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nobody can deny the existence of God

  1. daeemomin profile image60
    daeemominposted 8 years ago

    CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST
    Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.
    My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, â??La ilaahaâ?? - meaning â??there is no Godâ??. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is â??il lallahâ?? i.e. â??BUT ALLAHâ?? which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
    LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

    My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that â??this is a penâ??, for the opposite person to say, â??it is not a penâ??, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say â??there is no Godâ??, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.
    If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.
    Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.
    (You may refer to my article, â??Concept of God in Islamâ??, for more details)
    QURâ??AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
    The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the â??Concept of God in Islamâ?? to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.
    Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qurâ??an is a revelation of God.
    If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, â??the creator of that object.â?? Some may say â??the producerâ?? while others may say â??the manufacturer.â?? What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Donâ??t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.
    SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QURâ??AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, â??THE QURâ??AN AND MODERN SCIENCE â?? COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?
    THEORY OF PROBABILITY
    In mathematics there is a theory known as â??Theory of Probabilityâ??. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.
    A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.
    Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qurâ??an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qurâ??an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.
    At the time when the Qurâ??an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qurâ??an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.
    The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qurâ??an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.
    Further, the Qurâ??an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either  wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qurâ??an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.
    The Qurâ??an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qurâ??an is Divine.
    CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QURâ??AN
    The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the â??CREATORâ??, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is â??Godâ??, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, â??ALLAHâ??.
    QURâ??AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
    Let me remind you that the Qurâ??an is not a book of Science, â??S-C-I-E-N-C-Eâ?? but a book of Signs â??S-I-G-N-Sâ?? i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qurâ??an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. â??signsâ??, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qurâ??an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qurâ??an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.
    But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes â??Uâ?? turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qurâ??an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qurâ??an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.
    SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
    Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small â??gâ?? that is fake god) but God (with a capital â??Gâ??).
    Surah Fussilat:
    "Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
    [Al-Quran 41:53]

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The only question I have for you is, what do you think a-thiesm means?
      What do you think an atheist is?  smile

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Not sure what his definition is but "theist" is one who holds to the "one god" (thory, for want of a better description), and an a-theist is the one who stands in denial of, or opposition to that view.
        That's my definition.(not that anyone cares I guess)

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          To what view?  In your own words.  What is a theologist view?

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            It comes from two root words.
            "Theos", Greek word for god.
            "logos", Greek word for "word, truth, idea, concept, etc"
            A theologist, then is one who studies/seeks the truth (concepts, ideas etc) relating to God.

            1. 0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              So why are other concepts left out?

              1. aka-dj profile image79
                aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Not sure by what you mean "other concepts"
                In the broad sense, a theologist would not be (say) just christian. You could say ( and be correct lierally) any study of "god" is theology. So then "a-theism" opposes/denies any or all god(s).
                Did I clarify that enough?

                1. 0
                  sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Then what is God?

                  1. Andrew0208 profile image61
                    Andrew0208posted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    God is a Spirit. This is not understood and explained mentally or carnally. The fact that some people deny the existence will truely let you know, He is a Spirit as He is no mortal. He is not an idea or a feeling but simply a Spirit. Question; Who is the Spirit? Think about it. I will be right back, stay tuned!

    2. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Good analysis.
      However, based on your explanation of probability, let me suugest this to you.
      The God of the Bible, is NOT the same as Allah. Therefore your dillema is, you have a 50% chance to follow the right one!
      What if you choose the wrong one? (all-be-it, your faith is genuine and passionate.)
      It's still a gamble that has eternal risk/reward attached to it.
      All humanity (I hope) acknowledges a clear distinction between truth and falsehood.
      Deception is non-existent in the absenece of truth. Therefore, one can logically conclude, there is only ONE truth. Making all else, false, or deception.
      The challenge (for mankind) is to seek out and follow truth.
      One more thing that I would like to make clear. You say that the Quaran presented certain scientific truths 1400 years ago,+/- . That's fine, I can't argue the point, "but" the Old Testament, written hundreds of years BC, has taught the very same thing. (preceding your example by almost double.)

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        The God of the Bible, is NOT the same as Allah.
        Its obvious your knowledge is limited otherwise one cannot make such an ignorant statement which is being fanatical.

      2. daeemomin profile image60
        daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        You said that the God of the Bible is not the same as Allah.

        In Islam God is one God in the most basic, simple, and elementary meaning of the word. He has no children, no parents nor any equal. In Islam God is known by the name "Allah" and more than 99 other venerated names, such as "the Merciful," "the Gracious," "the All-Powerful," etc
        Christians do not have a clear concept of God. According to them God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are "coequal" "co-eternal" and "the same substance." For this reason, this doctrine is described as "a mystery."
        Christianity has not even a clear concept of God.


        You said, “The Old Testament, written hundreds of years BC, has taught the very same thing. (Preceding your example by almost double.)”
        The problem is that the Bible you are having in your hand is not fully authentic. It is not available in its original language in which it was revealed. It was written years after its revelation. There are so many versions of Bible. In addition, there are so many contradictions in it.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Not so!
          The Old Testament is (virtually) identical to the Jewish Torah, etc, and as for original language, there is no discreppancies of any substancial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions. (Esp, KJV and NKJV)
          As for contradictions, well, that's a matter of opinnion. You can find things that don't make sense, (therefore appear contradictory)
          I take it you are not a Christian.

          1. daeemomin profile image60
            daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            You said “There are no discrepancies of any substantial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions.”
            It means that discrepancies though to some extent exist.
            Is the Bible literally word of God? The story of its compilation does not suggest that it is literally the word of God.

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Take the example of the Holy Guru Granth Sahib.Its a compilation of various spiritual poets who praised the One Light.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib
              These saints belonged to different social and religious backgrounds, including Hindus and Muslims, cobblers and even untouchables.

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this
                1. daeemomin profile image60
                  daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  The first thing is that Jesus Christ was not the founder of Christianity. He invited people towards total submission to God. He did not ask them to worship him. He was only a messenger of God.
                  Old Testament and New Testament both were written years after the time of Moses and Jesus. No body can vouch for their total authenticity.
                  Unlike Bible, the Holy Quran was written as it was revealed from God. you must be knowing that it was revealed in stages over a period of 23 years.  Whenever the revelation of some verses took place Prophet Muhammad used to summon some of his companions who knew writing and asked them to write the revealed verses. Thus compilation of Quran took place. There is no any discrepancy in Quran. Not a difference of a single letter. Millions of Muslims recite it by heart.
                  We are not fighting over this. What I want to say is that the Bible was revealed by God. But it is not available in its original form. Quran is the last revealed book of God. And it is for the entire humanity. It is up to the people. They may believe it or not. Our work is to make things clear. Allah does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing.

                  1. aka-dj profile image79
                    aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Without Jesus, there IS no Christianity!
                    I think that is foundational, whether you like it or not.
                    PS, The first five books of the Old Testament were written BY Moses, not by others after him.
                    Jews will vouch for the authenticity of the OT.! The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm almost every word.
                    You really should do your homework.

                  2. mohitmisra profile image61
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I think both the Holy Quran and The Holy Bible are due to God or mans understanding of God.Both are holy books,masterpieces of the highest order. smile Both have come about due to God and both are equally great.

                2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Are we beginning to see the light yet Mohit?

                  Many of the people who you have been agreeing with just because they say "god" and "love" and "light" - do not believe the same thing you do wink

                  The christian god is an angry and jealous god. And the muslim god came later to correct the false christian religion. You yourself are an infidel as far as both are concerned and will burn in hell for all eternity because you think Jesus was "just another prophet."

                  East is East........

                  And yet so much the same.......... sad

                  1. mohitmisra profile image61
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Need to help correct this situation Mark,they or neither have seen God -I have.
                    Also neither have really understood their prophet or their religion but many others have. smile

                  2. daeemomin profile image60
                    daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    There is only one GOD, the creator is this universe. There is no Christian god or Muslim god.
                    God sent messengers from the very first day.  The brought His messages.
                    In every age people distorted the Message of God and followed their desires. Whenever this happened, God sent another messenger to correct them. Remember He is correcting any other god. There is only one God.
                    Moses came to correct people. When his message was distorted by Jews, Jesus Christ came.
                    Jesus invited people towards one God. His message was distorted and people invented a new religion called Christianity. They associated Jesus with God.
                    Then Muhammad the last messenger came with the message of God to invited people towards God. God’s message in the form of Quran is in our hands.

          2. daeemomin profile image60
            daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            You said “There are no discrepancies of any substantial worth from the translations (out of Greek) to current versions.”
            It means that discrepancies though to some extent exist.
            Is the Bible literally word of God? The story of its compilation does not suggest that it is literally the word of God.

        2. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          According to them God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity
          Yes but then Jesus also says me and my father are one.God is one whether its the mulsims or Christians or hindus.Islam recognises Jesus as a great prophet. smile

      3. Marisa Wright profile image92
        Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        why do you say that?   Surely there is only one God, the only difference is how different religions choose to interpret HIm

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Simply because He reveals Himself in a "specific way", different from all others.
          Jesus is His Son, and in reality, God Himself, manifest in the flesh. He BECAME a man! NO other religion accepts that, nor teaches that. God would have to have multiple personalities, to fit the description of all the various deities in the world.
          All Christianity hinges on Jesus, ( esp. His resurrection). Without that you have NO Christianty! That is in total contrast to any other faith! So, my conclusion is ( along with all fellow believers) that God, as depicted in the Bible, IS different.
          Remember the first commandment!

          1. AEvans profile image70
            AEvansposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Aka-DJ is correct and he is speaking of the TRINITY the father, the son and the holy spirit, so Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God and that they should only pray to one God which is Allah:)

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              The Muslims regard the prophets very highly but unlike the Christians or Hindus who believe there is no difference between the prophets or god,the muslims do not believe the same. The prophets are not in the same league as god. smile

          2. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I believe Christianity has come from Hinduism.The inner eye is what the Hindus call the third eye.
            Jevovah is the same as Brahma and is the same as Allah-identical exactly the same light-god-superentity. smile

          3. Marisa Wright profile image92
            Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            No he wouldn't - remember all scriptures are written by mortal men, so in each case, God is depicted by a mere mortal based on that person's interpretation. 

            Just like four people could meet you, and each one would write a different description of you, so four religions can easily see the same God in four different ways.

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Very nice and simple explanation. smile yet eventually they are talking about the same thing .

            2. daeemomin profile image60
              daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              You said that all the scripture were written by mortal men. It is true in case of bible and other scriptures but as far as Quran is concerned it was revealed upon Prophet Muhammad through angel Gabriel and He memorized it and taught to his companions who also memorized it. Prophet also dictated it to some companions who wrote it. Thus, Quran is not written by mortal men. It is literally the word of God.

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                All holy books are written by enlightened ones or saints,prophets or god men.What she meant is that even the Prophets die.Yes knowledge does come through revelation that is correct. smile

    3. Marisa Wright profile image92
      Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I forgot to say, thank you Daeemomin.   Very well put!  Blind faith is never a good thing.

