If a God exists- then who created that God? How can the Creator be created? Do you have any reason? -this is one of the final questions you will ever face. You can bring Immanuel Kant to the discussion, I will not mind :-)
Why would you ask that question?
If perchance you have gotten a plausible answer, to what level will you take it?
Would you become a preacher, teacher .... what ever?
Point I am making is that you decide what you want to be in this world...
So you create the present you.
Therefore it should be easy for you to accept that God is a self creation.
How can something create itself; especially, something like God? How can something come out of nothing; especially, something like God?
How can you say that we are not Gods ourselves, who came from the skies one day to spread civilization in this world?
Then too, funny maybe, who created us?
You cannot apply human thinking to this question. God is far beyond what we are capable of thinking and comprehending. One only restricts themselves with this kind of logic / thinking.
Yet, the believer WILL go far beyond what they are capable of thinking and comprehending to tell us all about what God thinks and does.
No one knows what God thinks or does. One can only say what they believe.
And yet, believers will tell us all about what God thinks and does while the rest of us know they are only saying what they believe.
It's funny how people try to disprove there is a God by saying that it is impossible because nothing can come from nothing.....i mean, if that's true then how could there have been a big bang??? How could something have came from nothing. As impossible as it is for us to imagine, there had to be a beginning. SOMETHING had to always exist right? Right?
As I go back into my philosophy studies, I remember that philosophy coupled with theology describes God as the "uncaused Cause", the ontological Being. Oxford American Dictionary defines the ontological argument as stating that God being defined as most great or perfect, must exist, since a God who exists is greater than a God who does not. God could not create Himself, because to do this, He would have to "be" and NOT be at the same time. This is impossible!
You are right- God has always been, and He did not come from anything, or nothing. If we could really explain Him, then He could not be God. The Bible tells us that " In the beginning, God created..." He was therefore BEFORE the beginning.
God did not create Himself, nor did anyone or any thing. He has always been. One of His names, in Isaiah 9:6, is 'The Everlasting Father'. Webster's gives a definition to the word 'everlasting' as 'eternal (without beginning or end)'. God has no beginning or end.
Therefore, He did not come out of nothing: He is, always has been and always will be.
I am no god, neither are you, neither is any one else. We came from God, the only Creator of all mankind.
Haha I find some interesting comments. First, to us to a point where we might be able to grasp the concept of God we must understand that we can not fully understand or comprehend God, nor can we figure Him out. No One can. Once we understand this we can move on to the real questions and forgo the excuses not to allow Him to change us into what we are meant to be-righteous and victorious!
God is from everlasting, He is eternal, the uncreated One. He created all things for His good pleasure. This is why "science" can't prove Him, because they cannot recreat Him-He wasn't created! He is the Creator!
And Yes, some people will-actually most people will argue a point just to win and not really know what they are talking about. Thus, some who are called by His name are no less guilty of doing the same thing.
The FACT still remains, that His knowledge is far greater then ours and we cannot understand Him, thought He fully understands us.
Ack! Let me pick up my copy of a prolegema to any future metaphysics or whatever it is called, stay up for twenty hours so I am capable of understanding philosophy and I'll be back.
God always was, always is and always will be God, with no beginning and no end.
Why would a "GOD" need to be created why not just be?
There are some things beyond our own understanding, and this is one of them. However, the Bible does address humans, and in it declares that God is, was, and always will be. Therefore, we are aware that as long as we exist, God will also exist, and that He was in existence before us, and will continue to be in existence after us; outside of this, no one knows, until the day comes that we are able to ask God.
LOL! Translation: "I have absolutely no understanding of science so I turn to the Bible for answers."
I understand "science" just fine, and by the way, "science" follows LAWS. Laws cannot exist without intelligent design and organization... i just CANNOT stress this point enough. I still don't understand why you want to blind yourself so badly sir.
For something or someone to be a created being implies a beginning.
They were not (existant), then they were created, and then they were (existant).
He is without beginning, nor end.
Many god-images have been made, which mankind made. To ask who made them, you'd have to specify which one, to get an answer.
Simply stated, God is infinite and infinity is far beyond anything that human beings can comprehend.
Thus, posing such a question as "who created God?" is the same as asking, Where does The Universe begin and where does it end?
That isn't simply stated, that is merely a simple statement.
(n) = any number
Notice how easy it is to comprehend infinity?
What is it with you and the little laughing face?
That is very juvenile; therefore, I must assume that you are still in high school or else you have not gotten around to growing up.
Furthermore, like everyone else who has inhabited this planet, you don't have a clue of what infinity is. The only reason why you think you know the answer is you do not realize that you do not know anything.
In other words, only fools believe that they know more than others do and/or that they know all the answers.
What's up? Are you at a loss for words?
Furthermore, why do you threaten others by implying you will report them to the "admins?" In addition to being a know-it-all, are you also a snitch?
No, I was just laughing at your post, you said it quite succinctly and I thought to bold it.
When folks like yourself insult others personally, they are supposed to be reported. Didn't you know that?
Hey look, you insulted one of the other contributors to this forum by sarcastically asking, "Are you finished with high school yet?"
What we have here is a pot and kettle situation.
Good point. Did you know that poster was doing nothing more than lying?
But, you're right, I should probably give more respect to those who lie.
By definition, the universe is all that encompasses our reality, hence it does not have an end in which something else has a beginning. That something else would therefore be part of our universe.
Like a snake. Where does the head end and the tail begin? Things that no rationally thinking mind has answers to. As much as I dilike you, you have made a very fine point my friend.
Way back in the day when I smoked a whole lot of happy grass on a daily basis, I frequently pondered such questions as, where does a snake's head end and the tail begin?
You can't be serious. Are you actually saying you don't know?
That's odd, I don't dislike you or anyone else here. Perhaps, you need to revisit your martial arts philosophies for guidance in that regard.
The only thing you accomplished with that response is the wasting of quite a few keystrokes.
So, you disagree with my statement but are unable to respond with an intelligent rebuttal, so you said that instead. Well done, sir!
The truth is, I am not nearly as intelligent as you are.
I'm just a semi-literate home boy who is in way over his head when it comes to being a contributor to HubPages.
Troubled Man, because I am a "down home boy" who was a South-Central L.A. Low Rider way back in the day, I am always straight up.
This is a question with no answer. Believing in God is something you do without asking question. I asked myself this question once too and decided it was a waste of time thinking about it.
'Who created God' is a question that presupposes everything requires being created.
However, common sense would seem to indicate that something has to be eternal; either the material universe (matter), or something exterior to this universe.
Evidence [e.g.: the second Law of Thermodynamics] indicates that the matter of our universe (or what we know of it) cannot be eternal and, therefore, something exterior to our universe must be.
Common Sense and observable evidence would further indicate that whatever is the external cause of our universe is intelligent; the scale and complexity of the cosmos clearly indicates this. Those that would support the universe is the result of an eternal, purely accidental, non-living, non-thinking thing, are choosing to do so in the face of all reason, and demonstrate a “blind faith” every bit as strong as that which they condemn in those believing in a creator God.
From the dawn of creation man has correctly reasoned to their being a creator, based upon the very evidence of the creation itself. There are those that would murky the waters of that reasoning with unprovable theories and overconfidence in man discovering proof that God does not exist. However, the logic that leads to their being a Creator is solid and unshakable.
The real challenge we face is finding God. He obviously doesn't intend for us to see him with our physical eyes; other than through the evidence of what he has made.
What other ways are there to see God?
None of that is common sense but are instead faith-based conclusions based on indoctrinated beliefs and ignorance.
And yet, the evidence of our universe does not show any creators, nada, zilch, nothing.
Really? Seems more evident there are those who believe in God that are unscrupulous and dishonest when they make false claims about science and the world around us.
No, the irrational beliefs held by the unscrupulous and dishonest are solid and unshakable in light of reality and facts.
If God could be created, then who would create Him, and someone would have to create the one that created Him and so on and so forth into eternity.
If God could be created, it would be impossible for Him to be God. What would seperate Him from all of us and all the things that are in the earth, created. He's the Creator, not part of creation. NO ONE created Him. Furthermore, who would want to serve a God that could be created.
A god cannot be made that's why in monotheism we talk about God as being 'begotton not made'.
Well, hello, lizzieBoo. I am glad our paths finally crossed.
And your comment is right on, as we say here in the colonies.
Neither is God 'begotten'. Someone who is begotten has a beginning. God has no beginning and no end.
