For those who don't believe in God, I'd like you to consider a hypothetical situation. I hope you can do so sincerely, as I would rather have a discussion than accusations.
Imagine you are driving down the road, and you hear a voice/feeling tell you to pull over. You do so, and within a minute, a semi comes around the corner in your lane, right where you would have been. To make it even better, you're in a mountain pass, so there would have been absolutely no way to avoid hitting the semi.
Would you consider that divine intervention, coincidence, or a psychic experience? If this happened to you relatively frequently(a voice/feeling keeping you from danger) would it hold more weight?
That's what's called "guesswork" - focusing on an event in which something positive occurs while so many other similar events turned out null.
See, you're not taking it seriously troubled. I've never had an impression like that that didn't result in a positive outcome. Are you saying that you tend to respond to a voice with no outcome?
Actually, I did, you didn't.
That is entirely false and you know it.
A blatant disregard for honesty is showing in your posts.
So you are claiming to know everything that I have experienced in my life?
I'm talking about a very specific type of event, and it has always ended with a positive outcome. How can you claim to know otherwise?
If you really know so much about me and what happens in my life, can you tell me what I had for dinner last night?
I never said that, did I? But, it's obvious when someone is trying to tell us they are "special" because they hear voices in their head.
Because, it's as obvious you're lying as the day is long.
No, but it's blatantly obvious you're being dishonest.
That's not the point of the thread, and I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I didn't say 'I'm awesome because...', I said I consider myself lucky to have been able to help other people.
You did claim to know what I haven't experienced. You said I was lying, which means you claim to know everything that I have and haven't experienced.
See, again, you claim knowledge of what has and hasn't happened to me. How do you know?
Well, tough luck, because I'm telling the truth.
You're doing no such thing. Propagating nonsense is not helping anyone.
Because, you're NOT "special" no matter how much you claim you are.
Yes, tough "luck"
You say you know I'm lying. How do you know that?
He says he knows you're lying because accusation is the only language he understands. When given a chance he will accuse Christians of every evil under the sun and if not given the chance he will do it anyway.
He lives to argue and this thread is his lifeblood.
I've dealt with him across 6 different forums and this is what he does. He doesn't reason, he doesn't debate, he doesn't present evidence. He accuses then accuses some more.
I've had experiences like this.
Don't let those who are dead to life hurt you with their brutal words.
They seem to have nothing, that's why they act the way they do.
What if you had 20 such life-saving events?
What if the sky was green or purple?
So many "What ifs"
And you claim to be taking it seriously?
If I had to count, I'd be near 100 of those types of events in my life. And not all of them had to do with my own safety either. I'm glad that I've been able to be directed to help other people at difficult times.
Of course, only a delusional, self-absorbed fool would believe your nonsense.
Yes, you're "special"
So, you have either lied, or called yourself a self-absorbed fool. You said you took it seriously earlier, so you either lied or are a fool.
What's the point of you posting in this thread?
If that's your fallacious argument, so be it.
What's the point of trying to impress on us that you believe you're "special"?
I'm just trying to have an honest discussion with atheists. You are the one who insists on ridiculing. Just leave.
For someone who makes fun of 'invisible sky fairies' and whatnot, you seem to rely quite a bit on some kind of crystal ball.
I would have yours inspected. I honestly don't appreciate being called a liar, but when it comes from a known troll, it doesn't really bother me.
It doesn't take a crystal to know someone is being blatantly dishonest.
Then, stop making blatantly false statements and arguing they're valid.
You have no way of knowing if that has or hasn't happened to me.
To say it is blatantly dishonest is to say you know it didn't happen.
You have no way of knowing. Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I can do nothing but state that I am telling the truth.
Once again, you only prove your status as a troll and a liar. You said you were taking the question seriously, then admitted you weren't. You say I'm the one NOT trying to have an honest discussion, then you simply ridicule, accuse, and laugh.
Do you really get your kicks from acting immaturely on a web forum?
