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Religion and intelligence, not a good mix

  1. mischeviousme profile image61
    mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago

    If you are a member of a religious group, you'll find that they frown upon thinking for yourself. If you ask any questions, that would appear to go against the doctrine, you might as well have insulted the entire religion.

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      JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This is a generalized, all-inclusive statement about all religions, and it just isn't true.

      Ever heard of Unitarian Universalism?

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Nope.  What's that?

        1. Pcunix profile image90
          Pcunixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          A *very* strange place.. smile

          I see YRUU is gone?  At least officially?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            A very strange place indeed.  Filled with intelligent people who spend their lives thinking for ourselves and asking questions that go against established doctrine.  Funny, no one ever seems all that insulted.  Maybe I'm wrong though, you know since I am obviously of low intelligence and certainly prone to being led like a blind sheep.

            The YRUU never really worked with the structure of the fellowship anyway.  It was a bit too close to traditional indoctrination and occasionally bordered on a soft-sell attempt at conversion.  As both things are repugnant to UUs, the youth groups have tended to reform independently within the separate fellowships and are more along the lines of community groups now.  As for my fellowship, we have even done away with the youth services (babysitting is provided, but completely secular).  My particular group REALLY dislikes anything approaching indoctrination.

            1. Pcunix profile image90
              Pcunixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah, YRUU was a bit of an eyebrow raiser.

              As to the UU's in general, if the wife and I weren't such nasty old sticks, we could join.  But you know we'd be making faces at people smile

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No you wouldn't smile You'd be arguing with the rest of us. 

                After a couple hours of argument on Sunday, y'all would have some lunch (usually someone's attempt at a new "cultural" dish).  After that we all form a mob and find some poor oppressed soul(s) to feed, clothe and shelter... sometimes largely against their will wink

                1. Pcunix profile image90
                  Pcunixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Seriously, you know why?  I mean aside from the fact that we are too lazy to drive ten minutes to get there?

                  We really do have idjits here who say things like "You aren't really an atheist because I heard you say 'omigod' and I know you put up Xmas lights".  I smile vacantly because the only other alternative is physical violence.

                  Imagine what they'd be saying if they saw us walking into a church - they are not smart enough to understand the UU, it would fry their blessed little brains.  I can't do that to the poor things.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    LMAO, I wasn't trying to covert ya hon.  UUs confuse a lot of people and the "you aren't what you say you are" crowd exists everywhere.  Those who confuse easily will always try to pigeon-hole according to their own definitions.  Physical violence doesn't really help... contrary to the conventional wisdom of folks around here you can't "beat sense" into somebody.

                    It is fun to play with them though... especially when one is feeling particularly passive-aggressive.

                2. Pcunix profile image90
                  Pcunixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Wait.. free lunch?

                  We may have to reconsider..

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              Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              My aunt is an UU.  I like the UU and the way they think. I really like their Social Justice work. I've been to a couple of their services with my aunt.  They have this saying, 'Agree to disagree."  My aunt uses that phrase a lot. 

              The only reason I was pulled into become a member is I just didn't feel comfortable worshiping with a Christian denomination that only saw Jesus as a prophet and not the actual son of God.  I don't mind that they don't believe that so much.  Everyone has a right to believe what they believe, but my belief just has me worshiping with others.

              Plus I had the pull to Catholicism since I was 11 or 12.  I was lucky to find a more modern Parish and modern priest with more Evolve thoughts

              I found out recently that up to a couple generations ago my father's family line was Catholic so I often wonder if something in my DNA remembers that and was calling back to it. 

              An UU member would say, "Hmm that's an interesting thought.  You never know."  I like that about them.  They know there is so much about the Universe we can never explain.

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                Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                **I meant to say "The only reason I was not pulled in" instead of  "The only reason I was pulled in."  I apologize for the confusion

      2. IntimatEvolution profile image81
        IntimatEvolutionposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Extremely well put!!!  Smartest comment in this thread.wink

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      ****************
      Is that a fact?

      Though you may say you are not of a religion, you believe like many others so really you are.

      The things I believe which are many is no other groups doctrine

      I'm not Christian but I believe in God.

      I am just as or more Intelligent than you.

      If you are not with me, I don't care. That's your business

      1. mischeviousme profile image61
        mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I have no religion to claim and intelligence has nothing to do with any choice any of us make. I could be just as smart as Hawking and that level of intelligence would have nothing to do with my decisions concerning spiritual matters.

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @mischeviousme, I question your notion that intelligence has nothing to do with any choice.

          So, we could be as intelligent as Einstein and unintelligently decide to stay in Nazi Germany as a Jew? Wow! Not very logical.

          Or a more immediate example, you used a smidgen of intelligence in deciding what to write. Right? Or did it all spill out blindly from your fingertips? If that's the case, then I want a refund on my college degree!

          Intelligence has a great deal to do with decisions, including choice of religion and form of worship.

      2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
        Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Deborah, by the given description, you imply that you are faithful, or a believer. Not religious.

        1. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @Phil, it depends on your definition of religion.

          a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

          b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

          I see you're a type-b definition person. @Deborah may be a type-a definition person.

          -------
          Reference:
          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/religion

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            Deborah Sextonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            ************************

            Of these definitions..I am A type

          2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
            Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I used the word religious.

            re·li·gious
            adjective /riˈlijəs/ 

            Believing in and worshiping a superhuman controlling power or powers, esp. a personal God or gods
            - both men were deeply religious, intelligent, and moralistic

            (of a belief or practice) Forming part of someone's thought about or worship of a divine being
            - he has strong religious convictions

            Of or relating to the worship of or a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings
            - religious music

            Belonging or relating to a monastic order or other group of people who are united by their practice of religion
            - religious houses were built on ancient pagan sites

            Treated or regarded with a devotion and scrupulousness appropriate to worship
            - I have a religious aversion to reading manuals

            Merely believing in a God does not make you religious. That God must have some form of power over our lives for you to be religious. That's the importance of the word 'given'.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          **************************

          I believe in the God of Israel, but I believe in many things. Some of the things I believe is not accepted by any religion.

          So I am of no particular group.

    3. Insane Mundane profile image61
      Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Names,Titles, and Organizations (whether it be religion or governments) often screw everything up, regardless of intelligence or the sentiment involved, due to the permeation of a stagnant power that doesn't resemble the freedom of humanity, as a whole.  Welcome to the chaotic infinity at hand, and if you can find peace within the madness, congratulations, as that's about as good as it gets on this current 3-dimensional plane of reality; cheers!

      1. mischeviousme profile image61
        mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What about the 4th dimension of time? We have no choice to be 4 dimensional creatures, we are at the mercy of time.

        1. Insane Mundane profile image61
          Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You remind me of a semi-popular blog post that I wrote a couple years ago, on one of my many random blogs, here:  http://perpendicularity.org/blog/2010/0 … universes/

          So, uh, what about it?

          1. mischeviousme profile image61
            mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            St. Augustus of Hippo once remarked on time. He said "I know what time is, but when you ask me, I have no words".

            1. Insane Mundane profile image61
              Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So, uh, what you're saying is that you can't define nor understand the concept of time?  That sucks for y'all (you and your chosen philospher), especially since you have just got done saying how we are all "4 dimensional creatures."  yikes

              1. mischeviousme profile image61
                mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                We're trapped in time. Do you not glance at your watch from time to time? We see the effects of time, but that truly is the only way to measure it, just like the other three dimensions, you can't touch up, left right or down. They are only conceptualizations of position and placement.

                1. Insane Mundane profile image61
                  Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Are you talking to me?