Everything had to begin in some fashion.
Mmmmmm, not really.
And besides, because God is NOT a thing, He is NOT a part of "everything."
Check it out. That is not a quote of what I wrote.
I wrote, BECAUSE God is NOT a thing, He is NOT a part of "everything."
And the reason why I know is The Holy Bible told me so. I learned all about that way back in the day in Sunday School.
And Sunday School is a real cool and hip thing, my friend. It helps to build character and strong senses of decency and humility.
Really? Then, you should be able to provide the relevant Bible quotes that say God is NOT a thing and is NOT a part of "everything".
No, it is but a form of child abuse because it does nothing but accomplish the brainwashing of children.
If you really wanted to build character and strong senses of decency and humility, join a team sport, instead.
For your information, friend, I was a star athlete in high school where I lettered in three sports -- baseball, football and track & field.
Additionally, I was in the U.S. Army for five years, served as a front-line infantry soldier in the Vietnam War, and advanced to the rank of captain.
Is that enough character-building experiences forya?
The great thing about the internet is one can say anything they want about themselves.
I would submit the character building was indeed from Sunday school.
If it pleases you to say that I am lying about my background, then go right ahead and knock yourself out.
Whether you were lying or not makes no difference as to where your character was actually built. I think it was Sunday school, though.
Troubled man, have you ever looked around yourself and thought "hey I'm in a tiny minority here - maybe it's me that can't see things for what they are" ?
Giving children rules and ideas as they grow up isn't child abuse. Putting children up chimneys, beating them with a cane, depriving them of food on a regular basis etc. are all forms of child abuse. Teaching children about peace and love and accountability are not on a par with child slavery.
So your local Pastor told you to be good or you'd burn in Hell? Boo hoo! How fragile are you? Most of the western world has had the same upbringing for the past 300years. It's called being a child. Then you grow up and make sense of the world for yourself. If you're still angry about what adults told you as a child, you need to get a grip. Feenix has stared death in the face, for heaven's sake, and you're talking about words.
The Creator God is an attributive being; all physical and spiritual things are His creation; He had no beginning and no ending; beginnings and endings or time are His creation.
HE IS..THE I AM..He has always been, no beginning, no end...It's easy to believe, at least for me, that there IS a more powerful than me, you, or anyone, or anything...All I have to do is look around me, see, hear, smell, touch..experience it ALL..EVERYWHERE, around us, to know GOD exist...HE is not CREATED, but just simply EXSIST...HE chose you, and me, to live and to live for HIS purpose and that was to LOVE and to SHARE that LOVE..THROUGH AND BY HIM...HE IS..(LOVE)..HE IS (HOPE)..HE IS (ALL WE NEED)..HE IS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!
What a joy...to just belive that He REALLY IS and HAS ALWAYS BEEN...
That's akin to asking a first grader to write a detailed explanation of string theory. We have no knowledge that God exists. We don't know exactly what God's essence would be if he does. We haven't gotten a firm handle on how the universe came into being. We don't know but a minutiae about the reality we exist in. How, in the world could anyone answer that question?
Some people, in the history of humanity, seemingly answered that very question, or simply avoided that in fear of losing ground. Perhaps they were not modest enough to accept their inability.
LOL! You mean a detailed explanation of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
I noticed believers are providing non-answers to the OP such as "It is not for you to know how or why" and other such gobbledegook.
And I notice any response that doesn't mirror your own is food for fodder to you. What we don't know won't hurt us, but some of us like to ponder it anyway. I love the fact that we live in a world where some can haughtily assume that the lion's share of humanity since the beginning of the existence of man has been completely delusional, some can haughtily assume they are special while the rest of us will rot in hellfire; and then some of us can assume everyone sees things in their own unique manner, and that manner is grand.
Life is wonderful. Don't you think?
Rephrase: If Energy exists, how was it created. Understanding the nature of energy answers the question, just as understanding God answers the question. Both answers are the same.
No one knows how energy was created first. Who created Time? Did a God create that?
If there is a God who made those things; then, of course, who created that God?
And if God was created by someone else, then who created that someone else?
It will never stop, unless we bring something 'self-created' into play. Or a totally different philosophy.
Infinity is beyond our comprehension. And time exists because we occupy space. Einstein proved that.
Let (n) be any number. Easy to understand, isn't it?
Just as easy to understand in the mind, too.
So how come when someone states that God has always been, people often say something must have created Him?
Don't mess with his head.
It could damage his opinions.
Probably because those who claim that "God always has been" show an incredible lack of understanding of the world around them and other people are pointing out the flaw in their ignorance.
Quantum Physics says that there are 10 planes of existance.
My question is which plane came first?
The laws of physics which pertain to us are true only in the plane which we exist with-in.
To deny the existance of things which we are unfamilar; would be kinda like living in a house with no windows or doors, and denying the existance of the out-of-doors. ... no sky or birds, no grass or trees, or moon or stars.
Thank God for doors and windows.
good question...Who created god is something science doesnot answer and answer of religion is too outdated one and 500 years down the line , majority would discard the answer...
by the way god too is concept ...
God is comprised of energy and energy cannot be destroyed or created, so therefore God was always around.
If viewed from that point of view , you are correct but that energy need not have intelligence , cant judge and there can't be hell/heaven...such are concept of thought ...only human species view things in that fashion and religion is understandable from that point of view...ancestors trying to make sense of world as per their understanding and they did reasonably good job , only problem with us at this point of time is instead of taking things forward , trying to keep things frozen ....
Have you ever seen this energy-God? What if I say God is Time? Who has seen this time-God?
-even then, who created energy and time?
@goldenbird good question and because of this question comes concept of god...it would stay till we have answer...god wont go away as long as such questions dont get answers...grip of religion has loosened only since last 500 yrs and it would still stay till we get answers ....who knows those answers would give rise to another religion like it has always done in past.
At pisean282311, I do believe in a personal God. @GoldenBird, no one has seen God. People have seen the son of God, but not God Himself, that is if you are arguing from a Christian point of view.
Why are you saying that God is 'him'? Are you sure God is masculine in gender?
I've never thought of Him as masculine because Jesus spoke of the Father. However, God does not exactly have a woman's body so I don't know.
How can God be comprised of something He created? He doesn't need energy to exist. He made energy.
That's the thing, yolanda. Energy cannot be created.
What an amazing world this is. Each-and-every day, I learn something new.
I've learnt something, too. Personal growth comes when one allows themselves to learn but acknowledging that there are things to learn. It's sad that some people think they know everything throughout their life. That is how people become narrowed minded and arrogant.
But, what Claire said is not true, once again.
Wow, my man, thank you very much for clearing that up for me.
I was actually having you in mind when I wrote my last comment. You are arrogant and narrow-minded and I have proven it. You DO think you know everything but it is not so. Please get some humility in your life.
Your copy/paste in the last post was not complete as it only deals with the conservation of energy and NOT entropy.
"First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another."
You see, you don't know everything. So think very carefully before you ask someone if they have finished high school.
Energy can be created by burning fossil fuels, for example. And, if you take the remnants of what's left after burning the fossil fuel, that cannot be converted back to mass due to entropy.
Fire is needed to burn fossil fuels right? Well, fire is thermal energy and light energy. So the energy from the fire produces the energy of the combustion of the fossil fuel. The point is that thermal and light energy from the fire has been transferred into energy released from the burning of fossil fuel which needed energy to be in existence in the first place.
During the combustion reaction, the hydrocarbon molecules are converted to carbon dioxide and water. Carbon dioxide absorbs energy and water molecules move in liquid water and contains energy.
As for entropy the term is a measure of the degree to which energy has lost the capacity to perform useful work.
Entropy is a thermodynamic property that can be used to determine the energy not available for work in a thermodynamic process, such as in energy conversion devices, engines, or machines. Such devices can only be driven by convertible energy, and have a theoretical maximum efficiency when converting energy to work. During this work, entropy accumulates in the system, which then dissipates in the form of waste heat.
And waste heat has energy, which can them be used to generate electricity which, of course, is energy.
Nope, just an ignition from a spark will do, like a spark plug, for example.
Thanks for the copy/paste. I'm sure you understood it all.
And I suppose a spark doesn't have any energy? Electricity doesn't have any energy?
The only thing that I copied and pasted was the definition of entropy paragraph and this sentence:
"During the combustion reaction, the hydrocarbon molecules are converted to carbon dioxide and water."
