Just the other day i was listening to the radio and the topic was the american election and one person running for the election question the role of state and the role of religion and it got me thinking if christ was to come back what are the chances he or she died at birth or was aborted i mean if he or she comes back he or she will hardly be born into riches and the chances are he or she would come back in a poor country were infant death is high and i know one of you will point out that he or she will come back fully grown but i think he or she will be born back into this world or reborn but what if he or she was already reborn but didnt make it let it be infant death or some other reason would he or she be reborn again or would we have missed our last chance at salvation???what do you think???
Interesting. I never thought of the second coming in that way, coming as a newborn. I just assumed it would be in the way Revelation described it, on a cloud or a dragon or whatever. If you subscribe to that.
There's no evidence that there was a first coming.
What, the whole of the New Testament is not evidence?
What evidence do you want? A picture? A shroud? A nail? They've all been done. Still you want more?
I guess it's true. You can't please everybody all the time.
Nope, not evidence, just a set of books written by men.
verifiable evidence without half a billion possible interpretations for what its proof of.
only proof that an artist made a picture.
Only proof that seamstresses exist, there are many shrouds ya know, nothing special there.
Proof of the iron age maybe, proof that carpentry exists also but nothing much more
Whats been done already? You have yet to offer any proof.
Stop claiming your beliefs are fact and simply share them as something you believe on faith and I will be happy enough. I may question why you have faith but thats not me being unhappy and unlikely if your faith is a personal matter you don't air in public.
@kirstenblog last heard that we r soon going to have second coming of NEO in matrix....i hope matrix viewers 2k yrs down the line dont confuse this movie with second testament.....
Just wait till they find the missing page of the bible
(the one that says, all people in this book are fictitious and any relation to people living or dead is purely coincidental)
But we enjoy sharing our faith and do accept Christ as truth because we believers have experienced the power of the gospel and the redemption of Christ.
I do not see anything amiss in presenting what we believe in a forum called Religion and Philosophy, however I do find it odd that someone would attempt to silence those beliefs in a forum called Religion and Philosophy.
I never bother to attend the atheists forums, (if they exist?) especially as I would normally expect to see some posts that would offend me, and the poor dears need somewhere they can fellowship without interruption from believers.
Why can that not be a two way street?
Who gave anyone the right to decide what is discussed or stated in the Religion and Philosophy forum?
Did I miss a ruling?
The problem is that you just can't keep it contained in these forums.
No the problem is that you don't understand that many people have come to know God through christian witness outside of these forums. 14 and counting for me that i know of.. People who are so very much happier. Do you wish all people to rage as you do? and not just be happy with their belief
That is so very selfish - do you not agree?
Thanks for the long winder reply, but you don't seem to know the difference between evidence and proof.
I gave evidence, (NT) NOT proof.
Show me proof that your wife loves you! (Not evidence) so you can illustrate it for a stupid like me
I think the First comming of Christ was a sucess. If anything I would say He was sent not to die but to declare Gods domain over Man and Goverments, and that fact alone, is why he was killed.
I am not sure there is any re-birth, but eternity in God everlasting, if you are of faith. (from the Heart not the Head)
I think we are ready, programed, to read to much human into the mind of a much vaster and exact God here. Also I think we need to seperate Paul from Jesus Christ, they are not the same mind set.
Christ is not supposed to come back in the same way he came the first time. According to the New Testament, he is not going to be born again. Instead, he will come again when no one expects it (in spite of those who supposedly have this figured out). He is supposed to return in the clouds, not as a baby.
Just like those caught up in religiosity in those day, they are expecting a christ to come and when he did come, who recognised him?
The nobody's ,the one ones who live life merely for the simplicity of it.
And the fat cats where are they, some of them are still waiting, hoping ,looking....but for what?
What already is right before their very nose yet they are unable to see.
But there is coming that will suit them according to their expectation....but it aint gonna bring Life.... but it is their final death for that christ is the death itself.
Isn't it a little too much trouble to repeat all these process?
There are no female deities.
A second coming is like a second time graduate of the Betty Ford Clinic, if it didn't work the first time, what are the odds for a second or more time success.
Hardly a deity if cannot control who and where one is born.
Fat chance...we won't get over that easy. It's called the "one step ahead you ploy"
Interesting you mention that because Jesus came into being exactly when and where he was supposed to - before the destruction of the temple and in jewish homeland.
"I will come as a thief in the night." He also said another was coming after him. I see revelation and the coming in the clouds as a poetic way of saying "in the mists of the future". God ALWAYS uses a material person, and Paul doesn't qualify for me as the "other". The Holy Spirit is to reveal all things to where no more mysteries remain, which Paul failed to do.
Please give Chapter and Verse where it says another is coming after Him?