    4. knslms profile image65
      knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      There is no way I was going to read all of that because it was way to long, but people can deny god's existence. God gave them a right to be dumb enough to think that we just happened. Big bang.

  2. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "(not that anyone cares I guess)" If anyone don't care I don't care.

    1. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That's  why I put this "disclaimer" in, because I figured there would be those reading this that "don't". smile

  3. Make  Money profile image72
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    From this simple dictionary we see that omnipotent means "having unlimited power".

    If you accept that God is omnipotent then why could you not accept the three parts of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost?

    Mike

  4. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    They also have a trinity in Hinduism I believe. They are called the Creator, Prserver and Destroyer.

  5. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    GOD in Hinduism is "Giver--the Brahma--one who creates and gives us to the world."    "Operator- Vishnu-- one who operates or protects our lives"  and  "Destroyer- Shiva- one who takes us away after completion of our endeavour on earth".  Everyone have their own faith. Why do we have to say here in this forum "your belief is right - my belief is right" and everything else. No one has the right to deny other religious beliefs. If we believe God has sent us to this world, then we should not contradict other faiths. He would not have sent us here for creating controversies.

    1. weblog profile image59
      weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Then, why it happens? Do you have an answer? Is that so called God having fun with these controversies? smile

      1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        May be ! Just for fun..., he may have sent us to entertain him. It happens only when everyone likes to establish his own faith in others' places. You dont believe in god...? very happy. You will have extra time for doing your work.

        1. weblog profile image59
          weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          If there's a God, I'd be delighted to meet/feel/see him smile I just don't spend time in searching for him, I have nothing to request from an unknown Super Power, I'm capable of anything that I can achieve by hardwork in my limits. And, as you may know we have several living Gods, can say 'love is God'..'Work is worship' and so on, and how about our parents, friends and well-wishers? I'm happy, contented with my above said Gods big_smile

          I know you are an Indian, I'm also smile Are you from South India? Which state? Tamilnadu?

          1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
            VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I am searching for God, whenever I have time, but in vain. I believe in myself.  My mother is my God; she gave me to this earth. In short, satisfying others and prayer to parents are more than prayer to god... I think. You are very much correct !   I am from the same Periyarland, ie., Tamilnadu! .... Periyar... he is my father's deity!  But I differ in some ways, and cannot subscribe to his policies, which are impractical.

            1. weblog profile image59
              weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              It's nice to know. I'm not sure if you have joined HP for the sole purpose of participating in forums, but never mind. Just curious to read if you can post a few of your thoughts in the form of hubs smile

              1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                First, Forums attracted me to participate in HP. 
                Now, after seeing the discussions on several topics, I think I will also be forced to post a hub. "Legacy of Indira Gandhi",  "Himalayas- Mountains of Destiny", "Sikkim, a new travel destination", "Srilankan Tamils struggling for equal rights",  posted by me have not received enough interest. Just because there are less Indians in HP.

                1. dingdong profile image59
                  dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree, but not fully. There are lot of Indian hubbers(including NRIs) here, but only few participate in forums. Nice to see you around here smile

                  1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Ms.dingdong, happy for your instant response... more happy that you are from South India. Will be more happy if your name is shown as it is... Would have been more happy if you had not snubbed me in some other place in this HP.

  6. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 8 years ago

    If Jehova/God is the same as Allah, why does He tell one group of people (say christians) to "love their enemies", and tell another group, (say the muslims) to kill Jews, Christians and infidels, and oh, not to forget their enemies?
    That's INSANE!
    NO WONDER so many of you don't believe! Neither would I, if God looked like that to me! ! !

    1. Marisa Wright profile image92
      Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Please show me where HE has said any such thing.  And pointing to books where OTHER people have written down what they claim He said, doesn't count.   Because anything that humans have written down, whether divinely inspired or not, is open to error and misinterpretation, especially when translated into other languages. 

      By the way, Christians have killed more Muslims in the name of Christianity than vice versa, if you look back in history.  Which I'm ashamed to say, since those Christians were my ancestors, too.

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Perfect-
        Please show me where HE has said any such thing
        Please show us all-this will be the greatest or rather the scariest discovery of mankind.

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The Muslims feel the same about Christains.-Why do they come to our land kill our brothers and rape our woman.
      This has reached a very dangerous situation and need sto be diffused by using intelligence and understanding. You and the Muslim are first human -your religion and country come second.

    3. daeemomin profile image60
      daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Did you ever read Quran?

      Every life is sacred in the sight of God. God has only permitted to fight those who exceed their limits, kill the innocents and spread mischief on earth
      Look what Allah says:
      •Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law) [17:33]
      •The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage [42:40-43]
      •Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them; [22:39]
      This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people.
      •And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. [2:190-192]
      God never ordered to kill Muslims either. But Christian did it. Don’t you remember crusades? They not only massacred Muslims but also massacred Jews. The history is filled your “benevolent act” persecuting Jews.
      If you can’t read Quran and blame Islam, let it be this way. But at least you must read your history

      1. 0
        Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Not to dumb down that idea, but I have a hard time believing God is violent.

  7. Shadesbreath profile image91
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    Not hard to see how and why so many periods of holy death pop up in history as I watch this.  So much "certainty" of "absolute truth" and words like "all humans acknowledge" stuff, and people actually using a "common dictionary" to support theological ideas.  It's no wonder there is so much murder and misery endlessly commited in the name of God.

    I notice NONE of these zealotry forums EVER argue about what's the best way to spread love and kindness; how to better accomodate the needs of the sick or under-priveleged; or any other act of selflessness, forgiveness or love.  It's always: YOU are wrong and I have the truth.  MY God is THE God; YOU are mislead, deceived and doomed to hell if you can't be SAVED by ME the righteous one.

    I swear Jesus would look at threads like this and think, "Wow, the message was completely lost."

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Good to see you down here in the bowels of hubpages' forums smile

      I will let one of the zealots (well I guess you can consider me one too - or is that an anti-zealot?) explain why none of this is necessary big_smile

    2. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Just out of curiosity, who (in a broad sense) is responsible for starting (and maintaining) charitable, caring, humanitarian organizations around the world?
      Atheists?
      Humanists?
      Muslims?
      Hindu's etc.
      Or were they, by and large "christian"?
      Percentages will do.

      1. Shadesbreath profile image91
        Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        People who have to keep score on how many good deeds they do are probably doing them for the wrong reasons.  I don't remember reading about Jesus counting up the number of people he healed or the prostitutes he didn't throw rocks at. 

        I mean, at least some good gets done by religious ministries, but, it takes something from the spirit of altruism and charity to say, "Here starving child, here's some rice.  If you come to my little tent church later, I'll give you some more over a sermon, because I love you, and want to share my Truth with you despite the fact that your family has believed in animistic Gods for thousands of years."  Maybe a wink to the fact that they are starving because of those evil beliefs.


        And here's another question for you:  Just out of curiosity, who (in a broad sense) is responsible for starting the most wars, inquisitions, hate campaigns, and persecuting organizations around the world?

        Atheists?
        Humanists?
        Muslims?
        Hindu's etc.
        Or were they, by and large "christian"?
        Percentages will do.

        1. Make  Money profile image72
          Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Not to boast, just to reply to your post.  I sponsor a foster child from India.  He is Hindu and there is never any mention about converting him to Christianity.  The organization that I sponsor this foster child, Krishna through does not waste any money on advertising so I'll give them a plug here, Chalice.

          Regarding your question on who is responsible for ... ?  The one on the top of the list.  Want the proof?

          1. AEvans profile image70
            AEvansposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            oh my, in the end of days brother will turn against brother , and so on do we see what is happening here? We all arguing our points and where does it get us? Is it resolved? WWJD?smile

          2. 0
            Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I know where you are going with this one and it's hardly fair.  Mao and Stalin were only two people and they administered only two organizations in the twentieth century.

            Wars, Inquisitions, hate campaigns, and genocide have a systematic pattern to them as it pertains to dogmatic religion of any sort.  These patterns go back thousands upon thousands of years, communism is something that sprung up and those people killed under Stalin and Mao were killed by essentially two people.  That's it.  There were many Popes, and many Church organizations and even canonized Roman Catholic Saints that headed up Inquisitions.  The same goes for the Muslims and the Protestants.  The same even goes for the Jews whenever they were in power, just read the Old Testament.  This kind of stuff is endemic to dogmatic religious belief.

            For crying outloud a single Deist could come along who takes power in Russia and slaughters all dissenters to his autocratic regime and then proceeds to nuke the entire Western Hemisphere and if you rely on numbers alone, then it could be then said that a Deist killed the most people and was responsible for the most deaths of any war.  It's pointless to compare numbers in a day and age when the populations of the 20th and 19th centuries probably were greater than most all the centuries before them combined.  It's a pattern in religious conviction that lead to the slaughter of people in those proceeding centuries through inquisitions and persecution and genocide.  That pattern is undeniably rooted in the very essence of what it means to be seriously dogmatic, whether it is communism or religion.  Stalin and Mao were two people and communism was something new.  Dogmatic Religion is not new and has been doing it for a long time before Communism ever came around.

            The Catholic Church will no more admit that it was responsible for a brutal Inquisition under the direction of Francis Xavier against the people of India than the Turks will admit the Armenians were slaughtered by them after World War I.  The sheer number of times that these kinds of things have taken place versus just the sheer numbers of people tallied dead definitely goes to religious people and religious institutions that instigated them and religious rhetoric that gave the moral justification for them.  You don't get off the hook just because their was much more of a population in the 20th century when Communism came around.  Also, most atheists in the "West" today are not communists and despite their misgivings about religion realize it is better to live and let live.

    3. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Very nicely written.All the prophets will be crying with what is happening .
      Look at the human first, his or her qualities.

      1. Shadesbreath profile image91
        Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah.  I tell you man, I may be sort of pagan/agnostic... something else, still looking for answers... but I'm glad you agree.  It's not about the book you read or the name that you use to describe that which is beyond our ability to comprehend or prove... it's about how you live in relation to the people around you.  Good is good, and everyone knows a good deed when they see one.  Everything else is blah-blah-blah.

    4. 0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That is a very good point, and it is one worth noting.

      People get on religion forums and they debate theology, rather than the consequences of various theology; and this seems to indicate that they have a hard time consciously coupling theology with things like how to better accommodate the needs of the sick or under privileged or spreading love and kindness.  Even talking about forgiveness only comes up when it's an ex-christian or someone who is a victim of their religion, and somehow that person needs to forgive and forget or unrealistically expect to forgive and not forget.  They very seldom talk about their own need to forgive people for serious wrongs personally done to them.  It's all rather convenient and bogus.

  8. Shadesbreath profile image91
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    Heh, had to find a fun place to argue.  Thought I had one on another thread, but the guys on there couldn't handle the concepts, so came over here figuring you might have sniffed out some worthy adversaries.

    And you are a bit of a zealot, but at least you present support for your arguments that is verifiable and the things you say are grounded in logic rather than fallacy and specious language play.

