The bible plainly shows that homosexuality is wrong. The Scriptures are thus consistent, not just showing the bad effects of this practice, but also properly condemning what produces those ill effects.
So we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion . . . will possess the kingdom of God.” (The New English Bible) Or, as the verse is paraphrased in The Living Bible: “Homosexuals—will have no share in his kingdom.”
Jehovah God gave us all free will so, this thread does not seek to condemn or condone
In view of the recent Prop (8) decision and the after-math of litigation it does put forth the following question.
The Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because of there sexual behavior. The term Sodomy in fact was taken form the name of one of the cities destroyed, and in today’s legal terminology means to have sexual intercourse either by oral copulation or by rectal penetration.
The Bible narrative at Genesis 19:4, 5 answers:
“The men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: ‘Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them.’”
These men of Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals. In fact, the English word “sodomy,” which particularly means ‘intercourse between two men,’ is drawn from the name of the city of Sodom. The Bible would call their sin por·neía. Jesus said por·neía was so wrong morally that it was a basis for severing the marriage bond.
Further, remember that Jesus was a Jew living under the law of Moses. His use of por·neía, says Edward Robinson’s Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, apparently includes ‘all intercourse interdicted by the Mosaic Law.’ That Law included among its injunctions: “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.” (Lev. 18:22, The Torah, The Five Books of Moses, by the Jewish Publication Society of America) Por·neía, the word used by Jesus, obviously embraced this command of God.
In the face of God’s determination that such behavior is abominable or unacceptable, for those who consider themselves to be true Christians why is there any debate over this matter.
Not with standing the biblical stand on Homosexuality, the hatred, abuse and discrimination other than that prescribed by scripture is not acceptable either.
But the institution of marriage is sanctified and ordained by God, as is defined as a union between a man and a woman, so once again where is the debate.
In fact technically just calling it marriage does not make it a marriage. Even if the authorities recognize it as marriage in the spiritual sense it is exactly what it is. Union between two men or two women.
So we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion . . . will possess the kingdom of God.” (The New English Bible) Or, as the verse is paraphrased in The Living Bible: “Homosexuals—will have no share in his kingdom.”
Romans 1:26, 27, according to The New Testament in Modern English by J. B. Phillips:
“God therefore handed them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged the normal practices of sexual intercourse for something which is abnormal and unnatural. Similarly the men, turning from natural intercourse with women, were swept into lustful passions for one another.”
But thereafter, most importantly, it accurately details the effects of homosexuality:
“Men with men performed these shameful horrors, receiving, of course, in their own personalities the consequences of sexual perversity.”
WHERE DO YOU STAND;
"WHERE DO YOU STAND;" Don't think you should allowed to vote.
The Bible also says that women can't wear pants and that we shouldn't eat pork...
If the US were a country that was run by the Churches then possibly they could legislate who can marry. However, I have always been taught that there is a separation of church and state and that the laws should not be based on what it says in the Bible.
Nature or nurture?
My first experience came when I was 11 years old in North Hollywood. I was stalked by a homosexual for an hour before he approached and enticed me to his apartment. When I figured out what was going on --- I ran after popping the guy one in the face.
That first experience is the ones following in Memphis, Chicago and Virgina convinced me homosexuality is wrong. Any person who targets children to impose a sexual experience should be nutered!
I'm well over fifty now and in my years I have constantly seen homosexuals hunting for"new meat" and new experiences. When homosexuals can stop recruiting STRAIGHT PEOPLE then I might reconsider. But, you know and I know this is not going to happen. Their sexual desire is for new experiences and new conquests. Yes, there may be a few exceptions willing to be mated to one person but I haven't met one yet.
Is homosexuality wrong? Since this is question is raised in the context of the religion forum the simple answer is yes.
BEFORE YOU GO OFF THE DEEP END ( I do have a Doctrate in theology) consider where the Biblical justification for homosexuality came from: Catholic priests who were kicked out for homosexual acts with parishioners. Priests have since the very beginning secretly practiced homosexuality with one another. They only got into trouble when they took it outside the monastery.
We can recite the long list of Biblical sources and those favoring homosexuality can throw back a lot of Biblical source material and in the end it is an argument neither will concede. Consider again who proposed the Biblical justification, it was never a STRAIGHT Theologian but a theologian engaged in homosexual acts.
National Sex Offender Registry. Who woulda thought - all gays.
Here I come You cannot place all Gay and Lesbians into the same pot as many of them are not stalking our children.
Many pedophiles are white and male heterosexual not gay, I can respect how PacWriter feels has he had a very horrible experience and that would scar any child. However we should not be judging others or putting everyone into the same category. That is liking saying that we are all white and we are all murderers, as we know a majority of the murders are committed by white men. Do you see where I am going with this? I respect all gay or straight and I believe we all have better things to do, then to torture others after all WWJD? He wouldn't be judgemental. Or creating Idol gossip and that is what all of us are doing ..
I don't know lets ask nature.... Ohhhhh yeah no!
<snipped hub link>
I'm pretty sure I am aware of how to promote, seeing as how I do it for a living. and that was hardly spam.
Is Jesus judgmental?