I originally went into psychology in college, but trying to figure out people like you scared me from it.
I did take your original seriously, it was the ridiculous responses you provided afterwards that were laughable.
Failed college, did you?
Nope. Do you really get your kicks from ridiculing other people?
Do you get your kicks from propagating nonsense?
It's only nonsense if I'm lying.
For one who constantly talks about fallacies, you are using circular logic.
You say 'You are propagating nonsense, because you are lying, and you are lying because you are propagating nonsense.'.
I believe in God, but if that happened to me I would ask my family doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist who could properly diagnose my mental illness
So even with your belief in God, you wouldn't be able to believe God intervened?
its not my faith in God's ability that is the issue...
it is the HUGE assumption that the 'voices/feeling' are due to divine intervention that I have a problem with
But, if that happened, you wouldn't be able to consider that it was intervention?
I'm not saying we have to assume anything, just what effect certain circumstances would have on you.
divine intervention would not be my first guess
If it happened to you, say, a dozen times, would you still think it was likely a psychological issue?
if i believed it happened to me that often, then i would be even MORE convinced it was a psychological issue.
How could you be convinced that a psychological issue was predicting the future?
Another example... you here a voice/feeling tell you a friend is in trouble. You head to that friend's house, and find them on the floor, having overdosed on medication.
Do you have any voices sharing lottery numbers? That might be helpful.
Although, I have had a lot of fun playing the scratch cards off of $1.
About 3 years ago, I bought my first scratch card for $1. I won $4.
Since then, I've played about 30 cards, using only the money from my winnings. I've never been up more than $9, but I still say it's the best $1 I've ever spent.
in general, 'hearing voices' would cause me to be concerned with my mental state.
Even if i felt that I was of sane mind, I wouldnt believe that God himself was speaking to me via some kind of direct telephone line to my brain.
Reflecting upon Biblical scripture, I do not recall God giving such vague, unannounced 'heads ups' to people.
I believe that in most, if not all instances, he doesnt make people guess as to whom is giving them messages. Moses, for example, didnt have to wonder as to the origin of the burning bush, and whether it was caused by a forest fire.
Would you have a different idea of what it was?
I'm not clear if you would think it was a mental issue, even being proven to be correct about the future event.
i would call it an unexplained, intuitive 'hunch'
I've always been fascinated with the unexplained. It's not so much what we have learned that interests me, it's what we have yet to discover.
I would have gone into physics, but I'm not quite good enough with the math to keep up.
Another example... you hear a voice/feeling that someone is posting nonsensical rubbish based on their irrational beliefs on a forum and when you head over to your computer, it's there for all to see.
I've decided something Troubled. I love you. How are you doing today?
Yes, I've mentioned before that whoever bandies about such a statement cannot be trusted.
But the effect it seems to be having on you is the urge to make up your own explanations, based upon a post hypnotic suggestion. Thereby you would have to be assuming...or what are you calling it?
I have had many near misses that could have resulted in death. Just thinking about some of them can makes me cringe. I once looked up just in time to avert a head-on collision. I don't know why I was compelled to look up at that moment. And I assume nothing...until concrete further evidence proves anything conclusive.
Even once, I'd consider it proof enough for me that something outside of this plane of existence intervened on my behalf. That is assuming that I heard a voice in my head other than my own thoughts, that knew something I could not have known.
Thanks Emile. I honestly don't know what I would think in that kind of a situation, if I hadn't grown up already believing.
Really? So a single coincidental incidence would have you jump to that conclusion?
Don't try and start truly discussing now Troubled, you were doing such a good job of trolling.
What if there were 100 'coincidental' occurrences?
What if the sky was purple?
So many "what ifs"
That 'what if' has happened to me.
You attack Emile for discussing, ridiculing her for saying she would believe if it happened once(a 'what if' question), but then you can't acknowledge a 'what if' question that your argument doesn't hold up against.