  9. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    No shortage here smile

    Take a stroll through "Atheism Rules !" lol

  10. Shadesbreath profile image91
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    Actually I did, saw it was 75 pages long and after skimming about 12 pages willy-nilly, jumped to the end.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Best bits are in the early middle - then it started to repeat itself as new believers arrived but did not want to read the "god-hating," that went on because they already knew what it said, so used the same arguments......

  11. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    "Or were they, by and large "christian"?
    Percentages will do." World-wide I would guess Christians 5 maybe 7%.

    1. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It's hard to find those statistics but these lists might show an indication.
      From List of most charitable countries.


      Quote from this wikipedia on Charity (practice).

  12. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    Oh and by the way congratulations, moron! http://hubpages.com/hub/Where-Has-All-T … -Came-From

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      As you seem to follow the teachings of Jesus Chrtist, perhaps you can answer me this simple question.

      Why do Christians always resort to insults and attacks when they come across some one who does not share their beliefs?

      1. Shadesbreath profile image91
        Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Because Jesus taught that "He who does not grovel before those who pronounce my name with authority is unworthy of respect and should be insulted and spat upon in a most holy fashion."

        Well, at least, I think he must have taught that based on how so many Christians act.  I'll have to go back through my Bible to make sure, but, yeah, based on how so many Christians act, I'm sure he must have taught that somewhere.

        1. 0
          Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          No, he doesn't say that at all. That theory strays 100% away from what he was teaching. He basically says not to cast stones if you've sinned yourself.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Shadesbreath - You may need to borrow this when talking to some christians:

            http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2778/sarcasm3ix4.gif

            I used to think I was making myself clear, but eventually realized that there are some who think, "If is written down, it MUST be true." big_smile

            1. 0
              Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I know he was being saracastic but decided to make the point anyway.

      2. knslms profile image65
        knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I can't say that I agree that they do. Why do I? Because I'm not a very good christian, and it was funny!

  13. AEvans profile image70
    AEvansposted 8 years ago

    Why can't  we all get along???? God only knows I can only dream that the he comes down and pops everybody on there noggins:)

  14. 0
    Writer Riderposted 8 years ago

    You know, I believe God is not a religion.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Correct he is not or rather is not restricted to any one religion or place,he pervades the entire cosmos..Religions are based on a holy mans or prophets teachings,someone who has made contact with god and shows others how he did it-the path to god is called a religion and  all paths lead to the One God..

      1. Shadesbreath profile image91
        Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        You know this idea falls apart with the use of the adjectives.  God as a word to describe love, the impulse for giving, for charity, for mercy and forgiveness... that word "God" works for pretty much all of humanity, most people, even athiests can live with that word if it's just used to describe the universal idea of kindness and "right" that all normal functioning humans recognize.  It's when one set of stories or beliefs starts adding adjectives like "the" and "one"  and "truth" that the universally recognized thing begins to fall apart and the fighting starts... the stories of one faith threaten the stories of another... when really, all the stories lead to the same ideas, the same core human truths and spiritual maybes.

        I think the most amazing thing about Tolstoy's Anna Karenina is how clearly he lines out the nature of what good is by the end of that story and manages not to ruin anyone's faith.

        1. 0
          Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Well, actually, this is pretty much what I was saying above.

      2. 0
        Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Therefore, all the devisiveness because of different religious beliefs is pointless. And surely not the path to God. Plus, what does that say about atheists who do good deeds and are very loving? I have a hard time believing they won't find their way to God.

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          An athesit is also a human and comes from the light or god and will naturally with time find their way back home to God. Meditation is the key of all religions an athesit can meditate without belonging to any religion smile All the Prophets reperesent the light and one must aim for the light with or without a master or prophets help.
          Some are born aware of god or a higher intelligence ,some develope it with time may be with an accident or a spiritual experience,some will find the light or god only at the moment of death. smile

    2. Jewels profile image82
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Beautifully said. Lovely quote.  Totally believe that.  A good belief to have if you're into beliefs.

      One of the smartest statements I've read on a Religious forum to date.

      1. 0
        Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for the kind comment Jewels. And for understanding what I was saying.

    3. daeemomin profile image60
      daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Belief in God without belief in religion is of no use.
      If God exists, He should not leave us without any guidance as to what is the purpose of our life.   He should not leave us in darkness. Here religion comes.
      Now the question is that there are so many religions in this world. Which one is true?
      Some would that all religions are true.
      In order to judge this statement we should see the teachings to those religions. Obviously those teachings are not same. One religion advocates monotheism. In another we find the belief of trinity. In some religions we find polytheism. We will find other difference as well. So they are not same. The statement that all religions all true is false.
      When we say that one religion is true and other religions are not, it does not mean necessarily that they are not from God. Most of them are from God (Though some of them may have been developed by tradition). What we mean is that these religions were pure at one time. But people made changes and distortions in it according to their desires.
      Now we have to see which religion is true.
      In order to judge this we should see which religions claim to be from God. Man-made religions are obviously wrong.
      We should also read the teachings of these religions from their original source and decide which one is more correct according to our reason.
      We can try to discover that which revealed religious scripture is in its original form. 
      On these two criteria I found that Islam is the true religion. It appeals to my mind and heart. It challenges every other religion and ideology.

  15. Shadesbreath profile image91
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    I knew a "born again Christian" who told me that it didnt' matter  how good or pure a person was in their deeds.  He said (to sum up fast) that even a perfectly saintly person who was born in the rain forest somewhere so deep he never met a white man with a bible who could "save" him was doomed.  It didn't matter that the rainforest guy was kind, loving and giving to his community... because nobody from the better societies showed up to save him, his good deeds and loving heart were still screwed and doomed to hell because he didn't actually accept Jesus Christ as his savior.

    1. 0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I usually can and do corner people who believe this crap with what I call the "1491" argument.

      Eventually they are backed against a wall and are forced to admit that the millions upon millions of Indians living across the Western Hemisphere continents of North, South, and Middle America were all involuntarily damned before the year 1492.  It is a real good argument to expose the extremely coercive and ruthless beliefs that some people truly believe. 

      Whether it is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus or a Protestant equivalent I can corner people who believe this garbage quite easily.  It's usually a waste of time if I don't sense the person to be a reflective type of individual who might actually stop and think of what he/she was quite logically forced to admit to.  The best types are the ones who think they are "logical" because it is like someone who is carrying around a noose who walks up to you and says "Here you go" and hands you the noose and says "Hang me with my own noose".

      They start off coyly stating "Only God can judge whether those millions of people attained salvation", and then inevitably end up admitting "They must be damned".  Heck I did that right here in the forums with someone.  Rolled him up like a cheap cigar.  It's so easy to do too because Protestant theology is weak.  Catholic theology makes it more difficult but in the end they can be cornered too.  The way I see it theology is basically metaphorical sophistry employed by practitioners of priestcraft in order to establish, maintain, and repair a societal power structure known as a religion.  If the theology is poorly developed then it takes little time and effort to bring the zealot to the point of severe cognitive dissonance.  If it is well developed then it takes a while longer, but the same result can be achieved.  In order to accomplish deconversion the person has to have a moment where they realize how ruthless what they believe is and come to an understanding that the premises on which their circular logic is founded may not necessarily be as absolutely true as they claim them to be...

      big_smile

  16. 0
    Writer Riderposted 8 years ago

    That is I believe Islam is a good religion that believes in God, I just have a problem with the whole concept you just mentioned (not the entirety of Islam). That's all.

    1. daeemomin profile image60
      daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Who says that God is violent?
      He doesn’t want people to spread mischief on earth.
      If anybody wants to kill you and your family, what will you do? Won't you defend against that person? Will you call it violence?
      Islam is a practical religion. It is not rhetoric.
      Here Quran says:
      To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; - and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “Our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause);- for verily Allah is full of strength, exalted in might,(able to force His will).
      (Chapter: 22, verse: 39,40)

  17. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    Most every post is just a clever trap your making for believers. (I use the term clever very loosely because it either going to be one of two replies. "why you got use insults" or "your pushing your beliefs"

    What is the point? To feel intelligent, to fit in, to gang up on believer's middle school style ????

  18. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 8 years ago

    MK writes
    "Why do Christians always resort to insults and attacks when they come across some one who does not share their beliefs?"
    Does that statement include (some) who don't resort to insults and attacks? hmm

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      Of course not. Perhaps "always," is unfair. How about "often," instead?

      The question still stands though. What do you think?

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I can't speak for "others". But as for myself, that is not my way. I admit I throw in a (little) sarcasm sometimes, but that has always been part of my sense of humor.

      2. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        You talk like you are not insulting.

  19. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    That's just me, I am a very passionate person. People often do things just to get a rise out of someone, I would feel bad if I didn't give them what they wanted!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ask and ye shall receive huh? lol

      And no, it is not just you smile

  20. Junkster profile image61
    Junksterposted 8 years ago

    People sure take religion seriously round here don't they? The post count in this forum is ridiculous!

    I might as well dispense my two pence on the matter:  I take Religion as a belief system, subjective to whoever you care to ask in the world.  I for one used to be Catholic but saw little that made me believe in the teachings of that faith with plenty of pretty awful things happening to family members contrasting their "good" lives.

    I will say that many people find solace in religion and I say more power to them, things like the Bible, whilst probably not factual, are pretty good at providing rules and guidelines for living a good life.

    I don't feel much different now being sans-faith than I did when I was catholic going to church on sundays.  You can't argue with that as much as I can't argue with people who are deeply religious.

    Everyone has their own mind and it's silly trying to put people down because of their choices of faith....that's how wars start smile

    1. knslms profile image65
      knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I don't believe in ghosts, therefore you want find me on a ghost forum!

  21. Junkster profile image61
    Junksterposted 8 years ago

    Did you literally read the first line of my post and say that?

    I made a comment then put forward my opinion on the matter being discussed.  Sorry if that was against the rules.

    1. knslms profile image65
      knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That wasn't directed at you.

  22. Junkster profile image61
    Junksterposted 8 years ago

    Oh, sorry.

    Sounded like a pop at my lack of belief for a second there.

  23. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    No I was just adding to your comment that it is silly to put someone down because of their beliefs. There are many people that come to these forums with the sole purpose of putting down Christians. I will admit that the opposite happens as-well

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      So, what are you here for? smile

  24. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    Money, Drugs, and Women lol.

    Like I said, I don't believe in ghosts, therefor I'm not on a forum about ghosts. I do believe in god therefor I'm here.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ah I see.

      So if your family had believed in ghosts, and people came knocking on your door to tell you you should believe in ghosts, and left flyers asking for money under your car windshield wipers so they could spread the message that ghosts were real, and there were television programs that were specifically broadcast to tell you you needed to believe in ghosts, and there were buildings all over the place that honored the chief ghost and wars had been fought over which was the best ghost to believe in, and the recent presidential elections had not featured some one thanking ghosts for the opportunity to serve his country, and you discovered that people were lying to children about science because it contradicted their beliefs about ghosts, would you still not go to one of the thousands of ghost forums to voice your opinion?

