Evil

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Claire Evansposted 12 years ago
Is Satanism or the Abrahamic religions, i.e, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the root of evil in the world?
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  davenmidtownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The root of evil comes from within the hearts of man. It is the world that provides the temptations but it is always the choice of man on how he/she will accept the temptation. Do we strike out in anger? Do we do harm? The religions that you have listed provide a path for both answers... but again... that path is the choice of man.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religions poison everything, more specifically, the Abrahamic religions. And, although they may not be the root of ALL evil in the world, they comprise the vast majority as they have shaped and molded mankind's thoughts and actions for centuries.
  
  Without those religions, we may very well find other evils, but we would rid the world of the greatest of all evils proportionally to the number of believers who embrace them.
  
  And, if we do find other evils that control the thoughts of men the way the Abrahamic religions do, we would be best to rid ourselves of those as well.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some people, I have noticed, look at religions through tinted glasses and see only poison. They choose to view religions in a dim, filtered light so they will see just enough to justify their narrow notions. It is not surprising that they see only what they want to see.
  
  Others, I have noticed, are able to look upon religions and see that they have contributed both good and bad in the world. Ambitious men have used religion as a tool to sway people, gain power and keep power. Many people have done hideous things in the name of religion but religion itself is only a tool. As such, it can be both constructive and destructive.
  
  In our digital world, this moment is distinctly different from the one just passed and the one soon to arrive. Religion, however, offers an analog vision of reality that acknowledges relationships: people as bothers and sisters in the human family; patterns that add levels of meanings to both the material world and human life; the transition from then, to now, and to the future. Religion often speaks of life as a journey thereby linking the context of “now” with how far we have come and, perhaps, more importantly, to where we are going.
  
  Religion encourages a sense of local community that provides an environment in which human relationships can flourish. Religion makes massive contributions to the common good of society on a whole through charitable activities and social actions. It feeds the hungry, heals the sick, comforts the dying; it gives care and refuge to the needy. Religion adds other perspectives to social issues that often serve the common good.
  
  The extent of faith based initiatives, like soup kitchens, shelters, clinics, food pantries, psychiatric centers, schools, etc., far exceeds the best efforts of non-religious groups. Some atheists place very little value on feeding and serving the needy. An article titled “Do we need Atheist soup kitchens?” on the web site furiouspurpose.me offers this excuse, ”the fact that we support gender equality and women’s rights, is in my view much more important, and sends a much better and clearer message, than serving pea & ham soup at Chez Dawky.”
  
  It is sad some see only the bad in religions and deny the good. I can understand how some troubled men are incapable of understanding intangible religious teachings like faith, hope, and charity. I just do not yet understand why they think this disability makes them superior.
  
  (1) http://furiouspurpose.me/do-we-need-ath … -kitchens/
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Always good to read your words sir! Very clear cut and effective.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  QG that has to be one of the most eloquent rebuttals to fundamentalist atheism I've seen on these forums ever. Well said that man
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bullocks. Of course, believers will say anything to defend their faiths, however one only need look at recent developments with Obama's moves on abortion to see the mind-boggling stupidity the religiously brainwashed are spouting, comparing him to Hitler and the US a Nazi state, claiming there is a war on religion and how these idiots state they would rather die for their convictions. Even Santorum and Gingrich are stateing we should be following "Gods laws".
  
  This is not human nature, this is religion brainwashing people to say and do very stupid things.
  
  This is what we actually see, not what we want to see.
  
  There is nothing constructive about religions. We can do anything constructive without the need of religious fantasies involved.
  
  Pure gobbledegook and utterly false. Religions only serve to divide us and only contribute if they can gain converts. Selfishness is at the core of religions.
  
  Completely false and dishonest statements.
  
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are a bundle of joy today aren't you ATM.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't pleasant when folks have to lie all the time to defend the very same faith that makes them lie.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's a bit harsh. Someone believes something. Doesn't mean their lying.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is when they continue to argue their beliefs in light of facts and reality. Believing and then admitting it's just a belief based on faith would just be delusion.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hi Troubled. I thank you for your interest in my post and for drafting a reply. I believe you have some good reasons for believing as you do and I hope you will share them us here in this forum. I am anxcious to learn from you.
  
  You respond, “bullocks?" Do you think my opinions are a knee-jerk attempt to defend another person’s faith? Your first sentence, like many in your reply, is a false assumption that exhibits a propensity to view your perceptions as more valuable than open-minded research aimed at finding meaningful facts. You see, ATM, I do not practice a religion and I do not have faith. Therefore, I am not a religious person who will say anything to defend my faith.
  
  I do, however, use my intellect to examine religions and I find that they have contributed both good and bad in the world. Others, with a limited understanding of human nature, take events they consider “stupid” and use them to form opinions that ignore other examples of how religions have made positive contributions. I would call that seeing only what you want to see. For example,
  Like many rational observers, I see some of the good aspects of religion. Some folks are so passionately opposed to “religious fantasies” that they can not admit, even to themselves, that those “religious fantasies” might also be doing some good in the world. Denying the good makes it easier to attack religion. A more reasonable stance might acknowledge all of the good things produced by religions and also provide sound, grounded evidence, beyond personal opinion, to identify the weaknesses inherent in “religious fantasies.”
  
  When I listed how religions contribute to the common good of society, your very unscientific reply was…
  Here is a quote from the Hoover Institution at Stanford University: “ Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.” (1)
  
  It would seem the source of my “pure gobbledygook and utterly false” claim is a scholarly study. Please examine it and comment if you are so inclined. Will you also give us an opportunity to see and comment on the source of your “pure gobbledygook and utterly false” claims?
  
  Do you also have a problem with my final statement? You replied with: “.“ A smiley face strikes me as a poor substitute for an intellegent response, especially in a dialog between rational adults. What do you think? Please tell us why you think as you do so we can all learn something here.
  
  Thank you, again, Troubled, for your comments. I am looking forward to reading your first hub.
  
  (1) http://www.hoover.org/publications/poli … ticle/6577
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your figures are a little misleading. 91% opposed to 66%, but those figures drop to 71% and 61% when the "giving" is for non-religious use. Meaning that a good portion of the religious giving is to maintain their church, pastor, etc.
  
  I didn't find a sample size or methodology, but I wonder if the numbers 71 and 61 are even significant - that isn't a large difference in a small sample.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am very grateful, Wilderness, for your "contribution." I agree with your observation and its impact.
  
  The data reveal a link between charitable giving and religions that has a positive effect on society. In the words of Dr. Brooks, "It seems fair to say that religion engenders charity in general - including nonreligious charity."
  
  I thank you for adding to the discussion.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religions don't contribute anything good that couldn't be contributed without them. I'd be happy to hear anyone provide examples of what religions have contributed that could not have been contributed without them?
  
  Such as...?
  
  So, because religions have been the root of so man problems in the world, religious people are more apt to contribute monies in order to help solve those very same problems the created. Hilarious logic there.
  
  And, where exactly do secularists NOT donate monies, to religious organizations, perhaps? Do those figures take into account per capita or the fact that many atheists don't state they're atheists for fear of retribution from believers? Are atheist organizations allowed to run "tax free" like religious organizations?
  
  What about this very long list of secular charity organizations? Are they in your figures?
  
  http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities
  
  No, it would appear you have missed a great deal of 'study' in your response.
  
  But, it's perfectly acceptable for you to insult me with my userid and then say I have a disability...
  
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  nasakeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can i just point out that it is human nature to kill in order to gain selfish ideals... yeah, religion has taught nothing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? And, you find all humans are out to kill you any chance they get because it is in their nature to do so. Hilarious.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  berkley, harvard and yale universities were started by religion. Hospitals depicting names of saints were started by religion.
  
  Say what he will, those narrow glasses have got him where he is today.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You see, believers will say anything to defend their faith.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  you do
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol
  
  You know this is very true. I've noticed that many atheists will go to the nearest page on the Internet to support their views without checking if the sources are sound. They regurgitate the same Zeitgeist nonsense and when refuted, they say, "But they still existed before Jesus, the concept is the same".
  
  If this is not saying anything to justify their viewpoint, I don't know what is.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said. How long did it take you to come up with that very clever and well though out response? Or, should I say childish, kindergarten playground response.
  
  I know you are, but what am I?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ****************************
  
  Could you give me an example of this? And if possible some proof as to why you think this.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good one!
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  fpherj48posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is no ONE root to ALL evil. It would be foolish to even think this. Evil begins and ends with Man....the rational-thinking of all animals. What contributes to creating evil in man? This would require a Volume of tomes, without a doubt.
  Radical beliefs and behaviors in ANY so-called "religion" has clearly made man evil....murderers, thieves, dictators, insane behaviors....all in the neam of religion/God? OK. As soon as we all subject ourselves to full lobotomies, I guess we'll swallow that radical crap and act nutty too.
  Small-minded or worse, closed-minded individuals( or groups) who insist on focusing their entire being onto ONE History book (Bible, Koran, or any other book written by any human claiming to be "inspired" by Higher powers), demanding that ALL people believe ONE tenet for ONE reason/purpose, choose to blind, bind and force another to BE! DO! BELIEVE! ACT! SPEAK!! as they think it has to be...because it is the ONLY way.......well, they're simply the brain-damaged, mis-informed, easily lead, bent and molded. Entertaining at best....Dangerous at their worst.
  Evil? It's this sort of ignorance, intolerance, hatred and violence. That's where most evil begins, festers and continues.
  Why do you ask such a question, Clare? You wouldn't be itching to start another sensless, ludicrous, useless debate about your RELIGION again, now would you? Save yourself, Clare and please.....spare the rest of us. Time you fold up your soap box and find another mission in life.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse me, you didn't have to visit this forum where I posted my question. You did that out of your own volition. I can debate about whatever I want pertaining to religion. Why are you getting so hysterical? It is so unnecessary. You are very much welcome to leave the forum if it offends you so much.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure you fully understand the definition of the word hysterical? I've seen you use it out of context several times now.
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  Cassie Smithposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Clair, you're really much better off ignoring hubbers like her. You have every right to post whatever topic you want to post about.
  
  As for your question about evil. I feel it can come from within and it can come from without. There's a lot more that needs to be looked at.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It could be argued that the United States has air superiority in cases because of stealth aircraft like the F117. On missions they will fly low and slow. They fly slow because this reduces their radar signature. The more speed=more engine which equals a higher radar profile. Plus it has other design features that make it stealthy. The reason why it is effective is because it doesnt exist on enemy radar.
  
  If there was some supra-natural evil force It wouldn't be unreasonable that they would be using stealth. Like the f117 they would still be operating amongst us but we would be unaware of it to certain varying degree. If they were "existing" on a lower plane of reality ie or eg a one dimensional or two dimensional reality or possibly a multiple or near infinite dimensional reality, they wouldn't be residing in our reality per se and so by their very nature they would be hard to detect. It would be possible however to "reason" that we could possibly detect strategies, tactics, motive or intentions.
  
  Recapping- if a lesser dimensional intelligence was intentionally using stealth it would be very easy to say they do not exist, wouldnt it.
  
  This by no means would excuse individual human culpability, however. But would it explain what we see in the world?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You lost me on that one. Are you saying that Lockheed is an agent of Lucifer?
  
  Or was that just a round about way of saying our defense contractors stole technology from hell?
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What I am saying is that dismissive claims, one claim or another are unfounded.
  
