I just read some brilliant work from a man named Simon Greenleaf that freed up my way of thinking a little.
That and a few people I have high respect for here as well give excellent examples to learn from. [ Agua, Dave ]
Just decided I wanted to hear your honest [hopefully respectful] opinions on the subject of the person I call my Lord and my God.
May God bless you all.
And uh.. who's first?
The Holy Bible contains many Historical events and many Historical names of people and their stories, that Mankind and Historians and Archeoligists have confirmed as truths substantianted by fact.
The biblical reporting of Jesus was originally foretold by the prophets of the "Old testament" of the Bible. The "New Testament" serves to fulfill and corroberate the forementioned prophecies completely. This could not be a coincidence as the writers from bot testaments are separated by more than in some cases 600 years.
The very fact that all 4 gospel writers collectively are in agreeance with the reporting of Jesus teachings, miracles, death, and subsequent resurrection serves to prove not only the existance of Jesus, but that Jesus was the Son of God living amongst man for a season of time, so that man could give witness to this fact. The fact that God, the God of the Old Testament, actually declares Jesus to be His Son at the time of Jesus Baptism, establishes that God in the presence of mankind loved man so much that God permitted himself to suffer so as to re-establish His loving connection with man and allow man to become cleansed from sin and draw closer to God again, just like Adam was able to do, prior to Adam sinning.
What exactly about Greenleaf freed up your way of thinking?
To be precise, what exactly did Simon Greenleaf 'free up'?
I've had many tremendously personal experiences that I could never deny have happened, and I have felt amazing things, all through my journey to know and follow Christ.
He's my guide.
Me too Jax, I have angelic visitations that left me breathless as well as demonic attacks that were horrifying! it is a very real world!
Please, please, please seek professional help.
I did! I found the Great Physician who told me I needed to be Born Again so I did. Ever since then all is well! Thank You for your concern for me.
No physician would ever write that kind of prescription unless they themselves required professional help. Any physician who would write such a prescription would lose their license to practice.
But hey, I don't expect honesty from believers, especially ones who represent their beliefs from a position far removed from reality and sanity.
I was speaking of God The Great Physician! Just His touch heals all sickness and even raises the dead. I have seen many friends and family that had deadly diseases and were told they had only months and days to live and the Dr said there was nothing more they could do and the Great Physician was sought after and He came and gracefully granted them healing and life and they are still alive and healthy and well and completely healed because they simply believed in God. The Dr's had to confess many times, "This is a true Miracle"!
Yes, please, please, please seek professional help.
Ahhh Hush...Just Hush....stop being a whiny baby! You are just mad because we enjoy all the blessings of life and you do not. You are just mad at God because you have never seen or heard Him and He never visits you. Well can you blame Him, I mean look at how mean you are to Him and all. I would not visit you either. grow Up!
I believe that both the Immaculate Conception and Holy Resurrection really did happen, and that Jesus died on The Cross for the sins of everyone.
Furthermore, I believe that Jesus is Lord, The Prince of Peace, The King of kings, and God's Only Begotten Son.
I tried it when I was a kid but I never did get the concept.
You mean salvation?
Or just the history itself?
My honest opinion is that the man we now call Jesus Christ probably..probably.. existed and may have walked the earth as a preacher or philosopher. He may even have been crucified by the Romans.
But also that the stories and fables of the supernatural events surrounding him are fantasy only, of no more real value than other fairy tales or children's morality stories. Which is not to say they are of zero value - the books written about his preachings very often give a good guideline to live by if we can dig through the dross and drivel to the jewels buried deep.
If.. IF ....
The stories are fairy tales.. Why then would ANYONE from that time have believed to BEGIN WITH? lol
Maybe they were just reallyyy gullible? [Sry, idea just seemed funny]
Who believes on a man that claims He can raise the dead and make the blind see without seeing it for themselves?
Christianity would have died before it could have EVER got off the ground.
These people had the privilage of going down the road too LOOK AND SEE...
That's like me trying to claim I can raise the dead today.. They'd laugh me into the ground and even if I wrote a story 60 years later to try to 'switch' some people that didn't see my inability.. There's STILL tons of witnesses and no one would take time to care for the pain staking work of copies for sure.. they didn't have printing press..