And of course I don't believe He will be re-born as a baby again. No need to re-do the virgin birth; it was perfect just as it was.
I think he is referring to what John the baptist said, in which case, his reference is askew.
yah ... agreed sis. No reason to do the baby over again. God has already first hand experienced what is like to live in the flesh. As King that whole aspect will not be necessary to do over. Power dictates he will return the way he left - as a man.
Paul failed at nothing.
There will always be mysteries, we are human. Looking forward to knowledge to that degree is idol worship, where knowledge is valued above God himself - God frowns on that kind of appreciation.
Behold! i show you a mystery:
The gentile dispensation is different than the jewish dispensation but the same adherence to God's holiness apply to each and i don't mean by way of the Law of moses.
Interesting question....but i don't think we need second coming of Christ at first place....what did he achieve in his first coming?...He made few followers who in turned spread the word and Christianity became world conquerors...they colonized the world , enslaved people ...they went for witch hunting , had crusades....
If we holistically view , jesus's first coming was useless ...yes on paper it makes us feel good but in practice it means little.
@aka-dj correction ....i dont like waiting for super daddy concept to start with...though the concept is there in most religions and faiths...be it be oldest religion or young religions like Christianity...i can understand concept since it is human brain's creation and universal...but it does make human waiting , waiting , waiting and finally dying...right from paul generation to present ones , waiting for something super cool daddy's super hero son come....ppl end wait continues
human brains creating do not foretell the future. Bible prophecy alone should convince any serious reader of this books legitimacy. Brains do not create a story of a creator who made the world in a short period of time and then flooded it and brought a people, the weakest of all people on the planet and then took them into a desert and then took these unskilled warriors up against warring nations and defeated them, took their land, then inhabited prime country side only to be scattered because of a thing called uniquely to the bible - sin and then had a messiah - prophesied from genesis throughout the bible to be hung on a cross, rise and then promise to come back. No human brain can put together something like this especially over 4,000 yrs and through many (40) different authors.
Adam (covenant person) to abraham = 2,000yrs. Abraham (covenant person) to christ (covenant person) 2,000 yrs. 2,000 yrs is not a long time to God. 40 (testing) x 50 (jubilee)
Expect it when you least expect it. Its gotta happen in a jubilee year and probably around feast of trumpet - our september.
Nostradamus!!All prophesies are written or modified after the event.
human brain can't conceive stories?
Flood - The epic of Gilgamesh!!
Heard of the Indian epic Mahabharata, which is almost 5x the size of bible and Ramayana another epic which is the same size of bible. Bible is a collection stories over centuries, while Ramayana is written by a single person and Mahabharata is written in a single century. These two are the greatest and largest epics in the history of man, in comparison bible is just a children's book.
A 'children's book' that a full 1/3 of the world population are guided and live by?
Whatever drives your obsession with trying to discredit Christ, it's not healthy.
@aguasilver ...just having christian name , being born in christian family doesnot make one take bible literally...and this applies to most religions..
if people start taking bible seriously and literally , we would get stuck in harry potter like stories...we wont research , we wont invent ...we would be waiting like pauls , waiting till we die ...dangerous situation for mankind...it is good that only handful of population actually waits for christ to come back...for rest it is business as usual...
If people are led by fairy tales, even if it is the majority, they are just idiots.
And, is the validity of a claim based on how many support it? Then you should also consider the fact that there are a thousand sects in Christianity each with a different interpretation of bible and Islam is the religion with the maximum number of followers with the same belief.
Discredit Christ? That'll be a Good joke! I can neither discredit nor validate imaginary people.
Now if bible was indeed describing a man who really lived, I'll never give credit to an illegitimate person who mixed with goons and whores and who thought diseases are caused by devils.
how about government conspiracies?
What exactly are people led by
Darwinism being a fact and placed in the text books
Quantum physics which is really just mathematical forecasting
The nightly news, hand picked stories, certainly not the cream of the crop or even the relevant or really important stuff.
When saying that the bible is a fairy tale one needs to look at their world and realize that there are many fairy tales being told - but the bible is not one of them.
As to Jesus thinking that diseases are caused by devils. I am quite very sure he did not believe this, but can you imagine Jesus saying "be healed of your bi-polarism" "you with the anarism, come forth". Or do we see evidence of Jesus telling some layman astronomer, "psst, the sun is the center of the universe and the earth travels around it". You see Jesus did not come to change their culture or society except for the area of his concern, bringing Israel back to God according to the dictates of the gospel. If Jesus had said. "hey tie a key to a kite string and see how electricity works", well this would upset much of the time line of what is now history. Jesus did not come to further medicine or science or thrust their culture years ahead in the future, development wise: He came with a purpose, he used the language of the times and he was very cautious about how he affected their development as a nation.