  A radar operator would not be so naive to think that since there are no blips on his radar, that it proves that no enemy aircraft exist, nor if they are even flying right over his radar installation.
  
  Every night I hear what sounds to be coyotes yapping. Sounds like dozens of them, yet I have only seen 2 or 3 in 40+ years. Coyotes are less intelligent than humans, I am assuming, yet by their nature, they are very stealthy. So, successful covert capabilities do not necessitate high intelligence.
  
  The question remains; are humans being influenced by evil in the form of some outside entity. Claims of "they are" or "no they arent" would need to be supported with some kind of argument, for or against as opposed to reductio ad ridiculum or appeal to emotion, strawman or what have you.
  
  F117's flying over head is stupid, since I do not see them on my screen. Or F117's are just "magic thinking" because I have the best radar and I am an intelligent radar operator. No? Later these same stealthy F117's main job was to destroy radar installations, making all further operations possible, without the need to be as stealthy.
  
  So, thats what I would be my approach to looking for as far as evidence or an argument. Does it seem that there is something outside trying to limit detection capabilities? Or does it look like a possible concerted effort to undermine anyone that suggests that it could be happening or destroy credibility of anyone that would simply inquire?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I get what you are saying, but I see conversations that blame evil on 'satan' no less trifling than having someone tell me they aren't responsible for their behavior because they have an addiction.
  
  Transferring blame is at epidemic proportions in our world. If you do something wrong.....it's your fault. End of the line. That goes for everyone. There is no spiritual force that twisted your arm to do it.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet I had already prefaced my statements with "This by no means would excuse individual human culpability"
  
  meanwhile your argument falls into this category does it not?
  
  Does it seem that there is something outside trying to limit detection capabilities? Or does it look like a possible concerted effort to undermine anyone that suggests that it could be happening or destroy credibility of anyone that would simply inquire?
  
  When you say: "There is no spiritual force that twisted your arm to do it."
  
  You dont offer proof of that claim. But it does appear that you are making an emotional appeal to lay blame on humans (which would be accurate) yet use that emotional appeal to negate the possibility of an outside entity without proof.
  
  Correct?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. I wouldn't classify it as an emotional appeal. Am I missing something? Take responsibility for your own actions seems pretty straight forward from where I'm standing.
  
  I tend to side with the atheists. You say 'show proof'. If something has never been proven to exist.....that's proof enough for me. Would you ask the same if I said dragons do not exist?
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lack of evidence is not evidence.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are exactly right. That condemns both sides of the argument to idle speculation. Don't you think?
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your rebuttals are making my arguments for me.
  
  We should condemn just speculating sounds like an effort by the hypothectical to evade detection doesnt it?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. Unless you have a need to believe. That's not intended to make light of your argument.
  
  I think my point is that belief in something like the devil, with no evidence, does more harm than good. It's a convenient scape goat. An excuse. I respect those who take responsibility much more than those who claim Satan exists. For that very reason. Because they take responsibility. If Satan exists, as you are arguing might be possible, he's not tripping them up. What is the problem with the others? They are still responsible for their actions....but not taking responsibility. So, it doesn't really matter if there is evil on another plane. It's a moot point. Imo.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A good case for Satan not existing at all is that in all cases in the bible where God's punishment was executed, it is always upon the individual. That is God never says "there there, I know it wasn't you, it was that big bad devil bade you do it". Therefore if God always holds the individual accountable with absolutely no acknowledgement of a Saran, then that's proof that God doesn't believe Satan exist either.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Makes perfect sense to me.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you considered God's servant Job?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  With regards to "have you seen my servant Job", in Judaism (for it was for Israel Job was written) Satan is not some rebellious being independent of God. Satan is a generic term for any angel from the throne room whom God commissions to go and test Israel. So this Satan in Job was God's faithful servant.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Before you said that satan didnt exist at all now you are saying that he does but was just following God's orders?
  
  God specifically cursed satan (the serpent) in the garden for deceiving or beguiling Eve. God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, Cursed are you. Now this did not absolve Eve however,"To the woman God said, "I will greatly increase your pains".
  
  Regardless if Christians view the serpent as satan in the story, or Judaism teaches something else, we can see that an entity of some sort used deception or beguiled another to do what was considered wrong.
  
  All of which is still a non sequitor because the culpability of one doesn't mean that by default something else does not exist.
  
  If I throw a rock through a window, doesn't mean that some organism on some moon somewhere suddenly ceases to exist, it just means I threw a rock through a window and that is all.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @ Pheonix
  
  Satan as believed by the Church as some arch fiend of God thrown out of heaven does not exist. Satan as a generic Hebrew term for accuser or one who opposes is understood in Judaism to be a faithful servant of God commissioned for that purpose of testing Israel. See Numbers 22:22 where the angel of the lord is a satan in a Hebrew bible for example.
  
  The Church's Satan does not appear in Genesis at all, he simply doesn't get a mention. The serpent is a picture of the 'yetzer hara' or evil inclination within each of us to sin. Eve was having an inner conflict, she was talking to herself.
  
  To unstandardised the Hebrew scriptures, we must study Judaism as they were written for Israel not a western gentile mindset and culture. The Church since the 3rd century abandoned the Jewish perspective and made up its own interpretations, which have stuck until now.
  
  If you threw a rock through the window, you did it, you thought up the idea, no Satan enticed you to do it.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  __________________________________________________________
  
  I find it convenient that you would choose to completely dismiss the New Testament entirely to debate the matter, but it's more than convenient for me because I am well versed in the Tanakh as well as the New Testament. All my replies will now be based and supported by the Tanakh- According to the Masoretic Text.
  
  I will not debate the various opinions of Rabbis, but I will say this: When you said - "The serpent is a picture of the "yetzer hara". You seem to misunderstand that many Rabbis would say that " yetzer hara" was not even possible until and after Eve ate from the tree. They did not have that capacity until after being beguiled. Understand? When you claim- The serpent is a picture of the "yetzer hara" you have a major problem regarding continuity of text.
  
  There is no scriptural support to equate yetzer hara with the serpent.
  You are retroactively trying to apply yetzer hara which means "the imagination of the thoughts of the heart to do evil" as opposed to simply "adversary"
  
  And then later, below, the LORD rebukes quote "O Satan". Which for me denotes two things: First he is a different entity and not an idiom. He has a physical location eg "standing at his right hand" and now what looks to me a way of being referenced to, that's usually reserved for God Himself - "O Satan".
  
  3 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
  ב וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-הַשָּׂטָן, יִגְעַר יְהוָה בְּךָ הַשָּׂטָן, וְיִגְעַר יְהוָה בְּךָ, הַבֹּחֵר בִּירוּשָׁלִָם; הֲלוֹא זֶה אוּד, מֻצָּל מֵאֵשׁ.
  
  And the LORD said unto Satan: 'The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan, yea, the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?'
  
  Also in the story of Job you will see the personality of a being that would "gamble with God" and actually believes that the only reason Job is faithful is because the material wealth and prosperity that he enjoys and not because of any reason, such as love for God and faith in God. This is quite a glimpse into his character and cannot be explained away in a oversimplified and erroneously applied idiom. There is character, motivation, intent and action.
  
  Furthermore we have fallen angels the watchers, that took human wives. So there is definitely a case of supernatural beings of some kind "intimately" getting involved in the affairs of men, with puns intended.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  **************************************
  
  Maybe I have misunderstood you and I'm not here to debate this but..........
  
  I am Jewish by religion and I disagree about Adam and Eve not being capable of yetzer hara until they ate from the tree.
  
  Yetzer hara is an innate desire to give pleasure to the flesh.
  Yetzer hara is not the inclination to do evil, they did not know good and evil until after they “ate from the tree” (if that's what you want to call it)
  Knowing and doing evil is what they didn’t know they were capable of,
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @Pheonix,
  The New Testament is not scripture. When Paul said to Timothy that all scripture is God breathed etc, the NT hadn't been written and therefore was not in Paul's mind when he made the statement and cannot be included. At no time would Paul have had the temerity to believe that his letters constituted scripture.
  
  However, that is not to say the NT is not useful.
  1 John 2:1 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.
  This was already in Eve BEFORE she ate of the tree.
  Gen 3:6 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye (lust of the eyes), and also desirable for gaining wisdom (pride of life), she took some and ate it.
  
  According to Orthodox Judaism: "Eminent Jewish thinkers, like Maimonides and Nachmanides, have accordingly understood this chapter (Genesis 3) as a parable; and Saadyah regarded the Serpent as the personification of the sinful tendencies in man, the Yetzer hara, the Evil Imagination." and "Man was mortal from the first, and death did not enter the world through the transgression of Eve".
  http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
  
  Man was created with a dual nature, the Yetzer Hara and the Yetzer Tov, where the Hara is the inclination to satisfy his own desires, and if unchecked by the Tov, can result in evil. Moreover Satan is often viewed as a personification of our own selfish desires rather than some external force. Thus Eve had an internal conflict and chose to ignore the Tov and go with the Hara.
  http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm
  
  The whole fall of man story is borrowed from Assyrian-Babylonian creation myths: two human figures, with a serpent behind them, stretching out their hands toward the fruit of a tree, are depicted on a Babylonian cylinder. The Garden of Eden is not even alluded to in any writings before the post-exilic prophets (Where the Jews were influenced by Babylonian myths, and later by Zoroastrian beliefs of the Persians) and even in these no reference is found to the Fall. The fall of man, as a theological concept, begins to appear only in the late Apocrypha and pseudepigrapha. According to Philo, Adam typifies the rational, Eve the sensuous, element of human nature; while the serpent is the symbol of carnal lust and pleasure. After Philo, Samuel Hirsch, among modern expounders, treats the fall of man as a typical exposition of the psychological processes which precede sin (temptation) and gradually (through self-deception) culminate in actual sin.
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic … ll-of-man.
  
  As to Satan, look up Numbers 22:22 in a Jewish bible. The Angel of the Lord is a satan. Also compare 1 Chronicles 21:1-3 with 2 Sam 24:1-3. Who enticed David to sin by taking up a census, Satan or God? The key difference is that Chronicles was written 500 years after Samuel, critically after the Jews has assimilated Zoroastrian beliefs of Satan aka the Zoroastrian Ahriman. Jews no longer wanted to believe that evil could come from God, so they evolved the concept of Satan from being God's agent to accuse Israel to keep them honest, into an enemy of God. Note also that you will not find a single instance of a demon in the Hebrew scriptures.
  
  I'm not go to say anything more on Satan other than suggest you drop the medieval Christian doctrine and instead go and search a few Jewish websites.
  
  As for fallen angels, they don't exist because according to Judaism it is impossible for an angel to disobey God. Moreover, the myth about fallen angels taking human wives comes from the apocryphal Book of Enoch written in about 200BC. It is NOT scripture. Incidentally a human/angel hybrid resulting from a human/angel marriage is impossible because Angels don't have DNA or a penis.
  
  Thank you for your post, because it encouraged me to revise up on this research that I carried out last year. I was getting a little rusty.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well a billion people would disagree and Paul isn't an authority on what is God breathed. It can be argued that the NT is more scripture than any other scripture and for someone to claim "it dont count" is ludicrous when considering a notion or concept of a hypothetical satan.
  
  Because you choose to "speculate" on whether Paul would in the future deny scripture being scripture is mere speculation and irrelevant, because the concept of satan as an individual evil being does in fact exist, no matter how much you would like to wrangle on the obvious.
  
  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
  
  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.<-- is about as scripture as you can get.
  
