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Ending Christianity won't mean no more religion

  1. lizzieBoo profile image78
    lizzieBooposted 4 years ago

    Some people like to comfort themselves with the idea that if they get rid rid of horrible-old Christianity from the world, we will be left with nice, peaceful nihilism. I would like to point out that if you trample away Christianity, we won't be left with the unity of blissful non-belief, we will be left with every other belief to contend with. The great GK Chesterton once said, "when people stop believing in God, they don't stop believing in everything, they start to believe in ANYTHING".
    I suggest that in this modern world, and in the absence of Christianity, there is a very real danger we will descend into a veritable Babel in which people are increasingly unable to understand one another.

    It is easy to take for granted the freedoms we enjoy within the legacy of our Christian culture. It is a bit like teenagers rallying against parents for having too much authority, failing to recognise the protection and nurture they would loose without them.

    For all my questions, sometimes doubts and irritation I may feel about authority and institutions, I am only too aware, in this otherwise dangerous world, of how the benefits of a Christian culture out- weigh the harms by miles.

    I await a torrent of abuse.

    1. lizzieBoo profile image78
      lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This is more what I'm trying to say.

    2. Castlepaloma profile image21
      Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      How about being able to think boundless or limitless rather than believing in anything. Unless your mind dose not shorting follow up from your heart you world can end up in disbelief

      1. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Well, that would be nice, but people aren't like that en-mass. People will huddle into groups, time and again.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image21
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, people are very social creature like wolves, yet for most part , people can be led around like blinded magic sheep.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            True, but the unspoken axiom for that is that ANY group that people choose to be a part of will have that effect. That includes atheism. And while many atheists pride themselves on being "free, deep thinkers" (and that's not just a Christian being snarky, I used to be on the other side until about 21 years of age with no family history of Christianity to "indoctrinate" me with,) the fact is that relativel few of them are. That goes for Christians as well, I admit, but a greater percentage of atheists claim the mantle.
            Thinking boundlessly does not automatically lead people to the conclusion that there is no God. Many great thinkers have come to the conclusion that there is. I don't mean that they became Christians, many haven't, but they have still concluded that random chance is simply unable to answer many of the most basic questions. String Theory, non-Darwinion evolution Krauss' theory are all fascinating, but they fail to answer the most basic question.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I have never heard of an atheist ever making that claim.



              Those "many great thinkers" obviously don't understand that random chance was never concluded in the first place. Seems they are not great thinkers at all, but poorly informed thinkers.



              And, what would that be?

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                If you don't know, then that explains a lot.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, it explains that I can't read your mind.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Wow. Deep.

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                They may or may not have said it in so many words, but it's certainly the undercurrent of the ones I have dealt with.

                Including you!

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  So, you really didn't meet Jesus, you're just saying that because...?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Hah? Which was that a reply to?

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          But, Christianity will make damn sure you aren't part of their group, time and again. lol

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Ah, now I see what your problem is.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image21
              Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              He has a point

              Most of them do treat me like an out cast because if I don't over obey the good book and yet  I'm harmless.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                He has no point, he just likes to yell a lot.
                As for your point, I wish I could say you don't have one, but unfortunately you do. However, that does not mean that atheists, as a group, don't also engage in this practice. They simply weren't large enough as a group to really make themselves known until recently. But yes, many Christians do practice exclusion, which is contrary to what Jesus practiced. Jesus went to the people who were hurting and outcast and told them about the good news that God really does love them. He also told everybody that we need to get our acts together.

                You, as one person, may be harmless. It's hard to tell from one or two postings. I don't know who you influence or how you influence them. Of course, the same is true for me. But it's absolutely untrue to say that what we do affects only ourselves (I don't know if you personally say that, but many atheists do.) And that's why what we believe and tell others makes such a difference. I'm sorry that you've been ostracized. I hope that you find Jesus.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image21
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, he is pushy, yet he dose have a point too, like anyone else and atheist are people too. By my own personal experience, Christian have treated me like an outcast, from jobs, family and you can't get elected in North America  Government unless your Christian, all because I do not believe Jesus is the only way to God

                  Would you say that is extremely bigoted and one sided by Christians

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    So much to work with, here....
                    ATM is pushy but my experience with him is that he just looks for the point where (at least in his mind) he becomes justified in just standing there and saying nasty things about you. He seems to be changing, but I've thought that about him before.

                    Yes, atheists are people too, and when they are interested in actual discussion I find it worthwhile to discuss. I don't agree with  their ultimate point (that there is no God) but many of their peripherals do need to be addressed. It would be disingenuous of me to say that the church has been all good throughout history, and I don't do that, but it's equally disingenuous of others to claim that it's ALL bad, and always has been. In any case, although Christians can be argumentative, I've found that (as a group) atheists are more than equal to that.

                    Have you read "UnChristian" by David Kinnaman? I'm reading it right now. A tad depressing from my point of view, but some good stuff.
                    Again, I'm sorry that you've been ostracized. It would be easy to say (again) that I don't know you or how you act but the fact is that Jesus has commanded us to love others, even when we don't want to. And the fact is that we, as human beings, tend to want to just stick "with our own." I'm sorry.

                    As for getting elected to government, I think that's still really only true for presidents (and two of the last three seem a little suspect.) Many local and state leaders (and here I'm specifically thinking of Barney Frank, but  there are others) who aren't Christian but they still get elected. Things are changing. The question is, are they changing for the better?

      2. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "Is Jesus white  blond and blue eyes or was that brown skin and brown eyes?"

        Wow. Deep.

        Well, we know that Jesus was a Jewish man living in Syria Palestine in the 1st Century. So you tell me, what do you think?

    3. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      That is an entirely false premise.



      And, they too will vanish eventually. No worries.

      ]

      LOL! He also said these words...

      "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."

      "You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it."



      Christians have already created that world and we can see their "understanding" here every day.



      If our world is a "dangerous world" as you suggest, then look to Christianity for that origin, especially if you believe removing Christianity will make things worse.

      Again, a believer is hoisted by their own petard. lol

      1. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        There has always been religion. What makes you think this time will be different?
        Have you ever tried to imagine what would happen if China, say, were to conquer America and America had to live under the thumb of an authority that didn't allow religion? We go on and on about how the Catholic church doesn't allow people to use condoms. Imagine being under a law which demanded the life-long use of contraceptives. A law which forces abortions on couples who don't have permission to have more children. Imagine too, living under Saudi Arabian law, in which a person can be hanged for adultery. Or in Afghanistan, where a person can be boiled alive for perjury. Anyone knowing these things can surely not dismiss what has helped us gain freedom from these things.

        My point is that we take for granted the things which are unimaginable luxuries for members of other nations. We are  free, perhaps too free to live as we please in the west. It is Christianity which allows us these freedoms. You are naive to think everything would vanish and leave us free to make our own minds up. Any knowledge of humanity will tell you that's never going to happen.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          And, with religions comes conflict, war, genocide, intolerance, racism, hatred, oppression, ignorance and murder in the name of religion. We can easily make that different.



          Your misinformed opinions about China are still misinformed. I see you have learned nothing. Notice how religion has affected your capacity to learn?



          Who would make such a ridiculous law? Again, notice how religion has destroyed your capacity to link one concept to another?