Food for thought
Good that said quantum physics too.... Bible is a fairy tale, just like any other and others have less violence.
There is nothing called Darwinism. If you are talking about evolution, it is a rational theory.
I think before jumping over a cliff, you use reason and not faith.
and i do not jump off cliffs
Darwins theories are not rational they are conjectional
when darwin looked through the early primitive 500x microscope he saw basically a blob and he guessed that inside that blob would be a simple organism. Guess what.. we found immensely complicated machinery working with pre-written instructions as to how to function. He had no idea about dna or rna or any of the structure of the cell and how it functions. He guessed. Just as he guessed that fossil evidence to alleviate his cambrian dilemma would turn up... and guess what... 150 yrs later no fossil evidence turned up to support his theory.
Just like millers experiement... down the tubes.
Yet this fairy tale darwinism is being taught in schools because its opposite to creationism. Science wanted an alternative and darwin made one up.
Thank you for responding to the post without responding to the post. Your opinion is bookmarked.
With a little faith you'd be able to do that, won't you? Why let reason stop you?
Have no idea what a theory is, have you?
Dishonesty knows no bounds with believers who don't understand the very subject matter they dismiss simply because they believe it's "opposite to creationism."
Of course, they only believe in one particular creation fable, themselves, and dismiss all the others, too, for the very same reasons.
That's odd, I was criticized in another thread by Emile, in which YOU agreed with her that I insisted Christians do exactly that. And now, you're telling me they are guided by the Bible and live by it?
The hypocrisy here knows no bounds.
Yes the conundrum of christian hypocrisy is a stumbling block to the unsaved. I can be guided by a car repair manual and still mess up an engine restoration. I can follow a map and still not arrive at my destination on time or at all - and these are two minor examples of how errors can easily happen. Now you wouldn't call the mechanic a hypocrite - you might call him a lousy mechanic but what if the other 17 engine restorations had turned out perfectly? You see, he is not a hypocrite mechanic at all but a good mechanic who made a mistake.
The problem with people of your apparent anger is that by criticizing and ridicule you set up a standard that you yourself are terrified to follow. When you make a mistake or willingly cheat on your taxes you think nothing of it, but when someone confessing christ makes a mistake you slam down the gavel and pronounce sentence.. hypocrite! you say and say loudly.
But this is not the case with christians who may fail at certain tasks but complete others with flying colors - each christian has their strengths and weaknessess for they are people, human beings. The difference is when God convicts them of their offence does anyone see the christian going back to the tax office and confessing their error? but still tagged with hypocrite we now see that the one stamping the label is in serious error. What people of desperate rage seem to forget is that christianity may well take a lifetime to accomplish - but make no mistake - a lifetime they have and as they attempt to conform to the image of God, God respects them and helps them.
I am reminded of romans 8:1
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
and clearly judicial maniacs who cry hypocrite are unaware of this scripture as they seek to condemn a christian.
Making mistakes and outright contradictions are two different things. If the mechanic stated emphatically that he used the manual step by step and swore that every other mechanic use a manual, but instead did the engine restoration without it, that would be hypocrisy.
<--- my apparent anger
So, you cheat on your taxes, too? No, they aren't making a mistake, they are contradicting themselves. Huge difference.
Oh look, you're being a hypocrite, again, quoting the same book you don't follow yourself.
Yes vague and broad and twisted interpretations by his fan club
"In the place very near not far from Venus,
The two greatest ones of Asia and of Africa,
From the Rhine and Hister they will be said to have come,
Cries, tears at Malta and the Ligurian side".
This is one of the more popular quatrains; it is said to describe Hitler (Hister) at a meeting with Mussolini in which they made plans for Italy for formally enter the Second World War. The problem here is that Hister is a term used in the time of Nostradamus to describe the Danube river. It does seem to describe a war that has some relation to Germany, but there is no way of connecting this to Hitler or the Second World War. In this text there is clearly the common vagueness that can easily be attributed to all his predictions and like the others more is read into the text than is allowed.
"Lost, found, hidden for so long a time,
the pastor will be honored as a demigod:
Before the Moon finishes its full period
he will be dishonored by other winds".
"The young lion will overcome the old one
on the field of battle in single combat:
He will put out his eyes in a cage of gold:
Two fleets one, then to die a cruel death."
See how vague these supposed prophecies are:
Now lets see how God handles prophecy:
1 Kings 20:22 And the prophet came to the king of Israel, and said unto him, Go, strengthen thyself, and mark, and see what thou doest: for at the return of the year the king of Syria will come up against thee.
1 Kings 20:26 And it came to pass at the return of the year, that Benhadad numbered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.
Shall we discuss messianic prophecies?