Link on my profile explains better..
But the idea it's fable makes less sense than it being true.
It leaves you with the conclusion ALL those people lied about events and for a man that couldn't save their souls if they were killed by the jews or greeks..
Sry. Completely disagree.
And concerning a guideline. His words are untouchable. He asked the people one time...
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?
Why? Because He never did. They tried, and recorded in writing as well, to catch Him off and catch Him lying. But they couldn't, lol, ever.
The 'fairy tale' stuff is the reason most stop reading. Jesus done much more than miracles, He taught nothing but good, and to seek God first.
Thx for the post though. Just figured I'd throw my perspective out on the viewing table.
There is also the small point that all but one of His disciples dies horrifying deaths for refusing to deny Christ, when all they needed to do was say... "Just fooling" and they could have walked away free and clear.
Yeah, that is a pretty big witness it's true.
And there's 10 that died for just that. One insane, maybe.. Ten? No.
Michael Jackson might be god, some people committed suicide on his death!
Fairy tales of sacrifices! Imaginary Jesus and non-existing disciples can, of course, sacrifice!
Boy are you clutching at straws!
The 11 disciples who were horrifically killed were not committing suicide, they were making a very costly point to those who were so threatened by what Christ started that they were prepared to kill His disciples in graphically horrendous ways in order to try and break the spiritual breakthrough that threatened and eventually destroyed their religious order.
Nobody willingly stands being stoned to death blessing the people throwing the stones when all it would take to escape death would be a simple 'confession' that they were wrong, that Christ was NOT the promised Messiah.
Equally being crucified hung upside down was not a pleasant death.
The strength of Christianity is based upon two factors, one bad, one unbeatably good.
The bad aspect was that Constantine hijacked the religion and made it a state religion, which brought countless non believers into the 'faith' as they climbed on the bandwagon that Constantine started.
That bandwagon rolled forward and took lands by force, killed 'infidels' and als true believers who challenged their money and power machine.
The unbeatably good thing that arose was a pure faith that relied upon the Holy Spirit to guide it, that was a small 'remnant' of believers who throughout history have been prepared to die for their faith and obedience to Christ and the Holy Spirit.
They carried the torch of the testimony, and despite the enemies best efforts to silence them, they carried that testimony to the ends of the earth, as it was known then.
With the 'protestant' reformation the Holy Spirit was easier to follow openly, and in contention to established Churchianity.
There are still bad adverts for Christ wallowing in their doctrinal pits of deception, and the enemy still attempts to stamp out the moves in people of the Holy Spirit, and is still equally unsuccessful, as these posts prove.
I would never seek to instruct you on how to perform a surgical operation, I do not have the training or skill to do so with any safety to a patient.
I think you suffer the same impediment when it comes to exercising spiritual discernment and understanding.
We can agree to differ, but please engage your brain before you make trite and inadequate statements trying to discredit Christ.
Like Satan, you will never succeed.
Unfortunately for you, Jesus and his disciples are pious fiction! There never was a Jesus, let alone disciples.
Of course there were some martyrs in every religion, as there are fanatics in all. But it was Christians who killed most, rather than getting killed.
And getting rid of delusion might help you think clearly!
Even though the New Testament proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus actually lived, it is by no means the only historical evidence available. Around the year A.D. 94, a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus mentioned Jesus’ name twice in his book, Antiquities of the Jews. In section 18 of that work, Josephus wrote: “And there arose about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. Then, in section 20, Josephus documented how a man named Ananus brought before the Sanhedrin “a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others”.
About 20 years later, Tacitus, a Roman historian, wrote a book surveying the history of Rome. In it he described how Nero (the Roman emperor) “punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called).” He went on to write that “their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus” (Annals 15:44). Even though Tacitus, Josephus, and other historians from the first and second centuries A.D. were not followers of Christ, they did have something to say about Him—and they even verified that Jesus was a real person Who was so famous that He even attracted the attention of the Roman emperor himself!