Most theological positions that state otherwise are held together with various scatterings of verses. When examining the Four Gospels as a whole and choosing any topic you get a clearer understanding of the topic. To say Jesus is not judgmental is to deny a very large portion of His teachings. Saying, "Joe is a horse" because he neighed like a horse once is ridiculous. Likewise to take a few statements Jesus made and discount an equal number that are contrary is very poor theology.
The God is Love theology is likewise based on selected Scriptures with a predisposition. God's nature is love but book after book of the Bible tells us of a God who gets angry, who judges, condemns, and demands respect. God is like us in that He is not one Dimensional. God creates, He destroys, He builds up, He tears down. He gives life and He takes life.
Before any person demands God or Jesus is this or that they better do their own study and not depend on some theologian. God holds each person accountable and ignorance is not blessed.
Oppression and suppression in the name of the Lord. Got to love it. *sarcasm*
You claim to love God, but you don’t even know him. In spite of the fact that He presents Himself to you daily so you may know Him and His ways.
Some even say that if God does not love everyone and accept even those who commit wicked acts then he shouldn’t be God, and they refuse to recognize him as God.
God is Love, and he loves us all, but he does not Love wicked behavior. He knows that the two can to exist together. Wickedness always seeks to destroy righteousness, because righteousness exposes the truth about wickedness, how ugly it is and how destructive it is.
God says that it is unnatural and obscene to engage in same sex intercourse. In order to prove that point he destroyed two Cities, and had the account passed down so all could read about it.
So you denounce the Bible because it interferes with your will to do as you please. You claim the Bible was written by man, and even if the man was inspired by the Holy Spirit he was still man.
So some kill God, they deny He exists so they have to bear no shame for your wickedness.
God gave us all free will. The only drawback being we can’t claim to be lovers of Christ and pursue un-Godly behavior.
It’s OK for God to exist and you to behave as you please. The only thing is, when the end so this system comes you can’t claim ignorance of God’s presence, and you will have run out of time and hope.
You pursue the darkness because it allows you to do dark things. Satan created the darkness and those who pursue it are blinded to God and his purposes, by choice.
Those who don’t believe don’t have to condemn those who believe and those who believe are forbidden form condemning those who don’t believe..
You see there is always the possibility that those who don’t believe will get to know God and change your ways. True lovers of God and the Christ we are obligated to, not only hold out hope for all, but to share the message of hope.
But you can’t have it both ways.
Free will...the right of a person to do as they please...freedom...the right to be left alone! As long as you are not hurting others, you have, or should have the right to do as you please and be left alone! Two adults wishing to engage in a homosexual relationship and to further commit to that relationship with a marriage contract, should not be denied that right by the state, or by any government. The church, and God, can do as they will, but the people have no business imposing their will on individuals.
When individuals, who practice, behavior that is considered unacceptable make it a point to force their beliefs and practices on others they have to expect some push back.
Homosexuals are determined to force everyone else to accept their practices, and everyone else is saying no to that acceptance; just as loudly or louder.
Who cares what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms? No one. But when they insist
on being front page news their sticking their finger in the eye of what is socially acceptable.
And it's the insistence that we look at what you do and accept it that is being rejected. homosexuality is a personal choice, keep it personal and all is well.
Marriage was created by God, and the Constitutions is formatted on God's law of creation; all men being equal, which most take to mean equal under,Gods Law.
Under God's law Sodom and Gomorrah were both destroyed. Even those who may not have been Homosexual because they turned a blind eye to the behavior. So those who make a verbal stand against same sex marriage are just showing support for God's Law.
But once again if those practicing homosexuality want to be left alone they should quit exploiting the fact that they chose to be different.
Other wise they will be forced to live with the social consequences of their actions.
How are they forcing their beliefs and practices on you exactly?
And where was the original push from? The bible? As you rightly point out - when some one forces their beliefs and practices on you, you should expect some push back.
Demanding that they be allowed to have their union recognized the same as marriage is what I was referring to. God invented marriage and intended it to be between a man and a woman. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because their citizens engaged in Homosexual conduct.
Now on a personal note. they are free to marry their dogs or cats if they so choose and they can call that marriage, as part of the social collective and as far as my spiritual position, I think it makes it harder to bring up children with a proper understanding when the have to watch two men or two women engaged in the same behavior that is considered acceptable for men a and women.
Would you like to have to explain to your child or grandchildren why there are two men kissing in the park, while you're having a family pick-nick or is it better to be forced to stay home because this type of behavior is going on.
So the push back is families wold rather not have their children expose to it. As far as others questioning my position, I think I'm on solid ground with my argument. And so does 60+% of the people in California, and other states where they reject same sex marriages.
I do not understand how this is forcing their beliefs and practices on you.
Seems to me that you are forcing your beliefs and opinions on them? But it is OK - because it says it in the bible.
I have no problem explaining to my children and grandchildren about homosexuals.
Not so sure about the christians though........
I am sorry you are so scared of them that you need to hide their existence from your children and stay home in case they contaminate you in some way.
Do you do the same when there are Jews around, because I seem to remember the bible has a lot to say about them?
Well Mark I see you take exception to my position on the subject. But you've got me all wrong. I do what I do out of love for my brothers and sisters.
I know you've herd that before but just think if one person who is contemplating, becoming a homosexual, reads all we've written about the subject and rejects it then I'm somewhat satisfied. The next step for me would be for them to decide to learn more about what the Bible says about how to enter into the [Kingdom] of heaven.