I completely agree with Greek One. I wouldn't attribute it to a god. But, I'm sorry. I don't doubt my sanity. If a voice chirped up and said 'Pull over' moments before I would have been squished by a tractor trailer, and I was alone in the car; I'd be stumped for an alternative solution.
Edit: if it makes you feel better, if a voice did nothing but identify itself as God, I'd head to the hospital for a cat scan.
It's when those voices chirp up and nothing happens that makes the single event look exactly like 'guesswork' as opposed to leaving one feeling stumped.
I once placed the business end of a stethoscope against my forehead and the voices in my head came through loud and clear.
I obviously amoung the few, if placed in that exact cicurmstance....would believe it was divine intervention.
I do believe in God.
I have never 'heard' voices in my head before.
And the ONE voice that I do hear commands me or urges me to PULL OVER NOW, just a tractor trailer would have smashed me like a bug, I would have jumped out of the car, and kissed the ground and sang God's praises. Sometimes he does have to speak to be heard.
God spoke ALL the time in the bible, even in dreams. I would not question my sanity one bit. I would value my life 100% % more that God chose ME to save, he still saw purpose and value in me.
Do you reckon God's voice could speak to the poor starving dying children, and just point them to some morsels of food? Why is this baffling belief so inconsistent? Or does God just find no value in these pitiful third world children?
I can't explain third world starving children. Or children dying of cancer, or abuse and neglect, war and poverty. I am not saying I am BETTER than anyone else because of MY miracle. I agree with you, it seems inconsistent. But everything is part of His plan. And His plan for me AT that particular time was to save me. Maybe I was still needed to hear a child tell me that they were being hurt at home, then I'd be run over by a bus.
I wish we could edit.
AS a tractor trailer.
I just have faith. In this hypothetical situation,if I'd ignored "the Voice" and kept driving and been killed.....I wouldn't be alive to tell anyone I was warned and ignored.
Then again, if I abided, and moved over, and lived, I'd be called crazy for hearing voices in my head. And then be criticized for calling it anything other than being lucky.
Having secure faith allows me to believe fully that was divine intervention. I too look back on times in my life when I was not as faithful, and see how God's hand was there protecting me. Or how events unfolded in such an unbelievable way no other explanation could account for it except it being a "God Thing".
I think it makes God sad how many times he HAS protected his children, and then they want PROOF, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION that it was him. I mean, a FREAKING VOICE tells me to pull over right before I would have been smushed dead? God has a plan for everything and it is not our place to question, but just have FAITH. Faith is what I call it.
Seems more like delusion.
Of course, none of what you say about your faith explains every single person who was killed in an accident, nor does is show any respect to them whatsoever.
No, you are not special and no, gods do not protect you or anyone else.
In other words having faith allows you to be delusional, without even looking at ANY other more rational possibilities?
Could it be that you have already ignored any other possibilities even exist, because your delusion has prompted you to? Hence, creating a false default.
Very irrational, unscientific, whimsical, naive and extremely narrow worldview .
So sayeth the sheep.
I just don't get how non-believers think we are 'delusional'! I mean, I carry on a normal life, do normal things, do not throw my Christianity in anyones face, I am a sinner, Ilove and care for my pets, but mention I am faithful, and I am a raging mad, delusional maniac.
One day one group will be proved wrong. Unfortunetly we can't come back and say, "I told you so".
You all seriously sound like you would advocate for me to take a pill to treat this 'delusion',
You've been indoctrinated to believe in a religion. That is the reason why you carry on a normal life, except when it comes to your beliefs, which are seen as entirely delusional.
Break the cycle of indoctrination and that delusion shall pass.
You assume everyone has been indoctrinated... what about people who don't grow up in any religion, and have these experiences? Where is the indoctrination?
"Would you consider that divine intervention, coincidence, or a psychic experience?"
Coincidence. Coincidences happen constantly, if we care to notice. A psychic phenomenon is also possible, but far, far less likely than coincidence. Nevertheless, the psychic or 6th sense phenomenon is still far, far more likely than a supernatural force. And even a general supernatural force is far, far more likely than God specifically.