          Religion has told us to go forth and multiply, which has caused a population explosion around the world. Notice how religion did not plan our lives very well.



          lol Your talking about religion ruling those countries laws. You make a case against religion. LOL!



          Once again, your uninformed opinions about freedom are a result of religious beliefs.



          If we were to rely on the knowledge YOU have provided, the case against religion is very strong indeed. lol

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry, which facts on China are misinformed? As usual it is difficult to get through your answer as you seem to be against writing in paragraphs. Which ridiculous law are you referring to?
            I referred to 2 countries with inhumane laws. One is religious, the other secular and your argument is still, look how religion ruins everything. You're being very childish.

            Perhaps you should stop laughing and start considering the plight of the Chinese as a serious one.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We have been down this road before and a lot of evidence has been put right in front of you that clearly refutes your misinformed opinions about China.



              No, you dishonestly posted your own misinformed opinions about 2 countries.

              Did you know America is a secular country?



              Thank you, Miss Kettle. lol



              Based on your misinformed opinions about China? lol

              1. lizzieBoo profile image78
                lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ah, so you won't answer my question.
                My very good friend has been living in China for several years. Infanticide has been a problem there on a big scale for decades. She found a newborn baby on a rubbish dump and had to wait 9 hours for the police to arrive since it wasn't seen as that big a deal. It happens all the time you see.
                Everything I have said has been in the news at various times. You could easily find them for yourself.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  But, it's obvious you have never been there.



                  Yes, pretty much the amount of time religions have been sacrificing children to appease their gods.



                  I tried to find what you were saying and found it be complete hogwash, and not just a various times. lol

                  1. lizzieBoo profile image78
                    lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No, I've never been there. Did I say I had? I haven't been to Africa either but I still send aid there.

                    Sacrificing children? Don't know many religions that do that.

                    If you are determined to see the suffering of the Chinese through rose-tinted glasses, there is nothing I can say really.

        2. WD Curry 111 profile image60
          WD Curry 111posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          That is just Marxist rhetoric. It doesn't matter what you say. They just follow the sentence map.

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I'm not sure if I know what you mean?

    4. secularist10 profile image91
      secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Well, Lizzie, I am sure you will consider this "abuse" but I don't agree.

      I don't understand why nihilism and Christianity are our only choices. And yes, there are many religions out there, but Christianity is the biggest and most influential by far, so it seems like a good place to start.

      Babel--people have never been able to understand each other, lol. This was even more true in times past.

      As for the teenager analogy, you have this backwards. It is the modern Christians who--benefiting from the safety, knowledge, enlightenment and material wealth that secular science, politics and philosophy have given us--lambast the very source of their prosperity.

      A simple example: many creationists, hating the theory of evolution, criticize the scientific method. Yet these same people gladly enjoy airplanes, cell phones, medical diagnostic equipment and computers--none of which would exist without the scientific method.

      You seem to think that in the absence of Christian institutions, there is chaos and confusion. To the contrary, the vast plethora of Christian denominations betray a basic confusion among Christians. As religion has waned, people have realized a unifying desire for human freedom, happiness and well being. That, more than anything, is what guides the lives of billions of people today.

      1. parrster profile image87
        parrsterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        [As religion has waned, people have realised a unifying desire for human freedom, happiness and well being. That, more than anything, is what guides the lives of billions of people today.]

        Secularist, I respect your responses on these forums.
        I agree with so much of what you write, and yet I perceive through a different lens.
        From what I have read of your writing, you have determined that there is no god. Therefore, every other facet of your world view is impacted by this underlying assumption; after all, if belief in God is wrong, then the pursuit of him is wrong, and all religion is wrong also.

        Unlike yourself, I believe in God and that the pursuit of him is healthy; part of man's designed intent. However, I agree that religion can be wrong, but only because it frequently involves manipulating man's natural tendency to ungodly ends; though I don't believe all religion is wrong (after all, I myself am a Christian).

        I suppose the point I am making is that, unless we can come to an agreement of whether God exists or not, there is little hope of us agreeing on whether the pursuit of him is acceptable or not.

        I would suggest that, globally, religion has not waned; though in the West it may have. As you allude, religion has been involved in much harm throughout history that has robbed people of the freedoms and happiness they seek. Therefore, I understand the logic that narrows man's many problems down to his religiosity and concludes that the absence of it would solve those problems.
        But I don't think it's that simple.

        The problem is, we don't agree on the one point that could unite us in our perception of the problem; God's existence.

        1. secularist10 profile image91
          secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          "From what I have read of your writing, you have determined that there is no god. Therefore, every other facet of your world view is impacted by this underlying assumption"

          Actually, no, I do say that there may be a God, there is just no reason to believe in it. Same as with Big Foot, Loch Ness monster, etc. It's possible they exist, but there is no rational or empirical reason to believe it.

          You have the causality wrong; it is my emphasis on naturalism, skepticism, logic and whatnot that informs my non-belief in God, not the other way around. These habits of mind and methodologies, if anything, are what impact everything else. God is as incidental as Big Foot, although I do like to discuss it because it is so popular.

          Belief in God depends, whether the theist realizes it or not, on the more fundamental belief that supernatural explanations are reasonable. But supernaturalism must be legitimated first, before any specific beliefs that stem from it.

          Now, it is possible to believe in God and still agree with everything I said above. There are many people who believe in a God, or a supernatural, who do not belong to a particular established religion. Some just have a vague "spirituality."

          For the most part what I was referring to were real world, measurable facts dealing with the relationship between religion and society/ culture. Even if one believes in the Christian God, one cannot escape the real world benefits of natural science, the greater material wealth among nonreligious populations, etc.

          BTW, I never said eliminating religion will solve all problems. I have never said that, anywhere in my writing. But it is a major component. Other major components include political systems, economic regimes and culture.

          1. parrster profile image87
            parrsterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            [I do say that there may be a God, there is just no reason to believe in it. Same as with Big Foot, Loch Ness monster, etc. It's possible they exist, but there is no rational or empirical reason to believe it.]

            Sorry, my mistake, you're an agnostic, not an atheist. Like I said, though, we see through a different lens. The fact we exist is an absolutely good enough reason to infer a creator. There is a perfectly logical (reasonable) progression from the complexity of design to intelligence of designer; in fact, I would suggest that one has to sidestep reason to assume otherwise. However, the same cannot be suggested of Big foot, so the analogy is moot.

            [But supernaturalism must be legitimated first, before any specific beliefs that stem from it.]

            Ironically, the legitimising is discovered only when one accepts the obviousness of Gods existence. Faith is not so much the step taken toward accepting there is a maker, to me that is logic, but rather it is the step taken toward actively seeking him, to the end that we might know him. This may fly in the face of many who will not believe in God while difficult questions remain unanswered.

            [For the most part what I was referring to were real world, measurable facts dealing with the relationship between religion and society/ culture. Even if one believes in the Christian God, one cannot escape the real world benefits of natural science, the greater material wealth among non-religious populations, etc.]