  What part of this do you not understand?
  
  And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.'
  And the LORD God said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou.
  
  Does God punish parables? You can parade 2000 years of rabbinical opinion all day long if you like. The scripture is clear that Eve believed she was beguiled and God punished the serpent.
  
  The concept of a supernatural evil being called satan exists.
  
  Your arguments that well, the NT dont count inexplicably, well rabbis debate this or that, and finally its a copy cat of other religious myths still doesnt change anything.
  
  The concept of a supernatural evil being called satan exists.
  
  Further, I never quoted from Enoch, I quote from only the Tanakh.
  
  that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
  ג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, לֹא-יָדוֹן רוּחִי בָאָדָם לְעֹלָם, בְּשַׁגַּם, הוּא בָשָׂר; וְהָיוּ יָמָיו, מֵאָה וְעֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה. 3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
  ד הַנְּפִלִים הָיוּ בָאָרֶץ, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם, וְגַם אַחֲרֵי-כֵן אֲשֶׁר יָבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים אֶל-בְּנוֹת הָאָדָם, וְיָלְדוּ לָהֶם: הֵמָּה הַגִּבֹּרִים אֲשֶׁר מֵעוֹלָם, אַנְשֵׁי הַשֵּׁם. {פ} 4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
  
  I encourage you to research more as well.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's an informative post. It answered a question I've asked a hundred times. No demons in the OT, but running rampant in the New. I couldn't figure out why and Christians looked at me like I was crazy when I pointed it out.. Now I know.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @Pheonix.
  "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son". In no way does this statement validate the NT as scripture. Jesus did indeed speak to those in the first century, but that does not determine that what the writers of the NT wrote down was dictated to them line by line, word by word, by God.
  
  When it comes to the interpretation of Hebrew scriptures by Jews or what the medieval Church says, who are you going to believe? Those for whom they were written in imagery pertinent to their culture, or the Church with an agenda to keep?
  
  Satan can exist, in fact the Hebrew scriptures give us two occasions where an evil spirit influences man: King Saul and the false prophets of Baal. In both cases, the spirit is in the throne of God and volunteers for the mission. The word satan is a Hebrew word meaning accuser or one that opposes, it can refer to any angel on a mission from God or a human being. If an angel, it is always in complete obedience and under the authority of God. Alternatively satan is interpreted as an allegory of man's sinful nature.
  
  With regards to the Sons of God and the daughters of men, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Sons of God were angels. Humans who are obedient to God are often called sons of God. It's possible that Sons of God refer to Seth's lineage and daughters of men to Cain's lineage - remembering Cain left God for the Land of Nod. Jesus Himself said that there were no marriages in Heaven, because men will be like angels who just don't get married. Angels don't have the equipment to procreate or consummate a marriage. They have no DNA. Therefore sons of God can only be human beings of a different ethnic group to the daughters of men.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone could make the same argument with the OT. But satan as a hypothetical evil being yet exists. Will you now consider that satan should be removed from the dictionaries as well?
  
  Neither, I can read it for myself. You should try it. Then it would be your opinion instead of literally the opinions of countless others, that rarely agree with each other. Like I said I can read the Tanakh according to Masoretic Text in english. Medieval Churches with an agenda to keep- is an opinion you are willing to offer, why not your own opinion on anything else?
  
  So now you concede: "an evil spirit influences man"
  
  sons of God- in context- they were in the earth in those days,
  
  (as opposed to somewhere else?)
  
  Angels cannot procreate or have DNA? How do you know that? Which things are angels capable of and which things are they not capable of?
  
  So if we just throw out the NT and throw out the dictionary and throw out the book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees and only select just certain rabbinical interpretations and exclude all others that you personally disagree with-
  
  You are left with making my original argument for me in what looks to be an irrational and extraordinary attempt to limit detection of even the mere existence of a concept of satan.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *****************************
  
  In the Old Testament, the Bene Elohyim Have always been angels.
  
  All that were directly created by God (instead of being born through reproduction)
  were called the sons of God.
  Adam was called Son of God because he was directly created.
  
  Angels can procreate, that's why in Genesis God talked about the serpent's seed and Eve's seed..seed always meant children.
  
  Mankind was made ONLY a little lower than the angels.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Phoenix, I agree with your recap there, and yes, it WOULD explain what we see in the world, at least to some degree. Not much does. You make a point, but are using "high math" for my brain right now, haha! I get your drift though, very cool analogy.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here’s my comment regarding the subject. Many world leaders hide behind the Christian religion while actually being Satanists. Naming oneself Christian gets one accepted and is easier to dupe the masses. People think that Satan is a non existent entity, an entity contrived by religion to enslave them but our very own world leaders worship him in various forms. Most people think that “In God we Trust” is in reference to the “Christian God” when in fact it refers to Lucifer. The eye in the pyramid is the most applicable symbol in Freemason which is a society that involves the worship of Lucifer.
  
  Man is never closer to God than when he kneels, spiritually naked, at the altar of Freemasonry.
  
  Masonic Services Association
  M.S.A. Magazine
  
  Here are some of the quotes of Albert Pike which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Freemasonry’s great “Architect of the Universe” is Lucifer.
  
  • “LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light ... ? Doubt it not (p. 320)!”
  
  •Manly P. Hall’s book entitled THE LOST KEYS OF FREEMASONRY. This quote by this 33rd Degree Mason is another source for this belief, because he wrote: “When the Mason learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. ‘
  
  http://www.plim.org/Freemasonp1.htm
  
  “We have therefore, in the 24th degree (Masonic Ritual), recited the principal incidents in the legend of Osiris and Isis … Everything good in Nature comes from Osiris… Osiris was the image of generative power. This was expressed by his symbolic statues … Osiris and Isis were the Sun and Moon … and is the All-Seeing Eye in our Lodges … Osiris was invoked as the God that resides in the Sun” (Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike, pgs. 474-477: Freemason and Illuminati member)
  
  See the site for the Freemason pyramid with the all-seeing eye.
  
  http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id193.htm
  
  The all-seeing eye is actually that of Horus. Horus was represented as a falcon, master of the sky, sun and moon. The sun was believed to reside within his right eye, while the moon was in the left. Ancient Egyptian culture propounded that the bright star (sun) and the satellite (moon) traversed the sky as Horus flew across to protect his people.
  
  Wedjat or the 'eye of Horus' is an Egyptian symbol associated with the age-old battle between Set and Horus. According to mythology, they refused to relent and every move made by either one culminated in a new set of challenges. It was believed that Horus and Set finally challenged one another to a stone-boat race. However, in this particular race, Horus had an edge, since his boat was actually made of wood, but disguised to resemble stone. Set's boat sank and Horus won the race. Legend has it that Set officially handed over the throne of Egypt to the victor. This myth culminates in the unification of upper and lower Egypt.
  
  The 'Eye of Horus' represents the sun. Horus was worshiped as the most important god of Egypt. He was given more than fifteen distinct forms, which were divided into two groups or clans, solar and Osirian. Those who believed him to be the son of Isis worshiped him as Osirian, while others worshiped the 'eye' of their favorite solar deity. The Eye of Horus symbolizes protection. The 'eye' stands for indestructibility that aids rebirth. Most funerary amulets in ancient Egypt were shaped to resemble the Eye of Horus. The symbol is still revered as 'the vessel of wisdom' that increases man's ability to view the world with truthfulness.
  
  http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html
  
  And so Satanism extends into the music industry. Here’s a confession:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEXUzCgn-nM
  
  Video series on the various entertainers who have sold their souls to the devil.
  
  http://www.theindustryexposed.com/
  
  Many celebrities show their allegiance to Satan and often do so in front of our eyes without our knowledge. When someone covers one of their eyes with their hand or something else, it is meant to represent the all-seeing eye of Horus.
  
  Watch the video:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhG7Ri7q … plpp_video
  
  Rihanna was once asked why she covered her eye on her album cover and she replied it is because she is a devil-worshipper.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwvkzTkmGY
  
  Now back to the world leaders. The American elite gather at a place called Bohemian Grove annually and make mock human sacrifices (real ones can’t be proven) to the owl deity Lillith. I’m sure most know she is Satan. Watch the Cremation of Care ceremony:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hszzdj0K … re=related
  
  1981 News report about Bohemian grove - YouTube
  
  Bohemian Grove news report:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCDs9Vs2iYM
  
  We also have the nefarious Skull and Bones Society at Yale University with members of the like of John Kerry and Bushy Jnr. Here is an outdoor initiation.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF1N3nyiHRM
  
  Why are so many people worshipping Satan? Why would they perform black magic to conjure up an entity that does not exist? Would Satanists like Aleister Crowley write books on how to make sacrifices if it served no purpose? What is this aversion to Jesus?
  
  Want more information of the Satanism of our world leaders?
  
  Lucifer god of the Illuminati Part 1
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ipWYLdiag
  
  Well, I’ll leave you with two frightening videos that suggest demonic possession. See how the girl goes crazy during an exorcism in Jesus’ name in the second video.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk
  
  So perhaps it is time to stop blaming religion and start blaming the devil who has led the whole world astray.
  
  Hopefully you will see how I got my views on evil. And no commenting until all the material has been viewed.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't watch the videos, this is why;
  
  1) people tend to not want to be accountable for their actions. Christians blame it on an outside source, honest people take the rap.
  
  2) The only evil I know, is the evil I am capable of.
  
  3) The only evil in this world, is the evil people create.
  
  4) Human nature is selfish, hateful, greedy and warlike. There is good in humanity, God/gods have nothing to do with it.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you say Christians aren't honest? Are you saying that all non-believers acknowledge their transgressions?
  
  You don't know what you are talking about and should have refrained from commenting because the reason why you think this way is because you didn't consult my sources. You should ask yourself WHY our world leaders worship Satan.
  
  Stop living with your head in the sand. Why do people want to live in denial? I know this world is scary but it's better than being hood-winked.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I just see alot of scapegoating. As an adult, I have to be accountable for my actions. I just don't see magic fairies as being responsible for right and wrong.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Entities being the source of right and wrong does not mean they need to take the blame for our own actions. We have free will and we have to face the consequences when he do wrong.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan is tempter friend.. not the controller.
  
  He can only lead people if they LET him.
  
  People that do mean and evil things are servants of sin. They serve the father of lies and murder, Satan.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If Satan really did exist, it could be argued that you empower him by your belief in him. You give him greater reign by perpetuating the belief that he leads people astray. It's almost as if you are a servant of Satan, when you think about it.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OH MAN! now I have something else to think about.
  
  My brain is full, I will have to forget something in order to have enough room to think about that.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, that is again, respectfully.. incorrect.
  
  His purpose is DECEIT.
  
  If it is true He exists.. (And he does as far as me, the Bible, and Jesus Christ are concerned)
  
  Then to deceive people it would be useless to tell the truth.. lol
  
  Lies bring more lies. If he wants more lies, why would he tell you he is here???
  
  For example: ever heard, you're only digging your hole deeper?
  
  That's because one lie multiplies to many lies.
  
  It would be kind of hard for atheists to deny God if Satan shows his face...
  
  Reading this thread shows that people don't think it's Satan's fault already, because they don't even think he exists.
  
  If they knew he exists they would blame him for evil, but if he doesn't exist people start accusing each other....
  
