It doesn't mean that any of us know what motivated a person to break those laws. Simply because we demand that people be held accountable for their actions in society does not mean that the ultimate cause of any given action renders a guilty verdict on their person for the rest of their lives.
I take the judge not mandate to mean don't see the worst in people and expect everyone to see the best in you. That's hypocritical. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt at every turn, assume that goodness is at the core of each and every person, and deal with them accordingly.
It doesn't make life a free for all.
I can see your point of view and it serves to bring some light to this question however Adam & Eve broke the law and all of mankind is paying for it.
I'm sorry, but you guys get too bogged down in that. If you believe it, it's in the past. Spilled milk. Why attempt to force everyone to suffer because of biblical interpretation? Why not attempt to make the world a better place?
It seems to me that those who believe in original sin put that thought ahead of everything else. I think it's the wrong thing to focus on. It causes you to ask questions like the one that started this thread.
Adam and Eve couldn't have broken any laws...The laws didn't come about until Moses.
So you follow all of the laws written in the OT? If not then you are not following the word of God and you are just as guilty as everyone else.
We can not pick and choose which "Laws" we want to follow.
Adam and Eve were tricked into disobedience (still wrong), But what we know as the Biblical law today were not put into place until Moses.
As I heard other pastors say, people think the New Testament replaces the old testament but they say it does not the new testament is just a continuation of the old testament.
People who are spreading the word of God erroneously needs to be set straight so that their teaching isn't passed on.
What I look for is rational explanations and allowing people to behave any way the like which is involation of man's laws and God's law didn't sound rational to me. Now it others want to live their where they see God as nothing but love or Santa Claus they are free to do so, but I prefer the true now since I was searching for the true then I was prepare to accept that this isn't something I agree with but it was looking like the answers were in favor of just do nothing when evil is all around us.
Now if I'm wrong for make sure I don't lead people in the wrong direction then label me as you will.
The problem with your line of thinking is you are confusing our right as a society to protect our citizens with the admonishment for the individual not to attempt to sit in judgment of others.
You cannot see into the heart of another person. Whether or not a person is tried and convicted in a court of law of having done wrong by their actions; none of us possess the ability to see into their heart and know if they truly learn how what they did was wrong, if they are truly remorseful for their actions and if their hearts have changed.
But the Christian can't understand that. They want to sit as judge and jury in their own minds. They play God in their heads and it makes them feel good about themselves. Very pious. But, remember what you said. Judge not, lest you be judged. If the Bible is correct, for every time you judge another unfairly, if you deem us sinful when we are not; if you find us guilty when we are innocent of any wrong doing; if God exists he will do the same thing to you. Think about how many people you all condemn so flippantly. I'd go a little easy with the axe and the chopping block in your heads, if I were you.
From the statements that you present I am to presume you think people are basically good when nothing could be further from the truth. Even Jesus addressed some people by saying you are like your father the devil. God himself stated that he was a benevolent God but even the great God said in Scripture "I am sorry I made man!"
Evil in our society isn't an infrequent thing. Prisons across America are overflowing and granted there are no doubt some innocents incarcerated and if there was an effective way to prevent that I am all for it however the vast number of people that are incarcerated I do not believe are as innocent as you make him out to be.
Robbery, Rape, Torture, Stealing, lying, cheating, hating, bias, bigotry has been with mankind since the days of Adam and Eve. Modern-day man-21st-century has to place alarms on their vehicles, their homes, doors, windows and in some cases on their person even with the law today and people live like this why because people are basically good? It would appear that people are not basically good because it is not a small segment of society who has to live like this but rather a large segment of society.
Just how many senseless death is it going to take for us to say this isn't right? People should not have to live in fear because we want to pretend people really won't do wrong.
The last thing I'm interested in is judging others but the Bible says put on the full armor of God which as I understand it means to combat evil (not rob, steal or the rest but to help stop the spread of evil) and if we are doing nothing about evil then what does it take in order for evil to exist?
I don't live in fear Spanstar. I'm sorry to hear that you do..We live in the same country, so......if you fear and I don't, maybe the evil is in your mind?
And I guess all the over flowing prisons are just my imagination.
Look at the people who are in those prisons. Look at the events that led them where they are. Not all of those people are bad people.