Not heaven itself but the Kingdom of heaven as it will be known it the new system. All this is Greek to you I'm sure but that's what's on my mind. You do speak Greek though don't you? Oh well.
I have not forgotten about our agreement either, and fully intend to call you on being a man of your word when the UN outlaws false religion.
But no I'm not afraid of running into homosexuals, I prepare by knowing where they hang out and avoiding those places. besides in most cities they are locked up for open displays of affection, you see society as a whole is against the behavior.
As for you grand-children if your children thinks it's OK, then who am I to argue with that. But remember this when this system of things is destroyed, those who practice homosexuality will be destroyed, and I want all my brothers and sisters to live.
Sorry, but we see things very differently. You do not do it out of love for your homosexual brothers and sisters.
The reason they are locked up for their publis displays of physical affection are the same reason heterosexuals are locked up for the same thing
But - we are at odds because you see homosexuality as a choice rather than as a natural occurrence.
Just think of the damage that you are doing to one person who is homosexual, and you manage to persuade him or her that this is evil and get them to deny who they are in favor of your standards.......
You didn't answer my question about the Jews either.
I haven't forgotten about the UN
Sorry about leaving you hanging Mark. I don't have any problem with people of the Jewish ethnic persuasion. or any other ethnic group for that matter. I can trace my ancestry all the way back to Noah, and then to Adam.
Now as far as this natural occurrence thing you speak of. I know people have recessive genes and dominant gene traits but I don't believe any of them to be homosexual markers.
I am as in lighten as any one else but when they started selling that one I tore up my subscription.
With out seeming to offer deceptive flattery I give you credit for being a highly intelligent person. But if you accept as fact that people are born homosexual, your IQ just dropped.
There are a few people who are born with their sexuality in question, some have both sex organs and are subject to having to decide which to choose but other than that.
This is learned behavior. Now if you say a scientist made this discovery I would have to be satisfied that the scientist was not gay or merely pushing a gay agenda based on family ties or monetary gain.
If you were born with a penis you are male, if you are born with a vagina you're female, all after that is personal choice.
Is this part of the belief in evolution?
I do not feel as if I am being forced to accept anything! I certainly will not be forced to accept your beliefs or those of anyone else. I personally don't believe homosexuality is a lifestyle that someone chooses. It does in fact occur in nature. I also submit that if you believe in God, then you must believe that God doesn't make anything bad. Personally, I believe there is good and bad in everything, but the one thing we all share is a right to live free. Now you may be repulsed by homosexuality, and that is certainly your right, no one is forcing you to practice it, and no one should force anyone else to practice your morals and beliefs.
Wait... hold on..
Homosexuals who want equal rights to have the OPTION of marriage (not the word so much as the benefits provided through health care, insurance, private services and the like) are supposed to stop wanting those rights because you and the Bible say they're wicked and wrong under God's Law?
We're supposed to oppress homosexuals because of who they love? Because of their private preferences?
For future reference: I do not claim to love the God of the Christian people. My relationship with the divine is not something you can just disprove or disbelieve because a book a bunch of proselytizing old farts smashed together and then let their kings and other "leaders" edit willy-nilly says there's only one God.
If God is love, and two people (no matter their gender) give themselves to one another in love and forsake all others - then I say let them be wed. Marriage was, for a very very long time, not about love - it was a business transaction (see: Dowries.) We are BLESSED to live in a day and time wherein two people who love one another and want to spend the rest of their lives together can marry for just that reason.
I am not a Profit don't even claim to be. and for my money everyone can believe what the choose. for those Gay people that want to marry so they can share the treasures and health care they have instituted Civil Unions.
God is love and He describes love, that has a sexual component, as that between a man and a woman. But if you have a mind to do other wise remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Now modern day scientist have found the remains of these two cities which confirms the Biblical account.
Those who choose to live out side God's law suffer the consequences that God visits on them. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
And no one said to oppress anyone that's not allowed but neither is trying to force the rest of us to accept Homosexual practices, as a political reality. And to be real about it just saying I do does not make a true marriage as in the way God intended marriage to be.
There is really no debate or argument marriage is defined as the union between a man and a woman. Union between two women or two men is something else other than marriage.
Please read up on civil unions, read my entire post without just disregarding it and repeating Sodom and Gomorrah.
To clarify your talking point, your broken record talking point, there were many reasons these cities were destroyed - blasphemy, lack of compassion, greed, abuse to visitors (guests.) There were FIVE cities destroyed, each for rebuking the bounty God bestowed upon them and turning to vile acts against their brethren. Did you forget everything you read from these passages?
You make your posts here as if to say you speak with the will of God. Has God stepped down from his fluffy clouds and angels and such in Heaven and spoken to you and others who ignorantly argue AGAINST love and said "No homosexuality. Ever."
Don't you think that if hundreds of thousands of people turn IN LOVE to people of their own gender that maybe GOD WANTS IT THAT WAY?
No I don't think that is love G.G. I thinks its being self-indulgent. I think it depicts a lack of self control. I think since you asked me, that the broken record point I continue to make is to be considered, since ot was one of the reason the these cities were destroyed.
Now the questions is do my beliefs on the subject give me the right to discriminate against people who practice this lifestyle? Answer is No. But it does give the moral right to speak against the lifestyle. Voice my opinion, and you are free to object to my position, but if it is true that we are in the end of this system of thing, and fornicators and those who practice homosexuality will not enter into Gods Kingdom. Then who's on solid ground?