Another obvious reason to believe that Jesus was a real person is because our entire dating method is based upon His existence. The letters “B.C.” stand for “before Christ,” and the letters “A.D.” (standing for Anno Domini) mean “in the year of the Lord.” So when a history teacher speaks of Alexander the Great ruling much of the world in 330 B.C., he or she is admitting that Alexander lived about 330 years before Jesus was born.
Even though this is only a sampling of the evidence relating to the man known as Jesus, it is enough to prove that He was a real person, and not just some imaginary character. We do not accept His existence blindly—it is a historical fact!
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte … rticle=876
And here is more evidence for reliability of New Testament from other sources outside of the Bible:
http://carm.org/non-biblical-accounts-n … -or-people
I've used the details you've pointed before and glad you posted.
They may be allowed to deny the truth. But they can't make it disappear.
New testament is a collection of fables and not historical documents, or it no more proves jesus than odyssey do to odysseus.Tacitus is christian extrapolation and hear say.
BC and AD at the behest of pope john by dennis the little in 6th century.
Argue with someone who has not studied your history.
"If The stories are fairy tales.. Why then would ANYONE from that time have believed to BEGIN WITH? lol Maybe they were just reallyyy gullible?"
You bet. Are you familiar with the kinds of things ancient peoples believed? The concept of a virgin birth existed before Jesus, as did the concept of a resurrection, and of course miracles.
It is easy for us today to see these beliefs as ridiculous because we have modern science and an understanding of how the world works. Ancient people had absolutely no knowledge of anything. Science did not exist. All they had was the myths and traditions of their forefathers.
If you want a sampling of the kinds of ridiculous things people believed in the ancient world, just look at Greek and Roman mythology, Egyptian, Norse, Chinese, Japanese, African, Zoroastrian, Hindu traditions... you name it. And there were thousands and thousands of people who believed these things and were willing to fight, kill and die for their beliefs. Just look at the history of the ancient world and all their wars.
It makes far more sense to say that the Jesus story is another myth/ legend among countless ancient myths, than to say it is actually true.
Unless you know Him, and more importantly, He knows you.
@secularist you wrote -"If you want a sampling of the kinds of ridiculous things people believed in the ancient world, just look at Greek and Roman mythology, Egyptian, Norse, Chinese, Japanese, African, Zoroastrian, Hindu traditions."
I call that evolution of thought...for there should be some gods , to invention of many gods , to invention of a god...thoughts evolved...we cant blame them for that ...yes but if we still believe in some 2k yr old text written by people who existed in those days and consider it to be true...well well...nothing can be done for that...
Sure, human belief and knowledge has evolved. And in those days, when people didn't have knowledge about anything, those were the best explanations they could come up with. But now that we know reality, we can identify the backwardness and silliness of them all, including the Jesus story.
"The myth of "Nebrask Man" was destroyed when the tooth turned out to be that of an extinct pig. But, they took so much effort to create this myth, that they didn't have the heart to take it out of the text books."
Speaking of ridiculous. lol
And we don't claim the rest of that mess you alluded to. That's where we agree.
The concept came before Jesus because the prophets fortold of Jesus' coming. Or did you not know?
Can't touch the scripts that contain our truth. Your scientists have tried to find enough flaw to call the texts lies. They CAN'T.
Simon Greenleaf is an expert in truths and lies, and wrote the books for the court systems protocols pretty much.
Want the Truth?
Read his work:
Testimony of the Evangelists
He's done all the work. And he isn't the only great mind to do so.
The work I suggested above is just the conclusion.
I still have plenty of stops to pull. The witness of the Gospels has never, can not, and will never be disproven. It is factually sound in every aspect.
God's book is still valid after thousands of years, while science corrects itself daily.
We believe because God gave us a voice to hear. We are Jesus' sheep, and we know His voice. [John 10:4-5]
@vector there is difference between science which works in our lives for betterment than mytch frozen in time...science when wrong admits it...religion never does that.....it is because of science that people can write books that make people use internet to argue with people who dont believe in some strangers 2k yr ago who wrote...ironical ...scientist are true servers of human being and religion must give due respect to science....
you can argue with this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4Lbrik_eU
I can't watch the video.
And I LOVE science. But it's just that, science, and nothing more.