                  1. mischeviousme profile image61
                    mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I was addressing your post and blog post. If you'd like there's plenty of web sites that discuss spacetime and the concepts of linear time. Then there's quantum field physics forums and blog sites.

              2. Eaglekiwi profile image77
                Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The Mayans gave us time, cept the calendars running out.

                1. Druid Dude profile image61
                  Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Don't worry....they start printing the 2013 calendars in a month or so.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image77
                    Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    lol like they print money

    4. gmwilliams profile image86
      gmwilliamsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This is true on many points.  There are so many fanatically religionists and pietists who blindly adhere to the dictum of their respective faith.   These people totally abhor any type of intelligent reasoning with them.   If you ask these automatons why you believe in such and such( knowing the totally inane logic of the religious premise), they will inanimately reply to you that either their leader stated it, or their religious book of authority dictated it so it must be true. 

      The average religious person could be totally classified as narrow minded in the least.  They are totally adverse to learning anything new because it will "conflict" with their religious upbringing. It seems as if they are afraid of change because this change will compel them to question the validity of their religious doctrine.   So they close their little minds, preferring to remain in the dark. 

      I have noticed that many religious people are very atavistic in their opinions regarding current events, sexual equality, contraception, and evolution.   These people are medieval in thinking to say the least.    I believe that this is the millenium and religion has NO place in it.   However, I do believe in spirituality- spirituality is very different from religion.   Spirituality is one person's INDIVIDUAL relationship with God or whatever you elect to call it.   I shall not go into the precepts of spirituality here but I know one thing- the truly spiritual person is open to change and is accepting of all while religious people are highly parochial in their thinking thus condemning those who they deem to be different!

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      Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      That's not necessary true.  It may be true in some Christian denominations, like the Pentecostal church I grew up in.  They frowned on me when I asked questions and had a lot of rules.  I felt like I couldn't be 'Me.'  But that is not the same with all Christian denominations or other religions.

      My aunt is a Unitarian and they question everything. I was a member of the UCC (United Church of Christ) for about 5 years and they allow you to question everything and develop your own beliefs. Some believe God is a woman (like my aunt) and some believe in the the possibility of Reincarnation. 

      I am a Catholic convert after feeling the tug to Catholicism since I was 11 or 12 and my Catholic Priest is a modern Catholic who encourages you to think out of the box. He tells us that we don't have to believe in everything the Catholic Church stands on like Birth Control and such.  He likes to use the word "Evolve" saying the Church is constantly 'evolving.'   He even says you can't take everything stated in bible can't be stated as fact. He acknowledges the Gospels has conflicting passages, but we know for a fact that Jesus was born of Mary, preached the word of God, was Crucified, and had risen.  He never tells me I shouldn't ask him questions. He believes more in the Sacraments and our relationship to God.

      So my advice to you is to expand your knowledge on Religion and check out different denominations.  I used to think the same way until I expanded my circle of friends (I am now friends with Buddhists, Muslims, Unitarians, etc) and joined the UCC.  I suggest opening that mind of yours and don't be afraid to ask questions.  No one is going to bite your head off for asking them a question if they know you are sincere.

      1. mischeviousme profile image61
        mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Can I not be of God, can we all not be of the same material? The opinion varries and the perceptions are different, but from seen at another angle, we're very much the same thing. I see the same thing when I look at a tree, I see part of the nature of a greater whole. Why should I be separate from it? Can it not all just be part of a greater whole? It all comes from the same source, there's no need for labels and religions. If we saw everyone else as absolutely equal the need for labels and social standing, would mean absolutely nothing.

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          Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          You have that right to believe that, but that it is what makes the world a beautiful diverse place because some us of believe in God and some don't. For some people it gives life a meaning or purpose. So don't look down on someone who has religious beliefs and don't think like you.

          I for one think  believe Nature is part of God and being out in nature I am closer to God than I would be in a Parish. The parish is a great way to commune with God as well.  I also believe that Muslims, Catholics, and Protestants all worship the same God.  That is our commonality.

          1. mischeviousme profile image61
            mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I share my God with everyone, but I don't do it with words. I have no choice but to use words online, because I can't share that part of myself any other way. I don't mind going to a church or a temple to debate and talk, to me there is no difference between us. My perceptions are not limited to religion or social standing, so much as I percieve all people and things as one.

            This universe is one thing and within it are many smaller universes, that are ultimately still one whole and they happen every moment.

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              Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              As long as your beliefs make you happy is all that should matter to anyone.  Everyone in my family has different beliefs. My aunt is an UU, my brother is Agnostic, my half-sister is Wiccan (although her mom is Christian) my mom is Pentecostal, and  I'm Catholic.  My other aunt I have no idea what she is because refuses to  talk religion.  I have reasons to believe she believes in God but does it in her own way, without going to church at all. 

              I don't think we have the right to go around telling  people "you are, you are wrong, and you're wrong."  No one knows for sure what is the wrong way or the right way to believe. We are just love one another, even our differences. What matters is that you are happy and not hurting anyone else.

          2. jonnycomelately profile image85
            jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Theresa, I fully understand where you are coming from, and am not against your point of view.  I fully support those who do find their faith, and church, and community giving them meaning and support in life.  So much goodness and humanity comes from such circumstances. 

            But when it comes to evangelising, imposing various religious concepts upon those who don't want it, this is not acceptable.

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              Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Whose imposing various religious concepts on others? I'm not trying to convert anyone. So I really don't see what you are getting at.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry you misunderstood me, Theresa.  I was not in any way accusing you of that, far from it.  In fact yours was one of the more generous posts from a christian in recent times.

                1. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  She's a Unitarian Universalist, Christianity is but one small part of that institution. I found out that (in my town) they have a zen meditation on Tuesdays.

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                  Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you Jonnyycomelately.  I did misunderstand you.  Thank you for clearing that up.

                  And you are mistaken mischeviousme. I am not a Unitarian Universalist. My aunt is.  I am Catholic. :-)

                  1. mischeviousme profile image61
                    mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm sorry, I thought that you were, I'm not a UU either.

                  2. mischeviousme profile image61
                    mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, I thought by the way you were talking that you may have switched venues. Again, no insult intended.

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Theresa Mullins
          He acknowledges the Gospels has conflicting passages, but we know for a fact that Jesus was born of Mary, preached the word of God, was Crucified, and had risen.

        = = = =

          In my poinion; the most conflicting passages are those which contradict those things which Jesus said.
          Why would a Christian not believe first, those things which Jesus is said to have spoken (FIRST) ....  and put those other conflicting verses which were spoken by someone else aside; until those things can be understood in such a way as to agree with that which came out of the Masters mouth?    ...

           NOT the other way around!

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          Theresa Mullinsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I feel your frustrations.  You must remember that the books were written 3,000 yrs after Christ.  The stories were past down by word of mouth until someone decided to put it to paper (or whatever they wrote on back then) so like the Telephone Game some of what happen or said has been changed as the stories were passed down generation after generation. 

          You must also remember some books that were originally part of the bible has been removed (like the book of Thomas, Book of Mary, and the book of Judas) just because the Church and King James felt they didn't fit with what they wanted Christians to believe.  I learned from a documentary that King James removed the book of Mary simply because it was written by a woman.  Is that true?  I don't know for sure because I wasn't there, but I do know it is not in the bible.

          We were not there so we can not say exactly what these people witnessed, but we know Jesus was born of Mary, preached the word of God, prosecuted by Pontius Pilot and was Crucified, and had risen.  We just need to follow the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus which he preached about loving your neighbor and what we believe to be Social Justice. 

          A lot of the people who wrote the books of bible also included  their own opinions.  I am not concerned with fears of what they didn't understand at the time.  I am only concerned about my relationship with God.