  Deceit....
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seem a decent fellow, so I'm going to be honest. It was kind of cute, in a bizarre way, to read Claire's posts. This 'the sky is falling and it's all Satan's fault' is a little retro and quaint...if one person is doing the dance. Two of you attempting to tag team the insanity doesn't fall into the category of cute. It's more in the range of creepy.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's the whole thing Emile. You're failing to recognise exactly what you're seeing.
  
  We don't care what you think of us because we KNOW (lack of doubt - proven - seen just like it were physical) that it is the Truth.
  
  If we DIDN'T KNOW, do you think we would be making ourselves fools in the eyes of all these people? They DON'T believe, so obviously it wouldn't be to our social advantage to talk like we do, and to witness to it's Truth would it?
  
  EXAMPLE:
  
  If you absolutely KNEW - (don't ask me how, God works in mysterious ways - THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT) - that Hell was REAL..
  
  As real as the screen in front of your face, and the keyboard and mouse you feel under your fingertips... And people were going to this place.
  
  Not BELIEVED... K.N.E.W.
  
  Would you be more concerned with what they thought of you?
  
  Or more concerned with the fact that it lasts forever, and it's horrible and painful and you don't want people to suffer because MOST PEOPLE really don't enjoy watching people suffer. (Not to that extent for certain)
  
  Most people, DO in fact love their neighbor even if it's only a little.. We still understand love. (family, friends.. etc.. )
  
  People aren't always crazy. Things SOUND crazy. And that's the whole problem.
  
  A quick story...
  
  There was a boy in school, who disagreed with a group of people who were beating up on another little boy. The group of children were in number about 5. And everyday they made his life hell while the teachers were not looking.
  
  Now the boy who disagreed would tell the teachers, because he didn't want to see the other child suffer. And even if it cost being beat up as well, he took the chance, because the victim was too afraid to tell for fear they would do worse to him, as they threatened.
  
  But no matter how hard the little boy stood for the true story and witnessed for the young man being tortured, the teachers would not believe him. After all they, the teachers, never seen anything done to him. The teachers asked the 5 children whether they did such a thing, and they answered "No, why would we want to do that? He is angry because we wouldn't play with him." So the teachers told the the little boy who told the truth, "There are five of them telling us the same thing, and one of you telling us the opposite. At no time have we seen them do anything either, and they all tell us you want them in trouble."
  
  So, the little boy tried each day to catch them doing it, and prove to the teachers what he said was true. But the harder he tried to get the truth across, the more upset the teachers became accusing him of lying.
  
  The little boy did not care that the teachers became upset with him, because he had to watch the other child suffer every single day. And every day, the little boy watched helpless and went home and cried.
  
  Finally, his father asked what was the matter, why was he crying? The little boy told him what was happening at school and the father asked the teachers if he could sit in class with his son a day.
  
  The father sat in the classroom, and watched outside the window toward the playground. He noticed when the teachers became preoccupied the children became to bully, and one of them was the watcher who watched the teachers to warn the others.
  
  So he began to take pictures and spoke immediately with the teachers, saying "My son tried to tell you that there was someone who was suffering and being abused, why did you not believe him?"
  
  The teachers said "There are five children who said your little boy is making things up, because he was not allowed in their group."
  
  So, the father showed the pictures to the teachers, and they became ashamed because... They did not try harder to be sure that the child was not suffering. ...
  
  That little boy who was trying to tell the teachers is me.
  
  People don't tell you about Hell for self indulgence... or insanity.
  
  They have seen, and heard, and know.
  
  And because they KNOW.. They don't care what you think.
  
  They would rather accept being called insane, then to be ashamed and know they done nothing to help people who are going to go to a place full of pain.
  
  When I face God, and I will.. I can't bear the thought of Him saying..
  
  "You knew Daniel.. Why did you not tell them?"
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Armed with nothing but an outdated text and nothing more than belief, nothing can be proven by words alone. If however you were talking about truth from a personal point of view, then it is most certainly true for you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I would suspect that the teachers simply knew you well enough not to believe a word you said. Your first statement is a perfect example of that.
  
  Certainly, if any kid in a school had credibility with their teachers, those teachers would not hesitate to check into such a story.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you KNOW Satan exists? Have you seen him, actually, physically? Where is your testable evidence? I know my car exists, because I see it, get in it and drive.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would contend then that people are satan, for most truly only serve themselve's.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  <--- coveted double laughie award
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, you are starting to worry me. That post is so far removed from reality that it serves little purpose to argue with such delusions. Time to get a grip.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Emile, speaking of being far removed from reality, I thought to get back to about my conversations with the Pentecostal's in Duncan BC and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada regarding our good friend brotheryochannon. They said they knew of him but he didn't attend their church, but attended a church that is not Pentecostal, and were deeply saddened, and I quote, that "he is in fact not being a good witness for Christ".
  
  They know of him and wish to remain far removed from him.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. Well, that raises my opinion of pentecostals. I don't know any personally; but the videos that have been posted here coupled with the posts about interpretation of the Bible made me assume they were all a little off balance.
  
  That whole scenario that caused you to contact them was wild. I had never seen such an ugly side of religion until that thread. I always assumed that was the way some secretly thought, but I was shocked that anyone would have the audacity to post such hatred for the world to see.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, they were definitely off balance, but that just shows how off balance our good friend is and the fact they don't want anything to do with him. Scary.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ************************************
  
  Blah Blah Blah.......
  
  When did the Jews or Islam hide behind Christianity? NEVER
  
  LOL
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ************************************
  
  Blah Blah Blah.......
  
  When did the Jews or Islam hide behind Christianity? NEVER
  
  LOL
  
  Satan is the part of a person called the shadow self. It's the part of a person who tempts us.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Biblical references:
  
  Luke 10:18
  
  John 8:44
  
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ***********************
  
  Really Funny and so informative---
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, i find no humor in the scriptures.
  
  And, yes, the Bible is very informative.
  
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  **********************
  
  How do those scriptures relate?
  I think once again you don't understand scripture
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never said anything about Jews and Muslims hiding behind Christianity. I say Satanists do that. I don't mean the layman Satanist who think it's cool to claim he is one. I'm talking about world leaders like George Bush who says he is a devout Christian yet belongs to the Satanic Skull and Bones Society. Hitler, too, is an example. He harped on about his Christianity when he actually was a Satanist. And the ultimate example is the Vatican. They ARE the church yet have a Satanic agenda.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bush was pirate? Yo-ho me mates! Shiver me timbers! Arrrr!
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Long John Silver plies the seas looking for an innocent ship with plans to kill the crew and steal their gold.
  George Bush crosses the sea looking for an innocent country (Iraq) with plans to kill the population and steal their oil.
  
  Mmmm, you may ave a point ATM.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You think the Skull and Bones originated with pirates?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Putting words in my mouth, now? Where did I say that, Claire?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So then why did you joke that Bush was a pirate? How about accusing him of being a Knights Templar? Come on, you DID think it originated with pirates! So tell me, where did it originate from? Answer that without googling.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who cares where it originated?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with most of what you said Claire.
  
  It's pretty obvious he is the father of lying as Jesus put it. He isn't fresh off the wagon..
  
  Nevertheless, not all can be lied to so easily.
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. Just curious, what don't you agree with?
  
  The truth of the matter is that the truth is so horrifying that I would put my head in the sand like most people because I would not have the courage to deal with it. Only my faith in Jesus Christ helps me to cope with these things.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear.. lol, I didn't mean I disagree with any of it.
  
  Just meant I haven't had time to cover it all.
  
  And I agree. I've ran from God, head in the sand, thing before because it's unbearable. But He got me. I know what Jonah feels like, that's for sure...
  
  And to your last sentence.. I couldn't have said it better myself...
  
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it's a lot of material.
  
  God sees a potential willing spirit and that is why you eventually found God.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I may have said this before, but Lucifer isn't Satan. It was Origen in the 3rd century who first made that one up. Thus Jesus and the apostles never once believed that Lucifer was Satan. However, that's probably because 'Lucifer' doesn't actually appear in the Hebrew scriptures.
  
  I may have also said this one, but just because a group of people worship Satan with all their heart, it does not logically determine that he exists.
  
  Furthermore, no amount of Egyptian mytholical beliefs in weirdo eyed gods can make those gods actually exist either. Heck they thought the Earth was flat.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then you don't know Satan then. We comes under MANY names. Baal, Beelzebub, Lillith, Baphomet, etc.
  
  Alice Bailey was a student of Freemason and Satanist Helena Blavatsky founder of theosophy. She even set up something called Lucifer Trust that is a publication company which the United Nations uses funnily enough. It was changed to Lucis Trust because of the controversy of the name Lucifer.
  
  This is what Blavatsky once wrote:
  
  “Stand in awe of him, and sin not, speak his name with trembling … It is Satan who is the god of our planet and the only god. … When the Church, therefore, curses Satan, it curses the cosmic reflection of God.”
  
  They believe Satan or Lucifer has come to liberate mankind from the tyranny of God and to give them Christ Consciousness. Funny how she goes on about not sinning when the objective of the New World Order is to enslave.
  
  You think a group of people worship Satan? How about most of our world leaders? Quite frankly, I do not know why they do that should it yield no results. What is the objective of performing human sacrifices? And I suppose black magicians are black magicians because it sounds cool. Lol.
  
  World leaders believe they are the reincarnation of these gods as Pharoahs were in ancient Egypt. You have got to ask yourself why all the secrecy regarding these secret societies. Why do world leaders hide behind other religions and not say they are Satanists? If it is because of an outcry it would cause, then why associate themselves with Satanism at all? It's also staggering that people like George Bush and Ahmedinejad pull the hand signal for El Diablo or the Cornuto.
  
  http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 … _satan.htm
  
  Why are all these people doing it? You think it is because they want to say, "Rock one!"?
  
  You want to know where the symbol comes from?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisbOL55 … re=related
  
  The moon goddess Diana.
  
  What to know who is a moon god?
  
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … phomet.png
  
  Pray tell, why are these world leaders worshipping something so horrific? Does this horrific thing enable them to enter wars without a conscience?
  
  I'll tell you this much. No country is really opposed to one another. They are all dedicated to forming a one world government.
  
  Did you by any chance watch all the videos except the "industry exposed" one that is just way too long to finish anytime soon.
  
  The material has been posted for the viewer to make up their own mind. No one here can claim they were never warned.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Usually such talks are heard only in psychiatry wards.
  On second thoughts, they are saner!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you watched all the videos? If not, how can you dismiss it as crazy? It's like Christians condemning the theory evolution to the pit of hell without looking at the evidence.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Paranoid schizophrenia!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so sorry that you possess zilch courage.
  
  "There more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Horatio
  
  "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." - Albert Einstein.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its Good that you posted the one who started a major religion- relativity!
  Claire Satan is a concept, and the world is not driven by concepts. You think the world, except you and probably vector, is driven by a concept the ancient ignoramus invented, that falls more in the line of schizophrenia.
  Businesses are done for profit, not to benefit Satan.
  And whether its satanists or Muslims or Christians, It's all the same -supernatural and hence illogical and to an extent, idiotic.
  And its not a bad idea to bring the whole earth into one nation, but the problem is its impracticallity now, but all changes were ideas first.
  You have a delusion Claire, otherwise THINK before you post.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You mean you THINK Satan is a concept. Tell that to our world leaders. I think the American Elite are complete loons chanting to a giant owl sacrificing an effigy to Lillith. Do you think they are insane?
  
  You can make a profit and benefit Satan at the same time. Why would they associate themselves with Satanic symbols?
  