It is limited while my God is not. The Holy Bible and Jesus Christ's teachings are STILL valid in every aspect they touch.
the ironic statement.. funny pisean. nice one
agreed...god is concept and humans ability to have concept is unlimited...science works of facts ...so in comparision science is limited...now creativity can make anything in concept...but when actual reality comes only science helps..........its funny that you find that book written by unknown people to be serious ....
The vast majority of scientists are too busy with far more important research then bothering with ridiculous books of myths.
You do realize Greenleaf thought the Resurrection was a hoax/myth?
That would show you know very little about how science works and merely wish to embrace your holy book having convinced yourself it's valid.
You are making yourself look bad.
And it seems you aren't too busy to bother.
He thought is was a hoax before he done the work.
Read the full story Mr. Baseless Opinions. lol
Who said that myths don't exist today? There's always new myths and falsehoods cropping up. It's just that we are able to recognize them today because of our modern post-enlightenment intelligence and awareness. There are a few myths that continue to hold sway because of their historical momentum--including Christianity, Islam, etc.
"The concept came before Jesus because the prophets fortold of Jesus' coming."
They did not, but that's another story. I wasn't referring to the Hebrews before Jesus, I was referring to non-Jewish religious traditions such as Greek and Roman mythology, Hinduism, Chinese religions, and many others long before Jesus came on the scene. Virgin birth, resurrection and other ideas were present in these traditions long before Jesus.
"The witness of the Gospels has never, can not, and will never be disproven. It is factually sound in every aspect."
Nope. The Bible's factual claims have been soundly disproved many times over. The only people who still give it credence are those who ignore logic and modern knowledge.
It is irrational to believe that a man died and came back to life. Just like it is irrational to believe that David Blaine has magical powers.
However, it is rational to believe that an ancient group of prescientific, ignorant barbarians created a series of myths and legends to explain their world.
Just wish folk would experience Him 'live'
O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Is the key verse to go by.
I think I undersrand your meaning, and kind of feel the same if I'm right.
I heard a man on a Christian radio station talking about king David, and he referred to him as a character.... yet David is a person. Not a fictional novel implant..
I see Christ as able to see everything I'm doing every moment, always with me as He promised. Though, of course, at times I forget
My opinion is Jesus was mortal man who taught moral values and was genuinely concerned for society...After his death his followers elevated him to position of god...I respect jesus ...
Well, you already know my stance.
I do believe that's islam's stance as well.
thx for the post pisean.
@vector7 islam's stance is different than mine...
according to Islam ,jesus was prophet of allah...he never died on cross...allah elevated him directly to heaven...during end times jesus would return ...they have empty tomb adjoining muhammad where they believe jesus would finally rest...
I think Jesus is God and what you see is what you get, to believe anything else is just Man's own vanity thinking there is something better than Jesus.
to believe jesus as god might be Man's own vanity thinking there is nothing better than jesus...
Sorry.. [couldn't stop myself]
dont be sorry ...i know as per ur faith u r sinner but laughing is not sin...continue doing so....
Jesus Christ is, was, and shall return. He is God Almighty manifested in the Flesh. You have a Body, Soul, and Spirit, and those 3 make you one person. Jesus Christ had a Body, Soul, and a Spirit, His Spirit was God almighty. He was the Word, which was God, that was made flesh. God as a bodiless Spirit was God the Father, When He made Himself a Body to dwell in, and to manifest Himself in, He was called God the Son, same God, just appearing in another form. Then once He manifested Himself for 33 years and declared Himself to mankind He then took that Body, hung it upon a Cross, paid for the Sins of the World and rent that veil of flesh in two and out stepped that once unknown Spirit, who had now been made known and a Spirit that had now an image, personality, and character, it became known as a Ghost, A Holy Ghost, in that God now had a picture so to speak of Himself that was revealed. Same God, just appearing in another form. At Pentecost that same God as the now understood Holy Ghost, which could not enter or personify itself within a Man, because of Sin, could now enter the hearts of men and dwell among them because there was no more sin. He is soon to reunite that Holy Ghost back with that Body and reappear to all men. He is Lord and Christ. He is my Savior and my God, He is my atonement and my priest, guide, my Love and my best friend. I Love You Jesus Christ
Amen. We do love Christ Jesus King of kings and Lord of lords.