            Of course, there we come back to the original problem. In referring to 'natural sciences', I assume you refer to arena's of influence not requiring a creator. I suggest such do not exist. Further, there have been many God-fearing scientists throughout history that have benefited mankind, fully accepting that all empirical natural forces must have had a super-natural first cause.
            Statistics can be easily manipulated to speak whatever “truth” the writer intends. I have looked into the religious/irreligious, prosperity/happiness connection and find it strewn with speculation.

            [I never said eliminating religion will solve all problems. I have never said that, anywhere in my writing. But it is a major component. Other major components include political systems, economic regimes and culture.]

            I have been a Christian for several decades, many of the most beautiful people I know are believers; some even scientists of the highest calibre. They are peace loving, community nurturing, hard-working, honest and hope filled people. Everyone of them would tell you that God is the key-stone to their lives, their life-changing faith in Him (not some vague "spirituality.") being the driving force behind their life-choices. Therefore to suggest that the world would be a better place without  the “component” of such like-minded people, is alarming to say the least.

            1. secularist10 profile image91
              secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              "The fact we exist is an absolutely good enough reason to infer a creator."

              Well you are DEFINITELY going to have to flesh that out. We exist because of evolution, because of the chemical and physical laws that have produced this solar system, this planet, etc.

              There is no reason why our existence should say anything affirmative or negative about an all-powerful creator of the universe who has a plan.

              "There is a perfectly logical (reasonable) progression from the complexity of design to intelligence of designer; in fact, I would suggest that one has to sidestep reason to assume otherwise."

              To the contrary, the logical thing is to say complex things arise from less complex things. That's what the Big Bang and evolution of the universe indicate. That's why almost all the matter in the known universe is composed of the simplest element--Hydrogen.

              Complexity arises spontaneously in nature all the time, because of the way atoms and subatomic particles bind to each other. That's what natural chemical reactions often do--combine simple substances to create complex ones.

              In addition, it is a classical fallacy to say that a complex thing must be created by an even more complex mind. For this creates an infinite regress: what created that even more complex mind? Something even more complex, etc. If, on the other hand, the theist will claim that that most complex mind (i.e. God) was uncreated, then there is no reason why the complex universe or anything else that is complex cannot be uncreated too. Thus there is no logical need for a complex thing to be created by a complex mind.

              Natural science as it is practiced today, whatever the personal beliefs of scientists themselves, explicitly does not allow a supernatural into its methodology. I have written about the development of science away from its roots in the church and toward the more secular realm.

              I wrote a short series of hubs detailing the negative relationship between religiosity and human well being. This was the last one, a summary and conclusions, and (predictably) quite controversial:

              http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/Re … -Wellbeing

              There is abundant data supporting this conclusion, from a variety of sources and a variety of fields. Far too much to write it off as "speculative."

              1. parrster profile image87
                parrsterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                [We exist because of evolution, because of the chemical and physical laws that have produced this solar system, this planet, etc.]

                I accept micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution; a theory presented as fact for far too long.
                http://old.apologeticspress.org/articles/1985

                [To the contrary, the logical thing is to say complex things arise from less complex things.]

                Except that all observed cases in which complex things are derived from less complex things demand an already existing machine that is at least as complex as that which it produces.

                [Complexity arises spontaneously in nature all the time]

                Not by understanding of the word 'spontaneously' they don't. And the complexity we are talking about is far more elaborate than a few atoms banging together or the accidental mixing of chemicals.

                [In addition, it is a classical fallacy to say that a complex thing must be created by an even more complex mind.]

                It may be classical, but it isn't a fallacy; and has yet to be answered sufficiently by evolutionists.

                [For this creates an infinite regress: what created that even more complex mind?]

                Now that's a classical fallacy, applying natural laws of our universe to the realm of the supernatural.

                [If, on the other hand, the theist will claim that that most complex mind (i.e. God) was uncreated, then there is no reason why the complex universe or anything else that is complex cannot be uncreated too. Thus there is no logical need for a complex thing to be created by a complex mind.]

                You compare apples and oranges here. A supernatural mind being eternal is feasible. Matter being eternal goes against reason and science as we know it. An intelligent mind creating self-duplicating complexity is feasible. Unintelligent lifeless matter spontaneously doing so goes against reason and science as we know it. I find it odd that unbelievers are so quick to deny the supernatural while at the same time attributing supernatural traits to the material universe. The very arguments used to refute a Supernatural Mind, are ignored to support a supernatural material universe.

                [Natural science as it is practised today, whatever the personal beliefs of scientists themselves, explicitly does not allow a supernatural into its methodology.]

                Not sure what you're getting at here. If you are saying that accepted scientific methodology does not require a supernatural element to make it work, I agree; much like if, having wound up a clock, I accept that it can keep time without my ongoing supervision (as it was designed to do).
                Added to this, there is a growing global scientific community advocating 'scientific methodology' yet opposed to macro-evolution. You can download and read the names for yourself.

                http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

                1. secularist10 profile image91
                  secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh, I've read plenty about creationism, and the pseudoscience behind it. Not interested in getting into that whole discussion here. Maybe another time.

                  I don't understand your quibble with the word "spontaneous." By spontaneous I am referring to something undirected or unguided.

                  "And the complexity we are talking about is far more elaborate than a few atoms banging together or the accidental mixing of chemicals."

                  A few? Try trillions. And the atom is hardly a simple thing. The process of atomic bonding or molecular bonding is similarly not simple. Particularly given the fact that there are molecules that arise in nature with hundreds upon hundreds of atoms in them.

                  Another good example of spontaneous order is the structure of diamonds: a regular, orderly organization of atoms that requires no conscious guidance or direction.

                  But really you need to now give your definition of "complex," because you are dealing with the eye of the beholder.

                  "Now that's a classical fallacy, applying natural laws of our universe to the realm of the supernatural."

                  Here you have committed what is known as the "God of the gaps" fallacy. You or I or anyone else can say anything is possible with God or the supernatural. Unless you can clearly define the parameters and the nature of the supernatural, you have not provided any useful knowledge, you have simply said "God can do it. I don't understand how God does it, but he can." That is the God of the gaps: we can't explain it, therefore "God" (or whatever supernatural placeholder) explains it.

                  "Matter being eternal goes against reason and science as we know it."

                  Nope. Law of conservation of matter actually makes eternal matter more logical. But matter does not have to be eternal in any case. Reality can be eternal, and multiple universes can be created within that eternal reality.

                  "You compare apples and oranges here. A supernatural mind being eternal is feasible."

                  But an eternal space-time is not feasible? Why?

                  "Unintelligent lifeless matter spontaneously doing so goes against reason and science as we know it."

                  Wrong again. Logic and scientific experiments have provided significant validation to the theory of abiogenesis. I can dig up a very informative Youtube video on that if you're interested.

                  Oh, and just because something seems funny or weird or unbelievable is irrelevant. A round earth is a great example of something that goes against common sense, but is nonetheless totally factual.

                  1. parrster profile image87
                    parrsterposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I hear you, but disagree; and don't believe either of us is going to convince the other.

                    [Oh, and just because something seems funny or weird or unbelievable is irrelevant.]

                    Ditto regarding God (couldn't help myself)

      2. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't say 'absence of Christian institutions' but an absence of Christianity -  meaning the culture.
        I am quite happy to hear all sorts of theories on evolution and am not at all bothered by creationalism vs evolution. I don't see how it poses a problem for Christian living.
        You are right that different Christian denominations are often at logger-heads about Biblical interpretation. I would level the blame on putting a book at the centre of ones faith, rather than spiritual graces.