          I will not argue with you about the bible.  I can't tell you what to believe.  I can only share my thoughts with you and you can ponder on it if you like.  Everyone interrupts it differently even ministers/priests.  I like that my pastor believes in scientific evidence and what has been written in scrolls that archeologists find and that corresponds with what is in the bible.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            50 and 690 B.C. Isaiah prophesied the destruction of the Temple AND that Cyrus shall perform all my pleasures even saying to Jerusalem, thy shalt be built and to the temple, thy foundations shall be built.
               The city and temple had not been destroyed YET!

                 625 B.C.  Jeremiah prophesied that the king of Babylon shall invade Jerusalem taking the people captive and that he will destroy the city and sanctuary. And it shall lay desolate for seventy years.It was destroyed in 586 B.C. 
                 590 B.C.  Ezekiel prophesied the gathering of those that had been taken captive in 605.  In 586 prisoners were taken again and the city and temple was destroyed.

              Daniel, 605 to 539 B.C.  In 539 BC Cyrus decreed that all Hebrews who chose to could return to Jerusalem and rebuild it and the Temple.
             
               Approx 20 BC king Hared ENLARGED the existing temple. 

               Never does scripture say that the temple will be rebuilt a "SECOND" time.
            I don't know where people get the notion that it does.

               In Matthew 24:34  In reference to everything that he had been saying in the PRIVATE conversation with four of the disciples Jesus said; "Verily I say unto YOU, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". , but nobody knows what day or hour for the end shall come as a thief in the night.
             
              Then ... in 96 AD John had his visions of things gone by, current events and things to come.


              And then ...  in 326 AD  a world power did create its own religion and collected certain scriptures to establish a doctrine.
               

               We have free will to interpret these facts any way that we want to.

              Draw your own conclusions.

    6. phillippeengel profile image74
      phillippeengelposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It should be religion and misunderstanding.

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    Emile Rposted 4 years ago

    Ok. You really don't have a clue. Do you? That statement borders on ignorance. If you are speaking of people in the US. You do realize buddhism is a religion? Does that apply to you as well?

    If that's the best you can do at hurling insults at others you might go back to the drawing board. It's pretty lame.

    1. mischeviousme profile image61
      mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not a buddhist, christian, muslim, sufi or hindu. I just think that the indoctrination method is getting stale.

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        Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        You know, say what you want today. You'll change your tune tomorrow. I've been reading your posts for a while now.

        It's all bogus.  Religion, spirituality, atheism....whatever. Anyone who argues any side is caught in the beliefs of their own head along with what someone they look up to has also said. When you speak of religion and philosophy there is no new thought under the sun. We all read. We use the thoughts of others to assist us in formulating our own opinions; but it is all bogus. Do you understand that?  You can't prove a thing. Your personal spiritual beliefs are as foolish and pointless as those of anyone else.

        I've read your posts. Sheesh. You lit matches with your mind?  And you are dogging the Christians?  I don't get it.

        1. mischeviousme profile image61
          mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          And yet you fail to include yourself in that statement. If everyone's belief is bogus, that would have to include your beliefs as well. Right?

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            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Oddly, yes. Because I accept that I know nothing past what I can see and feel doesn't change the fact that my opinions on what may or may not be are equally bogus.

            1. mischeviousme profile image61
              mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I've already admitted that my beliefs were bogus, on numerous threads. I've said that what I believe is unimportant and that all I know is what my brain tells me I should know. This means that I absolutely don't know anything and I'm comfortable with it.

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                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                No. I'm afraid claims of clairvoyance and telekinesis put you in a different category. You obviously aren't comfortable with reality.

                1. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Those were just stories from my childhood. I think maybe my mother was putting me on.

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                    Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    And see, that undermines your credibility.

              2. jonnycomelately profile image85
                jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ha ha ha!   Great when you can push the Ego out the door with you boot, isn't it!

                1. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes it is.

                2. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  All I know, is that I know nothing. I only have a basic understanding of the workings of the universe, until we figure out what it's about, I'll always just have a basic inkling of an idea.

        2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
          Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Emile R, tell me how you are an agnostic when:

          Deism:
          A creator must have created himself for himself to be the creator by an unknown method.

          Atheism:
          Matter was created by an unknown method.

          Even if whatever superior powered 'God' exists, the unknown method would have been what created everything, so he isn't the creator, by any standards. Even if you pretend like God created the method that created mass, he is left with having no causal effect, since it was the method that created matter, God could not have had a causal effect for once again, his own method must have created him.  Or of course, Infinite regression, which would once again render everyone obsolete and the creation being down to the method at which was possible to create.

    2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
      Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      He's got a big clue, what he says applies to most religions. It's you who hasn't got the clues, Buddhism isn't considered a religion by many, so it's just for Misheviousme to have not included it when he said religion.

      In it's very definition, it is a religion or a philosophy.

      So please, keep your bitterness out of the forum Emile R, the man makes a point, religions are rigid.

      And so are you, what with believing that Pope Benedict XIV is a nice man for murdering millions of lives in one of the most painful ways possible.

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        Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Aw gee, did I hit an itty bitty nerve in you? lol

        Get a life. I'm agnostic. I don't have anything against either side. I simply think the childish bickering, finger pointing and less than intelligent OP's are getting to be a bore.

        I don't know if you have bothered to listen to the Christian side of the argument or not, but they are all thinking for themselves for the most part. I don't know that they are spouting regurgitated dogma any more than the few atheists who chose not to think for themselves do also.

        This holier than thou attitude of everyone scrambling to claim non religion is humorous at times. You guys may, or may not, have noticed; but everyone does have a brain and they do, for the most part, use it. (Some of the present company may not be included in that statement. I don't know. I'm still trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here.)

        1. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Have you recently bought yourself a new pair of Rose Coloured Spectacles, Emile?  I don't think there is a more hypocritical country in the world when it comes to the US of A and its religiosity.

          Sure. there are some beautiful and enlightened individuals, from all walks of life and all religious persuasions,  but there are some frauds out there too, earning lots and lots of money from their magnetic abilities to attract dumb followers.

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            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I wouldn't dare to argue that point. But, I don't know any preachers. Most of the people here on Hub Pages seem to be reading the text, listening to others and coming to their own bizarre conclusions.

            My problem with the OP was simply that it is highly hypocritical. You can't follow one religion (call it a philosophy) and then continually lash out at others who are doing the same thing you are doing, without appearing to be a little silly in the process.

            I have no use for religion. I'm actually a little scared of it. But, the OP is ridiculous. I am pretty much surrounded by Christians. I may not agree with them, but they aren't looking to the church to tell them what to think. They honestly don't care if they don't agree with the church. Haven't any of you been listening to the Christians that post here? They think God speaks to them directly. I think that's the same with all of them. Whatever they want to think they assume God stuck in there head.

            It is no different from some of the 'spiritual' voices here who just know that they have somehow been given information that makes them know the truth on a spiritual plane.

            1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
              Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Oh I see, so you are surrounded by a group of humans who say they adhere to one set of rules (that the church set), but in actual fact make up their own set of rules that are freely allowed to conflict with the church rules that they pretend to follow? All on the basis that the same God who was supposed to make the rules of the church, told them conflicting views individually?
              Oh I see..

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Read their posts man. Not simply to give yourself a platform to attempt to sound intelligent when you respond. Take the time to read what they are saying. Sheesh.

                1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                  Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  "I am pretty much surrounded by Christians. I may not agree with them, but they aren't looking to the church to tell them what to think"

                  Christians adhere to a Christian church. The people around you do not seek the guidance of their church, the very thing that makes them Christians, and instead, do what they feel like. I don't think I misread anything smilex

                  Please point out where I have though, it would be an enlightening experience.

