I could choose any number religions and I'm pretty sure that it would be the right choice, depending on my base belief system and whether or not I'd buy into it. Many men have claimed to know the way and the result was only more confusion. I would say, just choose to believe whatever and then no one can argue, especially if it is personal from the get go. People #1 like to argue this because one does not know, religion is based on belief and no sollid answers can be given from faith.
If I could choose the right path, it would have nothing to do with religion, it would be the path that I set out for myself. My opinion is that no answer can be given and that the seeker finds what the seeker wants to find. This is good for the self and just the same, the seeker can never impart whatever knowledge he/she has gleemed for, as I've said a 1,000 times before, there is no language spoken or written that can convince me that anyone has the right answer.
Without deviation from your logic, nor to discredit your conclusion...
I go further to conclude that everything that you just stated is also just "not the right answer".
To disagree is to allow your confusion to remain and take deeper roots.
And I said that as well. There is no right answer, especially one that everyone can agree with.
Well its not good for you to be both right and wrong about the one issue....
That is confusion...
You are either right or you're not....
For right can only be right...anything else is wrong....completely.
To agree with me would mean retracting you position...
Even if/when you include yourself it still confusion....and you're it.
If I claimed to have the answer, the truth is, none but a few would agree. I have my own answers and I am not confused by them. This is the point I'm trying to make. The answer is not in a book or in the words of men, but right in front of you. You must choose to learn and move on and learn some more. One must never stop learning and must never forget that all paths lead in the same direction.
Very simply put, there is no need to disagree with anyone for their choice of beliefs. If you find what you're looking for, then that was the answer for you. This is why it is a subjective venture.
The trouble with religious belief is the 'right way' can't be properly discussed - not rationally anyway because there's already an assumption of immutable truth.
At least with people basing their beliefs on their own reasoning, there's more room for debate and the changing of minds. when something seems truer or 'righter'. After all, most of the great moral leaps forward in the last few hundred years have come from secular thought, not from religious instruction.
It is true though, that in these days of Western *salad bar* religion, many people just superimpose their own beliefs on their religion anyway...ignoring or making excuses for those bits that don't fit their own moral compass and accepting those that do. This may be a bit feeble (how can a holy book be only true and divine in parts?) but at least it dodges some of the dire consequences of fundamentalism.
People get trapped in their minds by not moving forward. It is better to learn and retain than it is not to move on with the teaching. With free will there is no room for growing stagnant, yet people stay where it is comfortable and forget that the world and people change. They hang their very lives on the words of pious men that love hookers. The point is, that to hang one's life on the words of men, only leads to violence and ego.
Again this is what the observer in myself see's and it is not based on fact or on any moral high ground. It is just how I view the world and is a part of my own philosophy. People can take it as it is, perhaps learn from it or discuss it like an adult. I cannot be wrong, maybe misguided, but not wrong.
What's the difference between between being misguided and wrong? 'Misguided' suggests there's a correct position to be steered away from.
For the most part, people actually never choose their religion.
I think there is a divine energy, but that we are all a spark of it. I have no use for organized religions, they do not answer my questions. I am interested in all religions though, and take what I will from each. I dislike any based on fear or going to hell, I don't believe in heaven or hell, and do believe in reincarnation. I wish all religions would accept the areas where they agree, and stop fighting about who is wrong and who is right. It's like a childish, "My religion is better than yours." We need to decide our own truth. Spirituality is between you and what you believe, and how you choose to live your life. That should be your only concern, except for treating others well.
There's always a "right" way and a "wrong" way. And, every individual is able to discern which is which. Whether or not they accept truth when revealed is the difference between being honest and dishonest.
I wasn't going to bother with this thread, because it's suggestive statement about religion, but it's complete ignorance to think that there's no right answer with regards to a question about life itself.
I'm of the understanding that those who choose to distort and pass along misinformation, such as "life is too complex to be understood, therefore no one individual could possibly comprehend it", is just that- distortion and misinformation.
The foundation of being human begins with choice, that choice is simple to make, you either choose to understand your own life or you choose not to do so.
To understand your own life is the first step before you can even attempt to explain the world around you and your perception of said world. Anyone attempting to explain the world around them through their own perceptions without first knowing themselves, is plain foolishness and blatant ignorance.
Therefore, you must decide to learn and know about your self before anything else. Any level of ignorance with regards to knowing yourself will only lead to confusion and a skewed perception of living life.
Since I know myself, I know that the only path for life(anyone's life) is through being honest with one's self, before attempting any action with regards to the rest of the world. This requires a high level of self awareness and a complete understanding of the "word" integrity. Having a high level of self awareness and understanding "integrity", brings about a love for one's self because they will understand the consequences of their actions, on both sides of the equation- (a) self and (b) others. A person cannot love others or claim love for others without first truly understanding themselves, because you need to understanding yourself before love can be achieved within one's self. To make a claim of loving others without loving one's self first and foremost, is just dishonest.
I completely disagree with anyone who is going to spout off about there being no language or words, which can explain life itself. That's just pure unadulterated nonsense.