        1. secularist10 profile image91
          secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Ok, so it's culture. Fine, whatever. The fact is, we just don't see an explosion of chaos, depravity and social collapse in countries with little or no Christianity. People still go to work, kids still go to school, the police still keep order, the politicians still serve themselves. Everything is functioning as it should smile

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well, you stick with the wonders of Ikea or Panasonic or Applemac if that's enough for you. I like them too, but I'm not about to let go of my Cathedrals, my dreaming spires, Mozart or Shakespere. I am full of gratitude for the richness, the complexity and spirituality of my Christian culture. Certainly there is neatness and order like a billiards table in perfect secularism, but where is the joy?

            1. secularist10 profile image91
              secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              There's plenty of joy in the secular world. You just have to know where to look. Joy, of course, is very subjective, but there's something for everyone out there.

              I don't know what the heck gives you the idea that secular people are some kind of dour, purposeless, passionless, directionless emotionless drones living out a grey, joyless nihilistic existence. LOL!

              In fact, to the contrary, with the exception of some charismatic preacher personalities, it seems to be the Christians that are forced to restrain their passions and excitement, in service of the next world.

              Go to places like San Francisco, Manhattan, Las Vegas or Los Angeles. You will find all kinds of crazy and wonderful personalities--artists, musicians, actors, comics, drag queens, DJs, innovators, entrepreneurs, models, designers, activists, intellectuals, authors, the list goes on. Very few of these people are devout Christians.

              Anyway, I don't know what Shakespeare or Mozart have to do with Christianity, except that they existed in a time when Christianity happened to be ascendant.

    5. AshtonFirefly profile image82
      AshtonFireflyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think I would refer to our culture as being "Christian"...and was it ever really a Christian culture?

      Those acting in the name of  Christianity have also done terrible things. But I guess your point was, it outweighed them. But do they? hmm

      1. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I would agree that there have been people throughout history doing terrible things in the name of religion. In the same way that America has done terrible things in the name of America. I would still say that both have enough attributes to want to hang onto them.

    6. Philanthropy2012 profile image91
      Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry Lizzie, considering that the most successful countries in terms of both living standards and morality are secular, such a suggestion as yours is as crooked as the bible that you preach smile

      1. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I don't preach the Bible, as you know. I think it's worth recognising the things we have gained from a Christian culture and also the things worth keeping from a Christian culture. Where would you rather live, sweden or Italy?

        1. Philanthropy2012 profile image91
          Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Sweden. Much better country. Much less crime. Stable economy (not collapsed and being bailed out by Germany like Italy). Much less god (only 23% belief in God)...

          That was a nice point for me, thank you Lizzie. Who's side are you on lol

          And we didn't "gain" anything from religion, humans invented the morals found in the scriptures, we "gained" from humans' invention, it's nothing new.

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            It's not about point scoring. Its a matter of opinion I suppose. I'd prefer Italy any day. I prefer an explosion of ideas to sensible shoes and flat-packed ergonomic office furniture.

    7. 0
      Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "It is easy to take for granted the freedoms we enjoy within the legacy of our Christian culture."

      I can't think of any freedoms brought on by Christianity. It isn't like Christianity freed the slaves being that Abraham Lincoln fought the good fight from a secular/Deist ideology. (Don't forget the undermining of human rights I.E. gay community. "God hates fags",right?)

      The past 50years we can see a correlation between the flourishing of human rights/ advancement technology and a secular world. (Americans without affiliation comprise the only religious group growing in all 50 states.)

      Outside of government using Christianity for political coherence, America is secular, being that only 20% attend church regularly.

      "benefits of a Christian culture out- weigh the harms by miles."

      Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Great Britain, Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, ect.. fall within the top 15 of most secular countries in the world. So from your above quote, I ask you, what's going wrong in the most secular countries that they would benefit from Christianity?



      http://s4.hubimg.com/u/6011547_f248.jpg

      1. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        William Wilberforce was a Catholic.
        "God hates fags" is just another example of Americans ruining Christian culture.
        Great Britain has a head of state who is also head of the church. It still has a way to go before being secular, despite a good deal of the population being nonreligious . Have you been to Finland? Have you been to Denmark? Give me the rich cultures of Italy and Spain any day. What makes them great is not their new found atheism, it is their wonderful cultural heritage which lives with them still, thank God.

      2. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Great Britain, Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, ect.. fall within the top 15 of most secular countries in the world"

        Yes, and not one of them enjoys the freedom or economic vitality of the US. As America becomes more secular, we strive to catch up (sarcasm intended) with them, not the other way around. Some day we may aspire to the economy and strict state regulation of Germany, and what a sad day that will be.

        "God hates fags" (I hate repeating that!) grabs the headlines but doesn't actually reflect the true feelings of most Christians.

        Lincoln was not secular nor deist. And it was Christianity that freed the slaves. No secular enlightenment thinker ever came up with the equality of man without first heavily borrowing from the Christian idea of human equality as espoused by Paul.

        1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
          Uninvited Writerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I am in Canada and i am just as free as you are...our economy is also doing better.

          1. 0
            Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            @ Chris Neal



            What freedoms do they not offer?

            Would republicans vote for a candidate if he/she supported equal rights for the 'fag' community? "(sarcasm intended)"  Making it  majority of Christian views on the subject.

            Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              "Would republicans vote for a candidate if he/she supported equal rights for the 'fag' community? "(sarcasm intended)"  Making it  majority of Christian views on the subject."

              It's a mistake to think that I'm arguing a political point of view, and I won't get into that debate. The relative merits of elephant v donkey are a seperate discussion and off-topic here.

              Am I reading you right that you think Paul was endorsing institutionalized slavery? Because that's not true. But I don't want to accuse you of something you haven't done.

              1. 0
                Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                In regards to American, looking at religious influence in politics is a great way to identify mainstream Christian views.

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  As a conservative evangelical Christian, I gotta disagree. It's axiomatic that any mass debate is propelled by the loudest voices, and those voices are on the extremes 99% of the time. What you get from the political pulpit is not necessarily the same as what you would get from the "average" pulpit.

                  Read Unchristian by David Kinnaman. I don't like a lot of it, but it certainly would put the lie to thinking that Newt Gingrich really fully represents mainstream Christian views.

                  1. 0
                    Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I understand the Christian right who pushes political agendas doesn't represent mainstream Christianity. With that said, Christian moderates are  responsible for the 'right'.

                    Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible
                    for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide
                    the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence
                    can never be adequately opposed. - Sam Harris

          2. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Ah, true (sort of.)

            It's true that your currency is worth more than ours, as is the euro and the pound. So I apologize for that, I got ahead of myself.

            Religiously, though, I have heard that your country is not as free as ours.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          lol Not on this planet.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Before I answer you, which part specifically are you laughing about?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The part where you claim Christianity released the slaves. Hilarious. lol

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Not in the least. The overwhelming majority of abolitionists were Christian. Not atheist, not deist, not Muslim, not agnostic.

                So, in a last ditch effort to actually treat you like the adult you refuse to be, give me your sources to contrary. Put up or shut up.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh I see, trial by association. And, of course, you claimed Christianity freed the slaves.