I was in the Air Force. I worked temporary duty once, as a guard in the base jail. You can call those people bad, but many of their crimes were simple disciplinary issues.
I know a man who spent time in jail because he had paid all of his back child support, but the last check was four hours past the deadline. He was incarcerated for thirty days, because the judge had the power to do it. It's bs.
Many thousands of people who do not endanger others are behind bars. To fear all of the people in that system is a little pointless.
But, that only represents less than 1% of the entire population.
That stats say that 743 adults per 100,000 were incarcerated into federal, state and county prisons.
Yes, despite the ridiculous belief in the Bible that we are all evil, the crimes you refer are committed by a very small percentage of the entire population, mostly Christians, according to prison statistics. If we were all evil, we would all be committing those crimes.
The Bible has already lied to you stating that we are all evil when that is patently false based of the fact only a small percentage of people do bad things. And then, when we find out why they did those bad things, we find a percentage of those folks are good people doing bad things for some reason.
Your blanket statement over us all is completely false.
We definitely can condemn someone's actions when it is called for. Nobody must tolerant evil. Judging in terms of that verse comes into affect when we condemn someone without knowing all the facts. A Christian may condemn an atheist to hell and say he/she is a low-life but actually knows nothing about why they are an atheist, how they were brought up, etc. Only God knows the full truth about someone and that is why He is the ultimate judge. I'm sure you know the feeling when someone says something about you and you think to yourself, "But you don't know me at all."
Another example is when many people, especially Christians, are against abortion and when they hear that someone they know has had an abortion, they judge that person. How do they know of the circumstances that led to the decision to abort? What if the child was the result of rape or was horribly deformed?
I hope that clears things up.
It was enlighting thank you. I'm afraid the personalities I'm dealing with however will only accept their point of view and that in my opinion is everyone gets A Free Get Out Hell Card because we are not suppose to judge no matter what.
Ummm, who died and made you God? Or anyone? Isn't it your belief that only God can judge? When you sit in judgment of any other human you overstep your bounds.
I'm afraid you've shown that you only want to see your view; which is that you have the right to judge. Why ask a question if you are blinded by your own desire to be right? You talk about a get out of hell free card, but read your statements. You aren't talking about hell, you are talking about life on earth. I'm beginning to get the Christian faith now. It appears the religion believes God judges in the afterlife, Christians judge in this life. Very convenient for Christians, don't you think?
I think what Span Star is trying to say is that it isn't rational not to condemn evil because one is frightened of being judgmental. Saying, "You are wrong to steal" is not judging. Judging is, "You're not a Christian so you are going to hell."
Yay! An invisible sky fairy gives us the advice that it's okay to be judgmental as long as we're righteous about it. Isn't that comforting?
I'm not much of a bible reader, however, I believe that the judge not lest ye be judged refers to telling people where they will be going when they die, as you are not the creator you have no right to tell someone where they are going in the end. However, it seems that is the judgement that people give others most often. I think it's called use your common sense, unless you know every single last detail of the situation, you have no right to make a judgement on a person's actions.
I have to say it sounds reasonable I just have to find some evidence in the bible to support this idea.
Does it even have anything to do with the bible. Treat people how you want to be treated.
For some it doesn't have anything to do with the bible for they may be non-belevers but for believers who we are is measured by what we do even if we are doing nothing.
The word Justice and Righteousness are the same words in the bible. The protestant versions normally use a word that was coined for them called "righteousness" but the catholic translations very often use "justice" instead. The translation reads clearer to more people if you use the Latin Vulgate e.g " Unless your JUSTICE exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven"
The Pharisees loved money and could not care less about the orphan and the widow. They went round telling people that they were born in sin from birth and that unless you believed in their doctrine and adhered to it you would be going to hell. There are so many similarities today between modern christianity and Phariseeism that it seems they appear to be one and the same.
I don't wish anyone to go into prison but if you look at some of these documentaries on how a lot of these prisoners behave then you'll know why prisons are so dangerous, more so by the prisoners then those that guard them.
But, documentaries are done for a reason. To push an agenda. Don't eat directly out of their hands.