"If this happened to you relatively frequently(a voice/feeling keeping you from danger) would it hold more weight?"
If it happened frequently enough, I would probably go with the psychic explanation. That is still a naturalistic explanation, and does not require any supernatural whatsoever.
But again, this kind of thing does happen extremely often. There are words and thoughts constantly passing through our brains silently. Thus, simply by the law of large numbers, such an intersection of thought and event is bound to happen sooner or later. It's just that normally we don't notice it, or we notice it only in the kind of jarring, life-changing circumstance you describe. Such a jarring experience will induce selective memory, it may highlight specific memories that otherwise we would not have noticed, or we may even invent memories.
Sorry to take the winds of wonder and mystery out of your sails, but it is what it is. Just psychology, neuroscience and probability.
The problem with the probability argument, is that there would have to be a substantial number of similar events where nothing happened.
I'm sorry, but I've never 'pulled over the car' because of a voice/feeling and not had something happen. Yeah, I might have had thoughts of pulling the car over at times, and not done it, but those were clearly my own thoughts.
What I am talking about is something that doesn't fit the natural thought process.
It's interesting that you would place psychic experience as more likely than God. Thanks for sharing secularist
That was your choice to not move the car. The "voice" wasn't loud enough or whatever.
In any case, we are still very ignorant on the human brain and how it works, and it is not strictly impossible for there to be "extra sensory perception" of some kind. However, the main problem with the concept of God (and to a lesser degree the supernatural generally) is the inherent logical flaws.
I will give you another explanation to chew on that is much more likely than God: aliens. Perhaps there are more intelligent life forms from beyond this world that are screwing with the person's brain. That too is a naturalistic explanation, requiring no alternate realities, planes of existence, angels, gods or demons.
eeks. i believe that there are other forms of life out and about, and have even seen footage I can't explain away, but to believe they are sending messages to my brain is farfetched for me.
Sure, but not as far fetched as saying that a God is sending messages to your brain.
I just disagree, based upon my many examples above. Could it be intuition,sure, could it be a gut feeling, absolutly. But the poster specifically added a voice instructucted me to move over.
my belief in God leads me to assume yes that he interviened.
You are free to disagree, but the facts are facts. People hear strange voices all the time, normally they are temporary hallucinations, which is actually more common than you might think depending on the person's health, fatigue, foreign chemicals in their body (such as drugs, alcohol, medications, etc).
If you are reading this silently to yourself without speaking it out loud, then you are currently hearing a voice in your head. Our internal dialogue and thoughts are voices in our head. As I already said, a jarring experience of the type in the OP will call up that kind of "voice" and create a very strong memory.
Your belief in God leads you to assume he intervened; if you believed in aliens, then that would lead you to assume aliens intervened. Seems arbitrary.
It's more reasonable to say that aliens are sending messages to your brain than it is to say God is sending messages to your brain.
Why? We have more evidence for God than aliens.
That is entirely false. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any gods.
However, scientists have found star systems with planets that are very good candidates for supporting life. That is at the very least, a shred of evidence, if nothing else.
No, having a planet similar to our own isn't evidence of alien life in any way, shape, or form.
If you want to say that this kind of planet could 'generate' life, then you still have the problem of science never being able to show life springing up out of inorganic material. If we can't show that it is possible for life to just come about, then no 'perfect condition' planet can be evidence of life.
I didn't say "similar to our own", you did.
Yes, your invisible magical super being has designated earth as the only planet in the entire universe to create life.
Your ignorance does not preclude evidence.
Can you link me to one scientific study that proves that life can emerge out of inorganic material?
Just one, as you seem to know that it is a scientifically sound principle.
In addition to what A Troubled Man said, the existence of God violates logic in a number of ways, and the existence of aliens does not.
No, the existence of God doesn't necessarily violate logic or our understanding of nature.