                  That's like saying fermented vegetables were the overwhelming factor in freeing the slaves because everyone drinks beer.

                  lol

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Ah, when you are accused of acting in a childlike fashion, you stick out your tongue and "Nuh-uh! It's childish!"

                    Gotta luv ya! lol lol lol

            2. Seek-n-Find profile image87
              Seek-n-Findposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Hey Chris--just FYI--ATM seems to very much have his mind made up and repeats the same messages of opposition over and over (which is his right to do) so I'm not saying don't engage--I'm just saying don't spend too  much time trying to convince him of something that he's opposed to before you even type your first word.  Not trying to intentionally offend you ATM, but I've watched your posts and you argue, argue, argue and seem to not even really be listening or open to any perspective besides your own--and you tend to be quite unkind in the way that you communicate in most cases. That is why, if you notice, people tend to start ignoring you after a while. If you really want people to take you seriously, try to discuss instead of accusing and be open to information...even if it doesn't fit into your opinion...it really does work better. I know I'm not the first to suggest it.  There's a reason people keep telling you the same thing.  Patterns contain information--hope you'll use it to your own benefit!

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, you were, or you wouldn't have written this post.



                Thank you for taking the time to tell me you aren't happy with my posts or the delivery and how you conveniently ignore your religions hatred and bigotry to others in the process.

                Feel better now? lol

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Trust me, I know better.

    8. MrMaranatha profile image86
      MrMaranathaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Far from disagreeing or abuse... I agree with your premise in this... That Getting rid of any and all religions would still not get rid of the Humans that are  do not liked...  You would just have to find a new thing to hate and turn against...

    9. LewSethics profile image59
      LewSethicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I think religion began as an organizing force in primitive societies, where tribes or clans had to accept a certain amount of order, curtailing their unbound freedom, for the common good.
      Those days are past and education should replace indoctrination.  With the advent of our computerized society parents will be able to monitor what their kids are being taught more closely.  The school system is ridiculous.  Just about the time Suzy begins to understand her math the bell rings, and its time to go try to figure out history or english.  Then, 45 minutes later its the same thing again.  For twelve years. 
      Sorry, getting back to the subject, just as we have laws separating church and state, we should have laws restricting any political activity by those who are supposed to spiritual mentors, of any religion. 
      We don't discuss religion at political rallies, so we shouldn,t have politics in religion.
      If you take the politics out of religion you pull its teeth.
      The only way for that to happen is with free unrestricted education, so that those poor saps that are blowing themselves up in the name of god aren't brainwashed from birth.
      I think it would take time, but society would chip away at those domineering or violent religious motivations that we take for granted today.

      1. LewSethics profile image59
        LewSethicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        then again, maybe not

        1. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with your estimation of the education system. But you can't take politics out of religion nor religion out of politics. It's simply never going to happen.

          BTW - Do you know where "seperation of church and state" actually comes from? Who wrote it? And what he actuall meant when he wrote it?

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            A Baptist minister first put forth the idea of the seperation of church and state that Thomas Jefferson was referring to.

            The church of the Jews under the Old Testament in the type and the church of the Christians under the New Testament in the antitype were both separate from the world; and when they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness. ..The commonweal cannot without a spiritual rape force the consciences of all to one worship.”-Roger Williams

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So you understand that the point was that the government should not run the church?

    10. HattieMattieMae profile image68
      HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Think it would just be better to give people the free will to choose what they want to believe without judging or criticizing others. Perhaps seeing others as different and accepting their differences without trying to mold them into your version of beliefs.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Right!  Because christians don't judge others not thinking like them to be going to hell, do they?  Oh wait....yes they do!  Better rethink that a bit, huh?

    11. Titen-Sxull profile image95
      Titen-Sxullposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Curing cancer won't end all disease, but it's still a good cause. I think the analogy works quite well.

    12. Agnes Penn profile image77
      Agnes Pennposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Are we afraid of faith?  If we are we are giving credence to the existence of God and once we do we must establish a relationship with Him.
      The thread in this post seems to focus not on whether God exists and how to relate with Him (religion), but on fear and who to blame for our fears.  The simplest answer lies in "who will control whom."  In other words, it is not a belief that should be feared, but individuals themselves: hypocrites, liers, manipulators and anyone who will use sincere trust he/she finds in others.
        It is a cop-out to say a religion can claim the free choice of others.  Individuals do this.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...  To say that people are uneducated and can easily be duped is an arrogant attitude.  Ever met a farmer without a PhD, MBA or BS?  And yet, if you had that person's knowledge will probably make more sense than any doctor's or scientist's does. 
      Respect poor people's choices to be of a particular religion even though they may not have your high and mighty education.  And as far as polling...  Look at all the exit polls before an election after the election: they never match.  There are many ways to ask questions to turn one issue into a favorable outcome. 
      So lets cut the crap about attacking Christianity; a religion whose tenets are not based on forced belief, but on free choice.  A choice which, btw, many poor people in countries where It is prohibited are choosing to day for.

    13. hybridamerica profile image60
      hybridamericaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Honestly..  When in History that any religious group has been in power - has it been a good thing?

      Christians like to taut America as having Christian origins.

      Really?  Christians want to OWN slavery and Native American Genocide and land theft, child labor and Robber Barons?

      Please...  A stack of first century manuscripts that expose the fraudulent and completely fabricated origins of Christianity would be a good start at Global enlightenment!

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "Honestly..  When in History that any religious group has been in power - has it been a good thing?" I can't speak for the OT  Jewish theocracy or Muslim theocracies, but when the Catholic church was in temporal power that was not a good thing. Too many people who didn't know Scripture were teaching it to others. In the process they completely ignored what Jesus actually taught. It's very sad.

        "Christians like to taut America as having Christian origins." Well, the early settlers were Christians looking for a space to worship God as they saw fit. It may not have been perfect but it was Christian. And the majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian, many were ministers. The Declaration of Independence ("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,...") is a Christian document. And many of the early separatists were inspired by George Whitfield, a preacher.

        "Really?  Christians want to OWN slavery and Native American Genocide and land theft, child labor and Robber Barons?" Ah, no. Although it's sadly true that many who did these things claimed to be Christian, they weren't. The Bible repudiates slavery (yes, it does.) Most of the colonies abolished it as soon as they had the chance. The robber barons were hardly carrying out the Lord's work, whatever they might have said (and most of them didn't say that.) The early settlers actually bought land as often or more often than they stole it. To say that bad things didn't happen is not what I'm trying to do. They did. But I'm separating the motive from the rhetoric.

        A stack of completely fabricated second century manuscripts passed off as authentic first century papers certainly does lead to Global something, I'll agree with that. But serious historians mostly agree with the authenticity of the Bible (as a first century account of the rise of Christianity.)

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It's hilarious when you "Christians" contradict yourselves openly, but even more so when it involves false statements about history. lol

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            a) I apologize for accusing you of making fun of my wife and child. I'm under a lot of stress.

            b) Don't let that go to your head. You're still just a little kid. When you get something other than sticking that finger up, let me know. We'll talk.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              lol So, even a little kid can laugh at a grown adult who believes in fairy tales.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Well, you certainly never fail to prove me right!