  You truly are a fool to the Global Elite to believe that the New World Order will be good for you. Only someone truly ignorant would think like that.
  
  So do you think Einstein is right when he says condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance? How much research have you done into the New World Order? Have you looked at my links? All of them? If not, how can you brush it off as insanity?!
  
  I used to laugh when Christians dismissed the theory of evolution because it conflicted with the Adam and Eve story because Eve really did talk to a talking snake because the Bible said so therefore not bothering to consult the links evolutionists posted. I looked up the links of evolution I was referred to so that I could actually argue from an educated point of view instead of dismissing things I don't think possible.
  
  You remind me a lot of them. Dismissing ideas that don't conform to your ideas of reality and not bothering to look at links. Just goes to show, the religious and non religious are all the same.
  
  Lol
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What does it matter? Whether they worship god or Satan is all the same!
  Btw, I think you are insane!
  
  There is no absolute good or bad, they are only relative. And though the end of democracy is predicted(and proved)to be dictatorship, the times have changed. Nobody(even your OT tyrant) can rule the whole world under a dictatorship.
  
  Because what you say defy logic and reason.
  
  On the other hand, you ought to study a little more history, and human psychology and a little neurology.
  And in case you missed this, This the reply by Winston to one of your post
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/91412?p … ost1989766
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I find your double standards astonishing. You say it doesn't matter and that Satan and God are all the same yet do not condemn the American Elite as insane. I think that if you saw your neighbour sacrificing effigies to a giant owl in their back yard, you'd call the police to take them into a mental hospital. But when I report on this I'm insane.
  
  An insane person cannot conduct a debate. I can so try again.
  
  Yes, it's only relative and not bad for someone to sacrifice children. But religion is evil.
  
  Really now? And what if the Global Elite through the likes of countries like England and the US And France, etc, go to war and pick off the countries with sovereignty one by one? And what if under-developed nations are so starving that they will be compelled to accept a New World Order or else not get any food aid? And what if the global economy implodes that the only solution is to have a one world currency? The Illuminati aren't stupid. They have been planning this for centuries by the guidance of their Satan. I'm not the one who says this. They do. The United Nations is Luciferian. Don't believe me? Visit my hub on the topic.
  
  War demoralizes and scares the hell of people. They are so desperate for peace, they will accept anything. As Rockefeller said, the right major crisis will lead to the New World Order. World War three is just around the corner.
  
  The most disturbing of all that depicts ultimate tyranny is the fact that the Global Elite want to microchip the people so that if they don't cooperate they will have that chip switched no longer being being recognized as a legal entity and therefore they cannot buy or sell.
  
  This is what Nick Rockefeller told his friend, Aaron Russo.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA
  
  Interesting that you assume my god is the OT god. Do you know what the literal translation of the Torah is? For example, it isn't GOD in the OT but GODS. "Let us make man in our image". The OT has been so corrupted by occultists, it isn't funny. Sometimes God wants sacrifices, then he doesn't. He says don't murder then kills first born children.
  
  Perhaps you should research the Sumerian Tablets.
  
  How do you know my links don't contain facts? You don't because you are too scared to look at my links.
  
  You don't know anything about true history! You just believe everything you are told!
  
  I'll get to Winston's post.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religion/god/satan are all insane, the only difference is the number of people who subscribe.
  Insane persons do debate, I told you not to go by films.
  
  World economy can implode, but no elite will be able to stop it, everybody will perish. There is no question of under developed countries agreeing for aid, for they with aid still starve and do not properly distribute aid.
  
  A war cannot change much, for now it is technologies that will be fighting and not humans and if a world war occurs nothing much will be left behind for a new world order,
  
  As if you think!!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We'll just have to see how everything pans out. Ready for World War 3?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the human beings can survive that long!!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You think we will die that soon? It's not long before Iran is attacked.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The more pressing problem is the Greek crisis.
  Even if Iran is attacked, there won't be much change from the Iraq one, though this time America will be poorer compared to last.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really now? And you think Iran will be a walkover with Russia and China in the wings? This time, nuclear weapons could be used. There is no evidence that Iran has nuclear weapons but I'm sure there is a cache underground.
  
  I strongly believe the American dollar will be completely obsolete in the foreseeable future.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The same arguments were there during Iraq war too, this time the major impediment is the bad American economy. America is just recovering from recession, hence it cannot divert its resources for a war.
  Its not the preeminence of renminmibi or euro is the problem, it is the very basics of economy, demand!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did Iraq have the backing of China and Russia? Well, they sure weren't that much help then.
  
  China has said an attack on Iran is an attack on China.
  
  You don't realize that money is just a concept. When the banks loan you money, they don't go to the mint and create more money. America is drowning in debt yet still has money for war. America gives billions of dollars in financial aid to Israel and Egypt. Big question: where does that money come from? Nowhere. It's a farce.
  
  Obama says military intervention is not out of the question in Iran. A war with Iran was planned 20 years ago according to four star General Wesley Clark. Other countries on that list were Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Sudan, Syria and Iran.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY2DKzastu8
  
  "-The sinking of the USS Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and other justifications for past wars have turned out to be false. Similarly, a number of high-level intelligence officials and politicians have said that the U.S. would fake a provocation and blame it on Iran as a casus belli. For example, Ron Paul has warned of a “Gulf of Tonkin type incident” in Iran, and Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter Seymour Hersh says many ideas have been proposed for provoking a war, including building boats that look like Iranian boats, and then putting Navy Seals on them to “start a shoot-up”
  
  http://www.infowars.com/american-britis … rontation/
  
  Oh yes, America is itching for a war in Iran.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its not America that is itching, its the weapon industry and politicians who works on hate to get political mileage that is itching.
  I very well know money is a concept, but I was not talking about money, but about its circulation. Unlike world war II where man power was the major factor, now its technology which cannot stimulate economy. Recession's 'll be aggravated by war now, not reduced, which is the major concern of America now, along with the budget cuts and tax breaks and reducing deficit.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually it is Wall Street, one aspect of the shadow government, that wants war. Not only for profit but for progress towards the New World Order.
  
  Non existing money can circulate, decirculate, be given to poor countries and used for war but it still will be nothing. The economy is stimulated and slumped ON PURPOSE.
  
  Let me give you an example of this deception:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8GyHK87 … re=related
  
  I would say the Rothschilds manipulate the world's banks.
  
  By the way, you were talking absolute nonsense when you said insane people can debate. Honestly, do you really think I'm insane?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're debating?
  
  Debate: A discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal.
  
  Where are your "reasons", Claire. I see few if any.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Now I really do!!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have an scientific article that backs up what you say?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No scientific article will tell you, you are insane. For that you have to see a doctor.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Do you have no shame? In order for you to come to your conclusion on the insane capable of conducting a debate you must have looked at the facts corroborated by scientists and psychiatrists.
  
  No, wait...you didn't just make that statement up, did you?
  
  Fail.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't have to consult articles, you just have to go the psychiatric ward of a hospital.
  They'll debate and the reasons they put forward in support of their arguments will be similar to the one you put forward to support your arguments, no touch with reality.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  . That's not called debating. That's called mindless rambling.
  
  The definition of a debate:
  
  "Debate or "stressing" is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examines consistency from axiom, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic."
  
  Tell me if an insane person is capable of the above? A logical argument?
  
  I think you can differentiate my talks on spiritual matters and entities and debates like the New World Order, Tacitus, Satanism practised by our world leaders, for example, which are based on fact.
  
  As much as the existence of Satan and God is the truth it is not fact.
  
  By the way, I am being treated for depression and my psychiatrist doesn't say I'm insane at all. Considering the years of studying and practising I think his opinion is more educated than yours.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First yours was not a logical argument.
  No psychiatrist will tell his patient that.
  Do one thing, get some medical books and see in which topic 'depression' is given. Mind you insane for the public is, psychiatric illness. There is no medical term as "insane". Now if you want more details I'll suggest kaplan's psychiatric disorders as that is the basic text book of psychiatrists.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What are you getting at here? If you reply what I think you mean, I will never address you again after explaining why.
  
  And I've got major depression and am not bipolar if that helps in anyway to explain the mysteries of my mind.
  
  In all honesty, you are wasting my time with your pathetic comments. Do you have nothing better to do than exchange words with a loon? Just move on!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  O! It amuse me, don't you see that I'm not addressing any of your specific comments, like I used to do?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Coward.
  
  I'll tell you what you implied. You implied that I am insane because depression falls under the mental illness category. It is because of people like YOU that people won't seek help for depression because of that stigma and then land up committing suicide because they cannot cope with life.
  
  I cannot believe people could still be so uninformed in the 21st century. It's sickening. You have no argument against me that is why you resort to calling me insane and it is truly pathetic.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  As far as I'm concerned there is no mental illness, all are structural/physiological abnormalities of brain, for what we call mind is the comprehensive function of brain, hence its neurology, and hence most cannot be cured, only tempered.
  I don't care whether the depressed take treatment, or commit suicide, its none of my business.
  You have no arguments that is routed on reality. Whether the world leaders worship Satan or god is their business and either has the same effect on the world.[And for the last time I tell you, god and Satan are concepts which has nothing to do with reality. The wish of millions of children does not make tooth faire any reality]
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ************************
  
  Doctor's refer to being insane as seriously mentally ill.
  
  It is rare even for a doctor to tell his patient he is " not mentally ill", much less "not insane"
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mentally illness has many different categories like depression. So would you consider people with major depression on par with insanity or lunacy or nuthood whatever you'd like to call it? And by insane I mean they cannot hold a coherent thought or speech and don't know the difference between right and wrong?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ***************************
  
  It sounds as though she is into conspiracy theories, and believes everything she reads on the internet.
  
  She is totally confused and shows a lot of fear. This type of person is always looking over their shoulder because everyone in her mind worships Satan, except her.
  
  I can't say it's 100% true but it seams that way.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Acknowledging the influence of Satanism in the world doesn't make me afraid. In fact, the people that refuse to look at the facts are afraid. What did I say that alludes to me thinking everyone worships Satan? There'd be no good in the world if that wasn't true!
  
  Glad you concede it isn't 100% true about what you say about me. That's some honesty. Truth is, when people start lashing out at others it is because they are insecure and afraid of the truth.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ********************
  
  Take it easy Claire.I'm not lashing out at you.
  Don't be so paranoid.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Deborah, I wasn't referring to you. I said "people".
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Lamborghini Diablo - Diablo being Italian for devil. Does that mean Lamborghini are Satan worshippers? No it's a cool sounding name. Similarly at work I was working on a proposal for an logistical support system for a programme to equip the UK armed forces with new communications encryption equipment, project Cipher. I wanted called the support system Logistic Users of Cipher, or Lucipher. I thought it was funny, but programme wanted a much more boring name.
  
  Claire you obviously love conspiracy theories; perhaps man did not actually land on the moon, George Bush planned 9/11, and the Egyptians were visited by aliens, but conspiracy theories are only taken seriously by the tin foil hat brigade.
  
  Most western governments are secular and I can't imagine for one minute that our David Cameron or any other European leader seriously believe all the hocus pocus you tak about. Though it might make for a good novel.
  
  Experience in Europe with Greece being bankrupt, Portugal, Ireland having bail outs from the IMF, and worryingly Italy being in big trouble, all confirm to those that are sane that a unified European currency cannot work, let alone a world one. Disparate week and strong economies cannot be tied together and thus a united government could never work either. The Soviet Union collapsed, so the republics all split off to become independent states. Yugoslavia split into five states after a horrendous war. Scotland now wants independence from the UK. History shows that ethnic groups want self rule, and over time, they get it. There will never be a world government, it cannot work.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Lamborghini company probably is owned by Satanists. Most businesses are.
  