                  1. Jason Marovich profile image89
                    Jason Marovichposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You'd be omitting the millions of people that adhere to the church's rules, and remind themselves of them, every day of their lives when they read the Christian rule book, the Bible.

        2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
          Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Everyone may use their brain to an extent, and it's precisely the extent used that worries intelligent people. The religious are susceptible to all manners of trickery, the fact that they have adhered so strongly to something without any proof is the perfect exemplification of that.

          And not so much a nerve but my amgydala smile Ignorant statements such as " you do realize buddhism is a religion?" and "that statement borders on ignorance" does that.

          1. 0
            JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I'll never understand this argument... what makes you think people don't have proof? Maybe it's not the kind of proof you would prefer, or maybe it is and they wouldn't want to openly share personal things with those who mock them... you don't know what anyone else has experienced.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              lol If you don't understand the argument, then you don't even know what comprises proof or evidence.

            2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
              Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              And neither do I care about what anyone else has experienced.

              If you can show me something that provides evidence, then please do.

              It is a very simple argument to understand.

            3. OutWest profile image61
              OutWestposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              That is so very true Jaxson.  But for those of us who have experienced God's presence we can share.  The real things in life are never really talked about in the open because those who don't understand almost always ridicule.  Maybe they feel threatened, who knows.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Ok. Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You just know, don't you? God spoke directly to you. You might read a Bible, but you think what you think is right on the topic.

                Am I right?

                1. OutWest profile image61
                  OutWestposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  And what are you talking about?

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm trying to explain why the OP is bogus. You think on your own. Your conclusions fall in the category of religion, but the conclusions are your own. You aren't, in your own mind, following the church. Are you?

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Who wouldn't feel threatened by anyone who claimed they've seen God and wants to share it. lol

                1. OutWest profile image61
                  OutWestposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I never said I saw Him.  And even if that is true how would my experience with God threaten you.  Did I personally do something to you I'm not aware of?

              3. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Children will tell me that they saw santa claus clambering up the chimney, I am as inclined to believe them as I am inclined to believe any other poor delusional soul, especially those that are so convinced of their own brainwashing that they feel they can share it with others sad

                Poor Timmy, there was never any santa :'(

                1. OutWest profile image61
                  OutWestposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I must say I feel sorry for you.  Unfortunately you own heart will never be open enough for God to enter it...oh but at least you aren't the delusional one ...or are you?  And you are even unable to accept that there is a possibility.  Very dilusional thinking there my friend.  At least I'm able to admit that I don't know but it's what I believe.  You on the other hand are unable to accept someone elses belief.  And if there is a God, which no one knows but could be possible, who is the delusioned one then?

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The ones who believe in a God, of course. You said it yourself, "no one knows"

              4. secularist10 profile image89
                secularist10posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Out West:

                "But for those of us who have experienced God's presence we can share."

                How do you know it was God you experienced?

                1. OutWest profile image61
                  OutWestposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't "know" but it is what I believe.  And I have been able to share with many people who have had similar experiences.  Kind of when a person enters a room and you can feel their presence, this is similar but so much stronger.  It would leave no doubt in you.

                  1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                    Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    So, this powerful incredible presence only occurs to those who force themselves to believe "enough" before feeling it?

                    Those that do not feel it? Pah! They are fools, they do not believe enough in that which cannot be explained!

                    What has the world come to OutWest sad

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    That is nonsense, you can't "feel" someone entering a room. What are you, a Jedi? lol

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Lookee there.....it's a world religion chart and ??????? Could it be?????
            Yes. I see buddhism listed. Go play elsewhere. You aren't really making the headway you'd hoped. smile\\
            http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6100668_f248.jpg

            1. mischeviousme profile image61
              mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Yet if you talk to a buddhist, their realy not all that religious. They'll say that what they are doing is following a path to enlightenment, where a christian will say they are following Jesus's path. In buddhism you follow your own path or you can choose to follow another. If buddhism is a religion, it's more a free flowing method and lacks alot of the indoctrination method found in other disciplines.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Right. Keep telling yourself that. You sound exactly like a Christian arguing that they don't follow a religion. Why believe that of buddhists and not Christians? Sounds a little biased. It's always fun to follow a crowd....is it?

                1. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm just telling you like it is. I don't follow any crowds and I don't feel I need to. I look at all things as  being rediculous, that includes all forms of religion, philosophy and spirituality.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    And yet you prattle on and on. Sharing your philosophy/religion. Bashing Christians. Telling how you see into the mind of others.

                    What is wrong with this picture?

              2. lone77star profile image91
                lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @mischeviousme, you have a twisted sense of "religion."

                I too have studied Buddhism. I studied under Rinpoche Gyaltsen, amongst others. I was even married to a Buddhist for twelve years.

                Sure seemed like a religion to me--a beautifully spiritual religion.

                So, what's your definition of "religion?" Please define.

                Here's 2 for reference:

                "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."

                "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

                Buddhism fits both of those from my own experience.

            2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
              Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Pahahah, I'm sorry, that's just too great. Since when were charts found on the internet the authority for the definitions of things? Pahaha.

              What were those books that were invented to let people know what the definitions of words were? Oh yes, dictionaries. That is where you go if you are confused about something's status. Pahaha.

              Bud·dhism
              noun /ˈbo͞odizəm/  /ˈbo͝od-/ 

              A widespread Asian religion or  philosophy , founded by Siddartha Gautama in northeastern India in the 5th century bc

              Check and mate Emile, give it up.
              You were wrong, no need to cry, nor to grasp at straws either, we can move on now
                "sheesh"

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It isn't check or mate. You really really need to get this need to be right in check. It's unbecoming. It's a disagreement. We can certainly go back and forth, finding sources to support our claims; but, the final point is that we can both find information to support our claims.

                If you really really need to think you made a point, go ahead and believe it.

                1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                  Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  No, you googled "religions of the world chart" and found one that said buddhism. Not a source of authority.

                  I went to the authority of the definitions of words, and provided authoritative support for my statement.

                  There's a big difference lol

                  And you need to get your incessant Ad Hominem addiction checked, it's really quite inappropriate.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No, you are wrong. Check and Mate!! I binged, buddhism is a religion and I got some free pictures. I just picked the one with the pretty colors.

              2. lone77star profile image91
                lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                @Phil, you're talking garbage.

                I was a Buddhist for more than a decade. Even married one. It's a religion.

                Definitions:
                3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
                4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

                Buddhism fits both.

                The path to Enlightenment has philosophy, but the purpose of that path is religion.

                Christianity has philosophy (the Beatitudes, for instance), but the purpose of it is religion -- the awakening of the true self.

            3. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
              Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Just to put salt on the wound, the chart is even wrong! What an offence to HB that this chart was ever even entered.

              Let's start with the fact that the chart has "Atheists, Agnostics etc." as one of the slices of its incorrect pie.  Etc? Nice. Informative.

              Let's then move on to the idea that it says 750,000,000 people. When it was over 1.1 billion in 2005, and has been growing rapidly since.. Your chart says that there are 750 million in 2009? ...

        3. 0
          jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Every animal starting from hydra got a brain Emile and they are using it. Analytical brain is a human specialty(more developed in humans, thats all), and not many, especially the religious, don't use it[especially  concerning their religion]

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            roll

            We all have our blind spots jomine. We are also all narrow minded. If we insult an entire group of people (whom we don't know), simply because they are a loosely associated group; how, exactly are we more enlightened than they are?