                Yeah, little kids can laugh, but since they're little kids, they don't understand what they're laughing about. You know, because you (yeah, you) lack the sophisticated understanding to hold an adult conversation and probably to even understand what you're talking about.

                At least, that's what you shown in the past...

                That's why I like your predictable, inane little self so much!

                lol lol

  2. Cassie Smith profile image75
    Cassie Smithposted 4 years ago

    I agree lizzie.  The anti-Christians look at Christianity in a one-sided way to make their point.  When Constantine took up Christianity as a state religion it created many enemies.  But I wouldn't worry about it.  Christianity is thriving and spreading outside of Europe.  Europe hasn't been Christian since the turn of the century and it's suffered a lot and experienced a lot of "isms".  Americans have done better but would have done a lot better if we didn't get involved with Europe and their problems.

    1. lizzieBoo profile image78
      lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I agree that Christianity is far stronger as a movement, than any single generation can hope to blot out with cries of "unnecessary".
      I disagree that Europe hasn't been Christian for a hundred years (if thats what you mean). Europe began to loose its faith after the tragedy of WW1, which was further compounded by the time WW2 was over. We still live in very Christian times believe it or not.
      My point is that people may think that we live in un Christian times already, and that it would be only a small step to leave that culture altogether. We do still live in Christian times, but poor Christian lives. We are in danger of loosing something valuable just because we can't recognise its value right now.

      1. Cassie Smith profile image75
        Cassie Smithposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I would say that many Europeans self-identify as Christian but don't really practice it as their churches are empty on Sundays. Your parish could be the exception. This trend had started since the turn of the century.  I have to search for the link.

        For those people who are staunch Christians and practice it and know its value, we continue the good fight.  That's really all that we can do.  I wouldn't let the atheists, agnostics, and anti-Christians fool you into thinking that Christianity will or has disappeared.  It is quite healthy, it is just moving away from places where it used to be, more to the detriment of the population in those places.

        There will always be challenges in whatever era.  I am confident that our faith will see us through it like it has in previous times.

        1. 0
          Muldaniaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          The numbers of Christians in the UK has been growing in recent years, because of mass migration from Christian African countries, and Eastern Europe.  As a result, the Roman Catholic Church is now the largest denomination in the UK, even though the Church of England is still the official church.

          1. mischeviousme profile image60
            mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Alan Watts was from the Catholic priesthood and later became a Buddhist. He found that the philosophy of it was flawed and that thoughts should be free, not constrained to a singular idea. Unfortunately, religion is still poisoning the minds of people, the world over. Eventually Watts gave up on buddhism and moved on to form his own philosophy for himself and then became a sought after teacher of spirituality. If everyone thought for themselve's what religion does would not matter, for the idea would become mundane and of no use to anyone. As it is now, religion is only keeping us from growing wise.

            1. lizzieBoo profile image78
              lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Nonsense. Religion produces great thinkers if it is imparted freely and with intelligence. Ghandi, William Wilberforce, Florence Nightingale, Samuel Jonson to name but a few.

              1. mischeviousme profile image60
                mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                If ever we act the fool, then we would believe that this is all real and not just an illusion of the mind. Instead of being confined in mind, it would seem an imparitive for us to learn or else we would have no brain to begin with.

                1. yolanda yvette profile image60
                  yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Our minds are for more than learning, they are for glorifying God in all ways.  Furthermore, denying the existence of the Creator, in itself, is confinement of the mind and makes for fools.

                  1. mischeviousme profile image60
                    mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    If the mind is trapped in glorifying an aspect of the self, then we are not learning from the world at large, which can become an imparement all it's own.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                lol lol <---- coveted double laughie award

            2. heavenbound5511 profile image81
              heavenbound5511posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Here a cool Buddhist page- it's very interesting! 
              http://desburwell.hubpages.com/hub/Budd … m-The-Dead

    2. 0
      Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Constantine embraced Christianity because of a political agenda.

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        That's false. He made it a political agenda, but he believed in what he was embracing, even if he didn't fully understand it.

  3. 69
    paarsurreyposted 4 years ago

    Ending "Christianity" won't mean no more religion

    The Mythical "Christianity" will be taken over by the true, peaceful and real teachings of Jesus mentioned in Quran; atheism has no chance; they should rest assured.

    1. 60
      WhoBeYouBeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah... lollllllllllll

      1. 0
        Cranfordjsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @ paarsurrey

        Atheism has no chance? But Islam does, right? Let us look at some facts, okay?

        Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Great Britain, Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, ect...make up the top 15 most secular countries..........

        Great prosperous countries that anyone would feel safe visiting or living in, right?

        Now, shall we look at Islamic countries? Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Nigeria, Algeria, and Morocco make up the top ten countries with highest percent of Muslims.

        Do you see the point I'm making? Do you see a correlation between third world countries and Islam? So for you to be "rest assured" that non religious countries have no chance, you should focus more on the "teachings" of the "Quran", teachings that need all of the critiquing it can get, being that it's a case study for humankind's ignorance and suffering.

        A case study that could produce an analogy for Islam being a ball and chain. A ball and chain tightly secured to humankind's ankle, hampering it from the much deserved secular world in which it longs for.

        All in all, yea......

        1. Castlepaloma profile image21
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Been to all of those countries and would prefer to live in the northern happier Countries

  4. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 4 years ago

    Doing away with just Christianity wouldn't solve anything. And anyone who makes the claim knows nothing about "religion" in general.

    1. lizzieBoo profile image78
      lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Or people, to be more precise.

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I know more about people in a general sense than any person I know or interacted with.

        Your OP isn't about people. It IS about Christianity and doing away with it. Which goes back to what I said- "they know nothing about religion".

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Cagsil, should I ever be in your area, I would love to spend time talking with you, over a coffee, beer or juice, however you hang!

          That was a truly amazing statement, it crys out for deeper investigation!

          Peace.

          John

  5. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    You must run with a dense crowd, cowboy. You seem to think very highly of your own OPINION. What she is saying is that getting rid of christianity would solve nothing...you seem to think it would, and your statement  "they know nothing about religion" is unsupported. The actual fact is described as such. A poll was taken and overall, atheists seem to know more about Christianity than Christians do. First point: ALL POLLS ARE FAULTY. Second point, the data which you base your statement on (That poll) was only about Judeo-Christian religion, with an inclusion of Islam, known as the Big Three, but, did not include the numerous other Religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, and on, etc.) Your statement is faulty as presented.

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting statement coming from you.
      Think highly of my own "opinion"? I know what I know.
      And apparently you failed reading class.

    2. Goatus OQueef profile image61
      Goatus OQueefposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "all polls are faulty" - you need to read a little more into surveys and statistical analysis. You could perhaps say that about a census, but this was actually a survey (polls are only one question) conducted on a sufficiently large sample  (3000+) that allows for accurate statistical inference.
      And if you go to the actual research page, you can see that there was indeed questions relating to the other 'world religions', but members of those religions make up such a small percentage of the US population they weren't included in the data as participants.
      It was primarily about 'religious knowledge, not just Christianity (which only Mormons and white evangelicals topped the atheist/agnostics)

      Have a look for yourself:
      http://www.pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-a … urvey.aspx

      1. Castlepaloma profile image21
        Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Jews and atheist/agnostics know more about world Religion than any other group.

