Any idea of who created that great graphic? I have seen in bumper sticker but know nothing of its origin.
i have no idea...but i DO know that the reason CHRIST is falling out of christmas is because HE never was in it. CHRIST and christmas have nothing to do with each other. it is a holiday that was celebrated long before CHRIST was born. by sun god worshipers. some early pope decided to bring pagans into the church by combining CHRISTS birth with the pagan celebration. same goes for easter. just because CHRIST was crucified during the pagans easter (named after the goddess ishtar) festivities, people decided it was a festival in CHRISTs honor. not so. in truth, CHRIST was not born in the winter nor did HE get crucified in the spring.
I can't imagine anything more divisive. At the one time of year we can pretty much all come together in peace and love here is someone insisting that everyone follow a particular belief and celebrate a myth instead of accepting each other as they are.
Just another strike against the far right Christian coalition that demands everyone believe as they do.
The word Christmas is actually short for Christ's mass and was intended as an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus the Christ into this world. When you use the title Christ it is the Greek translation of the word messiah which means "annointed one". In the Old Testament they annointed prophets, priests and kings and Jesus is all three, as well as the Son of God. So when we celebrate Christmas, what we are actually doing is celebrating the birth of the messiah into this world, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus our Saviour.
This day, intended to be a Christian celebration, has been taken by the world and commercialized and generalized into merely a time to come together in peace and love and robbed of its true meaning. Most people don't even think of peace and love anymore. They wonder what Santa Claus has put under their Christmas tree or in their stockings. And then they wonder how they will pay off their credit cards the rest of the year because they have overspent their budgets.
It is interesting that the world has stolen a Christian holiday and made it into something it was never intended to be, then they call us divisive. If you want a holiday celebrating merely peace, harmony and love, why not choose a different day all together? Just don't choose Yom Kippur or the month of Ramadan. Then you'd have similar problems to what you now face.
LOL! Yet, another Christian who doesn't know that they stole another holiday to make it their own and then tells others to find another day.
Christmas was first called the Feast of the Nativity by the Church and was introduced in the 4th Century as was mentioned by someone in an earlier post. It wasn't changed to Christ's Mass until later on. So the time of year that Christmas is celebrated was indeed "pagan" in origin.
It hasn't been stolen from the Christian, but I agree it has become seriously commercialized. But since it's current form was mostly influenced by the USA and everyone likes to claim that the USA was build on Christian foundations, That would make todays version of Christmas something directly resulting from those who claim to be Christians. Not the Pagans, Jewish, Muslims, but the Christian.
And did you know that Christmas didn't become a recognized Holiday in the USA until July 1874.
The celebration that we call Christmas would not even be around if it weren't for the Christ child that has come to be associated with it. The pagan religions that the season was borrowed from do not even exist today. This season is only remembered at all because of Christ.
The Feast of the Nativity of Jesus Christ, as we have it today was established in the mid-fourth century after the last great persecution around 330 A.D. It was originally celebrated on December 23rd. Early on, the Feast of the Nativity was celebrated along with the Feast of the Epiphany. According to St.Clement of Alexandria, who lived from A.D. 150 to 215, the Feast of Ephiphany broke off from the Feast of Nativity around A.D. 200.
The reason Christmas wasn't celebrated in early America was because much of the decadence associated with the pagan aspect of the holiday had came over from Europe. Indeed, for a short time in the 17th century, Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces vowed to rid Europe of its decadence and for a short period outlawed Christmas.
The Pilgrims, who came to America in 1620, are responsible for Christmas not being celebrated early in our country's history. That is because they were even more orthodox in their beliefs than Cromwell, and didn't like the pagan aspect which the world outside of the Christian church continued to celebrate. It was actually outlawed in Boston for a while. There were, however, groups that continued to celebrate it. Captain John Smith and his followers were among them.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact Congress was in session December 25th 1789. This was the first Christmas under America's new Constitution. Christmas was finally declared a federal holiday on June 26th 1870.