So you failed. The energy generated by the spark plug burns the fossil fuels which produces energy. I don't know if you understand that it is a transfer of energy and not creating it.
So, there was enough energy in the spark to that "transferred" it's energy to burn the fossil fuel? Hilarious. You really should just stick to the Bible.
F! My comment was deleted. NOOOOOOO!!
Cut and paste I'm afraid:
What you should get out of this is that energy is not created out of nothing. It is transformed from one form into another
Transforming energy is when the energy changes into another form. In physics, the term energy describes the capacity to produce changes within a system, without regard to limitations in transformation imposed by entropy. Changes in total energy of systems can only be accomplished by adding or subtracting energy from them, as energy is a quantity which is conserved, according to the first law of thermodynamics
Energy may be used in natural processes or machines, or else to provide some service to society (such as heat, light, or motion). For example, an internal combustion engine, ignited by a spark, converts the potential chemical energy in gasoline and oxygen into heat, which is then transformed into the propulsive energy (kinetic energy that moves a vehicle)
Spark plugs transmit electrical energy that turns fuel into working energy. A sufficient amount of voltage must be supplied by the ignition system to cause the spark to jump the across the spark plug gap, thus creating what is called Electrical Performance.
Additionally, the temperature of the spark plug's firing end must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling.This is called Thermal Performance and is determined by the heat range of the spark plug.
So obviously for a spark plug to work it needs electricity which is energy, of course.
See the process of coal plants:
Coal is crushed to a fine dust and blown into a furnace lined with water filled tubes. There, it is ignited by long rods that are effectively huge spark plugs. With the coal burning, heat is generated and the water filled tubes start to produce steam in a header tank above the boiler.
The steam then exits the turbine and goes to a condenser where it is cooled to a water state, it is chemically balanced so it will not eat the tubes in the furnace, then re-cycled.
As for the power generation, this is done with an alternator linked to the turbine which is fed through circuit breakers to the switch yard. In the yard transformers increase the voltage from the 3,300v or more generated to 110,000 and more volts for distribution.
From the information I have posted, what do you think insinuates that energy is created from something that doesn't have energy in the first place?
This is fragmented, sorry, but my comment was deleted.
Sorry to interrupt, but I have some doubts.
Heat is the vibration of molecules, that is motion. When you say "increase the temperature" actually it is the increased motion. Light is another form of motion.
When gasoline is burned, the molecules of gasoline combine with oxygen creating a different set of molecules, which moves faster than the previous ones. The motion is transferred to the piston, which through different wheels, is sent to the tyres which makes the car moves. So what effectively occurs is the motion of the molecules is transferred to the car. So where is the energy? In your picture I saw gasoline, the molecules, the piston, wheels, tyres, car but no energy. Where is it or what is it?
What is this energy? When it is created/transferred, how does it look like?
Gasoline and molecules have energy and the gasoline is what caused the motion energy in the first place. A car changes chemical energy from fuel into thermal energy and mechanical energy.
There is no time that no energy is involved as it is defined as the ability to do work.
As far as I'm aware every molecule/atom in this universe is in motion with relation to each other. And we can transfer that motion from one to another through physical contact which increases the motion of one while decreasing the other. So, as I said the motion of gasoline(The molecules where in motion before it was ignited and the new molecules have more speed after, as the molecules change('bonds' broken) is transferred to the car. (Thermal energy is the increased motion, when you put a thermometer the motion is transferred to the mercury which increase in volume which is charted and is read as temperature, the more temperature means more motion.)
Work is the distance traveled by an object and hence energy will be the amount of motion transferred. So when you say ability to do work it only means the motion that can be imparted to another object.
So there is nothing called energy, but only motion of objects,[I have the ability to do work, but I'm me(human) not energy] so it is absurd to say energy exists, "abilities" do not exist, 'ability' is what we have.
Jomine, as you said, energy is generally a concept of being a condition or state of a thing. Except for maybe light energy. I think we only see the result of the energy like electricity and I suppose that is what people think energy is. Most people, including myself, think of energy as a thing rather than a condition or state of thing. I suppose that is why energy cannot be destroyed or created. I learnt something from you. However, I was right about my original claim that energy cannot be created or destroyed.
I'm with the conservation of god, the same thing as conservation of mass and energy. I think the only being capable of creating god is god right? Unless it is a fictional character, abstracted from all the gods and goddesses ever imagined. Then the answer is all of us. Everything exists! As a reality or a fiction or a thought or impulse. Or: This reality is a construct of my soul to teach itself lessons; god, jumpropes and all of you are manifestations of my consciousness.
*The comment was changed*
-Is this the way religion works?
I was attempting to draw on Transcendentalism, which may draw from Vendanta philosphy. Your response to me feels like a compliment, ty.
The "way that religion works" has absolutely nothing to do with God. Absolutely nothing.
Dear GoldenBird ~ G-d can do anything. Whatever you feel is possible or impossible can be accomplished. It is not for you to know how or why, just to know (a little). Love, Debby
Perhaps we should start to call G-d as 'the Unknown'. That will fit with our knowledge. Thanks Debby, your words heal.
You better start to take medication. You don't need God or civilization; you need something else. It's a forum, and we are unable to deliver that here.
Silly bird, you come here under false pretenses. I'm on to you but you are nothing but a regurgitation of a million other threads. I don't need to write another hub for this place, I did more than you ever probably ever could or ever will. So fly, fly away, with whatever you are trying to prove to the world. You bring no enlightenment or original thought. You don't submit any interesting questions to challenge a world view, you are a pretender. I don't need to read you, to know you. Protect your little nest here if you want. If you need your ego stroked, people to respond to your silly questions, this is the right place for it. Small bird in big sky, that's your new American-Indian name.
Dear GoldenBird ~ G-d is unknown. True. Emet. We do not know and cannot know all. We are provided grace of just enough. The universe was created and it was "good." Blessings, Debby
Dear GoldenToad - I assume unrelated to GB. I also have insomnia. Now time for some sleep. Blessings, Debby
I'm just going to answer the question.
Who created God? and how can something that created everything not come from something else.
Kind of like a chicken and the egg kind of thing. If I go by my religious up bringing I would say, He (God) was always there. Not much of an explanation.
Being older now, I think it is possible that something can, just be. I think our minds are too underdeveloped to comprehend the magnitude of such a question. When I took Astronomy, the professor warned us that when we got to the last chapter, he said, "There will be many questions, you may have, that have no answer." Interesting.
We know more about the universe then earth's oceans. Science seems to always come up during topics like this, but how can it not? We are talking about how things were created.
Yeah! If ENERGY can do it, why can't God? Hmmmm...there I go again!
God is. He is outside of time. The answer to your question is all around us. It is not just in the Bible. It is common to man - not to recognize what is right in front of his face. Intelligence in creation is all around us.
Philosophy is the forerunner of physics. These types of questions were asked by those philosophers. Some proved to themselves by mathmatics that there had to be an initial movement to start the whole process. He spoke and the world was.
We cannot comprehend that something always was except in finite terms. This is why faith is a part of believing. For without faith it is impossible to please God. Because those who come to Him must believe He exsits and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews
What does that mean? How is something "outside of time?"
Time is relative. There is a time difference when astronauts go into space. God is the ultimate time traveler. He IS and WAS and IS TO COME. When He comes to take us He has said that TIME will be NO MORE. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. This is all Biblical. The only way to begin to understand is to search the Bible.
In other words, the explanation for "outside of time" is based on religious gobbledegook.
Gee, thanks for that.
Sorry? Did you not see the piece about the astronauts? You only see what you want to see, don't you? How can you point the finger at Christians; accusing them of being blind and you cannot even read an entire paragraph and gain an understanding of that?
I see what reality puts in front of me. It isn't my choice at all.
What astronauts? Could you be more vague?
You can look up the theory of relativity in any encyclopedia and read a simplified explanation. Again, time is realtive. The further away you get from gravity the less time matters. Gravity is in the equation of time. God was only effected by His creation once; when He subjected Himself to it. God can move in and out of time as He pleases.
In your case reality is what you can experience with your senses. How do you think outside the box? The reality is all around you. There is evidence of inelligent design all around, yet you would deny it. Aeordynamically the bumblebee should not be able to fly; but it does. The amazing ability of cuddle fish to change their coloration. The list could go on forever.
If life really came from an evolutionary line then why do we not have fish men; people with wings; and so on.
Science and the Bible do not clash. Scientists of the day were killed for saying the earth was round. Ignorance comes with too much controlled education and loss of simple common sense. Are you a casualty?
