All religions are different in some ways ,but there's one characteristic that makes mormonism unique and that is the fact that you are introduced to the religion in a very gradual way it's almost like concentric circles and it literally takes years until they feel you're prepared to go from one circle of knowledge to the next.Almost like a secret society in a way.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey!!
Sorry I couldn't resist. No bad intended.
And then after years of preparation, I could be made completely brainwashed...enough to believe I possess magic underwear.
There's a term for that, it's called brainwashing.
Yes. We are terribly, terribly brainwashed.
We also sacrifice goats on Tuesday, and until recently, small children. Unfortunately, we were threatened with arrest, so we're just back to goats now.
Also, if you'd like to come, bring The Princess Bride. Mormons love The Princess Bride.
I don't though, which means the brainwashing may not quite have worked there...
Where would you get the notion brainwashing has anything to do with sacrificing goats and small children?
Brainwashing is nothing more than the acceptance of ideals without question or thought.
Oh dear.... I was joking. I always see you being so serious and grumpy. All work and no play....
<--- me being grumpy
Yes, I know you were joking and I know you don't believe you were brainwashed.
I have no idea what your face looks like at any given moment, so I take your words as a reflection of your demeanor. It's not unreasonable.
Also, I don't believe I'm brainwashed because I don't fit your definition of brainwashed. I ask questions all the time as I've already told you, and I don't think I've ever accepted anything in my life without questioning it. Not even gravity. But on reflection, I don't think testing it was the wisest thing I've ever done.
So, you don't grant me the same reasonable reflection of you?
Okay, what questions do you ask about your religion and what answers do you get?
I'm eighteen, have mercy on me-- I have no idea what you're asking in that first question.
I ask the basic questions "Is this true? Is any of this true? Is God even real?" Mostly I just get the same response "You have to figure it out for yourself." So that is what I'm currently doing. Figuring it out. And annoying people with my myriad questions.
You said you can't see my face and are responding based on my words. Should I not also have the same consideration? Age is irrelevant on a public forum.
Fair enough. But, what about the questions of Joseph Smith and his claims about the origins of Indians or the fact that he was found guilty and convicted of being a con-artist, an imposter and charlatan just a few years before coming up with Mormonism?
I was never aware of Smith being convicted of anything, to be honest. Can I get a reference or a link, please?
The charges were placed in 1826 to the State of New York, a warrant was issued by Peter G. Bridgeman whereupon Smith was brought before the court on March 20 of that year.
The copies of the court records were published by Jerald and Sandra Tanner who were instrumental in researching Mormon history.
Sorry, I couldn't find the actual court documents.
That's fine. That should be enough for me to dig for it. I know he was arrested several times, but I've never had enough keywords to look for court records.
I'm curious. Hope I can find some sort of record.
Joseph Smith was charged with a lot of things, but 1826 is after the events he claimed started things.
There was also an extermination order signed by the governor of one of the states... that doesn't make the law right.
1820 was his claim of the first vision, and the beginning of restoring the church.
Didn't Smith found the church in 1830, four years after his conviction?
That was when the church was officially founded, but not when the process of restoration began. That was in 1820, and 1820 is when the persecutions began.
"Fair enough. But, what about the questions of Joseph Smith and his claims about the origins of Indians or the fact that he was found guilty and convicted of being a con-artist, an imposter and charlatan just a few years before coming up with Mormonism?" <- That was you
Joseph Smith 'came up with Mormonism' in 1820... you seem to think that it started in 1830, but that's not true.
Thank you-- that's helpful, but I'm not sure to what extent. I'm a bit confused as to what the "Glass Looker" bit beneath his name means- and what the result of the trial was, etc. Wonder how hard it'll be to find anything more.
"Glass Looker" was a term used for con men and shysters who pretended to look through pieces of glass (or in the case of Joseph Smith, a special stone) to find buried treasures - these men were quite common back in those days and Smith was one of them.