You should check out "Heaven is for Real".. It's an awesome book about the testimony of a little boy, who couldn't possibly be lying if one in believes Jesus.
Just a suggestion. It fits with every other spiritual experience or nde I've ever researched. Kid says cool things. And they're all scripture verified. He didn't say anything that didn't line up right.
Yes. That's a good thought there.
Oh.. Wait. No..
It looks you have nothing.
Maybe you should find somewhere to discuss and go there.
You have no discussion here.
Nor are you doing anything relevant to the OP.
Just a suggestion.
Or you could just keep cluttering threads for no reason.
@Shiningstar4u2c after death of Jesus his follower's generation believe christ would return before they die...even paul believed that...then after that every generation keeps believing that it would happen...2k yrs have passed....i guess jesus forgot or may be loves teasing his followers or may be doesnot find earth interesting ....
And thankfully they also anticipated your post by 2000 years as well:
Amplified Bible (AMP)
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions which were made by the apostles (the special messengers) of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.
It is these who are [agitators] setting up distinctions and causing divisions--merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.
You guys and gals forget that God knows your every thought and knew what you would do in life before you were even born.
Tell that to the starving children who die every day asking God for a morsel of food.
Oh wait, based on your logic, God already knew they would starve and die.
Such a loving God. Ahem!
That's caused by man, not God.
I wonder if all the rich overweight people in the US alone ate less and donated the savings to the poverty stricken hungry children your talking about if it would suffice to feed them all fully.
I wonder if people quit accusing God, and watched what all the people with money really do, which is waste it, they would see that man is responsible for the hungry people dying. Greed.
And yes, God knows all things, including when the children were murdered by rich people who eat well over excess and donated nothing to starving mouths. Thousands upon ten thousands of wealthy could handle it. There are thousands of millionaires now days. Can't open a single store on a commercial lot without over one million as it is. Like to start counting the millionaires in your city? I wonder if they chipped in on feeding the hungry and spreading back out the wealth to make sure fellow humans aren't dying if the problem of starving in the world wouldn't completely disappear.
I bet there is enough food in the world for all to eat, which means God supplied the means for all to eat. We have enough food, and that is what God gave us.
But the rich want all the toys and don't really care whether sharing is right, even when it leads to thousands of dead children.
Yes, He is a very loving God. And a just God. He takes the children to Heaven, and punishes people who killed hundreds of them because they had enough money to feed 10,000 of them with their pocket change and helped them not, but let them die knowingly.
No, man causes that, and then accuses my God.
He is a very, very loving God.
Amen V7! very well said! Jesus Himself said, We would always have the poor with us. people forget that men have a sovereignty and and at the same time there is a predestination according to foreknowledge. And the Bible says, can the clay say to the potter why hast thou made me thus? He is God and works it all out according to His Will and desire and He makes some vessels t honor and some to dishonor and who are we to revile against God. The poor are an opportunity to share and give, and we should do all we can to help the less fortunate as we have been.
What a bunch of selfish garbage. The poor were put here by God in order to show you how fortunate you are, so you can satisfy your selfish needs to please Jesus?
And all the insults you throw at everyone in the forums are helpful and loving..
Quit trying to throw things our way, and God's way.
Your very attitude shows the problem.. Lack of respect.
No, Mr pass all the blame because I'm perfect. God put them here to be loved, and they were starved because people stole from their mouths taking more than they need and not caring for others.
I can't believe you are seriously that twisted.
Yes, everything is caused by men. Duh.
I wonder if people quit praising God... see how that works?
Well, it would appear praising God is fine, but accusing God is taboo.
Wow! It is truly stunning the depths of twisted sick logic believers will stoop to justify their gods.
Oh Child of Satan. You Have no idea the torment that is already headed your way. Whoever reads this, I would highly suggest totally ignoring this man till he learns to be humble and repents of the blasphemy already done in mocking God. Jesus did not give grace to devils, but cast them out.
Go ahead then Mr. Troubled, please tell everyone straight.
Please tell them that humanity starving is not caused by man.