Again, if the answer is right to you, then it becomes subjective. By subjective I mean you have made it the subject of your life. Then it becomes the right answer for you. But to me, there is no right answer because all the questions point in the same direction. This is my subjective view and while it is not unique in any way, I can only state it in so many words.
It is very simple to understand what I am saying. I am saying, that there should be no prejudice between religious belief, for the subject matter is all the same, no matter what discipline one should choose to follow. This view does not make me wrong, it makes people argumentative because they know it is right. It may not be right for them, but people don't like it when individuals want to walk outside of the fold so to speak.
Plain and short. I am a very simple person, with a very simple mind and I don't care who's right or wrong. I just see the simple truth and it's been corrupted by religious piety and the suckers that fight for the wrong reason. I am going to think this way and I am not wrong for it.
BS. Truth isn't subjective. It's objective and everything I said is TRUTH that isn't up for you to dispute.
The path laid out as stated cannot be argued with. Therefore, you've no ground to stand on.
I'm not a relativist either but how can any of us prove what we believe to be right is objective truth? We can only go by what seems most reasonable.
Prove what is believed is right? Well, my earlier post in this thread isn't a belief. Anyone who reads what I wrote, then makes the claim it's not right, either needs to get over themselves or have their head examined.
I never said you were wrong and I never claimed to be right. I only stated my philosophical mindset. This is how I feel and it is relative to me. You can disagree with it or you can accept it. It is a reallity that one should live with and I have no plans to change. If God or whatever it is chooses for me to change I will, but I don't see that happening in the near future.
And yes I would disagree with your philosophical mindset, because you're deluding yourself(convincingly) that there's no right way(path).
Understanding Life isn't that difficult.
And yet I wasn't talking about life. I was talking about subjective reallity. The objective reallity is of another realm altogether, which I wasn't talking about. Yes we tend to objectify just about every aspect of our lives, but it has nothing to do with subjectivity. I speak my mind as I see it, you can disagree all you'd like or you can see the truth in it. The choice is yours, hence it being subjective in nature.
If you were talking about religion, which you were, then you are talking about life.
Reality isn't subjective. Only those who don't understand their own life would think that, because the world around you is explained to you through objective means.
You don't know what you're talking about period.
In Life Objectivity and subjectivity should be one and the same... and it is.
This why Life is a singularity.
For Objectivity of Life is always subjective to the person who is also Life.
Therefore though men disagree, none is wrong and all is right.
A man is wrong only when he believes himself to be and at that point he becomes wrong and he only believes himself to be wrong because he also believes all others to also be wrong...
So when a man is right as he is always, and he believes himself to be wrong, this create a division in himself and this division is his Death...for he does not have Life as it objective. but instead the life if death is his objective.
(The Life of death begins in nothing and ends there.)
And dead is he indeed for He is at odds with Life itself
Life is Objective but subjective to him who is death so therefore death is ultimately the man.
Do all thats in you to understand for Life is at stake... and if you cant then death will take over...
Do you best not to be doubtful...for death and doubt are one and the same.
In The Budhist scripture, you may be enlightened, but it will cease if you acknowledge it. An enlightened being doesn't need to show you that they are enlightened, you can just tell. Now, these days, it's hard to tell because we are distracted by our surface wants and egotistical pseudo needs.
This is another facette of our nature. We tend to look for what makes us happy now, as opposed to what can last for any true length of time. I have an objective way of aproaching religion and not because I object to it. I see the human dillema as a road block of sorts, especially when people latch on to something they could really interperate in their own way. Hence the route to true understanding is hampered by self dellusion and pride.
Does this make sense to anyone? I really want to know, so I am not trying to be crass or offend anyone...
The man who relies on scriptures can never see True Light..
And the nature of Light is that it emanates from its Ownself
meaning that it needs no outer acknowledgement that cause it to be or to strengthen that which it Is.
Did not the one Called the Christ openly declare who he was?
So how can The light cease to be Light after it acknowledges itself.
Each man does according to that which he sees...
And He will follow that which he presumes to be Light...
So many times he follows the darkness presuming it is Light..
When he finally sees True Light Only then he knows the difference between True Light and False light.
But when one has not seen the true Light, He feel obligated to follow that which he considers to be Light but actually is still darkness, therefore he adopts a form of humility which is merely a reflection of His own dilemma as present when one still abide in darkness...
These are the pious religious Through their doctrine and laws follow after a false humility.
So in the end the Self deluded cannot help but walk with Pride which appear as humility.
This they do so as have the appearance of the Self-assure one who is full of Confidence in the True Knowledge of himself, Only those can be truly humble, for they know exactly the nature of humility.
So is your position understandable...very much so and actually it is expected that each one must follow a path that he chooses, even if for a while he follows another it still his choices his path.
Even when he his exceedingly Evil in this Life, he receives his just reward of his death and the scourging of the fire of Hell, so that he is found worthy to partake of Life in another age to come.
So my friend when your inner matches your outer, that is where ýour objectivity and subjectivity meets and at that point you begin to see Life and thats cause youre It.