        Make enough sense, maybe because they need to protect themselves from attacked from all sides.

        1. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          "Jews and atheist/agnostics know more about world Religion than any other group."

          I would definitely need some hard data on that, because it's just waaaayyy too easy to say and believe without any support. I don't, by the way, believe that.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image21
            Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says
            Report September 28, 2010says nonbelievers know more, on average, about religion than most faithful. Jews and Mormons also score high on the U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey.

            September 28, 2010|By Mitchell Landsberg, Los Angeles Times
            If you want to know about God, you might want to talk to an atheist.
            Heresy? Perhaps. But a survey that measured Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists and agnostics knew more, on average, than followers of most major faiths. In fact, the gaps in knowledge among some of the faithful may give new meaning to the term "blind faith."

            A majority of Protestants, for instance, couldn't identify Martin Luther as the driving force behind the Protestant Reformation, according to the survey, released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Four in 10 Catholics misunderstood the meaning of their church's central ritual, incorrectly saying that the bread and wine used in Holy Communion are intended to merely symbolize the body and blood of Christ, not actually become them.
            Atheists and agnostics — those who believe there is no God or who aren't sure — were more likely to answer the survey's questions correctly. Jews and Mormons ranked just below them in the survey's measurement of religious knowledge — so close as to be statistically tied.
            So why would an atheist know more about religion than a Christian?

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Good question. Of course, that doesn't mean that every atheist knows more about religion than every Christian (I haven't read the actual article, but I did know the answers to all those questions.)
              I would say that atheists do as a whole tend to pride themselves on their intellectual knowledge more than most other groups.
              Christians is a broad term, too. That's not a cop-out. As a person who takes his faith seriously, I marvel at the number of people who don't do that.
              And frankly, the arguments I get into with atheists aren't about the finer points of religion. They're about whether God even exists at all, if Jesus is God (by the way, was He blond and blue-eyed?) and about a misunderstanding of some of the more obscure points of history in general.
              If only atheist "knowing more" about religion actually meant they knew God, I would be happy.

              1. Castlepaloma profile image21
                Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It's more about defending themselves from Religious people's attacks.

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yeah, I get that a lot of atheists see it that way. And remember, I used to be an agnostic, so I do get it.
                  But pointing out that people need Jesus is not an attack. And knowing that Martin Luther is the founder of Protestentism isn't really a defense against religious people.
                  A lot of religious people are more concerned with their day-to-day, experiential religion than they are with the intellectual knowledge or history of their religion. Too bad, really, because as a history buff and "armchair theologian" I find that a knowledge of history is a tremendous benefit. Knowing where we've come from helps avoid repetition of a lot of the mistakes that our fathers made.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image21
                    Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    reflect the pass, don't live in the pass and regret it all over again.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, it is. So, you never described Jesus yet, when will you be doing that?

  6. 0
    Muldaniaposted 4 years ago

    Ending Christianity will not mean the end of religion.  Even ending all current world religions will only mean new ones will be created to fill the space.  Christianity is itself a replacement for former pagan religions, which no doubt were replacements for even older, now forgotten religious beliefs.  And the loss of formal religion in much of the West has lead to people accepting anything, whether it be the power of crystals or the need to have a dream-catcher above their beds to stop their dreams from escaping.  People in the West are more likely now to describe themselves as "spiritual" rather than religious, which usually means they adopt beliefs from many different cultures and times, and tie them up with descriptions such as New Ageism.

    1. lizzieBoo profile image78
      lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I quite agree.

    2. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      As do I.

  7. yolanda yvette profile image60
    yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago

    Who can end Christianity?  And how?

    1. WD Curry 111 profile image60
      WD Curry 111posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The Lord comes back.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Your children's children's children will end Christianity as they become educated about the world around them.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image21
        Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Our children will shrink Christianity, thank god.

        1. yolanda yvette profile image60
          yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Good luck with that.  LOL!

      2. lizzieBoo profile image78
        lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Your children's children, not mine.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image21
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Mark my words

          1. lizzieBoo profile image78
            lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            hmm

            1. Castlepaloma profile image21
              Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              It will be replace by the spiritual age,

              1. lizzieBoo profile image78
                lizzieBooposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                New age you mean.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image21
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  A mix

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Oh yes, yours too. I know that sounds impossible, but there you have it. Your religion is toast in about 300 years. smile

          1. Castlepaloma profile image21
            Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            based on what?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Statistical trends, of course.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Statistical trends point that religion in general, and Christianity specifically, are not "toast" at all, but are actually growing.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Growing now, but the growth will soon stagnate and fall over the next couple decades.

                  Christianity "grows" because of babies being born and getting brainwashed, conversions to Christianity are nowhere near as much representing a small percentage of growth, and this percentage has dropped dramatically even over that past decade and continues to plummet.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You've said that before but it shows only that you read the statistics for the west (you don't understand them, but you read them.) "Brainwashing" is not only an irrelevant statement but downright untrue because most of those "brainwashed" kids leave the church. Read the actual statistics. And yes, I expect you to say something about kids can't wait to get to the "real world" or some such thing. Whatever. My point is that Christianity is growing fastest in places where the "brainwashing" would be in exactly the opposite direction, and being a Christian can literally cost you everything. That's not a plummeting.

    3. 69
      paarsurreyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ended Christianity by proving that Jesus did not die on the Cross; this is the back bone of Christianity which has been proved wrong by his brilliant arguments.

      1. pisean282311 profile image57
        pisean282311posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        @paar thats ok....all present day religion would end and replaced by other religions as it has happened in past...chill man....

    4. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Excellent question. The fact is that (and I'm old enough to remember this first-hand) at one time it seemed that Christianity specifically and religion in general was on its way out in the west. That was the late 60's, early 70's when the "cultural revolution" inlcluded the study of Enlightenment thinking as well as the early strains of multi-culturalism by embracing communism as a viable political alternative, as well of course as the rise of the "sexual revolution" which were aimed at shocking the old people. Christianity seemed on its way out, until Jimmy Carter became president. Although you couldn't exactly call President Carter an evangelical, he did proclaim himself "born-again" and suddenly people were interested. Then the rise of the religious right in the 80's. Then the rise of "seeker sensitive" churches in the 21st century.
      In other words, every time people start to think that "education" will eradicate religion, they are proven wrong. It always comes back in one form or another. I am a Christian, but I'm not talking about Christianity per se. New Age spiritualism, Eastern style mysticism, Kabala, even Islam to some extent, have all risen to fill voids felt by people that cannot be answered "education." And the intellectuals, unable to understand it, decide that it is all because of "indoctrination" or "upbringing" or other such things. But it's not.

  8. 69
    paarsurreyposted 4 years ago

    End Times is the end of Christianity.

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ended Christianity by proving that Jesus did not die on the Cross; this is the back bone of Christianity which has been proved wrong by his brilliant arguments.

    1. 60
      WhoBeYouBeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      You are full of Islamic propaganda.

      Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, an Indian who claimed to be a prophet, a
      messiah and a spiritual reappearance of Jesus in 1908, was a retard.