Here comes the "Believers Dictionary" again providing yet another twisted version of 'logic'
As I recall Troubled, I challenged you to show just ONE of my personal religious beliefs to be directly contradicted by science, and you were not able to do so.
Obviously that is another whole discussion. If you are interested you can check my hub on the proofs for the existence of God:
http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/Pr … nce-of-God
My views are pretty much covered there. Suffice to say that all of the arguments for the existence of God that have ever been developed logically fail for various reasons.
One small example of a logical bind that God causes is the paradox of omnipotence: can God create a stone so heavy even he cannot lift it? If yes, then he is not omnipotent. If no, then he is not omnipotent. Either way, he is not omnipotent and therefore not God.
'Omnipotent' is one of the words that is used to describe a word in another language. Very few words translate over perfectly from one language to another, especially languages so far removed from each other. The Hebrew word that is usually translated into almighty actually means most powerful, for example.
I'd like to discuss these with you... want to do it in the forum or shall I comment on your hubs?
Nevertheless, whatever was written in Hebrew thousands of years ago, the belief today is in an omnipotent entity. To say God is not "omnipotent" is to define God differently.
In any case, you are welcome to comment on my hubs. I find the forums awkward for an extended conversation.
It's just plain common sense, based upon science. But since you base your perception on your indoctrination, you have no need for science or common sense, in this matter.
Based on science?
Show me what scientific studies show that psychic abilities exist.
Nor do I rely on 'common sense'. There is nothing solid about common sense.
Common sense wouldn't have you think that solid granite is actually made up of more 'empty space' than matter. Common sense wouldn't say that a clock flying around the world will run faster than a clock on the ground(being perfectly similar clocks). Common sense isn't based on fact, it is based on perceptions.
There are, every single day, every single moment in which nothing happens.
They are ALL your own thoughts. Some are hits, many are misses.
There you go again, you know what's going on inside my head, all day, every day.
I can tell you very clearly, that these were not my own thoughts. I know what my thoughts sound and feel like, just like I know what my voice sounds like. But, surely you know better.
You see, I've never had one of those moments where nothing happened. So you are saying, I just HAPPEN to be reacting to my own thoughts, and each time those thoughts just HAPPEN to be predicting the future, and it just HAPPENS that I've never responded to one of those thoughts without something HAPPENING.
BTW, here is another plot twist to consider (not sure if someone already made this point):
Suppose you have 100 people who hear a voice in their head. The voice says "I am trying to protect you..." and then it says one of two things. To 50 people, the 2nd statement is "pull over" and to the other 50, the statement is "keep driving."
Now, the 50 who received the "pull over" command are saved, and the 50 who received the "keep driving" command are killed.
Will we ever hear of the voice in the 50 that were killed? No, because they are dead. We won't ever know what they heard in their head right before they died. But nevertheless, the voice was trying to protect them all.
This is something known as "survivor bias," because the survivors tell a skewed story, and we do not get the whole picture. The objective fact is that the chances of being saved by that voice are 50/50. But because of the survivor bias, we will assume that the voice was 100% accurate, a perfect score. The dead don't talk, and we only hear from the survivors.
I understand we are disagreeing, but bringing aliens into it, makes me add two more componets to your explanations, that I already have with my Lord.
1. They are here.
2. They are friendly enough to try to save my life
I know God is here
I know he would not want to see harm befall me if not part of his plan.
This is a blatant delusional statement, supported by nothing but your stubborn attachment to an absurd primitive dogma. Where is your proof?
You don't know anything of the sort. You are just regurgitating post hypnotic suggestions, based upon a ridiculous premise...and whimsical wishful thinking.
I think if that happened to me I would feel extremely lucky because that is exactly what I am. If you pay attention to your inner voice sometimes it constantly blurbs out stuff that seems like the message from the universe, but once you follow through with it you find out that it all exists in your mind. Once in a while my inner voice matched what was happening so I became excited, only to realize the chance of me getting the future right was relatively small.
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