Warning - a swear word or two in the song:
Solve the whole problem - Set up Islamic law for all those who oppose being Christian. See how many gays marry then
The world is as God has made it.
That includes those who are unwilling to read, unlearned in their own holy book, and whom base their entire opinion of gay marriage on the aforementioned ignorance lived in by those such as you.
An argument with someone whose sole basis for continuing is to push one point and one point alone is like talking to a rock.
Regardless, I love you and hope someday you enlighten yourself on the whole of that which you attempt to preach.
Like I said I don't discriminate against people who practice the lifestyle. I speak against the lifestyle itself. If you choose a alternative sexual lifestyle you can always choose to reject it, and I love you because I know you are sincere in your belief.
But one last question. If God does destroy this system of things, which is the mirror image of Sodom Gomorrah and the other three cities he destroyed, why would you think that he would spare those who practice the same behavior he destroyed others for?
Or do you think he's going to say, Oh I killed the others but you guys are OK. I think if he did it then He'll do it again.
By the By I visited your profile and I see you're getting married is it a traditional marriage or one of an alternative lifestyle. If so I understand your ire but you are free to choose and I am no one to judge you.
What ever happened to leaving the judgment of "Gay Marriage" up to the alleged creator and the homosexuals in question after they die? "God" forbid if christian theocrats ever did that, because then they might actually be talking out of one side of their mouth. If it is wrong for gays to be actively practicing their homosexual inclinations and even wronger still to indulge them by getting married, then there is certainly nothing wrong with them dieing and receiving "hellfire" if there is indeed a "God" at all that exists.
But alas, the precedent has been set, and it is the same one that the Inquisition setup before it persecuted and caused misery to many, many, people. It is the precedent that state co-ercion is to be preferred in the quest to "encourage" people to accept the truth rather than the eternal fires of hell they might be in danger of if the state and religious people just let them go about their business and account only to "God" alone. So that every man, woman, and child can have their state given rights taken away and be shown the benevolent justice of "God" through the arm of the state that they might just repent before they die....
Afterall it is better to be tortured and have your face mangled, and your thumbs fit with sharp pins and your body set aflame after being given the "pear treatment" than to rot in hell for all eternity...
Thus the terrible precedent of theocracy establishes foothold and slowly creeps forward to it's ultimate goal of ever expansive state controlled co-ercion of peoples' natural rights in the name of "God" so that people will be encouraged through torture to repent of their sins and seek salvation lest they burn in hell for all eternity, for something they were originally told was between "God" and them. So, the self fulfilling prophecy is setting itself up.
It hasn't even been ten years- since torture was publicly allowed and officially established and promoted for "enemy combatants"- and we have already started to fall prey to the same precedent that we have set for our enemies...
Tom Paine was right people, he was dead on.
The next step is to deny them civil unions and come up with a new excuse, once that is done deny them public access to things one by one by one until they are increasingly more miserable and stigmatized. Keep looking away as they are beaten and battered and harassed for what they have "chosen". Keep increasing the xenophobia and slowly boiling the frog until "homosexual" activity in their bedrooms is once more a crime and these people are once more viewed as criminals to be subject to co-erced mental health treatment for their "mental illness".
When will humanity ever learn?
There are consequences for every action. We ask those who choose to be gay to think it through.
In fact you misdirect the conversation by ignoring the fact that Civil Unions are acceptable. In fact if gays prefer to live this life as they do then that's fine by most people. The problem comes in when they seek to have, the right to share health care benefits and other financial advantages married couples have.
So society as it is organized now says No to the idea of Gay unions being classified the same as Heterosexual, Unions. Gays say that hetero's don't have the right to exclude them form being recognized as married couples. Hetero's say that gays do not have the right to force there behavior on there moral beliefs.
If allowing Civil Unions to provide for the benefits that Gay couples desire then the issue should be resolved at that point. But Gays have decided that the original objective is not enough. Now they are insisting their unions to be recognized as lawful marriages.
So if you are searching for acceptance why provoke animosity. If you want respect why disrespect others. All the talk of right and wrong takes away form the real problem. Because you are right if they decide they want Gay then it's their God given to be Gay.
But to poke the people in the eye that believe in the sanctity of marriage and that it is established, as the union between a man and a woman is an attempt to get in societies face and prove that they have power they do not have. People are tired of being forced to accept Gay
If they choose to fight over what is and what is not considered a Marriage then they have to understand that they are fighting 0ver 2000 years of history based on the Bible and deeply rooted religious teachings and beliefs.
I don't have a lot of gay friends but of those I have I have yet to meet one who says he chose to be gay. Without exception they say they came to realize they were gay when they were children or teens. When I was in college a guy on my dorm corridor was seeing a shrink in an effort to become straight. (It didn't work.) All the science I've seen says that homosexuality is genetic and/or pre-nataly determined.
Your unscientific belief is apparently based on faith and literal interpretations of the Bible.
I think your point about marriage's history is flawed. I'm not sure how much you know about the 2,000 years of history you refer to, so forgive me if you've already considered the following:
Prevailing views about marriage have changed dramatically over the last 2,000 years, and so have its legal definitions. It's true that a significant portion of that change was, as you state, "based on the Bible and deeply rooted religious teachings and beliefs." Within this time frame, the (Christian) church has gone through some very dark periods indeed.