            1. 0
              jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              A fact, however undesirable or inconvenient is still a fact. No religion/god is based on logic or reason. It is the use of these faculties  we call intelligence and hence religious can be termed non-intelligent, but they will not be the only ones(Again, they might be unintelligent only with respect to religion, in other fields they might be)
              Another thing is nervous system(brain) is the organ that uses the maximum energy and all animals try to preserve energy and hence tend to use brain as less as possible, and human beings are no exception. Among the multitudes you find that there are very few people who are known to at least a majority. The rest of as are the rule not exceptions.


              Enlightened?? There is no enlightenment needed but a willingness to use the brain we already have.
              Note Emile I'm not telling anybody is a moron because they haven't got brain, but because they are unwilling to use that part of brain that make as intelligent.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                And I say it may not be moronic to firmly state that anyone with religion isn't using their brain at its full potential; but it certainly shows evidence that the same argument could easily be used against the person making the statement.

                1. 0
                  jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Emile,
                  Religious beliefs are irrational and regarding that aspect they are idiotic, but that doesn't mean they are idiotic in all aspects. For Benedict to be pope he has to have ambition and a Good brain to be what he is, but the beliefs he propound, if he beliefs in it, does not make him intelligent in that respect.

          2. Eaglekiwi profile image77
            Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Yea but that's just your opinion(not a fact) ,because you don't know every Christian,never have ,never will, neither will I smile

            Sp perhaps its not good to assume or generalise.

            1. 0
              jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I don't need to know any christian, i only need to know the logic

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                ROFLMAO, good to know.  You be sure to come back when you "know" the logic then.

                As for me, I've always seen stereotyping an entire group as completely illogical. Of course I see it as intellectually lazy and an indication of ignorance too. 

                I'm sure you can manage to twist it around in your brain that it ISN'T bigotry when you do it to the religious but it IS when the religious right does it to gays.  However, making broad sweeping generalizations about a group based on an obviously limited understanding of that group... well, there is a name for that.  It's not "logical" or "reasonable" either.


                Don't let me stop you though, I love watching a paragon of intelligence at work.

                1. 0
                  jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Think yourself too clever, eh?
                  A group is consisting of many individuals with different versions, but Christians in general is having the belief that there is a god and he came himself as his son and got killed to save mankind.
                  Religious people believe there is a god and he created everything.
                  Both these are illogic and irrational and hence unintelligent. If you read carefully i didn't say all religious are idiots, what i said was they are idiotic in terms of there religious beliefs but may be intelligent in other aspects.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You have no idea.  Fortunately, I have based my assessment of my own intelligence on reason and logic.



                    You do realize you are using the definition of Christianity provided by those who you deem illogical and unreasonable?  Once again, carry on. 



                    See above.




                    I should, of course, take your word on what is intelligent.  BTW, shouldn't it be illogical instead of illogic?  Especially since illogic isn't a word?  Bah, don't even worry about it, you don't need to master a language to call someone unintelligent (at least you spelled that right).  I would point out though that taking any stance on creationism as truth is illogical, however, as there is no observable evidence of any theory out there.  Without observable evidence, EVERYTHING is conjecture. 




                    Good.  Since you are apparently knowledgeable about all religious beliefs, please tell me how mine are idiotic?  Remember, if your "theory" is incorrect on one single person, it has been proven fallible. (Horrible scientific standard eh?) Theories that have been proven fallible are pretty much garbage opinions.  Since you HAVE said that "they are idiotic in terms of religious beliefs" then go about proving that by examining the idiotic beliefs of all religious individuals.  Once again, I am volunteering to make your job much much shorter.

  3. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago

    Dern it all I sure do wish I had some smarts so I maybecould defends myself and kinfolk.

    1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
      Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Organised religion does a great job of defending itself without intelligence, offence is the best defence. Go IRAQ!

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image77
      Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      Ders gold in them thar hills

  4. TheAshleyDaily profile image61
    TheAshleyDailyposted 4 years ago

    Although I disagree with your viewpoint, I understand what you're saying. However, I think it goes further than jut religious groups. Any thing your a part of, whether it be a job, a group, a frat, sorority, club, to some extend its expected that you "think" or rather conform to some of their standards.

    1. mischeviousme profile image61
      mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      "If you're not with us you're against us". That's about the mentallity of the average group of people.

      1. TheAshleyDaily profile image61
        TheAshleyDailyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        i do agree with that statement. the average mentality of any-religious or secular-group of people

        1. mischeviousme profile image61
          mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I don't even like being around my friends and familly, based solely on the fact that their mostly religious and/or are sports fanatics.

          1. TheAshleyDaily profile image61
            TheAshleyDailyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            thats valid. i grew up in a religious household & i used to be one of those peopleu described. once something is embedded into you, it's hard to dismiss it but it is possible. now that's its always a good thing, you have to challenge them on their turf. Whether they respond quickly, or jump to the gun, they are listening, and they will think about the dissenting opinion presented to them.

    2. HattieMattieMae profile image69
      HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Think you're right Ashley we molded by society,culture,family,religion,schools.
      You are basically shaped and molded
      to fit in your location in life. Until you
      become and independent thinker
      and than everyone gets their feathers ruffled.

  5. Druid Dude profile image61
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    I have no religion as most define it. As the supreme court defines it is paraphrased this way :Any set of concepts or beliefs by which you live your daily life. Atheism, by this definition, is a religion. Being an athlete constitutes their belief system. Especially if they do it religiously. As it is defined here, my religion is beyond what you have ever encountered, therefore, I think that intelligence is required for religion (or science) to have arisen at all. Have a nice day!smile

  6. Insane Mundane profile image61
    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago

    mischeviousme said: "I don't get angry easily. I see it all as pretty much the same thing; a basic understanding of the fundamental laws of nature. In other words, we don't know anything about anything. Science has an idea and again it's only true in concept and is subject to the design of another, earlier model."

    That's nice, there's a New Age "object/concept" religion out there that you'd be glad to adhere to.  Personally, I've never seen a rock talk, but whatever floats your boat.  Maybe PCP & LSD isn't so bad after all, albeit I'll pass on the drugs, but thanks anyway...  hmm

  7. Eaglekiwi profile image77
    Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago

    What a weird and delightful bunch of humans we are ,speak for myself I hear you say,well now wouldn't that be unique on Hubpages lol speaking for ones self.


    To me, it doesnt matter how people arrive at knowledge or understanding ,but that they arrive smile

    1. Insane Mundane profile image61
      Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Ain't that the freakin' truth!

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image77
        Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        wink

  8. Claire Evans profile image90
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    If I write something that appears to go against my OWN religion, I'm still chastised for not thinking for myself.

  9. Claire Evans profile image90
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    Chastised my non-believers, that is.  People are generally the same.

    1. HattieMattieMae profile image69
      HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Yeap they are, we all mirrors of each other on the opposite spectrum. You can find something in the other person you're around that similar or the same as you in some behavior or thought.

  10. pisean282311 profile image58
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    quite right...

  11. Pcunix profile image90
    Pcunixposted 4 years ago

    Lordy.  When people start using colors in a forum thread, it's time for me to leave..

  12. 61
    Noeyposted 4 years ago

    This entire discussion is opinion, correct?  There is one thing I didn't see in here that I must share.  I know without a doubt that Jesus Christ is real.  Now I was raised Catholic, but I did't find the answers to my questions there.  I had a deep desire to know what was true.  Now that I know there is no religion or person who will ever sway me from the truth.  The bible being the oldest and most published book should tell everyone something.  What it tells me is that God's Promises are real and I am proof.  If you seek the truth with your whole heart and soul, you will find it, and when you do the truth will set you free. smile Noey

    1. mischeviousme profile image61
      mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      The Upanishads predate the bible by at least 2,000 years, they are the oldest written texts to date.