Thanks, but I read the theory instead.
That makes no sense.
No, it isn't, because there is no such thing as an equation of time.
Faith based gobbledegook.
I don't normally climb into boxes to think.
No, you simply imagine it.
So what? They are the result of evolution.
Those characteristics never evolved. Just because you can imagine a combination of species doesn't mean they have to exist.
Yes, they do clash for those that know something about science.
That was the result of religious beliefs, the same beliefs you follow today. But of course, reality trumped those beliefs and now you know the world is round as opposed to what was believed before.
Yes it is. Just because there is no standard equation does not mean there cannot be a theory. Gravity is a part of the equation. Faith is not even in the subject here, because you cannot comprehend it.
You do not climb into boxes to think - because you are so used to the box you are in that you cannot think outside of it, nor do you try.
Belief in evolution is faith based. There is no solid proof of it. Everything you claim can be proved by science - can be shown to have already exsited in the Bible.
There are scientists, real scientists, that would disagree with you about science and the Bible clashing. That is a closed-minded, knee-jerk response given by those who CHOOSE to ignore anything outside THEIR box.
Your responses are non-sensical, narrow-minded, and obtuse.
The roundness of the world was not a result of the beliefs I follow today. Again you are showing your ignorance. It was a result of a religious body that attempts to keep everyone under their control. That is one reason why we have so many different denominations today, to escape that domineering, non-Christian attitude.
You find these same kinds of people in secular society as well. Atheists, goverment officials, etc. this kind of attitude is not unique to religion, nor to any one person.
You have no idea what you are talking about. It is impossible to have a meaningful thought exchange with you.
What you spout off every time you write IS gobbledegook.
I hope you accept the truth before it is too late.
So, you'll just make one up out of thin air.
So, reality is now a box?
Agreed. Understanding of evolution is not.
There are mountains of evidence and evolution is a fact.
That is false and you know it.
Perhaps, they are "real scientists" but that claim is certainly false.
im going to lay this to rest . for better or worse you have no farther to look. its me. i created this god. blame me . it was a first draft . what can i say. but if you want to help. lets build a better one.
God was never created, and we cannot understand this because God's being is transcendent to man's mind.
The only answer to the question of original origins that makes any sense, is God. Something cannot come out of nothing, the notion of a godless big bang that produced anything is ludicrous . . . how and why would the very first amino acid or hydrogen molecule, or whatever, suddenly and spontaneously 'pop' into existing, out of absolute nothingness? It demonstrably cannot be - yet determined that something besides God must be the case, intelligent people concoct elaborate schemes and equations to convince themselves of this very simple absurdity - material reality came from nothing.
Yet, if we acknowledge there must be some creator-being capable of creating material reality, we instantly ask (as you are) 'so who created Him'? This appears a most reasonable question because things happen in a linear order, one thing leads to another, etc . . . so if there is a God who made everything, who first made Him (and then who made the one who made Him, and on and on). But the solution here is that 'linear order' idea - that, is time; one moment being overtaken by the next which precedes the moment just arriving now and ahead of the moment to follow, etc. But, time itself was created by God.
The Bible presents God as an infinite, eternal being . . . but, because our own experience is limited to time, when we think of eternity we think of time that goes on and on forever - but the Bible presents eternity as outside of time, eternity does not have one moment being overtaken by the next which precedes the moment just arriving now and ahead of the moment to follow, etc . . . eternity is an ever-present now, an ongoing instant, a perpetual moment, etc. There is time and there is eternity, two separate realities, we can't think of eternity as a really, really long time - it is the absence of time.
So, before (so to speak) God made the material reality of the universe, He first (so to speak) made time to put it all in. The material creation, as God designed it, requires time to exist in, things change (reproduce, grow, etc) and that requires a linear reality of one moment preceding the one we're in as another is coming now to take it's place, etc. So, if God made time to put His material creation into, that means until (so to speak) He created time there was no time . . . no moment prior to another or followed by the next. God existed in eternity, an ever-present now . . . no one created God because the was no 'before' or first - God is the infinite, eternal Spirit and the only uncreated thing. And, that (it seems to me) is the only idea that makes any sense . . . but you do have to kind of roll it over a few times in your mind.
Dude, you wasted a lot of words on a forum thread that no one takes serious except for a handful of wanna-be intellectuals. Write a hub about it...foolio.
LOL! Incredibly narrow view devoid of all other alternatives and possibilities. Laughable.
But, isn't that what God did, created something out of nothing?
Your post shows little in the form of knowledge of the big bang, hence your original premise is based entirely on ignorance.
The rest is all gobbledegook.
Massive explosions in space created everything. Scientists have proof of this. Humans are nothing more than complex proteins. Again, they have discovered the proteins that make humans which will susbequently eventually lead to laboratory human creation. This is all common sense. Religion will erventually be completely disregarded simply because it's pointless these days. Work of fiction. Why cling on to a work of fiction when the REAL evidence is there through science?
"Massive explosions in space created everything."
-What initiated that massive explosion? What existed before that massive explosion? What is the age of this space? What is the age of Time? When did it come into being? How?
You and me- are we just the coincidences of space? Can we recreate life from scratch?
Religion is not for kids. It has deeper origins.
It wasn't an explosion, it was an expansion. Huge difference. An explosion would have all the matter contained within moving away from the center of the explosion at very similar velocities.
The Big Bang, on the other hand, does not a center and all matter is moving away from each other a various velocities, which is not observed in an explosion.
Those are good questions, and if it wasn't for religions having such a negative affect on societies and thinking, we might already those answers. Given more time, we probably will get them.
But, it doesn't offer any answers that are credible or based in reality.
ATM > . . . would have all the matter contained within moving . . . <
All what matter? You're not at all providing anything close to a reasonable answer, you're simply starting at a point after the point of the question, you're merely side-stepping the question and then mocking the sound and legitimate answer of a spiritual reality beyond our material time-based universe . . . the idea of God does not advance your silly notion of magic or anti-science, it suggests a reality (a viable fact-based reality) existing under different conditions than are measurable or observable from our material reality station.
You're responses to the concept of an eternal spiritual reality are like a fellow who says "No way there can be life on any other planets - earth is the only one with enough oxygen" . . . as if the only manner of life-form possible is carbon based oxygen processors. I can understand you're view that there is no call to believe there is such an eternal spiritual reality beside or beyond our own material reality, but how you can so flippantly mock the idea as something that should never even be considered is a ludicrous position for a thinking person to take.
When I was referring to an explosion, there is obviously matter contained within the explosion, the matter that was required to make the explosion, like a bomb, for example. The Big Bang was very different.
Unfortunately, your "viable fact-based reality" does not appear to exist in our reality. The conditions you refer are in fact based on magic because they are conditions not present on this planet, at the very least.
Yes, I understand believers dishonestly compare their "spiritual reality" to reality, but fail miserably upon facing reality.
Sure, as ludicrous as not believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Anyone who claims they have evidence "beyond our own material reality" is lying, which is what the thinking person can easily see.
I agree with GoldenBird. In order for something to come into existence, something already existing had to make made it come into existence. If all matter that exists now is a result of the Big Bang, something separate from matter we have today but has initiated the Big Bang. What is it?
That is the $Million question. Evolution the big bang or any other theory only addresses what is already there and not how it came into existance. That is the real question.
LOL! As if believers are ever going to change their beliefs in light of that answer or any other answer regarding evolution or the big bang.
This is actually the biggest argument for the existence of God. As Shakespeare said, "Nothing comes from nothing".
A Troubled Man, you would never change your beliefs if scientists said, "Well, this is proof God exists". God doesn't have to be anything man knows about it. That is why some people are deists.
The odd thing is that Stephen Hawkings says that the universe came into existence by gravity but physical laws on their own cannot create anything; they are merely a (mathematical) description of what normally happens under certain given conditions. How can such a erudite individual not get this?
So, where did God get the materials to make the universe? Nothing comes from nothing?
If there were hard evidence that scientists found that conclusively agreed God existed, I would certainly understand God existed. That's called being honest.
Once again, you probably shouldn't comment about concepts you have no understanding as it only makes one look very foolish.
In the physical world nothing comes from nothing. As a supernatural being, He is considered to always have been around. The physical world probably is a physical manifestation that could have been in another form in other dimensions.
Scientists never agree on anything so you won't ever feel compelled to believe in God. God creating the universe if far more believable than RNA in a primordial source forming DNA then eventually being responsible for consciousness and the assemblance of the human body.