Some of the most atrocious examples of large-scale human slaughter were justified in the name of God. Ditto for torture, racism, sexism, repression of new or different beliefs, and tyranny of almost every kind. The definition of marriage has been revised over and over, and there has always been a great deal of resistance.
The trend has been one of gradually softening restrictions and expanding the rights of individuals to marry whomever and however they see fit. From our modern perspective, many of the old traditions seem barbaric. I suspect that no one participating in this thread really wants to see young girls compelled to marry adult men, for example. That's not our tradition, but it was traditional for some of our ancestors when they were alive.
My point is that, as people are given more freedom, it's natural for some to resist, even though their fears about the altered society often turn out to be unfounded. I think I speak for most of us here when I say that the institution of marriage today is morally superior to the form it took just 100 years ago, let alone 2,000 years ago.
Yes, I'm aware that I'm fighting 2,000 years of history. It's a really hard fight, but I think it's the right thing to do.
God created marriage. Now I don't see any proof that God has decided that the basis for marriage should be changed. I also don't see where God approved of man's in humane treatment of his wife.
In fact the only reason God allowed for divorce is because he saw that man commit murder to get ride of an undesired mate. i do agree with some of what you say but the fact still remains, those who openly oppose Gay marriage base their position on the Bible's version of what marriage should be
However my opinion, based on reading the scriptures, as noted in this thread is as I have stated it. If you can change the way others feel about Gay marriage, then good luck in your fight.
As long as you understand why people feel as they do just like you want us to know and understand why you feel as you do.
Hey were just talking here. discussing things that we have opinions about. If they allow you to marry whom ever you choose it won't affect my marriage at all.
But by having this discussion you might change some peoples minds to your side.
Thanks for the debate.
In other words I belong to the minority of people who are [Sane.] The minority of people who truly understand the world they live in as it was meant to be and not according to their selfish desires and misguided notions of what love is not.
Evolution as the concept for mans origin does not hold water, when you look at the different species of animals that exists. But only someone who thinks for themselves would understand that.
You think I should jump off a building because everyone else says it's great. Tell you what I will do. I will wait at the bottom and we can discuss how great it was after you pick yourself up off the ground.
I love people but I hate stupidity. Understanding true love of one's neighbor tells me that if I support a lie then I am no better than the lie itself. You appear to think it's better to be popular, and if being popular means believing in lies then so be it.
Hatred is the father of every lie you believe in, when you repeat these lies you become a slave to them you also enslave the people you tell these lies to, when they accept them as truth, and in the end hatred and lies are what destroy life.
That said I thank you for the complement.
People do not CHOOSE to be gay. You either are, or you're not, or you are living in denial...
You continue to make assumptions regarding civil unions when you know nothing about them.
Where are civil unions legal? What rights are provided, by LAW, to civil unions?
Please do not argue about something that you have no knowledge of. Thanks.
Dear G.G. next time you comment please supply some pertinent information on Civil Unions so that we all can be enlightened.
When you get past the hostility of people defending their personal points of view, this is a public forum that can be used to help others understand different position on different subjects. We can all have are opinions and we can all voice those opinions.
Maybe just, maybe if we discuss these things in a civilized manner we will gain more understanding and tolerance for each.
I have read your comments on this and other subjects Game Girl and watched you passionately defend your opinions. As much as that allows me to know you, I do respect you.
I am not trying to change you mind about your position on this subject, if you do change your mind it will be because that's what you want to do. I am sure when this thread is long forgotten, we will both still feel the same.
But because we are discussing this subject look at all the support you've received for your point of view.
So yes even though I do not personally believe in Gay marriage, I will refrain form offering another opinion on Civil Unions until you have provided, information that spells out, Who What When and Where.
Someone in this thread said, "When will humanity ever learn?"
I ask the same question.
Even if we look back at the past of America only, we see that history repeats itself over and over again. Originally it was "fact" that black people were inferior and worth only 3/5 of a person. We now collectively remember slavery as a shameful chapter in history, when people were ignorant. Now we know that all races are born equal.
Originally it was "fact" that women were inferior to men. They weren't born smart enough to vote, own property, make legal decisions. Now we know that all genders are equal in intelligence.
Originally it was "fact" that Jews were the scum of the earth and deserved to be banished or killed because of their religious beliefs. Now we know that these were undeserved stereotypes and don't put people in jail because their last name is "Goldberg."
We continue to repeat our mistakes. One day we will look back at our intolerance, and this chapter, too, will become a shameful one in American history. Because someone is a minority does not mean that they are somehow inferior or deserve fewer rights. I'm embarrassed that America has yet to realize that we are blindly prejudiced once again.
Since this forum is the one for Religion and not Politics, I would say that the legal arguments tend to favor marriage equality but those can be explored in that forum.
As for the religious/moral reasons, I would say they also favor the right to marriage to gay/lesbian couples.
1. Gay people do not choose to be gay. Speaking as a gay person myself, I can tell you my fundamental orientation has been with me ever since I can remember. Straight people that insist people choose to be gay can not provide one reasonable argument about why someone would choose to be gay. If it were a choice, everyone would choose to be straight.