Since there was very little communication back then, he could easily have been escorted out of one county into another and no one there would know anything about his convictions.
What claim specifically are you talking about? Are you talking about the message of the BoM in general, that people came from Bible lands to the Americas?
Joseph Smith taught that Native Americans were actually descendants of Jews who had traveled to the Americas in three migrations; the first at the time of the Tower of Babel, the last two, approximately 600 BC.
Did he actually teach that or are you just referring to the Book of Mormon?
The BoM does claim that Jews came to America, but not that Native Americans are necessarily their descendants. In fact, there is much suggestion in the BoM that there were many other people, more numerous, that were already there.
Mormons have a silly method of trying to brainwash people then.
Step 1 - Listen to the message
Step 2 - Read the Book of Mormon
Step 3 - Think about it and ask questions
Step 4 - Pray about it
Where in there is anything related to accepting without question or thought?
That doesn't fit with the idea of accepting something without thinking about it. Are you suggesting people would logically and intellectually not think something is right, but accept it anyway because they prayed to a God that doesn't exist?
But what could you possibly be thinking? Real thinking requires critical analysis-something surely lacking in people primed for brainwashing.
You have figured it out.
Circular logic. You say Mormons are brainwashed because they don't think for themselves, and they don't think for themselves because they are primed for brainwashing.
Analysis of history, archaeology, and teachings of the Bible to start with.
Too bad, that's not how it works. You seem to have some idea of what happens when people become Mormons that doesn't fit with what I have seen.
I have spoken to mormons about what I see as fallacies recently, and they themselves could not answer many of my questions. They did offer me to "pray to God for the answer", though I have received nothing as of yet. It may be the backlog of christmas prayers or something, I guess I'll have to wait.
On the plus side they seemed like nice people, It's a shame they weren't doing something useful with their lives though, we need more of those people. Useful nice people.
Where would you get the notion there is a step 3 in religious indoctrination.
See step one. It's so obviously a con. Search for something with the knowledge that you have failed if you have not found it.
The Loch Ness monster is not given enough credit for exactly how susceptible the human mind is to expectation. Almost everyone that visits Loch Ness seems to come back with photo's of it's evidence. All different evidence of course. It's truly magical.
I fear you will never get even close to Kolob unless you change your ways.
Not even sacrificing children any more! For shame! You definitely need a refresher in the brainwashing class.
I know. I need to humbly submit, get married and live in peace with my husband's six other wives. Maybe that will save me!
Oh hooray! My order of Cult Garb came in. Mormons are a cult, you know. We decided to stop spending millions and millions of dollars as a church toward humanitarian service, and instead bought each Mormon a nice set of cult clothes. We're going to seal ourselves into a cave below ground soon and not emerge until Dec 21, 2012.
Haha. Going to camp out in the Mormon vault under the mountains between Salt Lake and Park City... I think that's where Mormons are hiding the Golden Plates too.
Yep, that about sums it up. We are demonic, brainwashed people with no sense of right or wrong. Forget educations and thinking for ourselves. Forget BYU and all that nonsense!
Hmm. My hood's a little bit big.
No one here is. I've heard it before though.
The mother of my childhood best friend swore up and down at a school function in front of everyone else that I was a heathen child and that I was most certainly not dragging her daughter down with me. She then stormed out of the cafeteria. I think at some point she may have shrieked over her shoulder that I had the devil in me.
Needless to say, it was quite the friendship-ender.
You must be a terrible person indeed.
There is hope, though! While remodeling a Mormon church I once had one of the members stop by to watch the steeple go up: he asked if I was saved and when I replied "No" he told me "Not to worry - I was a heathen once too".
When I got over the implied insult I have to laugh - it actually was comical and he meant no harm.
Go right ahead and evade the real issue with flippant nonsense. The fact of the matter is that these beliefs are absurd...just be honest.
Education does not exempt one from brainwashing. This is apparent.
Which proves that religious beliefs are based on willful ignorance.