I'll tell you something else. Even though inmates may appear violent, you have to remember that is a large number of men caged together. Believe it, or not, testosterone goes air borne. When that happens tensions rise. I used to own a restaurant with a bar. It happened a few times and I closed early. You could feel it in the air like static electricity. One spark and the place would have exploded into a fight. None of those were bad people, just a bad circumstance. Taken individually they were teddy bears.
Many of those behind bars act violent for survival, others as a reaction to the environment, and a miniscule few may simply be bad seeds. Given the opportunity with the right surroundings the majority would probably be productive citizens.
I can see your view and my view will never be the same. We all encounter circumstances and some can cause us to do that which we ordinarily would do but when we you here people saying how they take advantage of new comers in prison by threats, blackmail with their own voice these are not teddy bears these are grizzly bears.
I know spanstar, and I think you have been exposed to unfortunate things. I'm very sorry. I'm sure my opinions have appeared naive and callous, in light of that. I hope, in time, you are given the opportunity and the peace of mind to see what I see.
I think people are quick to right some people off and not give them an opportunity, but if the table turns on you , you would want someone to extend the same forgiveness or non judgemental attitude and give your the chance to redeem yourself.
But if you doing the same thing over and over I have questions and problems. But you ever stop think some of us cannot help ourselves and need divine intervention.
We can have a moral society if all we do is say, "Hey People Do Whatever You Want To Do Because We Are Never Going To Do Anything About it. So if you want to take a gun and shoot that new born baby then do so. You feel like torturing men and women well we aren't going to judge you-What Kind Of Society Is That?
It is a society most people don't want to be a part of hence they will live their lives not doing those things. Duh.
People like you have the freedom to partion this American government for an area with your views and way of life -I say the soon you getting at the better for both of us.
Are you suggesting atheists be separated from the general population?
If They feel Christians are the root of America's Problems Yes, Yes, Yes Go far away from us trouble makers.
My roots go back on one side.in this country before the revolution. You can't claim something you never owned spanstar. Simply because you don't understand the premise America was built on doesn't mean you have a right to rip it apart and throw it away. Those of us who do understand will fight the religious bigot every step of the way.
You should seek counsel for that hatred. It isn't healthy.
The idea that you alone understand what's best for everyone means You Need Conunselling because believe or not you don't have all the answers.
I have the answers I need for me. I have enough faith in others to believe they have the answers for them. I didn't get mad when my opinion isn't taken for gospel and suggest you leave the country when we disagree. But, on second thought;
It might be a great idea if you considered starting your own country. All you guys who are trying to steal mine could go, write a constitution with the word god every so often; and then the national motto could be 'I'm so much better than you. I don't care how decent you are, if you aren't christian you're to be feared and hated. Because I'm special and it's my right to judge.'
Wouldn't it be better to be on the side against trouble makers regardless of religion?
When you say, "People like you" are you referring to people who don't do the things you believe they'll do because they don't embrace Jesus?
When you say, "Your views and way of life" are you referring to my views and way of life that does not nor will ever include the things you believe I'll do because I don't embrace Jesus?
When you say, "the soon you getting at the better for both of us" are you saying I should go away because I don't embrace Jesus?
I'm saying you should go away because your bias hatred of others interferes with how others choose to live their life.
How does Troubled interfere with how others choose to live their lives? How do you get that he hates anyone? Wishing that atheists would go away seems like an overreaction.
The same way an Asian America feels when they aren't wanted in there own neigbhorhood, A Mexican, An American Indian etc.
The Kettle is certainly black today, isn't it Miss Pot?
PEOPLE are the root of America's problems. Religious nonsense is just that. Nonsense.
The Creator God- the Bestower of life can only judge the human beings truthfully. He is Master of the Day of Judgment.
Number one if you have the answers you say you have for you why are you forcing them down other people's throats? If someone is dissatisfied with a segment of society and they perceive these people as evil it is only reasonable that they separate themselves from this evil. Since people have down through the ages Christians I would think they would be more than ha happy to remove themselves from such evil rather than continue bastardizing these people! With the way some Americans treat Christians I'm inclined to believe they deserve that title "The Ugly American!"
If you want to separate yourself from what you perceive as evil, you have that right. What you don't have the right to do is expect everyone to move, because you perceive us as evil.
ATM is right. You really don't appear to have any respect for the teachings of Jesus. There's a great deal of hatred in your words.
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