2. Marriage is an important institution because it strengthens bonds between people, merges families, encourages interdependence and selflessness. These are true whether or not the people entering into marriage are of opposite sex or the same sex.
3. While it's true most marriages result in procreation, not all do. Marriages between infertile couples and those with a post-menopausal woman happen all the time, as do marriages where the couple has chosen not to have children (or to adopt them, instead). I don't hear any argument against these couples entering into marriage, probably because society stands to benefit from such a union regardless (see #2).
4. Since the institution of marriage is being torn asunder by divorce, in higher proportion by Christian evangelicals, it would make sense to include more people that take the institution seriously enough to want to fight for it. There's a difference between paying lip service to traditional marriage, and actually taking it seriously.
The claim that one "chooses" to be homosexual has always been bizarre to me. I didn't "choose" to be heterosexual, I just am. Nor did I "choose" who I fell in love with, I just did. I can't see any reason in the world why homosexuals and bisexuals would be any different, and in fact, if my group of friends (LGBT and straight alike) is any basis to judge, they aren't.
I agree with the rest of your points as well.
gamergirl, I found the following to be a useful starting point to learn about the legal differences between civil unions and marriage: http://lesbianlife.about.com//cs/weddin … rriage.htm
In short, as civil unions are currently defined, separate is most definitely NOT equal.
You're wrong about virtues of Christianity
And you're wrong if you agree with Sean Hannity
If you think that pride is about nationality, you're wrong
You're wrong when you imprison people turning tricks
And you're wrong about trickle down economics
If you think that punk rock doesn't mix with politics, you're wrong
You're wrong for hating queers and eating steers
If you kill for the thrill of the hunt
You're wrong 'bout wearing fur and not hating Ann Coulter
Cause she's a cunted cunt
You're wrong if you celebrate Columbus Day
And You're wrong if you think there will be a Judgement Day
If you're a charter member of the NRA, you're wrong
You're wrong if you support capital punishment
And you're wrong if you don't question your government
If you think her reproductive rights are inconsequent, you're wrong
You're wrong fighting Jihad, your blind faith in God
Your religions are all flawed,
You're wrong about drug use, when its not abuse
I hope you never reproduce
You're getting high on the downlow
A victim of Cointelpro
You're wrong and will probably never know
"As for the religious/moral reasons, I would say they also favor the right to marriage to gay/lesbian couples."
The problem with most churches and 'gay/lesbian' - is the churches use a single source authority, book of the lord. The father in the family is the cop, judge and jury, that is suppose to be the last word and final authority in the family, and he must be obeyed. Two opinions as father/mother is anarchy to them, and
gay/lesbian: whose the father figure, whose the mother figure? This - it would be guessed, would be just too confusing for these and this system.
Although I have been watching this debate unfold here I have stayed out of it until now because as a straight guy, I felt that I have no right to get involved in something that doesn't affect me in my daily life.
I realise now though that it does involve me and every other person on this planet because like you and me gays (for want of a better word) whether they be male or female are human too, as human beings they should have the same rights and respect as any other human being.
What right have I or anyone for that matter to say that same sex marriage is wrong if two people are in love then why should they not be allowed to be together legaly in marriage.
The Bible is a book which contradicts itself on almost every page turn and it sends out which ever message that the person reading it wants to see in their own mind.
If two people love each other male-female, male-male or female-female they should be allowed to marry. my own marriage is not recognised by the church because my wife and I married in a registrary office but we are married in the eyes of the law, you dont need religion to enter into a legal marriage, a legal marriage does not need a church, it needs draconian laws to be revised in countries all over the world people of any sexual orientation should be allowed to marry. in the simple words of the Bible "Judge Not Lest Ye Also Be Judged"
my two cents.....jimmy
Well said, Jimmy. My parent's couldn't marry in the church either because my mother was raised Catholic and my father wasn't. However...my mother's sister also married a non-Catholic but because he had money and influence they were allowed to marry in the church...
Thanks kerryg - I actually use that link as a reference point, and am hoping that the long period of time between the last set of responses means that maybe - just maybe - Jeromeo is actually trying to educate himself on the very things which he is trying to claim are an "equal" replacement for marriage - socially, economically, etcetera. I asked those questions in the hopes that Jeromeo would attempt to find the answers. Let's hope he visits that link.
OK, I have visited the link, and found that enough of what I said was true for me to continue to support my position. That's the bad news. Good news...isn't it nice for you to know that everyone that visits this thread is getting a good look at what you have to live with. And it appears the majority are taking a stand for you.
I noticed while I was reading, it said that an attorney could set up certain papers for legal recognition. However it was marginalized by the statement, that it cost a lot of money to do so.
This is the type of travesty I'm talking about when I speak of avoiding conflict. There are ways to draft and file these same legal papers for yourself. And all you will be out of is the filing fees.
So which is going to be better, for you. To frustrate yourself by feeling left out, or to actually read the laws that govern the state you reside in and take serious steps to legalize your relationship, and protect the assets and other rights you fear loosing.
Most cities have libraries that contain annotated versions of State laws, there you can find what you may need to re-enforce your Civil Union.
Or you can continue to curse the darkness and everyone that does not believe in your position on this subject.
Like I said we can do this with out hostility and name calling and being judgmental on either side. As a Personal Spiritual, matter, I can not accept Gay and Lesbian relationships as natural or worthy of legal protection. You choose not to believe in the Bible because it does not support your point of view.