      Even if you didn't believe in them?

      Any way, this is not a "god" forum, it is a "religion" forum. lol

      Money drugs and women. That is why I am here too lol

      1. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, does your wife read these forums? wink

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Not a chance.......

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      lol   lol

  25. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    It is however a god thread.

    This country was founded and created on Christianity. The only reason that freedom of religion was because of the Catholics rule of the old country.

    So where are all of these flyers and knocks on the doors? I must be in a good part of the country because that doesn't happen to me. If it did than so what? Throw it away, sales papers and vacuum salesman do the same thing. Do they not?

    1. knslms profile image65
      knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this
    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Which country?

      1. knslms profile image65
        knslmsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Whoops, We aren't all in my country are we....

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

          Nope.

          Although - the "old country" was not ruled by the Catholics........

  26. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    What? There is more than one? yikes

  27. Junkster profile image61
    Junksterposted 8 years ago

    Nope, I'm in England and we don't tend to get many people come a knocking to preach on your doorstep.  They did one time after a heavy night of drinking and my flatmate answered the door in just his underwear with a bacon sandwich in hand.

    I think he scared the little old women asking if he'd heard about jesus and what he'd done for him so they gave a flyer which before they could leave the front yard he'd thrown at the back of their heads from our open window.

    I shared his sentiment of not being told what to believe in, not so much his questionable belief that all jesus had done for him was give him bacon and thusly high cholesterol.

    On a serious note Mark has a valid point with the whole ghosts thing, I think the one thing that bugs me (and it's likely been brought up many times before) is the whole dinosaur thing.  That sort of throws a spanner in the works for the christians/creationists out there doesn't it?

    1. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      No not really Junkster.

      Not after you watch the 6 part Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed series below.

      1. Junkster profile image61
        Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for that Mr Make Money/Mike,
        I'll have to check them out, it may require some more dedication than I'm accustomed to with 11 video to watch but I guarantee I'll try.

        According to some other forum members it seems like they may be quite funny, or maybe they're being sarcastic (it's so hard to tell on the internet sometimes).

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, they are funny all right. big_smile

        2. Shadesbreath profile image91
          Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          No sarcasm on my part.  They're seriously hilarious.  Time well spent to watch a few of them at least. The first one starts a little slow, but hang with it, it pays off towards the end to have let him set up first.  By the time you get into the second one, it's just fall down funny.  And not just because of the massive stuff he leaves out, it's funny on so many levels.

          The only thing scary about this is the kid videos he talks about.  Man, you tell stuff like this to little kids, they really will believe it.  They have no way of realizing all the stuff he's leaving out, glossing over, misrepresenting and making up, not to mention the fact that they aren't sophistcated enough when their young to see him doing the same evasionary stuff he accuses science of doing, only worse because he has an agenda where science does not.  You could really screw up a kid with stuff like that and make them subject to riddicule in school unnecessarily (not to mention bad grades).  Borders on mental abuse or child neglect or something.  But, beyond that, it's just good harmless fun.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            They certainly are funny. I can't decide which is funnier - the people who make these videos or the grown-ups that believe them.

            I have rather decided it should be classed as child abuse when they show it to kids and teach them this is all the TRUTH.

            I am always torn between feeling sorry for them or hating them, but when I see then forcing it down children's throats and keeping them out of school to do so, I figure they do not deserve my sympathy any more, so I just make fun of them instead:

            http://markpknowles.com/why-make-fun-of-creationists/

            Watch the first video. Shouldn't be allowed and I am starting a campaign to make it illegal to homeschool children in the US. big_smile

            That is how it is done apparently. Whatever you believe, if you can get the government behind you, it gets made a law and every one else has to believe it too.

            I will say god told me, so it's OK.......

            1. Shadesbreath profile image91
              Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah, that covers a lot of the stuff in that Dinosaur fiction set of videos.  The other ones are way funnier though.  Your video is more tragic.  It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion.  The curator is right though when he says that some of those kids are going to start thinking for themselves.

              I think the biggest difference, and the scariest one, is that the difference between that Bible tour in the video, and a regular museum tour is that the regular museum tour just says, "Here's what we found, here's how carbon dating works, etc."  They don't ever say, "Here's the fossil records, and here is how the fossil records disprove the Bible."  Meanwhile, the Bible tour-guide IS saying that in reverse:  "Here's the fossile record, and this his how it is conflicts with the Bible you should believe in."   The angle of the teaching is skewed to create an antogonism between science and the Bible that isn't their, and one that the science community is NOT teaching in response.  These idiots are creating an adversarial relationship in the mids of these kids that is only being fought from the Christian side.  It amazes me how incapable so many Christians are in recognizing that glaringly obvious detail.

              I love the math sequence about the ages of people being 800 years for a while, and the stuff about the canine teeth of T-rex being for vegetables was pretty funny too.  Almost as good as the dinsaurs on the ramp into Noah's boat in the other videos.  Oh, and "we can't cover everything" is a fantastic way to respond to why the Bible tour-guide tells the kids that stratification is "circular reasoning" as if the creatures found in the layers is how they date the layers, and vice versa and yet then goes on to ignore the radiometric dating.  I mean, they literally look those kids in the eyes and bold face lie to them about how science sets the time period for the sandstone fossils.  They outright lie in the name of Christ.  Amazing.  Caught on tape though, that's something.

            2. Make  Money profile image72
              Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              lol lol lol

              I thought you would like these videos Mark, oh salami of the god of Darwinism. lol

              I was wondering why you didn't comment on them when I posted them in your Atheist Rules thread though. lol

              What was discovered in 1841 was the new word dinosaur.  Even scientists have had to admit that "dinosaurs" live with us when a live coelacanth was caught in 1938.  And they must have scratched their heads when the Komodo dragon was first discovered by western scientists in 1910.  Scientist have said that turtles, crocodiles and alligators stem back to the "dinosaur" age.  I wonder why they didn't evolve?  In fact every lizard you look at looks like a "dinosaur".  Well maybe not Eddie Lizzard. lol

              Child abuse?  What is more like child abuse than forcing children in schools to believe something that has not been proven, like evolution.  Do you not see the circular reasoning "scientists" use with the phony columns in Part 1 and Part 2?  Did you watch Part 4 about carbon dating and the dinosaur red blood cells they found in Part 5?

              You hate creationists Mark?  Until science comes up with positive proof for evolution I tend to believe what Dr. Thomas Kindell says in Part 6, that evolution is the most successful lie that the devil has ever spawned.

              If science wants to continue their research to prove evolution I think they should have to do it on their own buck instead of with tax payers money that is handed to them through government grants.

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 1
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSxBkif71ks

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 2
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGJd-OR5MLU

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 3
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXdVYyCZ4

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 4
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0wBoeP1nYk

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 5
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRwjJk5XiwE

              The Great Dinosaur Deception Exposed - Part 6
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgtorP2VWRI



              Well you know Mark I was also thinking of starting a campaign, against public schools that teach evolution.

              Here's how it would go.  The public schools that teach evolution would be closed, the teachers and administrators would have to find new jobs or go home to raise their own kids.  The money saved from this and the sale of the school buildings, busing and everything related would be given to parents to home school their children.  There would be a certain curriculum, without evolution taught for each grade with one building for the whole county for the kids to write their tests.  What the parents received would be determined by each grade their children pass.  The solutions would be smarter and more loving kids, one parent incomes plus what the other receives for doing the home schooling.  This would also make more jobs available seeing one of the parents stays home to raise and home school the children.  The income from home schooling would help pay for the family's housing and other expenses.  Yeah, back to the traditional family.

              There are so many reasons why not to teach the belief of evolution in schools it's just unbelievable why it was even started to begin with.     

              Mike

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Mike - I cut the rest of your rant out, and I understand why you are scared.

                It must be very difficult for you - walking around complaining about the evil scientists who have proven your bible is a lie, and then wanting to use all the clever things the same group of scientists have invented.

                Like a computer to spread your gospel.

                As I said to some one else on a thread recently - you are free to believe whatever you like. If you think dinosaurs were saved on Noah's ark, and also that they died in the flood and were turned into oil by a process known as "rusting" at the same time, that is entirely your choice.

                I am a little confused as to where the dinosaurs that survived the flood went after wards, but I am sure your guru will have a video released soon. Unless I missed that one - can't say I have watched them all.

                I didn't respond to it on the atheism rules thread because I didn't think you were serious. I rather thought no one was ignorant enough to actually believe this stuff. Apparently, I was wrong. lol lol

                Good luck with that.

  28. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    My arrogance knows no bounds!

  29. Shadesbreath profile image91
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    Dude, that was awesome.  Thank you.

    I got through the first two parts but had to take off for awhile.  That's some hilarious stuff.  I love how he bags on the "missing evidence" of evolution, but whenever his theory starts unraveling and getting totally ridiculous, he just says, "Well, the dinosaurs could breath fire because God can make them do that stuff if he wants... give them glands that secrete flamable liquid and a mechanism to make sparks."  So any time he can't find anything plausible to fill in the horrendously huge and laughable gaps in his "theory" he can just invoke the magic of God to fill in the blanks, borrowing from modern day fantasy novels.  That's classic.

    I almost choked I was laughing so hard.  If anyone hasn't watched those, you seriously should.  The stuff with the baby brontosauruses walking up the ramp into Noah's arc is priceless.  There is NOTHING evolutionary science could say to discredit "Creation Theory" more than this dude in the video.

    Which, you know, is ironic.  It's pretty funny how that guy acts like science is "out to disprove the Bible" or something.  That attitude always gets me.  It's like some people just can't wrap their heads around the idea that science doesn't have a religious agenda.  They're just taking data and putting it together. 

    Anyway, that was seriously hilarious, and I will try to get to the rest of it when I can.  Well worth the time.  Thanks for putting it up.

    (Mark Knowles, seriously, if you haven't seen them, it's totally worth your time; I promise. At least the first two are.)

  30. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Anyone can deny the existance of God.

  31. Make  Money profile image72
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    mohitmisra this is what the serpent said to Eve before God kicked her and Adam out of Paradise.



    The serpent is a liar.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      sounds to me like Adam and Eve had no prior knowledge of evil before they ate from the tree.  The Serpent was not a liar.  God said ye will surely die, the sepent said, you shall not die "the death". 

      If the Serpent was a liar, then what would Jesus' sacrifice represent?  Are you saying that the Serpent didn't know?

      1. Make  Money profile image72
        Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        There was no evil for Adam and Eve before the serpent talked them into eating from the tree.  Satan the evil serpent knew that.  Adam and Eve chose to believe the serpent rather than listening to God.  Jesus' sacrifice was to forgive the original sin of Adam and Eve. 

        The lie that the serpent told Eve, then Adam was that they "shall be as Gods".

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Do you mean to say Jesus was and is till date the only enlightened person to have walked this planet.The idea of Christianity is to become like Jesus. :)He is an example of what a human can become.Like I mentioned before Jesus and Christianity is only 2000 years old and there have been many masters before him on this planet as well as after him.