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalms 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psalms 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
I don't need to go any further although i could, the bible is ripe with prophecies and fulfillment of prophecies that are quite explicit and actually name, names and place dates.
So nostradamus fails to measure up to the God of the universe.
All prophesies are written or modified after the event.
Without proof of that you only have your opinion. Do you think that God would lie about prophecy or that he would allow the book about him to be tainted by altered prophecy? When a prophet of God speaks, it is the word of the Lord.
[i[human brain can't conceive stories? [/i]
Human brains can't conceive of a story like what i posted. It is not logical to assume that Christ as seen in the passover blood on the posts of the doors of the hebrews would symbolize christ so very long ago. That Abraham would have to offer up his SON for sacrifice as Jesus did thousands of years later. This story, about God, from the beginning of everything also describing the end of everything is not of human conception.
Flood - The epic of Gilgamesh!!
I guess you missed my post about the lame second hand story telling of a flood that certainly must have occured since nearby secular witness testified of a big flood. But really, a boat that cannot float and other obvious mythical entries cannot compare to the first hand account of such detail and sober recollection as would only come from the one who made such a flood. The date doesn't matter either, because the flood happened but the events by Moses were not written down until after they came out of egypt. What do you think moses was doing up on Sinai for 40 days? and then a second trip again.
Heard of the Indian epic Mahabharata,
Read about the mythical story here:
http://www.dharmakshetra.com/literature … arata.html
and tell me you take this seriously but cannot believe the bible.
Ramayana another epic
contains no prophecies
none of the people in it can be verified
it has no connection with geography
it has no timeline.
In essence a story that cannot be placed to actual facts and dates and is not supported in any secular documents, its kinda like tolkiens lord of the rings.
Again the sober reporting of reigning kings and dates and times and places and archeological findings verify historical accuracy of the bible and again in the Ramayana there are no prophecies.
Bible is a collection stories over centuries, while Ramayana is written by a single person and Mahabharata is written in a single century.
This is not evidence for their divine inspiration and it certainly is not evidence against the bible. Would it not be more difficult for authors hundreds, even thousands of years apart to write concise and flowing texts. Prophecies in just about every book, some are majorly prophetic. Ezekiels vision of New Jerusalem in amazing detail... sorry but there are many good fantasy books and sci fi but none of them equal the bible and certainly not these mythical recants.
These two are the greatest and largest epics in the history of man, in comparison bible is just a children's book.
I think i have skimmed the surface of why these epic books of dubious historical relation are indeed childrens books while the bible acurately portrays a peoples journey throughout time and with amazing precision.
you can have your opinion but really what does the content speak.
Vague prophesies, just like that of nostradamuses which can be interpreted either way. " For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalms 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psalms 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. "
Not mentioned is the name of jesus, or when it is going to happen, crucifixation... cannot even say it is a prophesy by reading the psalms. You just took some words out of context to say it is prophesy. And again as there was no jesus, it is very easy to fulfill the prophesy. What difference does it make from Nostradamus?
Yes, the so called OT prophesies are written only after the event, there is no manuscripts that were before the events. And there is nothing to suggest that the OT prophesies were fulfilled in NT, as all were misquotes or out of context quotes. And there is nothing to suggest that a man named jesus, as in NT ever lived.
No prophesies in ramayana? read it!! (I'm not saying they are true prophesies either, it just like the bible) Writers who write after the vent can write the prophesies.
I don't want a summary of mahabhara, I've read Mahabharata. I said man can make such stories and bible is a silly one compared to the great epics.
And if I want to write foolishness and mistakes in bible it will make up another bible.
And for your information the jews were never in Egypt, that too is a hooked up story.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfast toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Matthew 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Matthew 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
I see no reference to the second coming of Christ as a new born.
Jesus accepted the role of suffering servant because the Jewish nation rejected him but his return is as the role they expected, king of kings.
He ascended, he will descend into Jerusalem again when the nation says:
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.
Some say the book of revelation is fulfilled but there are parts of revelation and parts of the gospels that are not yet fulfilled. You should read all of the parable in matthew 21, Jesus spoke this before he was crucified.
by pisean2823115 years ago
why do you think world needs savior?..are human race totally incapable species that it didnt learn from first coming and requires second coming?
by jayahr5 years ago
Malachi 4;5,65 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their...
by pisean2823116 years ago
i have heard that there would be second coming of christ according to two big religions..when is that suppose to happen?
by jerami5 years ago
For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man acording to his works
by David Steffy3 years ago
I have started this thread specifically for CJ Sledgehammer, SwordofManticore, Lybrah, Disappearinghead, and anyone else who can respectfully examine the scriptures in the light of this day and have a Godly discussion...
by seyiari6 years ago
Do you believe in the second coming of Jesus christ or not?
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