The consideration that God has always been around is pure nonsense because your God has never even been shown to exist, so all you do is set up a false premise. Try again.
That is another false premise or a lie, take your pick.
Yes, the religiously indoctrinated who know very little or nothing at all about science, who wish to dishonestly present concepts for which they have no understanding as some sort of fairy tale they can deny in favor of their magical kingdoms and invisible sky beings, will indeed believe and embrace the gobbledegook they spew.
I don't know of a single theist who doesn't think God hasn't always been around. That still counts as consideration. It stems from the premise that energy cannot be created or destroyed. If not created, then how did it come into being?
I'd like you to explain to me exactly how RNA replicated into DNA then thousands of years down the line resulted in the assemblance of the human body and consciousness. Hasn't science proven that? I want a complete breakdown.
No, it IS an irrational belief, not a consideration. A consideration would actually require careful thought, would need to be informative in order to be valid. Theists believe, they don't think.
Once again, try to stop presenting concepts for which you have no understanding, it only makes you look incredibly foolish.
Again, either go back to your bible or get an education before attempting to understand those concepts.
It is irrational NOT to take into consideration that a god in a spiritual form made of energy does not existence so science cannot explain the origin of the universe.
I assume you are very learned in science. So answer my last question on evolution from RNA to the human body and consciousness? Surely you know where consciousness comes from? It can't possible be from God.
Sure, and based on your logic, is it irrational NOT to take into consideration anything that is invisible and has never been shown to exist in light of reality.
I know for a fact you are not.
Why do you persist in asking questions regarding concepts that you clearly have no understanding? You don't even understand the very elementary basics of evolution.
You can't prove to others that God exists. It can be proven to an individual. That's all I care about. You just don't understand how the spiritual world works.
You never did answer me the question I asked about evolution. I've been scratching my head. How did RNA and DNA in a primordial soup eventually assemble the human body and consciousness? Take me step by step because you are clearly a genius when it comes to evolution.
And, you do?
Yeah sure, I'll just cram several volumes of works starting with the Origin of Species.
The Origin of Species does not prove that RNA and DNA eventually lead to the assemblance of the human body and added consciousness as well. Evolutionists just claims it just happened. I can take the chassis of a car, the engines, bonnet, steering wheel and look it all I like but it will never come into existence and work unless someone with intelligence assembles it.
So you fail.
Here is an argument that God is actually comprised of high frequency spectra of energy.
To summarize, those frequencies beyond man's detection
* Hidden from view.
* All the more powerful.
* All the more intelligence within a given space.
* Can pass right through matter undetected.
* Can constructively interact with matter.
* Can destructively interact with matter.
The trend is that high frequency spectras of ENERGY
do in fact match what the bible says about God. The
bible states that:
* God is HIDDEN from view.
* God is all powerful.
* God is extremely intelligent.
* God can pass through matter undetected.
* God can interact with his creation.
X-Rays are also very high frequencies and thus cannot be seen.
"X-rays being higher in frequency than the visual spectrum,
also have a much shorter "wavelength". This means that
the X-rays are much higher in resolution than the visual
spectrum. The effects of this are simple, with the higher
resolutions, you can get much more detailed information
within the same space vs. that found with visual frequencies.
In other words, the higher the frequency, the more
intelligence within the same space."
There will always be a "higher than we can detect"
frequency that man can't find or measure since there
is NO "upper frequency limit".
To summarize, those frequencies beyond man's detection
* Hidden from view.
* All the more powerful.
* All the more intelligence within a given space.
* Can pass right through matter undetected.
* Can constructively interact with matter.
* Can destructively interact with matter.
Sooooo...to assert with certainty that God doesn't exist is just laughable. It clearly indicates a lack of scientific knowledge. The above scenario is very possible.
Jesus came to earth, thus God has shown Himself to us. Jesus is God John 1:1
And you actually believe it? Did jesus not say "take it with a grain of salt"? This means to me that one should not take it seriously, just learn what pertains to you and take it from there.
One may not take bits and pieces from various parts of scripture and make it fit where it pleases them. Just as you would not read page 1&2 of a book and jump to the next chapter and try to reconcile the two together. There is a lot of information in between that must be learned to make sense of what you read.
Actually, ALL of scripture pertains to man, if it were not so it would not have been given to us. All Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching,...(2 Timothy 3:16)
I spent years reading the entire bible time and again. I just have awakened to a different kind of truth and I see now that I was mistaken in believing that the bible was litteraly true. I see the bible as the birth of reasoning, in a(at the time) narrow minded part of the world. The problem that I saw, was that people were buying into the idea that people didn't know anything real about the world, so they relied totally on the bible for that knowledge. And I'm not talking about the physical world. I am talking about the world of thought and self directed action or will, if you prefer.
I realized that life was not about what tribe or crowd to fit in with, nor was it about gospel truths. It was about truths that go beyond spirituallity and that delve into into the deepest corners of the psyche. While I do not contest your belief for you, I hold my beliefs or knowledge to be unimportant. I choose to live in the now and I choose to believe that everything, even the so called "written word of God" are just things and like the universe are just a passing by of things. I don't think it means anything. It does not matter to me, I am happy the way I am and the bible didn't make me this way, I chose to be this. I chosew to seek a cleaner more efficient way for myself I do not worry about the past and I do not see the future, for they do not exist. What exists, is now.
Oh yes, it must be true if it's written in the bible.
Time will tell. If scientists find those answers, don't you think believers will look extremely foolish by clinging to the creation myths they embrace now?
Are you sure science will ever find those answers?
I have no reason to think scientists won't find those answers. That is, unless believers blow up the world in the meantime.
I don't think we will ever know why this exists. In my eyes it just does and there are many ways in which it can be inerpreted. It is a reallity that people believe as they do. It is wise to let them, but at the current rate at which our culture is changing, I see religion being replaced by knowledge seeking, within the next 1,000 + or - years from now. That is just a theoretical projection and should not be seen as an actual average.
A Troubled Man, your answer says that you have a belief in science. Just as many people have belief in religion, you got something else.
Believers must accept concepts based on belief as opposed to understanding so it makes sense you would make that false statement.
Knowledge and belief are are too different to define in any rational measure. It is wise to seek knowledge and beliefs can be foolish. Of course some of the wisest words I have ever heard, came form fools.
A Troubled Man, I pointed out your belief. And you are no better than religious people.
No, it was my understanding, not my belief. Sorry.
Your understanding, in this case, is just as subjective as a religious person's is about his religion.
What joke you have created in this website, A Troubled Man- you come here to make people clear minded, while you are in belief with science. Science is your religion,
I MUST now?
Most believers here believe the same nonsense and they fervently and dishonestly continue to spew the same nonsense, despite facts to the contrary.
Welcome to their club.
Well, I can say time will tell until God is proven. You can cling onto beliefs that a magical spark set off the Big Bang and ignoramuses like Christians can cling onto the belief that God exists and set off the Big Bang.
Sorry, but you've already had thousands of years, the time is up.
A magical spark? So, you really don't know anything about the big bang, then? Why would anyone make a choice based on not knowing anything about the choices?
LMAO! The time is up, hey? Maybe it is because it is so complex that people haven't figured it out yet.
How did the Big Bang come into existence? No one knows that is why the Hadron Collider is being used for. So we can get answers. Still...even if they succeed, and we won't be around to find out, they still used something that already existed to make something else come into existence.
So...how about giving me a lesson on the Big Bang?
A Troubled Man doesn't give lessons.
He /she only gives opinions, ridicule and criticism.
That's his/her speciality. (NOTE; NO hubs... I rest my case.)
No, those are personal insults, not a case. Perhaps, you need some help understanding the difference between making a case and focusing on the individual?
Yes, it is reasonable to understand that believers consider their one dimensional beliefs complex.
Because, we would need years of schooling of other subjects and criteria in order for you to have even the remotest understanding of what was being presented. That is made evident in all of your posts.
It would be far better for you to not comment on anything scientific as it only makes you look very foolish.
However, there are boatloads of material on the subject in books and on the internet for you to get started on building an education.
Have you finished high school yet?
You still haven't given me a lesson on what sparked off the Big Bang? If you are ruling out a magical spark, then what happened?
The truth of the matter is, you just don't know.
Then, you probably didn't read my post in which it was clearly explained that you have a great deal of education to fulfill before you are able to digest anything about the Big Bang. Of course, that answer has yet to be discovered.