This holiday, no matter how you try to talk about the pagan festivals that it has replaced, is here because Christ was born into this world. He is the reason for the season. No serious student of history can doubt this.
I understand the reason it is now called Christmas. And it was first called the Feast of the Nativity ( you are right brought in by the Pope around the middle of the 4th Century which I already stated).
Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December so why would a a celebration of his birth be done on that day, instead of his actual date of birth. Either in the spring (birthing season) or in the fall (preparing for wintering the animal). Which is what the bible says. He was born while shepards were tending their flocks. Animals in winter shelters wouldn't require tending outdoors.
He was also born during a Census. The romans typically would do a census around the final harvest time. (September-October timeframe)
I would think that the Birth of Jesus would be more accurate being celebrated around say Halloween time of year.
But of course all of the Pagan traditions celebrated the Birth/Rebirth of the Sun around the Winter solstice timeframe. And if I wanted to convert pagans to a Christian belief system, I would also have placed the celebration of the birth of the "Son of God" around this time of year as well, regardless of when he was actually born.
And yes, there are still those who still hold to those Old Pagan beliefs from around the 3rd and 4th century. But just as it is in Christianity, it might not be exactly what it was when it was first started, but the base faith is still observed.
Yule, the Winter Solstice, Saturnia are still celebrated by many still to this day. The numbers might not match those of the Christian belief, but by those who believe in the Old Pagan Ways, these celebrations are held instead of Christmas.
I have no problem with non-Christians celebrating Dec. 25th. Instead of all the confusion, maybe they should just refer to it as "Winter Holiday" or "Festivus" instead of "Christ's mass."
Non-Christian believers do call it something else. It is called Yule, Winter Solstice, Saturnia.
It is some right wing Christian types that complain that people are saying Happy Holidays instead of saying Merry Christmas, that you hear the Non-Christian believer types using the Merry Christmas terms.
(General Statement) It would be nice if everyone would actually study the history behind the Holidays that they observe to have a better understanding of what it is and why it is celebrated. Many have no clue about the when, why or how Christmas even came about and started becoming a celebrated holiday.
LOL! That's like allowing your neighbor to borrow "your" lawnmower after you took it from him last summer.
Not sure I'm following your logic. Yes, I know all about the history of Christmas and the intertwining of religious and pagan traditions.
Then, you would be well aware of the fact people celebrated this holiday long before the mythical Christ had anything to do with it. It was actually celebrated for real reasons rather than religious fantasies.
Which is why I'm so happy you have no problem non-believers celebrate this holiday.
I made myself a promise to stay the heck out of this part of the site, but I keep getting drawn back in..
I agree that it is extraordinarily ignorant for Christians to complain, however mildly, about others usurping "their" holiday. It's one of the reasons that I wish religious history were taught in public schools - I think we'd have far less fundamentalism and far more tolerance.
However, one thing to note about solstice celebrations: these almost certainly always had religious significance, so the Christian "theft" was really more a matter of substituting one religion for another. From an atheists point of view, worshipping Mithra and worshipping Jesus are exactly the same thing, so that "theft" really didn't change much for those who willingly or unwillingly embraced Christianity.
Our secular usage (which involves far more than just atheists) is a more radical shift, so perhaps the Christian argument has a bit more validity than we might care to give it.
Just a thought.. now I suppose I'll have just about everyone disliking me :-)
I think it's interesting that so many Christians want to keep Christ in Christmas....yet how much thinking do they do about Christ during Christmas? I have yet to meet one that actually spent more time doing that than doing the "traditional" Christmas stuff...but that's just me...
The point is simple. No Christ, No Christmas celebration. No reason to argue this in the first place, because there would not be a celebration to argue over. The Christmas celebration is alive and well today, not because of its pagan origins, but because Christ is associated with it.
<--- coveted double laughie award
Perhaps, the point is too simple.
Just ask yourself some questions. How many people even know about the pagan origins of this season? If you took the more than one billion people away who celebrate Christmas how much would it be talked about every year, or even known about worldwide? It would die out quickly as a holiday of any significance.