  No one claims that Bush planned 9-11. He's too stupid for that. Have you actually researched the claims of aliens providing advanced technology?
  
  Have you perused all my material?
  
  You don't get it. Things are DESIGNED not to work in order to achieve the end goal. It's called the "problem-reaction-solution". In other words, create the problem like an imploding economy, get the public to panic and rebel, and then provide the solution by introducing a world economy.
  
  Let me give you a few quotes about the New World Order:
  
  "We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller [June, 1991]
  
  "This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long... We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis, and the nations will accept the New World Order." - David Rockefeller speaking at the United Nations Ambassadors' dinner. [Sept. 23, 1994]
  
  Strobe Talbott
  Deputy Secretary of State under Bill Clinton
  In the next century (now), nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single global authority and realize national sovereignty wasn’t such a great deal after all.
  
  UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown
  We need a global New Deal -- a grand bargain between the countries and continents of this world.
  
  obert Mueller
  Humanist and Former Assistant Attorney General of U.N.
  We must move as quickly as possible to a one-world government, one-world religion, under a one-world leader.
  
  http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/com/quotes.html
  
  "Iran and Syria have a joint mission to create a new world order on the basis of justice, humanity and belief in God," Ahmadinejad told visiting Syrian Parliament Speaker Mahmoud al-Abrash.
  
  http://www.haaretz.com/news/ahmadinejad … r-1.260993
  
  VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday called for a radical rethinking of the global economy, criticizing a growing divide between rich and poor and urging the establishment of a “true world political authority” to oversee the economy and work for the “common good.”
  
  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world … 8pope.html
  
  It's called divide and conquer. If we don't have wars the current system of the world cannot be changed. The United Nations would never have come to being unless WW2 didn't happen.
  
  Of course Iran and Israel hate one another but they will do whatever is necessary to implement the New World Order. That will take place when there is a peace treaty in the Middle East.
  
  The interesting thing is that people like Ahmedinejad believe their one wold leader will be Al Mahdi who sounds remarkably like the Anti-Christ and the West believes their one world leader will be Matreya, the Christ guided by Lucifer.
  
  We do not have mere people dictating the events of the world. Satan is omniscience and can make this all come together. Think this is nonsense? Watch all the videos. Can't say I have my tinfoil hat on unless you look at all the evidence.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most businesses are owned by Satanists, Claire?
  
  The next question to ask is if religion causes insanity or is it the other way round?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So my local green grocer is a satanist? How about the window cleaner?
  
  A one world government sounds great anyway. We all get to keep our national cultures and identity, and we will have world peace. I'm quite looking forward to it. Intelligent scientists and economists running the show instead of politicians.
  
  There's no Satan though. He's been invented.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I meant to say major companies like chain stores.
  
  Yes, of course there's no Satan. What you believe is gospel.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Walmart?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You may wonder why people are loath to look up those references you post Claire. We have no idea who these people are behind these conspiracy websites. They could be any old bunch of fruit loops with a low IQ, ignorant and bigoted, little formal education, prone to get overtly emotional, who see meaning in things that aren't there.
  
  When I read on some paranoia site proclaiming that everyone is sucking mythical satan's toes, I just can't take it seriously. They are the kind of people who think astrologers can see the future; think that Islam is of Satan; think all rock music is satanic; think Tourette's is a result of demon possession, think that martial arts are evil, or that windmills are satanic tools . They are like medieval Catholic paranoid priests who see Satan in a black chicken, or 1950s politicos seeing communists under the bed.
  
  They mock ancient mythology about beliefs in sea monsters, mermaids, and labyrinthine minotors, yet they believe in demons and an arch fiend called Satan, but don't see the irony. A simple historical research of Judaism, Jewish history and Zoroastrianism would simply dispel such beliefs.
  
  I spent 25 years in Church. I've heard people claim that a series of nightmares were the devil attacking them, or that the devil made them crash their car or the washing machine to pack up. I've read accounts of people claiming Jesus took them to see hell to witness poor souls being tortured by demons pushing hot pokers up their bottoms. Ive lost count of the number of times I'm told that God curses those that don't tithe, or that God wilfully tortures people in hell. I've seen people falling over alledgedly slain in the spirit, or so called drunk with laughter on the 'New Wine'. How any times have worship leaders screamed that "God is in this place moving in power" as they hype up the crowd into an emotional frenzy? I've read Derek Prince and Bill Subritsky. Ive sat in conferences staring Rodney Howard Brown, Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, and Joyce Meyer. They all think the Holy Spirit is talking to them when they talk absolute bollocks.
  
  Myths do not reality make no matter how excited people get about them.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have to wonder why people don't look up the references. I know. They just don't have the courage just in case there's a legitimate source which you clearly don't know if there is because you haven't looked it up.
  
  Nobody should just believe what they are told. I most certainly do not. I go where the evidence leads me. Do the investigation yourself. It is a fact what the dollar and the all-seeing eye is on the dollar bill. Here's an interesting quote from the highly influential Satanist Aleister Crowley:
  
  "Satan! Cry Aloud! Thou exalted Most High! Oh my Father Satan! The Eye!"
  
  Magnum Opus, Book 4.
  
  Go to various sites and see their sources to see if they are legitimate or not. I never just look at one site and take it at face value. I look for corroboration.
  
  It is out of Rihanna's own mouth that she said she was a devil-worshipper. It came out of the mouth of David Rockefeller and others about the New World Order.
  
  It is a fact that the American Elite go to Bohemian Grove and sacrifice effigies paying homage to their God Satan in the form of Lillith, the owl. Listen to the 1980's news report I posted that reports on Bohemian Grove.
  
  I don't make this stuff up. If people don't do insane things I can't sound insane reporting on them.
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You might want to consider, instead of looking for corroboration, that you look for denial.
  
  If you want to believe something you can always find corroboration for it on the web. There is always a nut job somewhere that will tell you anything, anything at all.
  
  If instead you look for denial and try to find evidence that something you have read isn't true you will at least have evidence on both sides of the fence to compare and think about.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are obviously those who don't want to compare and think about anything. It's so much more fun to rant hysterically in a faceless environment. This type of behavior, in the real world, would get the conspiracy fearing evangelists padded rooms with professional help. Where's the fun in that?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bohemian Grove. It's a bunch of blokes going out into the country to get drunk, have a laugh and let off some steam. If they go through these sacrifice and homage ceremonies, you don't seriously think they take it seriously do you? Do you actually believe they think that what they are doing is real? I suggest that after a few beers and smokin dope, anything is a bit of a laugh.
  
  Channel 4's John Ronson wrote "My lasting impression was of an all-pervading sense of immaturity: the Elvis impersonators, the pseudo-pagan spooky rituals, the heavy drinking. These people might have reached the apex of their professions but emotionally they seemed trapped in their college years."
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think they don't take it seriously??? It's funny how you say they aren't taking it seriously but when I report on what they do I'm a loon.
  
  Let's think of their mind set for one moment. Why would they "jokingly" sacrifice an effigy to Lillith who is Satan? If you listen to the Cremation of Care tape recording of the ritual, it will send chills down your spine. Do you know what the purpose of that ritual is? To dull the conscience, which is something they are excellent at. How could anyone with a conscience advocate war? Have you actually watched the ceremony as shown in my link?
  
  Now, if they allowed Channel 4 to film in there it is for a frickin' good reason. They want their lounging about to be filmed so to deceive the public into thinking that is all they do. How many other times have journalists been thrown out?
  
  What happens behind the scenes is not known to the public.
  
  However, there is a surviving MK Ultra mind controlled victim called Cathy O'Brien who reveals what exactly happens at Bohemian Grove. This is her story:
  
  O'Brien (born in 1957) says she serviced an array of politicians including the cocaine snorting Clintons (A Three-Way), Ronald Reagan, George H.W Bush, Dick Cheney, Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Governors Lamar Alexander and Richard Thornburgh, Bill Bennett (author of The Book of Virtues), Senators Patrick Leahy, Robert Byrd (her handler) and Arlen Spector. Notable by their absence were Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon. Taylor (born in 1951)slept with JFK and LBJ as a preteen and teenager.
  
  When O'Brien's daughter Kelly was born in 1980, they often worked as a mother-daughter team. George H.W. Bush particularly liked Kelly. Cheney is not a pederast because his large genitals horrify children. (195)
  
  Referring to George Bush, Dick Cheney told her: "A Vice President is just that, an undercover agent taking control of the drug industry for the President." (158)
  
  George Bush Jr. was present on one occasion but is not accused. (196) O'Brien was rescued by Mark Philips in 1988. It is likely that Bush Jr. is involved in this mind control, drug and sex scene. Rumors swirl around him and his behavior is erratic. Remember the pretzel incident? Last summer Margie Schroedinger a woman who was suing the President for rape "committed suicide."
  
  O'Brien visited a series secret paramilitary compounds throughout the US like one at Mount Shasta in California. "I learned that this not-so-secret military buildup consisted of special forces trained robotic soldiers, black unmarked helicopters, and top secret weaponry including electromagnetic mind control equipment."
  
  At these compounds O'Brien and her daughter were often hunted like wild animals, tortured and raped for the amusement of CIA, military and politicians.
  
  O'Brien worked as a sex slave at Bohemian Grove, the elite's perversion playground on the Russian River in California. She says the place is wired for video in order to capture world leaders in compromising positions.
  
  "Slaves of advancing age or with failing programming were ritualistically murdered at random in the wooded grounds of Bohemian Grove...There was a room of shackles and tortures, an opium den, ritualistic sex altars, group orgy rooms...I was used as a "rag doll" in the toy store and as a urinal in the "golden arches" room. (169-170)
  
  Strangely, mind controlled sex slaves are used as diplomats and lobbyists as well. At a Governor's Conference, Secretary of Education Bill Bennett advised O'Brien to "persuade these Governors at their weakest moment, bring them to their knees while you are on yours, and convince them that global education [the Education 2000 initiative] is the way to the future if there is to be any future at all." (173)
  
  O'Brien's book is available directly from her. It is also available from Amazon.com (search Mark Phillips).
  
  Svali is an Illuminati Defector and she was interviewed in 2006:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZccxuKjXApA
  
  Sometimes I think I go to far in my research because I realize once I know something it cannot be undone. I have to cry now.
  
  Out of interest sake, have you looked at my links I've posted?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've looked at a few, and the one that made me laugh was the Rihanna one. And the one where that minor celebrity said that those in the entertainment industry had sold their souls to the devil. Of course when speaking metaphorically using imaginative terms, you think she believed they literally had sold their souls in some macabre ceremony.
  
  Might I suggest that in the interest of balance and as an antidote to hysteria, you have a look up of
  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_co … y_theories
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And how do you know they are speaking metaphorically? Pray tell!! Why should the covering of her one eye not represent devil worship when we know that the eye is Satan according to Aleister Crowley? Do you think he thought of Satan as metaphorical?
  
  It is true that "selling your soul to the devil" represents immorality like promiscuous sex, drugs, etc but that is where is should stop. It shouldn't involve secret symbols and black magic rituals at the Grammy's.
  