      1. Make  Money profile image72
        Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I don't understand the meaning of an enlightened person and I'm not looking for an explanation of it.  Jesus was the only God that walked this planet.  We are to emulate Jesus but we will never become a god.  Christianity may only be 2,000 years old but Jesus was with God the Father at the time this universe was created.  He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.

        1. Jewels profile image82
          Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega.  God represents the Alpha and Omega.  The universe was already created before Jesus was born, from the vagina of the Virgin (Pure of Heart) Mary. That is clearly written in your bible.  His ability to be reunited with God is the same as Enlightenment.  He is not the only one to have attained this state.  Christianity does not have a monopoly on God.  Never has, never will. Geez!

        2. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus is an enlightened one- someone who has merged with the Light- God.
          enlightened - in light- one who has been one with the light-the source -God.All of humanity will get enlightened with time like Jesus did.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            You shoud read about the other masters who were here before Jesus- one example
            Patanjali the founder of father oy Yoga said seven breaths of one pointed concentration will get you enlightened .
            Radhakrishnan and Moore attribute the text to Patanjali, dating it as 2nd century BCE

        3. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          You should read this  http://hubpages.com/hub/Christs-Life-St … You-decide

          Really you are wrong. smile

  32. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Yeah, but they are lying for Jesus, so it is OK smile

    Says so right there in the bible.....

    http://markpknowles.com/wp-content/uploads/jesusrodedinos.jpg

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I always knew Jesus was a comic book hero!!!  Ride um Jesus!  smile

  33. knslms profile image65
    knslmsposted 8 years ago

    I tried to keep up with all of this but I blinked and thirty more comments!

    1. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah I'm wasting too much time in here myself.  It's kind of fun playing with the atheists though. lol

  34. Jewels profile image82
    Jewelsposted 8 years ago

    The lie that the serpent told Eve, then Adam was that they "shall be as Gods".

    I see this as a lie in itself, and the twist is that those who believe that statement, are those who have been conned.  Ignorance and fear of the serpent will keep you disempowered and continually subserviant.  The serpent is the force to be mastered, and not enveloped by.  Yet those who remain ignorant are those being enveloped by it.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Nice .smile

  35. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    In South Indian (Tamil) literature also, one saint "TIRUMOOLAR" has written about divinity,  human health and living ethics. He is dating back to 3000 years. At that time, there was no religion in India. It is only after the entry of Europeans that religion came here and our society became Hindus, people i.e., living on the banks of river Indus.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Cool give us more. smile

  36. Make  Money profile image72
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    No Sandra, mistyhorizon2003 is wrong.  Very, very wrong as I explain in my post on the bottom of page 6 of this thread.

    Thanks for giving me permission to believe what I do Mark, oh salami. big_smile

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      why is it wrong?  do you believe that Horus was made up before Christ and the Devil went back in time to place those stories there? 

      Or would it be a shame to know that your sweet Jesus ripped off his godlyness from the Egyptians, or the Greek? 

      For a man who studied in a society soley based on all the previous legends it doesn't seem likely that Jesus was any God at all, but a fraud, one whos intentions, I am sure, was to get people to do good things, since he fully identified with those who wanted to bring peace and love, and yet it is always left up to ignorance and ill hearts of the followers to destroy and take things for thier own.

      your religion is a joke disguised in false love that doesn't do anything but tear people apart and bring hate on the world.


      Then again you would have me hanged if you could for being an one of the jew like people who follow the 10 commandments.  right?

      1. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Just because Mike has the god given final authority to decide what is right and what is wrong! He never errs. Didn't you know? :sarcasm smiley:

      2. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        your religion is a joke disguised in false love that doesn't do anything but tear people apart and bring hate on the world. No Sandra do not blame the religion or the prophet,its man who doesnt understand and distorts it to please his ego.Jesus and Christianity teaches love for the whole of mankind. :)Jesus would never insult another tue master it would be like insulting himself and what he stands for. smile

        1. Make  Money profile image72
          Make Moneyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Yes mohitmisra Jesus and Christianity teaches love for the whole of mankind.  But Jesus just railed against the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, as did his apostles.  And around 700 years before Christ God allowed the 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel to fall to the Assyrians because the 10 tribes were worshiping the false god of Baal.  You may have read or heard about the 10 lost tribes.  To find out who Baal is read the bottom post of page 6 in this thread.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I agree with you .All Prophets come and correct the situation that is false knowledge or worship of God.Jesus being a great master did the same. :)But his basic message was love.
            When someone worships something other than the light then the person is on the wrong track and guiding others falsely which becomes wrong.

          2. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Now it sounds about right since I am from the tribe of Gad.

  37. Jewels profile image82
    Jewelsposted 8 years ago

    Make Money: you wrote

    "I don't understand the meaning of an enlightened person and I'm not looking for an explanation of it.  Jesus was the only God that walked this planet.  We are to emulate Jesus but we will never become a god.  Christianity may only be 2,000 years old but Jesus was with God the Father at the time this universe was created.  He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last."

    Do you not see this as tunnel vision?  If you don't understand what enlightenment is, then how can you decide whether your Christian beliefs are right or not.  If you don't play on the other side of the fence, even for just a little taste, how can you made decisions on beliefs and espouse knowledge?  Then knowledge in my sense of the word is more to know, to experience.  As you have had many discussions involving people of different standpoints, different religious backgrounds, different spiritual teachings, and you have no intention of understanding this uncommon experience, yet often used word Enlightenment.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Perfect you dont understand an  enlightened one ,then you dont understand Jesus.Your are a Jewel- Jewel smile

  38. JYOTI KOTHARI profile image77
    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 8 years ago

    I will love to read your hubs. Indo-American N-treaty will be a right kind of stuff for me. Please re-write the same.
    Waiting for a hub!

      Jyoti Kothari

    1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mr.Jyothi, the other topic mentioned by me is also very important, as many outsiders are ignorant of what India is and what it stands for!

  39. Thinkaboutit77 profile image78
    Thinkaboutit77posted 8 years ago

    The title of the forum is: "nobody can deny the existence of God"

    Well, people can deny His existence but those who do are what the Bible calls "fools".

    "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God" - Psalm 14:1

    So people CAN use their free will to deny the very God who gave them their free will but when they do that they are being fools as the Bible says.

    1. Junkster profile image61
      Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I personally don't think it's god who gave me free will, it's more likely to be my parents who gave birth to me and a non-oppressive governement who don't tell me what I should do (within reason, like laws) and allow me to vote.

      That's free will in my book

  40. JYOTI KOTHARI profile image77
    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 8 years ago

    This is very important. It is our duty to info people about India. India has the potential to save the world from its present economic crisis and financial problem.

      People can learn from Indians to save.

    India can bail out the world from its present crisis with its enormous economic strength.

    I love your suggestions on my hubs.
     
        Jyoti kothari

    1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mr.Jyoti, please come to "Politics-Obama's victory" forum.  A hot debate with Mark Knowles who repeatedly describe Indians as "ignorant".

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        No, I repeatedly described you as ignorant big_smile

        1. Misha profile image76
          Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          And not only Mr Mark Knowles big_smile
          Won't you think it would be more beneficial to you to work on eradicating your utter ignorance before coming to the forums?

        2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Is your personal slang an excuse for your ignorance?

      2. Junkster profile image61
        Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Mr Venugopal,  Please don't try and recruit people to join some sort of gang to team up against another forum user, it's not very nice.  Take a chill pill and stop getting so incensed by someone's wording of what he/she may/maynot have said to you.  Otherwise you'll definitely be accurately summised by the word: Ignorant. smile

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Why are you so scared?  Some people know how to be ignorant more than others.  If any one changes track from a debate and engages in personal slanging, it means he has emptied his brain.
          I invited Kothari to that forum just not to let any Indian to be ignorant of what we are described.  Nothing wrong.

          1. weblog profile image59
            weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Relax Venu, many people here don't know about India and our history. What they do is to simply refer wikipedia and/or some books to get some rough knowledge. It's a waste of time and energy to be arguing with such people. Then, it's upto you smile

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Ms.web, advise taken.  When one's pride and self-respect are challenged by a less intelligent people, they should be taken up. But it is certainly a waste. It is like throwing pearls before swines.

              1. Junkster profile image61
                Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Since you seem to take delight in twisting people's words your wording there seems to imply that "mr Mark's people" are less intelligent.  Now that's a fairly insulting phrase right there and sincerely hope that it was a simple case of your meaning being lost in translation.

                Also that line about pearls and swines is pretty humourous, don't know what a pig would want with fancy pearls and such, possibly to snaffle them right up with the rest of it's dinner?

                Be careful with your words mr VENUGOPAL, from the evidence here it seems that Mr Mark is ten times more culturally exposed and accepting than yourself.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            VS - I called you ignorant, not the entire Indian nation.

            I am reasonably familiar with Indian culture, and have spent time in both India and Sri Lanka. I also lived for some years in Walsall, which as you may know is a town near Birmingham, with many, many Indian immigrants.

            One of my friends where I live now ( an Indian native) is instructing me in the art of Indian cooking (this being one of my favorite types of cooking.) And as a young man, I was pleased to discover that my earlobes and the shape of my nose are particularly appealing to Indian females, further expanding my knowledge of Indian culture. This is not the case in English culture, which seems to favor expensive cars and large incomes. lol

            Either way, I recognize an ignorant, right wing, war monger when I see one. Which is what I see in your every word, regardless of your ethnicity.

            1. weblog profile image59
              weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Mark, I'm just curious to know your opinion about South Indian Food, especially with rice smile

            2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Mr.Mark, you try to appease easy targets with your earlobes and nose shape.  No one is ignorant in India, as you think. They will understand your pretentions and go on.  Alright...  Do you deny the existence of God? Or do you accept?   In this field, I am nearer to you.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                There are ignorant people the world over, including in India. I myself am ignorant of many things.

                But you put words in my mouth. I did not call Indians ignorant - I called you ignorant.

                Of course I deny the existence of a god. Any fool can see there is no such thing.... lol

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Mark, when there is nothing like that, what can a fool see?  Is it to see it and then refuse it?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    All right. Describe god to me and I will tell you if I see this person.

              2. dingdong profile image59
                dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Nearer to what? Atheism?

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  No. Not atheism. some other thing... a religion with wisdom and without ignorance. Not religious fanaticism, which creates hatred, enemity, etc..  I dont want a religion which hates another religion. My religion (belief) is let all religions flourish !
                  In South India, people did not worship the present day gods in ancient times.  They worshipped nature.. Sun, wind, fire, rain, water.  If we all worship these things which are common to all, how can hatred and enemity enter our minds / hearts ?