I'm done with you. You really truly are a child.
I understand the concept behind why children starve to death daily, but you obviously don't. I also understand why you praise your god for all your abundance in light of that. It's called hypocrisy of the worst kind, but I'm sure you'll stoop mighty low to justify it, nonetheless.
Really... those starving children (who only seem to come up when you run out of other repetitions)are truly asking God?
If they had parents who were standing close with God, I doubt they would be hungry, the African ministers I work with all seem to get provisioned well enough to feed their families and the orphans they 'collect', so trusting God seems to work and I have seen the evidence.
Perhaps those families and local authorities are not actually trusting and asking God, but placing their trust in the wrong things, like UN food convoys where the food is stolen and sold by the officials who run them?
Trust the world or trust God,the results are different.
Now please stop using those starving orphans as a cheap shot point when you run out of other inane comments to repeat.
Amen! Bravo! Well Spoken! I stand and clap my hands with you! Great words!
Thank you, the 10 hours of silence seem to agree with your opinion.
You mean, like the repetitions of praise for your God in light of those starving children. In other words, you can't stand it when your God is accused of one thing while you praise Him for another?
Yes, despite the facts to the contrary, you have seen the evidence.
Oh yes, it's all a matter of "trusting" God. I'm sure that goes over well with the starving and how much they "trust" God.
Unbelievably sick and twisted garbage.
I am utterly aghast at your response, which shows a complete denial of reality and a penchant for hatred and disdain of others who don't share your irrational beliefs. Quite sickening. No morals whatsoever.
You are a sick and troubled man, your soul is troubled deeply, you have done very wickedly in your life and God will soon reveal what you have done openly for all to see. You have as well been done wickedly unto and those that have done you wickedly, you have joined with in spirit and instead of finding forgiveness for yourself and for those who have done you wrong you have hardened your own heart and cut yourself off from Life and God and a wicked spirit is what your soul is harboring as a child in its womb. I pray God will deliver you from this wicked demon and grant you the grace that can only come through the love and faith of Jesus Christ at Calvary.
Are you sure you used the term "wickedly" enough?
When I read your posts, I'm utterly stunned at the level of indoctrination and delusion contained within. I've observed that brand of insanity in Hyde Park from Bible thumpers on soap boxes and could only conclude they seriously need to seek out professional help as they show themselves to be some the most dangerous people on the planet, had they the opportunity to weld power of any kind. Thankfully, most others know they're insane and would never allow them access to any power other than the soap boxes they stand upon.
@PISSIN He did return and has returned. So I am not sure what you are saying! He has been here all the time and is about to let everyone know he never left and man the trouble they are going to be in.
by JimLow4 years ago
This list of beliefs I wrote about 5 years ago, came from an approximate 20-year study of the Statements of Beliefs by many different Christian denominations. These were the beliefs I found that were of most common...
by Andrew02087 years ago
WHO IS JESUS CHRIST TO YOU? Striking question indeed. Who is Jesus Christ to you? A Lord, Master, Teacher or Prophet? Whatever! As you share your views...Why Did He Ever Come To This World?
by hinazille6 months ago
...when Jesus clearly said 'My Father is Greater than I' in John 14:28?Nothing can be greater than God, so by Jesus' own words, we can deduce that Jesus did not profess to be God, because he professes that there is a...
by Julie Grimes4 months ago
I think that the Christian religion would have been entirely different, if Apostle Paul hadn't screwed things up. It is my firm belief that if Christians really want to be Christ-like, they need to have a dual...
by jenchristopherson4 years ago
It is true and God has confirmed it to me already. Read <link snipped> and you can decide for yourself if you think this is true or false. If there are alot of false prophets out there then there must be one true...
by Melissa Barrett2 years ago
There's a lot of going back and forth about how Christians are this that or another. Yet no one ever pins down exactly what specific belief it is that makes Christians delusional, or hateful or whatever. The fact is...
Copyright © 2017 HubPages Inc. and respective owners.
Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners.
HubPages® is a registered Service Mark of HubPages, Inc.
HubPages and Hubbers (authors) may earn revenue on this page based on affiliate relationships and advertisements with partners including Amazon, Google, and others.