I've heard this all before.... Don't you guys have anything new?
You're not going to change anyone's minds... you know that, right?
It's like abortion. People are pretty stuck in their opinions on it, and you can argue all you want, but precious few will change.
So, you aren't really looking for answers, then?
Apparently, stubborn, willful ignorance protects your delusion.
I know the firm grip that delusion hold over its victims.
Yes, I know, even after your nonsensical beliefs have been debunked over and over and over, believers insist on remaining firming ensconced in their psychotic childhood fairytales.
Psychology is frightening!
You've heard it all before because there's been no answer. That kind of argument is what a pyramid schemer would have given.
What beliefs are absurd?
Do you believe in the OT and NT?
Let's talk about it
Nobody really wants to 'talk' about anything. People just want to spout their own ideas and beliefs and claim that this or that is right.
This type of arguing is annoying. I need to stop coming to the religious threads. I have a lab notebook to finish.
You don't like the princess bride? Back to the reeducation camps!
Repeat after me;
Anybody want a peanut?
I'm sorry, churchofjesuschristofthelatterdaysaintsiism
A man named John Smith said he discovered some gold tablets that told him that native americans are the lost tribes of israel, and that John Smith is the new prophet of the lord, etc.
Found this too...
"Walters's second find was a bill by the local constable, Philip DeZeng, dated 1826, which indicates that not only was a warrant issued for Joseph Smith's arrest but also a mittimus, which Walters believes must have been issued after the trial ordering the sheriff to escort Joseph out of the county. Walters contends that the mittimus thus proves that Joseph Smith was found guilty."
So I had to look up what mittimus meant-- google says it's a "Law or warrant of commitment to prison or a command to a jailer directing him to hold someone in prison."
Why would he be simply escorted out the county instead of jailed? Jailing him would have been a lot easier. Sounds like he wasn't found guilty, but I know nothing of the history or laws during that time period, so that's pure conjecture.
That's interesting, thank you. Walter's is the one who researches this stuff right? Can I have the link?
If you had noticed, the paper indicated "Misdemeanor" which did not warrant jail time.
Actually, it was the Tanners who spent the good part of 50 years researching Joseph Smith. Of course, leaders of the LDS outright denied everything they produced.
Isn't it amazing that nobody picked up the fact that Romney being a mormon is forbidden from betting, and his ten thousand dollar bet offer to perry is one of his most highlated moments of his campaign?
I think it's just gambling, like lottery cards and slots and stuff, not necessarily betting. I could be wrong- it's generally the same principle. Betting happens, but I'm sure it's frowned upon. Just because Mormons aren't supposed to do it doesn't mean they'll follow it. It's sad, but I know plenty of Mormons who do drugs and drink, despite knowing they aren't supposed to.
it is also claimed that the angel moroni came from a distant planet
Back to the OP,
Is that the only thing that makes mormonism different from other religions?
If an outsider looks at any religion it's going to look bizarre.
Especially when the onlooker doesn't look below the ritual level with prejudice.
The presumed inferiority of all other forms of worship to one's own has provoked and continues to provoke wars.
How crazy is that!?
I would think the main thing that makes the Mormons different is the magic underwear.
Not to sound flippant, but I've never understood these odd sects that originated in America. There is always a charismatic guy who starts the sect, claims supernatural knowledge or visions and builds a following. Each one of these founders are subsequently proven to be frauds, but the sect lumbers on; completely ignoring the fact that the founder lied repeatedly.
I just don't get it.
It's not 'magic underwear', and calling that is just a method of boosting your statement by making the topic seem more ridiculous than it really is... appeal to ridicule.
It's a temple garment, and why is that any more ridiculous than the priestly garments of the Bible?
'Proven' to be a fraud is subject to debate in this case.
Proven to be a fraud. Well, he did lie about translating the egyptian hieroglyphics. What is it the Bible says? Isn't that the test of a prophet? If he lies, he isn't a prophet of God.