Apart from most Christians?
If we took the Christ out of Christmas, the entire world might celebrate once again.
The Christ part would certainly die out quickly, but the holiday would always remain.
Of course it would remain. Taking out Christ won't affect Santa, the elves or Frosty one iota. It won't stop anyone from shooting their eye out with a BB gun and it won't stop Rudolph's nose from glowing. It wouldn't even shut down the tree farms that let nothing get larger than 8 feet or so.
I haven't questioned a billion people, but my opinion is that Christ is by now a very small part of Christmas. To some it is of supreme importance, but to the majority Santa, Rudolph and Frosty are more in their minds at this time of year.
I see your point when it comes to what Christmas has become, but not its original intent when it was first celebrated in the 4th century. As I stated earlier, Christmas has become a commercial holiday that has been exploited for profit. Which is a shame since it neither celebrates what the atheists or the Christians are arguing over. It is merely a way to boost the troubled economy every 25th of December at the expense of those who really can't afford it. They spend most of the year paying back what they've put on their Visas and Mastercards to buy presents that will soon be forgotten shortly after the Christmas tree comes down.
Sadly, this is very true. But some of us still hold to the true purpose. Maybe if we keep true to our self and our "guns", more will come around.
So the plan is to keep annoying people who don't share your beliefs and they'll come around?
Isn't that typical of both the religious and atheists? It seems that way here on the forums.
Really? It doesn't seem that way to me at all. I'm not trying to convert anyone.
Really? I don't know, I don't see too much difference between your argument or theirs. But, those of us who aren't incredibly sure that we are so right about cosmic questions that most intelligent people accept we have no definitive answers for understand that we will never be able to stop you guys from prattling on.
We agnostics are exceptionally tolerant.
That's one way of looking at it. From my point of view, you are no different than a theist. You don't understand why gods are impossible and neither do they.
Ok. But, I don't think you know what I think. It's simply arrogance that drives the arguments for or against the existence of anything outside of our understanding of reality. And ego that claims knowledge the rest of the world accepts we don't have.
I find you guys fascinating, but happy I'm reading your posts and not having these conversations face to face. My smirk would probably irritate both sides who insist they know what they are talking about.
But the facts are that I DO know what I'm talking about. You can smirk all you want without changing that. There are no gods and both those who say they are and those who say "we don't know" are exhibiting the same ignorance and primitive thinking.
If you need to believe you know what you are talking about, then you should believe it. If you need to attempt to convince others to believe you know what you are talking about, you should do it. We must all do what we think is best.
No, the plan is...to do what we can for others who are less fortunate than ourselves. And I am not talking about praying for them. Actually getting out and lending a helping hand.
As I have told you before, I am not Christian. But I do have my personal beliefs, which one would notice I don't push on others.
Godtalk...dont you think, that if GOD wanted us to celebrate the birth of HIS Son, HE would have given us the exact date of HIS birth? GOD gave man the festivals HE wanted them to observe and keep...so it just makes sense that if HE wanted HIS Sons birthday observed and kept as well, HE would have told us to...however I notice that exact date is not in the bible...so maybe GOD kept it out knowing what man would do. and as you can see today, by the many non christians who also keep and observe this festival, it really has nothing to do with CHRIST...just the fact that is titled CHRISTmas is the only reason christians celebrate it...if it had not been i can almost guarantee that no christian would be keeping this festival.
I agree that the celebration as it is today has moved far away from its original intent by the 4th century church. And we all should reevaluate why we still observe it. But I see nothing against doing something to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ into this world. It and the resurrection are the major events in world history that have changed it forever. That is indeed something to praise God for and to commemorate.
LOL! Just like no Christians have ever kept and celebrated Halloween?
Halloween was a Christian holiday, before the rest of us added on. All Hallows Eve.
By working together, we can has many more christ in christmas. We can has infinite Christ in Christmas.
Jesus' teachings and character should be followed; if one is a true Christians; no need for any celebrations.
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Please read the link below....<snipped - no promotional links in the forums>
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