                  1. dingdong profile image59
                    dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Nature does it's duty, doesn't matter whether you worship it or not smile

                  2. daeemomin profile image60
                    daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Nature is a creature, just like you and me. Nature is made for us:
                    Quran says:
                    “It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.” (Chapter: 2, verse: 29)
                    We should worship the creator not the creature like us.
                    “O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness; Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).” (Chapter: 2, Verse: 21, 22)
                    People worship nature because of their ignorance.
                    Religion doesn’t create hatred. Religious leaders who have become mediators between man and God create hatred. They don’t want their followers to study any other religion without bias. They want them to adhere to their religion blindly.
                    Only belief in one God can end hatred, belief that all human being are creatures of God. 
                    Prophet Muhammad in his last sermon said:
                    “All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action “

  41. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    Mr.Mark,  No need to go in search of god... it will end in our end.  Some will say he went to god; and some will say he died.  But no one should be hurt sentimentally and no one should die of hunger in this world.  If we ensure these, it is equal to worshipping god.  No one going to show you the god.  You have to find yourself.
    A fort-temple in South India build 500 years ago by Hindu kings remained without a deity. 28 years before,  Hindus restored the deity (a cylinder-shaped stone) and began worship.  It ensured the livelihood of at least a thousand poor people.  How can we deny god, even if it is not there?  It will be like hurting the sentiments of a thousand people or more.
    A normal man wants a peaceful living. For that, worshipping god, helping poor, educating the illiterates, feeding the hungry offering help when needed may be done.
    Denial of god will be taken as denial of livelihood of many.  So, for god's sake, dont be an atheist.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      As long as there are people who say they know what god wants and give me instructions as to how god says I should be - I will deny the existence of this god.

      I do not need to worship a god to help the poor, or educate the illiterates, feed the hungry, or do any other "good' thing.

      A normal man......

      Where is this creature?

      1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        1. You (I think!)
        2. Me (I am sure)

        1. dingdong profile image59
          dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Our parents, grand parents, ancestors brought up us that way, and hence it's being followed. Otherwise, do we really need the concept of God? Do you think people who are sincere to God even commit crimes? Do we actually need a super natural power to guide us? We are capable of helping others, ruling our own mind may seem hard, but it's not something impossible.

          1. 0
            Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I have to admit that my faith is religion has been shaken these past years with all the fanaticism. I'm almost about to bail especially considering the fact that good deeds don't play a role in religion anymore. It's all about john versus mark versus paul versus 1:2:456:789. Don't mean to be sarcastic, this is just what I feel.

  42. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    God believers... you have to bestow your thoughts in a more rational way.
    Think of these: One man standing behind god inside temple / church.  Another man goes in and pray god with the help of the first man (priest). The third one sitting outside and begging.... If it was god who created us, why so much disparity in his creations?  Why does the beggar beg from the devotee?  Why does he not pray god directly?  The answer will summarily be "It is his karma."  "God gives through another man", etc. 
    The god believers should not go on saying these.  Several high profile politicians, from President of India to an ordinary man fell at the feet of one man describing him as God.  Where did the God go when that man (Sankaracharya of Kanchipuram) was bitterly asked by a policeman not to sit on the court-verandah ?... when he was linked to a murder case?   
    It is the deed of a person in this birth itself that makes a man.  God has no part to play here.

    1. 0
      Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Perfectly stated and very well reasoned!

  43. THEMOUNTIANGIRL profile image59
    THEMOUNTIANGIRLposted 8 years ago

    How could anyone not believe in the existance of God...Just look around you. He is in everything. Yes, bad things happen to good people, people of God. I had a son die at nine months old, and i asked how could God do this to a baby. I got my answer years later. I became a counselor at Sav A Life and helped several girls/women make an important decission to not have an abortion. I also help those who have lost children to a number of reasons. I belive that everything happens for a reason the bad and the good. And if you belive in God then you know that you will see your loved ones again. I just could not have survived losing my son if I didn't belive in Him. Even if you believe in evolution or the Big Bang therory, how could it have happened with out God? I personally believe in God made all. But we christians have to put up with the few that doesn't believe, I always heard that majority rules. and maybe it does in some things but it doesn't were religion is concerned....when God is taken out of the picture, that is the beginning of the end. Don't give up.... God has a plan.
    Our hardships is what should make us stronger. God gave us FREE WILL. We can not expect Him to do all for us. This is a trial for true christians. When we give up FAITH that is when the other side wins.

    1. 0
      Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I'm sorry that your son died. It's not so much my personal life which is fine (something like say, thyroid cancer, is something I would ignore as being frivilous). Personally, I do believe in evolution and the big bang theory and it would most likely be created by God. He's just not a religion and I don't believe a person has to be a part of an organized religion to believe in God. I guess every side has to put up with different opinions but it's when the finger pointing starts that I get scared away. That and extremeism such as condemning a person like Obama in the most disingenious ways by saying he's a radical islamic extremeist (though I exempt people over 60 years old from criticism because they're not young).

      1. 0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I think it's pretty safe to say that when people started openly declaring Muslims to be our enemies in this election cycle after vehemently 'denouncing' Senator Barack Obama for being a Muslim who palls around with terrorists (suggesting that he is a terrorist or could be one), it became pretty clear to me what those on the Religious Right truly believe; that is that the enemy we fight in this Global War on Terror is not extremist Islam, but Islam itself.  This is something they have subconsciously believed all along and only during the election cycle did this stuff really come out.

        And yet when you seriously question someone who believes that Sen. Obama is shameful for attending Rev. Wright's Church for 20 years and also believes that Sen. Obama is somehow a Muslim too then the cognitive dissonance for that individual could only get worse I imagine...

        The sad thing is there were and still are many many people who call themselves Christians who believe exactly these two things.  It all amounts to believing that Sen. Obama is a Muslim who somehow attended a Christian Church (Wright's) for twenty years, somehow believes what Wright preached blindly and is yet still somehow a Muslim and then on top of that is somehow harboring terrorists like Bill Ayers and just somehow might be a secret terrorist himself.  It's just pathetic and it shows how easy it is for one issue voters on the Religious Right to sell their soul to the first movement that comes along that caters to their ideological bent (the neo-conservatives have a love relationship with the Religious Right).  The Anti-Islamicism and xenophobia wasn't a problem even immediately after Sept 11th.  That hatred was nursed, on conservative talk radio, in Churches, and in the bigoted rantings of idiot preachers on the likes of the Trinity Broadcasting Network to the point where people genuinely began to believe that Osama Bin Laden was a true Muslim and represented the true vision of Islam.

        That is about as stupid as saying people who go bomb abortion clinics in the name of Jesus represent what all Christians truly believe.  Yet people see no contradiction in this, if they are on the Religious Right.  They would say such a thing is incomparable, and that of course no one would believe that an abortion bomber represents the mainstream belief of Christians, yet if they were anti-Islamic and xenophobic they would have to maintain that Bin Laden represents the true goals of Islam nonetheless.  They cannot and will not see the extreme conscientious stupidity that is involved in these bizarre feats of double standardry and cognitive dissonance.

        1. 0
          Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I agree, Palin was trying to turn people against Obama so McCain could win the election and people bought into it (unfortunately). I don't think she's racist because she married an Escamo, but it's unfortunate that she went there. I'm a Catholic and proud that they didn't nurse racism at  the pulpit. Not proud they the preached against prop 8, but proud they didn't racially bait. I'm also unrepentant of my Obama vote though I was made to feel like an outcast by some because I was open about my political views (I'm unrepentantly honest as well).

  44. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    Ms.Mountaingirl, you go on saying "god gave that... god gave this." "god is everywhere".  But you are not showing it to anybody.  Please show god to others, at least to have faith in you, if not god. I dont deny god; nor it is my work.  My request to others is: if god is common to all, then why do you argue so much? Are you his advocate?  How are you profited by him?  It is upto everyone to worship or deny god. You need not bother.  Continuous worship and devoting a major part of our time is wasteful.  In that time, you may do some useful, constructive work.
    M.girl may go to worship. No need to argue without showing god to others.

    1. daeemomin profile image60
      daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      you ask her to show you God..then show me the air, electricity and gravitational force!!

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        TRANCE


        Most around me live in a trance,
        Having no idea of your cosmic dance.

        When does everyone get to know you?
        Why reveal yourself only to a few?

        It causes me so much pain,
        When I talk of you all in vain.

        In the middle of the ocean, in nowhere,
        You showed me your presence everywhere.

        Absolute delight and utter confusion,
        From the moment of our fusion.

        Countless in front are your entity,
        All having an individual identity.

        You are made of such fine light, love tissue,
        No beginning, no end, an ageless issue.

        At times I feel like a master,
        Then on the other hand an utter disaster.

        God is playing this big game and doesnt reveal himself to everyone,he chooses who and when.

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I dont deny god or is it my work. Worship should come from ones' heart; it should not be thrust on others.  Air, light, sound etc. are around everyone!  I have already said earlier that nature can be called god; others' satisfaction can be called.

          1. daeemomin profile image60
            daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            what about gravitational force? why do you believe in it?

          2. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            No one can be forced to believe in God.

      2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Air can be obtained from fans;  electricity can be obtained from power stations, even from small batteries;  gravitational force comes from the centre of the earth.  From where does god come or how can we get him?  Dont mingle them.  Answer correctly.
        I am not indebted to you to show air, electricity, and g.force.  Likewise, you are not indebted to me to show god.  If one wants to see god, let him search for god. If one continuously search for god, one day, he may see god.  Or at least the problem of argument can be averted!

        1. dingdong profile image59
          dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Question is that whether we should spend time in search of God or not smile

          1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
            VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Spend any amount of time in search of god, if it is useful to you and to others.  Particularly, women should be pious and godfearing. Then only our next generation will be good.  Atheism is not for women.

            1. dingdong profile image59
              dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              No, Thanks smile

              By the way...I didn't know that male chauvinism is even ruling Atheism lol

            2. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              lol lol lol

              Atheism is not for women lol

              Are they not capable of making their own minds up? lol lol

              Although, I notice you now have a god that is to be feared lol

              Did I say ignorant?.................

              1. dingdong profile image59
                dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Not sure what made Venu come to THAT conclusion tongue

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Mr.Mark, Women are mentally stronger than men.  They make a good home. They produce children and ensure survival of humanity.  God fearing women can make a peaceful home.  If they become atheists, then all the terrorism will be at home, before our eyes.  Mr.Mark, please dont encourage atheism in women.  You will also be affected.

                  Ms.dingdong, what conclusion did I come? About atheism and women? Ask your elders, your mother, your grandmother... whether atheism is for women.  The basics of Indian society and culture is based on certain principles.  Ms.ding, dont think differently.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, I remember the basics of Indian culture regarding women.

                    We had quite a few women burned to death by their families for leaving forced marriages with older men in Birmingham.

                    You might want to be careful adopting some aspects of Western culture. It does not leave room for these sort of practices.

                    Personally, I prefer a woman with a brain she is able to use, rather than an unpaid servant. Although............................ I do see the benefits big_smile

                  2. dingdong profile image59
                    dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    If you think threatening a kid by the name of God/Satan is home-making, you are wrong. Should we not think differently? Why not? We are not sheep, we are humans; we always have to think in different ways; we must re-consider instead of following blindly whatever we have been taught for long time smile

                  3. Junkster profile image61
                    Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    That has to be the biggest example of sugaring the pill I've ever heard!  So from that questionable logiv I'm to believe that women are smarter than men (I agree there on some level) but they are not allowed to have their own belief/thoughts/voice for fear of "terrorism in the home"?!