Don't take it to heart. He wasn't the first, or the last, to attempt to convince people he had a special line on God.
And, yes. The magic underwear is different from priestly garments. Imo. But, I can see we disagree.
No he didn't. You're talking about a few damaged papyrii which were only a part of a larger collection, and they weren't the ones which were claimed to be translated into the book of Abraham.
It's not magic underwear. You are either purposefully trying to make it something it isn't or you are simply ignorant. It's a temple garment, or the garment of the priesthood. How is that different than priestly garments?
Well, your assessment of the debacle with the papyri is at odds with published facts. But, it is certainly acceptable to believe what you like.
As to the underwear, I call them magic because that is what they were called when I first heard of them. That's what the Mormon kids called them. Their parents had gone to Utah to get their underwear blessed and the kids were staying over while the parents were away. It was a fascinating evening, listening to the tale.
Where are you getting your published facts? Just because you read something on the internet doesn't make it true.
The facsimiles are in the Pearl of Great Price, but they aren't the pictures Joseph translated the Book of Abraham from. Really, do some reading on it.
So, you not only hold on to a childish understanding of what they are, but you assert that same childish understanding as some kind of fact?
Here, I'll do you a favor.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraha … ith_Papyri
Joseph Smith had a lot more papyri than we have today, and it is ludicrous to say that the facsimiles in the pearl of great price are what it was translated from. The PoGP itself shows them as depicting other subjects.
I don't have a problem with you believing what you want. I find it a curiosity. I couldn't do it, but there is freedom of religion here.
I do find it odd, considering your obvious belief, that you would attempt to call me childish. Kind of like the pot wishing everyone else was a black kettle. So it would feel like it fit in.
It's not about my beliefs, it's just something I happen to know about. I don't like to see people misrepresenting the beliefs of others.
I'm saying, you accepted the childish understanding of a concept, apparently haven't bothered to figure out what the concept really is, and you pass on that same childish understanding. You admitted to it... 'it's what some Mormon children said'.
I can see the light of reality has hit a nerve. I am sorry that my assessment of the underwear has caused you strife. But, let's be honest. It isn't a misrepresentation. It is simply not giving an odd practice the respect you, personally, have decided it deserves. It is worn to provide protection from the evils of the world. Kind of like a talisman. A talisman is magical. Is it not?
Yes, when someone admits that they don't really know something, but passes it off as fact, it strikes a nerve. It doesn't have to do with my beliefs, I would be upset if you misrepresented any other beliefs I knew about. You talk about respect, but you're not respecting Mormons with your assertions about their beliefs.
The garments are a representation of covenants made with God. Again, you simply show ignorance, and along with your unwillingness to even care that you are misrepresenting LDS beliefs, you show disrespect. They aren't worn as a magical, protective underwear.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. I haven't passed myself off as a Mormon. I know how these sects work. It's like the OP said. They take their time reeling you in. You have to study their literature a lot because the underwear is ridiculous, when viewed objectively. It is only one of many things that are unsupportable by any other than LDS 'facts'.
I had a cult attempt to reel me in once. I played along, just to hear their full belief structure. I'm insanely curious about most religions. These types of organizations don't share bizarro point B, until they have laid the foundation for bizarro point A. And so it goes. Slowly working until all the spiritual insanity somehow makes sense.
So, you've bought into it. It's legal, and your right to speak in defense of it. I reserve the right not to buy in and to express why. That's legal also. No need for you to get bent out of shape about it.
When you call it 'magic underwear' when that's not what it is, you are misrepresenting it
And again, priesthood garments aren't that ridiculous when you consider that they existed in the Bible.
Mormon garments have been claimed to be more than just that of priesthood garments, they have been claimed to protect from evil and in many cases, claimed to protect from car accidents, fires and other natural disasters, hence they are derided as 'magic underwear'.
I would argue mormonism isn't your everyday run of the mill cult, i think it is as they call it , a church,and much larger and powerful than people imagine.
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