This universe we come from is truth. The fact that we exist is truth. But why? We can stab at conclusions all day, in the end no one is right. This what I mean subjective. I am not an objective person because I hate materialism. I know I need it and I have no choice but to bend to it. This does not mean I indulge in plentitude, but that I see things my way. So does everyone else. That why we have an imagination, so we can work with what we see and we can make our own truths.
"The illusion is the dellusion that we are in control". I don't remember who said that, however it can pertain to any facette of reallity or metaphysical belief. I am not saying a shirt is not a shirt. I am saying that to an insane person, a shirt may be a giant bug or a spider. But this is the truth... People see it their way and nothing will ever change about that.
When I was a Christian, I saw that God was something I could never grasp. I do feel something, though I don't know how to say it. People have tried and some people have gone a long way, but in the end it never seems to be universal. The only universal thing really is that this is what it is going to be, no matter how it changes.
Religion can be subjective in that our religion is based on what we believe. To me it is indisputable there is a God - call Him God, Yahweh, Sun, Creator - whatever. There is a being greater than we. Religion is the way we follow that being and the morals we chose to follow in our life. Without religion there is emotional chaos. No guiding path to follow, no right from wrong. What we truly believe, not just what we say we believe, but what we truly believe is indeed right for us. It may not be right for the next person because he/she may not truly believe. Any religion requires faith as well as belief, without these there is chaos. You can't make up the rules as you go along; they were made up for you centuries ago.
"Without religion there is emotional chaos. No guiding path to follow, no right from wrong"
Those are just brute assertions.."believe this because I say so". Not very convincing.
Edited to add:
"You can't make up the rules as you go along; they were made up for you centuries ago."
Yes, you can. In fact that's what we've been doing all along. If we didn't we'd still be stoning people to death, burning witches and condoning slavery.
You are talking about moral platitude and religious law and again, I will either follow the rules or not. This the dillema of free will. Some choose to do wrong and some choose to do wrong. I'd like to think that my actions are considered right. I don't stone people and I never burn anyone however, I can be very vengeful, within the constraints of the law of course.
Free will makes any rules made for me, moot. I follow what is morally right because I believe morals and justice are a good thing. With free will rules made by men can either be followed or ignored. This too is subjective in nature and is the point of the entire thread.
"... there is no language spoken or written that can convince me that anyone has the right answer."
-I agree. But there may be many books we have never read; and many people we have never spoken to, or heard of..
Meher Baba said that "The beauty of life is that it is life". He didn't speak with his mouth, for he had taken a vow of silence in his early twenties. Instead he used a board with an alphabet to point out what he had to say. Now I could agree with the things he said or I can ignore them, the nature of such a topic is subjective to the reader, or one can choose to be objective, but over all it is up to the reader.
I claim no religion because as a member of the human race, I've been exhausted by all the piety and haughtiness of people that claim to be one way or another. While I am not an atheist, some would think that I am because I don't see God the way they do. I can no more make you understand the pain that I feel when I stub my toe. There simply are no words that could make you feel my pain.
I do understand where you stand in your journey. You mentioned Meher Baba, the Indian mystic.
Now I will suggest another Indian mystic, named Rabindranath Tagore. He was a poet. He wrote one poem that may give you some light-
"A wandering madman was seeking the touchstone, with matted locks
tawny and dust-laden, and body worn to a shadow, his lips
tight-pressed, like the shut-up doors of his heart, his burning
eyes like the lamp of a glow-worm seeking its mate.
Before him the endless ocean roared.
The garrulous waves ceaselessly talked of hidden treasures,
mocking the ignorance that knew not their meaning.
Maybe he now had no hope remaining, yet he would not rest, for
the search had become his life,—
Just as the ocean for ever lifts its arms to the sky for the
Just as the stars go in circles, yet seeking a goal that can
never be reached—
Even so on the lonely shore the madman with dusty tawny locks
still roamed in search of the touchstone.
One day a village boy came up and asked, "Tell me, where did you
come at this golden chain about your waist?"
The madman started—the chain that once was iron was verily gold;
it was not a dream, but he did not know when it had changed.
He struck his forehead wildly—where, O where had he without
knowing it achieved success?
It had grown into a habit, to pick up pebbles and touch the
chain, and to throw them away without looking to see if a
change had come; thus the madman found and lost the touchstone.
The sun was sinking low in the west, the sky was of gold.
The madman returned on his footsteps to seek anew the lost
treasure, with his strength gone, his body bent, and his heart
in the dust, like a tree uprooted."
Are you calling me insane? Just kidding. I understand the meaning, when one searches for this kind of truth, it get's lost in all the paths that may be taken.
I don't remember what it is but I'd like to say that I follow the way of no way, so that I may someday know my own way.
by Richard VanIngram7 years ago
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For those who are interested, I am putting together a primer on the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Much of the disagreement in this forum is due to confusion between the two. We'll start with a...
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Why do we need religion? We all know what is right or wrong. why can't we just do the good even when nobody is watching? Apart from the right and wrong, what else is available in religion?
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