And, neither do you. It is an answer that has yet to be discovered.
Of course, in the meantime while scientists are trying to find those answers, you can either go back to your bible or try to get an education so that one day you may understand the answers when they are discovered.
Yes, of course that answer needs to be discovered. Just like the existence of God. Is it God who initiated the Big Bang or was it a flint that sparked it off? If this issue is in contention, how can you automatically rule out one if the choice is between two hypothesis?
A Troubled Man wrote:
"Why do you persist in asking questions regarding concepts that you clearly have no understanding? You don't even understand the very elementary basics of evolution."
Troubled Man, now that is what you said to one of the other participants in this forum.
Is that not an example of "getting personal?" Is that not an example of spatting an insult at someone else? Is that not an example of behavior that the "admins" would consider to be inappropriate?
A Troubled Man Wrote:
"Good point, I will hence treat liars with the respect they deserve."
Now, why can't you be cool? Why do you have to accuse people who disagree with you of being liars?
They aren't disagreeing, they are simply lying and that is being pointed out.
Okay. For the sake of keeping the peace, I will take your word for it.
I would never be satisfied if others just take my word for it, I would much rather they confirm themselves.
Hey feenix! Its nice to see you. A troubled man's only argument is that religious people are lying. He never tires of saying it.
Obviously then, religious people never tire of lying.
Or, as is more likely, you can't handle the truth.
To be guilty of lying, one has to know the truth, but does not convey it, but something they KNOW to be false.
The issue here is, which of you knows the TRUTH?
So, Christians are not lying. They speak the truth.
But, like many others, you call the truth anything but what it is, TRUTH.
(Fairy tales, myths, legends, delusions, to name I few I have seen. )
Hey, Troubled Man, please stop calling "religious people" liars.
Just as atheists believe that there is evidence that God does not exist, "religious people" believe that there is evidence that He does exist.
So, what it all boils down to is, arguments between atheists and people who believe in God are nothing but Mexican standoffs.
The only one who knows what is actually true is God, because His presence was realized long before you stepped foot into this world and His presence will continue to be realized long after you drop dead.
In other words, you are nothing but a mere mortal who is going to die someday and go on to turn into dust, and God is immortal and everlasting. He will never die.
Finally, the reason why you cannot bring yourself to believe that God exists is you do not understand.
No, you don't understand because "believing" stems from something that you do not have the privilege of having -- which is blind faith.
And one who does not have faith is indeed a miserable soul.
In fact, misery is what drives individuals to commit such crimes as wrecklessly accusing others of being liars.
Only when they stop lying.
Except, believers have never shown anyone their evidence. Can we see it, please?
Yes, reality vs. magical kingdom.
Religious brainwashing will continue, but not for too long. Several more generations and we'll begin to see God placed firmly on the shelf alongside the other myths.
And, you understand magic?
In other words, I lack the ignorance to believe.
<--- Me being miserable
Really? I always thought it was because the liars were lying. Now, we know better.
Everybody lies. It doesn't matter whether you are religious or Atheist.
Everyone knows that everyone lies and besides, that was not the point of what she wrote.
Her point is, during those times when an individual is troubled, he/she is more prone to act violently towards others by doing such things as shooting accusations at them.
Man makes God in his image. This is why different gods take on the culture of the people who worship them.
Muldania, You speak the truth! Those who worship dead gods can make anything their god, and that will get them nowhere but hell.
However, if man were to choose Jesus, the LIVING God, they would see and experience things they would never imagine, the miracles of a true and living God, who loves even the most vile person enough to give them the opportunity to make things right, and choose life!
It is actually very saddening to see people go day to day thinking they are somebody, only to be fooled in the end by their own pride and face hell fire.
Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my household we will serve the Lord
Thank you for the opportunity to summarize Joshua 24:15.
May God-the Living God bless you with knowledge, wisdom, and open eyes that you may see and understand the truth, that may save your soul from an eternity separated from the Maker.
To: The Troubled Man
I believe the following:
(1) God does exist
(2) Jesus is the Son of God
(3) The Immaculate Conception actually happened
(4) Jesus died on The Cross for everyone's sins
(5) The Holy Resurrection actually happened
On the other hand, you do not believe that any one of the preceding is the case -- and that is cool with me.
I am not going to put you down because you have views that are different from mine.
And I am not going to hurl insults at you, nor am I going to accuse you of being such things as ignorant, brainwashed, unaware, a believer in myths, and/or a liar -- just because you and I do not share the same views on what could be described as a particular issue.
It is not my job to tell anyone else how to think, nor am I supposed to have the audacity to tell others that the way they think is inferior to the way I think.
You see, I fought in a war and one of the things I learned after being shot at and staring death in the face, on numerous occasions, is just how dumb and stupid nearly all human beings are.
While being pinned down by heavy enemy fire, being scared to nearly to death and realizing the stupidity and futility of it all, something that I consider to be quite significant came to mind.
I came to see that one of the primary reasons why there are wars is numerous human beings believe, or are thoroughly convinced, that the ways in which they see things is superior to the ways in which others see things.
As examples, Christians believe that the way they see things is superior to the way Muslims see things and vice versa -- communists believe that their views on socio-economic and political issues are superior to those of capitalists and vice versa -- and atheists believe that those who believe in God are ignorant and out of touch and vice versa.
Yes, because I have been under fire on numerous occasions, and found myself standing on the threshold to death, I know that the only way there will ever be peace on earth is for human beings to cease and desist their frequent practice of holding themselves above others, and holding their ways of thinking above those of others.
Thus, atheists who accuse believers of God of being such things as liars and ignorant, and believers of God who accuse atheists of being wicked sinners and the such, are little more than war mongers.
And I must admit that I am as guilty as anyone else of being a "war monger." I have a whole truckload of character defects.
I get that, and while I have a serious problem with childhood indoctrination, there isn't much one can do at this point other than to get an education so they can understand those beliefs are based on myths and that magic doesn't exist.
I won't put YOU down either, however I will criticize those irrational beliefs because they have been the cause of millions of death, genocides, wars and host of other atrocities committed in the name of Jesus.
I'm not sure how you can accuse me of anything other than presenting reality, which is what I try to do in the face of the irrational and illogical.
Unfortunately, there is no thinking involved when one is indoctrinated into religion, only beliefs.
Then, based on your logic, Christianity must go the way of the dodo.
So, atheists are war mongers because Christians are ignorant and liars. Excellent logic. LOL!
Correct, A Troubled Man, that wasn't an argument. But it is faith-based. Have a great day!!!
To: The Troubled Man
Straight up, my friend, the kind of intolerance for the opinions of others that you are demonstrating in this forum exemplifies the reason why there have been so many wars and conflicts in this world.
In recent times, such atheist states as the old Soviet Union, Red China and Cuba have have fueled more wars and atrocities than any offensive actions taken in the name of religion ever did.
For example, how many people were eliminated by the orders of the atheist Soviet Union leaders Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin? Five-million, 10-million, 20-million?
Furthermore, how many people were eliminated by the atheist Red China leader Mao tse-Tung? Twenty-million, 30-million, 50-million?
The point is, when it comes to carrying out deadly conflicts, wars and atrocities, no single group of human beings has a monopoly on that kind of behavior.
Straight up, that would ensure the complete denial of history on your part.
Perhaps, you need to understand the concept of Communism, its origins and postulates.
What does any of that have to do with the atrocities committed in the name of your God?
Are you saying we shouldn't adopt Communism and should adopt Christianity, even though both have brought about millions of deaths?
Seriously, dude. Are you sure you're making a valid argument here?
To: A Troubled Man
One of the things that my vast knowledge of human behavior tells me about you is that you have a profound need to be seen as one who is smarter and more informed than everyone else.
So, check it out, stud. Since I now know that you really do have a very deep need to be seen as an important and relevant person, I will yield to you.
You're number one. You're the champ. You're The One Who Knows All There Is To Know. You're my daddy.
Or, I'm just a guy who can see reality for what it is and don't need to create fantasy laden faith based realities to appease an invisible sky fairy.
I would be willing to bet that you get your kicks by going around telling little kids there is no such thing as Santa Claus.
Yes, and I eat babies for breakfast, too.
At least it's nowhere near as bad as brainwashing little kids to believe they'll burn for an eternity if they don't accept Jesus as their savior, or that God flooded the world and killed everyone and everything on it, or how God made a wager with Satan that Job wouldn't kill his own son and then put it to the test.