                    I suppose you still believe they shouldn't have the vote and should be seen and not heard?

                    Like others have said I'd be careful trying get all holier than thou and then saying something as preposterous as that.

                    Calling people who are atheists ignorant in my book is backward, by making a decision for themselves and not blindly following a faith through compliance is ignorant in my book, I don't argue with people following a family tradition of being a member of one faith, I have no greivances with any faith whatsoever but making your own choice whether that leaves you as an atheist, hindu, jew, catholic, sikh or whatever then if anything you're very much informed, not ignorant.

          2. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Offcourse otherwise tyou are never going to live properly.Its only after realisation of God your your self that one lives correctly.smile

            1. dingdong profile image59
              dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I don't see/feel a God, but I'm aware that I'm living properly smile

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                It gets better ,much much better smile

                1. dingdong profile image59
                  dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  What and How?

                  1. 0
                    Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Though, frankly, I'm considering atheism because, well, why should a man have monopoly over a theism? It presents a new challenge for me...I like it.

                  2. mohitmisra profile image61
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    You look at life and everyone very differently from before.You actually know the One in all. smile
                    Then you allow the cosmos to guide you.I realise this small brain of mine is unable to understand the vastness and perfection of god.I was given the signs to become a poet and I followed it.A lot of people mocked me when I was writing ,asked me who the hell do I think I am -Shakespeare?
                    I had faith in the sense the universe cannot harm me and I cannot think 5-25 years ahead like the universe does.I get glimpses of the future but faith and doubt go hand in glove.I told friends I will get ranked  1 years back when I was writing but no one understood.
                    You just merge with the universe -the perfection and then work for your souls satisfation or God.
                    Its when you really understand who and why am I here?

  45. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    Dear friend daeemomin, it needs a lot of patience to read your long comments. I think the HP authority is your friend.  My comments, even if is shorter, about 1/4th of yours are not accepted.  May be he thinks I am ignorant (!)  Wiser people will show regard to all opinions.
    You pray Allah and I pray my god. As more generations pass by, some other religion may spring up and say their god is supreme. That does not mean the old religion is less important.
    As a friend, my advise to you is to read some other religions' literature also. Then only you can see unanimity in religions. I have gone to mosques with muslim friends and prayed with them;  I have gone to churches with my christian friends and worshipped.  I find no difference.  In all those places, I get peace of mind.

    1. weblog profile image59
      weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with this point, however I can't bear the noise+air pollution in hindu temples during some special occasions(no peace)!

      1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Noise, air pollution, no peace... during special occasions only. But these occurs in other places of worship also during special occasions.  Why do you go to a Hindu temple during religious celebrations. Finding peace amidst sound and noise...?

        1. weblog profile image59
          weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know about other religions' shrines. I just told you what I knew, because I was grown up as Hindu, and that's what my certificate says even though I don't like any religious label wink

          I go to temples, just because I love the architectures and of course I like the peace as you mentioned. I avoid visiting on occasions smile

        2. daeemomin profile image60
          daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Not in mosque. Never

    2. daeemomin profile image60
      daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You don’t have enough patience to read my comments. I would how you would have read any religious scripture or literature on any religion. That is why you only know the customs and traditions you see around you.
      Allah is not my God. He is your God as well, the only God. All don’t say that nature worship is wrong because it is old religion. In fact Islam is the oldest religion in the world which was first brought by Adam the messenger of God and the first person to set foot on this earth.
      I have read other religions but the same is not the same with you. You seem to have read no religion. In fact I doubt whether you studied your religion or not. So my advise to you is to read all religion not only Islam. You won’t see unanimity. You will see some similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam because they come from a single source.
      You said that you visited both mosques and churches and you didn’t find any difference. I would like to suggest you to visit once to both places.
      In church you will find a statue of Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) and in mosque you will never find any statue of Prophet Muhammad, neither will you find that anywhere in the world.
      In church you will find a mediator between God and man. In mosque you won’t find any mediator.
      In church you find bible in which you will find full of contradictions (only if you study the bible sincerely. But you won’t. Because you don’t have enough patience to read my comments) 
      In mosque you will find the Quran in which you won’t find any contradiction. (If you get enough time and courage to study it)
      One more thing… you only gave me your advice. You didn’t give the answer to my question. Whether creator should be worshipped or the creature?

      1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this
        1. daeemomin profile image60
          daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this
          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Then why we (creatures) should worship nature?  - Allah is also there in nature as in Islam you/we are to treat the animals with respect, nature is also to be treated with respect. 

            This is not just the religion (belief) in Islam but elsewhere with or without religion.  We shouldn't worship things that have no life nature is in Allah because in nature Allah works, just as in our human spirit Allah works.  A statue of a goat can't talk, it can't move, it can't make miracles.
            Likewise talking to nature cannot make miracles but it can raise your spirit and through nature is to Allah, so speak to nature as you speak to Allah as it is with respect to Creation and a love that runs deap.
            Just as a dog loves his owner, a dog barks but we don't understand it what it is saying.  The wind blows but we don't understand what it is saying but we know that when a dog barks, it is saying something and when the wind blows it is saying something.
            So in that Spirit Allah is there, you don't have to understand it exactly because we speak a different language but we know the message.  The dog needs to pee or there is a storm coming. 

            The humans spirit says, I must take the dog out and I must tell the people there is a storm coming.  It is not a miracle to understand it, it is a miracle because it happened. 

            Muhammud (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) said that a tree is more obedient than a human.  When the wind blows the tree moves, it doesn't argue with it's creator.  When it's leaves fall it doesn't cry because it already knows that in the spring it will have new leaves. 

            So when you hear the wind blow and it feels a little warm, take notice and thank Allah for his message, when a dog barks, thank Allah for the message, when a human cries thank Allah for the message because if we weren't given a heart to understand why a human cries, or the wind blows or a dog barks, then we haven't got a thing. 

            You should never argue over the Creator, Allah just is and peace is here if we stop talking and just start to listen. smile

            but down give a dog some pearls while a little boy is starving, and don't slaughter a calf who can grow and give milk. Don't hate what another man loves but love the other man for loving. and don't burn down a forest so that no more trees will grow and don't build big boats from the Earth for which only a few can come aboard.smile

  46. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    Good argument, daeemomin !  I really feel asleep when seeing your long, long comments. Only because it is long.  Is getting sleep a disorder?  Please consult a doctor. 
    Arabia to Australia means not universality.  Such a very long thing.  I would have said more; but land ends in Australia. Arrogance....  what is it?  Is it saying that Islam is the only.... Allah is the only..... ?  Then where should other older religions and gods go?  Shall I send them to your country?

  47. bill yon profile image51
    bill yonposted 8 years ago

    i am the tree's the wind the earth i am the ocean the fish the animals i am the birds i am man i am the sun the moon the stars I am the universe.we live in the body of GOD.GOD is everything from the stars to the planets to man to animals all the way down to atoms.GOD IS EVERYTHING.no matter how hard we try we will never really understand,until we leave this earth.

    1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mr.bill, man created god, only to get peace of mind and do some meditation in times of mental confusions.  Man tries to safeguard his own creation naturally.  When did god said "I am the wind, earth, ocean, fish, animals, birds, sun, moon, earth...." ?   We should not link our imaginations in attempting to justify god..  Because some like you go on expanding imaginations, the whole concept of god is denied by a group which you call atheists. Imaginary descriptions help only to create hatred. Let it be just called GOD. That is all.

      1. dingdong profile image59
        dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        There you are big_smile

      2. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        God created man and not the other way around.

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          If that is so, why does man let god wander in oceans, air, sun, moon, wind, etc.  Why doesn't he keep god in his heart and mind.?  After creating god, he has attributed some good qualities to god.  Then he is distracting himself.  Will god not punish him for his sins?

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            God is the oceans,air,sun ,moon and wind.God is also in the heart of man.

            The light that shines beyond the stars,
            Is the same in my heart.

            God guides us all the time,
            In not paying attention there will be a fine.

            Man learns a lot through pain.Its the way God teaches the soul-with love and with pain.

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              You keep on saying this for every query !  That god which is everywhere including our hearts, and beyond stars, is not coming before our eyes !  Why ? What is his hesitation to come before his own creations ?  Is it indifference ? 
              If god fines me, I will pay it from what he has given to me !

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                When does god come?
                When the madness stops, when death becomes.

                How do I see god?
                With your eyes closed and with your eyes open.

                What have I to do with god?
                You are his creation, you are a part of him.

                When do I see, meet god?
                Whenever you really decide to,
                When you want nothing.

                Sufi saying- I was looking for myself and I found God,I was looking for God and I found myself.
                I have seen God or found him or myself. smile

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  More confusing.. !   
                  Should I close or open my eyes ? One thing only is possible.
                  I want to see god.. How can I see him when I want nothing.
                  When the Sufi looked for God, he found himself. When he looked himself (how?), he saw god. Is it fair to show something else and deny what we are seeking ?

                  1. mohitmisra profile image61
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    God exists inside and outside of you.Become desireless.God says if you want that have it and not me.When you want nothing only then can you have me.In order to conquer yourself you must allow the universe or god to conquer you.You are God. smile
                    Would suggest with your eyes closed first,then automatically you will see god ,the light in all.

      3. daeemomin profile image60
        daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        [quote=VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA
        man created god




        "God" created man. Man created "gods"

        1. dingdong profile image59
          dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Well, why does your God allow man to create such copies? Why diversities? Why war, pain and sorrows because of religions?

          1. daeemomin profile image60
            daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            .

            God has given us freedom of choice to see whether we obey Him or not. Those who obey will be rewarded with paradise. And those who disobey Him will be punished.
            War, pain and sorrows are result of man’s deed. Some times religious bias persuades him to do all these things and sometimes he does these things because of other reasons.
            Hatred comes when people don’t want to see what other religions say. They follow their religion because they are by birth Hindu or Muslim or Christian.
            Islam doesn’t demand us to believe. It invites us to believe. It urges on pondering over the realities.
            Quran says:
            To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things. Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,- Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire. "Our Lord! any whom Thou dost admit to the Fire, Truly Thou coverest with shame, and never will wrong-doers Find any helpers! "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous. "Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thine apostles, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment: For Thou never breakest Thy promise."  (Chapter:3, verse:189,194)

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              God has given us freedom of choice to see whether we obey Him or not-true.

              The free will the choice we have is to align with God.Then I also believe he does what he wants with me ,I really have no choice.smile

              1. daeemomin profile image60
                daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                No. it is not correct.
                He can do with you what He wants. But He has given you a freedom to do what you want.
                Quran says:
                “He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed” (Chapter: 67, verse: 2)

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  What I want he wants,what he wants I want.