  13. Insane Mundane profile image61
    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago

    Religion, Science, Intelligence, Myths, Legends, & Folklore, Ancient History, etc., are all a "good mix" for many of us curious Homo sapiens - including the critics and the skeptical, although none of those things will ever "blend well" with the people who constantly stay in a confused state of mind, such as yourself.  roll

    1. mischeviousme profile image61
      mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Tell me how I'm confused. Are you here to show the masses how confused and utterly blind they are?
      lol lol lol

      1. Insane Mundane profile image61
        Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        For one, you change your mind and belief system from day to day and two, you admit that you have needed to experiment with psycho-troubled substances to "find awareness," and three (although the list could go on), your extra additions of LOL emoticans reveal the rest of the story. What a shame...  I'm not showing "the masses," as you say, anything other than pointing out the obvious.  roll

        1. mischeviousme profile image61
          mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It reveals that your attack was laughed at. You can attack my credibillity all you wish, just be mindful of your own.

          1. Insane Mundane profile image61
            Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Attack?  Oh, I'm now attacking people?  I've heard of pantywaist pansies before, but dang!  I had no idea you felt "attacked," as you say.  Now that's funny right there...  lol  If I tone it down anymore for ya, I'll be drooling over myself with slow, syllabic sounds and moans.  I'm trying to come down to your level, and it still isn't good enough for you to understand; ha!   WTF?

            1. mischeviousme profile image61
              mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              You keep slinging attack after attack. You're just making yourself look like an extremist, of which there are many.

              1. Insane Mundane profile image61
                Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                There you go again, flinging labels at people.  I'm now an extremist?  At what, may I ask?  Your little name-calling and labelling makes you sound like one of those little brats that like to spout all day long about what they know about universe and the inner-workings of the cosmos, but when anyone questions them, it is "oh, no, I'm being attack by a merciless being from the cosmic jihad!"  You react that way, because you have no backing or credentials whatsoever, but I wasn't going to say that, albeit you insist on slinging dung and proclaiming false accusations.   Unlike most people in a debate, confused beings like you need credentials or else, you get silently laughed at and felt sorry for.  hmm

                1. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  At least I'm making people laugh. I may be a clown and I may be ignorant of your ways, at least I'm not a @!$* about it.

                  1. Insane Mundane profile image61
                    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Although being a clown or humorous is better when the person does it on purpose, your self-admittance to the laughingstock stage, is worthy of at least one good chuckle from me. Ha~ha...  I'm being a ... what about it? Hey, no need to start name-calling and picking on the poor innocent donkeys...

                2. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Who is attacking whom? I never claimed to know anything about the cosmos, I just say it like I see it. You have any issues that need to be resolved? You seem like a very angry person. I have a couch if you feel like talking about it for a while. How is my behavior making you so angry? And if I'm the cause of your anger, how do you feel you are being constructive with it?

                  1. Insane Mundane profile image61
                    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You brought up anger first, in an earlier post, which, as you say, is a primitive response.  I can't get mad at for what I feel sorry for, but that could change, of course.

              2. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Insane Mundane is just a troll, I wouldn't waste the time reading what he says lol

                1. Insane Mundane profile image61
                  Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You have an inferiority complex, and you often call anyone a troll that you can't relate to that doesn't succumb to your asininity.   In fact, I've seen you get labelled as a troll within certain comment fields @ HP, as you must really be bitter about that.  I hope your wounds heal, but personally, I've never lowered myself to the point to where I even acknowledge that "online trolls" exist.  Since you seem to have a fetish for such, please explain what qualifies one as a troll, dear 'common sense' hater.

                2. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I was just about to call him out. But I don't like feeding into too much negativity.

                  1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
                    Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Hahaha yeah, that's very kind of you, I just thought I'd try and save you the trouble of reading whatever gibberish he decides to try and feed you this time lol

                  2. Insane Mundane profile image61
                    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Call me out?  What, is this a western showdown? Alright!  I've got plenty of ammunition for your negative attack, although I've been as positive as I could be, thus far.   Ha-ha-ha!  What a joke!  You people start subjects, threads, forums, etc., and can't even handle the feedback without getting defensive.  Maybe I should just be lame like "Philan," and start calling everybody a troll.  Nope, I'll pass dear wanna-be cyber-villain...  LOL!

  14. Apostle Jack profile image62
    Apostle Jackposted 4 years ago

    Intelligence is one of the 9 traits that define the spiritual integrity of our Celestial spirits. It is not define by religion nor gender,but by spiritual concept.
    Every creature of life is endowed by God with intelligence.It refer to the intellect of our Celestial spirits from which we communicate,choose and coordinate the ability and integrity of the spirituality within our spiritual bodies.
    So lets reevaluate your stance on what intelligence is.

  15. Insane Mundane profile image61
    Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago

    Philanthrophy2012 is a great example of this forum thread, as he detests not only religion, but also intelligence, and obviously so, as the self-hating troll continues forward with ITs utmost asininity.  It's a shame, however, that we can't get on a topic that doesn't involve childish name-calling, or else, I guess, the poor chap "Philan" would have to retire to the ladies room and begin taking out his/her anger against one of the exposed orifices that he/she deemed necessary, and commence to pervading a gap that doesn't quite so resemble the one between the poor bloke's ears.

    1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
      Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Without even reading Insane Troll's post, I can imagine since it starts with "Philanthropy2012" it'll be another of his hate speeches, I urge all people not to waste their time reading it, he's our local neighbourhood troll. 

      Happy Hubbing big_smile

      1. Insane Mundane profile image61
        Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, Miss Multiple HP accounts.  LOLOLOL!  Your the Hood's Hoodlum!  Plain & simple...  I know what you're doing, trying to bring me down to your low level of scum, but guess what, it doesn't matter anyway since I don't pay for HP's web hosting nor do I own the actual servers, do you? lol

      2. Insane Mundane profile image61
        Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Alas, Philan accuses people of "hating" when He/She has to use multiple accounts to circumvent banning or to save face, just to make his trolling attempts throughout random forums.  In fact, this imbecile has even admitted on certain forums that he/she uses other accounts to do such.  Don't even try to drag me down to YOUR troll status, as I may be a lot of things, but not some under-educated troll wanna-be, like you.  LOL!

        Okay, folks, carrying on, or as IT says, Happy Hubbing big_smile

  16. wilmiers77 profile image61
    wilmiers77posted 4 years ago

    I am not defending all so-called religious persons, but I experienced the problem with witnessing to nonbelievers is getting them to think in the correct arena; the arena of faith where God can do anything period.

    Intelligence relies on knowledge, and knowledge without wisdom is very dangerous.  Wisdom comes  not from the immediate or near future, but long term considerations into the pass and future.  Max wisdom comes from God. This arena is spiritually reflected most by the heart with love.

    The most intelligent and technologically advanced societies tend not to seek higher humanitarian values for the good of all, but instead seeks to overpower  and conqueror other societies such as dramatized by Nazi Germany. So, what changes the heart of man other than Godly values?

    "Without science religion is lame; without religion science is blind.", Einstein

    1. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Bravo, @wilmiers77. Well said!

      That's why it saddens me to see so many so-called Fundamentalists disrespecting science because it doesn't match their shallow interpretation of scripture. It's painful to watch their ego, arrogance and laziness.

      If they only approached the gates of heaven as a beggar, they could find truth. As it is they are blinding themselves to it all.

      And the same goes for the non-believers who ridicule. They do not know, but they presume to know it all.

      Even Einstein started out knowing how to be humble. Too bad he clung to his laurels and forgot his roots. Humility is the antidote to ego and the only way to learn anything.