Yes, telling little kids that Santa Claus doesn't really exist must be devastating to their fragile minds.
How is evangelism working for you, anyways?
This forum is not about Judaism or Christianity. It is about God.
Really? If it's about God, why are talking about little kids and Santa Claus, and why is it in the form of a personal insult?
Who created God is moot. Even if there is an infinite regression of Gods, the One who count is our God who created everything in our existence. We must complete "what is" (Qua) here and now before even imagining other gods. Imagining now is futile.
So silly... there is plain as day evidence of a creator right in front of your faces every day, you breathe it, you ingest it, you think it, everything in existence works by it. Its called law. There are basic laws that everything is bound to and follows. You cannot break the laws of gravity can you? No, gravity is there, you can use machines to fight the hold of gravity, but you cannot remove it. Just look at math, yes something as simple as math. Everything, the planets, the stars, the gases the liquids the solids, they are all bound by laws. For there to be law there has to be understanding, for there to be understanding there has to be reason. For there to be reason there must be consciousness. There is obvious order and planning in everything, otherwise nothing would work, and we wouldn't exist to ask the questions we do everyday.
First, I am very pleased to be making your acquaintance.
Second, your contribution to this forum is absolutely awesome, beautiful and very well written.
Moreover, what you wrote is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
It is an honor to be making your acquaintance as well, Captain. Thank you sincerely for your comments. I think it is silly that people still cannot see the obvious. I think a troubled man has worried too much about the things men who do not truly understand God's will have done in his name. There are many who call themselves Christians, not understanding who Christ is, or what he would truly want. It has been recorded by the apostles as to what he wants us to do, which would change the face of this planet even as we know it today, if only everyone would listen. It is my favorite quote from the bible. THE 2 GREATEST COMMANDMENTS FROM THE MOUTH OF JESUS. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." [Matt22:37-40] He speaks again of law here, very important to understand TRUE LAWS cannot be removed, and that TRUE PROPHETS TRULY LOVE THEIR GOD AND THEIR NEIGHBORS. Right in front of our faces, plain as day, we know it in our hearts to be true deep down inside, yet we cannot seem to grasp that concept to its fullest depth. We touch love a little here and there, and even fool ourselves into believing something is love when it is not, but to have a love so deep that you love your God above all else and your neighbor as you love yourself (including enemies), that humbles me, that brings me to my knees in awe. Who among you can honestly say that you have this kind of love? I would like to believe I do, but I would be lying to myself. I still hold grudges at times, and cast judgment when I should not, and do things I should not, which means I am weak and I cause misery at times with my actions and choices, but I am trying to be conscious of these things with Jesus' help, I am trying to fulfill those commandments, and that is what is important, and Jesus knows this and our God knows this. So again, if any of you still question the proof of our Creator, just think on the laws of mathematics and the basic laws of the universe, gravity etc..
What's funny about that being obvious is those people were Church leaders who would firmly disagree with anyone telling them they didn't understand God's will, especially by one of their followers.
even church leaders can be wrong troubled man... and I never claimed to follow any of them... the only person I ever claim allegiance to is Jesus the Christ. But as soon as you can come up with some proof to your beliefs like I did for you troubled man, then maybe I will pay more heed to your opinions. If you still cannot see the truth in my posts then you are just being difficult and obtuse. It looks like you are here just trying to persuade people to be as miserable as you are, regardless of any truths passed on. If you care about anyone other than yourself you would take a few moments to reflect on the true wisdom passed on here from those who have obviously taken the time to do real research and reflection on these topics. It just seems to me that you are angry and just want to be angry.. so when you get that out of your system, maybe we could have a true intellectual discussion about the many beliefs of the many religions.
You are truly a good person. That is quite clear to me.
A Troubled Man wrote:
Really? Then, you should be able to provide the relevant Bible quotes that say God is NOT a thing and is NOT a part of "everything".
Hey, Man, this is not school and you are not one of my teachers.
Therefore, I don't have to complete any assignments for you.
True, it is a public discussion forum in which anyone can say whatever they want and never have to substantiate a thing, at the expense of their credibility, though.
You believe that I lack credibility?
Cool. I wear that as a Badge of Honor.
Not really, it's just something that is becoming evident in your posts.
Okay, I lack credibility.
Accusations such as that come with the territory when one writes in public venues.
Especially, when they make claims and can't substantiate them. Why would you want to do that?
Feenix doesn't lack credibility. He has something to say based on real life. You're still crying about what teachers said to you in nursery school. Your posts are that rudimentary.
why dont you stop trying to annoy feenix and come up with something to prove my statements wrong troubled man... I obviously have you caught in your foolishness and you just want to ignore it. Someday you may grow up, we all wait for that day.
To whom it may concern:
The "vote downs" are childish little acts.
I had to step in. The troubled woman seems to be someone's sockpuppet, whose chief motive is to disturb good discussions, and get some attention to her infantilism.
Report on her profile. Don't respond to her posts. Don't feed the psychopath.
You seem to laugh much without cause. That's a good way to suppress grief and psychosis.
Really? Are you now stating that I'm suppressing grief and psychosis when I laugh hysterically at your posts, or could it be that your posts are just very funny nonsensical word salads? I suspect the latter.
"We ever need the fool, for without him, we would never question what we think we know". Zen prose
Oh, I see now, your insults were never meant to be personal.
Your personal insults are still going over my head?
Something has hit troubled woman's psychosis.
It seems he seeks some form of agreement, then again, maybe he likes to argue. I bet he doesn't have too many friends in life. The fantasy of a truly self involved person.
So, in your opinion. Do you think you are better than everyone ele here in the HP? I am detecting a Naoleonic complex, though I may be mistaken.
I also think that. Have you read her name? -Pretty instructive to her character.
"nonsensical word salads"... Do you just not understand the english language? Are you just blind to truth? I agree with mischeviousme, now you are just being a fool since I have provided you with solid evidence of my beliefs. It is apparent to me that you just do not WANT to believe in any of it, and your smiley face isnt fooling anyone, you cannot hide the anger and misery in your words.
It is said that the biggest fool, is an itelligent person that thinks they know everything. Though I think we all act the part, for we are just guessing. We create this world as we move along and everything we make of it, is just an illusion.
I do not claim to know everything, but I do know that I have spent some time of my life devoted to the pursuit of knowledge on some topics.
Understanding the English language and accepting the fantasies of believers are two completely different, according to English language definitions.
Yes, you have provided solid evidence that you are a believer. However, your beliefs are pure fantasy.
<--- Anger and misery
So explain to me then the laws of the universe... wait no take a step back.. lets.. look at the definition of LAW in Merriam Webster. I'm going to take a piece of it to shorten this post down, you can look at the rest of it at the webster's website:
" a general relation proved or assumed to hold between mathematical or logical expressions "
Even the definition man has for law plainly states that it is proved or assumed to hold between mathematical expressions as well... well lets look at the definition of MATHEMATICS from Merriam Webster:
" the SCIENCE of numbers and their operations, interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations "
A quote from the definition of SCIENCE:
"1: the state of KNOWING : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding "
And from the definition of KNOWING:
" 1: having or reflecting KNOWLEDGE, information, or INTELLIGENCE
2 a : shrewdly and keenly alert : astute <a knowing observer>
b : indicating possession of exclusive inside knowledge or information <a knowing smile>
4: DELIBERATE "
Back to the definition of LAW:
"a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a CONTROLLING AUTHORITY."
And back to my original point of everything in our existence is bound by these rules, we explain everything in our universe with MATHEMATICS and SCIENCE which follow basic LAWS, proven to only exist under the CONTROLLING AUTHORITY of a COGNITIVE INTELLIGENCE with DELIBERATE intentions!!!! Most people call him God, like Jesus did.
You have given no proof whatsoever your God or Jesus or whatever magical super being you wish to refer controls any laws. Where is your proof of your magical being?
Then you obviously didnt read, or understand the post, maybe when you get an intelligence yourself you can understand the words that are written here. I never claimed there was any magical being at all.. all I did was use simple definitions from the dictionary to prove the existence of a cognitive intelligence with controlling authority over basic laws that the entirety of existence adheres to and obeys... now you are just arguing against the dictionary too which makes you even sillier...
and you can't even come up with a decent rebuttal to anything ive posted.. im done wasting my time with you.. like I said, when you actually come up with proof for your point of view I will speak with you again. Ive shown you the proof without even using the bible. I will pray for you troubled man, that you may be given intelligence and wisdom one day to see the truth, until that time, I guess we will endure your trolling.