      Islam is a barbaric and misogynistic confabulation of arab BS and hatred.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image21
        Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Have you ever toured the Middle East?

    2. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      How, exactly, did he do that when Jesus sits at the right hand of God this very day?

      1. Castlepaloma profile image21
        Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Allah and Jesus never met neither.

        1. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Very, very true.

    3. yolanda yvette profile image60
      yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        So Christianity no longer exists?  LOL!!

  9. Kyle Payne profile image60
    Kyle Payneposted 4 years ago

    That is by no means true, religion is rapidly growing and has been for thousands of years. Removing some religion will not rid the world and man of its need for God.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image21
      Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Where in the anicent spirit world?

      1. 0
        Muldaniaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I wonder how long existence in the spirit world is supposed to last, because it is impossible to imagine eternity.  If heaven exists, then our ancestors, who lived a million years ago, would surely still be up there, sitting on a cloud, or whatever it is they do in heaven.  Even in paradise, would we get bored if we had to be there forever?

        1. mischeviousme profile image60
          mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I would think that eternity would inspire suicide.

          1. Kyle Payne profile image60
            Kyle Payneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Eternity has many qualities. One of the many qualities it has is that it's participants do not have the realization of the restraint of time. The participant would not realize time, only that it was beyond time in eternity.

            1. mischeviousme profile image60
              mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              To be perpetualy blissful would most definitely lead to the want to escape it. It would eventually become painful, nobody can smile forever or laugh forever, theyed eventualy go insane and insanity is a form of suffering or at least it can be.

              1. Kyle Payne profile image60
                Kyle Payneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Who's said you smile and laugh forever? Happiness is a perspective.

                1. mischeviousme profile image60
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  The Christian idea of heaven is eternal bliss. I believe it is heaven to be alive, whether I suffer or not. So then, what I believe becomes of no import because I am here and I am happy for it.

                  1. yolanda yvette profile image60
                    yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                      But we all have an eternity, whether we believe it/think about it or not.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "The Christian idea of heaven is eternal bliss"

                    That's not true. Heaven is eternal joy, but that's different. We will be in the presence of God forever, and His Spirit will be with us always. Although we've been given some picture of it, it's really unimaginable as to what it will really be like.
                    Equating it with bliss is a very human, and very un-Christian, idea.

          2. yolanda yvette profile image60
            yolanda yvetteposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Not when there's hope of spending it in the right place.

  10. LewSethics profile image59
    LewSethicsposted 4 years ago

    I'm a bit hazy on it but my first guess would be the Magna Carta, the reason there has never been another King John in English history.

  11. 69
    paarsurreyposted 4 years ago

    @Chris Neal:

    Jesus is the most precious person we will ever know.


    How do you know?

    1. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Because I've met Him.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        lol So, what does he look like? Describe him in detail.

  12. phillippeengel profile image72
    phillippeengelposted 4 years ago

    We humans love to attribute the myriad wonders and mysteries of the world to deities and there will be religions. Christianity is only one faith, there are many more other religions for the other faiths.

    1. mischeviousme profile image60
      mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Though some are not religions or faiths and are only construde as such. Some are simply ways of living, in a chaotic world.

    2. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      That is true. But Christianity is the only that can truly set you free!

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yet, all we observe is slavery to irrational beliefs. Thinking for oneself is setting oneself free and not being a puppet to slave master.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image21
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Satan OR Yahweh

          I can't handle that much freedom

      2. mischeviousme profile image60
        mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        And you're absolutely sure of this? Can you back that up without scripture? I'm free and Christianity had nothing to do with it. Is it realy that real to you? Wow! You mean Christianity the only religion that could have saved me this whole time? How did I miss that?

        1. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Read the Bible and you'll see how you missed it.

          I missed it for 21 years. I thought I was free without Christianity. But only Jesus can set you free.

          1. mischeviousme profile image60
            mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You are on a path and I am on a path. Mine leads to the heights of consciousness, yours to the heights of heaven. Mine is a path inward, yours is a path outward. My heaven is the universe, yours is somewhere else.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            lol Yes, free from thinking, free from facts, free from reality...

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Well, at least you finally admit your own state!

              I knew you'd do it eventually!  lol lol

  13. RJ68 profile image61
    RJ68posted 4 years ago

    You can accept to believe in anything or you can choose to believe in GOD.  I prefer the latter.  A great point actually..there will always be doctrinations of belief that people label religion but does that mean its the truth.  It does not...however, it is no debatable point with me because I know in my heart that God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit exists.  Nothing taught to me..but I believe.

  14. rtcomics profile image60
    rtcomicsposted 4 years ago

    @Castlepaloma

    By what means do you decide what truths to believe in? Picking and choosing your morality like that is akin to picking and choosing what traffic laws you will abide by. Aside from the fact that the Bible is the the Word of God (if you choose to believe it or not), it sets the standard upon which Christians live their lives. It is the standard upon which nations were formed. Without it, what do you have? A fluctuating system of morality based on societies whims.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image21
      Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I have more faith and optimistism in our human race and nature than any be all or end group. For Spirirtual is the 99% unknown world and Universe , who am I to said there is only way to a God, why not everyone and every thing is god. More kindness is much more needed in our over ego world than more Religion

      1. rtcomics profile image60
        rtcomicsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "why not everyone and every thing is god. "
        I hope this is not the case, because I can find several examples of people that I wouldn't want to see as God. Ted Bundy, Hitler, Osama Bin Laden to name just a few.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image21
          Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          They would only be our equals,  not our leaders of our ultimate lives

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            So you subscribe to some sort of pantheism?

            1. Castlepaloma profile image21
              Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Do not belong to a group, yet share with all groups

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's not an answer.
                Pantheism is a philosophy, not a group.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image21
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  To belong to any one group, and try to protect it's morals would not work for me, I prefer ethics and unlimited thinking

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I understand. If you belong to no one and take from everyone, then if anyone gets hurt it doesn't matter because their limited thinking is only attempting to hold you back. Meanwhile, in your quest to better yourself and make of yourself whatever you consider to be your best self, you never have to do the actual adult work of examining not only your own ethics but any one set of ethics whole hog because you really only take what works for you and sounds good.
                    Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "why not everyone and every thing is god."

                    Meanwhile, the question of whether this panentheistic statement means you actually believe in anything like pantheism goes unanswered.

                  3. georgethegent profile image59
                    georgethegentposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Everyone should be entitled to unlimited thinking but the moment belief in a god appears you are controlled and your unlimited thinking becomes damnation, which is so wrong. A god is just a control mechanism, put out so that you will do as you're told!!!

  15. Mark Pitts profile image61
    Mark Pittsposted 4 years ago

    So many want to heap abuse on those who don't believe the same things they do. I am so surprised at how many who strongly state their lack of a belief in God spend so much energy railing against something they profess does not exist. Will they next attack unicorns? Evil has been done in the name of religion by humans, not by God. When humans committed evil it is always about resources (food, water, power, oil, etc.). This is true going all the way back to neolithic hunter-gatherer's. But if an attack on another is dressed up with a claimed edict from God, it makes it easier to live with. But the claim doesn't make God evil, just the ones who used Him as a cloak for their misdeeds. An over-zealous dedication to hate, even if it the hate of an atheist for a believer, is still evil.

 
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