  17. Druid Dude profile image61
    Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago

    Exactly which part of how we got here could NOT POSSIBLY have been engineered? Just cause I don't know how fizzies work, doesn't mean they don't. Even what is scientifically called the Big Bang. Terraforming a planet might be how WE got here. Imagine a civilization as old as the universe itself. Imagine that civilization compared to ours now. Consider this: Everything is a manifestation of energy...including consciousness. Consciousness must be included in the equation, because consciousness exists. We are in the universe, and the universe is in us, therefore, the universe has consciousness.

    1. Insane Mundane profile image61
      Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Now that sounds like good reasoning and also leads to the Anthropic Principle, which, with or without the "principle," it still takes an observer to notice such things and a universe to allow it.  My gawd, intelligent life does exist...  wink

  18. aware profile image70
    awareposted 4 years ago

    religious groups  make blanket   statements .

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      My wife hogs our blankets!smile Everything I said is logical. Here's another thing I see. We, as in earth people, have not yet found the "End" of the universe, therefore, we can not definitively say that we have found the "beginning" for if there is no "end", what we have found cannot possibly be the "beginning" and the real problem is this...no matter what we do, we can't see the end because we can only see the past.

      1. Druid Dude profile image61
        Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, and by the way, I represent no "religious" group at all. I find religion to be a quaint idea which changes nothing whatsoever. It had a purpose, but that purpose evolved. Now, it is an obstacle to true enlightenment.

        1. wilmiers77 profile image61
          wilmiers77posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Have you actually studied the scriptures? If so, please name a few moral codes that are superior to the bible's teachings.

        2. lone77star profile image91
          lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          @Druid Dude, you do not know "true enlightenment."

          If you think you are nothing more than that Homo sapiens vessel, then you are truly lost.

          If you think that the advancements of science (and what a sexy bunch of logic is found there... yum!) are all that there is to "enlightenment," then you're barking up the wrong tree.

          The purpose of religion is to awaken the "true self" (the soul). That is what was "Enlightenment" to Gautama Siddhartha. That is what was "everlasting life" to Yehoshua of Nazareth.

          And to the Druids? They believed in reincarnation, to the irritation of Julius Caesar. But death without enlightenment becomes a separation--a rift. With enlightenment (everlasting life), death is merely a step in a long continuity.

          Some people's interpretations of religion are an obstacle to enlightenment. But that's only ego getting in the way. True enlightenment is the death of ego and the reawakening of the true self.

          Ego is the obstacle. Even scientists cannot make advancements when ego is in full force.

          1. Insane Mundane profile image61
            Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I keep hearing all of this talk about Ego; what is that?  Is that a religion of some sort or a "holier than thou" type belief?  It sounds like the ones who speak about EGO seem to know a whole hell of a lot about it, if ya ask me...  LOL! lol

    2. lone77star profile image91
      lone77starposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      And did @aware make a blanket statement, too? wink

  19. aware profile image70
    awareposted 4 years ago

    i wasn't directing   my answer towards anyone,

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      No offense taken...just an opportunity to expound. Peace

  20. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 4 years ago

    @mischeviousme, religion and intelligence not a good mix? It depends upon your definition of religion. And it depends upon the religious group about which your speaking. There are many and not all of them are the same.

    Sure, there are some that frown upon thinking for yourself, but you're generalizing again! Such generalities are founded on poor logic.

    I found in my more than a decade in Buddhism, that thinking for myself was far more acceptable than in any other religion. And yes, Buddhism is a religion.

    Definition time:
    3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
    4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

    That fits Buddhism and many other religions perfectly.

    I was even married to a Buddhist for 12 years. And I studied with Rinpoche Gyaltsen while he was in Los Angeles. My favorite Buddhist book is "Way to Go," by Khentin Tai Situ Pa. Very religious stuff. And I've had many long conversations with a lovely Cambodian couple about wisdom and compassion.

    Rigid Religions

    I know what you mean about asking questions going against doctrine (dogma). My grandfather was a Southern Baptist minister. My poor grandmother couldn't stand my talking about the memories I had of other lives. She said that she had only and always been only herself, never someone else. To which I replied, "Exactly! I agree completely." But she was talking about her body, and I was talking about the immortal, true self, within (the soul) -- the non-self in Buddhism -- that which "allows" things to happen, as in the rainmaker principle. This is the true self that perceives the as-it-isness of things and resides in the paramita.

    Too Many Generalities

    @mischeviousme, for all of your philosophizing, you seem to be relatively clueless. Perhaps you know a great deal, but it's being lost in translation -- between your brain and your fingertips. Don't speak with generalities; you lose too much when you aim at the whole what applies only to a subset.

  21. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 4 years ago

    Philanthropy2012 wrote:

    Oh really? Because this doesn't seem to agree with what you just said:

    "You do realize buddhism is a religion?"

    ***************************************

    Not by the definition of religion.

    In Buddhism there is no God, no creator, and religion is the worship of God

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      In his defense, per his argument, he agrees with you. He is arguing the same point you are. And, by a narrow view, I would agree. He was upset with me for making that statement. I'm just not a fan of narrow views.

      Religion, by practice, trancends that definition. Buddhism, in my opinion, many times falls into the category of religion. It is entirely up to the practices of the adherent.

      1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
        Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Aye, but in this case, there is no need to chastise a fellow hubber for disagreeing!

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Again, you miss the mark be a mile. I wasn't chastising. I'm beginning to worry about your ability to understand the written word. smile

          1. Philanthropy2012 profile image92
            Philanthropy2012posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            More insults? Hurtful, Emile R.

            You hurt some feelings today, put a mark on your tally chart and feel satisfied.

            wink

            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I think that chip in your shoulder has festered.

              But it's been nice to meet you. You are the first hubber I honestly consider to be a troll.

  22. recommend1 profile image69
    recommend1posted 4 years ago

    "experiments only proved that the clocks they use change with speed and nothing else, that is the clocks are not reliable at high velocities"

    big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile

    In a long history of grappling with nonsense this thread is right up there  big_smile

    I would advise anyone passing by to take a read all the way through, I have'nt seen such funny twaddle in a long time.  big_smile

    1. 0
      jomineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Come back at times, after worshiping your god Einstein.

      1. Druid Dude profile image61
        Druid Dudeposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Who made Einstein? God loves a good disguise.. Consider this: Halloween used to be a night of fear and superstition. Inspiration turned it into a fun time, filled with strange and horrendous spectres that taught our children not to take the boogeyman seriously. Candy, candy candy...all things must surely pass, but new things arise. That is immutable and very Jesusian(Think I just created a word!) Everything is a manifestation of energy, including consciousness. I am in the universe, and the universe is in me. When I was a child, I spoke as a child.

        1. Insane Mundane profile image61
          Insane Mundaneposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yep, and the cool thing about that, is that the cosmos is always changing while people that adhere to the stagnant belief systems out there, are constantly fighting against the "fade to black."  Then again, we have people out there that doesn't even believe that energy exists because it isn't an object with a location, as they say.  lol

  23. HattieMattieMae profile image69
    HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago

    The preacher of reality! Who made you the know it all of our planet?

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image77
      Eaglekiwiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      lol maybe hes self appointed lol

  24. HattieMattieMae profile image69
    HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago

    Melissa they might be aware of the Universal Life Church does have a lot of Mystics,Metaphysical,Psychic  etc ministers. Alot of them go under Universal Life Church although they might not advertise it. They do teach classes on all spiritual things like Wicca for example. I can't remember at the moment all they cover, but I do know plenty of them fall under the UU. So that might be what they're trying to get at.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      HattieMattieMae, I don't know enough about the ULC to comment on them.  I don't believe they are affiliated with the UU church in any way though.  The names are similar but it's not my denomination.