Since you've made up your mind you have made the decision for God on whether you should live forever or not. That's all.
I read the link, here's something for you to read
Never Compromising on Christian Principles ***
There are two forces operating toward all persons. One is passion, which is induced by the influence of others upon the person that is influenced, and the second is principle or law, that is, God’s law or rule of action prescribing the way that is right and proper. Those who are devoted to Jehovah are governed by his law and follow his commandments based on principles of truth. So, then, to be governed by principle means to act upon the knowledge of the facts according to reason and conscience. To be governed by passion means to act because of outside influence, to let personal considerations dictate, such as wealth, fame, power, safety, or gratifications of the senses or instincts.
Note two principles set out here: those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit God’s kingdom; those who are Christians do not do those works. The Christians want to live under God’s government; therefore they must stick to right principles. That is why Peter forcefully advised at 1 Peter 2:11, 12 (NW): “Beloved, I exhort you as aliens and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which are the very ones that carry on a conflict against the soul. Maintain your conduct right among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against you as evildoers, they may as a result of your right works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for his inspection.” The right course taken by Christians brings praise to Jehovah in the eyes of the men of good will, but not in the eyes of the world. In this system of things it costs something to follow principles. It means loving the truth even though it is unpopular. It means fearing God, not man. It means hating unjust gain, not going after it. These are the qualities Jehovah looks for in those who will serve him in the new world.—Ex. 18:21; Prov. 29:25.
I can love you as a person and still hate your behavior. It would also be wrong for me to persecute you, picket your home place of business, make harassing phone calls and things on that nature.
From where I sit it seems that Gays want to persecute straight people for their beliefs. Lets find common ground on this issue and maybe we can get together and solve, other issues that threaten us as humans.
*points to kerryg's post* Though some of the information is out of date (such as no update on Prop 8 or other amendments/motions like Prop 8) you can CLEARLY see the differences there.
Please visit that link before you wave the banner of "civil unions are equal to marriage" again.
Just because I happen to take offense at your idle method of "The Bible says it's wrong so it is" in explaining away the right of all people to be treated equal, does not mean we are not speaking civilly. Just because you don't read my posts in full, or at least acknowledge in your responses that you've read the words I typed - as sometimes it appears you see a response, pluck out a single statement to hang on and then repeat your own "argument" - doesn't mean we're not being civil.
I have served in this country's military. I have, in as much as I am capable, protected those I love from injustices and unkindnesses. I will continue to do so, even obliquely as through a forum where intolerance and inequality are being heralded as the one true way by some.
Except in those cases where it may, and I certainly hope not, cause some poor soul to harm themselves, I have no reason to apologize for my position. I served in the military to. It does not make me infinitely right or wrong.
I mentioned civil so that any and all reading this thread can understand the spirit in which the initial question was asked, The invitation is to approach this issue form an intellectual, and Spiritual point.
And answer the question form either of those perspectives.
I don't think you actually understood what you read, Jeromeo.
Here's the part that I found most important:
Civil Unions exist in only a handful of places: Vermont, New Jersey and Connecticut.
The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
But can’t a lawyer set all this up for gay and lesbian couples?
No. A lawyer can set up some things like durable power of attorney, wills and medical power of attorney. There are several problems with this, however.
1. It costs thousands of dollars in legal fees. A simple marriage license, which usually costs under $100 would cover all the same rights and benefits.
2. Any of these can be challenged in court. As a matter of fact, more wills are challenged than not. In the case of wills, legal spouses always have more legal power than any other family member.
3. Marriage laws are universal. If someone’s husband or wife is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, "He's my husband," you will immediately be taken to your spouse's side.
Creating Civil Unions creates a separate and unequal status for some of America’s citizens. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial court ruled that creating a separate class for gay and lesbian citizens is not permissible and that is why they have voted that only marriage equals marriage. The precedent was set with Brown v. The Board of Education regarding segregation in public education. Ironically, Massachusetts marriage law went into effect on the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education.
So you see - civil unions are not marriages. Civil unions cover SOME of the 1,049 benefits marriages received based on information that is 11 years old - surely there are hundreds more benefits presented to married couples nowadays.
I choose not to believe in the Bible not because of it's opposition to my personal spiritual point of view, but because it is a chauvanistic, misogynistic work of fiction on which so much intolerant and inhumane behavior is based, even here in this thread. I am not subject to anything but the consequences for my actions in this life - not the perception you or any other person has on my life, but my own moral and ethical consequences. If the consequence for fighting for equality for all people, gay, heterosexual or other, is that you think I'll burn in Hell, then hand me the aloe vera, I'm going to need it.
Equality for all - anything else is injustice and immorality.
You won't need aloe Vera, there is no burning hell for non believers only death. Like I said I still feel the same but I am more sympathetic to your position. Your mind is made up that gay men and lesbians should be allowed to marry and do the same things hetero's do
You are wrong about the Bible, but I'm going to leave that alone. To some of us the answer to the original question is always going to be Gay marriage is wrong to thers it's is always going to be gay marriage is right.
The more you understand about why a person feels and believes the way they do, the easier it is to obey the spiritual admonition to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
I am a para legal and I can tell you first hand you can file papers and implement protection for your way of life that can not be challenged.
Thanks for a healthy debate. And best wishes.