I understood it just fine. It was a bunch of definitions. That's it.
Sorry, but the dictionary is not proof of your imaginary super being.
It's true the dictionary is not the proof, it is Science and Law that proves it. The proof is already there and has always been there, your ignorance to see the signs when they hit you in the face is the only thing you have.
Hilarious. Your posts just keep getting more ridiculous. Now you claim science and laws proves your invisible sky fairy?
Stop signs? Yield to slippery slope ahead signs?
Science and Law are the fingerprints of his existence.
I havent seen his hands, nor do i know if he even has hands or a set physical being, ive only seen his fingerprints left on our existence. Science and Law! You can try to deny the fact that they are proof of his existence but that just means you dont understand Science and Law so.. educate yourself and we shall talk more.
How are my claims bogus? Just like one would find fingerprints of a person who touched a glass, or ran their finger across a window covered with condensation, just because the person is not physically there at that moment does not mean that person does not exist....
lol i already supported them with evidence... just because you don't want to believe the evidence doesn't make the evidence any less evident. I have nothing to do with the evidences existence, it already exists. And you saying "utter nonsense" over and over again without having any good arguments is just a waste of both of our times. Debates usually have 2 people with decent arguments to back up their points of view, I have provided plenty of evidence supporting my point of view, the only thing you have provided us with is a clear understanding that you are just going to say over and over again, you do not want to believe no matter if it is true or not.
Just because i have faith does not mean my means of proving my statement are all faith based, as a matter of fact if you see how i proved it, you would notice that I didnt use anything out of the bible or from any other religion. I used 2 words that you will hear nearly every day, and their definitions alone. So apparently to you, words are useless.
Perhaps, Goldenbird is a misogynist who believes inferiority is being female.
Im beginning to think hes actually just an agent of satan, maybe one of the third of the angels that were cast out from heaven to be a sore upon the earth and an affliction to mankind... maybe we should just call him troubled demon
Call me whatever you like if makes you feel superior.
I only feel aggravated by your ignorance to the truth and your attempts to persuade people of the truth.
Let it go and be peaceful. We cannot will him to change, that is a journey of his own.
I'm just wondering what you are doing on these forums. Just to laugh at people? Don't you have anything better to do? Do something constructive inside of pulling others down! We were not put on this earth to pull others down for our amusement!
Well, I could take up religion and fill these forums with lies about science and evolution, or rail at homosexuals, or tell everyone they'll burn for an eternity if they don't accept Jesus, if that would make you feel better and make it appear constructive.
Great answer! I respect you more with every comment. While the belief is beautiful, it comes across as crass and dehumanizing.
Instead of dehumanizing others, we should laugh with them and find the enlightenment of it, uplifting. He is absolutely right, even if it is his own concept of truth, so then are we all. That is a unifying reality, we see things with our own eyes and we judge as we see it.
The only thing I will ever ask her, is, can't she speak a little nicer?
We do judge as we see it, but obviously our judgments are not always accurate, we see miscalculations all the time in judgment. It is important to recognize our unintended consequences and to learn from life. I will quote from Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master) about buddhism:
"The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances."
May this be a guide on your paths to enlightenment as it is on mine. These things can be very hard to achieve, especially in todays society.
That's not the point what Christians do. I'm asking you what YOU are doing here. How is it constructive?
What ATM is doing is countering stupidity with nonsense!
Constructive? If spreading religion is constructive, he is constructive just like any other believer.
Yes, it is. Some much worse than others.
I would ask the same question of you. Why are you here making up or propagating lies about science? How is that constructive?
You still haven't told me why you are here. I'm asking YOU! Stop skirting around this question!
What am I doing here? I'm hoping people can learn from me regarding the topic of the forum as I have learnt from others. I'm just a bit puzzled about me lying about science. Refresh my memory? Are you referring to energy not being able to be created? If you don't understand this fact, then I can't help you.
I think you should also differentiate between being misinformed and lying. Lying is a deliberate attempt to deceive while claiming something that isn't correct while that person believes it to be true is just ignorance.
Try to keep your focus on the subject matter rather than me.
No, they are lying when their lies are exposed and they continue to embrace their lies.
I don't need to refresh your memory as I've exposed lies as they've appeared. If you actually believe you don't remember that, then that would say quite a bit about your honesty.
you havent exposed anything other than your lack of understanding and ability to read
LMAO! ATM, anyone who disagrees with you is a liar. It's extremely childish to think that way. So you think your purpose in life is to expose lies about invisible sky fairies and science. You set for yourself low goals in life.
Give me one lie that you have exposed. I do remember but let's go over again what constitutes a lie in the example you will give me.
In your last post you claimed I didn't know how the spiritual world works which implied that you do. That's one of many.
You don't know how the spiritual world works. That's not a lie. I technically cannot know everything about the spiritual world because I have a finite mind. It would be a lie to say I knew everything about it. Having experiences with it, I can surmise that something appearing and disappearing out of thin air means the object has just gone from one frequency to another frequency we cannot detect. Here's an example: if you change the dial of a radio to change from the radio station you are currently listening to another one, the previous radio station doesn't seize to play music, it has just gone out of our frequency range.
If you believe radio frequencies, why not believe in spirits made of frequencies that can tune in and out of our dimension? How do you know that this isn't so? How do you know this is a blatant lie? As I said, anything you don't agree with, or don't want to agree with, is a lie to you.
That is one of the reasons why you know so little about anything, because you "believe" and you don't think.
I don't "believe" in radio frequencies, I understand them. So, I don't believe nor understand "spirits made of frequencies" because there's absolutely no evidence for their existence whatsoever, so obviously there's nothing to understand.
Because you just made it up out of thin air.
No, those who tell lies are lying.
You mean you've got no evidence for it. All evidence paranormal investigators have are clearly nonsense just because you don't want to believe in it. The concept is sound.
Two hundreds years ago if you claimed X-Rays existed people would have laughed at you. Just because they had no evidence of it clearly didn't mean X-Rays didn't exist. So for you to just dismiss things because it doesn't come to you on a silver plate is just plain foolish.
No, because paranormal investigators have no evidence at all. Simple really.
Your example is a fallacy and silly, too. Obviously, if someone claimed X-rays existed, they had some evidence. Are you saying they just made it up out of thin air like you do?
You think they have no evidence. I hardly think you have consulted all of them in the world.
Regarding the X-Rays, if people don't understand what X-Rays are then they aren't going to accept any evidence.
You just ASSUME I make things up. You have no way of knowing that. You must be the most close minded person on this earth.
What does this have to do with me? Paranormal investigators are charlatans and frauds, they have never produced one iota of evidence.
Yes, I know when you are making stuff up when the facts are presented and they have nothing to do with whatever it was you made up.
I'm sure you probably read or hear that stuff, too and you may be just parroting it. It still boils down to the same thing; nonsense.
So you have asked every paranormal investigator for evidence and they failed to do so?
Do you do anything else in life but call people liars? It achieves nothing and you know it.
No paranormal investigator has brought an iota of evidence to light, anywhere, anytime. Why do you believe that has anything to do with me?
Yes, do you do anything else in life but lie?
It exposes liars for what they are.
I would suspect it is lying that achieves nothing, but perhaps you don't agree with that?
As I said, have you visited every paranormal investigator and debunked their evidence? No, you have not.
I don't see anything constructive from our conversations. You refuse to see anything that doesn't conform to your version of reality. It's dangerous because it leads to deception.
If you want to be deceived, then go for it. Just don't make it my problem. Don't address me in future.
Wow, you just don't get it, they don't have any evidence to debunk. Do you understand that?
My reality is your reality, we all share it. I don't refuse to see anything that is there to see.
I will point out your deceptions and false statements whenever I like.
Do you consider yourself a Bodhisattva of sorts? I ask sincerely.
You continue to show how well you grasp the concepts that you uncovered yourself, mischievious. Not messin' with you! Truth.
Is it not good to know that God is sovereign but man has free will? Obviously, this is a paradox. I have a problem saying this. Jesus did not have a problem saying this complication. He says it with confidence. I cannot. He seemed able to understand its harmony. I couldn't.
I'm glad I have this problem of understanding this. It only tells me that I am not God. It only tells me I have this puny little limited brain. And finally, it tells me the deity of Jesus Christ.
We cannot know everything God knows. We only know what was revealed to us whether it be scriptural, spiritual, or psychological.
He is the Alpha and the Omega. No one created Him.
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