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Melissa, run!  You're far too intelligent to contribute to this religious thread.  You know that the two cannot cohabit in the same person.

        Sheesh.

        wink

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I know, but I am apparently too stupid to find the back button.  As such, I (with my lowly 131 IQ and B.A. in English) am being forced to listen to someone call me idiotic while cutting and pasting online dictionary definitions.

          I am also being told that my religion (which isn't really a religion) and all members of that faith unquestioningly believe in the supernatural because Wiki says that we draw inspiration from those faiths that believe in God.  I draw inspiration from Shakespeare too, but that doesn't make me a dead Englishman.  The person making these claims likely never heard of U.U. before rushing to the internet to find something they could quote out of context to prove that I really did believe in something that I don't. 

          Could someone who is much more intelligent than my idiotic self please tell me how to get off this page?  I accidentally wandered in when my foam rubber helmet bounced off the keyboard.

  25. HattieMattieMae profile image69
    HattieMattieMaeposted 4 years ago

    But Again They register the dogs on their to be ministers. Ha Ha than their dogs are legally able to marry other dogs. I had to  laugh at that one when I first heard it Melissa. Anyone can sign up to be a legal minister on that site regardless if you're an atheist, or agnostic, or what spaghetti monster! lol

  26. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
    TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago

    I understand why you feel this way. I have had this experience myself in religious circles. However this is a sweeping generalization. Unless you have had first hand experience with every single religion out there, you can't honestly say that all religions do not allow you to think for yourself or allow you to question. It's people's ego's that don't allow questioning and free thinking, it's people's ego's that cause wars, not religion. They just use religion to justify their actions which were really caused by their ego's. I have learned to accept that the faults  we so often observe in religious circles is not in the religions themselves but in the people claiming allegiance to those religions.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Good to see you again.

      1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
        TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Hahaha hey bro!

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          It's a quarter to 3  ....  AM ...  and I"M a goina go and intentionally fall down in THA bed.
             See Ya some more later in tA day.

          1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
            TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Ok for sure. God bless!

    2. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      With reference to your other point on evolution, insistence on adherence to the biblical creation account as interpreted literally, does not permit freedom of thought and questioning.

      1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
        TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Actually it does. No one is forcing me to insist on anything, it is my choice. However I do feel like others are insisting that I depart from my Biblical Worldview. EXAMPLE: If it has been discovered that if you ingest cynanide you will die, then no one is forcing you to refrain from taking cynanide that is your choice based off of the previously discovered fact. Therefore, if I claim to accept the Bible as The Word of God, then how inconsistent of me would it be to not accept the Bible's account of creation. Thus, it is a necessary conclusion that does not necessitate any coercion.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image88
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          By suggesting that those who do not interpret the creation account literally are pleasing men and rejecting the doctrines of God, you are thereby passing a judgment upon these others from a position of perceived superiority. Thus you are denying them the right to free thinking, because the results of doing so take them away from what you perceive to be the truth.

          Now it makes no more sense to regard Genesis literally than it does to interpret Jesus' parables and Revelation literally. You don't seriously believe that a literal 10 headed dragon is going to walk up your local beach and order an ice cream do you? Or that birds swooping down eating seed off a path are actually literally satan? Of course not; they are allegory, parallel, pictures, etc. So why should Genesis be different?

          Don't forget that the ancient Hebrew picture of the universe was of a flat Earth supported on pillars that went down through the waters below to Sheol; that the sky was a dome over the Earth on the underside of which the sun and moon traversed; and that the stars were either the light from Heaven poking through holes or angelic beings around the throne of God.

          1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
            TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hahahah ok now you’re exaggerating. I wasn’t suggesting anything about anybody,  like I said I speak for myself, I don’t speak for others unless I say so explicitly. Furthermore, by accusing me of passing judgment on others you’re shifting the argument to another issue to deflect the attention from the real issue at stake which is “why Christians do not accept evolution even after many of their leaders do.” So may I ask that you stick to the topic and let us not get side tracked into oblivion with the end result being futile bickering with neither of us making any headway into the psyche of one another.

            Now, in reference to your statement regarding the symbolical nature of the Bible; yes I do know many texts are to be taken symbolically. But here is where you are missing it and where many others do as well. By what method do you determine when a text is to be taken literally and when it is to be taken symbolically? You cannot assume that the whole Bible is to be taken metaphorically. Did you know that there are clues that help us to determine if a text is to be taken in metaphor. The first clue that I always look for is if they tell you overtly that it’s a metaphor; which Jesus did in His parables. He explicitly stated to His disciples that His parables were metaphors. He then went on to explain what they represented. He did the same thing in the book of Revelation. But He did not however do this with the book of Genesis.

            Your reference to the ancient Hebrews and their actions are not relevant to the validity of the Bible. For even the prophets were constantly admonishing the ancient Hebrews for departing from what the Torah taught. Their actions have nothing to do with the accuracy or validity of Bible doctrine. Does the conduct of a Physics teacher reflect the validity of the principles of Physics? Certainly not, and the same goes for the conduct of all those who claim to believe in God. Their conduct has no relevance at all whatsoever to the truth or falsity of the Oracles of God.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image88
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We can take a line of scripture metaphorically when a literal interpretation is demonstrated to be incorrect by historical or scientific enquiry.

              Furthermore the Hebrew picture of the universe came a result of their interpretation of scripture. If it was for scientific enquiry, this view would still be held by the Church and anyone else who takes a literal view.

              1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
                TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I have to agree with your first point totally. In fact I started a hub about this issue yesterday. I should be through with it today or tomorrow.

                Regarding your second point I disagree because the Bible clearly states in Isaiah 40:22 that the earth is spherical.

                You have to get pass this "scientific inquiry" issue. Scientific inquiry is nothing more than common sense. But it appears that these days it's not so common. So what, big deal! Someone observes some phenomenon, comes up with a hypothesis, tests it and it holds and then it becomes a principle of physics, or biology or some other branch of science. This is not difficult to do, will you please discard your awe of them! I detect idolatry, but hey I'm just sayin. It's called using your reasoning faculty! We all have one, who's saying not to use it?

                When a Bible scholar has the time and resources to conduct scientific research it is a piece of cake, believe me. They have a harder time trying to understand metaphysics than we do physics.

                The prophet Daniel greatly exceeded the scientists of the babylonian empire who were very learned in the sciences. See Daniel 1:20. Its no big deal to think scientifically, in fact it is a habit for me. That's just a fancy phrase used to describe thinking logically.

                Irrespective of what you claim the ancient Hebrews believed concerning their idea of the universe can you find in the Bible where these alleged views could have originated?

                Time and time again whenever someone argues that the Bible is not this or not that they always point to man as a reason for believing so, but rarely do I come across individuals who are able to point to scripture for faults.

                I could find people with faulty ideas in any religion or scientific discipline. Will you please get off the people and stick to the Bible. If you're looking for faultless people, good luck!

  27. punamdharkar profile image61
    punamdharkarposted 4 years ago

    Religious practise accounts for a dogmatic and limiting framework; spiritual living means enquiring where you need to use the intelligence, not to be mistaken for the limiting ego or frame work of thought.

    1. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
      TheLoanConsultantposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly. We agree. This is along the lines of what Jesus said to the pharisees and sadducees of His time. For lack of a better term, yes many refer to Christianity as a religion but in truth it is a way of life. In fact, in the days of the early church shortly after Jesus's crucifixion, burial and resurrection Christianity was referred to by many as "the way". The time is coming when God will hold his people accountable for the religious practices that they have added to the faith that have turned people astray.

 
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