The whole point of the article was that no, in fact, you can't, in most cases, and even if you can, it works only in the states where the civil union is recognized. In most cases, that means ONE state.
Even if filing the paperwork yourself will save you expensive legal fees, it still leaves you with a mountain of complicated paperwork plus filing fees to get far fewer and far more tenuous rights than straight couples can get with a single ~$100 document that is routinely filed correctly by people too drunk to walk straight in Las Vegas.
This is equal by no definition of the term. Nor is it fair.
I've read that Abraham was born in 2167 BC. Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah before God destroyed them. So the history is twice as old as Christianity.
Jeromeo, my dear friend, I love you regardless of our differences but I must state:
As a Jehovahas witness as prescribed in the bible that we are to obey the laws of the government even when we disagree.
While personal opinions might complicate matters of passion, I am advised to believe that these principals of "passion" are considered from both sides.
Even if the laws of God suggest that being gay is an abomination...let those who are gay, by nature, be in a willful marriage to their partner.
As we had discussed before on a more personal note, these people do not decide to be gay on there own free will, making them feel bad about how their inner feelings reflect upon the nature of what seems normal causes them great pain.
God would not by any mean want his children to suffer. If it is like the bible explains and these people are not acceptable, then let them have their life here. Please.
This then is there only chance for happiness, let them have it. We may go through life suffering and be blessed with eternal life and happiness, but maybe they wont, they have chosen, so let them have their life.
It belongs to them, to to anyone else. being gay will not cause other people to be gay. Think about it please. If someone said you must be gay, would you under any circumstances consider yourself gay if you naturally insisted that a women felt more natural to you? Wouldn't you feel slightly upset at they way people would treat you because hypothetically speaking, if this world were gay, then wouldn't you feel strange and upset and feel outcast for being attracted to the opposite sex.?
further, in the bible the parterner to Adam was eve as a helper, not a sexual partner.
Later in the the Bible, it is suggested that it is an abomonation that a man lay with a man as a women, is an abomination, while eary in the bible, this is not the case.
I am asking you to put aside your personal feeling when it comes to homosexuality and look at the human inside. I will not be blessed with eternal life, and you hate that but nothing will change the way you feel right?
It is how they are, love them and accept them also as people of God because God was niether male or female. God loves them for being honest, not liars. Being gay is not a crime. It just isn't.
If it is by God, then let God hurt them if he choses not us, not you, not the church, it is not for us to decide. Let them have their happiness at least in this life.
It is not so much to ask. Maybe you will be blessed with eternal life and happiness for being obedient to the faith that you have, but these people, for the love of a brother, these people also deserve some happiness, please let them be happy here.
Cannot you understand Jeromeo? Let them have their time here, everyone deserves to be happy at least once. Don't let them be dambed here and then again. It is not fair and it does not speak softley to God in compassion for our fellow man to allow their unhappiness despite the differences.
No I am not gay, no I do not believe that God would punish them for the way that they were made, and no I do not believe that allowing them a marriage will do anything other then help the world become a better place by removing hate and amnisty between what religions teach, and the nature of human beings.
Love them for who they are, not what the are not. Please, it will not effect you and your possition with God and God will understand why you chose to go against his will. He will understand and I know he will. God never wants to see his children suffer and gay people, believe it or not are Gods too.
Don't treat them as anything less then your brother. They deserve this. They really do. Please.
If you read my last comment in answer to Game Girl's request for more understanding on my part you will see that I am not in persecution of the Gay life style.
My personal beliefs aside everyone has the right to believe as he or she wishes and I can't take that away form them so you have your pela for our brother and sisters with out asking.
But the Bible encourages us to obey the laws of man only until they contradict he laws of God.
But you are right how can my brother or sister know I love them if I am unyielding in my acceptance of their right to life.
So I am adjusting the stride of my tone to show tht i am not trying to out rightly condemn those who walk a different path than I do.
So thanks for the heads-up feel free to correct me at anytime-two heads are always better than one.
I don't want anyone coming to harm as a result of my facilitating a good debate. Live and let live.
As we read and right on the hubpages lets all keep this in mind. We come together as a community to debate and discuss matters and issues that we are concerned about, in the hope of enlightening ourselves and others.
In hosting this thread I have learn a very valuable lesson. Now I will share with all of you who offered friendly advice what you have done for me.
The question was whether Gay marriage was right or wrong, at least that's how it started out. After hubbers started to weigh in, the real question became: When do we become guilty of judging our neghbors.
If I never understood it before I understand it now. We become guilty of judging others when we presume to tell them what they [Can] and [Can Not] do.
If their activities and thoughts do not affect us personally or have a negative impact on our daily lives, then we may want to mind our own business when it comes to making serious decisions,and comments that may make life harder for them.
To Game Girl, Mark Knowels, Sandra Rinck, Sterling Sage, Papa Blues, and others who entered this thread with an open mind and an open heart, thanks for the enlightenment.
Though my basic beliefs remain the same, I do realize that, only those who live the life style can determine whether their actions are acceptable or not for themselves. The rest of us only have the right to decide for ourselves what type of lives we choose to lead.
Adding to the burden of life and the daily struggle of others only makes us cruel and hateful, I choose not to be that way.
To all who participated in this thread, thanks for attending this debate.
Once again to those who loved me enough to correct me,
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