                  1. daeemomin profile image60
                    daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    What do you want to say? Do you want to say that man has no freedom of choice?

        2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Mr.daeemomin,  you are again intelligent and objective.  Happy to accept that "man created gods".  I am taking what is just and rational in your statement.

          1. daeemomin profile image60
            daeemominposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            The first part of my statement is equally just and rational. You will accept it, if only you think. There is no rationale in denying one God.
            I always accepted that man created “gods”.
            You don’t believe in God simply because you don’t see Him.

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Correct God is all including nature and we can tap into it. True death is the only way to comprehend god perfectly.

      Death is our friend,
      Where there is no trend,
      Why fear ,
      It is really near. smile

  48. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    Mr.Mark, Mr.Junkster, Ms.ding: A family is a unified social unit where we share our joy and sorrow together. If there are two different thoughts, how can a family be peaceful? Then where can we get that peace?  After letting a wife to have a different thought, and then weeping like "no peace of mind"....? what life is it?   It can be avoided, if women does not have a different thinking.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      If there are no different thoughts, how does this family grow and learn?

      I do not want a wife I can "let have a different thought." She is entitled to make her own. And maybe I can learn something new also. Albeit at the cost of "peace of mind." smile

      I certainly do not want a family that bases their entire thought processes around mine. What if I am wrong?

      You seem stuck in old thoughts and only accept what already fits your pre-conceived notions.

      How do you learn new things?

      1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
        VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Will different thoughts help family grow and learn? Certainly not.
        If you let your wife to have a different thought, you will be the loser. Not she.
        Dont be wrong. You will then satisfy with a family based on your thought.
        Old thoughts. Yes. My ancestors lived a successful life, and so do I.
        New things are not confined in potholes. Old thoughts never prevent new learnings. Go to
                Japan. Their social discipline make them proud.

        1. Junkster profile image61
          Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I think you'll be strongly opposed here by a ratio of around 1000:1 big_smile

          1. dingdong profile image59
            dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I hereby want to remind you about Periyar, because I have seen you talking about him in these forum threads. Tell me, don't you know why he wanted Indian women to be well educated? If you are denying the rights of a woman(basically to think on her own), in any family - I'm not pointing to you personally, mind it - many of our men are like that, so what does it actually mean by the family growth? How does it even help the society if every family is being lead by the same male-chauvinistic thought?

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              My dear sister ding, thanks for remembering me with Periyar. I want Indian women as well as men to be well educated. Family growth and women's rights are separate. As soon as marriage takes place, a man and woman become one as per our tradition. Then why do you separate them?  Western style is fit for west only and not for India. Our customs, tradition and culture treat a family as one unit. There can be no difference in them as we dream. Man only is protecting women and children.  If a man is attacked, the woman or his child cannot save him. But if that woman or child is under attack, the man will certainly save him.

        2. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          My wife is half-Japanese. smile

          I once called you ignorant, but I think I may have understated my case.......

          1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
            VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I have ignored it because it is not worth taking. Your rational arguments attract me.  That is why I am replying you. But you feel happy to "ignore" others.  Keep it...  Happy to be called ignorant by people like you.

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Congratulations. She must be disciplined.

          2. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            another karate angle wink

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Friend Mohit, I dont know karate; even if he comes for it, I will follow the Indian way and bow before him. Because he is half way in my line, ie., rationalist thinking.
              Just he is fond of using the word "ignorant" whoever challenges him in an argument. That is all. Let him enjoy ! We shall take him as friend.

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                We are debating,not getting physical wink dont worry about the ignorant bit I know you are not. smile

              2. Junkster profile image61
                Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                There's nothing rationalist about saying women should not have their own independant thoughts, oyu've already made that abundantly clear.

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Mr.Junk, no two persons can think alike 100%   We differ on women's rights completely. But we somehow are nearer on religion and god.

                  1. Junkster profile image61
                    Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    For once I agree with you on some level!  No two people can indeed think alike.  Well done, but you made that sound like a terrible thing in earlier posts and unfortunately that makes us very different when it comes to gods and religions.

                    You see I have no religious beliefs, you do.  There couldn't be a greater dividie there my friend smile

                    I will actually say that I won't bring up the subject of women's rights again since it's not conducive to this religious discussion, as abhorrent as I find it that people still have this archaic belief that women are beneath men in thoughts and opinions.

                    So no more moaning from me big_smile

                    Back to the latest discussion I find Mohitmisra's reasoning rather interesting, and he may have found another important point over the jesus: was he a man or god?  He is revered as the son of god and in my view (being completely unbiased) that would make him a god himself, or at least the god inherit?

                    I have always wondered when did they decide that the stories of the bible should end, or when to finish off the book and say "right, publish it!"  You see I've forgotten my earlier catholic upbringing and often wonder why the bible isn't "still going"...strange I know but I think it's a good discussion point for the catholics/christians out there smile

    2. Junkster profile image61
      Junksterposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Mr Venugopal,

      That statement was stunningly and alarmingly offensive to about 50% of all human beings on the planet.

      What kind of backward indoctrination made you believe that a woman having a different thought (and this seems much more general than the discussed topic of religion) causes all manner of disruption.

      If my family all thought the smae as myself to be honest that owuld drive me insane, as would be the case with my friends too.  You seem to languish in some existance where everyone subscribes to one "thought" and noone dare quesiton or rebel against this.

      I'd like to ask oyu in that case do you believe that one family as a "unified social unit" has the same "thought" as another family living next door?  And if they don't is that also a bad thing that brings about "terrorism in the home" and "weeping like no peace of mind"?

      Apologies about being a Quoteasaurus Rex there, didn't want to misinterpret Mr Venugopal's words

  49. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Really stupid joke...

    The Bible is like junk mail.  You keep throwing it out, but still there is more.  So you go to the United States Post Office and ask them to stop sending you junk mail, and they tell you...Too bad!  lol


    smile

  50. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago

    My dear friend Mohit,  I was thrilled to read a portion of Mahabharatha in your last comment here. When I was young, 50 years ago, I used to go and sit a whole night hearing Mahabharatha story, told by revered religious spokesmen. I, at that time got a resolve in myself not to err anywhere and do my duty perfectly. I completed my service with that resolve.
    Now I am living peacefully with my family, telling old stories to my children, (who are software engineers and management professional).  Mahabharatha is worth a thousand religious books..... the longest story yet in the whole world. The whole of India is bound as a single nation, (whoever comes to rule us), by the power of the two epics, Mahabharatha and Ramayana.  They are the real binding force on our society.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Dear Venugopal.I love the Ramayana and Mahabharata.They are masterpieces which defy time.I love Krishna and his sayings.smile Each has a part or job to do and must do it the best he or she can smile

      1. dingdong profile image59
        dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Nothing but great interesting STORIES big_smile

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Are they stories for you? I dont think so. They are our souls, our life, our culture, our civilisation.  The Hindus' holy book "Bagavatgita" derives from Mahabaratha. Dont belittle them. If they do not fit your tastes, please leave it.

          1. weblog profile image59
            weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Why are you getting disturbed?

            As far as there is no historical evidence, we can only consider them as stories. Please note that pushing your points on someone else won't work here. I see the moral in those epics, even though I don't get deep into the religious/spritual viewpoints. You see them in different way, DD sees as stories. Don't make it complicated. Everyone is not the same smile

            BTW, see the hangout forum.

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Historical evidence: Indraprasth is Delhi. Gurukshetra is in Haryana.   Ayodhya in UP is Ayodhya where Rama was king. What more?  Every religion has a book and a holy place. We also have them. Why should it be denied?

              1. weblog profile image59
                weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Not so valid. I know those places are still there, still we have no proof that shows Ramayanam and Mahabharatham were inspired on real incidents. Moreover, have you not heard of Lankan people calling Ravana, the Lankeswar? Ravana is their hero, they will argue he was right. What to do? We still have controversies.

                I barely care for the evidences, to be more frank I don't care at all. As told already, I just accept the morals, I think it's enough to me smile

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Ravana was a great Shiva bhakt who had undergone a lot of meditation and penance .He became very powerfull and started misusing his power.This is why Rama came to earth to restore this situation. smile

                  1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    My father named me Ravana. My mother named me Sivagnanam. I remained in the former name in my early years and changed to the later,  not to be engulfed in controversies. No one has the patience to understand both names are closely connected.

                  2. weblog profile image59
                    weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Mohit, again it's not historical evidence, you get them from religious books. Exaggerations and imaginary additions are highly possible. Valmiki wrote the Ramayana, Kambar translated the same in tamil which was different story that consists some modifications. Apart from these, tamil poet Kannadasan wrote a book named Ravana Kaviyam(Venu might know) in which Ravana is the hero. So, where does it take to? Simply, I don't want any confusions because of such controversies - I repeat it, I see the morals, I'm not ready to analyse whether the books teach them in right way or not smile

                2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Accepting the morals is enough.. that is why Mahabharatha and Ramayana were written. 
                  But web, you have proved a true Indian.  Indians never accept the truth around them till they reach their old age. I wont complicate further.

                  1. weblog profile image59
                    weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks. Atheism and patriotism are entirely different. I have no confusion. Although the great Indian epics give us some good morals, however I can't say they are acceptable word by word. That's my stand about them smile

                    Adding a side note, they are hindu religious books. Hinduism is not sole property of India, thus there would be no link to patriotism in following those books!

          2. dingdong profile image59
            dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Definitely not a good example of our culture. Can our current society accept such a Paanchaali and some men who have many wives(like Krishna)..?

            I don't see Rama was 100% perfect, if he was so Sita wouldn't have walked on fire to prove her chastity.

            Interesting stories...get it? wink

            1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
              VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Lord Krishna did have 2 wives only, Rukmani and Sathyabama. His childhood mischiefs were 
              not repeated in his adulthood. Those mischiefs happen everywhere.
              Panchali had to live like that only because of tongue-slip.

              You doubt even Rama....? Great sin !  How many percent was he perfect.. please evaluate. My dear child, Sita's chastity has nothing to do with Rama's perfection. She had to prove her chastity before her countrymen. So they both became gods. You would have said otherwise if she refused to walk into the fire.

              1. dingdong profile image59
                dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Hmmm call me a 'sinner'...throw me in hell, fry me in oil pans...Religious jokes, right? lol

                Panchali married 5 men because of a tongue-slip and she happily slept with them for that sole reason...Great tongue

                Ok, I'm not sure what can make a man perfect when he lets his wife prove her chastity before his countrymen just because she was abducted by a monster, it's a wonder that Ram was not even capable of convincing his countrymen instead of hurting his wife! mad

                Why all the fuzz? I'm not ready for anymore arguements based on those funny story books. Do you have something else?

                1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image59
                  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I have many things to argue..in this case...   but not for you.

                  1. dingdong profile image59
                    dingdongposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm always ready, being these forums are open, you can't restrict me coming anytime into the discussion even if you don't want me to. Thanks wink

        2. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Thre is a big difference between an interesting story and a masterpiece which shows one how to live life correctly and gain liberation. smile

 
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