  I don't know if you saw the Grammy's with Nicki Minaj's little black magic ritual where she is being exorcised by a priest and levitates with a choir blasphemously singing, "Oh Ye Faithful", a blatant attack on Christianity.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc6j5z78LxA
  
  Who is Roman of whom she speaks? It is the demon that resides in her. Listen to her confession:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt90t1-Chlw
  
  Is there any truth in what she says or is she just nuts?
  
  Jumping to another subject a bit, I'm sure you have heard many people claim that world leaders like Bush Snr are reptilians. There are tons of those videos circulating the Internet and most are just not convincing at all. However, there is one shot of Bush Snr that puzzles me because I'm not sure how he did this thing with his eyes.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=xyCuJ5thRPs
  
  Do you know what happened at 01:57m?
  
  We are going back and forth not evidently achieving much but I ask this of you. What if I am right? What then? How would it change you if all? If you knew 100% Satan existed would you just continue life as normal? Perhaps Satan's greatest achievement is getting people to believe he doesn't exist.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I watched the Nicki Minaj video and I have to say she's got very little talent. I've never heard of her before and now I can see why. Just a lot of fast talking into a microphone with no discernable lyrics against some computer generated thump thump ain't got no rhythm toons, with a load of camp dancers cavorting about. I saw no black magic ritual, just some brainless bint caught up on her own ego, and a seen-it-lots-of-times-before levitation illusion trick.
  
  As to the next video about this Roman character, although I'm no psychotherapist, I'm guessing she's suffering from some bi-polar disorder, or she's just hyping up some publicity in some self obsessed ego trip in order to sell some (c)rap records.
  
  Can't comment on the last vid as it didn't load, but the YouTube blurb looked like it was going to be complete and utter hysterical tripe.
  
  Look Claire I believed Satan existed for 20 odd years because I never questioned the Church; to disbelieve in him rendered one a simpleton in their eyes; and I didn't know any better. I had my suspicions, but when the Pastor's son stood up before the Church and proclaimed that the devil caused him to crash his car, enough was enough. So I started to research the Hebrew scriptures, read up on a number of Jewish websites, read a large tome on Jewish theology, as well as looked at Christian history, it soon became apparent that Satan as known by the Church and Hollywood just does not exist. I took all my findings to God and asked for confirmation. What I got was complete peace about my new understanding.
  
  Do yourself a favour Claire; if you believe the Holy Spirit talks to you then put everything you think you know at your Father's feet and ask Him to show you the truth. You must be prepared to let everything go with an open heart if you want God to give you new revelation.
  
  I'm not going to argue with you anymore.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The levitation could or could not be real. I tended to think it was an illusion but I could be wrong.
  
  The video loads just fine. Are you purposely avoiding it?
  
  Here's the link again:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=xyCuJ5thRPs
  
  The text appears in 5 seconds.
  
  So you believe in God but not Satan?? Huh?? Satan can give peace to "confirm" things for you. He comes as an angel of light.
  
  Don't you think I have?
  
  Sure, nice talking to you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think the more probable scenario is......if Satan exists his greatest achievement is his selection of those who argue in favor of his existence. You guys do a pretty good job of entertaining, but fail miserably at presenting convincing arguments.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The more one defends the improbable, the more obsurd they start to sound. Arguing for the exsistance of the intangible, is like trying to get a cat to eat vegitables... it's pointless. I can talk about God all day, none would quite be on the same page, for everyone would make their own mind up about it. Mostly running with an answer in wait, for it's all about one upmanship and the need to be absolutely right.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ***************************
  
  Really? In another thread you said Crowley had killed people, which is absolutely not true.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really now? A sicko who calls himself "The Beast 666" never thought it was appropriate not to sacrifice children despite the fact he wrote how it should be done?
  
  Who are you trying to kid?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that most businesses, or most big businesses? I'm getting ready to buy a small business. I'd like to know. If I've got to be a satanist I should start reading up on what's expected. If they are going to be sacrificing virgins at the local business club I'll need to buy appropriate attire for the ceremonies.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You'll also need a sacrificial knife and a pipeline of fresh virgins,
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A sacrificial knife? I suppose I'll see if I can find one on Amazon. It's a big business. Owned by satanists, I guess I'm sure there will be a few to choose from.
  
  Which brings up another question. Do you think all of the stock holders are satanists....or just the major ones. How much stock does it take to classify as a satanist?
  
  I hope Claire comes back to clear this up.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Me too, I'm completely lost without the inane rantings of religious righteousness...
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The nearest I've found to a sacrificial knife on Satanic Amazon is this:
  
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Aztec-Sacr … amp;sr=8-3
  
  Perhaps it's to remind the mother that she is supposed to sacrifice the baby 'after' feeding.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  very interesting claire
  Thank you for posting that
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're welcome.
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  Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evil is a description we give to behaviors (or people) which do a great deal of harm with little or no benefits.
  
  Religion in many forms does do harm however I wouldn't generalize by calling all religion evil.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration of a skeleton have never prevented human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumor".
  Auldus Huxley
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do we have propensity to do evil? Why is it wired into our brain? Animals wouldn't do what some people are capable of doing.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's not true. That is a fundamentalist Christian lie. Look at the world Claire. Start with your community. The great majority of humanity wants to live in harmony with their neighbors. Sit in the courts for a couple of months. You'll find that petty crimes are perpetrated by a few, over and over again. Those who commit violent crimes are a small percentage of society. Stop projecting your fears.
  
  Now you say evil is hard wired into people. Is it hard wired into you? Do you fight against your instincts to do harm to others? That isn't normal. We don't have Satan imbedded into our DNA. No matter how very important it is for you to think we do.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I respectfulfully disagree.
  
  A switch on of the good old flat screen will show what humanity is enfatuated with.
  
  Lies, power, wealth, murder, deceit in any way actually.. not just lies.
  
  The title most people use for tv now that desensitizes is "drama"...
  
  Just for clarity, what are "drama" shows about? Nothing BUT lies.... lol
  
  It's just evil wrapped up to look like bunches of fun.
  
  But... murder, nor deceit, is fun or pleasurable when it directly involves ourself.
  
  If evil wasn't a part of people, the things we "enjoy" to watch wouldn't be cruel actions.
  
  I could go on for days about the horrible things humanity causes, then denies they are evil. Or, that evil even exists.
  
  I've witnessed enough to know we, humanity, are for a certainty not pure love...
  
  Actually, I'd go as far as saying, that if we accounted the good vs evil ratio on the programming across the world of what is most popular.. I would put ALL of my chips on the bet that humanity is very, very much the opposite of good...
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never said life was pure love. Wouldn't that be nice.
  
  But, I can honestly say that is one of the problems I have with Christians. You guys watch the most violent shows on tv. No, that's not it.
  
  You look at humanity from the worst possible angle. You see the bad and blind yourself to the good. Out of curiosity, is that the way you think God is? If so, why would he send his only son?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I don't watch television for that very reason. [well, occasionally.. news, some movies etc.. i'm not an omish person, lol]
  
  And Christians are still people, in that they vary one from the other.
  
  They choose themselves what they want, and God determines whether their heart was in it for good or for evil. People aren't pure love, or pure evil.
  
  That is because it is a choice, and life is a learning process. No one is at the same position in understanding as their neighbor, just like we are not in the same position in age.
  
  And I do no such Ms. Emile, lol, cmon now.. I see bad AND good.
  
  He sent his Son to save the people who, once they realize they aren't all good, would accept their place, that God is God and they are His creation and loved children who need His help, and would love Him and CHOOSE good.
  
  Being MADE to be good out of force, and being given the OPTION, is my point. Who wants to say "love me and love your brother! now!" with a blackmail type attitude using power? lol, that's not love...
  
  We can't go to an ALL GOOD place if we AREN'T all good. That would corrupt it. We have to be made whole again, if we choose good, once we decide to choose good or bad. God, or that we don't want God, which is choosing the opposite team, which is Satan and evil.
  
  A full glass of clean water is not clean anymore if an ounce of dirty water, a small amount in ratio, is poured in it. It must then be filtered completely if there is ANY dirt, or it is not clean water.
  
  God gives us the choice, and we have ample opportunity to choose from good or evil because we live in a world with both, and experience both. Which means we have both in us, clean water got a little dirty..
  
  Jesus Christ came so that if we choose good, and God, He would filter the bad from us so that we CAN enter a pure world without currupting it.
  
  Those who choose good, and EARNESTLY seek good, and God, know that Jesus Christ is good, and is telling the Truth.
  
  Things aren't simple to understand from the way the world sees things because they are humans, and they all throw their opinions in, which though I know I have an opinion, I try to start nuetral for the best understanding.
  
  Everyone disagrees, which means SOMEONE is wrong.. lol
  
  I can answer, and would love to answer the best I can, any questions you genuinely have that you think is an untruth relating to the Bible and God.
  
  Understanding truth versus lies is practically what I've devoted my life to.
  
  And, OF COURSE, someone is going to disagree with this. lol
  
  But, that's just an offer. If your curiosity gets you.
  
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We don't. It is ideologies such as religions that cause good people to do bad things.
  
  It isn't. Compassion and altruism are more hard wired into our brains than evil.
  
  That would show then that it is in fact ideologies and not hard wiring. We are also animals and we act very much like them in many ways.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People have been quarelling since the dawn of man, religion is just a convenient reason to do so.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, according to you, whenever people get together, the first thing they do is quarrel? And, they keep quarreling because that's what human nature is all about?
  
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not exactly... Humans are capable of great acts of kindness, but also capable of great harm. A person will protect what they believe they own, such as ideas, land and social titles.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, people are "capable" of doing great things and committing great harm, but have you ever taken the time to understand why they do either?
  
  Protect from what?
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People are suspicious of others, as long as the ideas are different and someone owns what another wants(among other reasons), there will be a reason. This is not to say that one would not be apt to share, but the other may want it all. Greed, power, lust, hate, murder and rape, these are a few of the evils of men. Love, compassion, mercy and charity, these are fewer, but carry more power. One can move a city with hate but with love, one can move a nation. Love others like you love yourself or the word love means nothing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, those are characteristics of a very small portion of the population and usually we find there is some mental illness or some other ideology driving them, these are not characteristics we all exhibit.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We all have one issue or another, most are just not willing to be mindful of the self.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is besides the point. Do you find that everyone is out to kill you, or rape your wife and daughters, steal your land and your possessions?
  
  If that was all part of human nature, then none of us would be here, we would all self-destruct.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In this world there the eaters and the eaten, predators and prey. Humans are no different from the rest of nature, worldly or universally. Everything destroys or is destroyed, even by the ravages of time. Time creates and destroys every moment, so then we are no different.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It must be nice to just go off on some ethereal tangent so as not to have to explain yourself.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, yes, it is always religion that is responsible for evil. People never do evil, like murder, unless it is because of their beliefs, right? So no atheist is capable of doing wrong?
  
  Really now? Do you think compassion and altruism is wired more into your brain than putting people down?
  
  Bring up a toddler with absolutely no discipline and see how she/he turns out.
  Can you think of an act animals have done that is on par with the worst evil mankind can commit?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, atheists are 'capable' of doing bad things just like everyone else. But, being capable and committing murder are two completely different things. So, we look at how much murder is committed and the reasons that drive them. And, since murder is committed by a very small fraction of the population, it's obviously not 'hard wired' into us.
  
  We aren't talking about just murder, Claire. We are talking about what makes good people do bad things and we find that overall it is the ideologies they embrace and not some characteristic that is hard wired into their brains.
  
  With religion, you are taught that everyone is born a sinner, which would suggest that everyone is born with evil hard wired into their brains, yet that is far removed from reality and what we observe. Of course, the power of suggestion is quite influential, especially with the gullible and the indoctrinated, hence if you are taught that you're born evil, you'll probably end up acting that way.
  
  Well, we certainly find a tremendous amount of evidence right here on these forums of believers constantly personally insulting others, so it would appear embraced ideologies are causing that, too.
  
  What does discipline have to do with religious beliefs? What is your point?
  
  Of course not, which would indicate that those worst evils were not the result of being hard wired into us considering we are animals, too.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me tell you a little story. Do you know how the murder rate would spiral out of control if it wasn't illegal? That is why we have laws because people find it much easier to do wrong than the right thing. It keeps us in check. There is also a thing called a conscience which is God's way of talking to us. It doesn't matter if murder was legal people with a conscience would still not
  commit it. As much as it is hard-wired into our brain to commit evil, we are also capable of doing much good.
  
  Then what makes people commit evil? And don't say a small fraction commits things like murder, etc. Evil falls under many categories. Things like bullying and being spiteful is also considered evil. And that is absolutely poppycock that people being taught that they are sinners they will probably land up acting that way. It is absolutely true that we are sinners. Who has never done wrong?
  
  ATM wrote:
  
  Nice dodge. It's always the believers that are at fault. Perhaps they are mean because they were taught that they were born bad. What's your excuse? Why do you have a propensity to be spiteful and petty instead of mature and decent? Why? Because it is easier to be that than self disciplined to make an attempt to be respectful.
  
  My point is that if you don't discipline a toddler, they will turn out to be little monsters. Why? Because it is hard-wired into our brains to be selfish, spiteful, etc. Without discipline, a person will NEVER turn out to be a decent, compassion, respectful person because those things take discipline in speech and actions.
  
  Speak for yourself. Think of yourself as an ape if you wish. Why do some people have the craving to do evil so unspeakable that animals would never do it?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, those laws are for the very tiny portion of the population who commit those crimes.
  
  That's insane.
  
  You just contradicted yourself.
  
  Evil is not hard wired into our brains, that's just insane.
  
  Bad ideologies, like religions, for example.
  
  But, that is reality.
  
  That's insane.
  
  Yes, I understand you need to tell me that simply because I argue your irrational beliefs.
  
  That's insane and far removed from reality.
  
  Our genetic makeup speaks for us, not me. If you have a problem with that, speak to your God and ask him why he made us the same way as apes.
  
  Animals don't got religion.
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  Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually many species of animals do commit what we would consider murder. Chimpanzees have actually been known to go to war against rival factions, their battles include sticks made into make-shift spears.
  
  From what I understand of it it seems that the more intelligent an animal is the more likely it is to have these sorts of behavioral issues. It may be that our intelligence and ability to form more complex thoughts opens us to a wider range of both positive and negative behaviors.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that not the survival of the fittest? Since when do people murder so that mankind can weed out the weak? Okay, Hitler did that but only because he wanted a pure Aryan race. Apes cannot discern between right and wrong like we can.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, you said we were born sinners and evil is hard wired into our brains and have asked which animals have committed great evil as compared with men?
  
  You're not being consistent here, Claire.
  
  Oh, but looky here...
  
  "Monkeys and apes know right from wrong, scientists say"
  
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … s-say.html
  
  "Animals 'can tell right from wrong': Scientists suggest it's not just humans who have morals"
  
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … z1mef1ghAO
  
  "Apes know right from wrong - MONKEYS and apes have a sense of morality and the ability to tell right from wrong, according to new research. "
  
  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo … 1118858764
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  nasakeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  you have no way to prove animals have no religion...
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. Only last week, my cat was praying to Aaron Aardvark, the God of ant-eaters. When I asked him why he was praying to that false god, he said "Meow".
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  <--- Coveted double laughie award
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  nasakeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is no way of knowing. Their daily routine could be some sort of ritual in honour to their deity. Their really is no way to know for sure.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It was funnier before, but gets less funny the more you say it. Projecting your irrational beliefs onto animals is getting utterly ridiculous.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is the only article that loads. It's very sweet.
  
  I just want to draw your attention to this:
  
  Professor Frans de Waal, a primate behaviourist at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, said: ‘I don’t believe animals are moral in the sense we humans are – with well developed and reasoned sense of right and wrong – rather that human morality incorporates a set of psychological tendencies and capacities such as empathy, reciprocity, a desire for co-operation and harmony that are older than our species.
  
  Animals are capable of great love that is for sure. And while this study may be true, I was thinking along the lines of why lionesses kill yet do not have a conscience about it? Yet if we kill, most would feel bad or traumatized.
  
  Why haven't animals, since we are too, developed the same well developed morals that we have? And why would animals not commit the same atrocities as the worst kind of evil there is? For example, an animal would never have sex with a newborn yet there are people who rape newborn children. I'm just trying to figure out why this is.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are many more. In fact, I found over 65,000 papers in Google Scholar alone that talk about apes and morals.
  
  "De Waal’s essay is titled, “Morality evolved: Primate social instincts, human morality, and the rise and fall of ‘veneer theory’.
  
  He outlines three levels of morality, comparing humans and apes—moral sentiments, social pressure, and reasoned judgement. According to his analysis, other primates have the first, aspects of the second, and only a little of the third. Put more specifically, most animals show Functional Altruism (perform acts that are costly to the performer but benefit the recipient). Many social (group-living?) animals show Socially Motivated Helping (empathic responses to the distress of their fellows). Some large-brained animals (primates, cetaceans, elephants?) go further, and show Intentional Targeted Helping (which entails awareness of how the other will benefit from being helped). Finally, only some large-brained animals engage in ‘Selfish’ Helping, in which the helper is intentionally seeking return benefits. All four variants are forms of altruism, and are often confused."
  
  http://www.paleoanthro.org/journal/cont … 070034.pdf
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If our goodness is part of evolution from our "ape ancestors", then what happened when people have resorted to the pit of hell? I am asking you what the mindset is of a person who rapes a baby? What makes people do things that even animals wouldn't do?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Insanity, and in the wild such types usually don't survive.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chimps hump younger males, it's a form of domination. Is rape not a control issue?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Think so.
  But among humans, pedophiles are usually mentally deranged persons and only near to our present time(may be a 1000 years), those people could survive.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most rapists are socially impotent in one aspect or another, hence the control issue. They are emotionally damaged individuals and are usually following a cycle of sorts.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. People think its a special human trait, while its present in all animals. Only, as humans became more advanced, as we decide not to punish but treat disorders, these personalities attained maturity and even sometimes pass on their trait(if its genetic) to the next generation, which usually do not happen with animals, unless its associated with other traits that help them survive.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's insane.
  
  Do you find that happens frequently in your neighborhood?
  
  I already told you, bad ideologies make good people do bad things. If not an ideology, then their brains are dysfunctional.
  
  You'll would probably say something about Satan or whatever, but the brain is an organ and can easily have problems developing for any number of reasons, either genetically, during pregnancy or even after birth. Science is beginning to understand quite well the brains functions and how it can develop issues.
  
  There are studies of the brain that show the similarities between insanity and the zealotry of the religious.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
No.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Humans are responsible for the evils of this world, there are no magical creatures doing the evils, just human ego.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've got that right. Imo.
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habeeposted 12 years ago
Men are the root of all evil.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess we did let the woman follow her selfish nature and eat the fruit.........................................oh bazinga!!! jk
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pedrogposted 12 years ago
Enjoy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 1446868316
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fpherj48posted 12 years ago
Emile R and "others"....It's fairly obvious Clare not only does not know the definition of "hysterical," but she has clearly proven herself rather under-educated in general. This being said, take special note of how she felt compelled to TELL me I visited the site of my own volition.....as though somehow I may not be fully aware of this elementary fact. Her very frame of mind offers confirmation that she has chosen to remain helpless & useless in this world while being "directed" what to do and not do, how, when where and why.....Quite evident that Clare prefers the helpless/mindless means of existing, under full control.....like a puppet, perhaps?
To add a touch of "immaturity," it seems she feels a tantrum is appropriate: "I can DO WHATEVER I WANT!!" Yes, you may Clare, dear child. You may. And so may we all.
Therefore, try to understand, I surely do not need your "permission" to leave a site, nor are you the decider of what is necessary or unnecessary.
You began by saying, "Excuse me,". Interesting. I excuse you Clare, because I am totally aware your response was triggered by my question, which in your own small manner of thinking, no one in this community should be able to deduce your motive.
Tsk Tsk...Shame on you, Clare, for assuming all of the intelligence and rationality in this community, does not exist. Everyone "excuses" you, Clare.
In fact, beyond this, we basically dismiss you.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see no shame on her, and I'm not in the "Everyone".
  
  Thanks anyway.
  
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Eric Newlandposted 12 years ago
Forgiveness, love, and charity are poison now? Or is it more the individuals who profess to be members of Abrahamic religions but ignore their most basic doctrinal principles that are the problem?

If a wolf in sheep's clothing attacks you does that make sheep evil? If a white man in blackface mugs you do you join the Klan? To me the logic is the same.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Mr Newland. Good to see you again. Enjoying your hubs BTW and I agree with your thoughts here.
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  Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. Too bad I keep breaking my own "internet arguments are stupid" code. I blame the "recently active threads" feed for constantly baiting me.
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  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny that you mention that because I too am breaking the same rules. I feel like I am smoking in the boys room lol.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These forums can put the bait out there, its often why I don't even look at them, much less get involved. (My response from personal experience....)
  
  Don't take the bait! lol ;p
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said Mr. Newland.
  
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awareposted 12 years ago
i think not
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oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years ago
The 3 Abrahamic religions you mention only have Abraham in common, and are vastly different from one another if you study them closely. Their prophets, beliefs, who they follow, their books, all differ greatly. (Just to make a note on clarification there. They are diametrically opposed to one another very often.)
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oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years ago
I meant to answer, "neither" to your question however.

Human beings making conscious choices to break moral codes or laws inherent in all of us, are the root of all evil. That is one way to say it anyway, that doesn't go against what anyone believes, atheist or theist.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Evil and good come from the minds of MAN...male and female. The main body of evil is that which we perpetrate against each other. We won't enjoy peace until the dragon within is chained.
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knolyourselfposted 12 years ago
If the right has money as its unifier, the opposite or left would have God. But until God becomes empirical, there will never exist agreement.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
I think abortion would make more sense if it was retro-active.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
People who have no control. No control over their minds, their bodies. A world out of control. And none of you see that. Amazing.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Claire...do you like to play "kill the messenger"
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christianajohanposted 12 years ago
I don't believe religion made the world in chaos. No matter what things we are in common or not in common, people quarrel.

Even in politics where people stand by the law, still having troubles by themselves.

Religion is just one of the aspect where people make conflict.

Life is precious and should not be wasted like some youth these days.

The true meaning of life? Let me show you. I have a humble hub here about life's purpose.

Feel free to visit.

<link snipped - no promotional links>
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rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago
"Get busy living or get busy dying."

Shawshank Redemption

what is your focus?
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
List of Conspiracy Theories
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_co … y_theories

The Freemasons
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freemason
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Deborah, very interesting source of info. Perhaps Claire might like to have a look.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO!
  
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Diane Insideposted 12 years ago
Greed and selfishness is the root of all evil.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Root of all Good too!
  reply report

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